Summary8 min read

Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Pat Benatar & Neil Giraldo
Date: March 19, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan
Guests: Pat Benatar & Neil Giraldo

Overview

In this deeply engaging and candid episode, Billy Corgan sits down with rock legends Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo to explore their enduring creative and personal partnership. The conversation covers their Rust Belt upbringings, the evolution of their music and relationship, the business and societal challenges faced—especially regarding sexism in the music industry—and their ongoing tensions, dreams, and debates as groundbreaking artists. The tone is warm, honest, and occasionally fiery, offering an intimate window into the lives and philosophies of two icons whose vitality, rebelliousness, and artistic commitment remain undimmed.

Main Themes

Creative and Personal Partnership: How Benatar and Giraldo forged and sustained their unique collaboration.
Women and Sexism in the Music Industry: Pat’s challenges and triumphs as a woman, mother, and artist.
Artistic Evolution: Their process of pushing boundaries musically, embracing diversity, and resisting commercial pressures.
Legacy and Modernity: Wrestling with the meaning of relevance, new creation, and authenticity in a changed music landscape.
Catholic and Midwestern Roots: How upbringing shaped their values, ambitions, and sense of rebellion.
Family and Perspective: Their experiences as parents, grandparents, and guardians of their own story.
Endurance and Authenticity: The ongoing importance of perseverance and truth in artistry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Upbringing and Rebellion

[00:34–02:44]

The trio bond over shared Roman Catholic, Rust Belt backgrounds.
Discussion of the cultural effects of growing up in Catholic, Midwestern families; the role of tradition, music in church, and gentle rebellion.
Pat highlights the shift in the Church in the 1970s: “All they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio.” (Pat Benatar, 00:06)

2. From Ordinary Jobs to Dream Chasing

[04:52–07:48]

Pat recounts her early days as a bank teller in the conservative South, defiantly undermining dress codes and stereotypes: “So when they told me I had to wear a dress, I wore a leopard dress.” (Pat Benatar, 05:27)
The journey from workaday life to pursuing music—with no “star” ambitions at first.
Neil shares how his Sicilian family shaped his initial musical path; the expectation was to play accordion with his sister, not to be a rock star.

3. Finding Each Other and the Sound

[13:46–30:48]

Pat describes her move back to New York, refusing to be a “big fish in a small pond.” Her pivotal open-mic at Catch a Rising Star and the myth about Liza Minnelli’s influence (“Total fallacy... It was what she was doing inside this door.” (Pat Benatar, 15:01)).
Struggled with industry expectations: “You should be Olivia Newton-John. Girls don’t sell out Madison Square Garden.” (Pat Benatar, 16:41)
Neil’s musical approach: Inspired to create original music, focused on production and songwriting over virtuoso performance.

4. The Genesis of the Benatar-Giraldo Collaboration

[27:21–44:59]

Pat’s search for a "powerful bench"—a musical foundation she could sing on top of, and the struggle to find a musical partner who “got it.”
Mike Chapman, recognizing the potential synergy, introduces Neil as “her guy.”
Their first musical meeting, Pat’s instant reaction: “He hasn’t played a note. He turns around and he’s got the guitar... he hits one chord, and I’m like, that was it.” (Pat Benatar, 32:08)
Discussion of their immediate but restrained personal chemistry, respecting the gravity of mixing business and romance—a partnership built on trust and profound musical dialogue.

5. Building a New Identity and Musical Landscape

[38:01–44:59]

Early records composed mainly of covers; “We Live For Love” marks their first significant original effort.
Their sound: A distinctive blend of rock energy and clean, articulate guitar to showcase Pat’s voice. Neil’s minimalist approach: “Nobody’s going to be walking around singing guitar parts. You listen to the vocal.” (Neil Giraldo, 43:15)
Pat describes Neil’s generosity: “He made himself last all the time. It was always about the song. It was always about the performance of the song.” (Pat Benatar, 44:48)

6. Breakthrough, Backlash, and Social Impact

[49:00–55:00]

Writing and impact of “Hell is for Children”: how a newspaper article inspired a song addressing child abuse—a topic rarely addressed in mainstream pop at the time.
The backlash: religious protests and boycotts, but also an outpouring of messages from fans who felt seen.
Notable moment: “The lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.” (Billy Corgan, 49:31)

7. Iconoclasm, Industry Tensions, and Artistic Integrity

[55:01–61:09]

Neil takes on production roles, pushing for a broader creative palette: “I didn’t want to be 8th note guitar driven songs anymore.”
Discussing the constant tension with record labels about artistic direction; inventive “console tricks” to pacify label execs who didn’t understand studio magic.
Pat’s searing account of motherhood in a male-driven industry: “There was no handbook for this...It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records.” (Pat Benatar, 06:06, 67:50)

8. Gender, Relationships, and Public Perception

[61:23–64:49]

The couple maintain a quiet, respected public profile—by design—despite media attempts to paint Neil as a Svengali.
Neil’s outside production work: enduring friendships and collaborations (e.g. Rick Springfield, John Waite).

9. Shifting Output, Family, and Industry Change

[65:56–72:15]

The duo’s output slowed after 1985, largely due to new parenthood and lack of industry support for working mothers.
Record company pressure versus the need for compassion and downtime: “If you would have given me six months. If you would have just been a little bit kinder and more compassionate…” (Pat Benatar, 71:48)

10. On Not Releasing New Albums: The Modern Paradox

[72:19–81:02]

Debating the value/point of new albums today. Pat’s skepticism: “The amount of time and consideration and everything else it is to give out that much art that no one is going to hear.” (Pat Benatar, 73:42)
Billy argues for the value of authentic, current work regardless of industry models.
Neil’s creative fire versus Pat’s wary pragmatism about distribution, marketing, and legacy: “Their only reason to do anything is financial, and my only reason to do anything is artistic.” (Pat Benatar, 77:31)

11. Philosophy, Perseverance, and What’s Next

[81:22–94:44]

Billy, Neil, and Pat reflect on the unique position of legacy artists in today’s culture: “Perseverance...has become more powerful than the catalog.” (Billy Corgan, 83:05)
Pat’s refusal to “go backwards” musically: “I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest.” (Pat Benatar, 83:29)
Neil’s challenge-seeking spirit: “I like to challenge myself and explain to people what...rock and roll music could be, not what we know it to be.” (Neil Giraldo, 87:10)
The continued tension and affection in their working relationship—Pat’s snarl, Neil’s enthusiasm, and the “torture” of pushing each other creatively.
Recent collaborations: writing for a musical version of Scissorhands (“Beautiful Weirdos”).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Partnership:
“We were equal partners. She had the record deal, but we were equal partners in the fact that we were anything... It was a pretty strange thing. But when the A&R says, ‘I’m glad this is going to work, you can do anything you want.’ That was the word. Anything you want.”
— Neil Giraldo, [35:17]
On Sexism & Motherhood:
“There was no handbook for this...they didn't care about that I had a newborn. And all they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records.”
— Pat Benatar, [06:06], [67:50]
On the Impact of “Hell is for Children”:
“The lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.”
— Billy Corgan, [49:31]

“[The song] happened when we were in New York...reading. There was a serial article that came out in the Times for a couple of weekends. Neither of us had ever heard about this happening...I just start writing. Like, I write, I just write. I write, I write. And...we handed it over to Spider...can you make the pain in these words happen with that guitar?”
— Pat Benatar, [50:28]
On Artistic Integrity:
“Nobody’s going to be walking around singing guitar parts. You listen to the vocal. That’s the most important thing.”
— Neil Giraldo, [43:15]

“Their only reason to do anything is financial, and my only reason to do anything is artistic.”
— Pat Benatar, [77:31]
On Endurance & Legacy:
“Somehow the people that have earned some sort of respect, organic respect maybe is the right word...now that I look back, I realize that your voice...has an authenticity that has lasted my life. And something about that voice back in the mix is more important to them than whether or not they like the song.”
— Billy Corgan, [84:11]
On Creative Tension:
“Now I have to do pyrotechnics, calisthenics, and everything else that ends in an ICS...Don’t you see the compliment? He believes you can do it, though!”
— Pat Benatar & Billy Corgan, [94:01]–[94:17]

Notable Timestamps

[00:06, 67:50] – Pat’s story of violence in the studio due to sexism/industry pressures.
[15:01] – Pat’s Liza Minnelli epiphany (and subsequent myth-busting).
[27:21] – The search for the “real” rock sound and the beginning of the Benatar-Giraldo partnership.
[32:08] – The instant lightning of hearing Neil play the first chord.
[49:31] – Billy’s confession on the impact of “Hell is for Children.”
[67:50–69:04] – The cost of motherhood and the industry’s lack of support.
[77:31] – Pat draws the line on industry motivations vs. art.
[83:05] – Perseverance discussed as more powerful than legacy.
[92:05–93:16] – Pat admits to being “so snarly right now” and Neil talks about recent creative challenges.

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in musical and personal fortitude. Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo embody an ideal of creative partnership and resilience—fiercely loyal to each other and to their pursuit of uncompromising artistic truth. They display keen self-awareness about their roles as icons in a changed landscape, honest about the struggles and dismissive of mere nostalgia or industry games. If you’ve ever loved their music, this conversation will deepen your appreciation; if you haven’t, their passion, humor, and frankness provide a rare, inspiring window into what it means to make art that endures.

Essential listening for anyone interested in music, creativity, gender, artistic evolution, and the power of lasting partnership.

End of Summary

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Transcript991 lines

[00:00]
Interviewer
That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.
[00:05]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, no. Oh, good.
[00:06]
Interviewer
Thank you for that.
[00:07]
Pat Benatar
There was no handbook for this, okay? They didn't care. All they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records.
[00:22]
Neil Giraldo
Were you there?
[00:23]
Pat Benatar
I had conquered all that boys clip and everything else. But this next part, I don't know. This is something else altogether.
[00:35]
Interviewer
So correct me if I'm wrong. Are we all Roman Catholics?
[00:39]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[00:40]
Pat Benatar
Raised? Yes.
[00:42]
Neil Giraldo
Raised, yes.
[00:42]
Interviewer
Latin masses?
[00:43]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[00:44]
Pat Benatar
Yes. Polish and Latin.
[00:46]
Neil Giraldo
Lot of incense.
[00:48]
Interviewer
Jesus on the cross.
[00:49]
Neil Giraldo
On the cross. Stations of the Cross.
[00:51]
Pat Benatar
Oh, yeah. Confession.
[00:53]
Interviewer
So I feel like we have some kindred understanding. Of course, we're both Rust Belt Midwesterners.
[00:58]
Neil Giraldo
That's correct. Correct. In the pew, I had my mother to the left, my sister. In the end, my mother, myself, my father. My father's tone deaf. My mother could sing, and I would be having vertigo when the incense frankincense would go on, and I'd be going, oh, my God. And, you know, one pitch and no pitch. That was pretty.
[01:16]
Pat Benatar
You went to Catholic school?
[01:17]
Neil Giraldo
I sure did.
[01:19]
Pat Benatar
Our kids did, too. I did not. I went to public school.
[01:23]
Interviewer
Yes. I just. I just. I saw that note on you guys, and I thought, okay, we gotta start here because it sort of defines, I think, everything that we get into the
[01:32]
Neil Giraldo
Midwest and Roman Catholic.
[01:33]
Interviewer
It might have something to do with rebellion or.
[01:35]
Pat Benatar
Yes.
[01:36]
Interviewer
I don't really.
[01:36]
Pat Benatar
Are you the same. Are you as close to the same age as we are?
[01:39]
Interviewer
I'm 57.
[01:40]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, no, we're 50.
[01:42]
Pat Benatar
So we're a lot older than you.
[01:44]
Interviewer
Well, we'll get to how I know how I know both of you.
[01:47]
Pat Benatar
I was just gonna ask you about, like, did you go to church and the.
[01:50]
Interviewer
I didn't go to Catholic school.
[01:52]
Pat Benatar
No. But you went to church, I'm assuming.
[01:54]
Interviewer
My stepmother was a Roman Catholic. What's cool about the Roman Catholic Church that we went to? This would have been about, like, 73, 74. They realized that they weren't getting young parishioners, so they took, like, kind of a side building and they set up, like, the young, cool priests.
[02:10]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[02:11]
Interviewer
And they started doing, like, day by day.
[02:13]
Pat Benatar
We did that. Yeah.
[02:13]
Interviewer
And I remember thinking, this is so cool, because now. And the priest would make jokes about the Super Bowl.
[02:18]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. That's right.
[02:19]
Interviewer
Like, wow, a priest is talking about the Super Bowl. He's giving a prediction on the game.
[02:22]
Neil Giraldo
Yep.
[02:23]
Interviewer
So you felt like I was the Cool priest.
[02:24]
Neil Giraldo
But we had the same thing. Absolutely.
[02:27]
Interviewer
Really?
[02:27]
Neil Giraldo
And I. I remember my mother saying. Yeah, well, that you start. All of a sudden you had a guitar player on stage, and they would be. You know, the songs would change, and my mother never liked it. Sure. It came later, you know, like with
[02:38]
Pat Benatar
our kids, but not me.
[02:39]
Neil Giraldo
No, no. It happened when I was like, 15 or something. 14.
[02:43]
Interviewer
Day by day. That was the big one.
[02:44]
Pat Benatar
Yes.
[02:45]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[02:46]
Interviewer
Okay. Actually, let's start here, because I want to talk about your children's book. Tell me, because I want to write a children's book, so I'm jealous.
[02:52]
Pat Benatar
Oh, you should. It's so fun.
[02:54]
Neil Giraldo
What is? Grandparents book. Okay, so it's not. Yeah. We didn't do the children. We did grandchildren. Because as you will find out, if you have grandchildren, everything they say about them is true.
[03:05]
Interviewer
Okay, can you give me an example?
[03:07]
Neil Giraldo
I'll give you an example. When. When your children are born, you're having a great time, you love your children, and you think it can never get any better. But then grandbabies come and you go, how did this happen? My sister told me about it. I couldn't believe it. And when we had them, I went. She was right.
[03:20]
Interviewer
Is it the notion that you get to kind of, like, parachute in and parachute out?
[03:24]
Pat Benatar
But that's not even.
[03:25]
Neil Giraldo
But there's this connection of love that's so powerful.
[03:27]
Pat Benatar
This other thing with them, they're not your physical. Like, you didn't have them. They love you so much. It's, like, ridiculous.
[03:34]
Neil Giraldo
It's insane.
[03:35]
Pat Benatar
And, like, you're their favorite person on earth, and they're never mad at you. Like, your kids get mad at you and stuff, but not your grandchildren.
[03:42]
Neil Giraldo
They're the best.
[03:43]
Interviewer
That's. My grandparents were like my rock in my turbulent youth.
[03:47]
Pat Benatar
So we wrote a book. It's called My Grandma and Grandpa Rock.
[03:52]
Interviewer
So are you the guys, the characters or. So I don't know anything about the context of this.
[03:56]
Neil Giraldo
Yes. We begin. We're the characters. And then we explain all the diversity, all the different grandmas and grandpas and what their names are and what they do for a living and all that stuff.
[04:06]
Pat Benatar
The concept is that our grandchildren are saying, my grandma and grandpa rock, but we're saying in the book that we bet your grandmas and grandpas rock, too. And then we show all the different ways that other people that are grandparents.
[04:21]
Interviewer
So whose idea was it?
[04:23]
Pat Benatar
Us together.
[04:24]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. And they just came to us. You like the idea, said, sure. Here's a question for you. What do your children call you?
[04:31]
Interviewer
Daddy.
[04:31]
Neil Giraldo
Daddy. Yeah, we're Papa. Because Italian's a silhouette, so it's Papa. So even the grandbabies call me Papa, not Grandma.
[04:38]
Interviewer
Is she known of that?
[04:39]
Pat Benatar
No, she didn't do anything.
[04:41]
Neil Giraldo
She didn't do anything like that. But when she was reading the book, the oldest one, she was looking, she goes, she's reading. She and Grandpa, she goes, you're not. It should be Papa. So that's kind of cool.
[04:52]
Pat Benatar
That's fun.
[04:53]
Interviewer
So, okay, I'm gonna start with you. Bank teller, was that. So you were bank. Is it Virginia, right? You're bank teller.
[05:03]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, when I was. I got married the first time. Really young.
[05:06]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[05:07]
Pat Benatar
Because I just.
[05:08]
Interviewer
You as a bank teller, I just. It seems like such a good way to start.
[05:12]
Neil Giraldo
That's a good thing.
[05:14]
Pat Benatar
Well, it was great being in the south because, you know, I was wearing a leopard dress, and, you know, we had to wear a dress.
[05:22]
Interviewer
This is around 75.
[05:24]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, like 70. No, early two.
[05:27]
Neil Giraldo
Two.
[05:28]
Pat Benatar
So I was like, 29, 20 years old. I'm wearing a leopard dress, and we had to wear dresses. And I was really mad because, you know, I'm from New York, and there was no such thing as that dress code. I mean, they're ridiculous. So we had to wear a dress. And it used to make me crazy because the staircase that went up to the break room was a floating staircase, an open staircase, and the lone officers, who were all men, set underneath it. So I didn't want to wear a dress. So when they told me I had to wear a dress, I wore a leopard dress. And so people would come to my window in South Carolina, because that was the first place I was a banker.
[06:03]
Interviewer
Just have a little accent throughout here.
[06:04]
Pat Benatar
And they would say to me, veneta. That's not a local name. And I go, no, I'm from New York. And they go, I'll go to the next window.
[06:13]
Interviewer
Really?
[06:14]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. So that was that. But then, you know, when I went to Virginia, they were much more liberal, and it was, you know, it was fun. It was a way to make money.
[06:21]
Interviewer
The reason I want to start there is because this is when you did is what, your first recording day gig?
[06:26]
Pat Benatar
Yes, because when I was in Virginia, I met. I started singing with. Besides working at the bank and going to vcu, I also was in this bar band, and we were doing cover songs and stuff. And the guy who was the piano player for that band also wrote songs. And that was one of the first songs.
[06:42]
Interviewer
I was surprised because it has a little bit of like a Curtis Mayfield, Dionne Warwick.
[06:46]
Pat Benatar
They were like, you know, they were
[06:47]
Neil Giraldo
like a bar sort of on the laundry side.
[06:50]
Interviewer
But did you have professional aspirations at that point, or. It was just kind of a.
[06:54]
Pat Benatar
No. It was like I sang, you know, I always sang my whole life. And I was working and going to school, and I thought, well, this will be fun.
[07:00]
Interviewer
Because my father was a kind of a club bar musician. So I remember those times pretty well. And a lot of people were playing, and a lot of people didn't have professional aspirations. There seemed to be a lot of bands.
[07:11]
Pat Benatar
And, I mean, I did when I. When I was. You know, the plan when I was growing up in school was to go to Juilliard. And then that was the whole thing. I was being prepared to do that. And then my boyfriend at the time got drafted, and I was afraid he was going to die in Vietnam, which he didn't, and I married him. But anyway. But that's why I didn't do. I dropped all the professional aspirations because then I decided to go to school and be a schoolteacher and whatever.
[07:40]
Interviewer
Okay, so you're over here, bank teller, little side hustle with music. But no real, like, I'm going to be a star Bond.
[07:48]
Pat Benatar
Not until I did that bar band thing. And then I realized how much I really love singing. And then I just decided one day to quit that bar band and go back to New York, and that's what I did. But he started really young.
[08:02]
Interviewer
Right, because you're like, were you in Cleveland or in New York? Because I get a little confused on that. When did you go to New York?
[08:12]
Neil Giraldo
I went in New York when I joined Rick Derringer's band.
[08:15]
Interviewer
Okay, so let me go early because. So is this in Cleveland. Like, you're, you know, you're like a lot of kids that generation. You listen to the Kinks, the who and Yardbirds.
[08:23]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[08:23]
Interviewer
And. And so did you want to be a rock star?
[08:27]
Neil Giraldo
It was like, well, Sicilian family, right? Growing up Italian, Sicilian. And my father wanted me to play guitar so I could do duets with my sister, who played accordion so we could do the songs of the old country. You know, this was the idea.
[08:41]
Interviewer
And then I grew up in this world, too.
[08:43]
Neil Giraldo
So, you know what's going on?
[08:44]
Interviewer
That's why I'm laughing.
[08:44]
Neil Giraldo
You understand?
[08:45]
Interviewer
It was supposed to be, trust me, I had the speech one day. You don't want to play guitar, you want to play accordion.
[08:50]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Yeah. I eventually did start playing accordion, too,
[08:53]
Interviewer
because there was money there.
[08:54]
Neil Giraldo
I didn't like my sister. I didn't care for how she played So I got a little weird. I'm a little weird. Sorry about that. Yeah, she knows about that, so. But that was the idea. After church on Sundays for your family. And you were gonna do these duets. You know, I was six years old when I started playing guitar. My Uncle Timmy was my mentor. He's only four years older than me. So he came, moved in. Because my grandpa passed away early. He was having. It's like having an older brother. So that was super cool. Wild older brother. Wild older brother.
[09:23]
Interviewer
Right.
[09:23]
Neil Giraldo
So.
[09:23]
Interviewer
But it's like a lot of those guys, like back in the day, you're just playing with jet bands, teen bands, high school dances. Like, what was your kind of.
[09:31]
Neil Giraldo
Well, a little different. A little different. Because I never cared for contemporary pop music. I wanted to. I did, but I wanted it to be different. I didn't want to do cover songs. I wanted to do original songs. Even when I was very young, 12, what I used to do too, which is very weird. And I think back on it, you know how it applies to what you do as well, when you grow up, you filter in all these inspirational people. Right. And you don't always know them. Maybe you'd never seen him listen to the records and you're playing along and you don't know what they look like or anything. And stuff goes in. Right. And then as time goes, you. You don't forget about it, but it shows up and you're playing, singing, writing. Right. So what I would do is I. I would get a record. My Uncle Timmy would buy me a record. I'd get a record. I'd listen to the record, and I'd listen to all the songs back to back. And I'd start writing songs at an early age because I.
[10:22]
Interviewer
So what age was that?
[10:23]
Neil Giraldo
Being about 12, that's pretty early.
[10:25]
Interviewer
Start writing.
[10:26]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. 12, 13. The songs probably were terrible, but I. But the idea was I was so inspired by the record in all the songs, I'd say, I'll start writing instead of playing the parts on the record.
[10:36]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[10:37]
Neil Giraldo
And that's. That's how I began that. And that's why I, I, I, as a musician, I use instruments as tools. My main goal is to make great songs, great records. So that's how I always. And I still think to this day. So it's all about that to me. So I started real young. I don't know if there's a song in your life span when you were a kid that you heard to kind of define where you were going to go.
[11:01]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[11:01]
Neil Giraldo
When I heard Elvis Presley, Heartbreak Hotel. Because we're like 12 years older. So when I heard that on the hi fi system my parents had. And I could hear the spatialness of the song. But I was really young, but I can hear the richness of the voice and the reverb and the openness of the song.
[11:20]
Interviewer
Wasn't that made like at RCA in New York or something? Like when Elvis had left Sun.
[11:25]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, I don't remember. 1956, I think it was.
[11:28]
Interviewer
Sam Phillips sold Elvis's concert to RCA.
[11:31]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[11:31]
Interviewer
For $35,000.
[11:33]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, I know.
[11:35]
Interviewer
But that's the first time Elvis is in a real studio.
[11:38]
Neil Giraldo
It was amazing.
[11:39]
Interviewer
And the bass on that record is richness. Like you can tell. It's stand up bass.
[11:44]
Neil Giraldo
Everything but the space. Spatialness. There's a piano, there's.
[11:47]
Interviewer
Remember who wrote that song? Is it Doc Thomas?
[11:50]
Neil Giraldo
He has no. He has credit for writing it.
[11:52]
Interviewer
Oh. But.
[11:52]
Neil Giraldo
But there's. I think there's people that wrote it.
[11:55]
Interviewer
Is it Libra Stoler?
[11:56]
Neil Giraldo
No, it's. It's not who.
[11:58]
Interviewer
You know, you're right. It's like kind of this. They're almost kind of an obscure writing.
[12:01]
Neil Giraldo
I think it was a. Yeah. A guy and a girl.
[12:03]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[12:04]
Neil Giraldo
And I don't know if they.
[12:04]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[12:05]
Neil Giraldo
I don't know about this recently.
[12:07]
Interviewer
That's why.
[12:08]
Neil Giraldo
But it was so thunderous, the whole feel of that. And right then I kind of went. That's what I was there.
[12:14]
Interviewer
Was it that. It had a kind of a cinematic aspect to it too.
[12:16]
Neil Giraldo
Well, that's funny you mentioned that thing because a lot of times in arranging and producing, I. I hear stuff in a cinematic form, like an architectural form, you know, where you have the vocal here and you have the reverb and the snare and all these instruments. But I see that.
[12:32]
Interviewer
That's interesting.
[12:32]
Neil Giraldo
That's how I. I don't do colors. I don't do red, green. And that sounds blue. I don't do that. But I do more architecturally. You know, it's a weird thing, but it always works. It worked like that.
[12:43]
Interviewer
How do we get you to New York now? So. Because you're this.
[12:47]
Pat Benatar
Because I wake up one day and I decide that, you know what, this is ridiculous. I should be singing. And I went and I quit.
[12:53]
Interviewer
So you had that.
[12:54]
Neil Giraldo
She's from New York too, so.
[12:55]
Interviewer
No, I get that.
[12:55]
Pat Benatar
But I'm saying I quit the bank job. I left the band.
[12:59]
Interviewer
How do you. I gotta hear this. So.
[13:01]
Pat Benatar
So they're saying when you march into
[13:02]
Interviewer
the office, I'm leaving, like No, I just.
[13:04]
Pat Benatar
I just quit and I just.
[13:05]
Interviewer
Was it dramatic? No. No drama?
[13:07]
Pat Benatar
No, I mean, it was dramatic for those guys. I mean, we were doing regionally in that part of the country. Like, we had a PBS special, you know.
[13:16]
Neil Giraldo
Really?
[13:16]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. We did all this kind of stuff. And I was. And I said, I'm going back to New York. And they're, oh, you'll be back. You know, and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, I. I never looked back. But, you know, that was it. And I just decided, this is crazy. And I'm going back to New York, and you can't do something for real here. This is crazy. You know, you can be like a big fish in a small pond.
[13:36]
Interviewer
Is this Richmond?
[13:37]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. And fabulous. I mean, I had the best time. I loved everything. It was great. The people were darling. We had the best time. It was so much fun. But I knew I had to go back to New York.
[13:46]
Interviewer
Okay.
[13:46]
Pat Benatar
And that was that.
[13:47]
Interviewer
So the. Your apocryphal story, is it Catch a Rising Star, you're on stage, I go
[13:51]
Pat Benatar
on at 2:45 in the morning.
[13:53]
Interviewer
Is it just a kind of a open mic?
[13:55]
Pat Benatar
It's open mic. That's what it was.
[13:56]
Interviewer
Is it Rockabye Baby or Dixie Lander?
[13:59]
Pat Benatar
So I was still doing, like, cabaret music, you know what I mean? You have to understand that even though his whole sensibility started as a young child, the only part of my life that was about pop music and rock and roll music was what I liked as a person, not as a performer. Sure. Because my whole thing was about classical music and theater. I was in every musical that was possible to be in. But my favorite singers were, like, you know, Robert Plant and, you know, the Four Toys.
[14:30]
Interviewer
But I also saw a mention of you being inspired by Liza Minnelli.
[14:33]
Pat Benatar
No, this is a total fallacy.
[14:35]
Interviewer
Okay, great. That's the problem with the Internet.
[14:37]
Pat Benatar
It's a total fallacy that I had all of my gay friends.
[14:40]
Interviewer
Because I love Liza. That's what I was gonna ask you.
[14:42]
Pat Benatar
I mean, I love her mother. I mean, she's fabulous. But that's not what happened.
[14:45]
Interviewer
Yeah, tell me. Tell me the real story.
[14:47]
Pat Benatar
Let me tell you what happened. I have all my gay friends in Richmond. Okay? They say we're going to go see Liza Minnelli at the. Whatever. Richmond Coliseum. It's a giant thing. I'm working in the bank. I'm singing with. No, I'm not singing yet. I'm just working in the bank.
[15:01]
Interviewer
All right.
[15:02]
Pat Benatar
These are my friends that I work with. At the bank, the gay guys, they want to go. I'm like, sure, whatever. I loved her mother. She's great. Let's go. We go. Here's what happens. The lights are still on in the building. The stage is dark. She's not out yet. I'm sitting there, and I'm looking around, and. And I'm looking around, and I'm thinking to myself, hmm. And then the lights come on, and she comes out, and she starts singing. And I say to myself, are you kidding me? I can do that. And I quit the next day. So it's not her.
[15:34]
Interviewer
But God bless Liza because she was there. Do you ever meet Liza?
[15:38]
Pat Benatar
Sure, but it wasn't her as a performer. It was what she was doing inside this door.
[15:45]
Interviewer
I just want to talk about Liza. That's what I'm poking about.
[15:47]
Neil Giraldo
It's the rumor he's one person, starts it. By the time. At the end of the day, it changes.
[15:52]
Pat Benatar
No. Robert Plant and Levi Tubbs. Those are the people, you know, from Ford Fort and, like, Joni Mitchell. These are the people that were. And John.
[16:02]
Interviewer
No, I just thought it was an interesting, you know, thing.
[16:04]
Pat Benatar
I know. Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.
[16:06]
Interviewer
So is Chrysalis. Somebody from Chrysalis sees you, and I'm
[16:12]
Pat Benatar
in New York and Gabby Stark, and I'm showcasing.
[16:14]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[16:15]
Pat Benatar
Okay.
[16:16]
Interviewer
But are you looking for a deal?
[16:18]
Pat Benatar
I'm making the transition from being a cabaret musical theater singer. Took me three years. Start working with songwriters because I'm so used to still singing other people's music and emulating, you know, what their performances are.
[16:35]
Interviewer
People in your ear, because there's always somebody in your ear when you're young. What were they telling you that you should be? Because obviously we know who they are.
[16:41]
Pat Benatar
You told me I should be Olivia Newton Johnson. They said, look how good she's doing. And are you crazy? Girls don't do sell.
[16:47]
Interviewer
You could have done that. No problem.
[16:48]
Pat Benatar
Of course. But girls don't sell at Madison Square Garden. And I was like, mm. And that was. That's all I needed. That's all. All you had to say done was Liza Minnelli and girls can't sell at Madison Square Garden.
[17:01]
Interviewer
That's what I'm saying.
[17:03]
Neil Giraldo
Sorry. Sorry.
[17:04]
Interviewer
It was a bad joke. So you get offered a deal, and now you.
[17:10]
Pat Benatar
First, I have to go through, like, three years of the transition.
[17:12]
Interviewer
Okay, but, you know, in the movie, that's a quick cut.
[17:15]
Pat Benatar
I know, but it's not that quick, because I know.
[17:16]
Interviewer
I want to hear about.
[17:17]
Pat Benatar
I'm actually it was me starting to sing, you know, like, trying to, like, sing Satisfaction. I sounded like Julie Andrews. It was like, not, you know. And I love.
[17:25]
Interviewer
Is that where you kind of. Because when I first heard you, what amazed me is I love that you had a rock quality to your voice. That's my earliest memories of listening to you. It was like, wow. I actually like a woman singing rock.
[17:38]
Pat Benatar
I just learned, though, because I loved it so much. I just didn't know how to take everything that I had here.
[17:43]
Interviewer
Yeah, I didn't know if that was natural.
[17:45]
Pat Benatar
Cause it was the most unnatural thing on earth. But to.
[17:49]
Interviewer
For me, as a young fan, that was like. That's what attracted me to.
[17:52]
Pat Benatar
Oh, good. My work is.
[17:53]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, yeah.
[17:54]
Pat Benatar
But it was. Because I never. I was working with guitar, like, you know, guitar players and everything. Everybody was. And they were patting me on the head like, yes, yes, we understand. Yes. And I'm like, no, you don't understand at all. And when I signed with Chrysalis, I still didn't know Spider yet. And that first we did. We still had Heartbreaker. What do we have? Heartbreaker. I Need a Lover. No, no yet. Heartbreaker.
[18:18]
Neil Giraldo
That's.
[18:19]
Pat Benatar
And we had. I don't know. Something. I don't know. We had a few.
[18:21]
Interviewer
Don't jump. My storyline I gotta talk about. But I have to tell you, Rick Derringer.
[18:26]
Pat Benatar
Okay, we're gonna get there. But the point is that you did
[18:29]
Interviewer
warn me, by the way.
[18:30]
Neil Giraldo
I did. I warned you. I tried to warn you.
[18:33]
Interviewer
No, please, please, please, no. I'm actually really interested. Because I think the problem is.
[18:37]
Pat Benatar
But I'm getting to him, which is really important, is that I couldn't find anybody who actually understood what I was doing. Okay, I get that they're patting me on the head. We actually made beginning of a record, five songs with Chris, Les, me and all these people. They put together Wattie and all these people. And Terry Ellis came to me when we did the five songs. And while we were doing it, I was thinking, oh, my God, this is my one chance and this is not it. And I'm like freaking out. And he comes to me and he says to me, you know, it's the first time. I don't want you to expect too much. And I said to him, oh, my God, I expect everything.
[19:19]
Interviewer
Okay, has that changed or.
[19:20]
Neil Giraldo
No, that's not okay. That's why I'm quiet right now.
[19:23]
Pat Benatar
It got scrapped. It got scrapped. And then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Cole. Now, Mike didn't do a whole lot
[19:27]
Interviewer
of work but don't jump my toe story.
[19:29]
Neil Giraldo
You're jumping ahead.
[19:30]
Pat Benatar
I'm not talking to him.
[19:30]
Neil Giraldo
No, but you're jumping way ahead.
[19:32]
Interviewer
No, because it's. Because it's important. Because. Let me give you a perspective. Right. First time I ever see your husband is he's with you. So that's all I know as a fan, but when I actually do the research, it's like, oh, he did this. And it was.
[19:45]
Pat Benatar
That's what I was trying to tell.
[19:46]
Interviewer
But I'm saying let me tell that story too. No, because as a fan, you know, you get these impressions, but they're not accurate.
[19:53]
Pat Benatar
They're not. Okay, go.
[19:55]
Interviewer
Right. That's what I'm saying. Thank you.
[19:57]
Neil Giraldo
You know why? Because there's a thing. There's a little formula. Assumption plus judgment equals X. So you assume something you don't really know and then you judge that. And most of the time, 5%, you may be right. 3%, you may be right. You don't really know, in other words.
[20:12]
Interviewer
Yeah, because I consider myself a bit of a snobby rock historian. And when I did my research on you, it surprised me because. And I want to talk about those things, but it was like I found myself connecting dots, like, oh, I didn't know you did that. And that makes sense. And that's where that sound went this way. And that's why it had this influence. So that's why this partnership works. But as a fan. And by the way, the albums were called Pat Benatar.
[20:36]
Pat Benatar
Correct. Because it was signed as Pat Benatar.
[20:37]
Interviewer
Okay, I get you. But I'm saying, as a fan, it's not Pat Neil.
[20:40]
Pat Benatar
No, we tried.
[20:41]
Interviewer
And let me tell you, because I Woke up at 4:30 this morning to interview you guys today to get ready. And you know the first thing, I opened my email and some of you sent me an email and I said, pat Neal. And it just read like, two old ladies. Like, who are Pat Neil? You know what I mean?
[20:56]
Pat Benatar
I was like, we are. Well, one of us is an old lady.
[20:58]
Interviewer
No, but I get that. What I'm saying is, like. I'm like, who's Pat Neal? Because the way it just rang, you know. Okay, so Rick Derringer. I love Rick Derringer, by the way.
[21:06]
Neil Giraldo
Rick's the greatest.
[21:08]
Interviewer
Please tell me about Rick, because I always love rock and roll. Hoochie Coop. But I love Rick with Johnny Winter.
[21:13]
Neil Giraldo
And I love.
[21:14]
Interviewer
What was this band, Rick's original band.
[21:17]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, you mean sloopy. Oh, the McCoys. Yeah.
[21:20]
Interviewer
Great band, great band. Number one record Basically everything Rick's ever touched is really good.
[21:24]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[21:25]
Interviewer
So like guitar players, we know Rick's really good.
[21:27]
Neil Giraldo
Great player.
[21:27]
Interviewer
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about. There's like 400 people auditioned or something.
[21:32]
Neil Giraldo
It was 200. 200 plus people audition.
[21:35]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's impressive.
[21:37]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[21:38]
Pat Benatar
Going up to it.
[21:39]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Yeah. Well, hold on. So, you know, I was playing in many bands and I was young, 21 years old. So a lot of bands like you do when you're growing up, you do all these things, doing strange covers and weird songs. You know, you never play in the high school places that other people are playing, making a lot of money. We didn't do that in the bands I was with. So anyway, so I was playing in this band. I was getting kind of depressed and I was moving around. I was playing bass guitar and keyboard. It was just, it was one of these four piece bands where everybody kind of switched around, you know, And I was playing in a band and this person came up to me during a break and says, wow, you're a great bass player. Would you like to audition for. What the heck is his name now? Oh, with White Trash.
[22:21]
Pat Benatar
The Cleveland guy?
[22:22]
Neil Giraldo
No, he was in White Trash with Edgar Winner, the bass player Hartman.
[22:29]
Interviewer
Okay.
[22:30]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, I think. I can't remember now. I was like, that's what happens. You get older. Forget this. But anyway, I said to him, I said to him, audition. I said, well, I have to ask my bandmates if it's okay if I do something. He goes, it's in New York. I says, but I'm more primarily a guitar player and a piano player. I don't play bands.
[22:46]
Interviewer
I want to be a bass player.
[22:47]
Neil Giraldo
So he said, oh, well, Rick Derring was looking for a guitar player. What. Can I, could I see him? So he set up an audition for both of them the same day. I went to Rick first. I got done auditioning for Rick and I says, well, I get Dan Hartman.
[23:04]
Interviewer
Dan Hartman, and then singer, songwriter.
[23:07]
Pat Benatar
Dan Hartman.
[23:07]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, yeah. Bass player. Yeah. And. And then I says, rick, I says, you know, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. I says, I gotta go audition for Dan Hartman now. He goes, no, you don't. You're not going. I says, well, have an audition. He goes, no, you're not. So I became a finalist in the last five out of these 200 guitar players. Okay, so. But it goes like this. This is the funny part about this. So as I'm waiting to go do the audition the first time this guy Walks out, he's got this long black hair, he looked like Fabi. Got a leather jacket, all these rings and all these came out and went, oh, my God, there's no chance I'm going to get this gate. Because I had a rope belt, pair of jeans, white sneakers and a white T shirt. That's all I had. And I looked at him, he goes, hey, how you doing? I go, good. I go, I'm Neil. He goes, I'm Rudy. Rudy Valentino was his name. Now, here's the funny part of the story. So he comes out and he's like, jesus, I ain't got a chance. Well, it went in there, went really well. I had to come back.
[24:06]
Interviewer
First stop, one second. So in order to audition for Ricky arranger, you're just jamming, you're playing a song or.
[24:11]
Neil Giraldo
Well, he told me, they told me a few songs to learn song. I learned everything.
[24:15]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[24:16]
Neil Giraldo
Okay. And then when I went in there and started playing and I says, you know, you're going to do any Jerry Lee Lewis, I know you do this Rave up stuff and we might. I go, well, I play piano, too. He says, well, prove it. Put the piano in there. I play it. Prove it. So, so. And what else you do? I go, I like to write songs. You know, I sing backup. I don't care much about singing, but. And I love writing and. Okay, prove it. So I had to go back to Cleveland with the band and write a song and record it.
[24:43]
Interviewer
Oh, you didn't have any songs?
[24:44]
Neil Giraldo
No. Record it. Well, not that I could play him. I was too embarrassed. So I went, wrote something, recorded it and went back, and that's when I got the gig. Wow. Yeah. So it was a. It was.
[24:55]
Interviewer
And you're with Rick how long?
[24:57]
Neil Giraldo
About a year and a half. Yeah, about a year and a half. And actually, when we made the first record, I finished the first record, I was back in New York and I saw Johnny Winner.
[25:08]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[25:09]
Neil Giraldo
And he heard the record I played in the record, and he goes, oh, I like that, I like that. I go, yeah, I, I, you know, I'm in Rick's band, you know, I don't think I can go back to Rick Eagle. No. He goes, you should be, you should
[25:21]
Interviewer
be there because Johnny Winner told you.
[25:23]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Yeah.
[25:24]
Interviewer
Wow, that's interesting.
[25:25]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. And then Rick says, you're coming back,
[25:26]
Interviewer
Right, I'm sorry, because you felt you had an arc.
[25:30]
Neil Giraldo
Well, here's the thing for me, and this is the basis of why this works so well from my perspective, I'm not a singer. I sing because I have to, to write. No, no, no, no, no.
[25:42]
Interviewer
Okay, wait, stop. How good a singer is.
[25:44]
Pat Benatar
No, he's a very good singer.
[25:45]
Neil Giraldo
I'm not.
[25:46]
Pat Benatar
He's got real soul. It's like, amazing.
[25:48]
Neil Giraldo
No, I'm not. So all I'm looking for is a great singer, right? To work with. That's all. I want somebody that can sing and do. Because I love a lot of different genres.
[25:58]
Interviewer
You know what they say in life, Be careful what you wish.
[26:00]
Neil Giraldo
I know that. Look what happened. That's what I'm saying here. So, I mean. And I didn't care.
[26:04]
Interviewer
You got the fold.
[26:05]
Neil Giraldo
I know. I didn't care if it was a woman, a guy. I don't care. I just want a great singer. And all the bands I was with, I had singers in a band, but they weren't great. I wanted great. And then when I met Patricia and I went, oh. I said. First thing I told her, I says, you sure you want to do this? You know, because.
[26:23]
Interviewer
Well, why did you say that?
[26:24]
Neil Giraldo
Because her voice was so smooth and easy and she was doing falsetto. She wouldn't go to the note in a real rain. Real voice. She didn't have that yet.
[26:34]
Interviewer
You mean the rock?
[26:34]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, that's what I'm.
[26:36]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, she would cheat on it, so.
[26:37]
Interviewer
Yeah, I get it.
[26:38]
Neil Giraldo
And then.
[26:39]
Pat Benatar
Cheating.
[26:39]
Interviewer
That's cheating for rock people.
[26:42]
Neil Giraldo
It's cheating. It's cheating. So I told her, you sure you want to do this? I don't want to be the guy that's going to damage your voice, you know?
[26:48]
Interviewer
Oh. Because. To push her voice and.
[26:50]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, because we can hear what rock
[26:52]
Interviewer
does to her voice.
[26:52]
Neil Giraldo
We kept working, kept working until we hit that.
[26:55]
Interviewer
How long was that period of working?
[26:56]
Neil Giraldo
A couple months.
[26:58]
Interviewer
Because, I mean, writing too, or just working on.
[27:01]
Neil Giraldo
Just working on that bit. Writing was part of that process later, but it was. I just. I knew that there was something else that she had in her that she had to get to because she had all this range. And it was. But it didn't. It didn't carry. This note did not carry with the regular voice here. It went to falsetto. You can't do that. We cannot do that.
[27:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, please.
[27:21]
Neil Giraldo
We do that.
[27:22]
Interviewer
It's your turn.
[27:23]
Pat Benatar
The reason this happened.
[27:24]
Interviewer
You guys are so cute together.
[27:26]
Neil Giraldo
We're not cute.
[27:27]
Pat Benatar
No, but this is what happened. What happened is that what I was saying is that when I was making the record the first time, I had all these people who are amazing players, but none of them was doing what I was talking about. And I was It.
[27:40]
Interviewer
Sorry to interrupt you. Was it an emotional thing you were after or a feeling? Explain it to me. Explain it to me how you explained it to them.
[27:46]
Pat Benatar
I was looking for this really powerful bench to sing on top of.
[27:51]
Interviewer
Is that rock to you or just an emotional feeling?
[27:53]
Pat Benatar
No, it was a musical thing.
[27:55]
Neil Giraldo
I was looking for emotional.
[27:57]
Interviewer
I hate to interrupt you, but I just wanna. I really wanna understand. Is it rock that you're. Are you saying I wanna sound like this band or is it an emotional. Understand, like what I do know what's the languaging you were using.
[28:07]
Pat Benatar
Okay.
[28:09]
Interviewer
Because. Sorry. Because you did get there, obviously, together. And I was one of those people who bought that first record and was like, what is this? So whatever you figured out was good. But I want to know what you told him.
[28:21]
Pat Benatar
Okay. I didn't want to be a girl singer singing falsetto parts up at the top. I wanted to be this other thing. I heard it. I knew what I heard in my head. There wasn't enough. There wasn't enough bass of music. Like, I didn't have enough power underneath
[28:41]
Interviewer
it to push you. To push you out.
[28:43]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[28:43]
Interviewer
Okay. I got that.
[28:43]
Pat Benatar
Okay. So what happened was when. Then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Coleman. Mike and I were sitting together and he. You know, he was like. He was hilarious. He could do like three songs. And I was like, whatever. And Peter was gonna do the record, which turned out to be the best thing that happened. But Mike and I sat together and he said, what do you want? And I told him that. And he said to me, I got your guy.
[29:08]
Neil Giraldo
Cause I was with Derringer. He saw me. Cause he produced Rick's record.
[29:12]
Interviewer
But Mike Chapman had also done, like, the Suite and stuff like that. So he knew how to get a.
[29:17]
Pat Benatar
But he knew exactly what I was talking about.
[29:20]
Interviewer
So when you explained it, he thought of him.
[29:21]
Pat Benatar
He thought of him. And he. And I said, okay, fine, let's do it. So all he wanted us to do was to meet each other. That was it. Because he knew exactly what I was talking about.
[29:34]
Interviewer
So take me to that first meeting. You look and say, here's my future musical partner. Here's my future husband. Like, what was your first impression?
[29:40]
Pat Benatar
It was everything but the.
[29:43]
Interviewer
They say. Women know, right? They do. They say it was okay. My wife said she knew right away. And I. It just took me 12 years to figure it out.
[29:51]
Pat Benatar
I don't know what to do with that, because it was.
[29:53]
Interviewer
I got that. We'll stay on the professional side of the equation.
[29:55]
Pat Benatar
No, but I'm saying no But I mean, we can. It's an important part of the day is that I was signed. Okay. As me with a bunch of fabulous musicians who were just coming and going. No band? Not yet. We're at. Sir. He's coming down.
[30:12]
Interviewer
Sir. Here?
[30:13]
Neil Giraldo
No, in New York.
[30:14]
Interviewer
Oh, sorry.
[30:14]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[30:14]
Pat Benatar
We don't know each other at all. I know about him. I've.
[30:18]
Interviewer
Was he wearing a rope belt when he came?
[30:20]
Pat Benatar
Yes, he was. And he.
[30:22]
Interviewer
When he.
[30:23]
Pat Benatar
The rope belt go to New York to meet this person. He didn't know at first that I was a female. He didn't know.
[30:31]
Interviewer
He just heard a singer and the
[30:33]
Pat Benatar
first thing he said was she good looking?
[30:36]
Neil Giraldo
I mean, well, that's what a guy would say. This is Italian, man, what you do.
[30:39]
Pat Benatar
So I want you to understand where I did that. That was where that was. But they told them that I was this.
[30:44]
Interviewer
See this empathy here is. I'm Sicilian too. He doesn't know that.
[30:47]
Neil Giraldo
But I. You are too. So you connect.
[30:48]
Interviewer
I'm feeling the flow.
[30:49]
Neil Giraldo
That's what I'm saying. That's why we connect.
[30:51]
Pat Benatar
And I am a ball buster because it is the women's movement and I'm not having anybody tell me what to do ever. Okay.
[30:58]
Interviewer
I kind of got that feeling right about now. I just met you.
[31:00]
Pat Benatar
But so anyway, that's why I'm quiet now. I'm prepared for this guy who they're telling me all about now this. He's young. I mean, he's younger than me, all this stuff and everything. And I have my back to the door. I'm talking to my manager at the time and they say, neil Giraldo's here. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And I'm signed. Okay. And he says. I hear him say that he didn't bring his guitar.
[31:30]
Neil Giraldo
Well, no, I was playing piano first,
[31:32]
Pat Benatar
so he was going to play piano. He didn't know what he was coming to play. And he says to somebody in the room, my back is still to him, can I borrow your X man? And I'm like, what? And I'm like going to turn around now and just go like this, okay. And I turn around, ready to just like, like as I turn and I go, oh my God. Okay. He hasn't played a note. He turns around and he's got the guitar on his body and he goes like this, like that.
[32:08]
Interviewer
I know how he stands on stage. I got it right. I got it.
[32:11]
Pat Benatar
So now I'm seeing all swagger now and I want to smash my own face. Okay. I want to Smack the. Out of myself. Like, get a grip. Okay. What the are you doing? Okay. And I'm looking at him, and I don't know, I can't even breathe now. And he hits one chord, and I'm like, that was it?
[32:31]
Interviewer
That was the sound you were looking for?
[32:34]
Pat Benatar
That was it?
[32:35]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[32:36]
Interviewer
You found all out all this stuff later, right? You're just like. I just went in an acorn.
[32:41]
Pat Benatar
A and R guy.
[32:42]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, yeah, the A and R guy. But what she misses, what she leaves out, is the fact that, yeah, Mike saw me play. Thank. Mike was the guy that connected us all. Saw me play with Derringer because he produced the record before. Okay, the record before, with Derringer. So he's perfect. Here's a guy that understands song structure to play instruments. He can do help in the writing, the produce, all these things. Here I am, ready to come. Perfect. Perfect match. So I. I go down there because I want to talk to her. It's kind of like we're auditioning each other in a way, because what is it you want to do? And how could I be helpful? Yeah.
[33:16]
Interviewer
For all you know, it's just another. I don't know. Yeah.
[33:18]
Neil Giraldo
So I sit down at the piano and play piano. I says, well, what. What do you think about. I heard some of the demos in. In those. Or whatever that part of that record was, and it wasn't anything like.
[33:28]
Interviewer
What did it sound like to you? Like. Like kind of schlocky? Well, there was, first of all, AOR kind of.
[33:33]
Neil Giraldo
Well, there was. There was no. There was no. There was no emotional giving Of. Of attitude or punch or. It wasn't there. And her. Her singing was very light, like, you know, hitting the notes, pretty. And she did a cover of Crying. Roy Orbison crying. Okay, beautiful. But what. That ain't what you're trying to do here. So when we started playing at that rehearsal, I started playing and I. I stop and I say, you just talked about what you want to do. That's not happening yet. So that's when I knew we had to start developing, changing keys, arrangements, things pushing, working together.
[34:17]
Interviewer
So what convinced you that you wanted to be musically involved? The life part is coming, but the musical, like, what were you like? Okay, I want to. Or do you just see it as an opportunity?
[34:28]
Neil Giraldo
I saw it as an opportunity, but it was also a gift because of the raw talent. It wasn't as though Patricia was doing clubs for 10 years prior to that. In that rockin world, the world that we grew up in, she wasn't experienced in that she was not that quote, I hate to do this. This chick group, chick, girl singer, rock.
[34:54]
Interviewer
I totally know what you mean.
[34:55]
Neil Giraldo
She wasn't that. She was when I met her. I'm thinking, you're such a normal, nice, you're educated, you went to school, you know all these things. You didn't blame.
[35:04]
Interviewer
Probably not. And also not overly affected in how she was singing. Right?
[35:08]
Neil Giraldo
Nothing. So it was this really. This really virgin musical journey that I could be able to really embrace and be from a beginning.
[35:17]
Interviewer
So you saw your own kind of.
[35:19]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, totally. It was a way that we. A partnership. Because when we met and we decided that, yes, okay, I'm the guy and this is going to work, there was a partnership done between her and I. We were equal partners. She had the record deal, but we were equal partners in the fact that we were anything. In other words. It was a pretty strange thing. But when the A and R says, I'm glad this is going to work, you can do anything you want. That was the word. Anything you want.
[35:49]
Interviewer
So you guys met in 78, is that right? Yes. Okay. So please don't jump. I'm too far ahead. But you mean 78. How soon from that? Let's call it ground zero of meeting. And you go, oh, like I have this feeling. How soon are you talking? Like you're talking now.
[36:10]
Neil Giraldo
Is it sexually?
[36:11]
Interviewer
Six months in music or which way? Well, there's. In my mind, in the movie, in my mind, there comes a day where you guys sit down at a coffee shop and go, okay, we gotta sort of figure this out, because whatever's happening here is bigger than.
[36:25]
Pat Benatar
Okay, you mean.
[36:26]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. This was 70.
[36:28]
Interviewer
Doesn't matter. It just strikes me that your partnership is so intense and obviously it's remained.
[36:34]
Pat Benatar
We decided.
[36:35]
Neil Giraldo
It was in 79 too, by the way. It was in month of May, I think in 79 when we met.
[36:40]
Pat Benatar
That's true. It was. I knew. They told me about in 78, but we decided this immediately because I was such a willing. A willing acolyte.
[36:50]
Interviewer
But are you pitching him on love and business or just business?
[36:54]
Pat Benatar
No, we're not together. We make that whole record. Not together.
[36:57]
Neil Giraldo
That we were together.
[36:58]
Interviewer
But you're having these feelings.
[36:59]
Pat Benatar
No, we're losing our minds. But we're like, we know what this means and we know that we should not do this because is it the.
[37:05]
Interviewer
If we cross this line, we might up this other thing that's obviously going to work.
[37:10]
Pat Benatar
They were in there. Did you dare? Don't.
[37:12]
Interviewer
Oh, so you had other people in your Ear.
[37:13]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, they were in there, like, do not do nothing. This up. Okay. Now. We were, like, insane. Okay. It was crazy. But, you know, it made that record really fun because it was so much tension and, like, you know, all that kind of stuff going on. It was bad.
[37:29]
Interviewer
And how are you feeling through this whole.
[37:30]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. I had a girlfriend and I was living in Southern California. She was married, and I had a girlfriend. And then that went sideways. So, you know, and then that day, that was. That was. That was the universe kind of talking.
[37:44]
Pat Benatar
I mean, it was, like, all hooked up. It was, you know, it was like a thing. And I was trying to get divorced. And as soon as I knew that this was gonna happen, I sent people to take him to get divorced. So we got just like that, you know, so.
[37:57]
Interviewer
All right. Back to business.
[37:59]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[38:01]
Interviewer
First record, right? I got this, right, right?
[38:03]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[38:04]
Interviewer
So let me ask you this. And this has gone on. A lot of covers interspersed. But great songs, cool choices. Like the Rascal song, you Better Run. We said on the first or second record. Okay. But I mean, I always like that you guys picked really cool for cover songs. Yeah.
[38:22]
Pat Benatar
I wasn't writing yet. And he. He wrote. The only song that we had that was original was We Live for Love
[38:27]
Neil Giraldo
off the first record song.
[38:28]
Interviewer
You like that one?
[38:29]
Pat Benatar
Because that he.
[38:30]
Interviewer
See, sorry, we're talking, like Schneider. But when she uses falsetto in that song, in that context, it's actually. It's actually very new wave.
[38:38]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. That was the point.
[38:39]
Interviewer
But that works.
[38:40]
Neil Giraldo
That works. That was intentional for that.
[38:42]
Interviewer
Knowing I was going to talk to you guys, I went back and started listening to stuff. And I had this sense where I'd be like that song, because I heard it, obviously, but I was like, oh, I love that song. When your voice goes up, it's so cool. It's very alternative.
[38:53]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, it was.
[38:54]
Neil Giraldo
That was when we did. Yeah, we did 64. 64 vocals for that. But not eight. We did eight. She didn't sing it 64 times. We did eight. And then we would fly it in. Okay. You know. You know, before.
[39:09]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
[39:09]
Neil Giraldo
You know, all this.
[39:10]
Interviewer
But I think this was cool. Just as a side note is your appeal is you. The rock audiences embraced you, which was unique. You know, Chicago, Cleveland, like.
[39:23]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, yeah, it was.
[39:24]
Interviewer
Girls sing in rock. You had to be the right person. So if you look at the air, like, whether it was you or Chrissy Hyde, very few women kind of broke through with a rock crowd. Embrace them.
[39:33]
Neil Giraldo
Totally.
[39:34]
Interviewer
But what's interesting is the alternative crowd that was coming that was listening to you. You were just as influential in this other way.
[39:40]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[39:41]
Interviewer
So your rock world and your alternative world all comes from this. These moments that you guys are creating. That's pretty cool.
[39:47]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, that must be. Yeah. Again, I go back to that genre stuff, the diversity, and that was really important to me as a musician.
[39:57]
Interviewer
It was a conscious kind of decision, too.
[39:58]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. I wanted to go into a lot of different directions because, again, the gift, having the great singer, we were able to. I was able to do anything. I mean, it was this.
[40:07]
Interviewer
Well, you know, once you have success, then they're gonna.
[40:09]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah. It just works.
[40:12]
Pat Benatar
Because Peter Coleman was such an incredible teacher.
[40:15]
Neil Giraldo
Great, great engineer. Oh, my God.
[40:17]
Pat Benatar
He was so. He just was like. He knew what we had as individuals. He knew what we had when we came together. And he was all about giving us a safe space to go.
[40:30]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, he was great.
[40:31]
Pat Benatar
There was no, like, nothing was wrong. Nothing wasn't okay. Everything was. Try. Throw everything against the wall. Because we had the capability to do that. We were able to do that the way that, you know, because one of us, me, didn't have a clue. I was willing to do anything.
[40:51]
Neil Giraldo
She was great back then. What the A and R said he could do anything. I could do anything I want. And she was like, okay, okay.
[40:59]
Interviewer
So is the internal conversation, hey, are you. I'm speaking as if that was him. Are you willing to let me kind of throw you where I want to throw you and see what works? And you're like, cool, let's have fun.
[41:10]
Neil Giraldo
Let's have fun.
[41:11]
Interviewer
Let's do it. So your lack of knowledge, and so let's call the rock side of the equation helped him figure out who you were.
[41:19]
Pat Benatar
It was a bl. It helped me figure out who I was.
[41:21]
Interviewer
Well, what's so amazing about that and credit to both of you is. Is whatever came out sounded like you in the fan's mind. Like, that sound is you. Like, there's no other sound. That's you. So that's where I was a fan.
[41:34]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[41:34]
Pat Benatar
And that was the part that I heard in my head.
[41:37]
Interviewer
Well, that's what's amazing. So from a nerd question, I was always struck. And again, I was listening today. The guitar always seemed to be cleaner than I wanted it to be. Was that a conscious decision to make room for her voice?
[41:52]
Neil Giraldo
Or. Or did you.
[41:53]
Interviewer
Or did you. Because the songs rocked. It's not like when you cranked them up, they sounded amazing. We had the classic tube stereo in the middle of my father being a musician. That's where they did all their cocaine. You know, we had a really loud stereo. I had the first two records and cranked them. Right. They sound great. But I'm saying, from a nerd point of view, was that space conscious? Like you were talking about space before, not conscious.
[42:16]
Neil Giraldo
Only thing was, is when I. I never liked the overly distorted guitar because I couldn't hear the articulation. And I love playing.
[42:23]
Interviewer
You always played Strats back then, right?
[42:25]
Neil Giraldo
No.
[42:26]
Interviewer
What was it? I remember you playing Strats live. Or is that it?
[42:29]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. No, no, I did Strats and tellies.
[42:31]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[42:32]
Neil Giraldo
BC Rich gave me guitars in the early 80s as well, and I used those too, as well with the Humberkers, that kind of stuff. But I always had a cleaner tone. Even if I play with a distorted amp, it always came out cleaner. And I don't know why.
[42:44]
Interviewer
It's just the way you.
[42:45]
Neil Giraldo
I think it's a way I attack heavy strings, real heavy strings. I fight the guitar.
[42:50]
Interviewer
Okay. Maybe that's part of it.
[42:51]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[42:51]
Interviewer
Because your sounds so distinctive.
[42:53]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[42:53]
Interviewer
Now, as a kid, I wanted more like heaviness.
[42:56]
Pat Benatar
Sure.
[42:56]
Neil Giraldo
Well, you guys had.
[42:57]
Interviewer
Yeah, but I'm saying I always wanted that. I always wanted that. And even live, I've heard live recordings where it's a little bit more like typical rock sound, but missing the records. Now, the genius of it is the clarity is there. Cause it's really about celebrating your voice.
[43:10]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. Always. It was always.
[43:12]
Interviewer
The older producer in me says that was the right.
[43:15]
Neil Giraldo
Always.
[43:15]
Interviewer
As a kid, though, I wanted more
[43:16]
Neil Giraldo
like loud, for sure. No, it's always about spatial. The V. Listen, nobody's going to be walking around singing guitar parts. You listen it to the vocal. That's the most important thing. Yes.
[43:25]
Pat Benatar
He was the most generous person. He was yards ahead of me when we started. Yards.
[43:33]
Interviewer
How about now, though, we're equal?
[43:36]
Neil Giraldo
Well, I'm a little bit. Just a little
[43:40]
Pat Benatar
Scott. But my point is, he was years ahead of me, yards ahead of me in that area of the world.
[43:48]
Interviewer
I get an idea.
[43:49]
Pat Benatar
It wasn't like I wasn't a school musician. I was, but not here. This was fascinating to me because I had all this. I had all of this education and I could articulate and I could. You know, I could basically sing in anything that I wanted to sing in except this, really. So this was nothing but fun. But he was so generous. This was the. I can't even tell you what a glorious first time this was, because everyone that was in there, we were all about the good of the whole. He was Always about. He was last. He made himself last all the time. It was always about the song. It was always about the performance of the song. And that's what he did. He did. I mean, the arrangements. He did working and working. And he was learning engineering. He learned in, like, moment. And it was amazing because I was. It gave me that bed that I was looking for. Of freedom and safety. That I could fly.
[44:59]
Interviewer
Yeah. Okay, so now you're on tour, you're still. You're feeling these feelings. Like, at what point does this dam break open where you're like, okay, before
[45:09]
Pat Benatar
we go on tour?
[45:11]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Before the first show. Yeah.
[45:14]
Pat Benatar
His girlfriend breaks up with him and he. We're sitting at lunch, and meanwhile, you know, I'm pretty much gonna commit suicide. Cause I can't take it any longer. We've made this whole record. I'm going to kill myself, and I don't know what to do anymore. And I don't want to screw this up. And I'm trying to be my Capricorn self and not so. And I'm a very pragmatic, grounded human. And I'm dying. And he sits down and he says, I have to talk to you. And I'm like, oh, he's going to quit the band. We didn't even get out. We didn't even go, okay, all right, fine, I'm going. We're going to go have a drink together in the afternoon after rehearsal. And he says, you know, she's leaving me. And I'm like, you have no idea. Like, I'm like this. I'm like, oh, God. I'm like, going, yes. Because I'm like the Catholic girl who would never take another girl's boyfriend.
[46:06]
Interviewer
See, back to Roman Catholics.
[46:08]
Neil Giraldo
There it is.
[46:08]
Interviewer
We're back to that.
[46:09]
Pat Benatar
This never happened. I am a principled person. I would never do this. All he had to do is say that. Done.
[46:20]
Interviewer
Sorry. Laughed.
[46:21]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, I know. I laughed to myself.
[46:25]
Interviewer
So 79ish. You guys are doing the. Are you doing those tours, like, back then, where they just throw you on as an opening act?
[46:32]
Neil Giraldo
Where you do it for a minute in the beginning? Yeah.
[46:34]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, for a minute.
[46:35]
Interviewer
But then the record takes off and then you're.
[46:36]
Pat Benatar
We get fired. We get fired. We can't. They can't go on after us. People that we're opening for can't go on after us. We get fired.
[46:43]
Interviewer
You want to name any names? Who fired you? I want to know.
[46:47]
Neil Giraldo
It wasn't. Not fired.
[46:48]
Pat Benatar
Well, you know, they want you to go home.
[46:50]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Not fired.
[46:52]
Interviewer
They don't want you to look better than they.
[46:53]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, we once. It was funny at the very beginning, we opened for Eddie Money and. And he was a. He's a great guy.
[46:59]
Interviewer
I've met Eddie. He's right out of all central casting.
[47:02]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, he's like, terrific. Yeah, he's like Rodney Danger film. Totally. And he's. And his mother came up to us, just says, you know, you guys should be closing Eddie. You should be opening up. His mother toss us down. Oh, my God.
[47:14]
Pat Benatar
No. Yeah, so.
[47:15]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, it was.
[47:16]
Pat Benatar
We didn't. We didn't do very.
[47:17]
Neil Giraldo
It didn't last long.
[47:18]
Pat Benatar
It didn't last very long at all. We went straight to arenas. We didn't even.
[47:21]
Interviewer
Well, not are on the first album.
[47:22]
Neil Giraldo
No, no, no, no. We went from clubs. And then it started. Yeah. Then it started going up free it.
[47:28]
Pat Benatar
Because it got crazy, like, really fast.
[47:30]
Neil Giraldo
Theaters, bigger theaters.
[47:32]
Pat Benatar
We went to theaters and it was
[47:33]
Interviewer
like, you know, did you. Because if you're not a rock singer in. In miles, which is kind of what you're saying, when you went on the road, did you find it was hard to adjust at all?
[47:45]
Pat Benatar
No.
[47:45]
Interviewer
Oh, you loved it.
[47:46]
Pat Benatar
I always loved it because not everybody
[47:49]
Interviewer
can make that transition.
[47:50]
Pat Benatar
I was like, in my element. I could sing every day and I was traveling.
[47:56]
Interviewer
I loved it because the way things work these days, like, people gave me tapes, you know, and maybe it's because we're in an age of empowerment, but a lot of females will give me, you know, they give me advice and you can tell. They don't. They haven't really sung on stage. They don't have that 10,000 hours thing. Oh, yeah, it can sing fine. It just doesn't have the.
[48:16]
Neil Giraldo
Understood.
[48:16]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, but I had always performed. I did okay.
[48:18]
Interviewer
That's when I was curious if that was a challenge.
[48:20]
Pat Benatar
I was a competitive performer too.
[48:22]
Interviewer
Well, but, you know, back then, the monitoring wasn't so great.
[48:24]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, no, it was terrible.
[48:25]
Pat Benatar
We didn't have. I sang acoustically, you know, I sang opera. We didn't have.
[48:32]
Interviewer
Yeah, but again, rock is a different animal.
[48:34]
Pat Benatar
But I'm saying that performance was not an issue to me.
[48:37]
Interviewer
Okay.
[48:37]
Pat Benatar
It was easy.
[48:38]
Interviewer
That's cool.
[48:38]
Pat Benatar
That was a piece of cake.
[48:39]
Interviewer
Yeah. I thought this was cool. I didn't know this. You better run was the second MTV video ever played.
[48:45]
Pat Benatar
First female, first guitar player on mtv.
[48:49]
Interviewer
Well, yeah, but the first one video killed the radio Star wasn't too far off. No Grammy Award for best female vocal on it would have been. Hit me with your best shot.
[49:01]
Pat Benatar
No, it was Crimes of Passion. And it was the whole record. It was.
[49:04]
Neil Giraldo
Was that it?
[49:05]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. 80. 1980.
[49:07]
Interviewer
Okay, let me see here. I want to know this because I believe you guys are co writes on this song, but tell me this. Let me read this, and then you tell me who wrote this lyric. They cry in the dark so you can't see their tears. They hide in the light so you can't see their fears. Forgive and forget all the while love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of a wounded child. Who wrote that lyric? I want to thank you.
[49:32]
Neil Giraldo
Great. Yeah.
[49:34]
Interviewer
That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.
[49:39]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, good.
[49:39]
Interviewer
Thank you for that.
[49:40]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. I love that song. We hear that a lot from people.
[49:43]
Interviewer
I bet you do.
[49:44]
Neil Giraldo
The hurt and wounded. Yeah.
[49:46]
Interviewer
I'm getting chills just talking about it,
[49:47]
Neil Giraldo
because that was the line that gets me is, be a good little boy and you get a new toy. Tell grandma you fell off the swing. That is. That just ripped.
[49:55]
Interviewer
Thank you for that. Because it's hard to explain, and obviously we live in different times, but back then, there was so little information if you were being abused. Yeah. That. Just somebody acknowledging. Because when you would go to your family back then, they'd say, well, that's what happens. Or we. That's how we were raised. You go to the neighbor kids, and they were all getting their asses kicked, too. So to hear somebody on a record that I admired singing about what I was going through was like, whoa, that's the connection.
[50:21]
Neil Giraldo
That's fantastic.
[50:22]
Pat Benatar
About this song was Hell is for Children.
[50:25]
Neil Giraldo
Is this Hell is for Children?
[50:29]
Pat Benatar
The incarnation of this song happened when we were in New York, and Roger Capps, who was our bass player for many years there, we were reading. There was a serial article that came out in the Times for a couple of weekends. Neither of us had ever heard about this happening. We didn't experience. I didn't know anybody that.
[50:51]
Interviewer
Are you talking about sort of abuse, ritual abuse, or just kids being abused?
[50:55]
Pat Benatar
Just anything. Any part of abuse. I didn't. I mean. I mean, kids got spanked. I never heard about the horrors of, like, abusing children. I mean, he. You know, we grew up in, like, really good families. You know what I'm saying? We didn't know any of this stuff, and I was horrified. So what do I do when I'm. When anything influences me like that? I just start writing. Like, I write, I just write. I write, I write. And when we got most of it, Roger wrote. Of course, Roger wrote a lot of it as well. And we Handed it over to Spider. We said, can you make this. Can you make the pain in these words happen with that guitar? Can you make this arrangement do this? And he said, gimme it. And that's what we did.
[51:40]
Neil Giraldo
Well, melodically, it was a whole scope. It was meant to start off real somber.
[51:44]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[51:45]
Neil Giraldo
And then you start getting a little angry, and then you're really off. That's kind of the. Well, it works. It works.
[51:51]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. In the beginning, we had two things happen, which was really interesting. We had the religious right boycotting our concerts.
[51:58]
Interviewer
Okay. I didn't know this part. They were protesting outside because you were calling out child abuse.
[52:03]
Pat Benatar
Yes. You know what Ted Cruz just did, right? You know what he did?
[52:05]
Interviewer
Mm.
[52:05]
Pat Benatar
Ted Cruz. I don't know.
[52:07]
Neil Giraldo
A couple of months ago, a year
[52:10]
Pat Benatar
by now, maybe it is.
[52:11]
Neil Giraldo
I don't know.
[52:11]
Pat Benatar
He's talking about Biden and, you know, and blah, blah, blah. Biden's this. And he's like the evildoer and all this kind of stuff. And it's. He said it's like. Like it. He says, picture Biden howling at the moon, having Pat Makar sing Hell is for Children. I was like, you.
[52:25]
Neil Giraldo
It said it literally like, hell is for children.
[52:29]
Pat Benatar
This is why the religious right boycotted. They protested at our concerts.
[52:33]
Neil Giraldo
They burned the records.
[52:34]
Pat Benatar
In the meantime, while this was happening, we were getting bags of mail. Our post office was like, what do you want us to do with this? It was like being Santa Claus. That's how much mail we got from people like yourself. What you just said.
[52:48]
Interviewer
Yeah. It's interesting, right?
[52:49]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[52:50]
Interviewer
Now, of course, with these things are talked about so openly. In fact, just to give you some relatability, when I started talking about child abuse in my songs in the early 90s, I was accused of using as a marketing gimmick.
[53:03]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, yeah.
[53:03]
Pat Benatar
Oh, no.
[53:04]
Interviewer
And then I would. And even to this day, it still happens. Not so much anymore. But people will ask me to qualify the abuse.
[53:09]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous.
[53:12]
Interviewer
How bad was it? And I said, well, you know, nobody tore my arm off and beat me over the head with it, but are we doing the abuse Olympics? Like, am I supposed to win a gold medal?
[53:21]
Pat Benatar
Yeah. What amount? What amount?
[53:23]
Interviewer
Yeah. I even had a horrific experience where a family member. I told this person about a lot of stuff that I've been through, and they gave me a book about a boy who was horribly abused. I think it was called, like, a boy called it or something. And the abuse was like. It was so shocking with this poor child went through and. But I remember reading the book and thinking, okay, that happened to me. There was stuff in there like, you know, you go days without food or being locked out of your house in the cold, all these weird. And I was like, okay, that happened to me. And about. There were nine things in the book. This person certainly had it worse than I did. But there were nine things in the book that I'd been through, like, you know, like a check mark. And so after I finished reading the book, the family member said, did you. Did you like that book that I got you? And I said, oh, yeah, it really, really touched me, you know. And they said, yeah, I thought it would help. And I started kind of explaining what I just explained to you. And they go, oh, no, no, no, you misunderstood. I wanted you to understand that you got. You. You shouldn't be complaining.
[54:22]
Pat Benatar
Oh my God.
[54:24]
Interviewer
Because. Because this person had it worse than you. So that's. I've done a lot of different times, advocacy for abused kids. But what I always say is, you know, if you've been abused, absolutely, you don't have to. There's nothing to prove.
[54:37]
Neil Giraldo
No, of course not. This is ridiculous. To even ask like, this that would
[54:41]
Pat Benatar
be acceptable is insane. And it's not like a contest. Like, what are we talking about? That's insane.
[54:47]
Interviewer
I mean, probably as short as the last few years I've had like, big reporters ask me to qualify my abuse.
[54:52]
Neil Giraldo
Still, they talk about it.
[54:54]
Pat Benatar
That's insane.
[54:54]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, that's ridiculous.
[54:55]
Pat Benatar
That's crazy.
[54:56]
Neil Giraldo
That's ridiculous.
[54:56]
Interviewer
Well, we live in a crazy business.
[54:58]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, that's no good.
[55:02]
Interviewer
So precious time, now you're producing.
[55:06]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, well, I was producing as well.
[55:09]
Interviewer
Yeah, now your name's on the record.
[55:11]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, now they said it was okay to put my name on it.
[55:13]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, he was doing it before.
[55:16]
Interviewer
There's.
[55:17]
Neil Giraldo
It.
[55:17]
Interviewer
I'm not saying it stops being rock, but there seems to be a shift towards maybe a wider palette. Was that deliberate? Yeah, of course. So what was your aim?
[55:27]
Neil Giraldo
I. I didn't want to be 8th note guitar driven songs anymore. There was. I wanted it to be. I wanted to spread out, open up. I want to use different instruments. I want different rhythms. I play drums. I love drums. I used to play drums to Simon and Garfunkel Records because they had no drums. So I used to play my own rhythm.
[55:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
[55:45]
Neil Giraldo
So everything's rhythm to me.
[55:46]
Interviewer
Okay. Right.
[55:46]
Neil Giraldo
And I wanted to explore more rhythm within different instruments. Doing it, you know. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
[55:51]
Interviewer
And what was your.
[55:53]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, you know, we were grown up now.
[55:55]
Neil Giraldo
She was cool. I mean, I. After we do a record, the next day I would write something and I. Completely different and maybe hand it to the record company and go, why can't you just do the same thing again? I go, no, no. I want to keep changing and keep evolving.
[56:10]
Interviewer
Yeah. I didn't know if that was, you know, that was intentional because we're all been in that situation where somebody's trying to push you never.
[56:16]
Pat Benatar
They can't ever do anything.
[56:17]
Neil Giraldo
They.
[56:17]
Interviewer
Well, now that I've met you, I
[56:19]
Neil Giraldo
get that the record company turned down many things that I handed in that became hits.
[56:25]
Pat Benatar
Sure.
[56:25]
Neil Giraldo
Because I. I refused to change them because I wanted to walk me through
[56:29]
Interviewer
that process a little bit. Because. Because this. I think I. I like talking about these things publicly because these are things we talk about privately in the music business. Imagine you're on top, you've got hit records, you're on mtv, you're young, you think everything's going the right direction. And there's some guy in the office going, nah, nah, I don't feel it.
[56:47]
Neil Giraldo
That's what happened a lot. Yeah. I'll give an example with Love is a Battlefield is. I had the whole song done in my head, the whole thing. Like the architectural look of it. I had the rhythm. I had all this kind of thing going on. It was my first day. I had a lindrum. I just was randomly playing a beat on it. I made a mistake, made an eight bar phrase, a seven bar phrase. I liked the rhythm of it. I was starting to build it, but I had all the parts. I had everything all working. And even our engineer co produced with me. Peter Coleman was ready to tell me that. I think you need to listen to record company. And I don't think. I think we need to do this some different way. Same. Yeah, a different way. I says, I'm not gonna do that, Pete. He goes, okay, let me listen to it tonight. So he goes home, he never drinks. He doesn't drink. He drinks half a bottle of cognac. He realizes as he's with those altic speakers. You remember those? Altix. He had those in his. Huh. He played the demo. Not the demo. He played where we were at with it. And he finally realized, went, oh my God, I think Neil's on to something. So he came in the next day. He goes, I support you for whatever we need. So I wouldn't. I refused to.
[57:54]
Interviewer
I covered that song once. You probably have never heard it, but never heard it. It was bootlegged out, but it's. I did for A movie.
[58:00]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, yeah. That's cool.
[58:01]
Interviewer
I did this. Really. I tried to find it because I. I thought I'd mention. And if I could, I could play free on a phone, but I can't find it, but, oh, I'd love to hear it. I'll send it to you. No problem. But it's like a really sad acoustic version. Yes. If you slow it.
[58:16]
Neil Giraldo
That was kind of.
[58:17]
Interviewer
I didn't know that began like that.
[58:18]
Neil Giraldo
But then I heard this thing. I heard it quicker. I just. It just. It just happened.
[58:24]
Interviewer
Yeah. Because as a fan, when you guys went there, I didn't get it. I now. I think it's. Now I love it. I think it's amazing.
[58:30]
Neil Giraldo
Here's a tip. Here's what I did a lot. I love doing this. I do. This is. I believe that life of records have a longer shelf life. If you don't like it when you
[58:40]
Interviewer
first hear it, that's interesting.
[58:42]
Neil Giraldo
It's really important because you're unsure. You can't understand what's going on. Like, what is he thinking about? Like, what is it? And then you listen to the guy to go, wait a minute, what's going on here?
[58:52]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[58:52]
Neil Giraldo
Then if it works. Yeah, they love it for life.
[58:56]
Pat Benatar
Like cilantro.
[58:58]
Neil Giraldo
That's all like cilantro.
[59:00]
Interviewer
But see, like, this is my own version. But like, when I first started song, it didn't get it. And obviously it's a big hit. And I saw the video and the right crazy stuff and. And then when I was doing this soundtrack in 2001 for a movie called Spun, it was about a bunch of meth addicts. And the director was like, what do you want to do musically? And I said, because I'd done enough drugs that I. I thought, what would people want to listen to if they're coming off a drug? So in my mind, it was acoustic, but I didn't want to do Crosby, Stills and Nash. Correct. So I had this idea. And now, of course, we hear it everywhere we go to caf, but it was the idea of taking popular songs but kind of making them kind of sad acoustic songs. Sure. So that song kind of popped out of the ether of me. And then I did this cover originally
[59:47]
Neil Giraldo
written as a ballad, as about slow, slow, slow down.
[59:51]
Pat Benatar
But then I'm like. And he's like, no.
[59:54]
Neil Giraldo
And I go, it's just like. I just heard. That's fantastic. Bo Diddley on some sort of medication. Yeah. But I just did with the Lynn joke.
[60:05]
Pat Benatar
You told him that?
[60:05]
Neil Giraldo
I just did.
[60:06]
Pat Benatar
I didn't hear that.
[60:06]
Interviewer
You Were thinking about your contractors.
[60:09]
Neil Giraldo
I did it with. We belong to the same thing. A lot of rhythm. Wacky. Like, why do you have to. Why can't you just play on the keyboard? Why do you have to have it? All this stuff going on. But that's what I do.
[60:20]
Pat Benatar
They were constantly in our face all the time.
[60:24]
Interviewer
That's so crazy to me. I mean, I went through the same things.
[60:27]
Neil Giraldo
It's all the same.
[60:28]
Pat Benatar
They're in your face. And we gave them a control on the. On the console. On the console that we said, well, you know, you just. You know, you think you can change a few things. It was attached to nothing. And they would go. And they would go. And then we come back and they go, what do you think? We go. You know, it's actually an improvement. That's really great. And meanwhile, they did absolutely nothing. But they drove us nuts. But we never. It was always like this to me. You know what I mean? Like, really. Yeah. I get you.
[61:00]
Interviewer
Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I'm just in my own head. Cause it's like those experiences just always blow my mind.
[61:05]
Neil Giraldo
They're all the same. They're all the same. Everybody goes through them.
[61:08]
Interviewer
It's just crazy.
[61:09]
Neil Giraldo
It's crazy.
[61:10]
Pat Benatar
But you know, what if we're the artists and they're not, and they're the car salesman, and I get that. And they're really good at that. But if they were us, they would be doing it, but they're not, and they're never gonna be us. And they don't get it.
[61:21]
Interviewer
Ever.
[61:22]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[61:23]
Interviewer
So as your relationship goes public, or it is public, how is that sort of. How did you navigate that? And I'm saying it from the context of, you know, we had a female when we started in our van for the first, you know, 10, 12 years. And I saw this weird sexist stuff go on. So I can only imagine what people were putting on you. Both just as a female, but also a female in a relationship.
[61:48]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. Well, I can.
[61:50]
Interviewer
Let me. Sorry.
[61:51]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[61:53]
Interviewer
I mean, this is a compliment. When I think of you two together, I don't just like. I can't think of any gossip. I can't. I've never heard any gossip on you guys.
[62:03]
Neil Giraldo
We could start something if you want.
[62:04]
Interviewer
Okay. But I'm. You guys have had. Your. Your relationship is very quiet, right?
[62:09]
Pat Benatar
It is quiet.
[62:10]
Interviewer
We try to keep it. I can't think of a single thing that, you know. You know, people talk in studios. I've never heard an unkind word about either of you. I've Never heard, like, oh, this or that.
[62:19]
Pat Benatar
Like, it's by design.
[62:21]
Neil Giraldo
They used to say, like, so that's
[62:23]
Interviewer
kind of what I'm after. What were they saying? Because they must have been curious.
[62:27]
Neil Giraldo
I think in the beginning, they. They called me. What was I?
[62:30]
Pat Benatar
Svengali.
[62:31]
Neil Giraldo
It was like, Svengali. It was. Who was the guy with the. The pretty girl wife?
[62:36]
Interviewer
Rick Ocasek?
[62:38]
Neil Giraldo
No, no, no. He was. What's that guy's name? Was a director. It was a director. And they. They called me that guy. I can't remember the name. His director and his wife was real pretty. Was the 10. Was the movie called 10? Oh, Derek.
[62:55]
Interviewer
Oh, John Derek. So you were John Derek. Well, that's nice.
[62:57]
Neil Giraldo
John Derek. John was like, kind of like that Pink Panther, John Derek.
[63:01]
Interviewer
That was a terrible comparison.
[63:01]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. No, but that, like, this is the guy that was kind of doing all this stuff, and he was controlling and doing all this, you know.
[63:07]
Interviewer
Okay, so that's. So there's a perfect example. So what's the implication? You're some puppet robot and he's really the.
[63:14]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, for like eight seconds.
[63:17]
Neil Giraldo
I mean, I wouldn't let.
[63:18]
Pat Benatar
That lasted eight seconds because I was
[63:20]
Neil Giraldo
like, I wouldn't let that be. That's just. That's just silliness.
[63:24]
Interviewer
So when he starts doing this. Other productions, I assume you're supportive with this because, like, Rick Springfield and.
[63:29]
Neil Giraldo
Of course.
[63:29]
Interviewer
And all this other stuff.
[63:30]
Pat Benatar
Sure.
[63:31]
Interviewer
So I just talked to Rick Springfield a couple days ago.
[63:33]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, that's fantastic.
[63:34]
Interviewer
And he mentioned you.
[63:35]
Pat Benatar
He's a good friend.
[63:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. What a sweetheart. But again, like, so now when I think of Jesse's girl and knowing you're on it, and I never knew that until the other day, it's like, well, duh, now I hear you.
[63:47]
Neil Giraldo
Sure. Yeah. It's kind of funny. It's the story of my life. Yeah. It's the only number one single. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've done a ton of stuff, and I don't go around making noise with it and stuff.
[64:01]
Interviewer
I didn't know you'd done this song. And I love this song. John Wayt changed.
[64:04]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, yeah. A producer song.
[64:05]
Interviewer
But again, the minute I saw that you did it, I went back and listened to it. Cause I was like, is that the. And I was like, what you did, I love in that song. But I never knew that was you.
[64:14]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was his first solo record. And, you know anybody I've ever worked with.
[64:19]
Interviewer
Was he from the babies, John?
[64:20]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, babies. But everybody I've ever worked with, they were I've never had a falling out with anybody, you know, I produce a record for them. We're still friends, you know.
[64:32]
Pat Benatar
Hart, he did. Steve Forbert, he did. Did you do the Dellards?
[64:37]
Neil Giraldo
Oh yeah. Dello, sure. Dillard's, Dellords.
[64:40]
Interviewer
Oh, sorry. I like the Dillards, if you remember.
[64:42]
Neil Giraldo
No, no, the Dictators.
[64:43]
Pat Benatar
The Dictators turned into.
[64:45]
Neil Giraldo
My good brother friend. Scott Kepner was with the Dictators. He formed Del Lord's great band.
[64:49]
Interviewer
So you're also having success as a producer. Was that any. Not tension. I'm not looking for gossip. It's like did you feel like you had to make choices or. No, it was outside of your professional relationship.
[65:01]
Neil Giraldo
Anyway, the only choices I made, you know, I. Ozzy wanted me to make a record for him and I. I wanted to do it. That. How was it now?
[65:08]
Interviewer
When was that?
[65:10]
Neil Giraldo
It was right after that record that was called Howl at the Moon. Was that the name of the record?
[65:14]
Interviewer
Yeah, Bark at the Moon.
[65:15]
Neil Giraldo
Bark at the Moon. It was going to be the next record and I couldn't do the record because we were going on the road and I. I wanted to give him enough time. I was talking back then, I was talking about doing real life loops, but not, not digital loops. Just a lot of different creativity in the. In the process of making a record. And we got on really well and I didn't do that record. I really wanted to do it, but I couldn't because we had to go on the road. Yeah, so that was the pro. The problem was I didn't have the time.
[65:42]
Interviewer
That's kind of what I was after is like I didn't have the balance of choices.
[65:45]
Neil Giraldo
I had a band I really liked too. I wanted to do too. I didn't have time. Swimming pool cues, do you remember them?
[65:50]
Interviewer
I do remember. That was kind of my generation.
[65:53]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Yeah, they were cool. I like those guys and gals.
[65:56]
Interviewer
It seems around 85 that your output, obviously collectively your output becomes a little bit more sparse. Is that. Was there a reason for that child?
[66:04]
Pat Benatar
We have our first show.
[66:05]
Interviewer
So is that because you want to devote more time to your family or is it.
[66:08]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, we still made a record every year until 89, I believe.
[66:12]
Pat Benatar
Yeah, we were contracted to do it
[66:14]
Interviewer
every nine months, but it seems you can feel somewhere around 85 there's this change.
[66:19]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, we changed. We went into a different direction.
[66:21]
Pat Benatar
But it also did this really cool thing. I mean it did. It was never going back to what it was before. Never. But we did.
[66:27]
Interviewer
Can you explain that a little bit?
[66:28]
Pat Benatar
Yes, I mean, it was because we had a baby now and you talk about sexism. There was no handbook for this. Okay, let me tell you about this. And they. Because we were contracted to do a record every nine months, they sat me down. I remember it was terrible. I was breastfeeding. That baby was probably. How old is she? Four weeks, five, six weeks old. We have to have a lunch and they're going to talk to me. Now I'm breastfeeding and I'm like freaking out. And I got it all padded in my shirt because I'm going to have to leave my child for the first time. And it's not even two months. And they're telling me that, okay, that's great you guys had a baby and all that, but chop, chop. Okay? So we're at lunch and you can't talk about a baby as you know, because you have them with your wife when you are breastfeeding. Because the minute you talk about the child, your body reacts. I had to go in the bathroom of the goddamn restaurant we were in and ring out everything because I was experiencing letdown and there was no slack. They didn't care. They didn't care about that I had a newborn. And all they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records.
[67:50]
Interviewer
Were you there?
[67:52]
Neil Giraldo
Probably, yes. I'm pretty passive. See, I blocked it out.
[67:56]
Pat Benatar
Or put us on extension and that. Because.
[67:59]
Interviewer
Explain extensions.
[68:00]
Pat Benatar
Extension means that if you don't do a record in a certain amount of time, they will freeze all of your royalties and everything else. And then the contract extends.
[68:09]
Interviewer
Extends.
[68:09]
Pat Benatar
Okay, so.
[68:10]
Neil Giraldo
Which is not great.
[68:12]
Pat Benatar
And I had our baby outside in a Winnebago with my parents watching that child so that I could go in there and make that goddamn record. And you know what the name of that record was? 7 the hard way. So talk about sexism. Oh, yeah, and misogyny right there. No slack. And I talked to Chrissy. I talked to Chrissy backstage and I said to her, she had Natalie. And I said, how are you doing this? And she said, I'm not. Because that was the part. Like I had conquered all that boys club and everything else. But this next part. Oh, no, this is something else altogether. And that took time. So that's why that slowed down. Because I had to navigate, learn how to do this, go in guns blazing and figure out how to make them stop and be able to go in there and do what we had to Do.
[69:05]
Interviewer
Yeah. And your side of this equation, are you just working?
[69:08]
Neil Giraldo
I'm just working. I'm so deep. I still am to this day. I'm just so deep into that. I used to have a philosophy. It's wrong. It's wrong. When it was passive and assertive. In the studio, I'm very assertive. She's very passive in the studio. In real life, outside of the studio, I'm very passive. She's very assertive. I used to think that was the right. I was thinking that's the right way, but it's really not, because you gotta kinda be equal. But I mean, he was supportive, but support always.
[69:36]
Interviewer
Oh, I get that.
[69:36]
Neil Giraldo
Easygoing.
[69:38]
Pat Benatar
It wasn't his fight, it was my fight.
[69:39]
Interviewer
Okay, so. Because I think it's important because I think the music business is still grappling with, for lack of a better word, balance.
[69:50]
Pat Benatar
The universe is grappling with balance.
[69:52]
Interviewer
Okay? But let's stick to the music business.
[69:54]
Neil Giraldo
Don't go political.
[69:55]
Interviewer
We can't solve all.
[69:56]
Pat Benatar
I wasn't going political.
[69:57]
Neil Giraldo
That was leaning. No, no.
[69:58]
Interviewer
What I'm. I didn't mean it that way. I'm saying is. What I'm saying is, is because you're so respected. I think the question. I think to ask is, what would have been the optimal circumstance in that? And just pause on that one second. Because people in the music business are just now starting to grapple with mental health issues. Look, how many people in my generation are gone and were gone by way too early and would be out there, by the way, to all you capitalists would still be out there making money.
[70:28]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, that's true.
[70:30]
Interviewer
And they gave two with those people driving off cliffs.
[70:33]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, true, right. No question. I felt that yesterday.
[70:37]
Interviewer
So I have an answer. If you ask me what should be the position of the music business vis a vis mental health, they finally started at least dealing with the drug issues. So the question I want to ask you is, what would it for you as a mother, especially young mother, what would have been the optimal circumstance for you? So that it helps us sort of figure out how to do that going forward collectively?
[70:59]
Pat Benatar
Okay? You cannot separate this from the worldview. And I'm not talking about politics, okay? This is the worldview. It's like jumbo shrimp, okay? You can't separate the music business. The music business is just a tree.
[71:14]
Interviewer
How does jumbo shrimp get into that, though?
[71:16]
Pat Benatar
Because it's an oxymoron. It's like, you can't be. You can't. You are still. No matter. I don't Care what you do for a living. It is. You can have it all, but you sometimes cannot have it all at once.
[71:29]
Interviewer
Okay.
[71:29]
Pat Benatar
Okay, so this is my point. This is what happens. I don't care what you do for a living. If you are the female and you are having the babies, there is a path that doesn't change. I don't care who you are or what you do.
[71:45]
Interviewer
Okay, so practically time off.
[71:48]
Pat Benatar
Yes. If you would have given me six months. If you would have just been a little bit kinder and more compassionate. It didn't even like. It was like, okay, you know, like, get a nanny, you know, basically.
[72:02]
Interviewer
I see.
[72:02]
Pat Benatar
It was the most misogyny.
[72:05]
Interviewer
I don't want to say what they're doing now.
[72:06]
Pat Benatar
Right. I know, but it was disgusting. It was disgusting. And, you know, for being their premier person, it didn't matter a goddamn bit. Nothing.
[72:15]
Interviewer
That's hard to hear.
[72:17]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. It's real.
[72:20]
Interviewer
Is it true you haven't made an album since 2003? Correct.
[72:24]
Neil Giraldo
Maybe. Yeah.
[72:25]
Interviewer
That's what I saw. And I was like. I had a hard time believing.
[72:28]
Neil Giraldo
Seems like a long time.
[72:29]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's a long time. Over 20 years.
[72:32]
Neil Giraldo
I know.
[72:33]
Pat Benatar
In doing it either.
[72:34]
Interviewer
Okay, tell me why, though.
[72:35]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, I mean, I'm still writing. I still write a ton. A lot. I did film scores. I do films and stuff.
[72:42]
Pat Benatar
We have 150 songs written.
[72:44]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[72:44]
Pat Benatar
I think.
[72:44]
Neil Giraldo
I. I don't know. It's like, I. I don't. I don't see. I don't see, like, what's. I can't put this into words. I don't see like a 360 view for a whole record. I don't see that. I don't know.
[73:05]
Interviewer
Is it circumstantial for you?
[73:07]
Neil Giraldo
Like, it's hard. It's hard to articulate this. It's like, I want. I want a record that. Where song one, the song 13, all makes sense in itself. Togetherness. And I don't have that. Cause it's so diverse. There's so much diversity. I don't want.
[73:22]
Interviewer
Is it because of the changes in the business or the changes in the music?
[73:24]
Neil Giraldo
No, no. Just us has nothing to do with the business. I don't care.
[73:28]
Interviewer
I'm just trying to understand.
[73:29]
Neil Giraldo
No, not that. It's just from an artistic point of view, there's no path for this, for that.
[73:36]
Interviewer
But tell me what that means.
[73:38]
Pat Benatar
It means that the amount of time.
[73:41]
Neil Giraldo
Well, that's different for her, to me, so.
[73:43]
Pat Benatar
But I mean, I'm saying this for both of us. The amount of time and consideration and everything else. Else it is to give out that much art that no one is going to hear.
[73:53]
Interviewer
Okay. But see, this is where I can disagree with you. Yeah.
[73:56]
Neil Giraldo
I don't believe that. I'm not believing that.
[73:58]
Pat Benatar
That's my motivation.
[73:59]
Interviewer
No, no, no. But I want to parry with you a little bit because I'm curious about this.
[74:02]
Pat Benatar
So I.
[74:03]
Interviewer
Because I'm in a similar circumstance.
[74:06]
Pat Benatar
Yes.
[74:06]
Interviewer
You know what I mean? Because we're all facing. We're all looking at the same horizon.
[74:08]
Neil Giraldo
You would be. No question. I understood.
[74:12]
Interviewer
Okay.
[74:12]
Pat Benatar
It's not a loss for me.
[74:13]
Interviewer
Could I argue with you as a fan?
[74:16]
Pat Benatar
No, I understand that part. I do. And I understand.
[74:18]
Interviewer
Can I give you a slightly different take on that?
[74:19]
Pat Benatar
Yes.
[74:20]
Interviewer
Okay. I'm asking permission.
[74:22]
Neil Giraldo
You got permission.
[74:23]
Interviewer
Thank you.
[74:24]
Pat Benatar
It's only because I'm older. It's okay.
[74:27]
Interviewer
Let me say it as sort of an overall comment because I've struggled with the same issue. So let's say we've all looked down the same telescope lens and we go, hey, back in the day, at least there was this straight line, do this, do this, do this, get it right. You win and you feel it and you're there. Now, as we say often in my group, who knows what success is anymore? The business is basically reduced to who can sell tickets.
[74:52]
Neil Giraldo
That's what it is.
[74:53]
Pat Benatar
That's correct.
[74:54]
Interviewer
Music has just become a marketing tool to sell tickets.
[74:57]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[74:58]
Interviewer
We grew up in a time where it was the other way around.
[74:59]
Neil Giraldo
The other way around. No question.
[75:00]
Interviewer
Okay, so I understand the dynamics that you're.
[75:03]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[75:03]
Interviewer
But here's my one argument. And please argue with me if you disagree. I think that we all grew up with I hope I die before I get old.
[75:11]
Neil Giraldo
Yep. No question.
[75:12]
Interviewer
Right?
[75:12]
Neil Giraldo
Definitely.
[75:13]
Interviewer
We've all blown past that. And I'm not talking about, hey, I hope I can go see you guys play these great songs one more time. I'm talking about a new way of thinking because in many ways, we're tasked with how to change the way the business works because no one before us was put in this circumstance. So in many ways, we're the first people on this new planet, which is called social media over here and lack of a music business over here. So here's my one argument to you. I would be curious to hear from you where you're at right now.
[75:46]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[75:47]
Interviewer
And I don't give a if nobody else cares because there's only one you and only one you. And your partnership is valuable. And I'm not talking even about fans. Your voice in the wilderness of this says, I don't give a F. Just like how you started. I don't give a what you think.
[76:05]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[76:05]
Interviewer
I'm gonna do this because this is what I believe in. Now, if you say you don't need it, that's different.
[76:10]
Pat Benatar
I don't need it. But I agree with you. Here's. I agree with you that I think it is still valuable. I think that what we do is unique to us. Okay? However, the mechanism to get that where it needs to go.
[76:28]
Interviewer
I don't like you talking about streaming.
[76:31]
Neil Giraldo
No.
[76:31]
Pat Benatar
Any of it. Because my point is that if I was. If we did this record and we handed it to you to take to your house, I would love that. The idea that I have to hand this over to someone who's gonna now what you're gonna, like, market it, like, oh, it's a comeback.
[76:47]
Interviewer
But, you know, there's different business models. I don't know if you know about that.
[76:50]
Pat Benatar
I know.
[76:50]
Interviewer
Okay, good.
[76:51]
Pat Benatar
I do.
[76:52]
Interviewer
Cause that's what we're doing.
[76:53]
Pat Benatar
It is my qualm. My qualm is do not make this, like, here is a dinosaur partnership that we're gonna try to make, like, important today. Okay? Cause that's not what it is. It's important. Cause it just is. You know what I mean? So don't, like, put all this other crap that you're gonna put. I don't even know how to navigate what they're doing. I can learn. I'm really smart. But the point is, I don't want. Like, I am a principled person. You can't make me. You can't. I don't already like what you're saying. They're doing stuff. What are they doing now? They're putting our records out on colored vinyl. I'm like, oh, for God's sake. Because their only reason to do anything is financial, and my only reason to do anything is artistic.
[77:47]
Interviewer
But can I raise my hand now and tell you that I'm putting out my own records on colored vinyl?
[77:53]
Pat Benatar
But that's okay. You're doing it.
[77:54]
Interviewer
But I'm saying you can do that, too, if it wants.
[77:57]
Neil Giraldo
No question.
[77:58]
Pat Benatar
But their motivation. I hate the motivation.
[78:00]
Interviewer
But I'm saying you can cut that correction crowd out. Now, I know that if you want to.
[78:05]
Pat Benatar
That's true, but I. We. I mean, they only.
[78:07]
Interviewer
I don't think you guys need a check, so why don't you just do what you want to do?
[78:11]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[78:12]
Pat Benatar
That's it. That is what I want to do. I want to only do what we have. And then I'll decide if it ever should be heard by anyone.
[78:19]
Interviewer
Okay. That's all. I'm not trying to belabor it.
[78:21]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah. Well, just two different thoughts here. She thinks differently than I do.
[78:26]
Interviewer
So tell me how you think.
[78:26]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, well. Yeah, yeah. There's a difference here. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of who's going to hear it, who's not going to hear. I don't give a. About any of that. Really don't. Doesn't matter to me because all the. I know. Hold on a second, please. All the emotional success, not money and not anything, but the emotional success that I get from being brave and being innovative. Not for the reason of just being innovative, because I think it's funny. And like, oh, look at me. Not that. It's not that at all. It's like, how crazy can I really get? What can I really do? How could I live up to my heroes like Brian Wilson? How could I get in that club? I want to be there with that. So I have that fire. I have that thing.
[79:20]
Interviewer
That's what you need.
[79:21]
Neil Giraldo
With Patricia, it's a little different because I'm really left field. I'm really left field. And when we get in it, sometimes Patricia has an opinion these days, more often than not. Where she'll fight that. In the past, she would fight it just for a short, short, very short time. Now the time's more extended.
[79:43]
Pat Benatar
You can't just be like crazy.
[79:45]
Neil Giraldo
But see, I don't.
[79:45]
Pat Benatar
You have to prove it.
[79:47]
Neil Giraldo
I won't prove it.
[79:48]
Pat Benatar
But you did. You just proved it. You just showed me that.
[79:52]
Neil Giraldo
I did show you.
[79:53]
Pat Benatar
That's right. And what did I do? Tell me what happened.
[79:56]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, you gave me a lot of. About it. But you did do it for it
[79:59]
Pat Benatar
because you gotta prove it.
[80:00]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[80:01]
Interviewer
Please. I want you to finish.
[80:02]
Neil Giraldo
But I think you understand what I'm talking about. Cause we're kind of thinking the same way. Because I'm not afraid of that. I want to be brave. I really do. And I'm working on a Christmas record. And I've been working on it for about 100 years. Where it's diverse, different people putting people in uncomfortable situations. So if there's like a country singer. Let me take that country singer. Put them in a very awkward position. Maybe a New Orleans Cajun based song, right? All these awkward things to really kind of mix it up a little bit. And it's working really well. The songs I love, all original songs. They're all interesting. It's all About. It's not like Frosty the Snowman, not that there's anything wrong with. But it's about the time of year of what happens during the holidays. When it gets towards the end of the year, people's relationships either break up or get stronger.
[80:49]
Interviewer
It's an intense time.
[80:50]
Neil Giraldo
The first of the year. They're gonna take care of themselves. They're gonna take care of all the emotional things that they destroy. All these things, all that goes on. That's what those songs are about. So it's not a Christmas record per se.
[81:02]
Interviewer
Right.
[81:03]
Neil Giraldo
But that's a reason I mentioned that is that's different than working this way because I have the diversity to go in. I'll go in with you, Billy. I have an idea for a Christmas song. If you want to write together, let's write it together. But here, this is where I want it to live. That's exciting to me and I will always kind of do that. But this is a little more challenge.
[81:23]
Interviewer
Well, point, if you don't mind.
[81:23]
Neil Giraldo
Yes.
[81:25]
Interviewer
The other thing I've been surprised by, and I think you can only figure it out when you get there is. And I've seen this thing happen using my generation as an example. Gen X is half, almost, maybe 55, 60% of the population of the generation before and after. So Gen X, I think, might be the only generation that never has a president in the history of our country. I read that somewhere.
[81:50]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, really? That's interesting.
[81:51]
Interviewer
Gen X doesn't have a lot of power. Gen X's one flash of power was 90s grunge, 90 to 96. That was our kind of moment. And then we all blew up and died. I was on the blew up when I didn't die.
[82:04]
Neil Giraldo
But you did die well.
[82:05]
Interviewer
Thank you.
[82:05]
Neil Giraldo
That's good. Thank God.
[82:06]
Interviewer
Thank you, Jesus.
[82:07]
Neil Giraldo
I was wondering the first thing I was gonna say. I was happy that we're still stand. That was the first thing I was going to tell you.
[82:11]
Interviewer
Okay, thank you. God bless. But this is kind of the point I'm trying to make to you collectively. The thing that surprises me is as we're rewriting the rules of rock and roll, partially because whatever's happened in the last 10 years has elongated the interest in what we are good at. Even if it's just because of a song we did years ago.
[82:33]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[82:33]
Interviewer
There's something resonant that's happening that's very different than ever happened before.
[82:37]
Neil Giraldo
Understood.
[82:39]
Interviewer
We all remember Sha Na Na. You know, it was like looking back at the greasers and the doo wop and all that stuff. And we've all had that moment where it's like the 80s are in and now people are telling me the 90s are in, whatever. But what I'm surprised by, and this is a shift that's really only happened in the last two years. There's something about perseverance that is, for the first time in my life, become more powerful than the catalog.
[83:05]
Pat Benatar
That's. And which is my point.
[83:08]
Interviewer
Okay, so we're on the same wavelength.
[83:09]
Pat Benatar
We are. Here's what you just said for me, because I am a forward thinking person. Like, I don't. I am. Right. I like to stay here, right where I am. But the next thing that I really like to do is go forward. I have. There is nothing about going backwards that is appealing to me.
[83:27]
Interviewer
But that's what I'm saying.
[83:28]
Pat Benatar
Right?
[83:29]
Interviewer
So where I'm saying.
[83:29]
Pat Benatar
So my point is correct. I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest.
[83:41]
Interviewer
Okay, so last thing. Songs are always important. We know that. We live in nice houses because great
[83:49]
Neil Giraldo
songs gotta have songs.
[83:52]
Interviewer
But I'm telling you for the first time in my lifetime, and I've watched rock pretty good, good for 50 years. Somehow the people that have earned some sort of respect, organic respect maybe is the right word.
[84:10]
Neil Giraldo
Okay.
[84:11]
Interviewer
It's not about legend. It's not about pioneer. It's about something about. You know what? Now that I look back, I realize that your voice and your voice and your voice has an authenticity that has lasted my life. And something about that voice back in the mix is more important to them than whether or not they like the song. Does that make sense the way you're saying it?
[84:30]
Neil Giraldo
I understand.
[84:31]
Pat Benatar
I understand that.
[84:32]
Interviewer
So I would encourage you to at least think about it from the standpoint of you choosing to sing your song the way you want to sing it. And I don't care, whatever genre it is, that ultimately in this moment in time, in this culture is a powerful statement to people of endurance and hope. And my life isn't over just because I crossed some sort of meridian line.
[84:53]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[84:54]
Interviewer
Because we all grew up with hope. I die before I get old.
[84:57]
Neil Giraldo
No question. Yeah, that's.
[84:59]
Interviewer
Now over here, the money people are like, well, look at the Stones and look at Fleetwood Mac. That's where their brains go.
[85:05]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[85:06]
Interviewer
My brain goes to. If I'm going to open the door and let all that in or even poke my head out the door, if I don't have something new to say, why am I Bothering?
[85:14]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, you have to be. You have to have something new to say.
[85:16]
Pat Benatar
I mean, my problem is I have literally 150 songs written.
[85:23]
Neil Giraldo
We got a lot of songs.
[85:24]
Pat Benatar
I mean, I have a lot to say always. But you know, it's gotta be. It's gotta be forward thinking. And right now he's a maniac. So there's no doubt in my mind that he will not get that, you know, But I will give him these words. He will make it crazy. Like I want. I just don't know if I'm willing to. It's so much. But we tour every year. Every year. We're out every year, even for just. Even if it's seven weeks, whatever, we still go out. And I still adore performing. I still love them. And I see half of them are very interested in anything you want to give them. Like, just give me anything. You could sing the phone book, do anything. I don't care. And then there's the other group, smaller, that only want you to stay locked in time. I have no interest in. In this part. None.
[86:16]
Neil Giraldo
We never did. I mean, nobody. Nobody really does.
[86:19]
Pat Benatar
But I know that because I am a live performer. I watch them every day.
[86:23]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[86:24]
Pat Benatar
So I'm like, well, if I give you a whole record of stuff that sounds like something you never heard before, what are you gonna say about that? You know? And I mean. And I personally actually don't care what they say about it, but the truth is, why would I spend that much time doing as much as it takes to create something from scratch? You know, you're gonna take this is a lot out of your life.
[86:48]
Interviewer
Oh, no, that's what I'm saying. If the argument is, hey, I just. I don't care, I'm past that. But I'm saying if you still, like, your husband is just as passionate as he ever was. And that would be. My argument is.
[87:02]
Pat Benatar
But that's why I'm right.
[87:03]
Interviewer
I have a personal. But the fire, I guess it's. Maybe I'm making two esoteric appointments. But the fire is what's attractive, Correct.
[87:11]
Neil Giraldo
Well, I have a personal challenge too. A personal challenge. Because I've always challenged myself with everything I've ever done, anything at all. It's always challenging myself. I like to challenge myself and explain to people what. I hate to use the word rock, rock and roll music, but to actually show what it could be, not what we know it to be, if you know what I mean.
[87:35]
Interviewer
I do.
[87:35]
Neil Giraldo
I think, you know, the rap revolution, when that began, that's the real. That's the new rock music. That's where it is.
[87:43]
Interviewer
I made the same argument, and it's powerful. They did a better job there for 10 or 15 years representing Rock than the rock.
[87:49]
Neil Giraldo
No question. Their lyrics, the power behind them, the whole. The attitude, just everything about it. Rock and roll, people dropped that a long time ago. What were they thinking of? So there is. I would like to be that person that can help. Help kind of not create, but kind of move that forward. I love writing. I love writing songs. I know you probably have some ADD and you. I have some ADD because that's what happens. I love writing. I come up with words, but I don't like to write all the words. I'll come up with a title, a few lines, but melodies. I write melodies all day long. And I write all. She writes words. I write melodies. And that ADD thing charges, so. So I take the challenge. Yeah, I'm all for the challenge. Mix it up.
[88:36]
Pat Benatar
I mean, my problem with being the. What's the word? Provocateur that I like to be is that when you do it, you got a bunch of babies who don't want you to really do it. They want you to, like, pretend you're doing it. Like, you could be a pretend provocateur, but don't really do it. So, like, when I do it and I do something and they get all their feathers ruffled and everybody get on me, like, where the were you for the last 45 years? What did you actually do?
[89:09]
Neil Giraldo
But you're caring too much about those people. You don't need to care about that.
[89:11]
Pat Benatar
But it is my motivation for not doing.
[89:14]
Neil Giraldo
Oh, that wouldn't. You know what I mean? That wouldn't stop me.
[89:17]
Pat Benatar
I don't care. I don't. No. Okay. Not that I don't care. I do care. It's not relevant to me. Okay. Okay. So for me to give that much energy and everything else, I'm always like, really? I don't.
[89:32]
Interviewer
Best way I can explain it. And I think it's a good way to kind of put the bow around it is we could argue or conversate about every version of it, and we would never know which one of us was right or wrong.
[89:46]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, there's no right or wrong way
[89:47]
Interviewer
because outside of sort of general analytics, there's really no touchstone point anymore. And I think that what happens is it ends up being almost demotivated.
[89:56]
Neil Giraldo
Well, that's what she's. That's what she's feeling. That's what she's feeling. But, see, I have a Problem too. Because I'm thinking, here we are like this, and I'm not Brian Wilson. But where's Brian Wilson now? How could he. How come? How could. Why isn't he surfacing? Well, no, no, forget it. Let me stay where I'm at.
[90:12]
Interviewer
The next Brian Wilson or the original Brian Wilson.
[90:14]
Neil Giraldo
No. And the next one. Where's.
[90:16]
Interviewer
Where's. I think that has everything to do with the way the music business.
[90:19]
Neil Giraldo
Where's the evolution they've created?
[90:21]
Interviewer
Sorry, I didn't interrupt you. They've created a model.
[90:24]
Neil Giraldo
I know. It's so big.
[90:25]
Interviewer
Pop is the only master. They'll pay their light bills with people like us.
[90:32]
Neil Giraldo
Correct.
[90:32]
Interviewer
Pop is their master.
[90:34]
Neil Giraldo
Correct. Which is why I was using that as an example of his genius, of what that was like. They put California on the map. The Beach Boys. Without the Beach Boys, California wouldn't exist. Like that.
[90:44]
Interviewer
But if Pet Sounds, Brian Wilson existed today, he'd be a hipster artist, probably. You see what I'm saying?
[90:52]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah.
[90:53]
Interviewer
The two modes of the music business are crass commercialism. I don't care what I gotta do. Kill my mother.
[91:00]
Neil Giraldo
Caught her.
[91:01]
Interviewer
Tune me to infinity, whatever. And then the hipster class, which is snobby and inward facing. And if you don't have the right T shirt, you're out.
[91:09]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, yeah, understood.
[91:10]
Pat Benatar
Which is my point.
[91:11]
Interviewer
Anybody in between those. Doesn't have a country does exist.
[91:15]
Neil Giraldo
I think what I was getting at though, with Brian Wilson is like an evolution where it wouldn't be possible. It's just his brilliance, no matter what it was. Why can't you recreate something not pop, but something from that genius mind that he has? That's what I'm saying. Is there motivation from him that way? Probably.
[91:35]
Pat Benatar
Where does an aggressive, I don't know, person, female like me. Where do I go now? What do I do? I am a finger pointing. Yell at you the entire time we're doing a concert. And I speak my mind. I have no. There are no boundaries for me. And where am I at this day? Today? Where am I today? What do I do with that? What do I do with what just happened? What do I do with that?
[92:01]
Interviewer
I think if you show that same passion in music, you will find an audience that will value you.
[92:06]
Pat Benatar
Well, no, I understand that. And my whole thing is, you know, my thing is to come out swinging. My whole thing is like not to be quiet. That's my self.
[92:13]
Interviewer
But that's rock and roll.
[92:15]
Neil Giraldo
That's. Yeah, that's the meaning of it.
[92:16]
Interviewer
Yeah. So sitting with you, you know, and We've talked plenty about how we got here, you two. But what's interesting to me is just the level of vitality.
[92:27]
Neil Giraldo
Correct?
[92:27]
Pat Benatar
Oh, yeah.
[92:28]
Interviewer
And I'm like, oh, now I understood what I was hearing on those records. Like, it's here in front of me. That's the great luxury of interviewing great people like you is I get to feel the engine behind it all.
[92:38]
Neil Giraldo
Sure, of course.
[92:39]
Interviewer
So the snarl in you is still there.
[92:42]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah, yeah.
[92:43]
Interviewer
No, but what I'm saying is.
[92:44]
Pat Benatar
No, but. I mean, yes, it is. That's my problem. My problem is there's nothing that I'm gonna do right now. I am so snarly right now. I'm not cool. I am not cool. So I got all that right now. I am not cool. What am I gonna do with that? That is not gonna be pretty. And I don't even see an atmosphere or a universe right now where this makes any sense, except all I'm gonna do is turn everything crazy. And I'm like, well, enough. I'm like, I don't know if I really wanted to do that.
[93:17]
Interviewer
I get that. You know, I get that. That's what I'm saying. If you're gonna open your door, imagine
[93:21]
Pat Benatar
what our house is like. It's not fun there right now.
[93:25]
Neil Giraldo
My studio's fun.
[93:26]
Pat Benatar
It's not fun. We did a song the other day. It's fantastic. Cause, you know, we do other stuff. Like, our friend is doing a musical version of Scissorhands. And we just wrote a song for Scissorhands called Beautiful Weirdos. And it's. I almost beat the. Out of him in the studio because he was he. I said, did you, like. Did you go like this and pick every note to make me have to sing every crazy interval on Earth because you just wanted to kill me?
[93:53]
Neil Giraldo
That's how you gotta sing what's written.
[93:55]
Pat Benatar
Ridiculous. But I really hated him because I was like, this is what he always did.
[94:00]
Neil Giraldo
See, in the old days, he would
[94:01]
Pat Benatar
just say, okay, I know, but I'm not that person. I'm like. I'm like, are you? I just want to have a cup of coffee and drink a glass of wine. And now I have to do. I have to do pyrotechnics, calisthenics, and everything else that ends in an ICS for, like.
[94:15]
Interviewer
Don't you see the compliment? He believes you can do it, though.
[94:17]
Neil Giraldo
I know that's what I do. And you did it. I mean, you're doing it.
[94:20]
Pat Benatar
So this is what he did to me in the beginning.
[94:22]
Neil Giraldo
He tortured me I guess that didn't
[94:24]
Interviewer
work well he died apparently he didn't torture you enough cause you're smart not
[94:27]
Neil Giraldo
enough that's exactly right.
[94:28]
Pat Benatar
He did he tortured me he'd go no it's not high enough I think
[94:31]
Interviewer
we're end on the torture the torture's a good end. He did thank you so much for talking it was awesome.
[94:35]
Neil Giraldo
Yeah Billy, this was great. Thank you.
[94:38]
Interviewer
Thank you.
[94:38]
Neil Giraldo
I'll have to get you in the studio Come on come and hang we'll
[94:41]
Interviewer
throw something down version too I will
[94:43]
Neil Giraldo
get you that version we'll throw something
[94:45]
Pat Benatar
down and if you decide to do anything I'm going to credit you.
[94:50]
Neil Giraldo
Good well look at there. That's good.
[94:53]
Pat Benatar
Now you just made me insane I'm
[94:55]
Interviewer
one of those guys produced by written by, conceived by you know what mine
[95:00]
Neil Giraldo
is mojo by here's what I do I do that but then nobody knows
[95:03]
Interviewer
it's me well I just figured it out God damn it. It.