Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode Title: Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Date: August 13, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan
Guest: Steve Vai

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and musically rich episode, Billy Corgan dives deep with legendary guitarist and composer Steve Vai. The conversation traverses Vai’s formative years, his passion-driven practice routines, time with musical giants like Frank Zappa and David Lee Roth, the evolution of the guitar world, the importance of melody over technical skill, and even his obsession with beekeeping. Interspersed with candid anecdotes, memorable moments, and shared reflections on the artistic journey, the episode is both a masterclass in music philosophy and an illuminating look at what drives creative greatness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Influences and Passion for Guitar

• On the Genesis of Practice and Passion

  • Vai describes his early obsession with the guitar not as discipline but as an addiction driven by passion:

    "People say you must have been very disciplined...and I'm not a very disciplined person that way. Passion is a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline..."
    – Steve Vai, (04:07)

  • Started intensive practice around age 13, practicing up to nine hours a day (02:55).

• The Pull of Exploration

  • Passion pulled Vai into deeper levels of mastery, which, as Corgan notes, began at "a very early age" (03:18).
  • Emphasized that true dedication comes from a natural internal drive, not external enforcement (02:42-02:51).

Compositional Mindset

• Composer First, Guitarist Second

  • Before picking up the guitar, Vai was inspired by orchestral compositions, notably "West Side Story," sparking a lifelong interest in composing (21:36).
  • This mindset set him apart from traditional rock modal influences:

    "Seeing your guitar life through the prism of a composer first makes so much more sense..."
    – Billy Corgan, (22:02)

• Hybrid Identity

  • Vai confirms he always felt slightly outside traditional guitar "modalities," driven toward hybrid approaches (20:07, 22:51).

Legendary Encounters & Mentors

• The Frank Zappa Years

  • Detailed story of how Vai got Frank Zappa’s home number at age 16, persistently followed up, and earned an eventual spot through his insane dedication to transcription (26:13).
  • Transcribed incredibly complex Zappa works, including "The Black Page" and entire albums for copyrights (28:29).
  • Zappa’s mentorship summed up in a singular, practical piece of advice:

    "Keep your publishing." (33:39)

  • A rare moment of Zappa praise:

    "I think you’re a genius in ways that have yet to be discovered."
    – Frank Zappa to Steve Vai, (36:27)

  • Zappa’s ability to spot unique talent and draw it out— likened to bandleaders Ellington and Dorsey (34:55–39:16).

• On Influences and Admiration

  • Vai cited Alan Holdsworth as the most awe-inspiring guitarist he’s ever witnessed (12:57).

    "Alan Holdsworth, the reason why I'm so attracted to him is because his musical mind is unique..." (15:03)

  • Spoke admiringly about Jimmy Page’s mystique, composition, and Instagram storytelling (14:18–14:30).
  • Named jazz greats Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass as major inspirations, lauding their emotional genius and instinctive playing (17:31–18:30).

Guitar Culture, Virtuosity, and Modern Evolution

• On Competing and Jousting with Other Greats

  • Recounted onstage guitar battles with Yngwie Malmsteen as healthy, inspiring encounters that push each to discover their own voice (06:01–09:21).

    "With guys like Yngwie, you can't compete...They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you." (08:59)

  • Vai described the contemporary guitar scene as more supportive and less ego-driven compared to earlier decades (10:01–10:32).

• Virtuosity, Melody, and Shelf Life

  • Stressed the essential role of melody in giving musical longevity:

    "The ability to shred is fine and good, but without melody, there's no shelf life in a performer's career." (11:49)

  • Outlined what it takes to become a virtuoso:

    "Practice non stop and practice perfectly and you have to practice fast ... but without melody, it won't last." (11:57–12:41)

• Generational Shifts & Guitar's New Language

  • Spoke highly of next-gen players like Tosin Abasi bringing new languages and techniques to guitar (11:00–11:12).
  • Noted how contemporary players "own it" without always relying on formal theory, referencing George Lynch from Dokken (18:11–19:19).

Rock Stardom: Alcatrazz, Roth, Whitesnake

• Replacing Giants and Handling Pressure

  • On following Yngwie in Alcatrazz:

    "I was slammed...The first gig...everybody was chanting Yngwie...They did not know he wasn’t in the band." (53:29)

  • His attitude: go in, be different, do your own thing, realize it’s not forever (54:00–54:07).

• David Lee Roth Era

  • Described the Roth band as "rogue youth gang"—more about energy, fun, and camaraderie than trying to beat Van Halen (65:03–65:36).
  • Admitted Roth's band didn’t have the crossover songs that made Van Halen legendary, but it became respected for other reasons (63:45–64:07).
  • On Eddie Van Halen’s unique genius:

    "You can’t replace that...that sauce...Eddie’s melodic base." (63:48)

  • Insights into what makes a band’s chemistry special, e.g., Alex Van Halen’s overlooked contribution (77:11–77:51).

• Leaving Pop Stardom for Artistic Fulfillment

  • Despite money, success, and acclaim from Roth and Whitesnake, Vai knew he had to create on his own terms (69:10–70:02).
  • "Passion and Warfare" was his true passion project—initially feared it would end his career but brought the greatest satisfaction (76:15).

Impact and Legacy

• Vai's Indirect Influence

  • Corgan shares how Vai’s "Flex-Able" gave him permission to adopt a less rigid, more personal approach to guitar (45:38–45:51 & 46:47–47:33).
  • Vai acknowledges and is surprised by the influence, even on people like Dave Grohl (45:56–46:09).

• On Guitar’s Resurgence and Business

  • The unlikely rise of instrumental guitar music as a viable business model, contrary to expectation (74:00–75:19).
  • Vai’s introduction of the seven-string guitar and its takeover by nu-metal bands like Korn:

    "I knew they were gonna do it...In my mind's ear, I was hearing what was gonna be happening..." (82:10–83:05)

• Can You Be Too Good at Guitar?

  • Corgan: "Can you be too good at guitar?"
  • Vai: "In my opinion, no." (86:32–86:38)

Beekeeping and Zen (78:03–81:45)

• An unexpected, fascinating diversion: Vai is a long-time, dedicated beekeeper.
  • Shares both practical wisdom and affection for bees:

    "They have a fascinating social infrastructure. They're calming. You're with nature. They make honey. They really are extraordinary." (79:28)

  • Draws parallels between the unpredictability of music and nature’s rhythms.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Passion vs. Discipline:

  "Passion is a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline...Discipline implies you have to fight something. Passion says you’re going to do this because you want to do it."
  – Steve Vai, (04:07)

• On the Inner Voice for Artistic Direction:

  "You can be successful and still be miserable...Sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to ask yourself that question till you've exhausted those things that you thought were going to bring that to you."
  – Steve Vai, (69:12)

• On Zappa’s Legacy and Mentorship:

  "The great thing about Frank was he had this intuitive ability to recognize your potential even better than you did, and then he would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette."
  – Steve Vai, (34:55)

• On Competing with Other Guitarists:

  "With guys like Yngwie, you can't compete ... They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you."
  – Steve Vai, (08:59)

• On Leaving Arena Rock Behind:

  "It can't buy the satisfaction I feel when I listen to Passion and Warfare. It just can't."
  – Steve Vai, (76:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Gunslingers Analogy & Onstage Jousting – (01:22–09:21)
• Composing vs. Playing and Early Influences – (20:07–23:12)
• Story of Getting Hired by Frank Zappa – (24:56–27:52)
• Zappa’s Mentorship and Praise – (34:55–36:27)
• Virtuosity, Melody, and Advice for Players – (11:40–12:42)
• Replacing Yngwie in Alcatrazz – (53:29–54:07)
• Joining David Lee Roth and Not Replacing Eddie – (57:22–63:27)
• Beekeeping Philosophy – (78:08–81:45)
• The Seven-String Guitar's Influence on Nu Metal – (81:45–83:18)
• Can You Be Too Good at Guitar? – (86:21–86:39)

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Final Thoughts

Billy Corgan and Steve Vai's free-flowing, deeply respectful conversation charts the evolution of both musical culture and personal authenticity. For aspiring artists, guitar enthusiasts, and fans of great stories alike, this episode brims with insight, humor, and encouragement to follow one’s unique path—no matter how unconventional. The central theme: greatness is found in discovering, embracing, and fully expressing your singular voice, even if it means stepping away from commercial trends or expectations.

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Listen for:

• Candid stories of musical risk and reward
• Insightful takes on the artistic journey, mentorship, and the shifting landscape of instrumental music
• Memorable advice (“Keep your publishing!”) and honest reflections from two genre-defining artists

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Transcript

[Steve Vai]

We wore the most outlandish clothes. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as you.

[Interviewer]

I remember you guys just. There seemed to be a lot of

[Steve Vai]

running, running, running, running. It was fantastic.

[Interviewer]

You've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like, those guys.

[Interviewer]

You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar.

[Steve Vai]

For some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could.

[Interviewer]

Thank you very much for being here.

[Steve Vai]

Thank you for the invite.

[Interviewer]

So tell me if you don't like the analogy, but. And it comes from seeing you. Was the tour the Generation Acts. I saw that in Dallas. I didn't know if he knew I was there that night. No, I. I went backstage and I talked to. I think I saw Nuno, but I didn't really see anybody. I didn't want to bother anybody, but it comes from watching this thing that you guys would do on stage, and I'll get to that in a second. But I. I love the analogy. And. And it's. It's off. Used. It's the idea of, like, guitarist. As gunslingers, you know, this idea of like, you know, the Sergio Leone.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So. And I'm not saying you're someone who prides himself as being, like, the fastest gun in the West. I've never gotten that feeling from you. In fact, I've read where you've sort of dissuaded people from focusing too much on that. Is that fair?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I would say so. I like having facility. It's a challenge to keep up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so let me start there. How do you keep it up at your age? Because I'm 57 and I've been playing 40 years, and at some point the joints start to go like, take it easy, buddy.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, we're kind of like. I don't know why, but when I was younger, I chose the route of being fascinated by chops.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, so it was an interesting discovery, and it was just something as simple as, look, if you sit down and just practice, you get better. And when I started getting better, it. And it gives you a feeling of enthusiasm, self respect, which I needed at the time.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So that it becomes sort of like an addiction. So for me now practicing Endlessly is not for everybody. It's only for those that are pull. That have a pull to do it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, like, you can't. You can try to force it, but if it doesn't feel natural to you to want to.

[Interviewer]

So in a normal day, what would have been a practice amount of time?

[Steve Vai]

Well, my schedule back then. I was happy if I got nine hours a day.

[Interviewer]

I thought I was doing well at four.

[Steve Vai]

That is good. Four hours a day is great.

[Interviewer]

Nine is like, wow.

[Steve Vai]

I was very neurotic. Very.

[Interviewer]

That's a good word.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Myopic, you know? Cause once I discovered this and, you

[Interviewer]

know, this is what, age. Just so we can.

[Steve Vai]

12. 13, 14.

[Interviewer]

12. That's a very early age to go that deep in onset.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I started going deeper in like, 13.

[Interviewer]

Okay. But still, most kids at 13 are thinking about a lot of other stuff, you know?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I just. It just had such a pull, such an attract, such an interest, such a joy, such a.

[Interviewer]

Was it the exploration or was it the discipline?

[Steve Vai]

Well, the funny thing was it didn't feel like discipline.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, discipline. I'm not. People say you must have been very disciplined. You know, and sometimes I would try to. I would go to sleep early on a Friday so I could wake up and practice all the way till Monday when I had to go to school. So I get like 20, 30 hours. And people say we must have been very disciplined. And I'm not a very disciplined person that way.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, passion. It was a passion. And you. You understand this. And because passion is a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline, you know, discipline implies you have to fight something. You have to push yourself to do something that you don't really want to do, you know, but you gotta do it. But passion says you're gonna do this because you want to do it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It'll be challenges along the way, but there's never the thought of giving up or failing.

[Interviewer]

It's in your heart.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's in your heart. It's like a little secret that you create with yourself.

[Interviewer]

So playing along with my gunslinger image, who would be a gunslinger that you would not want to face out on the dusky?

[Steve Vai]

Oh, geez. It happens all the time.

[Interviewer]

Well, I've seen it. I'm getting there. But I'm saying throw out a name that somebody that you like would think, like, oh, that guy. Is that. That guy on the draw is hard to beat.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, well, there's. There's guys.

[Interviewer]

All in good fun, obviously.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, sure. Well, you know, when you're in the situation, and if you have the confidence and you, you decide that, well, I can only do the best I can do, then you're, you're free. You're clear. But there's, there's guys that, if I was standing next to, I'd be like, you know, if Alan Holdsworth was, you know, I'd be like, okay, wait a minute, folks. Yeah, I don't, I could.

[Interviewer]

You know, the reason I, I, I thought of this analogy in speaking with you was when I saw you guys in Dallas, and I don't remember the song you guys were playing, but you were out there with yngvy and you guys were kind of doing a trading back and forth thing. Do you remember the song you guys would do it on?

[Steve Vai]

Black Star, I think.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, right. That makes sense. Right? It's kind of a halftime, like. Yeah, right.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you and YNGV were having a lot of fun going back and forth.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And he played this one run, and he did some. I, I can't even describe it other than he started here and he ended up here.

[Steve Vai]

And it's kind of hard to describe those things. Right.

[Interviewer]

I mean, it was so, it was so. It was probably the greatest 10 seconds of guitar playing I've ever seen in my life.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, right.

[Interviewer]

And, and, and then, you know, he does this thing, and like a gunslinger, he puts his thing, and you're supposed to go, yeah. And you literally went like, I'm taking this.

[Steve Vai]

And I did that a few times

[Interviewer]

with him, and I didn't know if it was a shtick or whatever, but. So I actually went back and found the clip, it's on YouTube somehow, of that show in that moment. And I was like, okay, is this moment as good as I thought it was? And it was, it was some sort of crazy moment where it's like somehow in that, all those years and all that discipline and then obviously standing across from you, you guys having a little bit of fun jousting.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that sort of beautiful moment of like, wow. Yeah, well, gunslingers. And he got you good, because you literally just go, okay, I'm done.

[Steve Vai]

Sure. Yeah. Because, you know, Yngwie is a special, special case.

[Interviewer]

He very much is.

[Steve Vai]

I, I loved the idea of being able to shred, as they say, and I, I honed that skill. But Yngwie, when he hit the scene, it was, it was a different kind of a shred.

[Interviewer]

He all drove us back to our, to our practice.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

He, he, he let us Know what?

[Interviewer]

I was like, what is Phrygian? You know, it was like, sud. Suddenly I care about the Phrygian scale because of Yngwie.

[Steve Vai]

That's Yngwie, the Phrygian scale. But he. He had a different kind of approach from. From the germination of his interest. And that was violin playing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Paganini.

[Steve Vai]

So Paganini and stuff. So his inner ear was hearing that kind of thing, which is not very. In a sense, it's not as guitaristic as somebody listening to Jimmy Page or that kind of thing. And when we get up on the stage together and we're trading like that, it's really. It's a great moment, you know, because Yngwie, you know, standing with another musician and actually trading licks like we do and I do with all the G3 Generation act, all this kind of thing, you know, it requires listening very intently and then responding in a way that, you know, is appropriate. And with guys like Yngwie, you can't compete. You know, like, if I'm with Joe Satriani or any of these guys, you can't compete with the best of them. They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you, you know, Like, I have. Yeah. I have to be more Steve Vai, that weird, quirky guy, than I have been before. When, you know, somebody does something that's the top of their game. So it's a wonderful opportunity. So when Ingb does his, you know, that monstrous kind of rift, what is that? It's his. It's. It's his thing, you know, I think, you know, it's part of the show, you know, because it's fun. Because I can't. I don't do that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But standing next to YNGWY will compel me or Joe or anybody. It compels you to reach into your taste.

[Interviewer]

Is. Is the. Is. I know there's various versions of a G3 and the. I can never think of the generation AX. Is that. Was that your brainchild? Or. Whose brainchild was that?

[Steve Vai]

G3 was Joe.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Satriani and Generation X was something that I pulled together.

[Interviewer]

What I like about it is a fan of guitar playing and guitar players is that it's. It shows that there's an esteem club that you can reach. And yet there's a special camaraderie that goes on with players of that level. I don't consider myself in that league. I can play, but I. That's a different level. And it's so cool to See this sort of like lack of a mutual admiration society.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because guitar playing at that level is kind of a lonely thing. And in the world that you and I grew up in, it was more of a.

[Steve Vai]

There's a niche.

[Interviewer]

Well, it was also. I'm better than you.

[Steve Vai]

There's a lot of that.

[Interviewer]

There was a lot of like I had to beat again, the gunslinger thing. I have to beat you because if I can't beat you, I don't win whatever game I'm after over here. Yeah. I think the game's changed in the last 10, 15 years where there's sort of more suppleness in the market for like, hey, there's a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy and it doesn't have to be defined by ego or who's the best.

[Steve Vai]

Well, it's a crazy kind of a perspective because as you know, it's all subjective and the, the best may exist in things like sports. Yeah. You know, but for instance, in the, in the shredder world back then, even more so now in the underground, there's evolution, you know, of the way these people are playing.

[Interviewer]

When I saw you guys play, it was. I can never say his name. Right. Abasi.

[Steve Vai]

Tosin. Tosin. Abasi.

[Interviewer]

I mean all those.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Totally. From a different world than we grew up in.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And bringing in a whole new language, a whole new. Even the guitar, the instrument itself, everything.

[Steve Vai]

Tosin's contribution to, to the formula was fantastic.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But the, the enduring feature of anybody that plays an instrument is going to be tied at the hip with the effective effectiveness of their melody.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

There has to be, you know, there has to be melody.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Shredding is fun. It's fine.

[Interviewer]

Well, eight year old kids are playing Eruption now, so.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you, you're. That is the distinguishing fact.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Props really are not, they're not less meaningful, but they're not meaningful in the way that they were at one point because it was a, it was an elite club who could play at that level.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Now so many people can play at

[Steve Vai]

that level and, and beyond and, and I can tell you how to become a virtuoso very easily.

[Interviewer]

Okay, tell me. Yeah, I'm still after it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You have to practice non stop and practice perfectly and you have to practice fast and you have to get, have bulletproof intonation. And this is a intellectual exercise. And when I was younger, that's what I did. I set the clock and I set the metronome. There wasn't a lot of melody involved, you know, but luckily for me, I was a huge fan. Like,'70s top 40. I love melody. Melody, yeah. So the. The ability to shred is fine and good, but without melody, it. There's no shelf life in a. In a performer's career. I'll even say that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I just. I wanted to ask you. I. I didn't think to ask it, but it made sense to me in the context. Who's the greatest guitar player that you've stood there and watched and thought, my God, that's just like. That's the mountain for me personally.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Alan Holdsworth.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Can you break that down a bit? Because. Sorry. Growing up in the generation that I did. Okay. I'm in the guitar magazines. I'm reading about you. You know what I mean? I'm hearing all these things and everybody would talk about Holdsworth like he was this kind of spinning deity, but as a kid, you go grab that record and you put it on and I think. I don't really.

[Steve Vai]

No, as a kid, it was Jimmy. Oops, sorry.

[Interviewer]

But I'm saying, for me, Holdsworth still remains a bit of a cipher. Like, I certainly understand the influence and the technical mastery involved and, like, even the fluidity in his playing, if that's a fair thing to say. But I'm saying I never found that emotional connection to his work.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. There's a. It's more of a intellectualized sophistication, sophisticated listening.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And it. For me, it tickles a particular part of my brain because it encompasses all of these elements, like Alan, the thing that I love most about him. And when I was a kid, it was Jimmy Page. Sure, Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page. By the way, if anybody wants to know, Jimmy Page, is it.

[Interviewer]

Was it the mystique in the whole thing or like the.

[Steve Vai]

The way he.

[Interviewer]

The.

[Steve Vai]

The choices of riffs, the way he played them. The mystique. Yeah. The fact that he produced that stuff,

[Interviewer]

his no choices were supreme.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, my God, it was.

[Interviewer]

He played so much cool stuff.

[Steve Vai]

Such cool stuff and with such an attitude and such a mystique and such a class act. I don't know if you follow his Instagram.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I do. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It's fantastic. Yeah. It's like. There's his book, you know, he's telling us everything.

[Interviewer]

Well, you really see that literacy is not the right word. You see, there's an intellectual drive in Jimmy that goes beyond.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, let's call it the rock mystique of Jimmy. Yeah. The real Jimmy coming out of studio system, being a studio player, learning what he learned and figuring out what? He figured out in many ways before other people did.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Including the people he kind of copiously copped from.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But he put it in this stew that was very singular.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He.

[Steve Vai]

He has had it.

[Interviewer]

Oh, his mind is incredible.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. But someone like Alan Holdsworth is more like. Or Jeff Beck, even. Totally different worlds, but they're craftsmen. Alan Holdsworth, the reason why I'm so attracted to him because his musical mind is unique in that. So, for instance, when I moved out to California in 1980, I was doing transcriptions to make a couple of bucks, and he called me, and he was writing a book on his wild chords.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Because he played those crazy, crazy things. But Alan didn't really know traditional music.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

He had his own vocabulary. He had his own way of constructing mu. You know, chords. His own understanding of how they go on the net.

[Interviewer]

Okay. That helps me understand him a little bit, because I could never understand why someone of your caliber would sort of point at him. And even Eddie Van Halen would talk about Holzweer.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So this is just his musical mind.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

So he didn't even understand how to translate that into conventional notation to write this book. So that's what I was helping him with. But in the process, I got to recognize a person who was almost like if you left people on a desert island, you know what I mean? And just gave him a couple of tools and the real brilliant ones. Build things.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

That's what Alan did. And. But it. So his way of approaching notes. Now, to a lot of people, it sounds like crazy notes going around the place, but if you're into connecting the musical dots of music theory and melody.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I'll use the word jazz. It's not quite relatable, but jazz is, like, formulaic in that this is the chord, and these are the notes you can use.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And by the way, the next chord comes in the next bar, and it's totally different. And now you can use this.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

So in insipid jazz playing is people who know the chords and the arpeggios and they just. And then what you hear is ripping arpeggios, but there's no soul in it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

There's no. The. The mind. It's. It's more mental than actually coming from a soulful place.

[Interviewer]

Math.

[Steve Vai]

And that's fine. You know, that's a process.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But someone like Alan or a great jazz player who doesn't even know any

[Interviewer]

jazz player you love.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, Wes. Wes Montgomery.

[Interviewer]

You know, my dad saw him once.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

60s. That was a guitar player. And.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I know.

[Interviewer]

He said, he said thank you. See, he said what blew his mind. He said it was just a club gig. And he said it was just him on a stool. And he said he just couldn't believe what was coming out of this one, man.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that happened.

[Interviewer]

Even 30 years later. He would talk about seeing Wes Montgomery, like, with a certain awe.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, I know how to play guitar, but I couldn't do that.

[Steve Vai]

No. Yeah, that, that, that happened to me when I watched Joe Pass play.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Or Alan.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Have you ever heard that? Beautiful. It's Joe Pass and the pianist Oscar Peterson.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

They do Porgy and Bess.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And Oscar's playing harpsichord for some reason.

[Steve Vai]

Y.

[Interviewer]

Very unique.

[Steve Vai]

And interestingly enough, Joe Pass didn't know much about music at all.

[Interviewer]

That's so funny.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's all here. That's why he's so inspired.

[Interviewer]

We played once with George lynch from Dawkin and we were sound checking at what used to be Universal. And I said something, and I know basic music theory, but I said something and he said, I don't know the notes. And I thought, how can you play like that? He said, I literally just figured out where I wanted to go and that's the way I play.

[Steve Vai]

Ah.

[Interviewer]

You know, like he, he never, like, he just learned, like, if I play here, that feels right. And.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So all his playing was completely instinctive.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And obviously had the gift to express it. So when you do meet people like that, and I've met a few, it's. It's sort of. It's humbling. It's like there's sort of music untamed in a way.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I've met many people like that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

They're not. They don't really retain theory information, but they just own it.

[Interviewer]

Maybe it's a different brain. Right.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So you talked about playing as a kid and I'm sure it's been off. Explored because you've been interviewed so many times, but when you. When you're. I guess what I'm after is. And I'll give the idea in reverse, it's not fair. But you've always struck me as somebody who. It maybe took time because I realize it's not one moment, but you kind of had to figure out your own way that the. That the ways presented to you weren't like. It's not that they weren't satisfying. They weren't you. And then over time you created almost like hybridity.

[Steve Vai]

I think you nailed it.

[Interviewer]

Okay, great. So. So at 13, 14, obviously you're like, I love Led Zeppelin or something. But where. It's. Where in there did you start to see, like, I like that. But I've got this other thing because, you know, in 18, you're, you know, you're talking to Frank Zappa. Like, take me at least a little bit. How you sort of recognize that there's this other voice in me that I have to figure out. Because standard rock and roll presentation of the guitar circuit 1973 was. Well, you can be like Jimi Hendrix, or he could be like Jimmy Page, or he could be like Jeff Beck. But you've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like, those guys.

[Interviewer]

But obviously it wasn't a chops issue. So.

[Steve Vai]

No, I think for me, I was more interested in composing before I started playing the guitar. I was probably about 5, 6 years old when I hit a piano for the first time, and I realized the notes go higher and lower and had, like, a little epiphany. And it was, if you understand how to write or navigate this language, you will have control over vast ideas. And that lit me up. And the biggest inspiration came when my parents brought home west side Story.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

That was historical orchestration with Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim. Great melody, great story. Gangs in it and tension and love interests and resolve and, you know, all this great stuff. So. And I was 4, you know, so that was what I really knew I wanted to do was compose. So I had this high information and I started studying.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Very early.

[Interviewer]

Seeing your guitar life through the prism of a composer first makes so much more sense in that it may almost. For me, it gives a missing piece to your story that I never quite understood.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Whenever I would look at you as a public figure, and I've been a fan, and we'll get to that in a second, but there'd always be this piece missing. But I didn't see it as a character defect or something I just didn't understand.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because you're of all the famed guitar players in the world that. That could go and literally sell out a show with you just playing the guitar. Nobody's singing. You know, you're in an elite class of people. To have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar. You, as composer sort of helps me understand that because you didn't fall in these conventional lanes as presented circa 1984. Like, he's this or he's that or he's this or that.

[Steve Vai]

I had enough of an interest. Well, I had a huge once. Once I heard Led Zeppelin when I was 12. And then that Queen, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the whole. And then Fusion, Aldeola, so. And then once I heard Frank. Yeah. He was doing what I loved the most because he was mixing all these things.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

He was taking the compositional interest and mixing it with all. All sorts of.

[Interviewer]

Were you. Were you. This is just a sort of weird fetish question, but were you also attracted to his kind of anti guitar guitar stance? You know what I mean by that? Does that translate or you want me to.

[Steve Vai]

Well, give Tony.

[Interviewer]

Well, he. My father loved Zappa.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer]

He was one of those people would go try to see Frank every time he was in town. And for all I know he saw you play with Frank. But. And I never really understood because Zappa seemed outside his normal orbit. My father loved R and B. My father loved Jimi Hendrix and kind of what you'd expect, you know, didn't really like hard rock, per se. And then Zappa sort of sits on the side of this whole thing, you know, as a sort of a. Like, he's a star, but he doesn't act like a star in the conventional way. He was dismissive of star systems.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. So I'm saying. I get what you mean.

[Interviewer]

And even. Even calling an album shut up and play your guitar. It's. It's very Frank Zappa. Like. Like, yeah, I'm going to play endless copious amounts of guitar, but I'm also going to sort of make fun of the whole thing at the same time.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm saying, was that also attractive to you in a particular way?

[Steve Vai]

Well, at that age, you know, when I discovered Frank, he had such a powerful personality. He was so fiercely confident. And also an explosion of freedom. I mean, Frank, it was remarkable. So I was. I was. I started working for him when I was 18.

[Interviewer]

18.

[Steve Vai]

And then joined the band when I was 20.

[Interviewer]

Let me stop you there. One quick, because this was one of my questions. How do you write Frank Zapp at 18? Is it like an address you can send something to?

[Steve Vai]

It's a. I was 16. And I'm in my little teenage bedroom practicing, practicing. All those friends come over, they're trying to pull me out.

[Interviewer]

Let's go. Let's go to the sock hop. And.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, and one of my friends came in and he had. Stole a Rolodex because that's how you used to get phone number. The old from a studio in New York City.

[Interviewer]

And it had Frank.

[Steve Vai]

It had not just Frank. I mean, I'm sitting there practicing, going, Mick Jagger. I'm like, oh, cool. You know, I got this pep in a tar. I'm like, great. And then he gets to the Z's, and he says, oh, And I have Frank Zappa's home phone number. And I went, you have what? You know. And I tried calling at 16. At 16.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Did anyone answer?

[Steve Vai]

Yes, his wife answered.

[Interviewer]

Gail.

[Steve Vai]

Gail. And oddly enough, when I knowing Gail, the way I know her now, the fact that she took the phone call and actually said. Because I'm like, you know, I'm just a fan. I got your phone number with the 60. Can I talk to Frank? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I talked to Frank.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And she said, well, Frank's on tour. Call back in six months. So I did. Well, Frank's on tour again. Call back in another six months. And I did that three times until I was 18. And I was at my friend's apartment at Berkeley. I was going to Berkeley. And Frank answered the phone.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Steve Vai]

And he was so nice. I caught him at a good time, and he gave me his address. Because I told him I knew the secret. I knew he was looking for Edgar Verace scores that was this big. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And the Big on Vraise.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, big on Vraise. And the Boston Public Library had those scores. So I Xeroxed him. I say, hey, Frank, I'd love to send you these scores. And I said, I have a transcription of the Black Page. And I said, and I have a tape in my band. And oddly enough, he said, well, just send it directly to the house. And he gave me his home address, and I mailed it. And that's how it started.

[Interviewer]

Wow. So you walk through Frank Zappa's door, 18 years old, and so the job is you're going to transcribe his world or.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. He wanted me to audition for the band. And then when I told him I was 18, he said, forget it. But I had sent them this transcript.

[Interviewer]

Was he worried about a maturity issue?

[Steve Vai]

I think so. 18. Can you imagine? Like, in that band?

[Interviewer]

I can. Yeah, I can.

[Steve Vai]

You can, yeah. But Frank's touring regime, I'll tell it to you one of these days. It's. It's. It was rough, you know.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I had transcribed this very complex piece of music.

[Interviewer]

It's like the most infamous.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Zappa composition of all time, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yes. The Black.

[Interviewer]

And that's kind of how Bozio got the gig, too. Or Something, Right.

[Steve Vai]

He learned how to play it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So. So Frank asked me to transcribe some of his guitar solos. So I said, sure, and I did it. And he was so impressed that he hired me to transcribe guitar solos.

[Interviewer]

What would be the point of a solo being transcribed? Would he want people to learn it or.

[Steve Vai]

Well, a couple.

[Interviewer]

He saw it as a compositional.

[Steve Vai]

Well, he thought it was fascinating. And he thought it would be great to release a book with all. With these transcriptions, which he did.

[Interviewer]

Which is kind of ahead of its time, if you really think about it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, because the transcriptions are unreadable. I mean, they're so intensely complex, you know. And so he also. Back in those days, in order to copyright a song, you had to send the lead sheet to Washington.

[Interviewer]

I remember.

[Steve Vai]

So they have it or a cassette.

[Interviewer]

Library of Congress, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yes, Library of Congress.

[Interviewer]

We did that, like 88.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. So back then, Frank had to do it, too. So one of my jobs was to go through his entire catalog and make sure there was at least lead sheets for everything. So I was doing that. And then was things that he wanted me to transcribe, like the entire Roxy record, head to toe, every instrument. So I. I did that. And that's good for him to have to then say, okay to a band, you know, here, learn this. You know. And then he had me do. Probably one of the most challenging was to create a full score of Gregory Peccary. That's a very obtuse piece of music that's like 45 minutes long that has the. The kitchen sink in it. And so that was the kind of transcription work I did.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so when he. When he first saw you kind of play guitar, what. What. What did he say?

[Steve Vai]

Okay, so let me say the first time he lit, he heard I. In the cassette I sent.

[Interviewer]

But I'm saying. Okay, but you. Is there a point where you jam in front of him or you guys play or you audition?

[Steve Vai]

I mean, Frank wasn't.

[Interviewer]

He.

[Steve Vai]

He wasn't very generous with compliments.

[Interviewer]

I'd heard that, you know.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So. But the first. One of. The first things I recorded for him was one of the guitar solos I transcribed.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

It was like a six minute. And I. I doubled his guitar. Every note, every scratch, every. Everything in one pass.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Because I didn't realize at the time what punching in was. I thought I had to do it all.

[Interviewer]

That's pretty impressive.

[Steve Vai]

One pass. And I got to the house, and Frank wasn't in a very good mood because he just got back from the dentist.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And I'm this kid. I'm 20, you know, 20 years old, and I'm doing this impossible thing. And to me, it's like, you're gonna get this, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You're gonna do this. So I'm playing through it, and out of my peripheral, I see Frank was throwing his head back, which I come to find out later. That's when Frank's really interested. And he's laughing when something's so wild to him, he just goes, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So I thought he was laughing because I was blowing it or something.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see.

[Steve Vai]

And when it was done, I thought, okay, well, I'm out of here, you know? And Frank picks up the phone and says. He calls Gail. And he goes, gail, come down here. You have to see this. So that was.

[Interviewer]

Have you repeat it?

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah, I did it a couple of times. I doubled it, actually, on the record, it's. I think it's doubled.

[Interviewer]

That's great.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And so that. But there was one other time. It was very interesting, you know, Frank expected you to play the right notes.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And he gave me some parts that were pretty challenging on guitar. And there was this one song called Montana, and he had never really had anybody play these obtuse melodies, you know, all this crazy. It's not written.

[Interviewer]

He actually could play them himself or he would write them.

[Steve Vai]

Frank was more of a visceral soloist. He would give all these.

[Interviewer]

So this is strictly. He's composed this thing, and now it's like, here, play it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. That was the majority of the stuff, the crazy stuff.

[Interviewer]

I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense to me.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And Billy, he would write it on piano. It doesn't make any sense on guitar, you know? So I was doing Montana, and it was the first. It was the first show. And Frank didn't know how I was going to be able to deliver all this very complex music on stage and get it right. But, you know, in the back of my mind, I was so bulletproof, confident, cocky, you know, it's like scared to death around Frank. But what do you want me to do? Bring it on. I got it. And we're doing this show, and if. If you made mistakes, he called you out on stage, he'd stop. He'd stop the show and call you out.

[Interviewer]

Okay, what would he say? Or you say something on the microphone.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, it's too fast for you, huh? Or he'd say, you know, something. You know, not. Not all the time. I get it, you know, but if it was A train wreck or something embarrassing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, and so I'm all ready, you know, and not. We do this. I'm like, the part's coming up, and I'm like. And I nailed it. And Frank stops the band, and I'm like, oh, oh. And he looks at me and takes the mic and he said, not bad, sport. And then we continued. So that you asked if the compliment. Yeah, that's probably the closest I get.

[Interviewer]

When he saw that your. When he saw your acumen and saw that you. Maybe. I'm guessing something, but did he see your future? I mean, did he. Does it make sense? He's like, yeah, okay. He sees this potentiate in you. Did he point you in a particular direction and say, this is where I see you going, or. No.

[Steve Vai]

And I asked him once, I said, is there any advice you would like to give me? And Frank was very practical, and he said, keep your publishing. And that was the best advice he ever did.

[Interviewer]

It is good. It is great advice. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It came from Frank. So to this day, I own every song, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But as far as that, no. Because Frank was a free thinker, and he would never make suggestions like that. There was only one time he ever commented on. On my future. And I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could. We would. We were just in the studio, just him and I just playing, playing, playing. You know, we're playing Sleep Dirt.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

It's just two guitars and sarpeggio, and I was just brand new, you know? And Frank would look for special things in a musician, you know, something that they could do that's kind of quirky, kind of interesting.

[Interviewer]

Seems like that's kind of how he put his bands together.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. He would find something. The great thing about Frank was he had this intuitive ability to recognize your potential even better than you did. And then he would get. He would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

That's why all of his records sound so different and everything. And for me, for some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. So that I was a good color in the palette. But the transcribing stuff, it really is on Mars, what I was doing. And I think he recognized that. And we were jamming, and I remember just stopping because I was stunned, because he started playing rhythm and I was starting to solo. Okay. And just some months before that, I was in my bedroom in Long Island. Look, you know, Listening to his records and everything. So I had a moment of, like, just, what's going on? It was like almost existential crisis or something. I'm like, that's Frank playing rhythm. What? So I kind of like, tripped. And he looks up, he goes, you okay? And I said, frank, I don't know what I'm doing here. How did I get here? You know? And. And he said, well, how many Tommy Mars are there? And I said, she's been. There's only one Tommy Mars. And he said, how many Vinny Kaliudas do you think there are? And I'm like, well, there's only one Vinny Kaliuda, you know? And he goes, well, how many Steve is Do you think there are? And I didn't understand that because I didn't see myself as anything special whatsoever, you know, And I thought about it, and then he said, I think you're a genius in ways that have yet to be discovered.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And I just thought he was being nice, you know. I just thought it was a nice thing to say. And I. I didn't understand what he said. I thought, well, maybe I'll do something great someday. I'm still trying to find it, you know, I think he saw my potential to do something obscure, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, but everybody is a genius when they find what they love and they throw themselves into it without any excuses.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But it's still an interesting. I don't know if that's. He has an interesting legacy with, like, a form of mentorship.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, I mean, in the same way, if you read books about, like, Tommy Dorsey or.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, I mean, like, people came out of the Dorsey Band, including Sinatra. You know, there's this weird. Maybe because we don't live in an ensemble society anymore, and maybe. Frank, does it make sense? It's like.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's kind of like our whole way of communicating and sharing music and listening to it and creating is just in flux.

[Interviewer]

Are you a Duke Ellington fan?

[Steve Vai]

I've listened to him a lot in college.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of debate about Ellington's prowess as a composer. And one of the debates that works against Ellington as a composer is that people say what he did, and it's not unlike what a lot of famous band leaders do, including contemporary bands, is they find people with specialized skill sets.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And then in adapting those specialized skill sets almost compositionally, people confuse the ability of the player to voice something simple in a distinctive way with and let's call it success as a Compositional.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I get you. I totally get.

[Interviewer]

So Cootie Williams is maybe. I'm pretty sure that's one of Ellington's guys who I think invented the wah wah, you know. The wah wah.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's kind of what he was known for. And some fan, I'm sure will tell me I'm wrong, but. No, but I'm saying just for the mental image of it is that, you know, he became like a star, that people would go to the gig to see Cootie do the thing. So Ellington being a composer and a bandleader and this is, you know, 1927 or 1943, whatever he figures out. Well, there's business here. I got to write Cootie. I got to set Cootie up.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because when he plays that solo, the place starts hopping.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it's an interesting thing because in many ways it's a. It's part of that tradition where these band leaders were. Were dependent, you know, charismatic and like Dorsey's case, like, you know, kind of savant level players. But they needed other people. Yeah. It couldn't be a one man band. So there's this tensile point between like, let's call it the King of the Castle.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And the ones he's got to bring in to kind of make it all kind of work.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And then of course, by the way, I have to rely on you. Yes. I wrote all this crazy stuff, but I still got to rely on you to play it. Yeah. And oh, by the way, you got to play it in a way that I like. Yeah. Because I'm the guy who wrote it. It's a very interesting thing that's kind of lost in our culture.

[Steve Vai]

Well, it takes an individual that has a strong enough vision in knowing what they want to even be able to direct those things.

[Interviewer]

How do you, how do you as a composer yourself, how do you look at Frank's composing legacy in hindsight?

[Steve Vai]

Well, Frank wasn't a conventional type of composer. He composed for conventional orchestras and whatnot. But he has his orchestral expression, he has his blues and R and B expression, his high information rock band stuff. And he. And an undiscovered world that is ahead of its time is his Sinclair work. I mean, it is.

[Interviewer]

Is that.

[Steve Vai]

Anybody heard any.

[Interviewer]

Is it released? Yeah, I have no idea.

[Steve Vai]

If you get a chance to listen to Civilization Phase three, Jazz from Hell. Jazz from Hell won a Grammy. Feeding the Monkeys at Momma's on Frank Zappa versus the Mothers of Prevention. It was. It's unique music. Like unique.

[Interviewer]

So this Is like another chapter that's

[Steve Vai]

sort of another whole brain muscle. That's why he was so extraordinary. But his pro. One of his frustrations was that he would write music that people couldn't play the way he wanted.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So when he discovered the synclavier. Ah, it's like you put a button. Yeah. And it's there.

[Interviewer]

This is a bit of a diversion, but I. People have asked me if I have, and I. Is a synesthesia. Is that the right way to pronounce it?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You have synesthesia?

[Steve Vai]

Not that I know of.

[Interviewer]

It's. It's. It's somewhere in the Internet. It says you have synesthesia, the ability

[Steve Vai]

to hear colors and see flavors or like that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

No, that's funny. Not that I. I love that the

[Interviewer]

Internet just sort of makes up stuff about people.

[Steve Vai]

I will say that I've never mentioned anything like that. The closest I've come is in meditations. I've. At times, I've gone deep enough to enter colors. I know this sounds abstract, but then I would assume that some of the principles of synesthesia, kind of the reason

[Interviewer]

I ask, because obviously it was wrong information. But people who have synesthesia will pull me aside and say, you must have synesthesia. And I think. I don't think. I do. And they're like, but I know you do. Because when I listen to your music, the color palette in your music tonally works for somebody with this condition, which is great. Kind of weird compliment to get, but I can't see it the way they do.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I don't either.

[Interviewer]

I know that when I work, I describe music oftentimes in color.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, I'll say this. This guitar sound is purple.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I mean, would you.

[Interviewer]

Maybe you're a closet synesthesia.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I would assume that then all producers in the world have it.

[Interviewer]

Sure. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Need to be more blue here.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, there's all that. Okay. I want to talk about something that does connect us together. So, like a lot of nerds in, you know, circa 80s, this flexi disc that comes out, and it was a guitar world or a guitar. It was guitar player.

[Steve Vai]

Guitar player at the time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And it was. The song was flexible.

[Steve Vai]

The attitude. Song.

[Interviewer]

The attitude. Sorry.

[Steve Vai]

From the record.

[Interviewer]

From the record. Right. I later got the record, but I.

[Steve Vai]

You got that record?

[Interviewer]

I did. But here's the thing about that. And, you know, like myself, you've been interviewed plenty. And, you know, you kind of get your list of these are the people that I've been influenced by. And, you know, you kind of you name check people because it becomes convenient. It's like, these are my seven guys. But sometimes you leave off the other three that, you know, maybe people wouldn't know or whatever.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I would never have thought of you as an influence. But in doing the research on you, I remembered getting this flexi disc. I would have been about 17 years old, and I swear to God, I listened to it last night and I was like, wow, I ripped a lot of stuff off of you. It's a cool. It's a cool connection that we have. Because.

[Steve Vai]

Because I've ripped a lot of stuff from you.

[Interviewer]

Oh, well, God bless you. I didn't know that. Okay, now I'm going to fall out of my chair. But there's a bigger point here besides my fanboying. But what was so amazing to me about that. That song at the time. And again, the attitude song 84.

[Steve Vai]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So in one three, four minute go, you play like about eight styles of guitar or something. You know what I mean? And there's a lot of joy in it and a lot of kind of sass in it. And I think I took a lot from that. I think, like, kind of like how I was saying, like, you know, when you were listening to Paige, there was still some part of you that had had to find Frank Zappa. You know what I mean? Like, you went left. I think you helped me go left in a way. You kind of gave me permission to be less rigid in my thinking about the guitar. Because up to that point, I just wanted to be a shredder like everybody else on the block, you know? So one day it was Randy Rhodes, the next it was Yngwie. You know, I mean, heck, I had Tony McAlpine records.

[Steve Vai]

I.

[Interviewer]

You know, I was. I was listening to all that. Yeah, I was listening. I was total shredder brain.

[Steve Vai]

I didn't know that.

[Interviewer]

But ultimately I got bored with it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I almost went through, like, a weird guilt phase. Like. Like, I could play like that, but it was. My heart wasn't in it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, I reached a point of like. Yeah, cool. But, yeah, something, Something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that's fatiguing. You gotta move to.

[Interviewer]

But I have to tell you, and I say this with all humility, I can. I remember getting that. I remember listening to it, and it was just like a plastic thing they would put in a record. But I was so blown away that. That you could play with virtuosity, but with. With a. With a wink.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It gave me a weird permission to put that into My playing.

[Steve Vai]

Ah, great.

[Interviewer]

Thank you. So it's a cool thing. I. And I would have never thought of it if we hadn't sort of found this moment.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, it's interesting that, because I. You know, Dave Grohl.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

They. He. They made that crazy movie. Oh, was it the Studio 666 horror movie? Yeah. Yeah. Well, they. They filmed it three houses down the street.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Dave lives in my neighborhood.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And he asked me to go and be in the film.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

There's a part where he's. He's supposed to shred.

[Interviewer]

Oh, and you're the shredder.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they filmed me from here. It was really great fun. But I was sitting with him and Taylor and they were telling me about their flexible influence. It was weird because when I made that record, I was going through personal transition, you know, psychological. I was coming out of this very, very dark place and had discovered metaphysics and new ways.

[Interviewer]

Was it just personal stuff?

[Steve Vai]

Personal.

[Interviewer]

Just head stuff.

[Steve Vai]

Head stuff.

[Interviewer]

Okay. But it was anything to do with music, though, or just. Okay, life.

[Steve Vai]

My music career was handed to me on a silver plat. I have no pro. It was just been great, great, great. But other things, challenges, you know, And I had gone through this very dark period and flex, and then I had discovered some light, so to speak, and that started to flow into what I was doing. So flexible was a total home experiment of just doing things that me and my friends could laugh at. You know, I'd go, hey, listen to this. Listen to this. Darn. Darn. You know? Yeah. And. And then on a whim, I decided to release it. And, you know, it's never thinking anybody would, you know, really have an interest.

[Interviewer]

You just reissued it recently, right? Am I crazy?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. We did like, a 36 anniversary. But I would never expect anybody would because it's such a weird, quirky, obtuse record. But it does have some joy. They've got a lot of joy in it. And David mentioned that he was into it and even mentioned the Attitude song as being an.

[Interviewer]

It's a. It's a certain permission.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right. Because if you're down in here, you know, trying to play Phrygian scales, you know, you spend so much time trying to catch up to somebody who's already there.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And even if you do three years, 30 years, okay. All you've done is just match their accomplishment.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I think that was part of my frustration. But I wouldn't have known how to voice it at age 17. Yeah, because I was the kid when I first started playing the guitar, you know, I was a bit new, wavy, you know, this is 80s. But so the metal kids in school, and I knew them, oh, you're playing the guitar. And then after about six months late, after six months of playing, somebody invited me to jam session or something. And I remember them all looking at me like, have you been taking lessons? And I said, no. I said, where'd you learn how to play like that? I said, I've just been practicing. They couldn't imagine that in six months I had gone from. I could barely play, you know. Stranglehold by Nugent.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I was able to play pretty well. Yeah. It was shocking to them.

[Steve Vai]

Because you found an interest.

[Interviewer]

Well, I was all in. I missed four hours a day and not nine, but I was there and I loved it. And my father, being a guitar player, I had a very kind of inner high standard that drove me. But at some point, I just sort of reached the thing of like, this really isn't me. Yeah, sure, it's not.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I think we all go through things like that. I know I did multiple times in various genres. But the cool thing is the variety is there for you to pick up for a little while, get something out of.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Pull into here. Maybe you pull into the Kiss garage for a little while and then you're in the Allen Holdsworth garage. But ultimately your voice is going to come through. And the evidence of that is all of your work, because it's authentic to the bone. I mean, it doesn't matter if you could. You know, the shredding period for you, I think, was very important for something.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it created a freedom.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I always say, and you said it before, but you have to have faculty to express what you feel.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's what I always say. I learned how to play whatever I could feel whenever I felt it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I don't really feel. Other than soloing. I feel no limitation in my playing. I literally can think it and out it comes.

[Steve Vai]

Isn't that nice?

[Interviewer]

And then as a singer, that's the. You know, you have to have this third wheel thing over here. So now we go down this other road. Steve Vai's rock star. The full. The Full Embrace. Right. So we got Alcatraz. You're following Yngwie there. Graham Bonnet. Great, great voice. I mean, what a. Yeah. Jimmy Chamberlain of the Pumpkins. Favorite singer of all time, Graham Bonnet. Really? Oh, my God, he loves Graham Bonnet.

[Steve Vai]

He's Graham. He delivered.

[Interviewer]

I just Talked to somebody the other day who plays with Graham and said his voice is still.

[Steve Vai]

Is it really? That's good.

[Interviewer]

They said it blows their mind. They get up and sing old. He sings Rainbow and stuff. It's like, there it is. There's that guy.

[Steve Vai]

It's like Glenn Hughes. I just discussed with him the other day, and I'm like, what?

[Interviewer]

I don't know where those.

[Steve Vai]

Adrian Ballou, who I've been with for a while.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's like another planet.

[Steve Vai]

It's different when it comes to this,

[Interviewer]

so we don't have to belabor. I. I did. I did have the Alcatraz YNGW records, because, again, I was in my shedding period, but. Okay, so Yngwey had a real rep coming in.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, with the. With the metal guys and the guitar world. And obviously, he sent everybody back to, like, try to relearn whatever the hell he was doing. And I remember seeing Yngwie play with actually. With Talis, Billy Sheehan's band opening and Aragon Ballroom, you know, Rising sun tour.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Jeff. Scott Soto was the singer.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm a Viking. And. And even at the end of the show, I was leaving and I was going down the stairs. I'm sure you've played the Aragon Ballroom, but this is an old ballroom where it's on the second floor. So I'm going down the stairs, and I hear. I hear, like, somebody plugging a guitar, like. And I think, oh. And I stood on the stairs and waited. And they started playing Highway Star, Billy on bass and Yngwie, I think it was. It was Yngwie's band, but Billy came out to play bass. And, you know, with Billy playing and. But, you know, Yngwie, back then, it was like, you know, I don't want to assume he was drunk, but he seemed drunk. And he. You know, he's laughing and he's playing in the guitar and. Yeah, so he had that weird street rep. So how were the metal fans with you coming in? Well, because back then, they could be a little.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, I was. I was. I was slammed. I mean, are you kidding? When I. When I replaced Yngwie, he had left the band, and they still had three gigs left.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I had one day to learn the entire set, and I was surprised they hired me, because back then, I went to a. It was the only time I ever actually auditioned for something.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You show up and. And none of them wanted me, except one guy, because after I came in, Chris and Pelletieri came in.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And Chris, he was playing like, sort of like YNG Bay. But the other one of the guys in the band just convinced him, we do not want another Ingve type. And there was something about what I was doing that they like. So I joined that band. But the first gig, I remember walking towards the stage and everybody was chanting, inbay. They did not know that he wasn't in the band.

[Interviewer]

Talk about a setup. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So I'm like, oh, this is going to be great. You know, it was. I didn't care if I was humiliated because it was an interesting experience.

[Interviewer]

Were you trying to play those. That type of scaling, or were you just kind of doing your own thing?

[Steve Vai]

No, I killed. I couldn't. Who could, you know? And I. I would do my own kind of thing. Which to an Ing Day fan, may not be, you know, it's not what they're expecting. But it was so funny when I walked out. I mean, the, you know, looks on the faces. I think it was, in a sense, successful because nobody cheered, but nobody left. Nobody left.

[Interviewer]

God.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Sounds like those dreams. Have you ever had the dreams where you're on stage and all goes wrong? Have you ever had that dream?

[Steve Vai]

I still haven't. There's two reoccurring dreams that I have. One of them is that I'm on stage with Frank and he's counting off something like, you know, alien Orifice or Radunzel. And I'm like, I haven't played it in 40 years. Go, go. And that's a reoccurring dream. But, yeah, go on, though.

[Interviewer]

And then David Lee Roth, fresh out of Van Halen, that band.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. That was fun.

[Interviewer]

Boy, there's that. Is there. Is there there. There's no Pro Shot concert of that. No, of that tour.

[Steve Vai]

Isn't that a shame?

[Interviewer]

There's that one. There's like a bootleg.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Montreal or something.

[Interviewer]

You guys are having such fun.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's.

[Interviewer]

The band is fantastic.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it was a great time.

[Interviewer]

Roth is in absolute prime form.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

High on whatever he was high on at the time. Mtv.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it was a great time because. Well, we were young.

[Interviewer]

How old were you at that time?

[Steve Vai]

25, 26.

[Interviewer]

Good time to be in a rock band. Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And back then, you could.

[Interviewer]

We.

[Steve Vai]

We wore the most outlandish clothes and this. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as I remember.

[Interviewer]

You guys just. There seemed to be a lot of

[Steve Vai]

running, running, running, running. It was fantastic. It was good for that. Then yeah. And. And we played our asses off. You know, it's like. Okay, it's not just about the funny clothes you're wearing. And around playing was to play your ass off. So Billy and I, we honed ourselves, you know, so it was a real special time, and it was great while it lasted. And I was able to kind of live in that world because as a teenager, even though I had all this interest in compositional music, I had. The rock music was just so embedded in me. And I knew it. It was like professional wrestling, in a sense, where you go out there and you're acting. In a sense.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, just, you know, but it's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So that's. That's why I kind of was after. Was like, did you want to be that guy or you were just having fun being.

[Steve Vai]

I was just having fun. You know, it was. I knew that it was fleeting.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

I knew that it was trendy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, and I knew that I was in a position where I could play my butt off, run around, wear. Wear great clothes, and then it'll be over.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And I'll just go back to doing the weird music that I love.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it was kind of a vacation.

[Steve Vai]

It was like a vacation. But then the White Snake gig rolled in.

[Interviewer]

But don't jump ahead.

[Steve Vai]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Slow down. Just. Sorry. No, because, you know, because of your interesting history, it also intersects with other things that people are fascinated by. So here's Roth, fresh out of Van Halen. So there's that. And he's obviously got something to prove, and he was out to prove it as he would as an alpha. Then, of course, there's this. The shadow cast by Eddie. Yeah. You know, if Yngwie cast one shadow, Eddie cast the shadow. Right. So you went from one fire into a bigger fire.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I kept stepping in something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And that stuff is what it is. I think now people can see. You know, like I said at the beginning, it's less about who won. You know what I mean?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's more about who's in the game and who's contributed.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think one harp I have about. And one of the reasons I wanted to do the show was I'm interested in reorienting what classifies as success in American culture. The old version, in my opinion, which is kind of like pre digital ages. How many did you sell? You know, did you win or did you lose? And if you lost, who beat you? Right. Like, who's the champ? Let's use the wrestling thing. I think we're entering a new era where it's not about who's the champ, it's like who's in and who contributes over a sustained arc. And even if at times maybe the story doesn't get told, there's a lot to learn from the journey of different people because most of the people who reach a level of acclaim, their story is very unique and it's a lot more rare than the credit would have you believe. Having been in the music industry as long as you have and I have, you know, one of the things they try to do is, well, we can just get another one of you and go back to Frank saying, you know, there's kind of really only one of you. As an 18 year old man, that's almost hard to believe. What do you mean there's one? I mean, there's 8, 7 million people on this planet. At some point you wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, actually there really is only one.

[Steve Vai]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And that's not a bad thing.

[Steve Vai]

No, it's true for everybody.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly. But I'm saying the business has been oriented, are oriented around the idea of convincing people like you and I that we're not that unique and creating a business model that sort of exploits what we do contribute, and then the minute we don't sort of fit in their business model, they toss us out the door.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm not the biggest fan of social media, but it's reoriented the landscape in a way that's allowed people to understand that people's value carries on a lot farther than what the old models would have you believe. So what's interesting about that period of your life is, you know, you look at this transition from, you know, because basically what people would call Van Hagar went on to be a bigger band in many ways than Van Halen ever was. And you're in that, you're in that very interesting position. You worked with one crazy alpha in Frank Zappa. Here's another crazy alpha in David Lee Roth, who's not just out to win the world, he's out to prove that he's got the better band. You know what I mean? And he's also relying on you to sort of make the case.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I'm not so much. And if you want to talk about your version of it from what it put on you, but I'm interested in how you perceived it from afar because you don't strike me as somebody who was out to like, I'm going to prove Eddie Van Halen Wrong. You know, it never felt that way.

[Steve Vai]

How do you do that?

[Interviewer]

Well, that's a different question. But my point is a person with less confidence or a person who feels. Think they could make their bones on Eddie's loss, they would have treated that gig a lot differently. You brought a lot of joy and fun to it. And then ultimately it led to you having some relationship with Eddie. Like he didn't see you as a. As a hostile combatant.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, because I wasn't.

[Interviewer]

But that's my point. And I think that's more of a tribute to you because most people step in that role would think like, okay, now I gotta. I gotta win something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Well, you know, in the background someplace, there was the extraordinary thought that I need to somehow keep up with Edward. Which is an illusion because you can't.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But what I could keep up with was my own expansion. I loved Edward. When he hit the scene, you know what happened? Yeah, we all just. Everybody's input. Jack closed up, you know, and then what's so interesting is when I just got that joke. Yeah. When. When the word was out that David Lee Roth was putting a band together and he was looking for a guitarist. I mean, it was probably the most coveted rock guitar position being.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's like being knighted or something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And I was in my little apartment in Fairfax street in Hollywood, and as soon as I heard that news, I turned to my roommate and I said, that's my gig. And. But it didn't come from a place of that's my gig. It was just this intuitive no matter. This like a little voice that said, too late. No matter what you do, even if you don't want it, it's your gig. It's just one of those things. And the next day, the phone rings and it's Dave.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You know, full, full, full diamond Dave. I'm sure. Full time. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

We're doing a movie, doing this. I want you to come on down. You know, Billy turned him on.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Turned me on to him. So I. I just knew that I could make it work because I had a rock and roll fire that I loved.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

In me. And I knew that I wasn't like, I wasn't going to try to sound like Edward or do anything like him because people are very hip to that kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

See what strikes me now, looking back, because it's what, 30 years, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, almost 40 years.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Right. I think at the time people quantified it. Try to follow my lead on this, because I'm not saying Anything negative is they quantified it as a failure.

[Steve Vai]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

Because Dave didn't do what he set out to do, which was beat Van Halen.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah. Well, on one. On that level, if you're comparing that kind of stuff. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But what's interesting is because of what you're saying, that's why people revere it now, because it isn't sub Van Halen, it's the band that he put together to do that. And now it's seen as complementary to the period. Meaning, like, it's another high point. Like, look at that tour, look at that band, look at the music. And again, Roth being in his prime was. It was an impressive sight.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, absolutely. We didn't have the songs. Van Halen had the songs for that kind of success. We had a really great.

[Interviewer]

Mickey Rose is pretty good.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, they're good songs.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But I know what you mean.

[Steve Vai]

You know what I'm saying?

[Interviewer]

Eddie's melodic bass is.

[Steve Vai]

He's got his whole ear for writing and, and sand.

[Interviewer]

That's the secret. That's the secret sauce.

[Steve Vai]

The secret. You can't replace that, you know? And. And we had. We had great music. I. I love the music. But when I say we didn't have the songs, I'm talking about those specific things that cross over at radio.

[Interviewer]

That's the. That's the. That's the. We have a saying in the pumpkins. Live by the rift, die by the riff.

[Steve Vai]

That's good. I like that.

[Interviewer]

You enjoy that. Yeah. So riff based music is very exciting, but it doesn't always translate to Let it be. Let it be. You know what I mean?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because it's. It's a different monster chasing a different thing.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's why Prime Van Halen is always such a cipher to so many people, because how do you. How do you be riff exciting and melodically reach everybody?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Think of.

[Interviewer]

Think of a song like Dance the Night Away.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Or Unchained. You know, it's like such a cool. Like one of the all time ultimate cool guitar riffs. The drop tuning, the whole thing. But it's a hit song.

[Steve Vai]

It's a hit song. And like a lot of that stuff, you know, jump and.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And. But the stuff with Sammy even, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Even more melodic.

[Steve Vai]

Even more melodic. So. But what we had with Dave Roth, we were like the. The roving youth gang, you know, Billy and I and Greg.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, he's great.

[Steve Vai]

It was really a powerful, crazy, different kind of a unit of intensity, almost

[Interviewer]

like Prague glam or something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Prague.

[Steve Vai]

Glam. Good, good. Monica.

[Interviewer]

Right. It says hard to describe unless you really get into it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah. And. And it was a good time for it and we were right on time and we did great tours and made a couple of really great records.

[Interviewer]

And so just indulge me one more question. So from your perspective. Oh, first of all, were you conscious of Roth's ambition in that moment? Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. So when it stopped working. Because at some point it becomes obvious it's not quite working. You know what I mean? Maybe not to the way. In a megalomaniac way.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, he was out to win it all. Movies, mtv. So when I say Icarus in the Sun, I mean he failed going for the top, top, top. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying. I'm saying you have a front row seat of this guy who's, like, in it to win it. He's all in. He's jacked, he's doing karate. You know, the whole thing. At some point, people around, whether it's atmospherically or the fans, they just don't. Aren't buying it. And you were there in that moment. It's a very interesting moment because.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

To many fans of Dave, and I'm one, it's kind of where it starts to go leftward because it's like something out of Shakespeare. It starts to topple under its own weight. The ambition was too big. Or you said, hey, we didn't have the songs.

[Steve Vai]

Well, that's really what it was for anybody. We had good songs and they sold us a lot of records. And the mystique of the band sold us a lot of records. But ultimately, the reason we're sitting here today is because you had the songs you just did. The evidence is clear. There's something in you that. The little shredder moment here was helpful at. This was helpful at. But you never. You just will never be able to deny or stop the inner melody. It's going to come out. And my expression of melody, it's not conventionally.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

Except it's not that kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

You.

[Steve Vai]

You give me an orchestra and, you know, I'm. I'm all melody. And even my, my music is very known for a shredder. But there's melody.

[Interviewer]

No, I. I mean, to me, your, Your most beautiful playing is this sort of liquid. Beautiful.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You know, it's.

[Interviewer]

It's very expressive.

[Steve Vai]

Thank you. And. But to have those songs that catapult a band and raise them up. Edward just had that sauce do you know what I mean? You couldn't just, like, we can go back and listen to every Van Halen song. And Dave and Edward were perfect kind of a communication there. So I think, to answer your question, that as Dave started to sunset from selling millions of records, we did pretty good with. When I was with him for the two records, like I say, if I believe, if we had the songs that were as accessible and inspired in a

[Interviewer]

top 40 way, especially in the time of hair metal.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah. Then it might have been a bit of a different story.

[Interviewer]

I see.

[Steve Vai]

But he needs that other partner that's going to help him do that. And I'm just not that guy. You know, I'm a different. I'm. I contributed certain things, but not in that realm. And then when I had left the band after those two records, okay, not

[Interviewer]

looking for gossip, but like, what's. What's the point of decision? Like, this has gone as far as it can go, or I need to go do something else, or I've had my fun or.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I loved making the money. I loved the awards. I loved all this. It was very nice.

[Interviewer]

It's nice.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's nice, but it's not. It's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, it's hard thing to say, but many that are in the position know that you can be successful and still be miserable.

[Interviewer]

Been there.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So what is it that. That really satisfies you? And sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to ask yourself that question till you've exhausted those things that you thought, yeah, we're going to bring that to you.

[Interviewer]

But you go one more round with Whitesnake and Coverdale.

[Steve Vai]

I know I did, didn't I?

[Interviewer]

You're like, just to be sure.

[Steve Vai]

Just to be sure. But it was after I recorded Passion and Warfare.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

See, that was. That was the thing for me. I loved that stuff I was doing with Dave. I love the rock energy and touring like that. But there was a gnawing voice in the back of my head.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's obvious.

[Steve Vai]

You have to do this. So I had to. I had to leave. And that's really the gossip.

[Interviewer]

Was your wife part of that? It's like something you'd sit around the kitchen table and go, I know, I got to go over there. Like, who in your life was the support to go? Yes, keep going.

[Steve Vai]

My inner being.

[Interviewer]

Okay, good. Because my point is I'm a person who blabs in my world all the time. You know what I mean? So the minute I would start talking about giving up the arena and the money. Invariably, somebody's going to go, are you sure you want to do that? You know what I'm saying? It takes a courageous person in your world to go. No. Happiness is the preeminent energy that we're after here. Not more gold records or.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I mean, I loved it, but I knew it was fleeting and I didn't want to compete with trying to have to release that whole career of pop music. And are these numbers as good here? And, you know, well, you're short here. And you almost were going, you know, radio won't take it because of this, but if you change this. And I've been through all of that. It has its place. But at some point, there's something in you that just says, you have to do this. You just. Matter of fact, not that you have to do it. Here you go, you're doing it. And I just found myself writing and recording Passion and warfare.

[Interviewer]

And that record, that's the thing that really.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that was. That was. That to me was success because it felt fulfilling and satisfying.

[Interviewer]

Did you see. It's not fair to call it a cottage industry, but did you see this world of guitar coming?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I knew that anybody, any artist at all that has creative impulses that are authentic, they're going to do something that's worthwhile and relevant. It's like I hear these kids say from around the world all the time, I can't make it as an instrumental guitar player in Poland because of this. This. And you were able to release instrumental guitar records because Joe Satriani had a record out that made it, or Jeff Beck. And my response to that is always, they didn't wait for anybody.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, they. These people that have that in them, they're just going to do it and then let.

[Interviewer]

What I mean by cottage industry is. And. And again, mid-80s, I'm with you. I'm like, I'm reading the guitar magazine. I know what you're doing. I see what you're doing. You know what I mean? Including all the other people of that time. I mean, I'm getting the magazine every month and this amp and this guitar and then the Floyd Rose and whatever. Yeah, right.

[Steve Vai]

It was fun.

[Interviewer]

But I'm saying, if you'd asked me at ground zero, 1990, early 90s, when grunge starts to kick in, and what was it? Gary. Huey.

[Steve Vai]

Gary Hoey.

[Interviewer]

Hoey, yeah. Remember, he had that big instrument, was one instrument song he had was mtv. So. But I'm saying, outside of that, if you'd said, would you place a bet on. On a bunch of guitar players being able to go out and tour and only play the guitar.

[Steve Vai]

I see him.

[Interviewer]

And sell records and be able to teach instructional classes online or. Or like Uli John Roth will do. He'll come to town and he'll have, like, a bit of a symposium and create a business model strictly around guitar playing. I would have said there's no way in heck, like, there aren't enough guitar players in the world who want to sit there. And it's actually happened. Like, now there's 10,000 guitar pedals where there used to be 200. There's so many more guitar manufacturers. It's exploded in a way that. Did you. I'm saying, did you see that coming? Because I didn't.

[Steve Vai]

Not the way it did.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

Because the industry didn't cater to that. But I did know that if something was worth its salt, it could creep into the mainstream. And there were instrumental songs. Not mine, but Satriani, Eric Johnson, that did creep in. And that's nice, but to me, it's not. It's. It's nothing I want to chase. It compromises your freedom.

[Interviewer]

But. But the point is. And again, cottage industry. And again, it's not a fair term. It's. It's. Maybe the foundational basis that I'm not laying is it's about the integrity of the pursuit. Like, let's call it guitar for guitar sake. I never would have thought that would be a business there.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right. In essence, you would be forced to be the guy in White Snake, and that would be your gig, because there would be no better gig for you to have. You actually made a gig that was comparable. And you would argue, I think that was better for you because it allowed you to have this free range of expression.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's what's so beautiful about it. Because sort of through talent and guile, you built something that I. As I. And I was there. I didn't see it, you know, I mean, I thought it was too nerd land or something, you know?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I was very fortunate because Passion Warfare was kind of like a pet project, was a guilty pleasure. And when I was making it, I thought it was the end of my career.

[Interviewer]

Was that a goodbye?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I thought, nobody's gonna listen to this. It's not Dave Roth. And I wasn't in Whitesnake at the time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So then when the White Snake offer came, I was put back into that pop rock.

[Interviewer]

One more time.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, one more time. And I knew again, I knew it was Short lived and fleeting, but could be a lot of fun. And all of those things like platinum records and a lot of money and all that.

[Interviewer]

A good time for Whitesnake too.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. That stuff happens and I never take that for granted, but it can't buy the satisfaction I feel when I listen to Passion and Warfare. It just can't.

[Interviewer]

That's really beautiful.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You know what that's like?

[Interviewer]

I do, I do. But. But it's.

[Steve Vai]

Again, but your music has, you know.

[Interviewer]

Well, thank you. But, but, but I would say. I would say this to people who aren't musicians. Pop music by and large, has. Has a built in form of compromise.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Back to Eddie for a second. What's so beguiling about Eddie was he really didn't compromise and it worked.

[Steve Vai]

Interesting.

[Interviewer]

But that's like one in a billion, literally. Probably even one in four billion. Yeah. To play that weird and have those weird arrangements, like, you know, the bridge in Unchained, but da boom. Like, who writes that in a. In a conventional bridge that's gonna go on the radio? Nobody.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So he got away with a form of murder.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because for the rest of us mortals, it's like, if you play that weird, you're not going on the radio.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you knew when you jumped in that pool.

[Steve Vai]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

This is not a commercial venture.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. One of the things I noticed also about the Van Halen camp was it there was a chemistry. So Alex Van Halen.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. Is unbelievable.

[Steve Vai]

Unbelievable. People don't know how much control he had. He had. He also has an inspired ear for cutting songs. Like, you know, Good Genetics.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Yeah. But Eddie has a great ear for the riffs and. But Alex and Dave played a very big part on shaping that.

[Interviewer]

Well, that's the frustration about being in a great band is you ultimately have to admit that your other bandmates had something to do with the success.

[Steve Vai]

Right. It's true.

[Interviewer]

So frustrating.

[Steve Vai]

It's true.

[Interviewer]

Okay, we're almost done. Thank you so much for indulging me.

[Steve Vai]

I'm here.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Beekeeping. Yeah, Take me into beekeeping.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, it's great. So we have bee.

[Interviewer]

We have bees, but our bees have died. And then we get more bees.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's.

[Interviewer]

Do the pea people understand? It's like it's hard to keep bees, right?

[Steve Vai]

No, it's actually pretty easy.

[Interviewer]

Okay, tell me the secret, because we've lost a lot of bees.

[Steve Vai]

Did you keep them? Did you have hives?

[Interviewer]

We live on a property where we have a lot of Woodland. And my wife's made an arrangement where a gentleman who does bees is happy to use our property.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, okay. So I know what happened. So back when I started with bees about 25 years ago. 30 years ago was. It was a simple. We bought this house in Encino, two acres. Place was vacant for 10 years.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I'm trying to research. How am I going to plant stuff. My wife wanted a garden. I wanted some fruit trees. And I realized, I discovered that honeybees are incredible pollinators. And I thought, well, that would be an eclectic hobby. That would be me, you know.

[Interviewer]

So are there photos of you and the beekeeping?

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah, no, for years. I still have bees. I got them right now. It was a great hobby.

[Interviewer]

Do you name your honey?

[Steve Vai]

Is it the VI Honey Fire Garden Honey? See, I named it after one of my records, but it's a simple hobby. But it can be complex if you get into it. And I know way too much about bees.

[Interviewer]

Give me the 62nd Zen of beekeeping.

[Steve Vai]

You're with the bees. They have a fascinating social infrastructure. They're calming. You're with nature. They make honey. They really are extraordinary. And they are great. They're vital for the environment, certain aspects of the environment.

[Interviewer]

Well, you know, there's this theory that cell phones is what's. Cause. Okay, I didn't know.

[Steve Vai]

I think because what happened when your guy was. When you were losing your hives and whatever was called colony collapse disorder.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And basically in a nutshell, there was a lot of theories of what that might be. Cell phone, cell towers, pesticides, this kind of thing. None of it made sense to me because the bees and many other animals get their directional facility from the poles, the gravitational pull, the sun, you know, the position of the sun. And the bees weren't dying, they just, they. Well, they were dying, but they weren't returning to the hive.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

They'd go out and they wouldn't come home.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And this happened 100 years ago and it happened all around.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so do they know what causes this collapse?

[Steve Vai]

Well, well, I thought it has to be something to do with the sun, the poles. And then finally a researcher out of UCLA had a theory that it. Because at that time there was huge sun.

[Interviewer]

Solar.

[Steve Vai]

Solar storms and, you know.

[Interviewer]

Solar flares.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, solar flares. Yeah, sorry. And there was other. At that time also animals. Dolphins.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Whales beaching.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, they were all going crazy. So that's what I might assume it was because it happened all around the world at the same time. And then it's dissipated now the bees are okay.

[Interviewer]

Did you know honey is the only foodstuff in the world that does not spoil?

[Steve Vai]

Yep. It can last 2000 years. Unless, oddly enough, two things will. Will destroy it.

[Interviewer]

Water. Really?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You can't get water in there. You can get botulism. And you don't want to take your spoon and dip it in the honey and put it in your mouth, then put it back because the enzymes dissolve the honey. I know too much about honey.

[Interviewer]

That's what I was going to say. This is a whole separate. Okay, couple rapid fire questions. The seven string guitar, you're to blame for Nu Metal. Sorry, yes or no?

[Steve Vai]

Well, the guys that wrote it and played it are more to blame.

[Interviewer]

Isn't it cool, though? Isn't it cool that they took something that you. You made for one use and took it a completely different direction and have done such cool stuff?

[Steve Vai]

It was glorious to watch. And you know what, Bill? I knew they were gonna do it because I. I was doing it with White Snake. Cause I had the seven screen, but. But my heavy sensibilities are different than the young guys that came along. And I remember we released it and it did okay. And then it started to fail, you know, started to slow down, and Ibanez was going to discontinue it. And I told him, don't give it a little more time. Because I knew that there was going to be fans, young kids that were starting to play, that would see the potential in it. And in my mind's ear, I was hearing these. I was hearing what was gonna be happening, in a sense. And I remember I was driving down the street one day, years later, and I hear this music on the radio. I'm like, what the heck is. And I pull my car over, I'm like, that's a seven string. Yeah. And it's not me.

[Interviewer]

Was it corn, perhaps?

[Steve Vai]

Corn, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Playing an A. Yeah. Wasn't enough to stay in the B. Gotta drop that. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You gotta lower the jockstrap, you know? And they worked fantastic. So good. Yeah,

[Interviewer]

yeah. Because I worked with Jonathan, the lead singer, Korn, on something, a single of theirs that came out. And he was like, at some point we were trying to find a melody because, you know, it's riff music, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And he was like, I've done 14 songs, 14 albums in the key of A. Right. That's a guitar player joke for you. Okay, okay. Another simple finish it up question. You've stood on two different peaks, which is very interesting. The big arena rock peak and your own. I don't know what you want to call it. But you've also been there with Frank too. Right. It's like Prague Peak, My own music peak, you know, self identity. I think you've said that your peak is a lot more fun. Well, if you had to choose, I guess is the unfair question.

[Steve Vai]

Well, they both really, all of the peaks that I've had the great honor of peaking have all had something in them that was very rewarding, very fulfilling. I mean, I got to be a rock star in the 80s. I mean, that good time, it was so great.

[Interviewer]

And then, thank God you were married.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. And I was very, oddly enough, you know, I was very straight. But I also really enjoy the ability to go out and play for other guitar players. You know, the guitar is, it's a universal instrument. And the fans of the guitar are rabid. You know, they are so passionate about the guitar and they're all over the world and I'm fortunate enough to where I've got a foot in.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

On that little pocket. So wherever I go around the world they come.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You know, I think in a weird way it's, it's brought the guitar back somehow.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I think it, it almost had

[Interviewer]

to kind of go back to a different route and rebuild. Back up.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because at some point it's, it, it's, I, I, it's not, it's not an instrument. A limitation. Yeah. You know that. But, but it can be because at some point you're going to hit some wall with it, it, the tune, the way it's tuned.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The way the frets work. Whatever. There's just a point where you kind of look at it go. I don't know what else to play. I've played.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know what I mean?

[Steve Vai]

Well, then you do things like build the hydra or something.

[Interviewer]

Right. Can you explain that, what that is? I know what that is, but yeah.

[Steve Vai]

The Hydra is a guitar that I had built by that Ibanez built that. It's wild looking and it's absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's got three necks. It's got a bass neck that has two fretless strings, seven string tuned down and 12 string with half of its fretless. And it's got like 13 harp strings. Oh my goodness. It's got synthesizers, piezos.

[Interviewer]

I haven't seen you play this thing live, but I have to come see.

[Steve Vai]

Have you seen the video?

[Interviewer]

I've not seen the video.

[Steve Vai]

You'll get a kick out of it.

[Interviewer]

Okay, I will find it. Okay, last question. All right, ready? Can you be too good at guitar?

[Steve Vai]

Can you be? Well, that's like saying it's a trick question. Thin or too rich? If you're a rock star, can you be too good? Well, that's a. It's up to the player. It's up to what they do.

[Interviewer]

This is my show. It's yes or no. Can you be too good at guitar?

[Steve Vai]

In my opinion, no.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Perfect.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Steve Vai]

Bless you.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.