Tom Morello | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Episode: Tom Morello | The Magnificent Others
Date: February 12, 2025
Guests: Billy Corgan (Host), Tom Morello (Guest)

---

Overview

This episode features an in-depth, candid conversation between Billy Corgan and Tom Morello (Rage Against the Machine, Audioslave, Nightwatchman) that explores Morello’s childhood, musical formation, experiences of race in America, activism, philosophy, artistic journey, and the dynamic between politics and music. The pair, with shared Illinois roots and Gen X sensibilities, recount history, examine generational impact, and offer insights into music industry realities and personal fulfillment.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life and Identity (00:00–11:10)

• Childhood Experiences in Predominantly White Illinois

  • Tom tells the story of being the only Black kid in his town—his mother, a white, globally experienced educator, moved from Harlem to Marseilles, Illinois for a safer, more stable life but encountered direct discrimination.
  • "I literally integrated the town, according to the real estate agent." (05:29, Tom)

• The Move from Harlem and Navigating Identity

  • Discusses how his mother’s life decisions and global outlook (meeting Tom's father in Kenya, settling in Harlem, returning to the Midwest) shaped his exposure to diversity and helped him identify cultural “touchstones”—figures like Billy Williams of the Cubs or Franco Harris in sports provided role models.
  • "She made a real sound effort to let me know that there was a world beyond that." (10:27, Tom)

• Impact of Upbringing on Worldview

  • Billy and Tom reflect on the ways their exposure to certain TV shows, sports, and music defined their sense of self among cultural and racial lines—they share memories of Illinois in the 1970s.

---

Discovering Music & Finding a Calling (11:10–20:26)

• Metal, Suburbia, and Self-Discovery

  • Tom discusses growing up musically isolated—no siblings influencing him, finding metal through comics and magazines rather than radio or family.
  • "I was on a solo musical exploration. That was through the magazines. I read Hit Parader and Cream and Circus religiously." (13:13, Tom)

• Late-Blooming Guitarist

  • Unlike many, Tom didn’t start playing guitar seriously until age 17, with formative bands influenced by metal, comics, and suburban angst.

• Harvard Years and Intellectual Milieu

  • Tom was the first student from Libertyville to attend Harvard: "No one had ever applied before either." (18:01, Tom)
  • Attended for social studies ("poli sci"), seeking to intellectually arm himself for activism:
    • "What the Harvard poli sci experience did was provide more arrows in the quiver for something that had been there from day one, and that was to stand up for the poor and oppressed in every situation." (22:08, Tom)

---

Moral Foundation and Political Awakening (20:26–24:20)

• Family Ethos and Social Consciousness
  • Tom credits his mother for instilling an ethos of standing up for the oppressed, rather than poverty or doctrine:
    • "The way that she felt about the world." (22:47, Tom)
    • "We need more people in the space, particularly in the arts, that are willing to kind of stand there in a manner of the aggression of their convictions, but not an aggressive posture that repels people. And I think you’ve done a wonderful job of sort of saying, this is what I believe, but it never feels like you’re shoving me out a door." (24:10, Billy)

---

From Harvard to Hollywood: Trials, Disillusionment, and Early Bands (24:20–38:48)

• Renaissance Fair to L.A. Metal Scene

  • Tom worked at the Bristol Renaissance Fair summers to help pay for Harvard, later moved to L.A. after reading in Circus Magazine that’s where metal bands ‘make it.’

• Culture Shock in L.A.

  • Struggled to fit into the Sunset Strip scene, not being “welcomed” due to image, finances, or connections.

• Senator Cranston and Disillusionment in Politics

  • Worked as scheduling secretary for Senator Alan Cranston, describing the experience as “seeing how the sausage is made”—revealing the relentless focus on fundraising.
  • Memorable moment: “If in my job I can’t tell a racist to go to hell, that’s perhaps not the right line of work for me.” (31:04, Tom)

• Lock Up and the Major Label Machine

  • Joins his favorite L.A. band, helps them get a Geffen deal:
    • "Everybody back home, everybody in Libertyville, thinks you're a millionaire." (35:18, Tom)
  • The album process strips out his signature guitar work: “They didn’t want any toggle switch playing. No guitar pyrotechnics... They were sure they did not want any of that on the record.” (38:03, Tom)
  • Band quickly fizzles; Tom vows to never again play music he doesn't believe in:
    • "I made a conscious, out loud, solemn vow that I was never gonna play another note of music that I didn't believe in." (41:09, Tom)

---

The Birth and Ethos of Rage Against the Machine (41:09–46:45)

• No Commercial Ambition, Just Authenticity

  • Rage was built out of defiance, with no expectation of industry success or club gigs:
    • "...there were no LA club bands that had the ethnic diversity of that band that was singing neo Marxist lyrics with Black Sabbath riffs and a punk rock fury." (42:23, Tom)
  • First performance for an industrial park worker:
    • "He stands up and says, 'Your music makes me want to fight.'" (44:07, Tom)

• Instant Live Impact

  • Their earliest show led to a living-room mosh pit: “The first song we played in front of people was 'Take the Power Back'...and when the beat dropped, the room exploded.” (46:02, Tom)

---

Reflections on Gen X and the ‘Lost Generation’ (46:45–52:25)

• Generational Mandate & Punk Rock Guilt

  • Billy frames Gen X as not “failed” but “lost,” lacking a “second act.”
  • Tom suggests the "guilt" of punk-rooted authenticity made Gen X's rock revolutionaries struggle with arena success:
    • "There was so much hand wringing that, I mean, just all you have to look at. Look at the release schedules." (48:37, Tom)

• Self-Sabotage and Art Breakdown

  • Billy recounts intentionally "breaking down" performances, rejecting mass acceptance (50:25–51:11).
  • Tom: "It was in the air...if you're trying to, in hindsight, look back...what filled that void?...the B, C, D grade Rage...because they showed up, they made a video, they were happy to be there." (52:03, Tom)

---

Rage’s End, AudioSlave’s Birth, and the Weight of the Message (52:25–63:31)

• Rage Breakup: Letting Go and Moving Forward

  • Tom unfazed by Rage’s initial dissolution:
    • "I was totally fine. I was like, you know, it was just sort of… now there's a new horizon. I am a person who, like, I have the genes of my coal mining forebears in me. I like to work." (52:59, Tom)

• The Power & Responsibility of the Platform

  • Rage’s impact as a political force was unique and difficult to “throw away”:
    • "Rage Against Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad." (54:43, Tom)
    • "…when you have a vehicle like that, to really a blank check of the things you can do in the world and the things you can say...that was a challenge for me as a dyed-in-wool activist..." (55:00–55:28, Tom)

• Tom on Ideological Differences Within Bands

  • Billy asks about differences with Zach de la Rocha; Tom: "It would be something that I don't entirely understand." (57:11, Tom)
  • "People are just wired different...what seems an impossible mandate to ignore is just how I'm wired." (57:17, Tom)

• Fusing Musical Styles—From Zach to Chris Cornell

  • Tom discusses shifting from Zach's unique approach ("the punk rock James Brown") to Chris Cornell's melodic brilliance:
    • "Chris was a person that knew his own mind… his greatest talent… was able to conjure beautiful, terrifying, perfect melody out of the ether." (61:16, Tom)

---

The Role of Politics in Art and the Diminishing Conversation (63:31–66:51)

• Should Music Be Political?

  • Tom: “There is nothing in the broadest sense that is not political… But as far as art, should music be political? The answer is no. The thing that is important in art is to be authentic.” (64:01–65:12, Tom)

• Why Less Political Music Now?

  • Billy: "Why is politics not a bigger part of the cultural conversation?" (66:16, Billy)
  • Tom: Points to the changed music industry, less unified audiences, the algorithmic fracturing of the scene; "at the time of Crosby, Stills, and Nash...there was a music industry...that's not the case now." (67:33, Tom)

---

Vision for America and the Power of Opportunity (67:44–70:00)

• If Tom Ruled the World: The North Star
  • "I'll name a North Star that everyone could become the person they were born to be. And whatever gets us to that is what I would be..." (68:22, Tom)
  • Stresses the need for systemic overhaul to offer true opportunity, noting, "Poverty is not something that happens; it is something that's created." (69:20, Tom)

---

The Nightwatchman, Directing, and Artistic Evolution (70:02–79:19)

• Nightwatchman: The Folk Alter Ego

  • Inspired by Springsteen, Guthrie, Seeger, Tom launched acoustic "Nightwatchman" sets at open mics for connection and flexibility:
    • "I would go sign up at open mic nights and...felt the greatest connection to audiences." (71:15, Tom)

• Directorial Aspirations: Judas Priest Documentary

  • Tom is co-directing a Judas Priest documentary, aiming to spotlight their central place in metal history and leadership in acceptance:
    • "From a musical point of view, a lot of what defined the genre of heavy metal was solidified by that band...what is in the DNA of every metal band afterwards." (73:44, Tom)
    • Both recount the power, and community acceptance, of Rob Halford’s coming out:
      • "They love him more than their bias. Now that is powerful." (75:22, Billy)

---

Life Stage, Legacy, and Fulfillment (77:19–79:19)

• Fatherhood and Artistry

  • Tom finds primary fulfillment as a father, but relishes synthesizing his career in recent solo shows and collaborations (including with son Roman Morello):
    • "The main orientation is to be a great dad...I love that." (77:19, Tom)

• Legacy and Living the Message

  • Tom articulates comfort with a multi-faceted career, embracing all his past acts and current collaborations, honoring both legacy and forward movement.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Your music makes me want to fight." (44:07, Anonymous industrial park worker, Tom retelling)
• “Rage Against the Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad.” (54:43, Tom)
• "We need more people in the space, particularly in the arts, that are willing to kind of stand there in a manner of the aggression of their convictions, but not in an aggressive posture that repels people." (24:07, Billy)
• "If in my job I can't tell a racist to go to hell, that's perhaps not the right line of work for me." (31:04, Tom)
• On legacy: “You have to be that fervent. You have to be that good… If you don’t have Kick Out the Jams, you could be that fervent—but if you don’t have that, then it doesn’t really matter.” (78:15, Tom, on the MC5 and Rage’s lineage)
• On his mother: "She's 101 years old... she walked the talk her entire life." (23:08–23:30, Tom)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–11:10 | Childhood in Illinois, race and identity, impact of his mother's choices
• 11:11–20:26 | Discovering music, metal as cultural lifeline, Harvard experience
• 20:27–24:20 | Family ethos, activism, moral compass, generational differences
• 24:21–38:48 | Moving to L.A., Renaissance Fair memories, band struggles, political disillusionment
• 38:49–46:45 | Lock Up, major label experience, the vow to be authentic, birth of Rage Against the Machine
• 46:46–52:25 | Gen X, punk guilt, the reluctance to embrace mainstream success
• 52:26–63:31 | Rage's breakup, AudioSlave’s creation, activism's role, band chemistry
• 63:32–66:51 | Music and politics, authenticity versus messaging, evolution of industry
• 66:52–70:00 | Social vision, moral philosophy, opportunity and systemic change
• 70:01–79:19 | Nightwatchman persona, transition into filmmaking, Judas Priest doc, legacy, fatherhood

---

Final Thoughts

The episode is a luminous, often humorous but deeply poignant revisiting of Tom Morello’s journey—grounded in personal history, artistic integrity, activism, and community; a meditation on what it means to live your values, navigate success, and keep evolving without losing your center.

Transcript

[A]

You know, I can't be like the one black kid in town, the only person to get into Harvard who then comes home without a degree. So I

[B]

get that. What is a non sectarian socialist.

[A]

It's an answer you have to give to Guitar World when they, like when they, when they try to hem you in.

[B]

Were you attracted to women in Renaissance garb?

[A]

Much more so than in real life. Radiance Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad. It drives men mad.

[B]

All right, we're gonna jump right into the deep end.

[A]

By all means.

[B]

Do you view the entire world through the prism of Star Trek like many Trekkies do?

[A]

No, no, no. I would say that Star Trek harmonized with suspicions that I already had about how the world might one day, you

[B]

know, how the Trekkies are.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. That everything.

[B]

So I gotta ask you one of these cheesy kind of questions. Who was the character on the OG Star Trek that you were most attracted to? Cause we do kind of define ourselves that.

[A]

Sure, sure. Probably Sulu in a way. Yeah, probably.

[B]

Can you give me.

[A]

Yeah, sure, probably Sulu in a way. Because I, first of all, I appreciated the, you know, the diversity in the cast, which of course was a big deal to me, being sort of like the only black kid in an all white town. But there was something about Sulu that it felt to me like he was. He didn't have. He didn't have the weight of the world on his shoulders and yet he was in the coolest one.

[B]

Is he the one that had the kind of the cool haircut?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That felt to me like he had like a lot of range.

[B]

I just found out the other day that his character was forced in by the network because they wanted a teen idolish character. And his character was. His haircut was based on the monkeys. Did you know that?

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

I literally just.

[A]

Well, it worked. It worked out. It worked out.

[B]

Yeah. God bless. I know you. I always, you know, because we both grew up in Illinois, not too far from each other. But how did you get from. Tell me the family story of how you got from Harlem, which is where you were born, in Chicago.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, my mom met my father in East Africa in Kenya. She was teaching there. And then I was born in Harlem and she was a single mom living. And.

[B]

But is this. Sorry to interrupt you, but. And again, who knows? Because, you know, you do your research, but who knows if it's true? Anymore.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I saw something where your father said, he's not my kid, and took off.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Okay, tell me the real story.

[A]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. So my mom was teaching in East Africa where she was part of a bunch of like sort of white US Teachers in the Aberdeen. Aberdeen Mountains where she. She went to teach and she met the people making Kenya's independence movement there. And that felt more interesting to her. And my dad, who's Jomo Kenyatta nephew, they became romantically involved. And that was not going, you know, sort of raising an American half white kid was not gonna be sort of a part of his destiny. So she moved back to the States. She wanted to live somewhere where she grew up was entirely white. She wanted to live somewhere with some diversity. Cause she was gonna be raising a black kid. So she moved to Harlem. And that's where I was born. Like West 142nd and Riverside is where we had a little apartment. The. She worked for the Jimmy Dean Show. Jimmy Dean who was both a star and made sausage.

[B]

Jimmy Dean of country fame.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sorry to interrupt because it's an important part of your life story. But that was the pumpkins go to road destination was the Jimmy Dean franchise because you got the best breakfast. Did Rage have a on the road breakfast destination?

[A]

I always liked it during certain swaths of the country. Waffle House, of course, would sort of,

[B]

you know, for us, Jimmy Dean was like, we were. We're really spending money.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was. I was aiming for more caloric intake. Just per dollar.

[B]

Sorry to interrupt.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You're on Important life story.

[A]

Totally, totally. It's totally fine. Both.

[B]

Both.

[A]

Those are important parts of my life story. Yeah. So she. We lived there for about. About a year. Then she moved back to central Marseilles, Illinois. I eventually ended up in Libertyville, where she got.

[B]

Marseilles.

[A]

It's Marseilles, Illinois. I never knew there was another way to pronounce.

[B]

Same here. So how old were you then? When you're 1 1.

[A]

When we moved.

[B]

Okay. So New York was not. No.

[A]

We would return in. There were people that I knew as aunts and uncles who were part of the extended family. It was the connection that she made through sort of the Catholic Church was Father Salmon, who was like one of the first black Catholic priests in Harlem. And he became, you know, he was the. He introduced her. He said, this is your family here. And so the people were my aunts and uncles. And he had passed away recently, but we reconnected with him more recently. So he was in our lives, which was pretty great and provided sort of another nest and another home away from the. Which is a very, very different life than the one in Marseilles and Libertyville.

[B]

I don't know what the percentage. The white percentage of. Of Illinois was in. In. In our. You're slightly older than me, but we literally grew up with the same television, the same radio station, so that's something we've always shared. But. But, you know, Illinois at that point, up until about 1972, when there was an influx of a ton of immigrants coming in, Pakistani, Vietnamese, Filipino. That's what I grew up in, in Glendale Heights. But Libertyville was.

[A]

Yeah, I literally integrated the town, according to the real estate agent.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say. So you grew up in a. Like an almost completely white world.

[A]

In a completely white world. And my mom, who was, you know, had tremendous amount of global experience teaching, you know, had a master's degree, couldn't find a teaching job in the northern suburbs because we were an interracial family. And she was a.

[B]

Blows my mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So walk me through that a little bit. So does she. How would they even know to discriminate against her?

[A]

Well, no, they. I mean, I'm not sure what it said on her application, but she was not sort of shy about what her. What her family was. And in multiple towns where she was, they said they, you can teach here, but your family should probably live elsewhere. Very. It's like straight up, like, get that.

[B]

Did that wound your mother in any way?

[A]

No, not at all. Mary Marie. Like, not at all. She was. Well, she was knowing you a little bit.

[B]

That doesn't surprise you?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she finally. The reason why we lived in Libertyville was there was a high school friend of hers from Marseilles who was teaching at LHS at Libertyville High School who was able to vouch for her and her family. Yeah. And so then. So. But then we had to find a place to live. So the. The apartment complex across from the high school, the real estate agent had to bring us door to door so that. To introduce us so there wouldn't be any surprises. And I was. They. They made. They made it very, very clear that this was not some, like, an American Negro child. This was an African princeling who was to try to sort of soften the blow of. Of the. Of what was happening and that, you know, and honestly, that worked pretty well until I was old enough to date their daughters, and then they didn't care if I was the king of Botswana.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

You Will not be crossing the welcome mat on homecoming night.

[B]

I'm curious because I have my own mental version. But so what for you is your sweet spot of youth in Illinois? Like, you know, like, we both grew up on the Bozo show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So what is your halcyon day? Like, if you had to do a snapshot, you riding your bike, I would say, and I'm not talking teen, like, you see.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say some summers as a

[B]

kid, but give me a year though,

[A]

let's say seven or eight years old. So 72 somewhere. 72 to 72.

[B]

Okay, so what are you listening to what I'm doing?

[A]

I'm collecting comic books, which is, which is huge. The Marvel Iron man, like sort of the Iron Man Avengers and whatnot. Also like the DC World Weird War Tales. And I enjoyed those as well. But it would be summers where we would spend the summers in Marseilles. Marseilles is very different from Liberty. Libertyville was a Marseilles is downstate, right? Yeah. It's a former coal mine. The Morellos were coal miners.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it was a former coal mining town that was a bucolic like, like no one locks their doors now. It is, it's a very, very different, you know, it's like the bad end of a Bruce Springsteen song now. But. But at the time it was. We'd spend our summers there. So it was just by riding bikes, you know, collecting baseball cards, playing, you know, excelling on the little league team, swimming in the radium filled pool, you know,

[B]

very Illinois.

[A]

Yes, very Illinois. Playing with Hot Wheels and you know, just at nights with the, you know, mosquitoes and fireflies, sitting on the front porch with the family.

[B]

So because you were growing up in a, you know, predominantly doesn't even describe. You're basically growing up in a white world.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

What, what was it that you saw in the culture that you were attracted to? And I'm not trying to make it a black or white race thing. I'm trying to say who were your cultural identifiers that you thought, okay, that's kind of. That feels like me.

[A]

Billy Williams. Billy Williams looked like he could have been my dad.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, and it was. I've later reflected on this.

[B]

Have you met Billy?

[A]

Yeah, I spent some time with you. That's cool. I haven't, I haven't shared that with him, but.

[B]

But that's cool.

[A]

But yeah, yeah, he was like sort of the, the light skinned, you know, Chicago Cubs, pre Star wars or not Billy Dee Williams. Billy Williams of the Cubs.

[B]

Oh, Billy Williams.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Billy Williams of the Cubs.

[B]

Oh, that Billy.

[A]

That Billy Williams.

[B]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now, yeah, yeah, you got a Cubs baseball.

[A]

Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Right, but yeah, so that was, you know, that was. That was a. You know, as a. Again, my mom was also, like, the only single mom in town. Like, we were really unicorns on. On. On multiple fronts. But, like, Billy Williams was this. I was a big fan of sport. Franco Harris, too, was another because he was both. Both Italian.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

African American. Yeah. And those, you know, so sports guys

[B]

that you say, okay, not that. Not that. That could be me. That at least feels like.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of beyond the community, that. And also in my household, like my mom, we would. My mom was very, very. She didn't want my existence to be ethnically homogeneous one. So we would go to, like, church groups in North Chicago and in Waukegan. So I had friends that were sort of outside of Libertyville as well.

[B]

So she was giving you this sense of, hey, there's a bigger world. That's correct. Oh, that's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Did you talk at any point later with your mom about that? Like, what her thinking was? Sure.

[A]

I mean, it was. It was. It was. We would go back to Harlem every summer. She just wanted. She knew that this was the place where she could have a job and she could. A life for our. For our little family. But Marseilles was not Marseilles. If anything was probably whiter than, you know, Liberty 99.9 instead 97.8. Because I wasn't there for three quarters of the year. But she made a real sound effort to let me know that there was a world beyond that. There was a world of identities and people beyond the ones in Libertyville and Marseilles.

[B]

So we have a mutual love of heavy metal. Yes. And I'm struck by, you know, like, you're saying your mother went out of her way to make sure, like, hey, look, this is the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We live in this world, but there's this other world out here. But, you know, outside of, say, Tony McAlpine.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. I mean, there weren't a lot of brothers playing metal. No, I mean, it's none. It's maybe gotten a little better, but it's still very much rooted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't think it's a race thing as much as a suburbia thing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It strikes me that ultimately metal is a suburban phenomenon.

[A]

Yeah. Birmingham notwithstanding. But. Yeah, but even.

[B]

But even then, it's still Birmingham. You know, you talk to people in the uk, Birmingham is the suburb. Sure.

[A]

As far as they're concerned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what was it about metal that you found some form of kinship?

[A]

Yeah, well, I. I found music on my own. My mom had a couple of wrecks. There was some classical music, like, my great uncle had played. Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Right. So there was some music in my house. My grandfather was a talented pianist. But the records in my mom's house were. She had War's Greatest Hits, you know, and a couple classical records. I had to find music on my own. And where I found it was via comics. When I. I was a fan, Kiss was my favorite band. Before I heard a note of their music, I saw the. The record was on sale at the A and P grocery store, and I was like, well, that's. I need to have that album.

[B]

Which. Which Kiss album?

[A]

Destroyer. Destroyer. Right.

[B]

I mean, good place to start.

[A]

A fine entry drug. Yeah. Right. Fine entry drug. And so that was the music that I first was, you know, imprinted. Imprinted with. And then, you know, every magazine that had Kiss on the COVID list had other bands inside. They were Led Zeppelin, they were Aerosmith, they were Ted Nugent, later Maiden and Priest. And so I didn't have. There were no older brothers influencing me. Like, I was on a solo musical exploration. That was through the.

[B]

And back then, it was really. If you heard stuff on the radio was one thing, but if you were in Iron Maine, it was all word of mouth.

[A]

That's right. 100% word of mouth. Yeah. And through the magazine, like, I read Hit Parader and Cream and Circus religiously and studied them and then saved up, you know, There was not a lot of income for that. So I had to really think about what record I was gonna get. So I would study these magazines, and then it looked like Aerosmith Rocks was gonna be the Target album.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, and then did you do.

[B]

Ever do the record club thing?

[A]

No, I never did.

[B]

We made that mistake. We were like, this is awesome.

[A]

Thirteen albums for one. And then.

[B]

And then three months later, our stepmother comes, goes, what the hell did you do?

[A]

Exactly. You may still be paying it off

[B]

now because you get a record you didn't want. And that was the scam. You had to send it back.

[A]

Back. Yeah. And nobody's sending.

[B]

And they would send you, like, the just total dreck.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Once they were the ones they were unloading.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So then I. I love metal. And then. But. But I wanted to be. I was a singer before I was a. Before I was a guitar player. Like my idol was Robert Plant, before it was Jimmy Page. And then my voice changed and that. That sort of put some.

[B]

You started playing guitar, what age?

[A]

I didn't start playing till I was 17. Yeah. I got my first. Late, very late. I got my first guitar at 13. Took two guitar lessons that made me think that music wasn't for me. And it sat in a closet.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have this theory. No one seems to pick up on it yet, so I'm bringing it to you. I'm sure I told you about this before, but I do. Fascinating that Adam from Tool, you. And obviously you guys had a band together when you were young, and there I am living probably 20 miles away from you guys. And we all grew up in the same atmosphere. We all started bands that were predominantly riff driven. Yes, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we took music in three completely different directions. I find that really fascinating. It's the closest thing. And somebody will get mad at me, but it's the closest thing to back Clapton and Paige kind of growing up in the same hood.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we have had our influence on what followed. So if you want to get mad at me, they can.

[A]

But that's not an insane theory. That's not, no.

[B]

But I find it really fascinating because what was it in the water that we were all drinking?

[A]

Right. Well, there's. I mean, the one thing that all three have in common is metal. You know, like Adam and I, we were in his truck driving up to Alpine Valley to the pre shows and the Iron Maiden and the Dio shows. And then I think what's interesting is how like that metal DNA appears in all three. But then there's how it branches off.

[B]

Might be comic books for all the hell.

[A]

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think I do see a similar in this. And when we have a mutual love of Priest and Sabbath, there's something about growing up in an industrial working class area. Maybe our dreams are bigger somehow or they're more rooted in fantasy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because it's so dreary.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. You know, like what is beyond the Dairy Queen?

[B]

Like, you know, and because you've lived here for years and we all have friends here and you know, people that grew up here, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, I went to school with Gene Simmons kid and, you know, Steve Lukather used to drive me to school.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we're Like, I remember the first time the pumpkins went to Europe, we saw our first famous person, and it was. It was Bonnie Tyler.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Total clips of the Heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She was in the same hotel, like, oh, my God, it's Bonnie Tyler. And nothing against Bonnie Tyler. Cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great songs. But, I mean, we weren't into Bonnie.

[A]

No, no, no. But we were like, oh, my God, you saw a celebrity. My first famous person was Daryl Hannah, who I saw sitting in the back of a car in Westwood, and I went to a payphone to.

[B]

Did television, like, what you were watching in television, did that kind of help?

[A]

Sure. I mean, well, the stuff that I leaned into it was, you know, like the Planet of the Apes TV show and stuff like that.

[B]

I remember that TV show.

[A]

Oh, really? Oh, yeah.

[B]

Was it a cartoon or was it.

[A]

No, it was Rodney McDowell reprising his role as Cornelius.

[B]

I just interviewed Paul Williams, who was famously in battle for the Planet Apes.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now, yeah, TV was, you know, it was the TV Guide, and there was the Saturday morning cartoons. It's a world that, like, our children will never understand. And how you had to, you know,

[B]

to remember when you'd watch stuff you didn't really want to watch because it was on. Right. It's like, there's four channels, and I'm gonna watch this cooking show, or I'm gonna watch the cooking show, because the person cooking's kind of hot, Right. And the next.

[A]

You're waiting for the next show, too.

[B]

Yeah, but the tv.

[A]

The TV guy would come out. I remember circling, you know, like, you're waiting for Happy Days and there's a Godzilla movie on. Creature Feature and whatnot.

[B]

I feel like. And correct me again, because this is the world of research. Was Hollywood first before Harvard or Harvard, then Hollywood?

[A]

Harvard. Yeah. No, I was. I was the. And I'll say preface this by saying it is through no unique genius of my own, but I was the first person from Libertyville to ever attend Harvard. No one had ever applied before either. So there was not.

[B]

Were you a really good student?

[A]

I was a really good student, but no one had ever. Like, I went to the guidance counselor, you know, with good grades, and I was in drama club and had some other stuff. And they said, you know, you're shooing at U of I. Here's the application, you know, because that's

[B]

what you do in Illinois. That's what you do.

[A]

You go to U of I.

[B]

And if you're a stoner, you go to Illinois State.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, or clc. You go to clc. But I looked over his shoulder and I saw there was like the Colleges of North America, a musty ledger. And I said, can I borrow that? And I read it cover to cover, and I learned that there were universities. First of all, University of Illinois is a fantastic school, but there's other schools too.

[B]

So it wasn't like you grew up thinking, I want to go to Harvard.

[A]

No, I could have cared less. Honestly. I would have been happy to go to clc. Very happy to go to clc. But I thought, why not apply? The thing that was most appealing about it was their endowment was so huge that they accepted their freshman class need blind. So basically their freshman class is a social experiment. It's like we're trying to get a group of people together that will learn from and teach each other. And I just thought that was that rather than like, there's the X number of alumni kids and the ones that can afford the school. And that to me just felt like. Like that was. There's a different idea of how to have. Have a school. And that was so.

[B]

Okay, now you're going to Harvard. Yeah. Poli sci.

[A]

Was the Poli sci. Yeah, but I was. But it was. I started playing guitar at 17, but I was. Had the calling at 19. I was at the little rehearsal room under the, you know, where we had dinners under the cafeteria. And it was, you know, the skies opened. There was a moment of improvisation where I felt a calling like this. And I had many other interests. I was an artist, I was a writer. I was interested in leftist political revolt. And I was like, I now am a guitar player and I have to bend everything around that.

[B]

And it hadn't struck you before that?

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

In terms of an identity.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that. And then while balancing a poli sci major at Harvard, was it challenge? Because I, you know, I can't be like the one black kid in town, the only person to get into Harvard who then comes home without a degree. So I. I get that. Yeah. So I had a better soldier on.

[B]

What. Because I was actually recruited out of high school for political science. It's a weird story, but it's not important. But what did you. What? Because, you know, you're so closely attached. Yeah, that's not the right word, but. But people see you as a political person. You've always been a political person in the public sphere. That's who you are in front of the camera and backstage. But what was it about Polly? You know, political science did that help you kind of. I don't want to be as glib as thinking like you learned the stratagems, how to take over the world, but it might have had something to do with your aggressive.

[A]

Yeah, that was the hope. The hope was to arm myself intellectually for the coming struggles, you know, that was.

[B]

Well, you're in the right place now.

[A]

That was the hope. Exactly. Exactly. That was the hope. You know, and it's poli sci. The people who are watching this who are from Harvard. It's actually the. Harvard doesn't have majors. They have concentrations. It's not called poli sci, it's called social studies. So there's gonna be someone who's gonna. Now that that's cleared up. But you just. It's interdisciplinary. It's part philosophy, part history, part economics.

[B]

But did it inform you in a. I don't know. To me, some people, when they're calculated, it reads to me poorly. Your calculus. And I say this respectfully. It's always struck me as thoughtful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have a vector of attack here, and I know. And somehow you have a light touch to it. I don't know how you do it. No. But I feel like you're one of the only people that could preach to me, even if I completely disagree with you politically, and I'm going to listen and I'm not feeling like you're tapping me on the cheek.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's a. Well, thank you. But I just like the. What the Harvard poli sci experience did was provide more arrows in the quiver for something that had been there from day one, and that was to stand up for the poor and oppressed in every situation.

[B]

Now, where do you think that comes from?

[A]

My mom. 100% from my mom. It was the ethos of my home.

[B]

Was this something she talked.

[A]

No, no, it was just the ethos of my home.

[B]

You're in it.

[A]

I'm in it. I'm in it in a way that was sharpened when I.

[B]

Sorry, real quick. Was it because you guys were poor or. It's because the way she felt about the world.

[A]

The way that she felt about the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We didn't have a lot of money, but I never thought about that because it was.

[B]

No, I get it. I'm just saying it's like. It's, for lack of better word, it's your family tradition.

[A]

It is very. 100% the family tradition, which I, once I was in high school, realized how unique that was. Not just in my town, not just in my high school, in my town, but in the world.

[B]

It's very unique.

[A]

Yeah. The, the person.

[B]

Is your mom still alive?

[A]

She is 101 years old. I was just talking with her.

[B]

God bless you.

[A]

She's having a day to day, which I was negotiating, but she's fine. She's good. Yeah, she's 101 years old.

[B]

That's intense. Yeah, that's intense. Because, you know, we live in an age where a lot of people talk, a lot of hashtagging and stuff. I love people who walk the talk. So your mother walked the talk 100%.

[A]

Yeah. Her entire life.

[B]

I think that to me is what defines where things go. Yeah, we're always going to disagree about this and that, but you got to be in it. And you've always been that person too. I'm going to stand here and I'm going to tell you what I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you walk the talk.

[A]

I'm compelled to. It's not. To me, it's like.

[B]

No, I get that. But I'm saying it's a. I have a respect for it and I think, how can I put it? We need more people in the space, particularly in the arts, that are willing to kind of stand there in a manner of the aggression of their convictions, but not an aggressive posture that repels people. And I think you've done a wonderful job of sort of saying, this is what I believe, but it never feels like you're shoving me out a door. And if that comes from your mother, mad respect for your mother. Like you said, that's not something everybody grows up.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

I just grew up with my dad smoking joints, looking at the TV and going, they're all liars.

[A]

Which, which. No, but I'm saying, which is an important political point of view.

[B]

But it wasn't based on any. My father told me his whole life he was an atheist and then later changed to agnostic. And then later it changed to, I believe in God, but I don't know who God is. Okay, but. But you know when he would sit there and say, this is. It wasn't attached to anything. It was. There was no call to action. Right, right. It wasn't like, son, you can change the world. Yeah, it was, son, you're. Because they control the world and there's nothing you can do. That's not.

[A]

Yeah, that's a different.

[B]

What do you do with that?

[A]

Yeah, what do you do?

[B]

Because when I did have some power in the world at different times, I didn't know what to do with it, you know? And you got People in here. Well, you don't want to say that you're gonna sell less records, you know, and unless you have a sort of a. Some internal moral compass or something that you believe in, then you're. Then you're just like anybody else and you're. You're. You're susceptible to the winds of.

[A]

That's correct. I think that moral compass is a key thing. And for better or worse, that was baked in.

[B]

Senator Alan Cranston before or after Hollywood?

[A]

So moved to LA and with my Harvard degree unable to.

[B]

Why did you go to la?

[A]

Because Circus magazine said that's where I had to go to play in a heavy metal band on the Sunset Strip in order to have a club. I love that.

[B]

It's that shallow. I'm coming.

[A]

Where else would you go? Yeah. So I moved out here and I couldn't get 86. September of 86.

[B]

A very ripe period for the Sunset Street.

[A]

Incredible. I mean, I. First of all, I was. Make it clear I was never any part of it. There was no. The welcome mat was not put out. Like, first of all, why? Well, one, you had to either be, you know, scantily clad in lingerie to get in the clubs or have 12 bucks. And I didn't fit into either one of those. Either one of those cameras.

[B]

You're the guy on the street looking through the window.

[A]

I'm the guy on the street collecting. Yeah. Literally, like me and my roommate, we would just sit along, sit on that, like, curb outside of Gazaari's and just watch the pageantry go by. But I couldn't get hired. Well, I couldn't get hired. I couldn't get in a band and I couldn't get a job. Those are the two things that I. My only work experience had been five summers at the Bristol Renaissance Fair. That's how I worked my way through Harvard. Was.

[B]

Did you dress up in Renaissance garb?

[A]

What else would you do?

[B]

Are there pictures?

[A]

Of course, that I'm proud of as we get out of this interview. It's all there for you.

[B]

I can't believe I've never seen it.

[A]

Yeah. Pirate shanties and, you know, I was like a wandering minstrel for five seconds.

[B]

Were you attractive to women in Was

[A]

I attracted to women?

[B]

No. No. Were you attracted to women in Renaissance Garp?

[A]

Much more so than in real life.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Goth has a similar aphrodisiac effect. A woman in normal clothes versus a woman in goth clothes.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

It's true, though.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, there's sort of this suspension of like the nerd. The Star Trek comic collecting nerd that you are, you know, playing D and D in Libertyville and then the, you

[B]

know, in Glendale High School.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The suave Jheri curled troubadour at the Renaissance Fair.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Two very different romantic.

[B]

So I read when you were working for Senator Alan Cranston, you found that disillusioning.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Can you. You don't have to belabor it, but I'm. The easiest thing is I'm just looking for more meat on the bone. How you became you.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You know, because in many ways, and I got to. I don't remember when we first. I felt like we met like around 92, 91, very early on playing Family Feud. Thank you. I visited you at an apartment. I remember that I could still see us at the apartment. And it was a mutual friend of ours, photographer said, oh, come meet this guy. And so we've known each other that many years. But when you did, say, burst on the American consciousness as Tom Rello, you were pretty fully formed, you know, a walking wreck in progress. You seem to be like. Like. Yeah, like, there you were.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I mean, both the band and. So personally, I was pretty crystal clear. Sure.

[B]

But I think what's interesting is that doesn't just happen overnight.

[A]

No, no, no. I mean, the thing about working at the senator's office, I was. It was the only job I could get with my Renaissance Fair resume. I mean, I could juggle, but I couldn't. I'd never worked retail, so I couldn't be hired to sell Iron Maiden T shirts.

[B]

But you gotta go all the way back to D.C. or you're out still.

[A]

No, I was his schedule. Senator Cranston's scheduling secretary for California.

[B]

Okay. So when he comes to California.

[A]

When he comes to California in Southern California.

[B]

I just read Senator. I sue. Yeah, he's my. He's his. That's why I was confused about that.

[A]

I'm responsible for his schedule. Yeah. But the thing about it, that was, you know, I got to see really how the sausage. I scheduled the sausage making, so I know exactly how it's made. And the job is to ask rich people for money. The end. That's the job. And, you know, he had progressive opinions about the environment and immigration, this, that and the other. The job we used to go at the time when we were traveling, I would commandeer a hotel's bank of payphones. So there's like 10 payphones and they're the senators payphones. So I'd call a guy. Number. Rich guy in Texas. Number one, can you hold for Senator Cranston? Boom. Number two, can you hold for. So the phones are just dangling. There's nine phones dangling with people waiting to be asked for money. And then when he hangs up this one, I come back around and we start the process again. And that was, it was just so.

[B]

For someone of your moral conviction, that must have been really.

[A]

No, it was a day gig. It was always just a day gig.

[B]

No, but I'm asking the emotional question. It must have been hard for you to watch.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was. But I had, But I was so dismissive. Dismissive is the right word. I was so sure that real change does not come through electoral politics. When I had that job, I was always a radical and a revolutionary at heart. Trying to be in a rock band, like, trying to buy apple juice and wheat bread was why I was working, while I was working.

[B]

But still you're getting a. Yeah, but you're just behind the wizard's curve.

[A]

The thing, the thing that was the most disheartening was one day this woman calls up, and I would sometimes field calls from constituents, and she was complaining that Mexicans were moving into her neighborhood. And so I don't know what she wants the senator to do about that. Perhaps some pogrom, apparently kick the Mexicans. And so I told, I said, you know, ma', am, you know, you're racist and you can go to hell. And I, and then, you know, she called back and I thought that I had represented the senator well, because certainly he wouldn't. What, what kind of, what kind of phone call is that? I just, I got yelled at for two weeks by everybody up and down.

[B]

What do they say?

[A]

Like, like you can't treat a constituent that way. You know, you're representing the senator poorly. You know, it's not your job to express opinions like that. I thought if in my job I can't tell a racist to go to hell, that's perhaps not the right line of work. Me. Yeah.

[B]

What is a non sectarian socialist.

[A]

It's an answer you have to give the guitar world when they, like when they, when they try to hem you in.

[B]

Well, after this, I'm going to ask you about guitar pedals, but first I need to ask you what is a nonsect.

[A]

First of all, first of all, the labels. I, I, I think that it's a. You do yourself an injustice and you do your, your, your enemies an injustice by sort of like I, but the political program that I've always followed, I said it earlier, is you always stand up for the oppressed in every instance.

[B]

So is there a label for that, or you don't want a label?

[A]

I don't think. I mean, that has fallen under many different labels through time, from anarcho syndicalism to, you know, to what? Standing up for the people on the.

[B]

But stand up and shout.

[A]

Stand up. Exactly. Dio had it right. But I mean, you find that both in liberation theology and you find it in the Communist Manifesto.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That. That point of view is one that I think on a daily basis, I do my best, both in my art and in my. And in my life to enact.

[B]

To the. To the crowd that just hears somebody wants free money or somebody wants stuff that they haven't earned or what. What do you. Cuz I. You and I are totally aligned morally.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I. I find it really difficult to watch, you know, this incredibly wealthy, diverse, and rich country. I don't mean just rich. I mean, look at our art and look at our culture that we haven't sort of figured out how to take care of people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not even talking about, like, the handout version. I'm talking about why can't we organize our society in a way that's just a lot more kind?

[A]

Yeah. Because it's. That's not what it's meant to be. Because it's the. Well, that's an underlying profit motive that precludes that being something that.

[B]

So what would you say to people that when they hear us talk like that? Recoil. What is it Are you making? I guess what I'm asking. Is it a moral argument you're making? Is it a. Is it a Here's a better system argument? Like what. What argument would you pick?

[A]

I think you start with the moral argument is. Is that should it ever be okay for children to go hungry? Start with that.

[B]

As a child who went hungry many times. No.

[A]

Start with that. And if the answer is no, then that's. That's. Start pulling that thread and see if the whole sweater unwraps.

[B]

Right. Okay. Yeah. I just. I. I'm not really interested in politics in this forum, but, you know, in your case, it. It does define your art. So you're A unique opportunity to kind of poke at it differently. Let's talk about lockup.

[A]

Sure. Happy to. I almost wore my lockup shirt today. That would have been perfect.

[B]

1989. Geffen, are you having the. I got a major label deal. I'm in this is gonna be great.

[A]

It's it.

[B]

People think, walk me. Walk.

[A]

Give me.

[B]

Because I. I didn't know this part of your history.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm surprised. I don't know. I do remember hearing about Lockup.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

So what is Tom Morello in 1989 thinking?

[A]

Sure, sure. Well, at one night, Adam Jones comes over to. Who's working in prosthetic makeup at the time, comes over to my apartment to be a wingman. He wants to go to a place called Al's Bar. I'm like, dude, I gotta go to the Center's office at 8 in the morning, please. I'm like, fine. We see a local band playing called Lockup. I'm like, this is a. First of all, it's a different kind of club. It's not a Sunset Strip club. It's in downtown la. It has a much more of sort of a punk rock earthiness. And the band is fantastic. It's kind of like a. A raw. A really raw early Chili Peppers. Funkier and harder.

[B]

Yeah. I was surprised because I heard some kind of.

[A]

Yeah. Funkier and harder this morning.

[B]

A bit. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And they became my favorite local band. Through a great set of circumstances, I eventually joined my favorite local band. I was the junior member. Everybody was five or six years older than me in the band. And while on the one hand I think that I maybe made the band worse by making it a little smoother, a little more metal, a little more shreddy solos that maybe it didn't need, I definitely made it more appealing to record commercial like I could not.

[B]

So you were part of the getting of the deal?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I was helped. I could write songs and stuff too. And we got a deal. And everybody back home, everybody in Libertyville, thinks you're a millionaire.

[B]

Listen, you can go back in a time machine, right? Okay. Because I think it illustrates the point. Anybody, but anybody who had a record deal in 1989, that era, pre grunge, anybody, but anybody playing loud guitar that had a deal on a major label. It was like, how.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

It was that big a deal to us in Illinois. We were like, how do you do that?

[A]

It was incredible, you know, but, you know, I'm living with. With five roommates in a squat is where I'm living in.

[B]

No, I get that, but I. I'm. Again, it's this idea. Now. We're not talking about the world through television, like us watching Gilgan's island in the Basement, but I'm saying is the idea that a band could get Signed playing heavy music in 1989. I mean, there was probably. How many bands do you think were signed that were heavy, like, not like metal bands. Like let's call it the. The Coming Hard Rock Alternative Revolution.

[A]

Heard of the Sound Gardens and the J.

[B]

It would have been under 15 or 20 bands in the whole world.

[A]

Y. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So for us it was like. Oh my God.

[A]

So.

[B]

So what are you thinking?

[A]

I'm thinking. Well, I'm thinking like I've realized my dream. I'm gonna be a. I'm gonna be a rock star. I'm gonna make albums. So there's. I have albums at home and now there's going to be an album.

[B]

Who produced the first Lockup?

[A]

Oh, I forget dude's name. He was the guy that did the Faith no More record.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Faith no More record and one of the Replacements records. But we went up to the site. The, the, the, you know, the, the studio in Marin County. Like the beautiful studio where we're. The. We're like the east side Los Angeles punk. Like most of our gigs were at like at hardcore gay bars. Like that was where the punks. There was a punk scene there and we're in this bucolic setting where there's, you know, there's. There's a hot tub. You know, the chef is reclining beautifully in the hot tub. Deer are coming up to the studio. It's very Led Zeppelin 3. We're like. We have no idea what's happening.

[B]

You're not at a castle.

[A]

Get close. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we made a very sterile, very sterile record.

[B]

Why do you think it was sterile?

[A]

I think it was the intent of the record company. They wanted.

[B]

When did you. Sorry, I haven't worsened a record. When did you figure out. Was it too late when you figured out.

[A]

Oh yeah, it was too late. It was when there was a lot of influence in the production to dampen down sort of what I do. And like there's talk of keyboard. I was very prejudiced against keyboard stuff. Like I had to physically disable, at night, sneak down and disable the keyboard. The, the, the. The road so that it wouldn't be on the record. But they didn't want any toggle switch playing. No sort of guitar pyrotechnics. Like the stuff that was most me. They were sure they did not want any of that on the. On the record.

[B]

Yeah. Cuz when you listen to the record, it sounds like you're not quite you yet.

[A]

No, but.

[B]

Which is weird because. No, I don't know that other Yeah, I was a shredding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, but it makes sense because it. It tells me that they just sort of took away.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's not like you hadn't figured yourself out.

[A]

That's correct. I. I still hadn't intelligent, but I was more. It was more Nuno Betancourt than Andy Gill, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I get it. It felt a little bit anodyne.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. So the record kept. But we listen. We listened to what they said because they're the experts. This is Geffen Records. They've got Guns N Roses and the Tom Zutat's there, and, you know, there are a lot of voices in the room, and surely this must be the way to go. And. And then we named the record possibly the worst record name in the annals of western music. Something this Way Comes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was not. Like I said.

[B]

I was a junior partner. Do you go on tour?

[A]

We go on tour. We have our 15 minutes where they. They hear a single and you're being promoted and you're at horrible places in different. You know, in Phoenix and in Denver where there's, like. People are like. There's cocaine dishes in bathrooms like you've sort of seen in Led Zeppelin movies. And it's just so off putting to me. And it's completely, you know, a big cl. I grew up on metal, but the Clash was my heart for. You know, for. And then those 15 minutes, I mean, it was probably more. Closer to 15 seconds were over and the record company stops returning calls. The. The. The touring entourage goes from six to four to two, to the four of us in a van.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I realized, like, the dream is dead, you know, like the. I had my grab at the Brass Ring, and I failed to grab it. And we're summarily dropped. We try desperately to, like, replace some band members and do another showcase and make another demo. And I'm older now, and I was done. I remember I was 27 years old, sitting on my couch when the singer of Lockup called. He and I were the last two in the band that he called to quit.

[B]

You could have continued.

[A]

He called to quit, and he hung up. And the first person I called was Brad Wilk, who I had jammed with.

[B]

You reminded me of a story when we were on the Chili Pepper tour in. Pearl Jam was Pearl Jam Pumpkins. Chili Peppers was the bill. We played about 40 shows on that tour. And during the tour, that's when under the Bridge took off. And that record just blew up like crazy. And Pearl Jam had, I think, one song out, it would have been alive or something. And I remember coming to one of the gigs, it was about halfway through the gig and we were hanging out with them every day. Like, she went to her and they all looked like, you know, somebody had died. And I said, what's wrong with you guys? Because you're usually kind of an upbeat bunch. And they go, they're going to withdraw our tour support. And I was like, you're on this massive tour. And I said, well, if this single doesn't catch, they're going to pull our support. That's what people don't understand about the way that business worked back then. If that song hadn't caught on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they pulled.

[B]

So you went through that exact support. Yeah, that's it. It's like you're done.

[A]

Yeah. And there's the four. You're. You're three, 2,800 miles away from home. No one's returning a call. There's gigs where there are literally no one. There's a. There's a waitress and a monitor guy, you know, at the. At the gig. And so when you called Brad. Yeah. Well, I was clear. I was crystal clear on the mistakes that had been made. From my point of view is that I had listened to experts and look where it got me. And look where it got me. And I made a conscious, out loud, solemn vow that I was never gonna play another note of music that I didn't believe in. I knew now that I would never make records and I would never be a rock star and I would never fulfill the dreams that I had in Circus magazine when I drove in my Chevy Astro van out to Hollywood. But I was still a musician and there was value in playing music that was meaningful to me, even if I was the only one to ever hear it. And that was the North Star that has, you know, the next 21 records has, you know, guided my fate.

[B]

That's interesting. So in your mind, when you guys did put Rage together, it was like, okay, we don't care where this goes, but the one thing we are going to do is be uncompromising.

[A]

It wasn't even that. There was no. It wasn't even. We don't care. There was. There was zero commercial ambition. There was no hope of booking a club show when that band formed. Like, there was no. There were no LA club bands that had the ethnic, you know, diversity of that band that was singing neo Marxist lyrics with Black Sabbath riffs and a punk rock fury.

[B]

Now it all seems very obvious In a weird way, but at the time

[A]

and in that rehearsal room, it was crystal clear that there was nowhere for this to be other than that we liked it. And the goal, the sole goal was to do the thing that I felt my purpose was to do. The thing that I was unable to do with Lockup was to make a great cassette. So we. Before playing any shows, we just made a record. We made a cassette of 12 songs or whatever. And to have. Just to have it, and that felt like that was enough.

[B]

Did that cassette kind of catch on?

[A]

Well, we then did some open mic nights. We played open mic at Al's Bar. We played a couple open mic nights. And the first. The first. The first time, though, that we ever. I'll tell you, the first time anyone ever heard the music. No one had ever heard the music. And they were playing Industrial park, rehearsing Industrial park in the Valley, not too far from here, where we're doing this interview. And there's this dude who, you know, worker guy. And he said, what are you guys doing in there? I said, we're a band. He said, would you like to. He said, can I hear it? We're like, let's see, why not? So he comes in. We had about five songs together. He sits down on the floor, we play 5 Rage against the band doesn't have a name. 5 Rage against the Machine songs.

[B]

Was there. Was there a name before?

[A]

No, no, no, no. It was just sort of the. No idea. We hadn't gone anywhere near that. And afterwards we said, what do you think? And he stands up and he says, your music makes me want to fight

[B]

Nostradamus.

[A]

And he had. And he had sort of a. Like, his posture was that of like a honey badger, you know, when he said it. And we're like, oh, well, how about that? Let's introduce. Interesting. And sure enough, people have been wanting to fight to that music ever since.

[B]

Yes. I remember the first time I saw you guys live. Might have been like a European festival or something. And there was a lot of buzz. I don't know if we were headlining or. It was one of those things, like, we were playing the next day. Yeah, but everyone's like, you got to see this band. You guys just had that buzz right away. You seem to come out of nowhere, but obviously you did. And the first three songs, I remember thinking, oh, my God, what is happening? You seem to tap into that vein in the exact right moment, with the right crowd in the right. It was very interesting to witness in real time because these things, they get A little softer in reverse. You know, we can all show the footage of us all jumping around in the 90s.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But at the time, it was shocking. And it wasn't shocking, the politics, I thought. Yeah, do your thing. You know, it was shocking in that something that was so, on one level, sparse and muscular seemed to animate this crowd into a frenzy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we were used to playing. It was grunge days, you know, mosh pitch. You guys took on this other crazy thing. So when did that. When did that thing click?

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was at the first show. We were playing at a. A living. Punk rock living room party in Huntington Beach. Someone's parents made the mistake of going away, and a friend of Timmy's said, you know, does your new band want to.

[B]

Famous ass words.

[A]

Does your new band want to play? And, you know, I played a lot of. In a lot of bands in my life. And there was. We were set up in a living room, you know, with the. With the Rage against the Living Room. Yeah. Some kids watching, you know, from through the living room window behind us. They move the armoire out to the side. And the first song we played in front of people was Take the Power Back and starts with, like, the bass line. Tim's all jacked up. It's twice as fast as it was later to be on record. And when the beat dropped, the room exploded. I mean, the room exploded from the first snare hit. And there was a huge mosh pit. In the living room. In the living room. In the living room. We had five songs at the time, and people were going so bananas. We played the same five songs again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was that feeling from that show to the European festivals, you know.

[B]

Yeah, pretty much.

[A]

Pretty consistent.

[B]

I want to talk about other stuff. So I. It's not that I want to skip over the 90s, but it's probably the most documented part of our lives. But I'm curious because I have my own take, but I'm. Obviously, I want to ask yours. I view not Gen X as a failed generation. I view us as a lost generation because we had. Did, we did. We did have a mandate and a mantle. And whatever happened, whether it was Kurt's death or the shifting tides, including the beginning of Napster and all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what's your kind of general take on, let's call it? Because one thing I've been sort of, you know, I like to try to be trendy with my quotes, but I've been saying Gen X has yet to have a Second act. I don't know if that resonates with you.

[A]

Yeah, well, I would say from a musical point of view, and I won't say I blame it, but I think an explanation might lie in something that we could call punk, Rot, Guilt. And that part of what made the forerunners of the various branches from that tree, from the Pumpkins to Rage to Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Soundgarden, Nirvana, et cetera, was that it had a. There was a familiarity in that we all had maybe Kiss and Sabbath record. At least one dude in the band like, cared about that a lot. But they. There was also a love of Minor Threats and Fugazi and Bad Brains and those. It was those conflicting ideology. When the music, the music's married well to make festival crowds go absolutely bananas and feel something that they couldn't have ever felt before with just metal or with just punk. A real, like, synergy of awesome kickass music with ideas and art and poetry. But the people who made it were so conflicted about their own success. And when you're playing in an arena that Poison played five years ago, there was so much hand wringing that, I mean, just all you have to look at. Look at the release schedules. I mean, I think you put out maybe more records than. But Rage records came out every five years years. Tool records every six years. Nirvana records, like, with a lot of guilt every so often. And it was just like we couldn't. There was a part of the ethos was. I can't stand the success that is happening because it makes me feel like I've betrayed principles.

[B]

You are ringing bells in my head that are. Haven't been rung for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my feedback on that is. Is we ended up headlining LaPlus in 1994. It was originally supposed to be Nirvana, Pumpkin's Beasties. And then probably because of Kurt's problems, dropped out. Certainly. I was talking to Courtney during this day. So I kind of heard what was going on behind the scenes. Anyway, so we end up headlining the. The festival. And I still think to this day some of my problems. And obviously it's our problems because I created them was. I remember standing there in front of. And you know, that was the biggest traveling lollaplus of them all. The one we did 42 shows. It was packed. It was that.

[A]

That era where it's just packed.

[B]

And by the way, it's all young people now. If I had any marketing brain at that time, it would have been like, keep your mouth shut. Just play the hits.

[A]

And yeah.

[B]

Live to Fight Another day. No, I. I and Jimmy Chamberlain called it the Art Breakdown. We were doing. And you would know this song. I am One off the Gorge, which has that. Cool. No, I made him totally change the groove.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

We did this weird tribal.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we'll show them.

[B]

Oh, yeah, trust me, I showed them. I'm still paying for it. So Jimmy's playing this other tribal groove. By the way, the song's only three years old. And I'm changing it.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And we get to the break where normally there would be the solo, the dual solo. And I would have the band kick down into this kind of groove and I would just proselytize.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I went after Middle America.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Night after night.

[A]

How dare you like us?

[B]

How dare you sit. How dare you like us? How dare you. I don't know. And Jimmy called it the Art Breakdown and my enduring memory. And we laugh about it now. And this is back when Jimmy smoked was. I was doing the Art Breakdown. And basically, if it went on too long, he would just stop playing drums. And now I'm just talking or yelling.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it was like. It was, you know, a little bit on John Lennon. I don't believe in pumpkins. I don't believe in mtv. Whatever. The.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was saying, it sounds like you're

[A]

living the thing that I just described.

[B]

So. And I'm. I'm. You know, I'm on the monitors.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, and I'm screaming and I turn around and I just see Jimmy like this, pacing behind his drone, smoking like. Like.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like a Woody Allen. Like, oh, my God, what nightmare has he got me?

[A]

So you were not alone. You were not alone.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

It was in the air, and it's under. It's understandable. But. But if you're trying to, in hindsight, look back, well, then here's. Here's. Here's the. If the right don't get you, the left one will. So what filled that void? I remember Talk fair. No, no, it was. It was the. It was the second. It was the B, C, D grade Pumpkins, the B C, D grade Rage, the BCD grade Pearl Jam. Because they showed up, they made a video.

[B]

They were happy to be there.

[A]

They were happy to be there. And so these people, these. The. The. The overall genre was created and then the sub pockets were created. And then the bands didn't f. Created an audience that didn't fulfill the need. And so these other bands came along that make the period now, you know, when you listen to, like, you know, A Lithium station. There's a lot of songs on them. Like, ooh. Like, I remember that era more fondly than perhaps, you know, perhaps I should.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I've been there. So I don't want the gossip part of the band breaking up in 2000. I was surprised when. When the band broke up.

[A]

Up.

[B]

2000's right. Am I right about that? That's also the year we broke up. But where did that put you psychologically? Because I, I'm. I'm. I'm sure there's plenty of talk and it could become from other guys, but, like, okay, everybody wants to focus on the breaking up. But I always think about the day after, you know, you wake up and you're like, you look out the window. It's like, okay, well, that. Now what do I do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm kind of curious where you went from there.

[A]

I was totally fine.

[B]

Fine.

[A]

You know, I was. I was totally fine. I was like, you know, there was, you know, it was difficult, and then it was just sort of. And now there's a new horizon. I am a person who, like, I have the genes of my coal mining forebears in me. I like to work. I like to go to work.

[B]

Yeah, you are a worker.

[A]

I like to go to work. And so when, you know, the singer left the band, I was like, tim and Brad and I wanted to play together. We spent every day over at Rick Rubin's house figuring out what we were going to do next next. And that was, like, exciting. And I had, you know, you know, we had only made, you know, Rage, had only made three records of. Of new music in 10 years. And I had a stockpile of, like, ideas and jams and. And stuff that I just couldn't wait to see what happened next.

[B]

This is a funny way to ask this question, but hope it lands. You know, when we're in the intensity of those moments, it. And we're still relatively young, we don't really have a true conception of the way people are gonna view what those years were like or what that music represents. And, you know, as. As everybody who's a fan of yours would know, you guys went on and did lots of credible stuff without your singer. So it's not like, you know, it's not the thing of, like, that didn't really work out. And you end up working with Chris Cornell, who's obviously one of the great singers of all time. But what I'm trying to say is none of us can when we walk away from our situations. And again, we walked away in the same year. None of us can really understand how the public is going to ask us to redon the Superman cape one more time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So did you have any sense of that at the time?

[A]

Are you kidding? Yeah. I mean, I look at Lord of the. Rage Against Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad. It drives men mad. The fact that it is, you know, managers, agents, fans.

[B]

It's probably driven you mad a couple times.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But exactly. And so, you know. Yeah, there's a. Here's the thing. One of the great challenges for me is that I don't just come from a musical background. I was an activist before I was a guitar player, you know, and. And in that world, when you have a vehicle like that, to really a blank check of the things you can do in the world and the things you can say and the things you can stand up for and the money

[B]

you can raise, not only that, it's very hard to be successful by being radical in anything. And to be. Let's call it culturally radical to be talking about the farmers in Mexico.

[A]

There's never been anything like it. There have been bands that. That maybe were more political, but had nowhere near the.

[B]

Well, especially in ra.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And there may.

[B]

Is there even a close second?

[A]

There's. I mean, and there are bands that, you know, might be bigger, that have touched on politics, but nowhere near the level of radical, that rage against Machimo. So it was a, you know, a challenge for me as a dyed and will activist was like, are you kidding me? Like. Like, this is a very unique historical circum.

[B]

Circumstance. So if there was anything that aggrieved you, it was like, we're throwing away the power of the pulpit.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

That we've eclipsed.

[A]

That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. And when Audio Slave formed, like, I was. I was like, okay, the only thing that I'm sure of is this band is going to be more political than Rage against the Machine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That was the.

[B]

Let me take you one step back. And I'm not looking for gossip, because I'm really curious, because I don't know Zach at all. But. But Zach has always struck me as somebody who was just like you. Those issues were highly, highly personal to him. So. And if it's inappropriate, we just cut it out.

[A]

But

[B]

when you sat him down, and I imagine you must have at some point, like, do you understand these things are important to you? We have this vehicle. I'm not even talking about Record sales. Do you understand? We have this. This. This jetliner that allows us to voice things that are really dear to heart. What was his sort of inner rationalization?

[A]

It would be something that I don't entirely understand. Okay, Yeah, I don't understand.

[B]

Yeah, I get that.

[A]

I just said that people are just wired different. You know what I mean? And that what seems to me like a impossible mandate to ignore is just how I'm. That's my perspective.

[B]

In the Pumpkins, that was Darcy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The three of us would be like, oh, this is so logical. And she would be the person that raised her hand, like, not to me.

[A]

Yes. And you'd be like, yeah, yeah. And over time, you sort of accept that people are.

[B]

Yeah, no, now, now. And with some age and some wisdom, I can be like, you know what? That's kind of what made the band work in a particular way. But when that runs out of road, it's very strange because you're like, can't we just.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it's. I want to talk about Chris because he's such a gifted talent, so let's just stay on that. I don't want to talk about the tragic part of it all. Zach, obviously. Is it fair to call him a rapper? I don't know. You know, I mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he has a multiplicity of vocal styles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Very, very, very, very talented. And always liked his. Where he's coming from.

[A]

A lot of.

[B]

Well, that band could not have been successful like that if the four ingredients didn't work.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You guys really were a sum of the parts. And that's no disrespect, but having played with Brad, and, you know, even because Brad did the one tour with me, when Brad would lean into a groove, I'd be like, oh, that's why that thing works. So you know that because that's your guy. But I had to play with Brad to understand that's part of the secret sauce in that. The way he leans on a hat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like geese. It's Bill Ward. Bill Ward fed through some. You know, I don't know.

[A]

Like, when you. When you saw those fields of bouncing, you know, that's. That's that guy. Yeah.

[B]

And even, you know, because I'm a guitar player, and so when I would listen to you guys, I'd oftentimes focus on what you were doing. But then you realize, you know, Tim is just such a cool. Like, he plays cool stuff. His pocket is really interesting.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[B]

So, you know. But you got to peer at it from the inside out. So I'm. I'm just curious. Maybe this is a good way to talk about Chris. Okay, so you go from a guy who's basically a very gifted vocal stylist, SL. Rapper, to one of the great.

[A]

Yes. Ro.

[B]

Robert Plant.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, cover Dale for us, Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, I'm like, that must have been kind of like, well, this is interesting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it was, because it's the success, musical success, in my view of Rage against the Machine is that it was a hard rock punk version of the James Brown formula. Everything comes back to the one. It's the one. The one. The one. The one dot There may not be a chord change in the catalog of Rage against the Machine.

[B]

I'm over here waiting for a teacher.

[A]

And that is. That's its dynamism. That's its power. That is the reason why it is. It makes the field go crazy like that. Now, when I practiced my 20,000 hours, I practiced a lot of stuff other than that. And so when we started playing with Chris, it really sort of unlocked. First of all, one of the things that was interesting when we first talked with Chris about making music was he had been the principal songwriter in the music writer in Soundgarden. And he was like. Like, I don't want to do that. I want to concentrate on lyric and melody. Throw stuff.

[B]

That's really surprising.

[A]

Throw stuff at me.

[B]

I hadn't thought about it like that, but when you say it, it makes sense to me. When I listen to the music, throw stuff at me.

[A]

And we were like, great. And I. You know, I. Everyone, did you.

[B]

Sorry. But did you implore him to at least? Because he's so. He. He wrote.

[A]

I'd be like, give me. Throw me a spoon, man. Every once in a while I would,

[B]

you know, because he wrote really cool, asymmetrical.

[A]

He was.

[B]

Was.

[A]

He was. You know, Chris was a person that knew his own mind.

[B]

Like that song. I don't know what the title is. Like, Fell on Black Days.

[A]

Yeah, Fell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's such a cool. Only Chris would have played that riff.

[A]

He was surely. He was. He was like, this is what I want to do in this thing. And in some ways, like, really freed us to, like, the one thing his not. Chris was a great, great vocalist, but his greatest talent, in my view, was able to. Cheekbones aside, was able to conjure beautiful, terrifying, perfect melody out of the ether.

[B]

Yeah, because you're basically. If you're droning out of the ether, there's not a lot of melody in the music.

[A]

But now. But so that. What that meant was when was song like. Like a Stone. Like the melody that he sings on the record is the melody he sang the first time we. We did it in rehearsal. I Am the Highway. These beautiful songs, like these sort of simple cowboy chord progressions that. Or a more complicated riff like Bring Him Back Alive, which is like a big, heavy, Sabbathy, Sabbathy riff. Those are first. Like, the first thing that came out of his mouth were those he later fits the word, fits the words to them. And I just, you know, I. You know, having. Having been in a band with a tremendous vocalist in. In, you know, in Zach, I just like, oh, so the guy's singing. Rick was Rick Ruben's. Like, you don't understand. Like, you don't understand that how rare what that guy is doing is. And that these songs are just like coming out of daily. Just coming out of nowhere. Yeah. That are pretty spectacular.

[B]

Yeah. Tony Iommi. I saw this one thing once where somebody had asked Tony to compare Ozzy and Dio, and I think it was when Tony was a bit sour about what had happened. So there's a. There was a little bit of a diss in it, but what he was really saying was that Ozzy always sang with the riff.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Dio was gifted enough to sing stuff that the riff didn't imply.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So I. That's kind of what I hear you saying.

[A]

Just to be clear, that no one. No one has ever done what Zach did. Like, he's a. The punk rock James Brown is what he is. Like, it's part Bad Brains, part James Brown, part Public Enemy. Like, that combination and the way that his vocals rode on top of the music was. You know, I think that had Rage against the Machine had a melodic singer is. Oh, no, it would not have been audience. It wouldn't have.

[B]

For lack of a better word. I always thought of rage as a weapon.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We had elements of that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it wasn't our thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I thought to ask you this because again, you're the one of the only people I'd be interested in. The answer, it may sound too obvious to ask you, so I'm not asking for a layup answer, but do you think politics should be in music or is it a personal choice?

[A]

I would. I have two thoughts on that. One is that there is nothing that in the broadest sense is not political. There is no art, there is no music that does not fit somewhere in a cultural Context that pulls either in bread and circuses way or towards a more just and equitable future way or towards a more.

[B]

Is it because in your mind, it's rooted in humanism?

[A]

I just think that. I just think that, like, I thought that the Scorpions records were not political, but there are in the artwork and some of the lyrics are, say, opinions about women that influenced my young self to look at the world in a way that could not be described as apolitical.

[B]

You know, I get that.

[A]

Yeah. And. And in. In some of the biggest pop music bangers, they're. Which I greatly enjoy some of them, there's a bread and circuses component that if we just focus on the celebrity of this person and on this song, let that be enough of your personality pie that you're not grabbing a pitchfork and a torch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. But as far as art, should music be political? The answer is no. The thing that is important in art is to be authentic. And for the sake of Tom Morello, you should not try to write political songs. You should write what is meaningful to you. And if it's girls in cars, then please write that. And don't pretend that you want to write about Peruvian, you know, labor unions or marching powder.

[B]

Why do you think politics has a diminished role in music? Because you and I certainly grew up with Crosby, Stills, and now Jackson Brown singing about no nukes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even. Even, you know, there's a political element to the boss's music.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

But culturally, if you take a snapshot where we're sitting here, right here in 2024.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel in my lifetimes, politics has never been more out of music that I know now, Matt. It might have been different in 27.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. For our world. Yeah. I would say that I agree with you to a point. I would say that politics is very much in music. It's not so much in music at the top of the charts. You know, it's not so much that there's.

[B]

Okay, so answer it this way. Why do you think politics in music is not. I would call it, a bigger part of the cultural conversation.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like Neil Young writing for Dead in Ohio.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

One of the great political testaments. You know, they were so horrified. You know, they literally. Because I recently read Graham Nash's book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our house was climbing up the charts. They literally yanked our house, wrote a

[A]

song, and four days later. Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, that's. That's. Yeah, that. I mean, that's the Rage against the Machine playbook. Which is like, we're gonna stand with what we believe.

[A]

That's right. That's right.

[B]

So I don't see as much moral courage in the culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm including myself in that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I would just say, like, it would. It would be interesting. I mean, maybe there was that song this Is America during the George Floyd. There's a couple of markers, but it's certainly not, you know, and it's. My best answer to that question is I'm not entirely sure. The landscape of how music is put forward is very, very different now. And at the time of Crosby, Stills and Nash, there was a music industry, a great, great band, but they got through a funnel that everyone in the Western world knew that there was a band called Crosby, Stills and Nash. And when they had a new song, you were going to know it. Whether it was. Was our house or whether it was Ohio. That's not the case. That's not the case.

[B]

Now that makes sense. I have this thing I call if I Could Wave a Magic Wand. So if you could wave the magic wand, but it's. Or a variation would be if I Ruled the World.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What America would you like to see if you could, you know. And we know it's not that easy. Yeah, yeah. And we could. Human condition, whatever. We all have these conversations about expensive dinner tables.

[A]

But.

[B]

But as somebody who really grew up with certain convictions, has lived them in public with great conviction, and that's something I really admire about you. What. What America would you like to see? Is it a. Is it a blow up the system and start over?

[A]

I could. I would sort of. I would say I'll name a North Star.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'll name a North Star Star that everyone. Everyone could become the person they were born to be. And whatever gets us to that. Is what I would be.

[B]

Is that. Is that require assistance and opportunity or.

[A]

I think that.

[B]

Or does it require a truly open system?

[A]

I think. I think it would require a complete. A completely new way of. Of everything.

[B]

That's kind of what I mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is. You know, the. The person who maybe in their mind is going to be able to cure cancer might be working in a maquiladora, you know, on the Mexican border. The person who, you know, might be able to save the planet from global warming might be in jail for an illegal abortion in Alabama. You know, there's a, like, one grotesque. Global poverty is a big reason why people can't become who they were meant to be. And poverty is not something that Happens. Poverty is something that's created, but I think that that's like, as a moral compass to want people to be. I feel very fortunate. I think I was able to become the person I was meant to become through luck and circumstance and my mom and whatnot. But I think that that would be a good place to start.

[B]

I think when we were kids, I think Illinois either had the best education system in America or was like top four or something. So we were the benefits of at least that. That.

[A]

Yeah. 100.

[B]

And I know for a fact that. That I wouldn't have become who I became without that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The. The benefit of that education. I can't imagine what it's like to grow up in a. In an education system that doesn't really give you that. Let me find what you're good at and kind of.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Propel you forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Explain the night watchman thing to me a little bit because I. I was reading about a bit and I. And I. I knew about the shows. I didn't see any sort of.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm a total novice in this, but I like the idea that you have this. I think you call it a folk alter ego.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

So just walk me through that.

[A]

Yeah, sure. When it became obvious to me that Audioslave was not going to be a political entity, like, in order for Audioslave to be the best band that could be was gonna have to be authentic, and it was not going to concern. Overly concern itself on a daily basis with changing the world for the better, expressing things like that. I felt like I needed an outlet. So I see. I founded a nonprofit organization with Serge Tank called Axis of justice. And that was great, but it wasn't. It felt like I'm a musician and so I had become. I was a huge fan of Bruce Springsteen, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Phil Ochs. And I thought, like, I'm just gonna. I Boldly, in my mid-30s, began my singer songwriter career. At open mic nights, I'd be playing arenas with Audioslave. And on nights off, I would go sign up at open mic nights and sit and wait to play my two songs with a whirring espresso machine in the background and felt the greatest connection to audiences that I have to this day in that guise. And really feeling sort of heard and connected. And in addition to that, having the flexibility of the guerrilla performance, you know, like with a band, you have to have a band meeting. Are we going to play the show or are we not going to. The tour manager has to get A thing together. I could just, you know, get on a South by Southwest flight to play for the anarchists who got arrested at the bicycle shop protest or whatever. And since then I've played hundreds, maybe thousand gigs in that guys made a bunch of records.

[B]

Sorry, but when you say alter ego, are you. Are you in the guise of a Persona?

[A]

Well, it began that way because it actually began at open mic nights. Because if I sign up as Tom Morello, everyone goes, bull's on. He's going to play Bulls on Parade.

[B]

Acoustic.

[A]

Yeah, acoustic. That's not what's going to happen. It's going to be existential Dread in a minor key.

[B]

Last thing I want to talk to you about is your move into directing. You asked me nicely to be part of a Judas Priest documentary that you're doing. And I know your wife. Is she still working the film?

[A]

Not so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For many years she did music for film.

[B]

Yeah. That's kind of where I got to know her a little bit was we had some meetings. And so I'm curious on that because is it an aspiration or is it a why? You know, because I do a lot of side hustle stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you're a musician with success, you know, at the center is always, you know, whether it's, are you going to go on tour, are you going to do this thing? And you did Prophets of Rage, of course, and stuff like that. So is it something that you've always wanted to do and this is going to be something you're going to add to. To your. You understand?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Where's that going?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was sitting with a friend of a few years ago, like, I've always contributed generously to other people's projects. I've got a lot of ideas that I've handed out and they're like, you should maybe do some of these yourself. And I thought I would, you know, why not a third or fourth act? And so start a production company called Command Dante. And the idea was just to make things that I'm very interested in and Judas Priest, who I did a lot of the heavy lifting to get into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, you know, a doc. The real great doc about them is one that the world deserves. And so I thought I'd try my hand at directing that. So Sam Dunn and I are directing.

[B]

What do you want the world to know about Judas Priest?

[A]

First of all, the world does not, under the broader world does not understand what an important ban Judas Priest.

[B]

It shocks me to this Point that people haven't really figured it out.

[A]

They don't understand. I mean, from a. From a. From a musical point of view, a lot of what defined the genre of heavy metal was solidified by that band. From the look to the sound, to the singer, to the two guitar players. That's in the DNA of every metal band afterwards.

[B]

Isn't it shocking? Because if you watch the footage of them live in Japan is to me, one of the greatest live records. And of course, Rob admitted that he had to sing the vocals later because he had a cold at the shows. But if you look at the actual footage that. Of that tour. He's in a kimono.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But by that time, they get to the album cover.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

The Rob we all know and love.

[A]

The Rob we all know and love. Yeah. But I mean, culturally, it's very. It's it. For someone like myself who felt personally on the outskirts of metal, I was often the only black dude at the D O show. You know, and then when Rob came out, it was really. It was really important when Rob came out and then nobody batted an eye. That was the key part.

[B]

It's still one of the most beautiful, humbling moments. Moments of my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because. And we talked about in the doc, when Rob came out, as a fan, I held my breath because I thought, here it comes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And nothing happened.

[A]

Yeah, nothing happened. And I thought, metal's gonna be revealed for being the horrible thing that people suspected it was.

[B]

And. And it still brings tears to my eyes. And here's why. Because I thought, why is there no reaction? Because the world I grew up in would have hated.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's what terrified Rob. And Rob's talked about that. And I thought I had to do the math in my head, like, why are they not. And I thought they love him. They love him more than their bias.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now that is powerful.

[A]

Yeah. And it's hopeful.

[B]

Okay, so in your fourth act, if we're on the fourth act, what to you is. Is it is because we're all in that stage where, you know, I'm sure you get the call every six months, you guys going to put the band. You know, I'm saying what for you is the ideal state.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I'll. I'll offer a little bit of my

[A]

own thing in that. Yeah.

[B]

When I. When I made peace with James after 16 years, you know, I had to do a different set of math myself. And I'm happy at least in this moment that we have figured out, okay, this is a constant going forward. That we no longer need to debate the status of this entity. We're grateful. And as long as there's a road, let's try to all be on it, and let's not try to repeat the mistake. And I'm not trying to put that on you. What I'm saying is that that act that happened in 2017 or so was born of me putting an ad in the Chicago papers around 2004 or 5 where I said, I want my band back. And I was mocked widely because I felt like I didn't know how to operate without the band at the center of my musical universe. Even just call it center. Like, there's something about the pumpkins in the center makes everything else kind of balance out. So I'm empathetic. And I don't know if you'd recall this conversation, but we ran into each other somewhere years ago. It would have been about 10 years ago. And me being the jerky that I am, I was chiding some, saying, why aren't you guys making new music? And you kind of gave me that look like, oh, it ain't that easy. So, again, not talking gossip, I'm saying is back again to the magic wand. If you have your druthers. What's the right orientation for you going forward? And I'm not even asking. A Rage against the Machine.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, no, I hear you. I hear you. I mean, for me, I'm very clear on it now. The main orientation is to be a great dad. You know, that's the main orientation. And I love that. And that's. I. I will drive thousands of miles to little league games and that. It's my greatest joy. And then this last summer, it was the biggest solo tour that I ever did. The idea of synthesizing 22 albums and a lifetime of work and ideas in a very, very meaningful way like this. I mean, in the next couple days, I'm playing two shows to honor Brother Wayne Kramer, the MC5, God bless him, and for his charity.

[B]

And you were part of that. That.

[A]

I.

[B]

It's hard. I. I didn't understand the full context. But it is an MC5 album.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. It's an. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but. But just to. Like that the idea of playing my music, you know, historically, and.

[B]

But they're the only other band that really does fall in the rage.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

And they were obviously first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To say, hey, we're going to really put it out there.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. All the way up.

[B]

All the way.

[A]

All the way up.

[B]

And that's beautiful.

[A]

Come and come, come.

[B]

Maybe it's. Maybe it isn't every 50 years thing.

[A]

Yeah, no, because.

[B]

Because it. To. To be that fervent in your belief and then somehow break through is like.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

It's a miracle.

[A]

Yeah, you have to be that fervent. You have to be that good. I mean, you have to have Kick out the jams. You could be that fervent.

[B]

If you don't.

[A]

If you don't have. If you don't have that, then it doesn't really matter.

[B]

But.

[A]

Yeah, that. That, the. That I love the sort of embracing of. It's. It's Night Watch. I play lockup songs, Night Watchman songs, Province of Rage songs, you know, we honor Chris.

[B]

Well, you have your kid up there too, playing.

[A]

And my son, Roman Morello is.

[B]

Now that is cool.

[A]

He is no joke, you know, because

[B]

when we did some shows together in Europe recently, when the, when the person or band that's opening for us is going, that's when I'm warming up, I go this horrifically torturous, 45 minute warm.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And somebody came back and I said, how is it? And they go, man, his kid's really good. So I think that's where we are.

[A]

I appreciate it.

[B]

God bless you and God bless him.