← The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Zakk Wylde | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
01:28:39
Loading summary
Transcript591 lines
- [00:00]
A
Zach, just. Just play with your heart. Change your pants. Something smells in here.
- [00:09]
B
My high school band was named Hexen.
- [00:11]
A
Oh, nice.
- [00:12]
B
So when you were in Stonehenge and Zyrus, I was in Hexen.
- [00:15]
A
Nice. We could have toured together back then. Oh, my God. And that's why we're meeting today. Yes. Because we're gonna put those bands back together. There you go. And do the tour that never was.
- [00:31]
B
Well, thank you for being here. This is my. My big talk show.
- [00:33]
A
Thanks for having me, Father Bill.
- [00:35]
B
I'm so excited to talk guitar with you. I'm a total nerd.
- [00:37]
A
I had to come down to the ultimate podcast over here.
- [00:41]
B
I'm gonna. For full disclaimer. You did bring this Ultimate Warrior today, which is pretty cool.
- [00:46]
A
Just so you could have the. So we'd have the ultimate podcast today.
- [00:49]
B
You know, legal disclaimer. If I get sued over this, I'm sending them to you. I'm sending them to celebrate. BLS llc, Right?
- [00:57]
A
No. Well, it'll be the old.
- [00:58]
B
What's your LLC called. It's got to be good.
- [01:01]
A
The Ultimate Lawsuit. Okay.
- [01:03]
B
You got to have a good LLC name somewhere.
- [01:06]
A
We'll figure something out.
- [01:09]
B
So doing a little research on you, you're actually older than me, but not by much. Only a couple months.
- [01:16]
A
As my dad would always say to me, you're gaining. Okay, well, whatever. I turned another year.
- [01:21]
B
He goes, you're born the same year. 67.
- [01:24]
A
67.
- [01:25]
B
And so it explains something to me, because I've been a fan of you ever since you showed up with Ozzy. And I was like, who's this guy? Right. But I always felt like I understood your playing, and I think we grew up in the same stew of influences. Even though I took it one way, I totally get the way you play guitar, and I love the way you play guitar.
- [01:42]
A
I appreciate it, man. Right back at you, brother.
- [01:44]
B
Thank you. But what's so cool is I feel like I really get it. I don't know if that makes sense. You know, I'm not saying, like, I just like the way you play. Like, I feel like I understand why you choose certain notes, why you play certain things.
- [01:53]
A
Well, no, even when, you know, we were talking about, like, when you did the. You know, the interview. Remember what you did with Eddie Van Halen?
- [02:02]
B
Yeah.
- [02:02]
A
You know what I mean? And you were talking about, like, how you loved. You know, when we were talking about fair warning and stuff like that. Because it was the darkest record. Yeah, like that. Which it was. You know what I mean? But I mean, they're all great. But, I mean, you know, Fair Warning had its own identity as well. It's a lot darker than Left Turn. Yeah, totally. But no, yeah, because we all grew up on, like you said, Eddie and Randy, Matthias Jabs and all the. All, you know, that was the new breed coming in. George lynch, you know, who are some
- [02:33]
B
of those 70s guys that, like, you
- [02:35]
A
and I would know, obviously. I mean, for me, it was. It's whoever your favorite. You know, if you're a Black Sabbath fan, then it's Tony Iommi's your guy. So for me, it was Tony Iommi, obviously, and then being Jimmy Page, you know.
- [02:49]
B
But do you like guys like Ronnie Montrose and craft stores?
- [02:54]
A
I found out. Obviously, you find out about a lot of the guys later on. My guitar teacher at the time when I first started was this guy named Leroy Wright. And Leroy was. He was like 10 years older than me, but he was a huge Hendrix guy. And he was the one that turned me on to Frank Marino and Robin Trower and you know, and everything like that, which I would have, you know, at the time. I didn't know, you know, you know, Jimi Hendrix or whatever. But then hearing Frank Marino and Robin Trower and everything like that. But then. But, you know, obviously the more you're learning guitar, you learn it from your favorite guys, which would be. Sabbath was my favorite band. So, you know, trying to learn every Black Sabbath song, but. But then, you know, the more you learn and then you find it about. This guy's great. This guy's awesome. You know, Ronnie Montrose or any of the guys. Alvin Lee, you know what I mean? Albert Lee. Then your whole, you know, it. Horizon opens up, you know, like, even with Saint Rose, with Randy.
- [03:48]
B
Yeah.
- [03:49]
A
You know, I remember, you know, then finding out that Mick Ronson was this guy. You know, Randy was like, mick Ronson's my guy. And then I remember seeing, you know, us being younger, we're going, oh, you got a Randy Rhodes haircut. And it's like, no, that's. That's a MC Ronson haircut, you know. No, I'm just saying. So, yeah, it all goes, you know. So for a kid when I'm coming in, it's like, oh, Zach Wilder. It's just like, yeah, well, Randy's his guy, so it's like, yeah, but Randy's guy is Mick Ronson, you know, So
- [04:16]
B
I know you're a rocker, but your phone's on.
- [04:18]
A
Oh, it's dinging.
- [04:20]
B
Oh, it's dinging.
- [04:21]
A
Oh, is it. Oh, is it making Noise.
- [04:22]
B
This is. This is an official podcast. You can't have any ding.
- [04:26]
A
Okay. We got to keep it pro.
- [04:28]
B
Got to keep it pro.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, but no, but I just always thought it was like. It's so awesome how you just see the correlation between everything and you do research on the history. When we're talking about either wrestlers or bands and this and that, your favorite bands, and you go, oh, you really like them. Well, you got to hear so and so because they got a lot of stuff from them, you know, and it's like. Then you listen and you're like, oh, wow, I never knew about that. You know what I mean? So. Which is always awesome.
- [04:55]
B
I thought what I really loved about your playing. And I guess I would have heard you sort of 88, 89.
- [05:00]
A
Yeah.
- [05:00]
B
When you first came in and all that stuff.
- [05:02]
A
Yeah.
- [05:03]
B
It was like, wow, this guy has a kind of a 70s foundation, but he's playing different. Does it make sense to you, the way I'm putting it?
- [05:11]
A
Well, without a doubt. As far as like Frank Marino being like my. One of my favorite guys and obviously Randy and.
- [05:17]
B
But usually when guys would play with those influences, they would just kind of sound like those guys. Somehow you sounded like you. You know, I could feel where you were coming from, but it felt like, wow, this guy's got a totally different take on it.
- [05:31]
A
Well, you. But you know what was so funny coming when I first started playing with Oz, right? You know, here I am, 19, 20 years old, and it's just like, well, how am I going to be Zach? You know, like, how am I supposed to be me? Like, what. What's going to be my sound or whatever. And then I'm just thinking to myself, I go, I will if you don't want to sound like yingvey, you know, because Yngwie was. Forget about it.
- [05:53]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [05:54]
A
I mean, as far as.
- [05:54]
B
Did you see Yngwie like that, though, when you first came to America, did you see any of those tours?
- [05:58]
A
Put it this way, I remember when I first heard Steeler, there was lights out because I was like, so unhappy.
- [06:02]
B
Me too. I had that album. I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing?
- [06:05]
A
It was too annoy level. I mean, I'm just saying, like, you know. Yeah, how like Jimi Hendrix, obviously it was the, you know, the massive meteor. And then you had, you know, then obviously King Edward was the second coming, you know, I mean, I'm just saying as far as like game changing meteor that just hit the planet. And then I think the last one was, was Yngwie I mean, as much as, you know, we love. You know, with Saint Rhodes, you know, you had Eddie and Randy and everything like that, you know, so it was like. But like, forget about when Ing day because when, when Ed came out, that just changed everything where everyone tapping the harmonics. That. And not only that, that ushered in the whole. The new new breed and a new era. So.
- [06:54]
B
I mean, the new gunslinger.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah. With. With Randy, with the. With the pointy guitars, the stripes on the guitars, the polka dots on the guitars, the paint jobs on the guitars. None of the, none of the, you know, between Beck, Clapton, Page, the Big Three and then Tony Iommi and then Richie Blackmore and all the, all the guys that they got it from, none of the guys had like painted guitars or anything like that. You either played a Strat or Les Paul. You know, you had a cool looking guitar or whatever. But they were the. Eddie and the guys were the ones, the 80s, the late 70s 80s guys were the ones that brought in the different shaped guitars. And not everyone was playing a Les Paul. Sure. Or a Strat. So it was like, what is a Jackson? I mean, you know, I remember years, people were like, what is. I have never even heard of that. Or, you know, or a Strat. Eddie would just have like parts of guitars together. Like nobody even knew what he was playing.
- [07:43]
B
I even thought of doing that.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah. Because it wasn't a Fender. It was like, is that a. It looks like a strap body. But what. You know, and then Eddie just tweaking all his guitars and everything. That was the new breed that was coming in. But no, I mean, for me, I was just like, well, if you don't want to sound like Yngwie, just get rid of harmonic minor and diminished. And it was like, all right, if you don't want to sound like Eddie, then get rid of the tapping and the harmonics and get rid of the whammy bar. And then it was just like, just crossing off all the lists. Like, if you don't want to be compared to certain. Certain people.
- [08:17]
B
I didn't know that about you, but that's pretty cool. It makes a certain sense.
- [08:19]
A
And then I was just like, well, what's left?
- [08:21]
B
A lot of blues?
- [08:23]
A
Yeah. I mean, everything was kind of. There's not much room left on the grocery list. And I was just like, well, I guess just pentatonic scales instead of three notes of scale, like Aldemyola and Yin Bay and everything. And what was massively popular at that time. So it was just like, all right. Well, then I'll just do pentatonic scales, but I'll pick them, you know, as opposed to just doing hammerhounds and pull offs.
- [08:46]
B
Sure, yeah.
- [08:47]
A
So it was like, all right. So every time when I was going to write a solo, whether it's Miracle man or Crazy Train, I mean, Crazy Babies. And then everything that was on record, Demon Alcohol, everything on the list, no Rest for the Wicked. And then no More Tears was next. But I mean, no more I see your time. The Rest for the Wicked. That first album, it was just like, I'll just base everything off a pentatonix. Like, you only have, like, those cooking shows when they go, you only have X amount of cooking. You know, I give you X. I
- [09:17]
B
didn't know that about you, but it makes total sense.
- [09:19]
A
Yeah. Because I was just like, well, what am I going to do? If you do Harmonic Minor or this and that, it doesn't matter how fast you play it. Yeah, it's going to go, oh, wow, he sounds like a fast Yngwie, you know, or. Or if you do Taps, even faster than that Event air. It's just like.
- [09:32]
B
But did you go seeing they, like around 84.
- [09:35]
A
I never saw Yngwie back then, you know, at that time, I went when
- [09:38]
B
I was like, 17.
- [09:40]
A
Where'd you see him?
- [09:41]
B
At Aragon Ballroom.
- [09:42]
A
Oh, wow.
- [09:43]
B
Tallis was opening with Billy Sheen on bass, and it was the Rising Force tour with Jeff Scott Soto singing. Been 84, 85.
- [09:52]
A
Yeah.
- [09:53]
B
And so, you know, I'm. I'm a young shredder and it just blows my mind, you know what I mean? You know, got drunk off his ass and he's laughing and he's, you know, he's like.
- [10:03]
A
No. Effortlessly effortless. I mean, because Yngbe always said it's just like. It's not just speed and it's just not. It's not jive. I mean, it's. It's. He's speaking. No, I mean, it's musical.
- [10:18]
B
Yeah.
- [10:18]
A
I mean, everything he's playing and his feel with Vibrato, he's. His timing.
- [10:23]
B
He's so ridiculous. It's like. It makes me laugh because he's just so. It's like. No, I saw. I saw you play on that. The guitar tour you guys would do.
- [10:31]
A
Oh, the Generation Axe thing. Yeah.
- [10:34]
B
I was at one of those shows, Dallas or something. And there's that. There was that bit where Steve, I and. And Yngwie were. They were.
- [10:41]
A
Oh, they were doing Black Star together, back and forth.
- [10:44]
B
And Yngwie, I found it online. There's a clip of it. Yngwie did some run, like, low to high. It was so insane that Steve Vai
- [10:53]
A
literally went, what Steve would do, like, every day.
- [10:56]
B
Okay. It worked for me because I was like, no, but I had to go find the lick because I. I thought maybe it was in my mind that it was that good and it was that good. It was like. It was like. Like a swimmer nailing a dive or something.
- [11:10]
A
Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, Yngwe's. That's.
- [11:12]
B
Yeah.
- [11:12]
A
Insanely good. But, you know, I mean, but talking about, like, even with the Generation Axe thing.
- [11:17]
B
Yeah.
- [11:17]
A
You know, because the older you get, you don't realize. You know, I remember seeing, like. Remember with the Les Paul tribute. I remember Eddie Van Halen was playing on there. David Gilmore was on there and all this stuff. And it was just. I mean, then you. You start to realize, like, all, like, what's David Gilmore going to do after Eddie gets done shredding up there with the. Sitting in with the band? It's like, all David Gilmore has to do is be David Gilmore.
- [11:43]
B
That's it.
- [11:43]
A
No, because Dave's gonna go up. Well, I'm not gonna try and sit up there and try and play as fast as Eddie. That's not my thing. Yeah, no, because, I mean, I'm just saying, like, we all love pizza. Just be whatever slice of pizza you are, whether you're a margarita or if you're just a plain slice or you're a mushroom slice or your garlic slice or your pepperoni or meat lover slice. I'm just saying, you just go with your strengths. So I'm just saying, like, when I'm up there with the Generation Ax thing, you know, you have Yngwie, you have Stevie, you have Nuno, you have Tosin. When we walk in this, you know, I could be at sound, I just walk in the building two seconds in. Whenever the guys pick up a guitar like Nuno, I could tell it's him immediately. You know, as soon as I hear his vibrato, I hear Steve's vibrato and then do one lick and just the tone of their guitars, you know, it's Steve. Yngwie picks up the guitar and he just. He doesn't have to do Harmonic Minority. He could play a pentatonic lick, a blues lick, like he's playing from Purple Haze or something. And, you know, it's immediately Yngwie. And then Tosin just whips out just, like three notes, and you just go. I mean, at the End of the day, that's what it's all about.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah.
- [12:54]
A
That you have your own voice. You know what I mean? Like Bob Dylan. It doesn't matter whether, you know, Bob can sing as good as Michael Bolton. It doesn't. He has his own sound, you know, just like with Smashing Pumpkins and your vocals. Yeah. You know, I'm just saying, when the alternative thing was huge between you, Kurt Lane, Chris Cornell, like, soon as I hear, like, two notes of it, you know who's singing.
- [13:21]
B
Yeah. It makes me proud when my kids, you know, I'm like little kids, and my song comes out of the car and they go, that's Daddy.
- [13:27]
A
Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying.
- [13:29]
B
They know my voice. Yeah. It's cool.
- [13:31]
A
Les Paul said that about Pat Martino one day, you know, and Pat's this legendary jazz player, and then. But when Pat was young, when he was. He was playing in some club, and Les saw him playing and he was just like, wow, that's amazing. You know, just technically what Pat could do and everything, and he just goes, but can your mom tell it's you on the radio?
- [13:49]
B
Wow.
- [13:50]
A
Like, Les said that then all those years ago. But it really is. It really is the truth. It doesn't matter whether you have the. If you're the most technically amazing player or. It doesn't matter, you know, vocally or guitar playing wise or drumming wise.
- [14:11]
B
Yeah.
- [14:12]
A
I mean, because when you hear Keith Moon and I hear John Bonham, it's two distinctly amazing guys, you know, that have their own voice or Neil Peart. Those three guys are completely different slices of pizza, mind you. All amazing slices of pizza. But I mean, it just depends on what movie you're doing.
- [14:33]
B
Are you a New York pizza guy?
- [14:34]
A
No. I do love pizza. Who doesn't?
- [14:36]
B
You know, I'm a vegan now, so I can't eat Chicago pizza anymore.
- [14:40]
A
Oh, well, it depends on whether you. We just stick a bunch of broccoli in there for you or some salad. You know what I mean? Whatever. So you'll be fine. We'll just take the meat out of it, you know.
- [14:49]
B
All right, I gotta take you back to. I saw these names, and I gotta ask Stonehenge, and was it Zeris or Zyrus?
- [14:58]
A
Oh, Stone. Well, Stonehenge was before Cyrus. Right. But literally the name of the band was Stonehenge.
- [15:06]
B
My high school band was named Hexen.
- [15:08]
A
Oh, nice.
- [15:09]
B
So when you were in Stonehenge and Zyrus, I was in Hexen.
- [15:12]
A
Nice. We could have told it together back Then, oh, my God. And that's why we're meeting today, because we're going to put those bands back together.
- [15:20]
B
There you go.
- [15:22]
A
Or that never was. But I remember Stonehenge. We ended up. We had our manager at the time, our buddy, Mike Kalowitz. I still talk to Mike all the time. We talk out of chat all the time. But Mikey was our manager, and I remember him with my mom, they made up a contract, you know, for like.
- [15:43]
B
Like an appearance contract.
- [15:44]
A
Yes. Like we're going to be planning to catch him kitchen, you know, in the kitchen, you know, I mean, at our buddy's house. And it's just. I remember the. The contract was for, like, you know, to. To provide money. The $40 was going to provide money for the. For the PA and to pay the band.
- [16:03]
B
Right.
- [16:03]
A
But I remember. And that's all that was on the contract that, you know, Kevin was going to pay, you know, cover the $40.
- [16:09]
B
Sure.
- [16:09]
A
And I remember Mike, the contract and a hatchet in the briefcase. So this was pre. This was pre Peter Grant, you know, reading Peter Grant's autobiography yet. But it was just. Yeah. So Mike already knew then. You know what I mean? So he had the contract, maybe a ham sandwich, and then this hatchet in. In the case. So just in case settlement didn't happen, you know, we could settle this thing. But. But it was just. In Jackson, New Jersey. This is how you handle this.
- [16:45]
B
No one messes with stuff. Yeah.
- [16:46]
A
At the Brookwood Bar and Grill, where you could meet Half Yard High School graduating class would be there. But, I mean. But. Yeah, but Mike, I remember, brought the contract in one day, and we were gonna play at Kevin's. And he goes, well, Kevin, you got the 40 bucks to pay the band? And he was like, well, Mike, I was just thinking, maybe I'll toss a hat around. I only got 20 bucks. I'll just toss a hat around at the end of the night and. And pay you guys at the end. He goes, you ain't got the 40 bucks. And he was like, I only got 20 now. And he goes. He just closes the briefcase. He goes, let's go. We're not doing the gig. And we all were walking out to Mike's car. Yeah. And we're going, but we want to play the show, you know? And he's just like, you'll never make any money with that attitude. And next thing you know, Kevin comes running out of the house. He's like, I got the extra 20 bucks. And it was just like, why'd you have to do that man.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:42]
A
No, but like. But that still goes on to this day.
- [17:45]
B
Yes. That's a wrestling shoe, by the way.
- [17:49]
A
Yes, I agree. So nothing has changed since like 1983, when we were doing these shows.
- [17:55]
B
So Stonehenge, was it originals or covers or both?
- [17:58]
A
We did all covers in that one. All covers. I mean, we were doing Bark at the Moon at that time. We may have been opening up with Bark at the Moon at Kevin's Kitchen. And then I remember we did. We played the Bobby Bush Demolition Fest. And I remember that was when.
- [18:12]
B
This is some New Jersey shade.
- [18:13]
A
It was awesome. Her parents were sold the house. It was a bi level house, right? Almost like the Brady Bunch kind of thing. And all I remember is like that movie Weird Science where half the high school showed up on the front lawn. Well, it was because her parents went to the Poconos and she was going to have this big blowout and Stonehenge is going to play Stonehenge. And we had the light show. And I remember Mr. Anteon, Frank, his buddy, his dad was an electrician. We made our light show out of. Out of cans.
- [18:48]
B
Bring back a lot of memories for me right here.
- [18:50]
A
Totally. But we made the. It had the can, you know, we had the light trees, you know, you get at Home Depot. We just built the things in electrical trades. And it was this coffee cans where you could screw the light bulb in. We spray painted the light, you know, whether the red one, a blue one, a yellow one, whatever. And we had it on the trees. And I remember Mr. Anteon looked at. He's like, boys, you're not using this thing, are you? And we were like, why? What's the matter with it? Mr. Anteon, we've been doing tons of shows with this, with our little lighting rig. But you, you know, you turn the thing on so it looks all pro. I remember it was just. He was like, are you kidding me? You're not using this thing. We were like, what's the matter? He's like, anyone touch. All these wires are live. Anyone touches the wires.
- [19:35]
B
Oh my God.
- [19:36]
A
So I'm just thinking between the amount of booze floating around at these high school parties that we're playing at, live wires and everything like that. Just the Animal House factor, the going on with these Stonehenge shows. But I remember when we did Bobby Bush's house, her parents were gone. Torrential downpour that night. And I remember everyone just parked up on the lawn, parked up out front of the house. People from other, from Freehold, Lakewood, all outside communities Coming into Jackson to go to this party, people I've never even seen before. And I remember we opened up with Bark at the Moon. And I remember. All I remember is just. I mean, the house was packed. And I remember going up the stairway, people were just lined up on the stairs, getting hammered, smoking cigarettes, putting them out.
- [20:22]
B
Oh, my God.
- [20:23]
A
In the carpet of the house. And I'm just saying, now that you're a homeowner, there's a whole different outlook in view. We'll put it this way. This house between the sliding closet doors. Demolishing. I could make a comedy movie out of this whole thing, but it was just like something out of Weird Science at the end when the guy's rolling in with the motorcycles, demolishing the house completely. No. No cops even showed up at this thing. But it was when we were loading out the bill, me and you would have been looking at the floor going, yeah, we gotta get out of here now. I mean, holes in the walls. And I remember somebody wrote on the wall, stonehenge was here.
- [21:12]
B
It's like, you killed.
- [21:13]
A
Wow.
- [21:14]
B
You killed.
- [21:15]
A
Yes. Oh, yeah. We killed our. We killed Bobby's chances of ever having another party at the house.
- [21:20]
B
So here's my same story back. High school party. They'd cover the entire first floor of the house in plastic trash bags in anticipation of the beer party to come.
- [21:32]
A
Well, at least they were being cautious rockers.
- [21:35]
B
Yes. I'm standing because there's so many people in the room. I'm standing, pressed against my son. Bass stack, because I need. I want more volume. So I'm playing through a bass amp.
- [21:47]
A
Of course.
- [21:47]
B
We're playing Stranglehold by New Jim.
- [21:52]
A
Of course.
- [21:53]
B
I'm. I'm literally in the opening part of the song. You know, the whole bit. Cops walk in. Cop walks to me and does one of these. I stop. He goes, you guys gotta quit. I go, but look at all these people. And he goes, you want to go jail?
- [22:08]
A
There you go. Well, jail is.
- [22:10]
B
I love Nugent, but not that bad.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah, good for jail.
- [22:14]
B
So we didn't even make it through. We didn't even get to the vocal.
- [22:17]
A
Wow. It didn't even get that far.
- [22:19]
B
That was. That was it. Okay.
- [22:24]
A
And then everyone proceeded to demolish the house.
- [22:27]
B
I got out. I never. I was so disappointed. I got out. I never saw the rest of the party. You and me have a great love and respect for Sabbath, but, like, beyond Sabbath. Can you just pick, like, one band that I might be surprised by that you were really influenced by?
- [22:44]
A
Well, I mean, it Depends. I mean, you know, it's just like.
- [22:47]
B
I know you have a lot of influence.
- [22:48]
A
Elton John, obviously, was the first thing that I was ever. The power of music. I remember seeing Elton John on the Sonny and Cher show.
- [22:58]
B
Yeah.
- [22:59]
A
And he was playing Lucy in the sky with Diamonds. And, I mean, at that time, I didn't even know it was a Beatles song. I'm just going. I just saw him. And so it's like crazy. Whenever I YouTube up, you know, like, Elton John, Sonny and Cher show. It's just like you get, you know, the power of music or movies, you know, that you saw when you were kids.
- [23:16]
B
So it would have been like you're about 74, 5. Yeah. When you're 7, 8 years old, you're watching this legend, but you don't know he's the legend. No, he's doing a Beatles song. You don't know it's a Beatles song.
- [23:26]
A
You know, his dad had Sonny and
- [23:27]
B
Cher on whatever this is is.
- [23:29]
A
But. Yes, but was. What's kind of funny how you're all of us. You know, your introduction to certain songs. You know, like, when people go, why does Hollywood regurgitate? You know, they make remake movies. I go, because for the next generation, they've never seen the Exorcist.
- [23:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
So if they're gonna remake any classic movies, it's because they've never seen it, you know? Cause I mean, like, so I've never even heard, you know, so that was like, my first introduction. And I remember my buddy Scott, his older brothers. I was like, oh, I heard this, you know, this amazing song by this guy Elton John. It's so awesome. They were like, lucy in the sky with Diamonds. They go, lucy in the sky with Diamonds. An Elton John song. That's a Beatles song, you know. And then they just beat me profusely out in the garage of the house. And then after that, we went and saw James Bond, Moonraker. And I was like, man, we just saw James Bond. That was amazing. And I was like, roger Moore is amazing.
- [24:27]
B
Yeah.
- [24:27]
A
And they go, again, Roger Moore. He's not James Bond. Sean Connery. So I got beat up again, profusely, but like you said. So that was my introduction to those songs. Yeah. I mean, or movies or whatever, you know. So it's just like, you know, it just transcends. But it's just like. But, yeah, but I remember it was so funny seeing I was with Oz and mom with Mrs. O. Me and Barb got. My wife got. We got remarried for, like, the 428th time in Vegas. Right. We all went and saw Elton John when he was doing his residency thing. So we were all there and mom got us because she's friends with Elton John, so she's. I never met him before. So I had my book when I was like 8 years old. And I have, like. I still have the Elton John wall poster and everything like that. But I had. I brought this book I've had since I've been 8 years old. You know, I mean, so I got it for Christmas or whatever and we went back and it was amazing because I'm. I'm sitting here getting a picture. I got a picture. Oz is on one side and Elton John's on the other. It's like just Bizarro Land. Like my two biggest musical influences.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah.
- [25:39]
A
Pretty. Pretty mind blowing.
- [25:40]
B
Yeah. Well, I know you're a song guy. Meaning when I listen to your music, I know you love song. You know, not every shredder loves song. You know, some shredders just wait.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, no, but. But it is kind of funny because when a lot of my buddies that are. Anybody that I know that shredders, everyone either loves. Everyone loves great music. I'm just saying, you know, whether it's yacht rock or we're listening to new wave essentials or whatever, it's just like. Yeah, as much as. No, it is crazy. I mean, I'm just saying. But look at Father Steve. Would Steve Vye.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah.
- [26:12]
A
One of Steve's. Basically his favorite artists is Tom. Tom Waits. And you would never get that. Never guessed that from. If you were talking about Steve, you would figure Steve, like, one of his favorite artists would be John McLaughlin or Alan Holdsworth or some insane guitar player.
- [26:28]
B
Right.
- [26:28]
A
And so it's just like Steve's like, oh, no way. He's like, if I was a desert island guy, Tom Waits all day long. Like, that's. What's that. And so trying to put Tom Wades with Steve's insane guitar playing.
- [26:42]
B
Yeah.
- [26:42]
A
You know what I mean?
- [26:43]
B
It's beautiful that. I think you're right because what you're reminding me is that most great musicians love great music.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah.
- [26:52]
B
It's probably got. There's some connection there between their love of music and just because they had sort of find their own personality in it. Like you were saying, like, it's not that you didn't love Yngwie. You're like, I don't want to sound like Yngwie. You know what I mean?
- [27:03]
A
No, totally. I mean, like Yngwie. And even being around Yngwie, he loves. He loves Keith Richards, he loves the Stones. He loves everything. You know what I mean? So it's not that. And I mean, obviously, his love for classical music and Bach and everything like that, he was just like. I mean, he loves that style.
- [27:22]
B
Were you like me? Were you trying to look up who the hell is Paganini? Were you in that face?
- [27:26]
A
Well, obviously, remember, you'd read, like, in
- [27:27]
B
the magazine and be like, paganini, who the fuck's no. Without it?
- [27:30]
A
But that's what I'm saying. That's how you discover all these amazing guys. I mean, like, put it this way. We were talking about the last meteor to hit the hit the earth. I mean, as far as guitar impact, yeah, it was just like Derek Sherinan, who, you know, Derek played with Dream Theater. And Derek's this. I mean, you can Google up Derek playing Spanish Fly on the piano, right? I mean, Derek's a whole. Another level. But it's just like, even Derek was saying when he was at Berkeley, because him and J.D. both went to Berkeley. J.D. who plays in black label, so. But when Ingbe hit, they were opening up wards in Berkeley, you know, classical wards, because of Yngwie's impact.
- [28:09]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [28:10]
A
You know what I mean? Like, guitar studies were all these Bach studies and the Valdi Paganini. And just because of his explosion on the scene and what he. Because he made it, everyone wanted to learn it.
- [28:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, so I want to jump into your recent stuff. I know you put out a song recently, Gallows.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah. While we were getting ready to do. Oh, it's just so weird right now because.
- [28:37]
B
Is that because of the Pantera thing?
- [28:39]
A
Well, no. I mean, what we're doing, obviously the Pantera celebration, which is a blast, and we're all having a great time and honoring Dime and Vinnie every night. And, you know, Phil and Rex, this amazing thing that they created that just touched so many people. So, I mean, we're all having a blast out on that because with the crew and everybody, it's just like one gigantic family. So we're having a great time out on that. But, like, in between that and then we just did the Berserkers Fest and everything like that. So any. Any times in between and the Zach Sabbath thing and all this other stuff, it's just like between cleaning the dog run, doing dishes, laundry, then it's just like, yeah, whatever time. And, yeah, bringing Sabbath page to school or whatever. Whatever time we. We empty time we have in there, it just will go into Black Vatican and track Some new ideas. So. But it's a weird thing because, I mean, the old model of making, you know, you. You make a record and we put it out.
- [29:36]
B
Yeah.
- [29:36]
A
And you promote it.
- [29:37]
B
Gone.
- [29:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's just like. You almost kind of just. You could just put singles out.
- [29:42]
B
Yeah.
- [29:43]
A
Because it's just like when you release a record, it just. They could just. As soon as it goes out, it's all there anyways, you know what I mean?
- [29:51]
B
Yeah.
- [29:52]
A
So it's just a weird. Yeah. Like that. You know, nobody uses rotary phones anymore. You know what I mean? Because everyone has cell phones. It's just like. And there's no pay phones anywhere.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:02]
A
You know what I mean? Because back in the day, you'd have to pull over at a truck stop. I remember to call home. You know what I mean? So. And it's just like, we'd be walking around going. We'd go to a 7 11. I go, Bill, do you notice something?
- [30:13]
B
Right?
- [30:13]
A
He goes, yeah, there's no pay for them. So I go, yeah, they're gone.
- [30:16]
B
Yeah, they're gone. I do want to talk about black label, but want to start with Pantera, because obviously been doing this touring. It's hard. I was around that band a lot in the 90s. You probably don't know that, but. So I got to know Dime a bit and got to see him play live 20 times. And I hope you take this as a compliment, because I mean it as a very respectful compliment, I heard. You know, because you were in the biz, you start hearing rumblings that you guys were going to do something.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah.
- [30:49]
B
You know, six, nine months before it happened. And, you know, of course, the first question people ask, well, who's going to play guitar? And the minute I heard it was your name, I was like, oh, that's definitely going to work.
- [31:01]
A
I appreciate it, man.
- [31:02]
B
So I'm glad you take that as a compliment, because you're one of the only guys on the planet I think could both honor Dime and play the music. Does it make sense the way.
- [31:12]
A
Well, I mean, my. My whole thing is, like, whenever anybody asked me, like, when. When it was all this is when Vinnie was still alive, it was just like, you know, there was always one. Hey, Zach, man, if the fellas ever do it or whatever, did a reunion, you know, to celebrate Dime and everything like that, would. Would you be. I go, of course I would. It's just like, you know, I remember Rob Halford. You know, we were doing opening for Judas Priest over in Europe on some of the shows. And or no. Down in. When we were down in South America, when we first started doing it. And Rob was like, zach, this is a real beautiful thing that you guys are doing. And I was like, thanks, Robert. He just goes. I said, it wasn't a matter of if I'll do it, it's when I'll do it. Because I just equate it to, like, with Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton, like, with their relationship. If Mitch and Noel would have said, eric, we want to go celebrate. Jimmy. Yeah. Would you sing and play Jimmy's stuff?
- [32:10]
B
Yeah.
- [32:12]
A
How? Of course Eric Clapton's gonna say yes.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, I get that.
- [32:15]
A
You know, he was there. He. You know, if you laid. You know, I laid Dime. The rest.
- [32:19]
B
Yeah.
- [32:20]
A
As a pallbearer. So, like, what do you think I'm gonna do? He's my buddy.
- [32:24]
B
Yeah. But, you know, we live in this complicated world where people do silly things, say silly stuff. So the reason. The other reason I thought it was going to work is you have so much respect from people. As a musician, it registered in my mind that, like, if anybody was gonna stand there and sort of navigate it, it was you. I literally can't think of anybody else that could be in that spot.
- [32:49]
A
I think about it. I appreciate it. No, but I mean, I just always look at it like a Dime and Vinnie, we're at the soundboard, and we go, we got you guys an early Christmas present. You know what I mean? They were like, all right, man. Because, you know, the guys were always about having a good time, Everyone partying and just barbecuing and whatever. And they go, check this out. We got. We got a little something for you. And like, all of a sudden, the guys are just sitting out at the front of house or whatever, just. And then all of a sudden, the curtain drops and it's just, oh, no, no, no. You know, we. New level. And the kabuki comes down, and it's. It's me, Charlie, Phil and Rex and, like, you know, Zach and Charlie wanted to get you, you know, an early, early birthday present or whatever. And they'd be going, I can't believe these jackasses are playing on, you know, Because, I mean, they'd be like, I'm just saying me, if it was Dime doing it, you know, Dime and Vinnie doing it up there with me and Charlie playing either, you know, Ozzy Anthrax songs or Black Label, whatever, it'd just be like, me and Charlie would be, like, crying, laughing, you know, and just, like, watching Dime doing the soul with no more tears or Whatever. You know, it would sound like Dime playing it, you know, regardless, because he's not gonna escape that. Dime could play Eruption and it's gonna sound. You could listen to it and go, yeah, it sounds like Dime playing Eruption.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah.
- [34:10]
A
Even if it's note for note, is this gonna sound like Dime? Cause of his touch and his feel. So just like when Randy Rhodes is playing Paranoid, it sounds like Randy Rhodes playing Paranoid. You know what I mean?
- [34:21]
B
Yeah.
- [34:21]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
So.
- [34:22]
A
But no, I just always picture them every night. You know what I mean? Just like, I just picture them either, you know, because especially when Reed is over there on the side of the stage and everything like that. It's just like. Yeah, they would. They'd be. Especially those two guys, you know, because they. They just love life so much.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah. One of my favorite memories of Dime is they're playing the Aragon Ballroom. And I'm sure you played there many times, right? You must have.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [34:48]
B
You know, there's this, like. It's the old school thing where there's like the. The balcony, you know, like the old opera singer spot.
- [34:54]
A
Totally.
- [34:54]
B
So I was up there and, you know, like, typical them, they had me drinking, whatever.
- [35:00]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [35:00]
B
Or the hell they drank before shows.
- [35:02]
A
And I'm not a drinker with a spare liver and pancreas on ice.
- [35:06]
B
So I'm up there, I'm feeling a little. A little wobbly, and I don't know what the hell they were playing. And dimensional spots me. And, like, he would. He locks eyes with me, and for a minute he's just looking at me, and he's playing the craziest.
- [35:24]
A
Just shredding, never.
- [35:25]
B
Doesn't look at the guitar at all. And he's looking at me like that thing he would do, like. Yeah. And I'm like. Like, for a minute he's just playing. I'm like, why you playing for me, mother? But that's the way he was, Right?
- [35:37]
A
Totally.
- [35:37]
B
It's like, I know you're watching me.
- [35:40]
A
No, totally, man. I use the best. Without a doubt.
- [35:44]
B
So. It's beautiful what you're doing. I'm glad to see it because, you know, you'd heard about it through the years and even the. The weirdness with the fans and Phil, I'm glad that's all kind of seems to be done.
- [35:55]
A
Yeah, well, I just think. I mean, like, anyone that comes and sees it, it's just. I mean, it's. It is what it is. It's a beautiful tribute to the guys, and it really is pretty amazing, like, every night, you know, Phil just always asks. He's like, well, how many people, you know, saw Pantera back in the day? And then you'll have the. Obviously, the Pantera faithful that were like, you know, Zach, I seen him. I seen Diamond Vinny and the fellas when. And, you know, Phil and Rex, when there was, like, eight people in the club or whatever, you know, and then until when the guys exploded and whatever. So it was just. You have the Pantera faithful. And he's like, all right, how many. How many people? This is their first time ever hearing these songs live. I'd have to say it's either 75%. I mean, like, of the younger kids.
- [36:42]
B
Yeah. Well, that's. But that's.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah. Like, my Uncle Zach took me. You know, my Uncle Zach always told me about the legend of Pantera and, you know, how great they were. And it was just like this force to be reckoned with. And it's just like, so you have, you know, so now I'm bringing my nephews who are old enough to see it now, you know, because they were five years old when Pantera, when it ended.
- [37:04]
B
Great, great songs, too. Great.
- [37:05]
A
Well, that's what I always say. What separates. Well, what separated Sabbath from everything. It's not because it's heavy.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah.
- [37:13]
A
It's because it's great songs. I mean, you know, so it's just like with Pantera, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I always. You know, I always say Pantera is in their genre of extreme metal. They are the gold standard of where everything. Just like how Sabbath and Zeppelin, the Stones, the Beatles are the. The gold standard.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah.
- [37:35]
A
For what? You know, so if it's Southern rock bands, it's. The Allman Brothers and Skynyrd are the gold standard of. Of that style of music. So, I mean, with. With extreme, they're all measured by what Pantera set.
- [37:51]
B
I think I told this story somewhere else, but I'll tell you to you, because you probably don't know, it's. But I was. I was backstage with them, and it was when Metallic was kind of having trouble somewhere in the 90s, you know, like, fans didn't like the record. There's.
- [38:03]
A
I don't remember navigating through the crazy.
- [38:05]
B
Whatever. It was just those weird years where they were kind of figuring out what became Metallica 2.0 or whatever. And, you know, the guys in Pantera, being fans, were kind of bitching about Metallica, you know, I mean, they were just being how they were. You know, they're just drunk rednecks, whatever. You know, I mean, whatever. It's just the way they were. And I knew him well enough to.
- [38:27]
A
Fellas having a good time?
- [38:29]
B
Sure. So they're going on about Metallica, and I just, you know, again, I knew them enough to. I'd heard enough. And I said, shut the up. And they all looked at me like, what you just say to us? And I said, you're the best metal band in the world right now. You're the best metal band in the world. They'll be fine. Worry about Pantera.
- [38:54]
A
And they were all like.
- [38:54]
B
They didn't want. They wanted to argue with me and that, but they were like, he just gave us a compliment. So that's my fun day.
- [39:03]
A
I mean, but that happens with everybody. Whether it be Zeppelin is so huge.
- [39:08]
B
It comes from a place of love. Because if you love the band, you're like, yeah.
- [39:11]
A
You wouldn't be concerned with them.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [39:13]
A
Totally, man.
- [39:14]
B
One quick, funny thing. First time I ever heard of Pantera, we were playing seventh Street Entry. If you ever played there, That's. It's the side club in Minneapolis. There's the first.
- [39:23]
A
Oh, yeah. Where all the French.
- [39:25]
B
Yes. But it's the side club. It holds like 300 people.
- [39:29]
A
Gotcha.
- [39:29]
B
So when we were in indie band in the 80s, you know, we'd go play there.
- [39:32]
A
Gotcha.
- [39:32]
B
And we were in there one night and this guy goes, were here last night? You gotta hear. This is the sound guy. I don't even know the guy. He goes, this band that was here last night, Pantera. What's Pantera? And he holds up the flyer and it's. When they were doing. They were like the metal, like the big hair. Pantera, totally.
- [39:54]
A
Yeah.
- [39:54]
B
And he was like, I never heard a band like this in my life.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah.
- [39:58]
B
The intensity, you know, you just hear this name and it just lays there for years, like Pantera. And then suddenly they burst on the
- [40:04]
A
scene whenever, like the warrior, you hear the dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Him running out to the ring. There you go, shaking the ropes.
- [40:12]
B
See, you're smart. It all goes back to wrestling.
- [40:14]
A
So it was that type of impact.
- [40:17]
B
I want to ask you a little bit, because I ran into Vinnie a lot in those years after diamond passed away. And I know you saw him, too. So I feel it's worth talking about Vinnie because that it was really hard to see how brokenhearted he was. It's not that he wasn't trying to move on with his life. Know, Vinnie was.
- [40:39]
A
Vinnie, yeah.
- [40:39]
B
He was always going to be a party wherever Vinnie was.
- [40:41]
A
Yeah. Well, you never. You never move on from that. You just, you know, so how.
- [40:46]
B
How did you. As a friend or a compatriot, you
- [40:49]
A
have to carry on. But, you know, you never.
- [40:50]
B
But how did you. How did you perceive that at the time?
- [40:54]
A
Like, you know, with Vin, obviously, you know, as. As friends, you all support each other, so. But it was just. I remember when Vin, you know, but. Yeah, it's a weird thing, you know that. But that's when you see who your real friends are and everything, you know? Cause, I mean, between Bride Dog and all the guys in his community, and then, you know, when he started the thing with the Hell yeah Guys, all the fellas in that camp and the crew and everything like that, so would always be, you know, around Vin and everything like that. So, I mean, but as far as. I always tell everybody, if you ever want to honor Diamond Vinnie, it's. It was their love of life, you know, because, Vinnie, when we were doing the Hell yeah. Tour was. We were doing a Megadeth tour. So it was. It was Megadeth when Father Dave was, you know, when Disturbed was on hiatus. And he. He was doing his solo thing at the time device. And then it was Hell yeah. And then Black Label, we were all rolling together. I remember Vinnie got tickets for me and Phil, who rolls with Black Label. He got us tickets because we're big New York Giant guys, and Vinnie being a huge Dallas Cowboy guy, so he got tickets. He's like, all right, next season, we're all going to see the Cowboys and the Giants. So Vinnie got tickets for that. Obviously, the massive blowout at Vinny's house. And then we all go to the game. But it was just. But yeah, Vinny. And then when we. Even when we were doing that tour, it was just the way Pantera rolled. It just carried on with that. I mean, it's like every day, massive spread after the gig, you know, when there was loadout going on, tent, would it be Van Halen cranking, Led Zeppelin cranking, Sabbath cranking. I mean, everything. It would just. And just a massive spread of food, you know, with ribs and everything like that and stuff. And then we'd have to get you your vegan pie. You know what I mean? We'd have to.
- [42:55]
B
Thank you.
- [42:56]
A
Exactly.
- [42:58]
B
I can almost hear Vinnie and Dime
- [43:01]
A
making fun of meat, but they would have said, we made sure we got you vegan. You know, they would have got you to vegan dish.
- [43:06]
B
Absolutely. I want to jump in the Aussie years because, you know, you were how old when you tried out for Aussie,
- [43:12]
A
I was, what, 19 or right before 20 years old.
- [43:16]
B
It's. It strikes me because not only obviously you got the gig, but you immediately jump into his world and you start contributing. You take him in this different.
- [43:27]
A
It was a weird thing because, I mean, you know, I remember when I was at the audition, it was. It was kind of funny because all
- [43:34]
B
the other guys fly out from, like. They fly you out?
- [43:36]
A
They flew me out. Yeah. From New Jersey, out to la. Right.
- [43:38]
B
So I'd never been on a fly. You coach your first class.
- [43:42]
A
I was in luggage, you know.
- [43:44]
B
Exactly.
- [43:44]
A
Because they didn't know whether they ran out or not.
- [43:47]
B
Sharon. Karen does watch her pennies.
- [43:49]
A
No, mom doesn't skimp, though. You know, she'll take. She takes care of everybody. But. But the whole thing is, I came out and I remember. But, you know, some of the guys that were auditioning, it was so weird because everybody was talking about, you know, I hear the gig pays well. I. You know, it's a good opportunity or whatever, career opportunity where. And all I was thinking is, you know, here I am, I've been wearing a Yankee jer. You know, I'm a fan of the Yankees. Like, to me, that. That jersey is sacred ground. You put Yankee pinstripes on and, you know, my hero's Thurman Munson. I'm a catcher. And now I'm standing in the same spot where German Munson stood.
- [44:34]
B
I get it.
- [44:35]
A
So for me, that's how sacred it is.
- [44:41]
B
I get it to me. So as a Sabbath guy.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. Like, for everybody else.
- [44:45]
B
And Ozzy with Rant. I mean, come on.
- [44:47]
A
But a lot of other people, they were just like, yeah, whatever, you know, take it or leave it. I think it's a good paying gig.
- [44:52]
B
Well, to make you laugh real quick, we just tried out. We. We needed a guitar player, so we said, we'll take anybody. We got 10,000 people submitted to be our new guitar player. And. And, you know, you go through the list and you pick people who got a little bit of a resume and. And you could just see people coming through the door. It's just a gig. And you're like, this is my life, motherfucker. You know what I mean?
- [45:15]
A
That, you know somebody. Yeah. If they grew up loving the Oakland Raiders and now they're an Oakland Raider, you know, so it's just.
- [45:22]
B
You could just tell some people it was just another gig. It was weird to me. It was like, where's your heart in this? Like. Like, if you don't like my music, you probably shouldn't be here. You know what I mean?
- [45:30]
A
It's like, without a doubt.
- [45:31]
B
Like, what is that? So I get it. Like, you as a fan, particularly of Zabba, you must have been like, oh, my gosh.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah, I was just hoping to get an autograph and a picture with. I can't even believe this is happening. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it was just.
- [45:45]
B
So did you audition with the band? Like, who was the band?
- [45:47]
A
Yeah, I played with. Randy Castillo was there. And Phil. Susan and Phil.
- [45:51]
B
I hung out with Randy a couple times. What a lovely guy.
- [45:53]
A
Amazing. Randy was awesome. Phil's great guy, too. I mean, I hung out with. They made me feel real comfortable. And they were like, yeah, Zach, why don't we do Suicide Solution? We'll do Crazy Train, Bark at the Moon or whatever, you know? I don't know. And I was like, yeah, let's do it.
- [46:07]
B
Any singing or just the band instrumental?
- [46:10]
A
Just playing. You know, Oz wasn't there yet. And then they had me come back the next day, and that's when I met Ozzy. And, you know, Oz was like, zach, just. Just play with your heart and change your pants. Something smells in here. It was after I crapped my pants. And then, you know. And then Oz goes. And then, Zach, go make me a ham sandwich. But go light on the mustard. The Coleman's is a very powerful mustard. It'll overpower the sandwich. So ever since then, I've been making ham sandwiches for the boss, I would say. And going light on the Coleman's.
- [46:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:48]
A
But I mean. No, but he just. Oz was super cool, and everything was great. And then, you know, we. But it was so funny because Ozzy had said to me. He goes, have I met you before? And I was like, unless Oz saw me. You know, when? On the Bark of the Moon tour when Motley Crue opened up for him when we saw him at either. At the Garden or the Spectrum. And it was just like. And Oz saw us going nuts under the mezzanine level or whatever. Maybe that's the only place you're gonna see me. But he was just like, no, I seen you somewhere before. Where? And Oz goes. I know where I seen you. He goes, Because Oz never went through any of the tapes. He'd just be like, billy, Zach, sort out the guitar, you know, and when you get down to the. The final guys, I'll come down and say hi. Sure. So. But I guess, you know, my sister took a Polaroid of me on my mom and dad's porch, right? And Ozzy Said he looked at it and he goes, oh, look at this little kid. He must really love Randy Rhodes. Which we do still do. Always will, but. Yeah, but he was just like, that's. I guess that's Ozzy, because now I remember where I saw you, because that was the. That was the only picture of, you know, of all the cassettes or that I actually took a look at because we're sitting on the kitchen counter in our house. Yeah. He goes, oh, look at this kid. Must be. We love Randy Rhodes. He goes, I didn't think anything of it. And then. So that's where I. I remember seeing you.
- [48:20]
B
So you step into this crazy world, Ozzy Land, you know.
- [48:28]
A
Well, put it this way. When I first joined the band, it was just like. I remember going, obviously, when we were in England and we started writing and I. Nobody would want to hang with Oz, because I was the only one that wanted to hang with them and drink. So. And that's why mom eventually started calling us to Gruesome Twosome, right? So, you know, like, I remember Bobby Thompson, God bless his soul. Bobby had known Ozzy since, like, when. Because he was working with Nazareth back in the 70s and everything, and he knew Ozzy from Sabbath. And you know how everybody knows everybody and especially. Yeah, and everybody knows everybody. And then they, you know, they were working with, you know, if they were working with Alice in Chains, now they're out with, you know, Smashing Pumpkins, then they're out with Black Label, then they're out with, you know, Ozzy, and everybody's. All the crew guys are in. Knows everybody, so they're in different camps. So he started working with Oz when Oz started with Randy and playing the clubs and doing everything like that. So then he was. Now he's talking with me and I'm drinking with the Boss. And he goes, zacky, Zacky, you don't want to. You don't want to go drinking with Oz. I go, but I like drinking with Oz. He goes, zachy, you don't want to get into the Web. Stay out of the web, he said. Because basically what Oz would do is just go. You know, mom would always go, like, who are you out drinking? Well, I was out drinking with Billy last night and Zachie and Bobby, you know, so then we'd. He'd throw everybody under the bus. So Bobby's saying, stay out of the web. But I never got out of the Web. I would always stay with Oz and we'd go drinking all the time. But. Yeah, but it was pretty hilarious, though, man. But but mom called up Barbara Ann, my girlfriend at the time. My wife now, right? And he goes, barbara Ann, can I. Can I speak with you? And Barb's like, why, of course, Mrs. Osborne. He goes, tess, does Zach. He have a drinking problem? And she goes, oh, no. Zach drinks milk and stuff. He goes, well, he does now.
- [50:39]
B
Oh, my God.
- [50:43]
A
But anyways, yeah, so whereas my other friends, all my buddies went to college, I went to Ozzy Osbourne University, where I graduated then in cocktails and the art of drinking. You know what I mean?
- [50:55]
B
Were you. Because I. You know, I've been around Ozzy a few times and worked with Tony a bit. It's like, it's hard not to ask them the 8,000 questions that you. I know you know him for so long now, it wouldn't matter. But when you're first starting with somebody, did you resist the temptation or did you want to jump in?
- [51:13]
A
Oh, no, I jumped right in.
- [51:16]
B
I love it.
- [51:16]
A
There was no.
- [51:17]
B
I love it.
- [51:18]
A
No resistance.
- [51:19]
B
Were you doing, like, you know, on Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath, Were you doing that stuff?
- [51:22]
A
Oh, no. As far as.
- [51:23]
B
Yeah.
- [51:23]
A
Oz and Nas would tell me all the stories. So, like, here I am, like, mega super fan of Satin because Sabbath's my favorite band. And then him starting with Randy, and then I love Jake, and then. I mean, there just is always solo stuff. And now I'm in the band. Like me playing with the Yankees, and I get a chance to talk with Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehrig and. And Yogi Berra and hear all these insane stories and Billy Martin. You know what I mean?
- [51:50]
B
It's just like, did you ever get to. In the old Yankee Stadium? Did you ever get to go into that locker room?
- [51:54]
A
No, I've never tore, you know, an OB One before. They tore, but they still had. Thurman's got a locker.
- [51:59]
B
Quick story for you. So I'm buddies with David Wells, the great.
- [52:02]
A
Yeah, Dave's great.
- [52:03]
B
I'm sure you've hung with Dave. So Dave and I were hanging out in New York somewhere when he was pitching for the Yankees, and he left me tickets to a playoff game. So I end up sitting next to Mrs. Shambless, Chris Shamlis, the former Yankee, and very nice. And so I watched the game, and then Dave said after the game, go, go here. You know, go stand there. Family area. So I'm standing there, and here comes Joe Torrey. Wants to talk to me, recognized me, shook my hand. I'm like, oh, my God. Because I saw Joe Torre play when he was with the Mets in like.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [52:34]
B
75 or something, right? It's like, oh, my God, it's Joe Torrey. So I'm standing there, and Mr. Torrey said to me something like, you waiting for somebody? And I said, well, I think somebody's supposed to come get me. He goes, oh, yeah, just stay here. Just. Somebody will come get you. So he leaves, and somebody comes. Billy. Follow me, Dave. So they take me down into the bowels. I don't know. I have no idea where I'm going. Turn left. Turn right. Turn left. Turn right. Open the door. Now I'm in the Yankees clubhouse.
- [53:03]
A
Wow. I'm like, yeah.
- [53:05]
B
By the way, I know enough about sports teams. It's like, be careful if you want to go in a clubhouse. You know what I mean?
- [53:10]
A
Totally.
- [53:11]
B
You gotta. It's. It's their sacred ground. It's their space. Right? Yeah. So now I'm talking to David Cohn. You know, who was the great center fielder during those years?
- [53:22]
A
Bernie Williams.
- [53:23]
B
Bernie. Talking to Bernie. Everyone's being super nice. You know what I mean? Harold Jackson. Harold used to play for Astros. He was a commentator at the time. I know. You know, I'm talking about Harold Reynolds. Harold Reynolds, at that point, he's a reporter for espn. He turns around and goes, what the hell are you doing here? I'm like, I don't know. Somebody brought me in here. Yeah, so. Because David, I think, won the game,
- [53:45]
A
he's just signed me.
- [53:46]
B
I'm sorry, I'm a lefty.
- [53:50]
A
Exactly.
- [53:51]
B
I got a good. I got a good curveball. Anyway, finish the story. So Dave's got to go do post media because he won the game or something. So I'm like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, you know, like, you're a little kid. Like, I don't know where to go. So somebody goes, being respectful.
- [54:06]
A
Just chill.
- [54:07]
B
Absolutely. I know. I. I know. And Dave's like, no, just stay there. You know how he is.
- [54:10]
A
Yeah.
- [54:10]
B
Who cares? Just stay there.
- [54:12]
A
Totally.
- [54:12]
B
Right? So somebody comes over and says, go in there and have some food. They said, like, a little. They had a little catering area. It's, like, smaller than this area we're in right now. So I go in there. There's nobody in there. And it's obviously the players food, but. And the guy who brought me was like a staffer, so he goes, go ahead, have some food. It's all good. So, you know, I get some mustachioli. And this is when I wasn't vegan, you know? And I. I Make my little plate. And I'm. I'm standing there eating, and I feel a tap on my shoulder. And I turn around, it's George Steinbrenner. Wow. And I go. And I'm expecting him to rip me apart. Who the hell are you? What are you doing here? He goes. He goes, you like the Yankees? And I. I mean, I know who he is. Right?
- [54:58]
A
Totally.
- [54:59]
B
And I go. I go, honestly, I'm a Cubs guy. And he goes, but do you like the Yankees? I go, love the Yankees. Is the food good? I'm like, yeah, it's great. He goes, have a great time. Love you. To see you here.
- [55:12]
A
Wow.
- [55:13]
B
That's good with the boss.
- [55:15]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [55:15]
B
So that's.
- [55:17]
A
That's great.
- [55:17]
B
I mean, when you're standing there where Ruth stood and.
- [55:20]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [55:21]
B
Lou Gehrig. Are you kidding?
- [55:23]
A
Without a doubt.
- [55:23]
B
As a baseball fan, I get chills just telling you.
- [55:25]
A
It's like, oh, totally.
- [55:26]
B
It's cool.
- [55:26]
A
That's why it is pretty crazy. That's why I'm saying. It is pretty crazy, you know? I mean, I love new stadiums, but, like, I just hope they never tear Fenway down.
- [55:36]
B
Wrigley, we just played Fenway with Green Day and Wrigley.
- [55:40]
A
Yeah, dude.
- [55:41]
B
I mean, come on.
- [55:42]
A
I mean, amazing. But what I'm saying is, like, the same thing. They tore Yankee Stadium down, and I'm saying, like, if they build a new Fenway park, you know, and it's. And it's bigger and it's better and more modern, you know, stuff and everything like that. It's just like. Yeah, but it's. I mean, something has to be said, you know? Cause in Vegas, too, they just knock everything down. No, but nothing has any historic value.
- [56:07]
B
Nothing sacred in Vegas, for sure.
- [56:08]
A
Yeah. Well, you would think of the stands, like, if we owned it, I would keep it exactly the way it was. Frank was here when Frank and the fellas were there, when the Rat Pack was there, and literally leave the hotel the way it was, and the suites the way they were. The Sammy suite, the Frank suite, the DE and everything like that. And literally the TVs, everything. Maybe change the carpeting. So the carpeting's fresh or whatever, but exact same carpeting. So it's literally a time warp. And then build onto the hotel with the modern stuff. So, you know, people could go, oh, man. You stay in the. In the original or the back.
- [56:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:47]
A
You know what I mean? And it would be. You know, we charge a ton for the. For the evening that you spend in the. Frank. Sweden. You have dinner and the whole nine yards. But, like, make a. Make a big thing out of it. But it's just like, something has to be said about the old ballparks, like Fenway. And you have Wrigley.
- [57:02]
B
So you're doing. You're doing what I called if I Ruled the World.
- [57:04]
A
Yes.
- [57:05]
B
So this is if Zach ruled the world.
- [57:06]
A
Yes.
- [57:07]
B
I, like, I want to live in the world you're ruling.
- [57:09]
A
But it's a true.
- [57:10]
B
Sounds good to me.
- [57:11]
A
You know what I mean? Like, CBGB's. I never got a chance to play that. Did you ever play it? But that's why I'm shocked that, like, by the way, like, the sound didn't purchase it.
- [57:25]
B
Crazy, right?
- [57:26]
A
And just leave it.
- [57:27]
B
Make it a museum or something.
- [57:29]
A
Or keep it still. So it's still running.
- [57:31]
B
Yeah.
- [57:31]
A
I'm just saying. So let's say if. If Johnny Lydon actually bought it and owns it.
- [57:38]
B
Sure.
- [57:38]
A
You know, and it's just like, who owns.
- [57:40]
B
Or some billionaire owns it and says Johnny Lydon owns it. Right.
- [57:43]
A
He's the ambassador of the car.
- [57:45]
B
See? Exactly.
- [57:46]
A
You know what I mean?
- [57:46]
B
I like it. We should do a whole. Next time you come back, we'll do if Zach Ruled the World.
- [57:51]
A
Yeah. Like, what about history here, man? You know what I'm saying? Oh, and actually talking about history on the Hendrix Experience thing.
- [57:56]
B
Right.
- [57:57]
A
Because we're doing that right now, which is always a blast. The owner brought out Jimmy's white Strat.
- [58:03]
B
Oh, wow.
- [58:03]
A
The one that he played the national anthem on at Woodstock. The Woodstock Strat.
- [58:08]
B
Did you get to play it?
- [58:09]
A
Yeah. I just knew it around him for a little bit. But, I mean, I'm just saying. The magic.
- [58:13]
B
No, I'm just jealous right now. Yeah.
- [58:15]
A
I mean, well, it's the same thing with any of Randy's guitars or Eddie's guitars, you know, like, what is the guitar Ed played on Eruption. I mean, that's the historic value on that alone.
- [58:25]
B
Yeah.
- [58:26]
A
The recording of that. You know what I mean? Or Jimmy Page's Double necks and, you know.
- [58:30]
B
Sure.
- [58:30]
A
I mean, like, how you said, like, all these. All these guitars that go for auction, whether it was. What was it? Kurt Cobain's. The acoustic, you know, that used on.
- [58:38]
B
Well, that's a funny story. I don't know if you know that
- [58:40]
A
story of what the. How it was bought at an auction.
- [58:43]
B
No, no. How. How the guy who sold it got it.
- [58:46]
A
How. What happened on that.
- [58:48]
B
He was married to Frances.
- [58:50]
A
Oh.
- [58:50]
B
And in the divorce or something, he claimed. At least this was the story that I saw. Don't know if it's true, but he claimed that she gave it to him.
- [58:59]
A
Oh, boy. Like she should be owning that.
- [59:04]
B
I've known. You know, I've known Frances since she was in the crib, so it was a hard story to see, you know. Yeah, that's a funky one.
- [59:11]
A
I just buy it back.
- [59:12]
B
Back to you. There you go. If we ruled the world maybe we'll rule the world together I'll do the right thing. Vegan alternative side. You deal with the ribs and the. And the Yankees. In doing the research. I mean, I kind of knew these things. But, you know, you're kind of reminded that Bob Daisley played on the first wreck you did with Ozzy. Right. That's not. Yeah, but then. But then in Ozzy world, of course, then Geezer ends up coming back for the tour.
- [59:40]
A
Totally.
- [59:41]
B
So now you're playing in half a Sabbath. He must have totally.
- [59:44]
A
It was insane.
- [59:45]
B
I mean, Geezer's unbelievable. And Bob Daisley's amazing too.
- [59:50]
A
And Bob's amazing as well.
- [59:52]
B
But Geezer, without a doubt. Geezer plays such. Such cool stuff.
- [59:55]
A
Actually, both. Bob. Bob is ridiculous, too. I mean, his bass lines are. You know. Cause Bob's a huge Jamerson. Paul McCartney guy and everything like that. And same thing with Geezer. Well, it all starts with Jamerson.
- [60:06]
B
Geezer plays a swim. Weird way where it's like he makes the songs heavier because if you really listen to Sabbath guitar, he's playing some amazing riff. But it's really Geezer that gives it this kind of the weird.
- [60:15]
A
No, it's just. It's. It's amazing. Their bass playing is just ridiculous. I mean, aside of either whether. Whether they're going to double the riff or then they're going to. They're going to play some counterpoint to a riff.
- [60:26]
B
But I mean, I just saw. I just saw that and I. I just. I had.
- [60:29]
A
It is pretty amazing, you know, because Gezer was another one like Ozzy, where I could pick his brain about Sabbath things. And it was just.
- [60:38]
B
Well, Geezer used to write a lot of the lyrics.
- [60:40]
A
Here's a good one. When we were doing the Osmosis record with Geezer was back together on that one when we did, you know, with Perry Mason and C on the other side and everything like that. So we were recording a bunch of it with Dean Castanova. It was Dean Geezer, me and Oz. Right. With Michael Beinhorn was working on that record with us. So. But Mikey, we recorded the drums in Paris and then we came back to New York and we were recording, I mean, so I had a blast making that record as far as like going out to all the. We were right off right in the center of like Paris. So we'd be going out to whiskey bars every night, just hanging out after we got done track and then the same thing in New York City. So it was just a blast the whole time. But I remember, I remember there was this place in New York City called the Magical Child, a cult bookstore, right? It's not there anymore, but it was like this legendary occult bookstore where everything was in it. You had Christianity, you had everything in there. Catholicism, Crowley, Satanism. Crowley, you had Wicca, you had. Everything is one stop shop and occult bookstore, right? On every religion. So I remember going in there and it was just epic at first. I bought. So I got some books, I got the. The Satanic Bible and some, some books on Crowley, you know, just like I was going to do a book report on like, who's Babe Ruth? What's the big deal with this Babe Ruth guy, right? Like, what's the big deal with Crowley? And why is everyone so in narrow. So I get a couple Crowley books, obviously the Satanic Bible, all this Anton lavey stuff. And then so they had a step, they had a mural of Anton, I mean, Aleister Crowley. And I go, how much for the painting? I mean, the poster. I had to ask him like, Bill, if you would be. I would have been, how much for the painting? The guy goes, $6.66. I go, Awesome. I go, here's seven bucks. Keep the change.
- [62:38]
B
Yeah, right.
- [62:39]
A
So anyways, I get all this stuff. So we're tracking in the studio. I got the picture of Crowley up on the wall, this mural of him. I got a picture with Jimmy Page up on the wall, a picture of Jimi Hendrix, a poster of Jimi Hendrix up on the wall. Because I was at some record stores, so I got all this stuff up on the wall. And I remember Oz comes into one day and he goes, I'm tracking guitars. And he goes, he's just looking at the picture. He's telling me he sees the picture of Jimmy Page and he goes, oh, man. He goes, zach, I remember me and Bonzo and he's telling me these amazing Bonzo stories.
- [63:11]
B
The Sabbath and Zeppelin camp.
- [63:13]
A
Totally. Yeah, well, from Birmingham and everything like that. So. But he said, you know, it was mostly John Bonham that he was buddies with. So, you know the rest of the guy. And Robert, he kind of knew Robert, but, you know, but it was more John where they'd Go out drinking and getting hammered. So he was telling me some hilarious stories with the two of them. And then he goes talking about Jimi Hendrix. He goes, I remember, me and Geezer went and saw him. We were like, this can't be real. You know, when he was playing behind his head with his teeth, they were going, this has got to be the tape. Or is it. This is. You know, because they said it was. It just didn't even look real. And then he goes, he goes, zach, Zach, who's. Who's the bald headed on the wall? And I go, you feel like you would have been there? I go, oz, you don't know who that is. And he just says, who is this? I go, oh, come on, Oz, you don't know who that is? Who is it? I go, you've been singing about him since like 1979. 1980. Oh, come on, who is it? I go, you don't know who that is? He goes, who the is it? I go, oz, that's Alistair Crowley. Crowley. Aleister Crowley. And he goes. And he walks up to the poster and he stares and he goes, oh, is that what he looks like? And then he goes, geezer's sitting there. And geez, he goes, who's the. Who's Anton Lavey? Where have I heard that name? And Geezer goes, because the satanic Bible was sitting in the thing. And he goes, geezer, Because Geezer knows all about it. You know, he's. Well, read on. You know, like if you asked him about baseball players, it's like, what number was, you know, Mickey Mantle, rookie season, he was six. Then he turns it to seven, you know, Cause they wanted. In succession or whatever. He could tell you the history on the players or whatever. What number was Thurman Munson? He was number 15. You know, whatever. So it's just like Geezer's the, you know, the college professor of the occult stuff in with the Sabbath guy. So Geezer could tell you who they are. And he just goes, it was. He goes, geese. Who's that? Anton Levey. Who do I know that name for? He goes, you remember when we had the record release party the. In California, in San Francisco? They had on California street where the. The Church of Satan was. Yeah. He goes, they had a record release party. Like Parade. Exactly. Well, it's a condo now, right. So it's just like. He goes, but we had. They had a record, you know, Warner Brothers had a record release party for the. The first album.
- [65:57]
B
For the first album, yes, for the
- [65:59]
A
very first Sabbath album. And Oz goes, oh, he was the guy with the shaved head. And he goes, yeah, yeah, that was. That's Anton lavey. And Oz goes, oh. Oh, I remember now. No wonder why the album didn't do as well as it could have.
- [66:19]
B
Yeah,
- [66:22]
A
it's awesome. I mean, Oz has zero clue who any of these people are, but he's the prisoner. Zero interest. Like, he has. He has kind of like a brief knowledge of some of who these people are, but it's just like. But you ask him, like, World War II. He loves quizzes. Yeah. If he was on Jeopardy. For World War II. I'll take, you know, 500 for that question of this one. Yeah, without a doubt.
- [66:51]
B
I love Michael Beinhorn as a person, as a producer. I didn't see eye to eye with him, and a lot of people didn't see eye to eye with him. And I'm not asking for dirty.
- [67:00]
A
No, but it's weird because I. I know.
- [67:02]
B
I've heard.
- [67:02]
A
I've heard those stories, but I. Me and Mike got along great. But. I mean.
- [67:07]
B
But didn't just. Sorry to frame it slightly, but. But it seems like. And, you know, you just reading stuff. Except, you know, I'm asking you because you. You were there. But it seems like that's where things start to get a little weird. You know, that was it. Career insecurity for Ozzy and. Because, like, I've read something about even Steve. I was writing songs with them.
- [67:27]
A
No, I. I think it was.
- [67:30]
B
I'm just saying. I'm trying to understand the atmosphere that led to you leaving.
- [67:35]
A
No, when I'm not looking for dirt.
- [67:37]
B
I'm just trying to understand.
- [67:38]
A
I'm saying it's like when. When we did, obviously, when we came back to do osmosis in 95, you know, because obviously, no more tears was 91, 92, whatever. And then we did Live It Live. Live and Loud, the live album. And then we had, like, See on the Other side. And there was some other songs, massive hits, ready to go. But they didn't put it on. You know, they were going to be bonus tracks. But then it came over to when we did Osmosis. That's when Oz was, you know, jamming with Steve, wrote My Little man and some other ones on there. I remember I had to call Steve up. Go. I called Stevie up, and I'm like, steve, what's the tuning on this sitar? And, you know, I had to get the T. He was like, zacky, it's this, that and the other. You know, I was like, all right, Stevie, thanks. Buddy. So.
- [68:25]
B
So it was nothing like they were trying to replace you or.
- [68:27]
A
No, I was just writing with other people because I was out, you know, you're out doing Smashing Pumpkins. You know, it's just like, while Billy's out doing this, I'll work with other people.
- [68:35]
B
I'm just trying to understand some of this. There doesn't seem to be good information. I mean, I see the things where it was like. And it sounds like Ozzy kind of half joking, like he was turning my. My band into Black Label Society or, you know. No, no, it doesn't sound incredible to me, but I know.
- [68:49]
A
Put it this way, I mean, like, everyone always asks my relationship with Ozzy and. And Mom. You know, I lovingly always refer to her as mom because she's been like my mother Since I've been 19, 20 years old, you know, so. But no, and Oz has been like. Like, you know, I always said I had the two coolest guys growing up between my father, who's a World War II vet, D Day, Omaha beach, and Ozzie. So I could always ask them for advice. Oz is like an older brother. You know what I mean? Like, he's like 20 years older than me, so. And the way my kids are, our oldest son to our youngest son, so. But it's just like. So I could always ask those two for advice on anything. And they would always just go, come here, come here. I'd go, yeah. Then he would just poke me in the eye and I'd go, why did you do that? And they'd go, just because. Yeah, yeah. But anyways, that would be the advice. So I really didn't learn anything. But, you know, but that's what it would be. But the whole thing is. No, my relationship with Oz and Sharon, it's just always been to this day, like, when we text him or talk with him or get together, it's just like if they said Oz was like, zach, do me a favor. Can you come over and clean the house and clean the dog run? Me and Sharon had to go do a business meeting. We're having company come over tonight. It's like, oz, no problem. I would just go do it.
- [70:09]
B
Yeah.
- [70:10]
A
You know, like you would for your parents.
- [70:11]
B
More like family.
- [70:12]
A
Yeah, without a doubt. So if he needs me to play on something, I play on it.
- [70:15]
B
But what was the professional circumstance of it all? Because. Wait, so you were writing hits with him, right?
- [70:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. When we did. No more tears and obviously no rest. But like, I think when I started doing, you know, with Black Label as It started going along. Oz was just like, well, Zach's got his own. Zach's his own guy now. So he was just like.
- [70:37]
B
Did he almost kind of want you to graduate into your own place?
- [70:39]
A
Yeah. Just like Zach's out of the nest now. He's just like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Black Legal Society. And I don't take offense to that, because if Randy would have went on to keep doing Quiet Riot, he would have been like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Quiet Riot. Now, even though Randy's coming back and playing a new riff called I Don't
- [70:58]
B
know, is it because he wants complete focus on what he's doing?
- [71:01]
A
Yeah. Or just like, it is what it is. And if Jake went on and he was doing Badlands and continued doing Badlands and then coming back, he would have said, it's like, I'm a lead singer in Badlands now. You know, Even though Jake's coming in with the. With this riff called Bark at the Moon, and it's like, oz, the minute you sing on it, it's New Ozzy.
- [71:18]
B
Yeah.
- [71:19]
A
You know what I mean? And it's just like. Like, I mean, especially with. With me. I mean, in the Black Label Soup, you're always tasting, being that I'm a. I'm a graduate of Lord I, as you are, and Jerry Cantrell and all of us. I mean, Kim Thale and Chris, like, we all are disciples of Lord Iommi and his writing.
- [71:42]
B
Totally.
- [71:42]
A
So the whole thing is. It's just. It's gonna be in there in the soup somewhere. So. But it's just like when. When I'm jamming something, you know, whether it's just like, soon as Ozzy would sing on. If Ozzy sang on Stillborn, which he did in the chorus. But if Oz sang the whole song, that's a new Ozzy song. If Ozzy sang on the Gallows. Yeah, the brand new one. Yeah, that's a new Ozzy song.
- [72:05]
B
Kind of a cool Sabbathy.
- [72:07]
A
Of course there's Sabbath floating around in there all the time, and there always will be, because that's what. That's the flavor that I like.
- [72:12]
B
Yeah.
- [72:13]
A
I'm just saying. But it's just like. But, yeah, so. But I think I completely understand what Oz is saying in that regard. He's just like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Quiet Riot or Bad.
- [72:28]
B
Sit you down and say, black Label, we love you. Do your thing and we're here for you. Or is it like you get a call.
- [72:35]
A
He sat me down just like we're sitting right now. And he said, zach, come here. I said, yeah. He poked me out. He goes, I go. Make me a ham sandwich. And I go and go light on. And I was like. Because I go light on the mustard. Coleman stuff. Always Coleman's.
- [72:50]
B
Always.
- [72:52]
A
No, but. So, yeah, Bill, he would be saying the same thing to you. It's just like, everything sounds like Smashing Pumpkins.
- [72:57]
B
Yeah.
- [72:57]
A
Yeah. You know? And you're like, zach, you'd go, listen to this rip. I go, what do you think? And I go, there's a lot of Sabbath floating around in that meal. You know what I mean? And you'd go, I know. And I was just telling me it sounds like smash and bumpkins. I go, well, you know what I mean? And same thing. If Father Cantrell. Jerry was playing a riff. Here we go. It sounds. I don't want to be the lead singer in Alice in Chains. And I completely get it, man.
- [73:21]
B
You know, when you. When you left, it was 95. 6. Somewhere in there.
- [73:26]
A
Yeah, 96.
- [73:27]
B
So it's a little bit blurry in my mind, because that's when we were touring like crazy. You know how it is. It's like, stuff happens and you hear about it, but it doesn't process the same as if you were sitting at home and watching an MTV News or something. Right?
- [73:40]
A
No, I mean, at that point, when. That's when Joe Holmes. I'm friends with Joe Holmes. Joe's amazing player. And that's when they got Joe to come in, because I was playing with Gnr at the time as well. In between all the. I didn't know that Osmosis. And then coming back. I remember because Slash, they were talking about. I think Gilby had left the band. And so Axel was like, well, who are we gonna get on guitar?
- [74:06]
B
And I didn't even know that part.
- [74:07]
A
I guess Slash just threw around. He's like, well, you know, my name came in the mix or whatever. And Axel goes, you know, I'll just. I'll reach out to Zach. I never spoke to Axl before, so. But I.
- [74:19]
B
How long did that go on for?
- [74:20]
A
Well, I knew. I knew Slash when I first joined Ozzy. You know, that's when guns was blowing up. And then. And I knew Steven and. And then I had. Obviously, I knew Matt from when he was with the Colt, you know, from when Firewoman and all that stuff, so. Cause he was good buddies with Randy Castillo, so, you know. And once again, we all. Everybody kind of Knows each other, and they're all friends, so. But Slash, you know, So I was like, well, why don't we ask Zach if he wants to do it or whatever? And so they. Axel called me up. He was like, zach, you want to get together and jam? I was like, all right. Well, yeah, we'll see what happens, right? So I remember they had a rehearsal joint all set up. And I remember it was me, Matt, Dizzy, was thrown down on the keys. And then you had Slash and Duff, and, you know, I mean, Matt and myself and Axel. And so we were down there jamming and noodling ideas. And then we recorded a couple riffs like the Rose Petal Garden and ended up on the first Black Label album. But it was just like. We had some riffs laying around, but it's just like nothing was kind of materializing with it. And then it was just like. I remember Oz was like, zachy, are you gonna do this thing with the fellas, or are we doing this?
- [75:39]
B
I see. I see him.
- [75:40]
A
And then I was like, oz, let me call up and see if I can get an answer from the guys, because I don't know either, because I'm just sitting, you know, like, I. I can't tell you yes or no because I don't know what's going on with the guys. So it was just like, you know, it was Nothing was. It was just kind of going on, and nothing was happening. So I remember Oz was just, you know, getting ready to release the Osmosis album and getting ready to tour. And Oz was just like, zach, sit down. Yeah, Oz, come here a little closer. And so he poked me in the eyes again. He goes, zach, you make me a ham sandwich? I'm gonna get Joe Holmes to come play for a little while, and then we'll see where it happens from there. But, yeah, that's how it kind of. That's what happened.
- [76:19]
B
Yeah.
- [76:20]
A
And then. So nothing. And then I was kind of like, well, Bill, what am I going to do? There's. Then the Guns n Roses thing wasn't happening. I'm not playing with the Boss anymore. Sure. I'm like, well, I better figure something out.
- [76:32]
B
Yeah.
- [76:32]
A
And, you know, I just released Book of Shadows, which I love doing, because when we were doing Osmosis, it was this place called bruise on 34th and Lexington. It was just like, the pub had been there from 1908. So I would go. After we got done tracking, every day, I'd go into Bruise and just let. They had an amazing jukebox in there. I'd be. I just be drinking till like six in the morning every night at the bar. Just me and you solving the problems of the world. Hanging out. And in Jukebox, we had the Stones in there, Bob Seeger, Neil Young. Just like all this Eagles, all this amazing, you know, just all acoustic, mellow, amazing stuff. So I'd be listening to that all night long.
- [77:15]
B
Yeah.
- [77:15]
A
And I remember just going back into my room, my acoustic and just writing. And then. So I had all that stuff and then I. That's when I did the Book of Shadows thing after Osmosis did a short tour behind that. And then like after we got done with that, I was like, what am I gonna do? I'm not ready to be James Taylor, like a singer songwriter, right? Yet I still want to play heavy stuff. So that pretty much out of, you know, being in the middle of the Atlantic with one oar, I'm like, bill, do you see any land? You're like, no, but we better start
- [77:49]
B
rowing because we're going to die out here.
- [77:52]
A
No, there are no options. You better. I never thought to myself, like, with Ozzie, with Sabbath, well, I guess the dream is over. It was just like, no, I'm not going to go back to having some crummy job that I can't stand. So it was just like, we are going to find land and that's it. Or we're going to die out here.
- [78:11]
B
In how this town can be, though. Did you kind of feel that cold wind that blows sometimes when people think, you know. You know, when you're with Ozzy, that's a big gig.
- [78:18]
A
Well, that's. That's the secure, the security blanket of having your mom and dad's house. And now you're. You don't have that security block.
- [78:27]
B
Did you see people change the way they were acting around you? Do you feel that?
- [78:31]
A
No. I mean, if anything, it's, you know, you have. It's like, wow, this is. This is kind of exciting because we have our own apartment now. You know what I mean? And now, yeah, me and you are gonna start our own little coffee shop and we're gonna start our own business from being, you know, me and you working at McDonald's. And now we're gonna start our own little burger stand.
- [78:50]
B
Yeah. I think what's so cool is because, like I said, it's. It's fuzzy in my mind, but I remember hearing that you left and then at some point that you were starting Black Label. And I think what's so cool is you did it the hard way. You took it to the fans. You built that thing up.
- [79:07]
A
Well, I remember. I remember taking the merch, printing the merch ourself, and then taking all the merch orders, and I remember writing a thank you letter and then putting it in the manila envelopes, and me and you bringing them down to the post office and mailing out these black label Smashing Pumpkin T shirts with thank you letters on them. So it went from, like you said, playing with Ozzy to arenas and stadiums and festivals or whatever to now me and you were playing in clubs with, like, five people in there that don't even.
- [79:40]
B
And you're married. You got kids, so. Yeah, it's part of the dynamic.
- [79:43]
A
Yeah. So what I'm just saying is. And, you know, and I always tell all kids, I go, you know, whether somebody's like, you have advice for my son or daughter, you know, because I go, yeah, just play what you love. And there are no options. There are no other eggs in your basket. Because if, you know you have eggs in your basket, then you're not gonna. If you're out in the middle of the Atlantic and we just got a boat and we got oars, I'm like, bill, we either gonna die out here. Do you see any land anywhere? You're like, zach, I don't see anything.
- [80:14]
B
There's no arenas in the middle of the ocean.
- [80:16]
A
That's what I'm saying. We better start rowing.
- [80:21]
B
So in your mind's eye, because you've, you know, from my perspective, everything you've touched has been successful. I think it's a testament to your talent.
- [80:33]
A
You know, I mean, I'm just saying, I. I think if anything, you know, just like. Well, you know, you gotta. It's just everything in life is based. When I look at my father, him being an orphan and then went straight to World War II. Then I remember his first wife, Marilyn died. I remember my grandmother, my aunt in Asbury Park. That was from my dad's first wife who died of cancer. So he remarried my mother and had me and my sister.
- [81:04]
B
Okay.
- [81:05]
A
But they were our grandmother and aunt, and that was my dad's first wife, Mary, like her mother.
- [81:10]
B
I see. I see.
- [81:11]
A
So he went over there every weekend, changed the light bulbs, cleaned the apartment. He never lost touch with him.
- [81:19]
B
Wow.
- [81:20]
A
And then. Well, no, then after my mother dying and my dad, just. Everything is based for me on strength, toughness and perseverance. You just gotta have that.
- [81:38]
B
I get it.
- [81:39]
A
You have to.
- [81:40]
B
Yeah. That's what I'm trying to convey to you. Brother to brother. You Know, I really respect that you took a situation that would, in many ways throw people off. You went right back at it and built this thing with your own hands. And I think it's so awesome because most people, they just don't have that inner strength to do that.
- [82:01]
A
Well, I. But I. Like I said, I mean, like, I love doing everything that I'm truly glad to make the good Lord every day for everything I have and being on this ultimate podcast as well. So, I mean, but knowing the same thing with. Even with the Ultimate Warrior. I mean, the reason why I always dug him so much, even when it. Just because of his. His. The app. I mean, in all his quotes that he has all the time as well. You just have no belief others say about you or anything. Just. It's just everything is just brute force.
- [82:32]
B
Yeah. You know?
- [82:34]
A
Yeah, without a doubt. So it's just like you can have the compassion of Jesus Christ and the brute force of the ultimate Warrior, Dick Butkus and Genghis Khan. As far as the determination and the work ethic, it just. You just. There is no. You think we're gonna. It's. No, you just do it.
- [82:52]
B
Have you ever heard the story where Warrior asked Vince McMahon for a quarter million dollars or he wasn't gonna go through the cut?
- [82:58]
A
What was it? The SummerSlam or what was it?
- [83:00]
B
Yeah, I heard that story from Sergeant Slaughter. Amazing story.
- [83:05]
A
Well, Sergeant Slaughter's really not a big fan of the Warrior is the ultimate puke to him. So, you know.
- [83:12]
B
Did you ever meet Sergeant Slaughter?
- [83:14]
A
I've never met him.
- [83:15]
B
Great, great, amazing.
- [83:17]
A
No, I'm sure all the guys are great. I mean, we know all the politics that goes on with all that stuff. I mean, that's. That's a whole nother world of insanity.
- [83:24]
B
Well, I think, you know, I live it every day. And you being a wrestling alliance and.
- [83:28]
A
Yeah, you own a wrestling. And by the way, Bubba Dudley always says amazing things about you.
- [83:33]
B
I love Bubba. Without a doubt, Bubba tells a story the first time he saw me in ECW locker room because Justin Credible had brought me in there.
- [83:42]
A
Okay.
- [83:42]
B
You know, when we were talking about locker rooms. Now I'm in the ECW locker room, and Bubba, which is. Squares me up from across the locker room, and he's thinking, who the hell is this person in my locker room? And he's about ready to come over and kill me. Somebody says, you know, that's the.
- [83:57]
A
It's gonna be your future boss.
- [84:00]
B
Who's that? I can't do the Bubba.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [84:03]
B
Last thing. Thank you for Indulging me, first of all, because I've seen you play live and. And even though I was watching some clips in anticipation for Interview, I don't know how you play so aggressively and so clean. It blows my mind. I've never seen anyone with your level of attack. And you put, you. You play flawlessly. I don't get it.
- [84:25]
A
I don't know if it's so flawlessly, but, you know, you can always. You can always get.
- [84:29]
B
I'll put it this way. I wish I could play like you.
- [84:32]
A
Well, I really. I'm really sure. J.D. who's our band. I've known J.D. since we're 17. He would go, but let's. Let's rethink that one. He goes, stick with Smash and pump.
- [84:42]
B
All right, I'm gonna just do that. I'm go to the videotape and I'm Slow it down and see if you missed one Shady. Because like you said, like, I play a lot of hammer ons, you know, I don't know where that came from. Maybe just laziness. But, you know, you're very. Like you said, you pick every note and. And to me, I. I mean, I watch you play for an hour and just like, what does he mess up? I don't see it.
- [85:03]
A
No, there's definitely clankers in there, but
- [85:06]
B
there's a lot of delay or something.
- [85:07]
A
Yeah.
- [85:09]
B
One thing I thought just in poking around, because I want to know what your future plans are. I mean, obviously you have your band, but you've ever thought doing like the kind of the All Star records, not the best, but it's like you get
- [85:23]
A
to get your friends together, tons of guests and stuff, like. Oh, yeah, Traveling Wilbury's.
- [85:26]
B
Well, you did the. You did the record that Andrew Watt did with Ozzy, you know.
- [85:29]
A
Yeah, you were on that.
- [85:31]
B
Tony's on that.
- [85:33]
A
Beck was on that pretty good record.
- [85:35]
B
You know, there's a lot of cool stuff on there. But I was just wondering from your perspective, because I thought it'd be interesting to hear you. I'm not saying like Carlos Santana, but, you know, he did that record. But I think it'd be interesting if there was a record built around your playing but that showed different modalities of your guitar playing. Because I saw an interview recently and it was before I knew I was going to interview you, where you were talking about Joe Pass and people you really.
- [86:00]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [86:01]
B
So I was like, it would surprise me.
- [86:02]
A
Oh, yeah. With Neil Giraldo. Yeah.
- [86:04]
B
I was like, you know, it's like most metal guys don't name check Joe Pass. You know what I mean?
- [86:09]
A
Yeah.
- [86:10]
B
So that told me as a fellow guitar player, like, oh, this guy's really studying the game, you know, because a lot of metal guys, they're really one lane guys and you know them, they're your friends.
- [86:18]
A
I mean.
- [86:18]
B
But nothing wrong with it.
- [86:20]
A
No, no, I agree. I mean, it's different. It's whatever you're into, you know, it's so funny. Like we would talk about like, you know, whether you like different music. We just happen to like. I love yacht rock. I love Christopher Cross. I'll listen to everything like that.
- [86:33]
B
Christopher Cross is your secret.
- [86:34]
A
Amazing. You know what I mean? Actually, Steve, look at that. Luke's out with him right now. Christopher Cross and Toto, right? So. No, but it's just, I love that like all the new wave essentials, whether it's Howard Jones and Gary Newman.
- [86:47]
B
Did you ever see Howard Jones when he had a mime?
- [86:50]
A
No, I never saw that.
- [86:51]
B
Check that clip out. He's on American Bandstand, I think.
- [86:55]
A
Oh, wow.
- [86:55]
B
It's when he's blowing up, okay, and there's that song, what Is Love?
- [86:59]
A
Yeah, totally. Which is a huge hit.
- [87:01]
B
So Dick Clark's interviewing him and he goes, so who's the other fella? He's like, well, you know, it gets a little boring with me just playing keyboard, singing. So I brought this mime and he literally has a mime when he's singing the fucking song.
- [87:15]
A
Dude, that is so great.
- [87:17]
B
You wanna, you wanna put some, some zip in your coffee? That is some other shit.
- [87:22]
A
I'll have to check that out.
- [87:24]
B
See, but I got my new wave
- [87:27]
A
knowledge, without a doubt. But I mean, it's just like, I love, I love all of it. So I mean, it's just like. But I remember reading this one quote with Johnny Winter and they said, well, Johnny, have you ever listened to. He goes, no. He goes, the only. Like I tell younger kids, you know, like, zach, you got any advice from my son or my daughter? I'm like, whatever music it is that moves you? Because I go, if it moves you, then that's, that's good music and you can feel it. And that's what you should be doing.
- [87:55]
B
I just, I just would like to hear you. It's. I love your playing. I listen you play all day. But it would be interesting to hear you put into different contexts.
- [88:03]
A
Oh, yeah, I dig what you're saying. Like different, different types of things. But I mean, it's just like. But it is, it is true. I mean, like talking about.
- [88:12]
B
Like, you with Jerry Cantrell would be amazing.
- [88:14]
A
I do. Yeah.
- [88:15]
B
Jerry, great writer.
- [88:17]
A
Jerry's amazing.
- [88:18]
B
You know how to write. Like, you two together, that'd be cool. You with Chino Moreno of Deftones. You know, I mean, I dig it. Chino's got such a cool voice to be.
- [88:25]
A
Interesting to hear. Yeah. With all different, you know, like you said, Traveling Wilbur is a doer yourself. Get yourself in this thing, you know, Maybe we'll have to. We'll put. Have to put this thing together.
- [88:33]
B
There you go. If we ruled the world.
- [88:34]
A
Yes.
- [88:35]
B
That's a great. Thank you, Zach.
- [88:36]
A
Hi, man. Great. Appreciate it, Father Bill. Thank you very much, buddy.