C (2:59)

Yeah, I think it confirms something that we've watched play out with clients for years. And I think the disconnect makes complete sense when you think about the incentive structures that marketers are working within. If you think about digital performance, channels made measurement feel safe. You could point to a cost per click, a conversion rate, a ROAS number, and use that to justify that spend to your cfo. And the converse to that is mass reach. Media demands a different kind of confidence. You have to believe that building a big audience creates downstream profit, even when the attribution model can't draw that straight line from impression to sale. I think the belief requires trusting the research maybe more than you trust your own dashboard. And most marketing teams are evaluated on metrics that reward that precision. So precision is what they end up optimizing for, even when the evidence says broad reach is what actually moves the needle on profit.

B (4:00)

Lesbinette, we love that he talks a lot about the evidence behind why tight targeting might not be entirely effective in all cases. But another thing he talks about, which we also love, is the idea that mass media actually works better than ever today. And he has found that the TV impact on business effects has actually increased over time, which I also think if you did a survey, would probably be even more dire about. Do marketers actually believe that? Because I don't think the majority of marketers think that's true. I think most marketers think that the effects have actually gotten weaker. Rob, why do you think they've actually gotten stronger?

A (4:37)

I mean, it's counterintuitive, right? I mean, everyone assumed that as media fragmented, TV would lose its juice, right? Lose its power. But it's actually been the opposite. Like everyone was running these tiny targeted digital pockets. TV becomes really one of the few places that you can really build your brand at scale. It's like everyone sort of left the big stage to go perform in little coffee shops. But the big stage is there. It's the biggest screen in the house, right? I'd add that the rest of the ecosystem gets rewarded by you Going to television as well, which is kind of the double bonus of it. Right. Your search lifts, you know, your other channels work harder. Retail takes notice. So TV is doing all this invisible work that really works for the rest of your marketing as well.

B (5:28)

Right. You're saying the fact that less brands buy TV or there's more competition in the digital marketplace that could be helping the brands that do choose to continue to invest in a channel like tv?

A (5:39)

Absolutely. I mean, even when we were doing the hurricane, which was years ago, no one was advertising canes on television. It was all very targeted, niche things. And so what a great stage for us to go on. And when, when no one else was there. And it just, it seems counterintuitive, like I said, but we were able to own it. We were able to launch in a retail faster than anyone else and actually create a brand in a category that had none.

B (6:04)

Well, let's talk about targeting. My favorite topic, digital marketing, as Ange kind of walked through it, trains us to think a certain way about targeting. And we get caught in this machine of picking exactly who sees our ad and being able to measure that and feeling good about the certainty. But when you're buying channels like tv, even like radio out of home, you can't hand select the individuals you're going to reach. And while that can be uncomfortable for marketers who grow up in digital, the research all points to that being actually a good thing. So Ange, as someone who's been buying radio media and then TV media for a long time, when a brand says, I only want to target my ideal customer, what's the problem with how they're usually thinking about doing that?

C (6:47)

Yeah, I think is the assumption that their ideal customer is already defined and already exists in this tidy segment. Most brands come to us in television with a profile. You've got demographics, psychographics, behavioral, potentially that represents this current buyer. And then they want to reach more of those same people. But we know from a plethora of research all saying the same thing, that growth almost always comes from those light buyers, those new buyers, people who are in the category occasionally or have never tried your brand at all. And those people may look nothing like your core customer profile. So when you target narrowly towards that existing base, you're sort of watering the plants that are already growing and ignoring the whole rest of the field. And that's the beauty to mass reach media. It's valuable because it puts your brand in front of people who were maybe never on your list. And some of those people could become your best Customers, you identify new segments and new growth opportunity. So it's kind of the challenge to yourself of who's the anti target and how could you create relevance with those people?

B (7:55)

Yeah, I like that. Who is the anti target, Rob? One concept that's come out of Aaron Berg Bass that kind of bends my brain a little bit when they start talking about it, but it makes sense in the end is that you should actually be thinking strategically about how can my creative do more of the targeting work than my media selection. But typically marketers, they focus 80% of their time on like, how am I going to target through media versus focusing on how do I have a creative message that can target for me? What would that look like in practice for a brand?

A (8:25)

I love this one because digital really taught us that targeting is a media problem. Right. You pick the segment, you serve the ad, you're done. Um, but creative, like you mentioned, it really can actually do that job and in many ways better than third party data sets can. If you think about the people your ad is relevant to, Right. They're going to self select and everyone will still get exposed to the brand at the same time. So the people watching it will see themselves, will see the opportunity for themselves in the ad. For example, stuffies. Right. Back in the day, we started out just targeting kids and moms, but we were on television and we recognized through that it was that the grandmas were actually the biggest buyers. So had we been niche targeting, we would have completely missed that opportunity. So definitely, I think creative has the opportunity to cast that net into your audience so you can see who your product truly resonates to.

B (9:21)

Yeah. And then also when we realized that grandmas were responding to the ads, we didn't just start targeting them, Right?

A (9:28)

Absolutely. And we adjusted the creative and recognized that grandma's room. But again, we weren't just buying like super niche grandma advertising now because moms saw the value in that as well and the kids saw how cool the product was.

B (9:40)

All right, let's get a little bit tactical with this targeting discussion. So everybody should know by now if you've been listening to this podcast, that we're a TV agency. And I think there's a misconception that with different types of television, like some linear, you cannot target at all. So a lot of brands say, I don't even want to go there. My audience isn't watching or I can't reach them effectively. So they say, I don't want linear. And then now CTV has come up as a lot of the positioning around it Is TV like digital? I can hand pick exactly who I want. Spoiler alert. Neither are exactly true. So, Ange, could you walk us through how a TV buy actually works in terms of reaching the right audience? What levers do media buyers have within a mass reach channel like tv?

C (10:22)

Yeah, I think it's really common to think about TV like digital, like you'd said. And I'm going to focus on the linear levers a little bit more than the ctv. But before going there. Yes, it's a digital environment, but one of the key pieces that we need to remember when we're talking true CTV is we're talking about a screen on a wall and we don't know who's in that room. And because of that, CTV becomes a lot more like linear than people might think. Yes, you have zip targeting. You can do demographic, behavioral. We can argue about whether or not some of that data is accurate enough to even care about. But that's just a really important thing to keep in mind. I think related to linear, I'll be thinking of the levers a little more like a dial than a scalpel. We think scalpel in a digital environment. In linear tv, you're making choices around networks around day parts, time of day, programming context. A sports viewer skews little differently than a daytime talk viewer potentially. And placing your brand in the right environment might create soft relevance. But the honest truth about how audience data works in television is it's built on ratings. Right? Nielsen or other, which are statistical estimates based on panel data. You're buying probabilities, you're not buying a guarantee. And so when a buyer says we're reaching adults 25, 54, that's a modeled projection across millions of households. And that doesn't mean it's not useful. It's directionally useful, can help inform strategy. But it's a far cry from that individual level precision that people might think of in the CTV space. And that's actually fine because of one of the pieces of research that we haven't talked about today, but we've talked about on many of the other podcasts. At any given moment, on an average, roughly 5% of your potential customers are actively in market for what you sell. The other 95% are living their lives, watching TV, going about their day, and they have no intention of buying right now. So if you design your media strategy purely around finding the people ready to buy today, you're competing ferociously for a tiny slice of the audience and completely ignoring everyone else. Mass reach media earns its value by working on that 95% building those memory structures that you mentioned earlier, Elena. Creating familiarity. So. So that when someone does enter the market, maybe six months from now, a year from now, your brand is already a part of their consideration set.

B (12:50)

Well, speaking of the future buyers and reaching people outside of your target customer. Rob, I know we just talked about how you can use creative to target on a channel like tv. However, I want to talk a little bit about creative strategy in general because if you know your ad's going to air broadly, sometimes it seems like brands can go too far with a very targeted message. A lot of people just don't understand versus going too broad. How do you think you thread that needle? How should creative be built to make sure that it works on tv but it also lands with the correct buyers?

A (13:23)

I'd say the first thing is that building for broad reach doesn't mean watering it down. The best mass reach creative is actually super specific, but specific in different ways. Clear story, strong emotional hook, distinctive brand assets you can't miss. The sharp focus is in the story, not in the demographic filter. I think the shift for folks coming from a digital world is going from who is this ad for? To what moment is this ad for? Right. What category entry points are right. Tie your brand to a buying situation and you'll show up in memory when that moment hits, no matter who that person is.

B (14:05)

Now sometimes when we talk about targeting on the podcast, we can sound a little bit like absolutists and want to be clear that targeting isn't bad. It has its place. The question is when and how do you use it? So Ange Bennett and Field have talked in the past about targeting being effective for that short term activation bucket. The short side of the long and the short. Could you explain what that means and how you think a brand should decide to use targeted media alongside their mass reach channels?

C (14:33)

Yeah, the framework draws a clear distinction, I think that's really helpful between brand building and activation and maps it pretty directly to how you think about targeting. So brand building is that long game. That work requires broad reach. It requires emotional residence. Activation is different. It's for people that are already in market, already considering a purchase and you want to push them, nudge them across that finish line, maybe with an offer, a reminder, a call to action. Targeted digital is well suited for that because you can find in market signals. You've got search behavior, you've got site visits, category engagement and you can serve them a timely message. I think the mistake brands make is running their activation creative as if it were brand building creative because they know they need a brand. They're trying to do two jobs at once, which isn't necessarily wrong because especially in television, you are reaching both in market consumers and out of market consumers. But they might be doing things like using that targeting budget to do awareness work, which is wrong. The right structure is mass reach building the audience over time and targeted activation converting those people who are ready to buy. Both have a role. The ratio just needs to reflect where the brand is in its growth stage.

B (15:50)

Yeah. So Rob, speaking of that, I've seen this before on tv. They'll take their kind of best performing activation, digital creative and they'll put that on television. What's the problem with that? And how should creative be different if you're running like certain creative on digital, certain creative on a mastery channel like tv, radio at home.

A (16:08)

Angela really hit all the great points on this one. You know, it really becomes a question of what is your, your focus going to be in the messaging. And then when you're in a mass reach channel, the creative is about being memorable, emotional, distinctive, you know, really celebrating all those assets that are built to last. And the amount of time you're going to spend on the activation stuff is going to be far less than what you're doing in digital. Digital is that place where you're meeting them in that buying moment and that's not where you're going to be hitting them with your television campaign. So definitely much more time spent on the brand building work that is going to be important both in the near term, as Angela was saying, but really important for the long term.

B (16:53)

So to wrap us up here, I think a lot of times brands, they build up on digital, which makes a lot of sense. And then eventually they realize, oh crap, we gotta do something different. So Ange, this happens frequently, marketing architects. A brand comes to you and says, hey, we've been spending most of our budget on performance digital. We want to start investing in TV or another sort of mass reach channel to balance this out. Where would you recommend they start in that transition?

C (17:18)

I think the first conversation is just getting clear what problem they're trying to solve. To your point, most brands in that situation have hit a ceiling. Their performance channels are delivering diminishing returns, customer acquisition costs are climbing and they can feel the growth stalling even if they're still showing a positive role as things are just getting harder. So we start by grounding them in the role that TV should play in their marketing ecosystem. TV builds this reach and brand equity over time. It's fueling the top of the funnel so that your performance channels can work harder downstream then I think we look at the math. Binette's research says you need tens of millions of exposures to move the needle statistically. So when we think about what a realistic budget commitment looks like and what time horizon to hold that investment accountable to, those are things we really have to get clear before we launch. For a lot of brands, starting with a test market or a seasonal window might make sense. Just enough to actually measure something with enough weight but contained enough to still feel manageable. You're not having to put millions and millions into television in order to understand whether or not it's working. And we build a really clear measurement expectation upfront. Not super precision but. But on what time horizon should we be looking for? What signals a scorecard? We say all measurement models are wrong. Some are very useful. That's where that comes from. What incrementality data are we going to be looking at? When is it going to come back? How are we going to interpret it? Because the worst outcome is pulling tv after 8 weeks. Maybe because the roas looks different than what they see in paid search, paid social. Maybe before those compound effects of TV have had a chance to show up.

B (19:07)

Yeah, really a worst case scenario when your brand is ready to invest in something like tv, you're ready to add brand and then you don't set it up right from the start and it goes kibosh. Not a fun feeling to wrap us up here. This was a hard question. I thought. I don't know why, but it was hard for me. What is a brand you feel like found you even though you were never their target audience. And I say this was hard for me because like most of the brands I use, like they feel like mine. So like I feel like I was their target. Yeah. I'm curious what you guys thought of. Okay.

C (19:37)

This was hard for me too, so that makes me feel better that you said that. I came up with Liquid IV because I would imagine their target audience is like hungover 20 year olds and endurance athletes like Elena and Snoop Rab a little bit too. I'm neither one of these people, but the brand was everywhere. I can't point back to actually where I learned about it, but I now travel with Liquid iv like it's prescribed to me.

A (20:09)

So delicious.

B (20:10)

It is delicious. You should try Element and I've heard

C (20:14)

of Elements but I have not tried it yet.

A (20:16)

So I have one right here.

C (20:17)

Oh my gosh.

B (20:18)

Classic runner. You just have an element like Right next to you. That's so funny.

A (20:22)

Oh, I've got one that's pretty near and dear to my heart right now. You know, my wife and I are empty nesters. We have two kids in college, so we're home alone. We have been adamant our entire lives that we would never own a van. The van is depressing and sad and makes you want to cry that you have to drive around in a van. And yet, after the fact, our kids have moved out. We bought a van. We bought a VW Buzz. And it's hilarious because they definitely were not targeting two empty nesters when they came out with that product. But you know what? The brand is joyful. It's retro. It makes people happy when they're driving it down the road. It's electric, which appeals to my nerdiness. So, yeah, definitely not the target audience for that vehicle. But. But we love it.

B (21:21)

I think that now seeing the van, Robin, knowing you, it seems like it was meant for you.

C (21:26)

It really is. I agree. I thought that too. Right when he said it, I was like, feels perfect for Rob.

A (21:31)

I just don't think the van category was going after empty nesters. But they got me dog parents. Maybe that's true. We do have two golden doodles and a little Yorkie.

B (21:43)

So this one was tough for me. And I know I've mentioned this brand recently on the podcast, but mine is sleep number, because if you look up sleep number and kind of their target audience and their advertising, they say that they target, like, 35 to 54 homeowners. And I actually bought a sleep number when I was right out of college living in an apartment. And I honestly don't know why. I was trying to think of, like, why did I do that? I think my parents might have had one, but honestly, I remember their advertising more than anything. Like the advertising they've done with the NFL in particular. Like, I still see the sleep number spot in my head, and I honestly think that they just hit me when I was out of market. And even though I wouldn't be their exact target audience at that age, that was the mattress brand that came to mind. There you go.

A (22:28)

Yeah.

C (22:28)

Power of the anti target.

B (22:30)

All right, well, I think that'll wrap us up today. That's it for this episode of the Marketing Architects. We'd like to thank Taylor De Los Reyes for producing the show. You can connect with us on LinkedIn. And if you like the podcast, please leave us a review. Now go forth and build great marketing. Marketing Architects.