The Marketing Architects - Episode Summary

Episode: Finding the Efficiency/Effectiveness Balance
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Elena Jasper (Director of Marketing), Angela Voss (CEO), Rob DeMars (Chief Product Architect)

Overview

This episode of The Marketing Architects explores a hot debate in marketing: the tension between efficiency (doing more with less, optimizing for ROI) and effectiveness (achieving real business growth through scale and reach). Inspired by new research from Les Binet and Will Davis presented at the 2025 IPA Effectiveness Conference, the hosts unpack the surprising finding that marketing budget—not ROI—is the primary driver of profit growth. The team discusses why this is misunderstood across the industry, the dangers of over-optimizing for efficiency, and practical steps for rebalancing marketing investments toward effectiveness and growth.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Efficiency vs. Effectiveness in Marketing (03:17)

• Efficiency: How much you get per dollar spent. Focuses on short-term measurements like cost per lead and ROI. "It becomes more about optimization, reducing waste, lowering cost per lead, ultimately all in effort to try to improve that ROI." — Angela Voss (03:17)
• Effectiveness: The total impact on business outcomes like sales, profit, and market share. It’s about growing the business in a meaningful way, driven by scale and broad reach.

Memorable Quote:

“Real effectiveness requires scale, reach, investment—spending enough to actually grow the business.” — Angela Voss (03:17)

2. Budget Is 8x More Important than ROI for Profit Growth (01:22, 08:02)

Binet and Davis’ research, based on hundreds of case studies, found that in award-winning campaigns:

• Budget accounts for 89% of the variance in profit.
• ROI only explains 11%.
• Yet, most marketers believe ROI is the most important driver.

Notable Stat:

• “In a survey of 500 senior marketing leaders, 65% said ROI was the biggest contributor to success. Only 35% named budget.” — Elena Jasper (02:24)

Explanation:

"Profit from advertising is ROI times spend. So, if ROI moves a bit but spend swings a lot, spend explains most of the variation in profit." — Angela Voss (08:21)

3. Why ROI Is So Beloved (05:14, 06:20)

• ROI feels safe and rational—“something you can defend in a boardroom.”
• Small campaigns can have high ROI (small denominator), even if they barely impact total profit.
• Dashboards and finance teams reinforce this focus, making ROI the main headline instead of actual profit or market share.

Quote:

“You can be an absolute idiot in a boardroom. Someone can propose an idea, and all you have to say is, well, what's the ROI on that? And you sound smart, right?”
— Rob DeMars (06:20)

4. The "Death Spiral" of Over-Optimizing Efficiency (03:36, 12:21)

• Brands chasing only efficiency start hyper-targeting, reducing budgets, focusing on small segments, and neglecting broader audiences.
• Creates a negative cycle: smaller budgets → less reach → smaller profits → more pressure for efficiency.

Quote:

“You can literally optimize yourself into irrelevance.”
— Rob DeMars (12:21)

5. Channel Planning: Rethinking the "Where" (13:37)

• Shift from asking “which channels are most efficient?” to “which channels can deliver the scale and exposures that we actually need to grow?”
• Focusing solely within digital silos ignores the bigger picture.
• For significant impact, brands often need campaign exposures in the tens or hundreds of millions.

Quote:

“Not every brand is at a point in which they can meaningfully go big or go home. TV is not right for everybody. But if budget and reach explain the majority of the variation in profit, then the question is... which channels can deliver the scale and the exposures that we actually need to grow?” — Angela Voss (13:48)

6. Scale, Cost, and Media Buying (17:13)

• The cost of media controls your reach: high CPMs choke scale, while affordable mass media unlocks broad reach.
• Linear and Connected TV, radio, and high-impact digital are viable options for building scale when used smartly.

Quote:

“If effectiveness depends on scale, then the cost of your media dictates how much scale you can actually buy.” — Angela Voss (17:13)

7. Balancing Efficiency and Effectiveness (18:59)

• Efficiency = minimize waste and optimize spend today.
• Effectiveness = invest in future growth and brand strength via reach and memory-building.
• Optimal balance is often a 60/40 split: 60% brand-building, 40% short-term activation per IPA/Binet.
• Use efficiency metrics as a tuning knob, but make effectiveness the steering wheel.

Quote:

“If you only chase that efficiency... you end up with beautiful dashboards but a shrinking brand.” — Angela Voss (18:59)

8. Creativity at Scale (21:04)

• Creative still matters, but less than budget and reach in terms of moving the needle.
• Focus on big, campaignable ideas that are extensible across channels (“Creative engines” like Geico’s gecko or Apple’s “Shot on iPhone”).
• Consistency trumps endless variety; underexposure is a bigger problem than wearout.

Quote:

“Creativity at scale does not mean a thousand tickety-tock videos and a prayer. It still comes back to the fundamentals—one big, amazing, campaignable idea that can survive every format.”
— Rob DeMars (21:04)

9. Going Big: What it Looks Like (22:30)

• Set budgets based on growth goals, not “last year plus inflation.”
• Model profit impact of spend, don’t treat budget setting as an afterthought.
• Prioritize media and creative that can deliver mass reach affordably and consistently.
• Fewer, bigger bets and ideas; assets that run long enough to work.

Quote:

“Going big means setting budgets based on those growth goals versus what we spent last year or the ROI that we're seeing out of each channel in Q4... Budget setting is the most important decision in marketing.”
— Angela Voss (22:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[ROI] has just been this comfy blanket we can all agree upon... and now it gets dispelled.” — Rob DeMars (06:20)
• “The biggest brands are the biggest and they spend the most on marketing.” — Elena Jasper recalling Dale’s prior episode (10:09)
• “Wear out is mostly a myth. Underexposure is the bigger problem.” — Angela Voss (23:52)

Practical Advice & Takeaways

• When making the case internally, reframe budget as a growth lever, not a cost center.

“Instead of saying we need more budget, say we're leaving profit on the table.” — Rob DeMars (10:52)

• Use research (like the 89% stat) to educate stakeholders about the real drivers of profit.
• Plan media buys and creative for scale and consistency—don’t get lost optimizing tiny segments or endless creative tweaks.
• Remember, marketing is about effectiveness in the long run—efficiency is a tool, not the destination.
• Be bold: do something different from your category to stand out.

Fun Segment: Efficiency vs. Effectiveness in Life (24:49)

The hosts humorously reflect on ways they've been “too efficient” in their personal lives—Angela with over-optimized travel plans, Rob tracking health data obsessively, Elena speed-reading but not retaining books—highlighting how chasing efficiency can sometimes undermine true effectiveness.

“I literally considered a urine tracker... my only problem is I pee in too many toilets.” — Rob DeMars (25:25)

Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – The efficiency vs. effectiveness debate introduction
• 03:17 – Defining efficiency vs. effectiveness
• 08:02 – Why budget is the biggest driver of profit
• 10:52 – Making the case for budget internally
• 12:21 – The “death spiral” of efficiency overkill
• 13:48 – Channel planning and reach
• 17:13 – CPM, scale, and media buying
• 18:59 – Balancing efficiency and effectiveness
• 21:04 – Creativity at scale
• 22:30 – “Go big or go home” in practice
• 24:49 – Personal stories on (in)efficiency

Final Thoughts

This episode challenges marketers to rethink their obsession with efficiency and ROI. The research is clear: scale and broad reach—enabled by sufficient investment—drive sustainable growth. Marketers are urged to rebalance their strategies, advocate for bigger, growth-oriented budgets, and focus on big, lasting creative ideas that reach the widest possible audience. Efficiency matters, but only in service of effectiveness.