The Marketing Architects – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Perfecting Digital Marketing Effectiveness with Kevin Goodwin
Air Date: October 28, 2025
Host(s): Laina Jasper (B), Angela Voss (D), Rob Demar (C)
Guest: Kevin Goodwin (A), Senior VP of Strategy & Growth at New Engine

Overview

This episode centers on digital marketing effectiveness and the evolving role of digital channels in both performance and brand-building efforts. Featuring Kevin Goodwin, known for his data-driven approach and experience across performance marketing and strategic brand-building, the conversation traces the evolution of digital strategy, measurement challenges, and the increasing need for marketers to bridge the gap between short-term performance and long-term brand growth. The discussion is deeply rooted in marketing, psychology, and economics research, with practical guidance and real-world anecdotes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kevin’s Transition from Finance to Digital Marketing

• Background: Kevin shares how he moved from finance (his “boring, old school” internships) into digital marketing largely by chance, driven by a desire for data-driven, fast-paced work ([03:34]).
• Quote:

  “It was a lot of desperation to get a job… but I had done a number of internships in finance that quite frankly were extremely boring, old school, a little stodgy… it totally sold me on it.” – Kevin ([03:34])

2. The Impact of a Data Science-Heavy Early Career

• At Zulily, Kevin worked alongside statisticians and a full data science team, which fostered humility, curiosity, and a deep awareness of what data and measurement can achieve in marketing ([05:02]).
• Quote:

  "I'm never the smartest person in the room. So it really helped curate curiosity... it instilled a good humility and curiosity that I've carried throughout my career." – Kevin ([05:02])

3. The Evolution from Performance-Only to Balanced Brand and Performance Approach

• The agency was initially laser-focused on bottom-funnel/performance channels (Meta, Google).
• The industry shift (iOS 14, rising interest rates) forced a deeper look at measurement and strategy, ultimately nudging the team towards incorporating brand-building into their digital mix ([07:20]).
• Research by Tom Roach and others (Les Binet, Grace Kite) guided this evolution by showing that digital can deliver short- and long-term ROI, especially with advancements in digital video ([07:20]).
• Quote:

  “We started doing that... like one of the first things we really got into was looking at share of search and we would do it for clients and we'd be like, oh whoa, that's super interesting.” – Kevin ([07:20])

4. Helping Clients Move Up the Funnel: Change Management in Digital Brand-Building

• Brands often "know" they need brand, but fear moving away from performance certainty.
• Kevin’s approach: gradual, staircase-style transition by adjusting things like attribution windows in Meta, proving value step by step ([10:22]).
• Importance of tailored change management for different decision makers (CFOs, CMOs, growth managers).
• Strong emphasis on the need for advanced measurement to tie upper-funnel activities to business impact.
• Quote:

  "A huge part of our focus has been not necessarily on the strategy itself, but like change management... facilitate buy in, getting people to understand this, approaching it from a bunch of different angles..." – Kevin ([10:22])

5. Measurement Challenges in the Current Marketing Environment

• The obsession with short-term, daily metrics is a major challenge.
• Platforms (Google, Meta) rapidly innovate, each delivering different incremental impacts—keeping pace is tough.
• Attribution—especially omnichannel and influencer—remains complex; data access can be a barrier ([13:41]).
• Quote:

  "You have a generation of marketers and executives who become so attached to like the daily report of like what's the channel doing … the capitalistic economy rewards this short-term point of view." – Kevin ([13:41])

6. What Marketers Get Wrong about Digital Brand-Building

• Digital marketers often apply performance marketing tactics to brand-building, leading to poor results (e.g., hacky tests, recycled performance creative).
• Over-reliance on platform algorithms can result in low-quality, cheap reach, which doesn’t serve brand goals.
• Brand-building needs deliberate, platform-aware strategies that differ from conversion-centric ones ([16:40]).
• Quote:

  “Digital marketers treat brand building too much like performance marketing ... a lot of hacky tests, or just taking creative from your performance campaign and throwing it in a reach campaign.” – Kevin ([16:40])

7. Opportunities and Advanced Measurement in Digital

• Need for incrementality-based, always-on measurement, not just attribution ([19:01]).
• Creative for digital brand-building should focus more on storytelling, emotion, and memorability, rather than on instant conversions ([19:01]).
• Ongoing push to platforms for more advanced upper/mid-funnel tools ([19:01]).

8. Contrarian Opinions

• Despite being data-driven, Kevin argues for “directional tests and intuition” to avoid inaction and encourage bolder moves in a fast-changing world ([21:10]).
• Uses the “three-pointer in the NBA” analogy to advocate for high-risk, high-reward experiments in marketing.
• Quote:

  “Take big swings, test directionally, trust your intuition a little bit. Still do the scientific rigor for sure, but we get a little too caught up in the nitty gritty. Status quo is the death knell.” – Kevin ([21:10])

9. Preparing for The Death of the Click

• Kevin encourages marketers to stop obsessing over click data as AI, GEO targeting, and new video formats shift tracking paradigms. Predicts this change will ultimately improve marketing measurement and strategy ([23:25]).
• Quote:

  “We should all be intensely preparing for the death of the click … it’s only becoming more and more obvious.” – Kevin ([23:25])

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On brand skepticism turned advocacy:

  "On the digital side, we hated brand too. Like oh, what a joke, what a waste of money. Why would you ever do this? Oh, I'll go build a time machine and go reprimand my past self being so naive." – Kevin ([10:22])

• On change management in bringing clients up the funnel:

  “Let's go in the shallow end, let's dip a toe in, let's wear some water wings, let's work our way up and do it one thing at a time.” – Kevin ([10:22])

• On the algorithmic nature of platforms:

  "Marketers, digital marketers especially, are so used to that and saying, hey, meta is really good at optimizing the portfolio of placements. But from a brand perspective, that's not true." – Kevin ([16:40])

Memorable Moments & Lighter Segments

• Crypto Joke: Rob asks if you can buy a Super Bowl ad with Dogecoin. Kevin quips, “I have no idea. I wish I did, otherwise I wouldn’t be here talking to you guys.” ([01:50])
• Digital Obsessions Segment (~[24:57]):
  • Kevin enjoys long-form content on LinkedIn and Substack, tries to stay away from short-form apps.
  • Laina uses Reddit for authentic answers (“I typically am adding Reddit to the end of my search query…”).
  • Rob gets “lost” in IMDb trivia.
  • Angela uses TikTok as a curated “edutainment” resource.
• Byron Sharp Watch: Posting about marketing effectiveness on LinkedIn requires thinking about how experts like Byron Sharp might critique your position ([26:34]).

Resources & Where to Follow

• Kevin Goodwin:
  • LinkedIn (search “Kevin Goodwin”, the one with the mustache)
  • Substack (linked from his LinkedIn)
• New Engine:
  • New Engine Website (NEwENgEN.com, “not spelled how you think it’s spelled”)
  • LinkedIn Company Page

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kevin’s background & shift to marketing: [03:34]
• Impact of working with statisticians & data scientists: [05:02]
• Evolution of New Engine’s approach post-iOS 14: [07:20]
• Navigating change management with clients: [10:22]
• Measurement struggles & daily metric obsession: [13:41]
• What marketers get wrong in digital brand-building: [16:40]
• Advanced measurement & creative’s new role: [19:01]
• Contrarian marketing views: [21:10]
• Preparing for the ‘death of the click’: [23:25]
• Digital obsessions / favorite platforms & apps: [24:57]

Takeaways

• Digital marketing has rapidly evolved to require a blend of performance and brand strategies, and leaders like Kevin emphasize both rigorous measurement and experimental intuition.
• The future points toward less focus on clicks and more on measuring true incrementality and long-term brand growth—even as platforms and tools keep changing.
• Marketers must unlearn old habits (like over-trusting algorithms or misapplying performance tactics to brand) and seek new ways to adapt, measure, and build lasting brands in digital spaces.

For more insights on marketing effectiveness, follow Kevin Goodwin on LinkedIn or visit New Engine’s website and LinkedIn page!