← The Marketing Architects
The Marketing Architects
Perfecting Digital Marketing Effectiveness with Kevin Goodwin
00:30:10
Most digital marketers treat brand building like performance marketing. They run two-day tests, allocate 0.2% of budget, or recycle performance creative for reach campaigns. It fails every time. This week, Elena, Angela, and Rob are joined by Kevin...
Loading summary
Transcript47 lines
- [00:00]
A
Everyone wants to do the right thing, but it's so hard. And the capitalistic economy rewards this short term point of view. And so that is honestly one of the biggest hangups is how do you still deliver something like that, but reinforce the right behaviors and the right beliefs that aren't like, let's change everything every day.
- [00:15]
B
Marketing Architects. Hello and welcome to the Marketing Architects, a research first podcast dedicated to answering your toughest marketing questions. I'm Laina Jasper. I run the marketing team here at Marketing Architects. I'm joined by my co host, Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects, and Rob Demar is the chief product architect of misfits and machines. And we're joined by Kevin Goodwin, senior vice president of strategy and growth at New Engine, a digital marketing agency recently named Digiday's most innovative agency of 2025. With a background in finance and early experience at Zulily, Kevin developed a passion for data and measurement that's guided his career ever since. At newengine, he launched and leads a strategic consulting division where he's overseen more than a billion dollars in ad spend and helped scale multiple brands past $100 million in revenue. His team partners with clients on full funnel strategies, measurement challenges, and he works to translate the language of performance into the language of brand. He's one of today's leading voices on digital effectiveness, and we're excited to chat with him today. So, Kevin, welcome to the show.
- [01:16]
A
Thank you. Great to be here. Longtime listener, first time caller. Appreciate the opportunity.
- [01:23]
C
It's so good to have you here. Now, Kevin, you definitely have one of the deepest financial industry backgrounds of any marketer we've ever had on the. On the podcast.
- [01:34]
A
And I. I know probably.
- [01:36]
C
No, we're going to get into a bunch of smart marketing talk in a minute, but first, let's talk crypto. Are we in a bubble? Is it going to surpass 200 a coin? And when will I be able to buy a Super bowl spot with a dogecoin?
- [01:51]
A
That's a great question. I'm glad you asked that, Rob. I. I have no idea. I wish I did, otherwise I wouldn't be here talking to you guys.
- [01:58]
C
All right, well, I suppose we can't pass out any financial advice on this podcast anyways.
- [02:03]
A
Yes, correct.
- [02:04]
B
Kevin, your life is very private online. Rob had trouble finding a fun fact about you to use, so that should make you feel good. Had to go with that. All right, we're back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news. Always trying to root our opinions in data research and what drives business results. I'll kick us off, as I always do, with some research and today I chose an article by Tom Roach. It's titled Brand Building and the Platforms. In the article, Roach pushes back against the idea that digital channels can't build brand. He reminds us that no brand has ever been built by advertising alone, but that advertising, and increasingly digital advertising can make a meaningful contribution to long term growth. He points out that we're at an inflection point. The major platforms once dominant in lower funnel performance are now competing for brand budgets. The rise of digital video, whether it's YouTube, TikTok or CTV, has made these channels more powerful for building memory and emotion. Econometric evidence shows that most digital channels now deliver both short and long term roi, with video in particular having a lasting impact. But of course, brand building in digital isn't without challenges. Attention is scarce and creative has to be built for the platform, not just recycled from something like a TV spot. But we're learning fast and brands are proving what's possible in both the short and the long. So Kevin, thanks again for joining. I'm really excited to have a digital expert on the POD because we are understandably biased to offline channels like tv since that's what we do here at Marketing Architects. But I wanted to start a little bit earlier here. You studied finance as Rob teed up, but you ended up in digital marketing. How did that shift happen and what drew you into the world of marketing?
- [03:35]
A
It's a little sad to hear that I have the most finance experience of anyone on the pod because those years are, you know, 15 years behind me at this point, honestly. You know, it's easy to attribute it to some fortuitous events, but it was a lot of desperation to get a job right out of school. And so I think some of it was pure accident, which I think is how a lot of these things tend to go. I think I originally got into finance because I really like math and numbers and especially kind of like applied versions of that. So I really enjoyed like the applied statistics classes I took in business school, making numbers real world and bringing them to real world scenarios. And so when I graduated I ended up networking with someone who was working in digital marketing who just so happened to have a background in finance, previously worked in finance. And it was a conversation. I was like, I guess I will talk to this guy. I had no interest in it and he totally sold me on it. Just like the data driven component, the fast paced component. I had done a number of internships in finance that quite frankly Were extremely boring, old school, a little stodgy and I was like, oh, is this the life ahead of me for the next 60 years of my career, 40 years of my career, however long careers are, and so totally sold me on it. I ended up getting a job offer through that conversation and the rest is history.
- [04:44]
B
Well, like you said, maybe there's not enough marketers that have this finance background. So it was probably a good thing that set you up for what was to come. And when we talked, you mentioned that you joined Zulily and you ended up working alongside statisticians, a full data science team. How then do you think that experience shaped your approach to marketing today?
- [05:03]
A
First off, I'm extremely grateful for that. As I look at the marketing world and I look at other folks and experiences people have, like I realize how abnormal that experience is and this was in 2012, 2013, so a long time ago. And you would think these things would become more normal, but they're not. A few takeaways I have from that. The first is like it taught me I'm never the smartest person in the room. So it really helped curate like curiosity. Like I had to ask questions because I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. You're making me feel quite dumb. But it instilled a good humility and curiosity that like I've carried throughout my career and I think we embody that new engine where I'm at currently. It opened my mind to what's possible with data. I think when I first came up I was working in the email marketing world and at the time Gmail had just rolled out their tabs functionality. So the primary tab, promotions tab updates, that was brand new thing and it was catastrophic for email marketers. And so we did tons and tons of like interesting data projects to see how we could hack that. And so we were doing lots of modeling of like how do you get out of the promotions tab and into the primary tab? Like what traits of an email? None of it worked but it was like I got to experience all these things of like what you can do with data and the stories you can tell and the insights you can glean. I feel like anything is possible. And so that's partially why I just love this industry and this job is you can always find interesting insights. And then I think the third just like very obvious one is it really elevated my statistical literacy. Like I by no means claim to be an expert. When the experts start talking, I get a little bit lost. I'm proficient in a room. I know what people are referencing, I know what they're talking about, and I know the importance of good rigor. There's. I usually rely on a true statistician or data science to like do that work, but I can say, hey, this doesn't need a scrutiny bar that we want to pass here.
- [06:42]
B
It's funny that you have that background because we were founded by a statistician and I think that's something we bring up a lot is having carried through the history of the agency and it is a unique, unfortunately sometimes a unique point of view for marketing to be coming from. So I can see how that's been a real strength. And those smart people, or some of those smart people from Zulily then went on to found new engine. And I know you've been there for almost a decade and when we talked you mentioned that over time you've started to have more of an interest in marketing effectiveness and your agency, which is a digital shop, although I know you do multiple channels, has evolved from being purely performance focused to finding more of a balanced approach. Can you walk us through what that evolution has looked like?
- [07:21]
A
It's been both fast and slow at the same time. As you alluded to. We were so performance minded, born out of the boom that was meta in the middle 2000 and tens and Google and digital marketing and all the D2C darlings that came out of that time. But in 21 iOS 14 hit and so like tracking became a huge problem and interest rates started to rise and so like free money was no longer a thing. And those were really the two effects that like made us question everything. Like all these strategies we'd known to be world beating, all these brands we'd know to be world beating. All the D2C darlings, all of it was challenged all of a sudden. And so I, I think we knew we had to evolve. We just didn't really know exactly what that was since we were so of this performance mindset, of this data driven mindset. And honestly, it's Elena, I love that you started with that Tom Roach article because a few of us stumbled on Tom Roach's the wrong and the Short of it article, which is one of my all time favorites, which led us to Les Bin A and Grace Kite, which led me to go buy a hard copy of how brands Grow and like just started this journey into this new world. And I think because those folks in that world are so data driven, it really resonated with us. And we weren't like, this isn't marketing Fluff in air quotes. It's, this is real and it's tangible and it's meaningful and it's very different than how we've looked at things, but through a lot of the similar lenses, like very measurable and again very data driven and scientific. So we started doing that. Like I think one of the first things we really got into was looking at share of search and we would do it for clients and we'd be like, oh whoa, that's super interesting. He's got a really tapering off. And you would never know that looking at just their direct channels and just kind of like one step after another led to us going down this path and fast forward. We've made huge investments in measurement, huge investments in strategy team and a media planning team. And we continue to just educate ourselves and try to get better and then also try to do the same with our clients. And it's been really fun. I mean I, I think I alluded to this a little bit earlier but like this career, the opportunities to learn and just like constantly get better. I think it's been one of the most fun parts of this is just to like learn an entire new way of thinking and go apply it in a business context.
- [09:25]
D
There's so much we can relate to there. Kevin I love just hearing the story of the inspiring research with us. It was the original lesbian Peter Field, but it just grew, right. And it challenges how you think about marketing. And in our situation at least we were really against brand. Like we came up, grew up in performance marketing in quote unquote doctor and just felt like brand marketing was highly unaccountable. It was wasteful, there was no way to prove it. We really like argued against it. And so to hear your story and to reflect on our own journey and now to be the inspiration for our clients, I think we probably have some synergies there. Many of your clients, I understand, still see performance as their base. And that's a really common place, I think, for to start from, especially as they're going up our funnel. How do you help them move up the funnel towards brand building?
- [10:23]
A
On the digital side, we hated brand too. Like, oh, what a joke, what a waste of money. Why would you ever do this? Oh, I'll go build a time machine and go reprimand my past self being so naive. This is the problem we set out to solve right now. Because I think the way I view it is like most people now know, at least at a very, very high level that they should be doing something. There's enough Discussion and discourse around like, hey, you should be doing some brand building. You can't do this all with bottom funnel. No one, especially in our cohort of very performance minded brands are willing to like take that leap of faith and jump into the deep end. And so we really focus on this like quite literally moving them up the funnel, going from a very bottoms up approach. And so because of that, it's funny, a huge part of our focus has been not necessarily on like the strategy itself, but like change management. Like how do you think about facilitating buy in, getting people to understand this, approaching it from a bunch of different angles, that you have stakeholders like CFOs who look at things very financially. You have stakeholders like a growth manager who's used to running hands on keys in meta and then you have maybe a CMO or some other brand building person. And so lots of different people in the room. We have been very focused because of that on this like stair step approach. Let's go in the shallow end, let's dip a toe in, let's wear some water wings, let's work our way up and do it one thing at a time. And so in the digital world, like some of these changes are really small as you start to think about what that looks like as you move up. One of my favorites is within Meta. Like this is the most boring thing in the world, but it's like a big jump for a lot of brands is changing your optimization window or your attribution window. So many people have become so obsessed with click attribution and so they optimize to that in meta. And what meta is exceptionally good at is getting people who click ads and convert. But you pay a premium for that audience. It's a very narrow audience because a lot of people don't click ads or don't click and convert. And so we usually say, hey, let's take that out of the equation or let's open it up more broadly, let's bring a different view into the table and get a bigger audience. And so what that means is you open your reach up just a little bit, you get slightly less attributable results, but ultimately it helps you just like build that comfort. Like, okay, we made a change, it's something we weren't comfortable with. We saw the proof. Now what the goal is just to move people away from like the obsession of this like deterministic, highly trackable. And we found the easiest way to do that is to stair step up. Obviously measurement plays a really key part in this too. And so I Think for anyone who's looking to go to like true brand building, reach, video view type stuff that we do, a lot of you really need sophisticated measurement because it has to tie back to some sort of business impact and bottom line. And so if someone's not comfortable with that or doesn't have those capabilities or we're not doing it for them, it's not a non starter, but it's a harder conversation to say, hey, you're not going to see this and we're going to have no way to know how to measure this or attach it back to business performance. So yeah, we spent a ton of time with this. It's a fun exercise. It's sometimes a little slower than we want it to be, but ultimately that's what helps build like the long term buy in that this is the right way to go.
- [13:17]
D
All brands I feel are coming from a good place. Whether they grew up in performance marketing or they grew up on the TRP GRP side of the world, they're all wanting to do right by their brand, just coming from different angles. And measurement is such a key topic in that. To your point, last touch, et cetera versus trying to measure something like brand equity. What are you coming across as some of the biggest challenges in the measurement space right now?
- [13:42]
A
You're totally right. Everyone wants to do the right thing, but it's so hard. And the markets and everything, the capitalistic economy rewards this short term point of view. And so that is honestly one of the biggest hangups is you have a generation of marketers and executives who become so attached to like the daily report of like what's the channel doing, what's the tactic doing, how do we act on it? Today we spend a lot of time thinking about like how do you still deliver something like that but reinforce the right behaviors and the right beliefs that aren't like let's change everything every day. We have CFOs and CMOs who will even say like, I know it's foolish to look at marketing this way, but we have to, it's the only thing that we have. And solving that I think is a massive opportunity, one we spend a lot of time thinking about. You hear a lot about like incrementality multipliers to manage through that. But ultimately whoever can crack the daily view, like I think we're just so attached to that that we'll always need something there in this space, but something that rewards kind of long term behaviors. I think there's a lot of opportunity there. On the more technical side, one of the challenges we constantly fight with is the digital platforms are always rolling out new tools, new ways of buying. And so Google just launched their AI max in the last couple months. Before that it was pmax. Meta has asc, they've changed their algorithm and every single one of these things delivers differently and produces different outcomes and has a different degree of incrementality. House, if you guys are familiar with them, they're like very incrementality forward measurement agency or measurement solution, I should say. They have some really interesting data that shows just how different these are and there's lagged effects and there's short term effects and they all look so different. So keeping up with that, constantly experimenting and changing your mix and your approach based on how these tools vary, I think it's really fun. But it's also a huge challenge to keep up with that change. And also consider that the platform themselves may not always be incentivized to deliver you the most incremental outcome, considering they have shareholders that they are responsible to. So I think those are two big ones measuring omnichannel impact. I don't think that's unique to digital, but it's a huge problem a lot of our brands face right now. Attaching a retail sale or an Amazon sale to a Facebook impression, that's really critical work, but it's hard to do. And sometimes like data access is a challenge there and then influencer is another one. There's so much like, we think we know that this is driving a lot of effect. How exactly? Good or bad, what kind of effect is this having? That's really hard to measure. When you start talking organic, when you start talking just like clout, which is a funny word to use on a, a podcast about marketing effectiveness. But like I think that matters. And how do you capture that in an mmm or an incrementality experiment? Like, I have no idea. But we know it's important and so we're trying ways to prove that out. Gosh.
- [16:21]
C
We've been talking about our shared belief in brand kind of coming later, right? As you think about digital is not usually seen as a brand building channel, at least compared to some of the other ones out there. What do you think marketers get wrong when it comes to brand building and digital?
- [16:40]
A
Rob, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this question because digital, I think to, to the original article that Elena quoted, like it gets a bad rap for marketing effectiveness. And as a digital native person, I'm like slighted personally almost by that. So I think it's almost become my, like, mission to prove that wrong, whether I'm right or not. We'll see. I've thought about this a lot very recently actually, and I think the number one thing I see is that digital marketers treat brand building too much like performance marketing, or they try to do all the same things that they do in a performance world for a brand world. And so what that means is like a lot of like hacky tests, like, oh, we're just going to spin this up for two days, just see what happens, or we're going to do this with like 0.2% of our budget, or we're just going to take this creative from our performance campaign and just throw it in a reach campaign and see what happens. And I love the, like, initiative and the experimentation mindset. I do not want to bash that at all, but I think it fails to kind of observe the differences in what you're trying to affect with brand building versus performance marketing. And I think it neglects a lot of this algorithmic component that is so heavy dictating what happens within these platforms. I see teams in general kind of relinquish too much control to the platforms. You risk wasting a ton of spend. An area we've spent a ton of time researching and testing this year is I think meta has like 20ish unique placements like Instagram feed, Facebook feed, reels stories like overlay ads in video ads. And they're all so variable when it comes to quality, viewability, cost, like, you name it. And if you just say like, hey, Meta, go get my desired outcome, they're going to distribute that in probably a way that's actually not best, especially when it comes to brand building. I think it's pretty effective from a performance lens. And so marketers, digital marketers especially, are so used to that and saying, hey, meta is really good at optimizing the portfolio of placements. But from a brand perspective, that's not true. And sometimes it's just a cost optimization. So you get really cheap reach, but it's like really low quality reach. And so I think it's like you have to do things almost like, opposite the way you should in a performance world. You have to like, think what the algorithms are incentivized to do and think very deliberately about what you're actually trying to achieve. And then what we find is that it just dictates a much better outcome in brand building.
- [18:54]
C
Continuing on that theme, what are other opportunities marketers can do when they're looking to build their brand using Digital, I.
- [19:01]
A
Think the one is you definitely need advanced measurement. And so even if that's like a simple incrementality solution, do that and make it a part of your kind of evergreen program. I definitely come back to what are all the angles that you have a performance lens through and then how do you need to look at those differently? I talked about optimization earlier. I think creative is a really interesting one. I think so much of what digital marketers have been taught about creative is again somewhat opposite of what's good for brand building. And so how do you merge those two worlds? Like the performance side rewards like insane volume, insane breadth, tons and tons of rapid experimentation, same day rotation of creative. I think that degree of change can be counterproductive on the brand side. And similarly you're very focused on like very quick wins, like a two second hook and things like that. Whereas on the brand building side you want to be thinking about storytelling and building emotion and making your brand memorable and kind of a brand buying moment. And so it's just a very different lever and thinking outside of that and avoiding some of the proxies like a hook rate as an example of that. We've become so interested in on the performance side. This is maybe a fool's endeavor, but like continuing to challenge the platforms themselves. Every time I talk to Meta or Google I'm like, the tools we want are better algorithmic solutions for brand building. We have great solutions. On the doctor side the solutions for the upper funnel and mid funnel are not particularly good. You guys have great data, you have engineers, you have incredible ad technology. Bring stuff to market that helps us do both. We will spend more with you if you do. I wouldn't say I have the largest voice in the room, but I think continuing to challenge those platforms and push for better tools that aren't just performance helps a lot.
- [20:44]
C
Come on Google, right? Let's get it going. So when you think about and we've been talking a lot about contrarian marketing opinions here obviously with the long and the short of it and just how can we make digital more of a brand play? What's your biggest contrarian marketing opinion?
- [21:11]
A
I think back to my college days. It was that I did and I thought marketing was dumb and I didn't want to do it again. So there. I have lots of like things I've said in my past life about marketing that I've been wrong about. So whatever I say now is probably going to be wrong. It's funny because I, I spoke a little bit against this so I'm Gonna, I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth here a little bit. But like, I think as much as I'm a believer in like statistics and like the rigor that comes with that, like, I'm a huge proponent of a directional test in intuition. And I think the reason why is that everyone gets sometimes too caught up with, like, oh, well, that's not scientific. We can't do that, we can't measure that and you do nothing instead. And I think status quo is the death knell. Especially in our modern world where things are evolving so fast and the consumer preferences are changing so fast that like just try stuff and take big swings too. This is such a ridiculous parallel, but we did some marketing this probably three years ago at this point that was about if you guys follow the NBA at all. And I think every sports league has gone this way that like the three pointer has become the hot strategy because it's a much more high value play and the expected value is actually not bad. And so it's taken over the sport. And so we made a parallel to marketing that was like, take big swings. Even if your big swing has a 10% chance of hitting, let's say it's a 50% lift, which is a bit ludicrous, or even 30% lift, like that's still the expected value. That's pretty good versus testing a different button. And so take big swings, test directionally, trust your intuition a little bit. Still do the scientific rigor for sure, but we get a little too caught up in the nitty gritty. And I think it really can limit action, which to me is the number one correlative attribute to successful brands.
- [22:47]
B
I love that, especially coming from a digital marketer. That's why I think what new engine's doing is so cool. The fact that you're knowledgeable about marketing effectiveness, because that's a marketing effectiveness principle. Taking bold moves or what is it? Peter Weinberg, John Lombardo, they call it like Disney style marketing. But that's great to hear because you're right, especially I would think in digital. People get prone to those small moves. They even do it with tv. And TV in itself is a big move, but we feel that too with the, the small testing mindset. So that's really interesting. Kevin, before we wrap up, anything that we're missing, anything else you wanted to talk about when it has to do with digital or new engine measurement, like, is there anything that you didn't think we got to cover today?
- [23:25]
A
The only like PSA I will make, which I Beat this drum pretty hard. But it's just we should all be intensely preparing for the death of the click. We already should have been doing that and now it's only becoming more and more obvious with AEO and GEO and video and all of these things that just mean you don't have to click and don't have to go to a website necessarily. Even agentic agents on a website that tell you what the page is about, like the new Google thing, I think that's a great thing because I think it's going to force all of us to just throw that era out the window and do good measurement, incrementality based, modeling based. But I think now is a good time to start thinking about how you prepare for that. Probably it's already in your data, your organic search and things like that are falling off or your clicks are falling off. But start building the resilience to be less click obsessed and less traffic obsessed and find new proxies for growth. I say it both as like a warning and a message, but also like I'm kind of excited that it's being forced upon us because I think it's for the best.
- [24:25]
D
There's so much out there with AI and is it going to do more harm or good? That's one. I'm with you on that. Even though it's being forced upon us, I think it's. We're going to end up in a better spot.
- [24:35]
B
It reminds me a little bit of the death of the cookie conversation, which I think we've talked about is maybe a positive thing that marketers can't track. Quite the same. But this one seems a lot more sure that it's going to happen than the cookie going away. Well, let's wrap up with something a little more fun. Kevin, what is your digital obsession? Maybe an app or a platform that you really just get lost in.
- [24:57]
A
This is challenging because I've been trying to declutter my digital life, which is ironic because I work in digital marketing. But I feel like that story is. That's probably a common trope these days. So I've like tried to delete Instagram, turned off Twitter a year or two ago. Unfortunately this is a pretty lame answer, but I'm like very LinkedIn pilled. But I love, like I've learned so much. Like I truly get so much value in it. There's so many, you guys included. Like you guys post great content and there's so much good content. It's research, it's case studies, it's like actionable. Stuff and so I spend a lot of time on there. Could pull my screen, my iPhone screen report after this and maybe share some data on what that looks like. The other is substack where I try to spend more time there. I really like the long form nature of it. It's fun to support smart people who've done their own thing and there's like five or seven folks that I religiously follow and really enjoy and I think it's like a still digital but feels like I'm detoxing a little bit from the short form and the dopamine hit and forces me to focus for longer periods of time. So those are my two. Maybe a cop out answer, but I've been trying to wean off the social a little bit lately.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, no, that's great. And your LinkedIn content is excellent too. And yeah, LinkedIn's interesting place for marketing effectiveness because I think that it is a pretty good spot for you to put opinions out there and they'll immediately be judged by some people who really know a lot about marketing effectiveness. So like, you know, you can see that as a negative thing when Byron Sharp comments on your post and isn't happy, but it's also a good thing because he's keeping us all accountable. You gotta think about who could be coming for my opinion here.
- [26:35]
A
So yeah, every post I put out there I'm like, I actually this would be a good thing to start filtering through ChatGPT. Like what are all the ways that Byron Sharp, Dale Harrison, others could like yeah, disprove your post. So you gotta be ready for it, which I like. It does keep you on your toes.
- [26:50]
B
Yeah, I may or may not have already used that prompt a few times. Ang, what about you? Do you have one?
- [26:57]
D
I, I mean I do. I also had LinkedIn which I also felt was a cop out answer. So I appreciate you saying that Kevin. I love Reddit too. Like I can go deep and spend hours in Reddit related to business, non related to business. And I will also say that TikTok gets a really bad rap in terms of the content that's going to pop up there. But if you're diligent about it, like I feel really strong about my ability to have turned that into a very edutainment platform for myself. Like I learn a lot on TikTok, so you just gotta use it, right?
- [27:29]
C
Gosh, you guys are so focused on learning. I am a huge fan of the Internet movie database IMDb, the app. I will literally open that up while I'm watching A show and it's like I black out and I wake up and it's tomorrow. You know, there's just, there's so many interesting bits of trivia and following the actors and directors profiles of work, I could just, I could do that. I could do that all day.
- [27:57]
B
That's such a Rob answer. This is coming from someone who doesn't have a Facebook, but Rob, I've never even heard of that. So.
- [28:03]
A
Thanks for the recommendation.
- [28:05]
D
IMDb.
- [28:05]
B
Oh gosh, I've heard of IMDb but not. I haven't heard. I didn't know you could go to it for like trivia or stuff like that.
- [28:11]
A
Oh, they've heard of it.
- [28:12]
C
It's fascinating when you go through and you read trivia about the shows and oh, it's the best way to watch a movie. So.
- [28:19]
A
Okay, that's old school. That's. I love that. It's like, that's like early days Internet. How you waste on Internet is IMDb.
- [28:24]
C
Oh, 100 is one of the first websites I probably consumed on a regular basis. And yeah, then they turned into an app and it's like we are forever, you know, partners.
- [28:34]
A
Love it, love it.
- [28:35]
B
Mine's Angie. I was gonna say Reddit. I found myself now I'm. I don't Google much. I'm usually like asking things in chat GPT, but when I am googling, I typically am adding Reddit to the end of my search query because I just find it really helpful like having people's real experiences. And I think it's a really helpful platform and you can also do a good job of filtering like communities you want to be in. And I'm a fan. All right, before we officially wrap up, Kevin, could you tell us a little bit more about where people can follow you and learn more about you and new engine?
- [29:03]
A
Yeah, I'm pretty loyal to just LinkedIn. So I post on LinkedIn. You can search my name, Kevin Goodwin, and it's the guy with the mustache. Hopefully there are no impersonators and I promise I won't change my avatar in the near future. I also write on substack. It's a lot more time consuming, a lot less frequent. That's linked through my LinkedIn and then new engine. It's not probably spelled how you think it's spelled, but we have a website, N E W E N G E n dot com. We also post a lot of great content, case studies, thought leadership on LinkedIn so you can follow us there. But yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to join you guys. It's been fun. I wish I could do this every week that you guys are. Goodbye.
- [29:39]
B
Thank you, Kevin. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And yeah, everyone should go check out new engine. Your agency does a great job marketing itself, too, which funny. Agencies aren't always great at that. But everybody should go go check it out. That's it for this episode of the Marketing Architects. We'd like to thank Taylor de Los Reyes for producing the show. You can connect with us on LinkedIn. And if you like the podcast, please leave us a review. Now go forth and build great marketing Marketing Architects.