A (3:21)

It's fair to question. I think we should always question versus just, you know, blindly trusting something that we're reading, even if it is research. But I think it's important. Marketing effectiveness principles like broad reach or related to TV's unique strengths aren't about rigid one size fits all applications. I think these are foundational truths, they're evidence backed principles that explain how brands grow. But the execution of those principles, I think that's where nuance and category specific thinking can come into play.

B (3:55)

I'm with you. I agree with you. There's been some like article headlines around his work that have been a little bit spicy, like Challenging Aaron Brook Bass and. But a lot of the stuff he's saying I think aligns pretty well with things other marketing effectiveness thought leaders have said. Like Mark Ritzon coined sophisticated mass marketing and that's basically what he's saying. It'd be great. If you're selling toilet paper, you can go out and target everyone. A lot of those brands have the funding to do that. But yeah, if you're a small upstart, if you're a company that's just beginning, I still think starting with these principles in mind is really smart because that's what's going to power your growth in the future. But then you have to look at your budget, your company, your business model and decide like, how can we do this? And for some brands that might just mean when you're setting up your first Facebook campaign, so you're going to keep your targeting broader. Like it doesn't mean, all right, I just founded my company, I'm going to go spend $10 million on TV. That's obviously not realistic for people. So it does depend on your brand. But things like distinctive assets and the stuff we're going to talk about today, I do think that most of it can be applied right away. No matter.

C (5:02)

Absolutely. I mean there's always a difference between a principle versus an indisputable law. Right. It's like these are great points of discussion, great frameworks that we should be looking at. Are there going to be situations where they don't always apply? Of course.

B (5:18)

Well.

A (5:18)

And I think it causes marketers to go, do I know where my brand exists in my category? What market dynamics might be at play? What audience dynamics might be at play if I'm a snacking brand versus a hair restoration brand? Certainly the 95.5rule doesn't apply perfectly to both of those segments. You're willing to buy snacking items a lot more frequently than you are to get a hair restoration. But do you know what your 95.5 is? What percent of your consumers are in market versus out of market and therefore how much long term brands and building future demand for your brand might matter? It's that.

B (6:01)

Agreed. So it's not. It's like knowing the principles, but then it's okay to look at it through a lens of my category, through your phase of growth to apply to your brand. Well, let's get into these principles. So we each came prepared to talk about, I think two each. Hopefully that's what I had in mind for today. So Rob, why don't you get us started? What's your first principle?

C (6:22)

Oh yeah, such a fun one. Distinctive assets. All right, so what are distinctive assets? Distinctive assets. When you think of things that are non verbal brand elements, things like colors and logos and sounds and characters and they really can lead to some really great outcomes. One of those being faster brand recognition. Right. So a distinctive asset is a great hack to, to get someone to remember your brand and when they see it, associate that whatever they're seeing with your brand. I think that sort of pays homage to memory structures. Right. So distinctive assets really help to connect with your mental availability, your memory structures that help you to trigger those brands and those moments when you know someone is at the shelf and needs to decide between two types of tuna and Charlie the tuna wins because he's a distinctive asset. You feel something about it. It helps to break the tie. Also, distinctive assets are fantastic for consistency across multiple channels. Again, one plus one equals three. That's the greatness of marketing. And that's, you know, obviously a key element of distinctive assets. And then Also being able to evoke emotion, which I know we'll talk about more later, but you know, at the end of the day as marketers, that's what we need to be doing. We need to be able to trigger those emotive feelings about a brand so that the brand has more value and distinctive assets. You know, really planned all of those.

B (7:55)

I love the distinctive assets topic. We went through an exercise at the agency looking at our distinctive assets and it ended up leading us to a little bit of a brand update that we didn't originally want to do. But once we saw like the data and the science behind it, we just couldn't help ourselves. And one thing that we learned in that process was it's important to make your distinctive assets neurologically diverse. So it's good to have an audio mnemonic and a color and like packaging if you can, but you don't want to have too many. So Jenny Romanick has this gray, like this distinctive assets grid. And you can decide one side is fame and the other is uniqueness. And you want distinctive assets that are very famous, a lot of people know and recognize them and then very unique in your category. So that's why it's important to look at your competitors. So for us marketing architects, we ended up narrowing in on a couple of distinctive assets like our blue color, our Mobius logo. But it was fun because we got to rank them all on the grid and then sometimes she says you should dump some, you shouldn't have a million distinctive assets cuz you can't maintain as many. So some focus can be good.

C (8:59)

I think that's such a good exercise. I think you, you get so familiar with your brand that you think you're special. And then being able to look at yourself up on the wall with all of your competitors and you're like, holy smokes, maybe we do have to work a little harder to get more distinctive. So yeah, it seem an, an obvious exercise but one but I think few marketers actually spend the time actually going through.

A (9:22)

I'm hitting light buyers along with what that means then from a a broad reach standpoint and the law of double jeopardy. So three in one. So light buyers. One of the most important yet often overlooked I think drivers of growth feels a little counterintuitive for marketers to say, you know what we're really focused on this year is finding people that buy less from us. Like that just doesn't feel like a strong strategy. But the idea is actually pretty simple and that is that most of our brand sales come from light buyers, not heavy buyers. So if you think, just think about the focus of loyalty programs, et cetera, which not aren't necessarily a bad strategy, but they need to be coupled with this principle. Heavy buyers or those more loyal customers who by often are great, but they are a small percentage of your audience. And in order to grow, you really need to consistently reach the light buyers who only purchase occasionally. They may not be loyal, but they represent the largest opportunity for incremental growth. And so it's really important, broad reach. So critical light buyers aren't actively seeking you out. They're not following your social channels, they're not engaging with your loyalty program programs. You have to go to them. And that is where channels like television or just mass channels in general ensure you get in front of those light buyers and they build that mental availability for when they're ready to buy. So then we start to layer in the law of double jeopardy, which is another fundamental principle that ties directly to this. So double jeopardy would be, you know, smaller brands don't just have fewer buyers, they also suffer from lower loyalty as a brand. And so it's sort of a double hit. Fewer people buying and then there's less frequency from those who are buying. So if you want to grow, the solution isn't squeezing more out of your existing customers, it's reaching more people and expanding that customer base. And that's why acquisitions should always take priority over loyalty programs or retention campaigns.

C (11:38)

Holy smokes. That was a lot.

A (11:40)

I know, it's a mind bender. It almost feels like a counterintuitive approach when you think about how to grow. But it's really important. And if you think about your own buying behavior. We've talked about this before. We are not overly loyal. We all have our favorite brands. But I buy Coke, I buy Pepsi. There's a good reason, when you think about your own activity, why light buyers matter.

B (12:04)

This is one of those principles that I think is easy to like, grasp as a marketer, very easy to get as a consumer, but very hard to apply like when the rubber hits the road as a marketer, because our temptation is always to target our ideal customer.

A (12:20)

Well, it feels like optimization, right? You're like, okay, who's buying the most for me now let's learn everything about them. What do they do? How do they think? How old are they? Are they male, they female? How do we go find more of those?

C (12:32)

Well, what's the stat on Coca Cola? Is it something like 95% of their buyers are actually first time buyers? Some ridiculous. It Blew my mind when I heard heard that.

A (12:43)

Yeah, yeah, they have a lot of light buyers love it.

B (12:47)

Great principle and yeah, a couple in one. But they're all kind of related to each other so they belong together. So I will share my first one. I want to talk about one of, if not the most famous marketing effectiveness principle I think which is a 6440 rule. This was popularized by Lesbinette and Peter Field. And let's talk about first, what is it? I'm sure everybody listening pretty much knows, but it's this guideline that roughly 60% of your marketing budget should focus on more long term brand building. It's like emotion, broad reach, campaigns. And the remaining 40% should go towards short term activation, promos, direct response, sales pushes. And this rule matters because it's very easy for us to overallocate budget towards the short term. But it can weaken your brand and cause a reliance on like promos and a bit of like a discount doom loop. But if you can commit a healthy portion of your budget to brand building, you're going to build that trust, familiarity, mental availability so when your customers are in market you don't have to pay extra at the bottom of the funnel to grab them. It's going to make those like short term channels work even better. Now there are a few disclaimers that relate to, I think the Felipe Thomas discussed at the beginning of this episode, which is Field and Bennett. They never claimed that 60:40 is the exact right split. It's a guideline. It's going to depend by your brand's growth stage, what category you're in. But it is generally a good guideline. However, I'll also say dividing your channels between short and long is not easy. We try to do this with our quarterly marketing reports and it's really hard to debate. All right, we went to an event, feels like brand, but we also like paid for meetings feels like Dr. So it's not always easy to separate them. And I have heard more recent arguments that the idea of like long and short as language should just be abandoned since a lot of channels do both. I personally think it's still useful because some channels do build brand a lot easier than others. Like paid search versus TV for example. It's pretty easy to bucket those. So that is it, the 6040 rule.

A (14:42)

Yeah, I think that's a great one to just. Again, you're keeping the principle in mind so that we maybe aren't swayed by the data that's in front of us right now. We all love data and that sales activation of the 40 side of that equation can be really addictive. And yet the 60 matters a lot in mental availability etc and building that future demand. So, yeah, that's a great one.

B (15:09)

Gotta have a balance. Okay, Rob.

C (15:11)

All right. The power of emotion and creativity. And I, I like this one for a lot of reasons. I often think that, you know, emotion and creativity are second cousins, right? I mean, they cut one comes with the other. I don't know. Second cousins. Maybe the wrong analogy there.

A (15:28)

They might be sisters or brothers. Sisters. Yeah, closer than that.

C (15:32)

I think you're right. I think you're right. And obviously, Bennett and Field have written extensively about the use of emotion and creativity in campaigns, that it helps to really drive long less of a brand, that it actually can improve efficiency, which seems crazy to wrap your brain around, but the more memorable your campaign, the less you actually have to spend in terms of media, because the ad is that much more effective, which in some ways is, like, obvious, but then in other ways, it's not really obvious at all. Right? Like, wow, we actually get an ROI when we go increase the creativity and the emotion within an ad. We talked earlier about this as well, with distinctive assets, but it really does help to create and tap into those memory structures. One thing that I thought was really cool is a gentleman by the name that I've mentioned on the podcast before, Roy Williams, the wizard of ads. He actually talks about how increasing the adrenaline in a human makes that experience more memorable. And he applies that to advertising. He actually says that adrenaline is the adhesive of memory, which I think is cool. So how are we, you know, really tapping into the emotive nature of the ad to literally physically make them feel something to increase that adrenaline, which, you know, then triggers the amygdala and makes something that much more memorable? Ultimately, how are you using all of this to make your brand famous? Right, because fame gives you the ability to amplify your brand and give you that disproportionate, proportionate return on everything that you're ultimately spending on. And then there's definitely, as you're making a more memorable campaign, people often go, well, that doesn't really help trigger those immediate responses. But that's not what the research is showing that actually helps to increase activation within a campaign.

B (17:28)

Rob, what's that Bob Dylan quote you love about fame?

C (17:32)

Oh, I just love this quote. I just saw the movie with Timothy Chalamet, Shalom, whatever you say his name. And now I'm pulling this out of my brain right now. So I'll probably Butcher it. But he basically says, I'd rather be beautiful or I'd rather be ugly, but I don't want to be plain.

B (17:51)

Yeah, he said you can be if you want to be famous, you can be beautiful or you can be ugly. You can't be. Can't be average or something like that.

C (17:58)

Yeah, yeah. So just more permission to, you know, be doing it like Bobby Dylan.

B (18:06)

And I think we all kind of gravitate towards, I want my brand to be beautiful. But there's also some pretty famous brands that have built their brand off of being a little bit controversial too, or.

C (18:16)

Right.

B (18:17)

I'm trying to think of a brand that I would like.

C (18:19)

Liquid Death. I was just gonna say that's like the poster child. Right. We've talked about them before, but jeepers, I mean, you're gonna call your. The fluid that gives life, you're gonna talk about it as death. I mean, that's just. It's pretty perfectly contrarian.

B (18:34)

All right, Ange.

A (18:35)

All right, I'm up. I'm covering excess share of voice, commonly seen as esov. It's one of my favorite topics because it's so straightforward and it's so powerful. So the idea is if your share of advertising spend in your category, so your share of voice is greater than your share of market, current share of

B (18:59)

market, you're likely to grow.

A (19:01)

Simple. It's why it's called excess share of voice. It's the extra investment beyond your current market position that is what is fueling growth. But what I think makes ESOB so effective is its scalability. And I think a lot of people would be like, well, I mean, I've got a huge competitor, I just can't play that game. I don't have enough budget. You don't necessarily have to be the biggest spender in your category to leverage it. It's not. Outspending your competitors is one way dollar for dollar to get there. But it really asks marketers to be smart in their investments. Investing in high impact channels, efficiency as a focus, channels like TV and not to toot our own horn, can really give you broad reach and visibility without requiring the same budget as maybe a digital first competitor throwing money at hyper targeting. So TV can work harder for your dollars because it reaches mass audiences, it builds trust and it creates that all important mental availability. So if you want to know the formula, there's a formula for this. And again, this is the principle. It's not going to play out in this case every single time. But research notably by Bennett and Field suggest that on average, every 10% of excess share of voice leads to about a half of a percent growth in market share for a typical brand. So the elasticity factor might vary by category or market conditions or brand size, but generally half a percent is the accepted average. At least it gives you a target to shoot for. Where are you at today? I mean, just measuring your market share as a brand today with so much fragmentation can be hard, but it's not absolute physics. Right.

C (20:49)

It's directionally relevant.

B (20:52)

Yep. And I think if you haven't brought this up to your CEO or CFO as a case for advertising, you should try, because who wouldn't want to grow their market share?

A (21:00)

Absolutely. It's a great way to talk to a cfo. Elena, what's your last one?

B (21:04)

All right, my final principle is mental and physical availability. So these are concepts. They're championed by Byron Sharp, Jenny Romanu, and mental availability is how easily and often your brand comes to mind in buying situations. So when you're thinking, all right, I need xyz, is your brand popping up? Physical availability, on the other hand, is how simple it is for people to find, buy, and use your product or service. So that could be in a store, but it also could be online. And both of these are important because our customers, as we know, don't give us unlimited attention. So they tend to default to brands that are top of mind and easy to buy. And I think we've talked about this before, thinking about your own buying behavior, when you need something, you're probably going to default to what's top of mind. If you only focus on fun ads, but you're out of stock everywhere, you're going to lose. And then if you're in every store but no one recognizes your brand, and I love this, you're just basically wallpaper. If you can combine both mental and physical availability, that's what's going to truly drive growth. And I do have a couple of disclaimers for this one as well. Again, not all categories are identical. So I know Anna talked about this a little bit earlier, but if your customer buys infrequently, then having that consistent brand presence is really important because when they come into market, you want to be first mind no matter when it is. If you have frequent purchases like safe snacks, widespread distribution, recognizable packaging, that can be a big differentiator. And then also just a disclaimer, maintaining mental and physical availability. It's an ongoing job. That's why we see brands on TV that we all know really well, like a Coca Cola, Pepsi like, why are they on tv? Everybody knows about them, but everybody knows about them because they continue to advertise. You have to keep re earning your attention and your shelf space as new competitors enter your category or consumers just change their habits. I know I said this earlier, but I love this phrase. You want to be first to mind and easy to buy.

A (22:56)

First to mind and easy to buy. Great principle to live by.

C (22:59)

I love the re earn. I think that's. That's a great way to put it. Gotta re earn that spot.

A (23:04)

Well, this is a space that didn't get a lot of. I mean, if you think about just the explosion of D2C brands and all of the energy around that everyone was so excited about, like, oh, my gosh, I don't have to go to a store. I can buy everything online. All the e commerce focus, which is fine, but it has its limitations. And now you see a lot of those D2C disruptor brands. We would have called them back in the day, guess what, Throwing up brick and mortar. And now they're on the shelf at Target.

B (23:32)

And that's why I was gonna say the most successful DTC brands today have physical availability. So a lot of those other ones are just gone that were only operating online. So if you can have both, you probably need both. All right, so to close today, those are all the, like, marketing effectiveness principles we're gonna cover. I think that was a pretty good summary. I wanted us to share kind of a personal or professional kind of guiding principle that's important to you. So, Rob, why don't you get us started here?

C (24:00)

Well, I've got a twofer, two for the price of one. The first one is don't record podcasts after 3pm that's my first one. But no, I am a huge fan of a gentleman by the name of David Allen, who wrote one of the great books out there called Getting Things Done. And he has a principle which is the mind is for having ideas, not keeping ideas. And his whole principle is about getting stuff out of your head, writing it down and into a trusted system. And. And I just. I can't speak more highly of Mr. Allen and what is affectionately known in the nerd world as gtd.

B (24:44)

That's a great one. And Rob, you know that I think you're unique as a creative because you are one of the most, like, organized and like, operationally excellent people that I know. And it probably helps you be more creative because you like creating systems and tracking.

C (24:56)

And I need all the help I can get.

A (24:58)

Rob is. He is an engine for systems. He has a system to create systems. It's unbelievable.

B (25:06)

Yeah, we should have, like, an episode on that. That might be helpful, because I do use Rob. I use the getting things done framework. And you introduced that to me when I started here, like, five, six years ago. And I still use it for all my daily tasks like that. The take action, waiting kind of the buckets that you have tasks in. That's how I organize my day.

C (25:23)

If you steal from me, you stolen twice. Because that's Mr. Allen.

A (25:27)

Just resourceful.

B (25:29)

So good. All right.

A (25:29)

You want to go, Elena, or you want me to?

B (25:31)

You can go.

A (25:32)

So I thought about this, and one that I feel like I'm sharing with my kids a lot. Must be important to me. And it shows up in my life, too. And that's just to leave gaps in your plans. It sounds counterintuitive versus, like, having everything always figured out. But, like, leave room for spontaneity or even chaos to guide potentially unexpected success paths, I think is important in your professional life and your personal life. More often than not, when those shifts are happening, they don't feel great at the time, but in the end, a lot of times it plays out in your favor. So that'd be mine.

C (26:11)

That's such a good one. And I think it's hard in a world where you always have a phone. You always have the ability to be doing something right at any given moment. And how do you give yourself that space for serendipity? That's a great one.

B (26:26)

That's hard to do as, like, control freaks. Where we like to have our whole life plan.

C (26:31)

Yes.

A (26:31)

Everything all planned out. Every T is crossed and I is dotted.

B (26:35)

Yep.

C (26:35)

So we got a nice yin and yang there between GTD and. Hey, just chill out a little bit. So this is good. Take us home, Elaine.

B (26:42)

Yeah, mine, I don't know. Mine's more philosophical. I don't know where I originally heard this phrase, but life is an echo. So whatever you send out there comes back. I try to remind myself of that. If you're in a situation that feels unfair or if you're like, oh, this isn't happening the way I want it to, if you're sending out good things, you're working hard, you're being nice, it might not right away seem like it's coming back, but it always does. It's kind of like karma. I definitely believe in that. And things just seem to come back around no matter what in some way.

A (27:08)

Great one.

C (27:09)

That's a really good one.

A (27:10)

So true.

B (27:11)

Well, there we go. It's a good place to wrap it up. That's it for this episode of the Marketing Architects. We'd like to thank Taylor De Los Reyes for producing the show. You can connect with us on LinkedIn. And if you like the podcast, please leave us a review. Now go forth and build great marketing.

A (27:29)

Second podcast of the day at 3pm Our issue, Taylor, will be that we can't talk.

B (27:37)

We survived.

C (27:39)

Sorry. I did just totally. My brain just started going, where am I?

B (27:44)

Yeah, Rob was not firing on all cylinders for that. Rob's like, I don't know where I am. Marketing Architects.