A (2:40)

Over it? I think the first thing to recognize and just to call attention to seems sort of obvious, but we control what we consistently put into the environment, but we don't control what people can remember. And I think that matters because brand is. Is really just that memory, right? Memory gets built through that repetition, through things like distinctive cues that we talk about here on the podcast a lot through real experiences that people actually have with your brand. So as marketers, we try to micromanage this perception, but I think it's better to focus on how do we engineer the probability that you come to mind in a buying situation and the probability that when someone engages with you, the experience confirms what you promised. We don't remember when the experience confirms what we promised. We just go about our day. We definitely remember when the experience doesn't confirm what the brand promised. We can all think of those situations. I had a terrible experience with an apparel brand over Christmas that I loved and had spent a lot with three middle school teenage girls and man, it just destroys it. So, you know, that kind of control in terms of what you do own for your brand doesn't come from a better tagline or color or logo or whatever. Right? It's your system design, I think fewer handoffs, less friction in the customer journey, fewer surprises. If you actually want brand consistency, you need that experience consistency as well. And that's cross functional across the business. Business. It's not just marketing.

C (4:15)

Those are great points, Ange. And your examples really tied to the experience with the brand itself and how that reinforces those things. I do think as marketers, though, going to this existential question that you're asking Elena, we have a freaking terrifying amount of control on what happens between people's ears. And you know, we are in. You guys have seen Inception, the movie Inception. Christopher. No, we are in the Inception business. We are planting dreams inside people's heads and thinking about the old mirror neurons. Monkey see, monkey do. We're showing people sitting in a first class seat in a TV commercial and they're drinking their club soda with that lime. We as humans experience that, you know, we are experiencing the brand even though we are not touching the brand. So we have an incredible amount of control, an incredible amount of responsibility. Then getting to Angela's point, the brand's got to deliver. But we definitely can make people feel the end benefit of the products before they ever touch it.

B (5:21)

Yeah. So marketing can definitely set an expectation of what a brand is going to be. And like you said, Rob, that could be a great thing or a bad thing. So Angie gave that example of being disappointed by a brand. What happens when the expectation set by marketing doesn't match reality in this poor way? Like where do we think that tends to happen most often?

A (5:44)

I think it breaks down in really predictable places. It's not super shocking. It's in the speed of delivery, whether or not you get the product at all. In my case, friction gaps like I talked about, inability to process a return, bad onboarding, customer service doesn't match the promise. It's quality gaps where something looks great in the advertisement but then feels cheap or it's confusing or it's frustrating when you actually use it. So it's like these fine print gaps where pricing or fees or exclusion show up later and just create this distrust and this lack of alignment on what you thought it should be. Could also be things like products not in stock. That can be really frustrating. It's not necessarily that the product was bad or the quality was bad, but you're just like, I just can't get it.

C (6:34)

No. I heard a term that made me laugh out loud on this topic, which is corporate catfishing. You guys ever heard that?

A (6:40)

I have not heard that.

C (6:41)

That's kind of funny. And I think we've all felt that, especially dealing with ads we see in social media where the promises get pretty big and you really get let down. And those tend to be high volume churn models. Right. They're just trying to get people in. But those are doom loops. Right? They're pulling in people. At some point everyone has a disappointing experience. They drop out and then at some they just dissolve. There's no long term marketing play there. I think the other side of it is actually in an. In an opportunistic way. Don't promise to be the Ritz. If you're running a Motel 6, you can be an amazing Motel 6. Like celebrate and deliver. The value that you can offer someone is being in a really clean, affordable, amazing place to stay. But don't try to be the Ritz if you're not the Ritz.

B (7:33)

Yeah. So part of that is just understanding what your brand actually is.

C (7:37)

Can you understand the floor? Like what's your minimal viable promise that you can offer your customer? And then every. And then measure your marketing against that just to make sure you're not overdoing it or you're not underdelivering at the same time in terms of what you can do for your audience.

B (7:53)

So sometimes there's this sort of mismatch between marketing and reality. Not because marketing wants to promote an inferior product or a bad customer experience, but sometimes because marketing can get disconnected from the product or the product experience and can't really improve it. So why do we think marketers often over index on things like comms and advertising and positioning, but tend to under index on things like product and customer experience?

A (8:20)

I think part of it is just the system design. The comms is, is what we own as marketers. The customer experience is something we might be able to influence, but the campaigns, the messaging, the media is our lane. Fixing product or service issues is either not our responsibility at all or it's slower, it's more political, it's cross functional and communication is easier to measure I think in the short term so it feels safer. And that's our job too. Again, back to engineering probabilities. We do want to come to mind, we do want that experience to be represented and however we talk about the brand and so that's where we focus.

C (8:58)

Yeah. Just to echo what you're saying, I love the old joke, a drunk guy is looking for his keys under a street light. Guys hear this. One cop comes up to him and says, did you lose your keys over here? And the guy goes, no, I lost him in the park. But the light is better here. And I think as marketers, us focusing on what we feel good about, like what these are the levers that we have. But fixing a product experience, holy smokes, that's hard, right? Getting in with your design team, understanding how to deliver for the customer is just messy work. So yeah, we're going to retreat to the things that we know that are easy. But trying to fix the product through how you talk about the product is a, that's a tough game.

B (9:37)

Yeah, I think that's. It's hard because I know, I hear a lot that marketing needs to become more involved in product. Like market needs to get deeper into the business. And I can go along with that to an extent because comms does take a lot of time. Like advertising the business, like that's an important responsibility too. So you're right, it's like that some of that is on, on others and. But I think it's nice when marketing can bring insights. It can drive product and changes and has a voice in the room. But yeah, putting all that responsibility on Marketing seems like a whole lot of work. All right, so the theme for this episode is fun, like, thinking about, like, where does brand actually take place? Does it take place in the message people hear when they open the box, when they try a product, when they go into a store? So there's all these different moments where people can experience your brand. If we had to optimize for one moment where brand actually happens, where would it be?

A (10:27)

This was a hard one for me because where it actually happens, I easily go to product just because I think of all of those examples in my life where the product or the brand didn't deliver. And at the same time, that's really loyalty. And we've talked about what's the key to growth and broad reach and new customers and light buyers. And so we know that chasing loyalty in terms of how to grow a brand is sort of a fool's game. We're not loyal because of that. Customer acquisition is so important. And so when I think about where to optimize, it would be at that mental availability and driving that moment of choice, the shelf. It could be the search results page, the dealership lot, the app that they choose in the App Store. That's where all the work either pays off or it doesn't. That's where those memory structures, those distinctive assets hopefully cash out for the brand. Because in that moment, people aren't analyzing your positioning statement. They're just scanning and they're deciding really quickly. And so for me, brand happens most powerfully at that point where that attention and that top of funnel awareness turns into action.

C (11:34)

I'm going to make a plug for one that people probably don't think about when you think about optimizing that brand moment, and that is sound. All right, go with me for a second here. Apple Pay. You all have used Apple Pay. I am literally handing money over when I use Apple Pay, but it makes the most rewarding sound. I feel like I won. I feel like I just got points in a video game. They have branded that sound. It is in my neural network and in what a great branding opportunity that people don't think about. And there's so many places that sound show up in a brand. If you're a retail store, what's it. What's the sound of your door when it opens? You know, all those Pavlov dog type reactions that we can use with sound. So making a plug for that does feel good though, doesn't it? When you use that Apple Pay, you just. And it gives you that little vibrate.

B (12:29)

I was Going to say I like that feeling too. Like when the phone kind of vibrates.

A (12:33)

Like it's also fun.

C (12:34)

Yes, yes. It doesn't go, you know, it doesn't make you go. Like you feel like you're losing something, you feel like you're winning.

B (12:42)

Just so many opportunities for thinking about all the different ways people interact with your brand and different sounds, even like smells, makes me think about how in the super bowl we were talking about how there were so few sonic logos at the end of spots. Like, what a missed opportunity to have

C (12:56)

some sort of brand sound when you walk. Not, not a sound related, but another scent. When you walk into a Weston, what happens?

B (13:03)

I haven't been in a Weston in a long time.

C (13:05)

Oh, Rob, the smell, is it cookie of a Weston?

A (13:08)

Okay.

C (13:09)

Oh, oh, sorry. The smell. I mean, you walk into a Westin in anywhere in the country and they smell the same and it's not. It doesn't smell like a locker room. They actually sell the smell. You can go online and buy like essential oils that are knockoffs of the Weston smell. So the sense is great branding.

B (13:28)

That's really cool.

A (13:29)

It is. It's proving my point though. Like what gets me into the West End so that I can smell it.

C (13:35)

That's true. I'm thinking more that branded opportunity once you're there and what you can add to it. But you're right, that's not going to get you into.

A (13:42)

Follow my nose through the hotels. There are probably some that deter me. I don't know, I don't have to go there, but.

B (13:51)

All right, well, speaking of that, Ang, and like that top of funnel, those moments before somebody goes in person to experience your brand. There are ways that marketers can connect our brand experiences across channels, online and in person in smooth ways. And of course, we think that TV is very great at doing this, at making those connections between seeing a brand for the first time and experiencing it. So, Ang, how do you think the broad awareness, the familiarity that a channel like TV delivers, how does that change the way people then experience a brand later?

A (14:23)

Yeah, for sure, TV builds familiarity at scale. There's a lot of channels that can build familiarity, but. And that really matters because it reduces that perceived risk. Especially in a channel like television, when people see you over and over in a trusted high reach environment, you just start to feel more known. So when they encounter you later, whether that be in a store, could be in the search results, could be on a website, that moment is faster. They're not stopping to evaluate from scratch. They just recognize you and that recognition carries over into other channels too. People search more, they click more, they convert more, because the brand already feels familiar. So TV isn't usually the purchase moment in itself. Sometimes it is, sometimes it drives that initial awareness and immediate purchase. But TV is what makes the purchase super easy. Familiar brands don't have to explain themselves on the shelf. That's the beauty of a channel like television to, to push that power.

B (15:20)

So speaking of tv, Rob, there has to be kind of some creative best practices here, right? Like how do you accurately represent products and services, but also make an emotional, compelling spot that drives people to want to purchase your product or service?

C (15:35)

Nothing new here. This is as classic as Advertising101, which is just remembering the difference between features and benefits, right? Feature is what the product does, benefit is what it does. For me, classic example, this drill bit is made of tungsten carbonite. If that's a thing, the benefit is the drill bit creates a quarter inch hole. Right? But as marketers, we have to go way beyond that, right. To emotionally connect. So this drill allows you to hang a shelf to please your spouse and to finally sit on that couch and drink a beer and watch football and feel like a real man. So that's the benefit of, sorry, I don't know any of those things, but I'm assuming that's what I don't. But anyway, so obviously just really leaning into recognizing what the features are. Of course. Right. How are we going to differentiate ourselves but then really celebrating the benefits of that. It's as old as advertising, but it's so forgotten.

B (16:41)

One thing I was wondering when thinking about this topic was you've been involved with a lot of TV commercials over a lot of years. Have you ever seen marketers do a really good job of bridging, like the TV commercial with their in person experience?

C (16:56)

Oh, yeah. Obviously one of the favorites out there. Who doesn't love the Snickers campaign? And when they talked about you're not you when you're hungry. Such a great campaign. And they actually took that so far as to rename the candy bars on the shelf like Grumpy or Whiny or Spacey. Like, what a great way to, to bring the brand into the shelf from some really great advertising that was done. And there's a lot of other ones. Domino's did a great one years ago where they talked about the importance of having good streets in order to deliver your pizza because you don't want pizza to shake and whatnot. So they made a really funny campaign out of that. They Actually went around America and filled potholes. And they put the Domino's. Yeah. And they put the Domino's logo into. I don't know how they got a permit to do that, but, hey, that was great. So, yeah, lots of great ways.

B (17:49)

It's a really.

C (17:50)

An invitation to have fun. Right. And go. How do you take your media message and bring it home in a fun and surprising way? In retail, where people are making their purchase decisions.

B (18:01)

No, that. That's funny. The Domino's campaign. I didn't remember that, but as soon as you described it, like, oh, they. I think that also makes it really memorable when you can, like, bridge both mediums. All right, to wrap us up here, do we have a favorite example of how a brand's in person experience? Their product experience felt really well connected to their brand personality. You know, their distinctive assets. Any best in class examples?

A (18:25)

Yeah, I loved this one. It was obvious. For me, it's Disney.

B (18:28)

I knew you were gonna say Disney.

A (18:29)

I do know. You guys know me well. We're a big Disney family, but they're just the gold standard.

B (18:35)

Yeah.

A (18:36)

In my head. Of turning brand into experience, when you pay attention, especially you see how they engineer every detail to deliver that. And Disney's had a rough go recently related to injuries. I mean, the cruises they lost a kid over. I still trust them. They have this optimism and, like, magic and safety to them that they do really well. And they do it really well in person, too. Obviously, there's millions of people filtering through their ecosystem.

B (19:06)

But I was thinking about Disney, too, but I knew you were gonna take that one. But even the first time I opened the Disney plus app, that felt magical, the way they have the Tinkerbell thing. The first time I opened it, I felt like it was very, very Disney. That's like the power of a great brand that they can go through all these different things and. Yeah, it's just amazing the feeling you get when you think of Disney.

C (19:27)

That's a funny one to me because I totally agree. And it also violates itself when it goes from the Disney logo to. To a banner of Deadpool and you're like, how does that happen?

B (19:38)

There's been some disconnect. I'm even wondering, because aren't they going to combine, like, Disney plus and Hulu is there? And I wonder how that's going to feel.

C (19:47)

It's. Yeah, it's a bit of a mashup, but you can see why they do it. But I mean, holy smokes, you talk about an IP mashup between Star Wars And Marvel and Disney, and you're like, but yes, that opener is. Just makes your heart happy.

A (20:01)

Totally.

C (20:03)

Gosh. I think that vehicle manufacturers do a really good job of trying to bridge that experience, both in how they talk about their car from the commercial all the way into the showroom and beyond. For me, I've always talked about it endless times on here, but I think Jeep does a great job of that. They hide Easter eggs even in their product themselves. I know a lot of cars are starting to do that now, but you can find little hidden Jeep symbols, and they call their loyalty program the Wave, which is something all Jeep owners do. So I think Jeep has always had a great brand that extends beyond just the commercials. How about you, Elena?

B (20:42)

Mine was hard. I was thinking Disney in my head, but mine's a newer brand that I like a lot, which is Aloe Yoga. And I experienced this in person with them, so I. I like their clothes. I'd never gone into a store, but we were walking through a local mall in Minnesota, and I saw the Aloe store, and they're known for sort of. They're like big color blocks. Like, they have this brown color people really like in a green color. And I think of them as being, like, very consistent in their coloring. And when we walked by, it was the beginning of February, and the whole store was, like, red. Like, just the whole front and cool. It just felt so connected to when I'm on their website and just the experience of their product, like, these big, bold colors. And I don't know, I thought that was a cool brand experience because not everyone wants to buy red clothes, but it felt very, like, in tune with them, and it definitely caught my attention. So I think they're a fun brand to. To watch, too. Good competitor to Lululemon, I think. All right, great. That was a fun topic. I think that it's fun to think about different opportunities for. How can our brand show up, like, offline and in person? How can we bridge it and make those connections? Because clearly, I think that it does have an ability to help you remember a brand and in a different sort of way when there's really good cohesion there.

A (21:56)

Absolutely. It all matters.

B (21:59)

That's it for this episode of the Marketing Architects. We'd like to thank Taylor Delos Reyes for producing the show. You can connect with us on LinkedIn. And if you like the podcast, please leave us a review. Now go forth and build great marketing. Marketing Architects.