STREAM TV EUROPE UNPLUGGED

Summary

The Media Odyssey Podcast — “STREAM TV EUROPE UNPLUGGED” (April 23, 2026)

Hosts: Evan Shapiro & Marion Ranchet
Guest: Denis Aster (Editor-in-Chief, Vee, formerly Vida)
Location: Live from Stream TV Europe, Lisbon

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Media Odyssey dives into key takeaways from the inaugural Stream TV Europe conference in Lisbon. Hosts Evan Shapiro and Marion Ranchet offer their signature blend of insightful commentary and wit as they recap the event, unpack newly released research on European media consumption, and explore industry trends with special guest Denis Aster of smart TV platform Vee. Topics covered include the power of the living room, shifting audience behaviors, the rise of streaming, fragmentation vs. aggregation, collaboration among industry titans, and the thorny issue of measurement and monetization in a rapidly evolving landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stream TV Europe: Energy and Significance

• Event Vibes & Venue Importance [00:32–01:38]:
  Marion highlights the fresh energy of hosting in Lisbon and the draw of a diverse, senior audience for a first-time conference.

  • “Lisbon, amazing. I think it’s very important... to have an event in Lisbon... super important.” — Marion [00:54]

• Collaboration and Optimism:
  Evan notes the surprising sense of optimism and willingness for action, contrasting it to the usual “group therapy” at industry events.

  • “It feels like there’s more complaining than action... but this felt like progress here.” — Evan [10:20]

2. Changing Audience Patterns: The Living Room’s Enduring Power

• Release of Major European Media Survey [01:38–04:25]:
  • Marion shares insights from a partnership with RTL/Ad Alliance—a survey across Europe, the US, and China, with new data from Hungary and China.
  • Key Findings:
    • 83% of Europeans watch video content on big living room screens.
    • 68% of 18–34-year-olds value co-viewing with family/friends.
    • Ad recall is 23% higher in living room viewing.
    • “Share” viewing is more powerful than expected, challenging the idea of fragmentation.
    • Viewing patterns differ by platform: Netflix = couples/twos, YouTube = solo, BVOD/TV = larger groups/families. [04:25]
    • “The prominence of the living room for Europeans… was surprising to me.” — Marion [02:50]

3. Fragmentation vs. Aggregation: Who Will Win?

• Panel Highlights & Industry Strategy [05:29–07:18]:

  • Marion details a panel on whether media is heading toward “super fragmentation” or “super aggregation.”

  • Players like TF1, Samsung TV, and Telenet are all jockeying to become audience entry points—aggregators that simplify the viewer experience.

  • “Are we going towards super fragmentation or super aggregation?” — Marion [05:34]

• Corporate Collaboration Examples:

  • Mention of major partnerships (Netflix + TF1, Amazon + France Télévisions) showing that working together is now industry norm.

4. Major Moments & Notable Quotes

• Creators & Big Brands: Blueprint for Collaboration [06:32–08:19]:

  • Evan’s panel with TF1 and Gaspard G., a 28-year-old French news creator, showcases how giant broadcasters can think like creators.
  • “I hoped to accomplish… a blueprint for how big platform brands... can act like a creator, think like a creator, and collaborate with creators.” — Evan [06:32]
  • Gaspard’s production team (“20 people plus 40 contractors”) challenges misperceptions about creators being just “kids in a living room.” — Marion [07:27]

• Sports Rights: Broadcasters vs. Platforms [08:19–10:14]:

  • Kaze TV Live Mode broadcasting 104 FIFA World Cup matches—double the games of Globo. Video highlights may become more valuable than live rights due to time zone mismatches and sheer volume.
  • US demand is massive—tickets sold out in major cities.

5. Shift in Industry Attitude & Generational Change [10:20–14:59]

• New Willingness to Experiment:
  • Major players no longer resist, but now “lean in” to social video and new distribution models.
  • “They discovered that there was no resisting it anymore. You had to lean in and at least test and learn.” — Evan [12:23]
• Leadership Generational Shift:
  • Noted by Evan and Marion as key to optimism and new directions.
  • “I think the generational shift in leadership has to be part of that.” — Evan [14:59]

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Featured Guest Interview: Denis Aster (Vee)

Introduction to Vee [15:21–16:40]

• A smart TV OS spun out from Hisense, present on 50 million TVs globally, with major reach in Europe, LatAm, and Southeast Asia. US market entry is planned.

Breaking Down Measurement Silos: “V Index” [16:48–21:32]

• The Problem:

  • Current measurement splits TV viewing into “ratings” for linear and “impressions” (CPMs) for streaming—valuing the same eyeballs vastly differently.
  • This mismatch threatens future funding for content creators.
  • “If you do the math… eight to ten times less is what we value the same eyeballs on the same TV at the exact same time… because it’s coming through a different signal.” — Denis [17:18]
  • “If we continue to value the same eyeballs this way, we’re not going to have money for people that are creating content.” — Denis [18:23]

• The Solution:

  • Vee launches V Index—a unified, open measurement system fusing data from both broadcast and streaming on smart TVs.

  • Invites other OS providers and industry participants to co-develop and share data for an effective industry-wide standard.

  • “Anyone can contribute. Let’s figure out how we can make the measurement system on a TV better than it is right now.” — Denis [19:07]

• Barriers to Adoption:

  • Other OEMs and industry actors are hesitant, still siloing data and wary of open collaboration.
  • “There’s a little bit of a distrust… People think that their data might be better than ours… But we need a universal standard.” — Denis [21:32]

Data Trends Revealed by Vee [24:58–28:15]

• Dominance of Global Platforms:

  • Netflix and YouTube are even more dominant than perceived, but broadcast still commands about half of total TV consumption in Europe.

  • “Streaming is picking up… But if you look at the attention that streaming is getting compared to broadcast, broadcast is still strong.” — Denis [25:13]

• Demographics & Regional Insights:

  • Europe lags in streaming due to older population and strong public broadcasters.
  • Africa (“super young, skipped generations”) and South America show explosive growth in streaming, especially directly to TV.

• FAST Channel Strategy (“Culling the Herd”):

  • Vee reduced its channel lineup from 100 to 80+ channels and increased average viewing time by 20%. Less clutter, more engagement.
  • “Fewer channels, more engagement. Like the paradox of choice…” — Denis [27:34]

• Role of Editor-in-Chief [28:15–29:23]:

  • Denis curates every channel, auditing for quality, appropriateness, and promotional opportunities—with a newsroom-like editorial ethos.

Monetization & Platform Model [29:23–31:24]

• Vee does not sell ads directly.
  • Partners with major broadcasters (e.g., TF1, Canal Plus) allowing them to sell Vee’s inventory at premium, benefiting content creators and preserving value.
  • “If we are giving our inventory to them, they’re able to benchmark that inventory to their own inventory and they’re able to sell it at a premium.” — Denis [30:37]

Hot Take: Vertical Video on TV [32:19–34:40]

• Denis is skeptical.

  • Vertical video (think TikTok) is intensely personal—works for phones, not living rooms.

  • “The way that we consume content on a small screen is super personalized. I don’t get my family to watch… these videos.” — Denis [33:12]

  • Vertical video’s “private” nature does not fit the communal nature of big-screen viewing; short-form may succeed only in new genres or via new presentation styles.

  • “Vertical premium TV is going to be a thing, but it’s going to be on the phone... not for the couch, it’s for the toilet.” — Evan [34:34–34:40]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:32] — Conference vibe, Lisbon as host city
• [01:38] — Key research on European media habits
• [04:25] — Viewing trends by platform (Netflix, YouTube, TV/BVOD)
• [05:34] — Panel on fragmentation vs. aggregation
• [06:32] — Broadcasts adopting creator mindsets
• [08:19] — Live sport rights revolution (FIFA/World Cup)
• [10:20] — Need for positivity and action in media industry
• [12:23] — Generational and attitudinal shift in leadership
• [15:21] — Interview with Denis Aster begins
• [16:48] — V Index: aims and industry proposal
• [24:58] — Viewing trends and regional differences
• [27:19] — Reducing channels increases engagement
• [29:29] — Monetization via partners, not direct ads
• [32:19] — Debate: Vertical video’s place on TV screens
• [34:34] — Final verdict: vertical content is for phones, not TVs

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Memorable Quotes

• “We don’t want to go to the same cities across the region... The vibe was amazing. Everyone is super happy.” — Marion [01:00]
• “Ad recall is 23% higher within the living room.” — Marion [03:35]
• “I cannot understand and draw any decision strategy from that because it is a lot of fragmented data.” — Marion [23:33]
• “We need to make sure that five years down the road, the people that are producing content are going to get paid the way they should.” — Denis [22:01]
• “Fewer channels, more engagement. Like the paradox of choice.” — Denis [27:37]
• “Vertical premium TV is going to be a thing, but it’s going to be on the phone… it’s not for the couch, it’s for the toilet.” — Evan [34:34]

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Conclusion

Shapiro and Ranchet’s coverage of Stream TV Europe highlights the continued importance of communal, co-viewing experiences amid digital fragmentation, the power of cross-industry partnerships, and the urgent need for unified measurement standards. Guest Denis Aster pulls back the curtain on Vee’s vision for platform neutrality, smarter content curation, and their industry-wide call for data transparency with the V Index—while collectively, the conversation brims with cautious optimism about media’s evolving landscape.

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For further insights, the full episode is recommended for those interested in the future of European streaming, content measurement, and everything that makes today’s media scene both chaotic and thrilling.

Transcript

[A]

The slowest to adapt to streaming are Boomers and Xers. And they are a disproportionate share of the population here compared to the rest of the world.

[B]

Since the oldest guy on this pod. But yeah.

[A]

Okay, I have sunglasses on.

[B]

Welcome to the Media Odyssey podcast.

[A]

That is Evan Shapiro and that is Marianne Ranchette.

[B]

We're live from Stream TV in Lisbon. We loved it. It's been a big few days, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's an inaugural edition of Stream TV Europe. I think the. We surpassed attendance expectations and vibe check. What did you think?

[B]

Vibe check. Lisbon, amazing. I think it's very important, number one, to have an event in Lisbon, number two.

[A]

Well, that was my idea, so I will take credit for. Yes.

[B]

I don't like when things are coming from me. So yeah, I think the fact that it's a European event, number one, super important. Lisbon, important as well, because you need to find places that are attracting people. We don't want to go to the same cities, you know, across, across, across the region. So that was a big draw. And yeah, I mean, I'm excited. The vibe was amazing. Everyone is super happy. I think everyone was surprised that, you know, the team managed to bring so many diverse and senior people in this first edition. So.

[A]

Well, you programmed, you had a session that you programmed called a workshop, which was amazing. Thank you. And you had a great curated panel list there. You also gave this great report at the beginning of it. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I was a jealous. Because it was so insightful. But you did a survey, you commissioned or you worked with another team to do a survey.

[B]

So this is actually, there's a little pen here which is. It's a living room. It's a sofa. It's a partnership with RTL. At alliance, we commission a survey. We surveyed 15k people across European territories, the US and China. China was new new country in Europe, Hungary, and they've been doing this for a few years now. But we teamed up to, I think amplify, you know, the release of the report and have a bit more than just data, but, you know, making sure that you could have a read on, on, on that data.

[A]

You talk about some of the revelations that came out of it because there was, I mean, it was overall about where people watch when they share content. What did you find that was most interesting to you?

[B]

So, number one, the prominence of the living room for Europeans, you know, by large. So 83% of European are watching video content. And you know, by that we mean any sort of video content on the big screen in the living room. One of the stats that I think I loved the most was, and that was surprising to me, it was that 68% of Europeans age 18 to 34 value watching, co viewing, co watching with, you know, family, friends within the living room. And the premise of the report, we really focused on how this is a place where people connect at a point in time where, you know, there's a lot of conflicts in the world, there's a lot of fragmentation. It really felt like this was a place where people could connect, enjoy content. And what matters right at the end of the day is the impact it has on the amount of people watching. So we had data on the coviewing index of titles watched in the UK in 2025. But what matters is that the ad recall is 23% higher within the living room. So all of those things are showing that, yes, we're doing a lot of things on our phones, but there's a bit of that fatigue and people want to reconnect. So I think that was exciting.

[A]

And they want to share, they want to view with other people. That was, you know, I'm not surprised that people watch TV together, but I was surprised at the numbers, the size, the share of people who say they are usually watching with other folks. That was amazing.

[B]

And it was interesting to see how, because what we were. The premise was also, we don't want to talk about just fragmentation. We were focused on what is bringing not just the viewers together, but the industry. And there's room for everyone. Everyone is serving a different need. And when you look at, for example, we had data on, so Netflix, it's very much a couple or two people watching a thing. YouTube was more solo viewing TV at large and BVOD was more family, group of people five and more, et cetera. So everything is here for a reason. And that pushes the ultimate premise was to say that's why people are working together. And so we spoke about why all of those deals happen in Europe. May that be Netflix and TF1, Amazon and France d' ET very much, everyone playing each other's strengths. And yes, it's fragmented, but we're pushing, and especially in Europe, I think we're pushing the boundaries to say we can do great stuff together.

[A]

Cool. What was your favorite panel other than your own?

[B]

Well, I have to say this was about a similar topic on. We were looking at 2030, but it could have been 2040 or plus, are we going towards super fragmentation or super aggregation? And So I had TF1 on the panel, I had Samsung with Benedict Frey from Samsung tv, we had Vincent Stevens from Telenet. And it was interesting to see each of these guys are making moves to be an entry point, right? To be the aggregator, someone who's making your life easy as a viewer. And everyone has its own strength and weaknesses. And I pitted Vincent and Bene a bit against each other because, you know, they're very much fighting for, you know, that being that entry point. We talked about the Netflix TF1 deal. So it's going to be early summer release. It's going to be interesting to see, you know, what that looks like. But no. So that was really cool. I really love that one.

[A]

Yeah. I was lucky enough to have TF1 on stage as well. That was a good panel. Right. So that was me, Pedro Pina from YouTube Again, bring our band back together. But Julian from TF1, who runs digital there, and Gaspard G, who is this amazing young French news creator and talked about the collaboration between TF1 and Gaspar G. And what I hoped to accomplish there was to give everybody a blueprint for how big platform brands like TF1, the biggest broadcaster in France, the biggest news organization in France, can act like a creator, think like a creator and collaborate with creators. And Gaspar G, he's a really impressive.

[B]

Yeah, he was really good, like. And it was. It could. It was interesting to hear no one peeping when he said that he had what, a 50 people team?

[A]

20 people.

[B]

Yeah, 20 people plus 40 contractors, et cetera. It's again, because there's still a bit of that. Oh, it's just kids, you know, in the living room. And you said he started at 10, so he's been doing this for 18 years. I think he's earned the right to be considered a professional creator and not just, you know, an influencer or whatever. I really love that you did that because I think, and this is something that was said during my morning, that the UK is often at the forefront of a lot of the changes that we're seeing. I think it's a bit of a language thing. A lot of the US companies, when they go next, whether that's a Netflix or YouTube trying to expand, they always go to the UK because same language. And so there's a bit of that UK versus continental Europe. And someone said that outside of the UK, we didn't see a lot of partnership with YouTube. And clearly that wasn't true.

[A]

Yeah. And then later, actually today I had Kaze TV Live Mode on. So Live Mode is a live sports broadcaster on YouTube. But they're going to have 104 FIFA World cup matches this year in Brazil, twice the amount that Globo, the national broadcaster, is going to have. And they're going to be broadcasting 34 matches here in Portugal as well. That was another, I think, really kind of revelatory discussion on where live sports is now becoming a creator outlet. Not just, you know, vlogging or any other kind of direct to camera stuff.

[B]

And regarding World cup, what's. You may not know that because it's the round football, but there's never been that many teams. Right. It's going to be a lot of teams. So that's a big new team. So more games, not a friendly time zone for regions, for Europe where a lot of the fans are. And there's a big question around who's going to win. Not the World Cup, France is going to win, of course, but more around who's going to win. Is it the broadcasters or is it TikTok and YouTube and others? The reason being that there's so many games, the time zone is not friendly. Therefore, some people are saying in industry that perhaps the highlights package was actually better money spent than actually spending so much money on the right themselves. So interesting to see that, you know, Kaze is going to have so much versus. Versus a global.

[A]

Yeah. And America is going nuts for this, which I think will be good for the sport. Ultimately, I'm. People play soccer in the US but it's not at the level that it is in the rest of the world. And you can't get tickets. You cannot get tickets.

[B]

Is it a price thing or. Because everything's gone.

[A]

It's all gone.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

People are like scrambling and scalping all over the place. But yeah, New York is completely sold out. LA is going to be. I mean, think about la, because it's basically getting two markets in Los Angeles. You get the US And Mexico. So, yeah, it's going to be a real, I think, amazing event this summer. So what do you think? We talked about the vibe. It was a great vibe. I opened the conference with a speech and I said, a lot of times when we come to these conferences, they wind up being group therapy sessions. Everybody's bitching and moaning about the state of the industry, which. I get it. There's a lot of chaos and a lot of disruption in our industry, but it feels like there's more complaining than there is action. And I said, stop it. And I think. I don't know if that was the reason why the tone was set but I think everybody here feels very optimistic, they're looking for collaborations. Yes, there's issues that we all are facing here but this felt like progress here. And someone asked me yesterday, there's been a palpable shift in the traditional players approach to social media and social video. And someone asked me for was there a moment in time that I felt that shift happen? And I think it was, I think it was mipcom last year. Don't you think that was when everything kind of like changed?

[B]

Yeah, I would have said the same thing. I was at the conference mid last year and I left and I felt kind of where are we going? And I felt exactly what you said about the group therapy. Then we went to mipcom and so mind the over presence of some companies. I love everyone getting a bit of that light but I think they really managed to kind of jazz things up and it's been continued. So agree 100%. I feel it's been these last few months But I think 2025 was. Yeah, something happened last year.

[A]

They discovered that there was no resisting it anymore. You had to lean in and at least test and learn. And it does feel like so many more companies, major traditional media companies are testing and learning in a way that they just hadn't before. And I, and I felt this, this felt exciting for the first time in a while a conference felt like, oh, I can see a future. I think it's coming, you know.

[B]

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's going to be interesting to see. I'm not going to Denver. You will be there. But interesting to see if you feel that same vibe in a few months time in the US because it's trickier for you guys there. So.

[A]

Yes and no. I mean if you look at the pressure that public broadcasters are under here, you know, and there's mergers and sales and all these other things happening in this market. I had Banijay on stage and they talked about the all three acquisition and you know, I mean just this week Disney announced layoffs, Sony announced layoffs. So it is a, it is a worldwide kind of malaise that the industry has been in. But you're right, the commercial media, because there is no public broadcaster and pbs, God love them, is not funded at the way that public broadcasting is here. It's not truly a public broadcaster in the same way, you know, there is no sector like that in the US to help keep things alive. And you know, Ben Keane did this really good speech here where he talked about how the global commissioning and especially here in Europe is Plummeting and a lot of the money is being moved into sport and there are just fewer things being bought and sold. This is really affecting the US entertainment economy. So it will be interesting to see. I do think, though, the optimism and the positivity, I think we have hit a critical mass here. I think one thing, I think we're finally starting to see the generational shift in leadership at some of these companies. You know, there were. There weren't a lot of super old bosses on stage.

[B]

You were the oldest.

[A]

I was the. I was probably the oldest on most of the stages that I was on. Julian from. From TF1 is a relatively young man. So, you know, I thought it was a. I think there is this. This turning point we're hitting and I. We've talked about this. I think the generational shift in leadership has to be part of that. And I'm feeling that wave happening.

[B]

So maybe we can move on to our guests.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So let's conjure our guest. Who is he, first of all?

[B]

So Denis Aster is the editor in chief at vee, formerly known as vida. So let's bring Denis on stage.

[A]

Thanks, Dennis, for coming.

[B]

Does it work? Is it going to work? It's going to be funny. Okay, cool. Perfect.

[A]

Thanks so much for joining us. We've been friends for a minute. We first connected on LinkedIn. You slid into my DMs with a lot of.

[C]

That sounds really bad. It is.

[A]

It was. It was really bad. No. You always pepper me with interesting factoids about the rest of the television world in a way that really helped educate me. You were really formative in me understanding specifically the universe that you two kind of are native to, which is this connected television operating system world. First of all, tell us quickly for the audience out there, what is vee?

[C]

So we're a smart TV platform. We're like a platform that has been out there since 2014. We used to be part of Hisense. Then in 2019, they spun us out. We've got an OS that OS is now expanding to be a full platform, including all sorts of stuff like payment, v Shops and all that stuff. We're on about 50 million connected TVs across the world. We were just told that we're going to be number three this year in Europe, which is.

[A]

I just saw that.

[C]

So we're an OS smart TV platform present across the world. Very strong in Europe, also growing popularity also in Latam, Southeast Asia. We're going to get into the US market slowly, but that's a whole different Beast. We're putting it aside for now, but we're going to be getting into that market as well. But that's what we do.

[A]

And Guy, your CEO gave one of the most entertaining speeches I've seen. And he's a very charismatic gentleman.

[C]

I love working, by the way. You should see the exchanges that we've got.

[A]

There's like, he is an entertaining guy, there's no question about it. But he talked a lot about everything you said. There's a shopping application now coming. I think the most fascinating part of what you were doing here is announcing this new measurement tool that's going to take on the classic measurement tools around the world called V Index. Can you talk about why the company decided to do that, what it is, how it works?

[C]

So it's pretty simple. Like the measurement system that we currently have on TV is two separate things depending on how the signal gets to the tv. We're measuring the same eyeballs on the same device at the same time, two different ways. So if it's a signal that is coming through the antenna through cable or through traditional distribution methods, we say it's a radio, right? And if on the same device, it is coming through, let's say, streaming, like the Internet, we call it Impressions. Right now, we're measuring it this different way and we're also selling it a different way. One of it is being sold using CPMs, normal digital. That's what we do. And the other one is being done selling GRPs. TRPs. Right, the normal broadcasting model. It just doesn't make any sense. You don't need two separate ways of measuring selling on the same device, especially if there's a significant discrepancy between the two. Currently, the CPMs on TV, if you just. If you do the math and you figure out how much it is value, you can talk, you know, eight to 10 times less is what we value. The same eyeballs on the same TV at the exact same time, looking the same content, just because it's coming through a different signal. And long term, this is going to be a huge problem for the industry. Money's shifting towards digital. And if we continue to value the same eyeballs this way, there's not going to be any money. We're not going to have money for people that are creating content, and that's going to be a huge problem. Down. I know it sounds maybe like a Don Quixote kind of a way. Now, who are we coming here trying to rescue? The industry, but it's a serious problem that we need to address. So what we're doing with V Index, we're trying to merge these two things. We've got the data on what is being watched on terrestrial television. We can do acr, we can do also, we can pair stuff with the tuner, for example, and also know inside of streaming what's being watched. All of that together. We're trying to create a unified measurement system and we're calling it V Indexes. We hope it's going to be an open index guy openly invited everyone.

[A]

Yeah. What does open index mean?

[C]

Yeah, anyone can contribute. Let's figure we're coming forward with an initiative. This is the V Index. If somebody else wants to join, if somebody else wants to work on it with us, sure, come over. Let's figure out how we can make the measurement system on a TV better than it is right now. It's just because it doesn't work.

[B]

So you're trying to put, to bring on the market a standard, something by which everyone is measuring the same thing, the same way. I have to say I love that because we've spoken at length about fragmentation these last few days, but to your point about that, group therapy is everyone agrees on the diagnostic, the disease, but no one really does anything about it. So we've seen small things being done. And I'm thinking about. I had a panel with Teflio, they do crowd testing, you know, at large, so that wherever you are, regardless of the device, you're trying to bring the best customer viewing experience, you know, everywhere, despite the fact that the world is so fragmented. But other than that, everyone is complaining. But then everyone is still defining things differently.

[A]

Siloing?

[B]

Yeah, siloing. Not really sharing any data. Yeah, well, so it's interesting someone said, you know, let's stop, you know, it has a purpose, it's been useful, but

[A]

it's just like, it's over, man.

[B]

But I mean, it's. Yeah, it's better than nothing is the extent of what you said. You think so?

[A]

I really, I mean, I think that's why I'm so fascinated by this index. I mean, you're doing this from a monetization standpoint. This is to help people who advertise on your platform measure the effectiveness of their advertising or. But I think, you know, if you look at the gauge that they just dropped for February today, by the way, or yesterday, they, I mean, they're just monkeying around with it in a way that is just not helpful to the industry. They combined Versant and NBC and gave them their own number there. These are two different companies now.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

[A]

And it's just, it's clearly a money grab for them trying to renew their contract with Nielsen. But why? So you are inviting folks in to co measure with you, basically, to index with you. And you've invited the other OEMs in particular, who have, you know, access to all the screens all over the world. Why do you think they haven't joined you yet?

[C]

We just started this. This is something that we've announced that I think was at ces. We announced it for the first time. Now we're going to roll it out, show it to everyone. This is how it looks like. I think people are just hesitant to do it right now. Nobody knows how it's going to look. We're going to, we're going to show it and say, listen, this is what we think the idea is. I'm pretty sure there's going to be people that are going to be against it. There's going to be people that are going to be disappointed. There's going to be people that have always relied on the zero rating statistics to increase their viewership. There's gonna be pushback on it, for sure. Why they haven't joined because they haven't, you know, they haven't felt the need and there's a little bit of a distrust also. People are still relying on their own silus. People think that their data might be better than ours or. But we need a universal standard. We've got tons of data, like return path data, has been out there for a while. We just have to smartly utilize it and we're gonna be able to accurately measure and very important like that. I can't stress this enough. We need to make sure that five years down the road, the people that are producing content are going to be. Are going to get paid the way that they should get paid. If we continue down this path and the amount of money going to them goes down, no one's going to make content. And then the whole system breaks down if there's no content to advertise against.

[A]

Yeah, six. Six of every ten of advertising on Planet Earth goes to just three companies and that share gets larger.

[C]

And do those three companies produce content?

[A]

Yes, they do.

[B]

Amazon does.

[C]

Amazon does.

[A]

But no, the other two don't really produce content. Meta and Google. And the flip around that is I was talking to somebody who operates, I think, six or seven fast channels last night, and he was complaining that the fast ecosystem is not turning into the revenue generator that everyone thought that it was going to. And I said, it's because no one knows who's watching. There was somebody else on stage earlier today who. He was asked, how's this fast channel doing? What's your monthly average users or anything? He's like, I don't know. I can't tell you because we don't get any data from the OEMs. But you're looking to fix that problem.

[B]

I heard they get data and I've seen it myself. But challenge, again, to the point you're making, is that they're giving different data sets. So someone said it's not true anymore to say there's no data. It's not hours watched. No, there's more. No, they get more than that. But the challenge is, again, a viewing session, an active user. All of those things are defined differently. So it's like I cannot understand and draw any decision strategy from that because it is a lot of fragmented data. So I love that you're doing that. But can I ask you something? Because I think one of the reasons why right now no one has joined so far is right now it's on paper, it's a concept, so you need to launch it. The question I have for you is that you're saying it's an open standard, in a way. What will it take to integrate that within any one system? Because that's also the first question. If people want that, they want it to be easy to use, implement, et cetera.

[C]

Yeah, that's why we need industry input. Very simple. What we're saying is we've got the data, this is the way that we see the data working out. If somebody wants to integrate the data into their reporting systems, come to us with an API, whatever you feel is the right way of doing it. Again, this is a call more than setting a standard and saying, this is the official measurement system that is going to replace anything that's out there. No, it's a call that says, listen, this is the information that we've got. This is how people are watching TV today. Come join us, let us know how we can make it better together.

[A]

So you say you have access to all this data. What are you seeing? What are some of the trends or what are some of the aha moments? And you're. You're a very. You're a student of the industry. You're not just a press practitioner. What are you seeing from the data that you have access to? That is interesting.

[C]

So, first of all, dominance of some players, that's for sure. And it's beyond what we think is the dominance right it's much further than what we feel is the dominance. Like the big platforms, the global platforms, like the Netflix, the YouTube and so on. The dominance is obvious. We're seeing a strong shift in streaming. Not as strong as the hype that is around it. It's moving towards streaming. Absolutely. But if you look at the attention that streaming is getting compared to broadcast, broadcast is still strong. We're still seeing, you know, half of consumption is still broadcast. Right.

[A]

Again, that is because Europe, which is where most of your footprint, have such a rich history and tradition of free public broadcasting. Also Europe is super fucking old. And so the slowest to adapt to streaming are Boomers and Xers and they are a disproportionate share of the population here compared to the rest of the world.

[B]

Since the oldest guy on this pod. But yeah, okay, but I have sunglasses

[A]

on, but go ahead.

[C]

Yeah, no, one thing is, this is what we're seeing also. We're seeing a significant trend like the streaming is picking up in places where we don't expect. We wouldn't expect it to pick up so quick. Africa, crazy for streaming. It looks like we just skipped a couple of generations. Everyone's just going towards streaming.

[A]

It's also super young territory. So half the population of Africa. Yeah, half the population is under 20.

[C]

Yeah, it's super young. They're going into streaming on TVs, by the way. On TVs very much. South America is also quite quick. Southeast Asia also, but with particular type of stuff. One of the things that I'm seeing is fast, for example, still represents a very small percentage of consumption of devices. I think it's related also to just. Again, we're in Europe. In Europe, broadcast is so strong, people have HB tv, red button.

[A]

Yeah. Why do you need more free tv?

[C]

So that also leans into our strategies. Like, listen, we're not going to have 7,000 channels of BS. Our focus is on having high quality channels. We've even gone down now from 100 to probably 80 channels. We're going to have fast, fully integrated into platform. Those are some of the trends.

[A]

But you said something interesting when we prepped for this pod, which was you called the herd. So you cut down from 100 to 80, but the actual viewing time went up.

[C]

Went up? Yeah, the average. The viewing time went up by about.

[A]

So fewer channels, more engagement.

[C]

Fewer channels, more engagement. Like the paradox of choice.

[A]

Right?

[C]

People are coming into us, they see a number of channels like 200. Whoa, I'm scared of it. Get the hell out of here. Right over here. With focus, we see that. By the way, it also. Focus forces us to be more creative in terms of how do we promote content, how do we get people, how do we improve discoverability? It's much easier. I mean, it's easier to discover good content if you have 80 channels in a particular market. Right. Don't forget, you're 47 different markets with eight channels. It's still a lot of channels you have to manage. But it's much easier for you to focus, to get the right content in front of the right people than to have 800 channels. Here you go. We've seen when we went from 100 to 120 to 100, we increased in the next month 20%. The viewing time and the average time spent also increased about the same.

[A]

And so your title is Editor in Chief?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

What does that mean?

[C]

Sounds way too fancy than it actually is.

[A]

It sounds like a newspaper job.

[C]

I actually come from journalism. That's the thing is I come from journalism. I worked in journalism for 20 years, broadcast journalism. So I know the value for me, content is super, super important. So what we do is we try to pick every single channel that we bring on a platform. We audit it. We have huge fights with our partners, even though they're our partners. But we have fights on, is this channel appropriate for this market? Should we have it? Should we not have it? Because I have this sword over my head that says 100, right? I cannot go over 100, or now it's going to be even 80. So that's my role. I go through the content, I verify that it's good, I talk to our partners, and then, most importantly, my team. Then we stay in contact with our partners. Every month we have a call, what is new, what is coming, what is worth promoting, what's the movie? What's the show? What should we do? News channels, entertainment channels, kid channels, all of them. And then we do a strategy on how we're going to promote it. We don't have a huge team, but what we do is then expose it to make sure that when Davos is happening, we promote Davos. If a new Adam Sandler movie is coming, we promote the new Adam Sandler movie. This is the editing chief I take care of.

[B]

And so you spoke about measurement at the top. And I think ultimately, one of the reasons why you want to fix that is because you want to improve the monetization. And so what are you seeing from that standpoint? Right? And I mean across the board, it doesn't have to be just, you know, fast etc. But because I see that you're also monetizing the on screen. What are you doing in this space to make sure that you know, as you're not a device manufacturer but you work with device manufacturer. We all know there's no value in the adware. All the value is in the software and the platform. How do you monetize that platform so

[C]

we don't sell the ads ourselves? That's the most important thing. Like one of the things that we are pointing out that people are sort of looking at us this way is like we want to be a platform. I don't want to be in the content game. I don't want to be in the ads game. I'm a platform. I'm purely a platform allowing people access to 50 million people's phones.

[B]

Right.

[C]

This is what we're doing. So how do we monetize? We partner with the big guys out there. We've sort of went away from the strategy of having 7,000 DSPs plugged into our system and then bidding. Who's going to pay us 4 cents CPM. Right.

[B]

And take a cut on the way.

[A]

It's crazy to race to the bottom.

[C]

Exactly. So what we've done is we cut that off. Now we're partnering with big broadcasters, the likes of TF1, Canal Plus.

[A]

So they sell your inventory.

[C]

That's what we're doing. We're partnering up with them. By the way, the cool thing is it actually helps them. Again, those are the people making contact. Right. If we are giving our inventory to them, they're able to benchmark that inventory to their own inventory and they're able to sell it at a premium. If we want to undercut them, they have to go down, which also reduces the amount of money they make. So they're the best resellers. They have the logic, they have the sales teams. We've partnered with a whole bunch of them. That's what we do. And we do that both on the home screen, which is there's a huge banner up there. We have streaming inventory as well on our channels. That's what we do. Some of the partners even allow us to sell inventory inside of their own applications. Because we have good relationships and we do very smartly. We try to balance it out with content promotions, sold ads, just to make sure the user experience is important. Because this industry, we need to start focusing on the first in front of the screen.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Super, super, super important. We shouldn't forget about them.

[B]

So maybe we can take a look at a few Quick trends. We've heard from here. And I want to have your take because you said that he was in your DMs, and every time I was pushing something, he's always doing exactly the same. It's like he's calling me on stuff or calling the industry on stuff. One that I know you have. Yeah, very vocal. But I mean, he has the experience and the data, so I'm good with that. But one thing that we've. So we've, We've. We've done a podcast with the founder of Olliwater Tech, Vertical Video. So I want to have your take. Yeah, that was a great session. The guy was amazing. But so, of course, what we're seeing right now is that you see the industry wanted to have a bit of that vertical love coming to the big screen. Do you believe in vertical video content on the big screen? I know it.

[C]

So let me tell you. So everyone right now is talking about this vertical. Let's bring it, let's bring it, let's bring it. But the. Am I allowed to say soft porn?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So vertical drama.

[A]

She said way worse.

[B]

No, you said soft porn last time. I did not say. Oh, but yeah, oh, you said soft core pornographical drama is very.

[C]

First of all, like, it's not about the format. We can figure the format out. That's not the problem. The problem is the content. Why have all the social media platforms that have tried to be on the. On the TV with their own content failed? Because the way that we consume content on a small screen is super personalized. It's me looking at my screen. My TikTok, we had TikTok on the TV. It failed. Why? Because I don't get my family to watch like, this videos. By the way, I watch cobbler videos. People that are fixing shoes, I have a weird obsession with them. I'd be ashamed if my family saw that. It's like it's an individual device and you. And this is what it is.

[A]

Other people have other things that are way more challenging.

[C]

Yeah, but I'm saying now imagine, like short drama falls into this category. People love them on their phone because it's private. Private is like my little thing. And I watch through it now. I don't think it's gonna work. I think the format of the short drama is good. I think it can work if we find the right content for it. Currently, we haven't found it yet. We're still looking for it, but the format that we have on the mobile phone, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna.

[A]

And Bogdan yesterday, when we did the pod with him, he said, you know, they're moving into other genres that they know they have to move beyond the softcore porn. Right. So true crime, mystery, detective shows, sports, that type of stuff. But do you think vertical will work on the television?

[C]

It's going to be done. I've seen stuff in China, for example, from Tencent or By Tense, where they take a vertical video and they make it into a 16 by 9 the way you would. You wouldn't even imagine was ever filmed in a 9 by 16. Easily. I don't think the format is going to work. It's going to be done in some sort of a 16 by 9 way or a one by one. Somehow the format is going to change the content itself, meaning the short clips. That could work. I don't see a problem with that.

[B]

Yeah, I see this more as a way to discover and get more content. Not really its own thing like you would do on a mobile, but again, you know, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[A]

My thought is vertical premium TV is going to be a thing, but it's going to be on the phone.

[B]

On the phone.

[A]

It's not for the couch, it's for the toilet. It's not for the couch, it's for the bus or the doctor's office. It's for the between times.

[C]

You don't sit down in front of the TV for two minutes, but you wouldn't sit down and power it.

[A]

Well, to get the weather, maybe, but then I go to my phone. So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

That was a very old man statement.

[B]

Dennis, thank you so much. That was amazing.

[A]

It was great to be with you in real time, in real space. It's always great to have you in person. This has been amazing. Our first Stream TV Europe. This has been the Media Odyssey podcast.

[B]

That is Marian Renchette and that is Ivan Chaparro.

[C]

We'll see you next time, Sam.