A (5:49)

I want to go with 2007. 2000, yes.

C (5:52)

Yeah, yeah, Even before. Yeah, it was like around then. And I had my phone. I was driving on Beverly passing, I think one of the studios on Fairfax and Beverly around there, if you know LA and the writers are there. And I decided to stop my car, get out of my car. You know, in the past you would have your news crew and et cetera. But I just had my phone and I went up and I bumped into Norm MacDonald at the time, the comedian. And I was interviewing him about the writers strike on. He goes, what do you, you want to do an interview? Okay, with what? I go with this. He's like, what? And it was the first time he had experienced someone interviewing him on his, on the phone. So this just became a thing for me. I realized it was a thing and then, yeah, I got hired by CBS News, started what's trending one of the first separated from what's trending, then built it more as a business beyond just a live show into an actual company and publisher, beyond just being me with other team members and voices and. And we've had a crazy wild ride over the past over 15 years now. And you're kind of, yeah, you're kind

A (6:57)

of like the athletic for the creator economy. Right. I mean you've got video, you've got art that you write, you do interviews.

C (7:05)

Yeah.

A (7:06)

Red carpets, you cover industry events and you also write trend pieces as well. It's a, it's a, it's a full on publication.

C (7:15)

Yeah, yeah, we do all types of media and create that media for the platform we're creating for. So again, you know, YouTube, online, online video, social video, cut downs, social content, which could be video or it could be a static image, website, articles, et cetera. It's a whole ecosystem. And then we now distribute content as well in other places, like out of home. So we have partnerships with Screen Vision, which is in movie theaters and gas station tv. And I mean, I could say this here, but, yeah, we're about to announce a partnership with Curb. I still need to sign the agreement, but Curb Taxicab. You'll see us in taxi cabs. New York. Evan. You won't be able to escape me. Just saying. And so I'm sorry, we're not in France yet. You will be, or. Yeah, so at a certain point. So, yeah, it's been really amazing. And I like to say we want people to bump into the brand serendipitously wherever they are. And I love the idea of bringing digital culture and the Internet to spaces that surprise people. Where, like, we were one of the first to bring this. I remember we were covering a story about this big Twitch star. I'm blanking on his name now. And we did a segment about him on gas station tv, and his fans were freaking out, like, oh, my God, like, they're covering our favorite, you know, creator on all the gas stations. I was just at my gas station, and it felt like this mainstream moment. So I've always loved being part of those and bringing kind of the red carpet idea to these emerging spaces for people and voices, I feel like deserve to be heard and never got really that mainstream attention. Obviously, that's changing now. But I still look at us as a bunch of kind of disruptors and rebels. I like to feel that way, even as mainstream is accepting us a bit more.

B (9:07)

Fascinating. And so you guys, you've met a long time ago, but you started working together only last year, right? The creator map. We did an episode.

C (9:16)

Yeah.

B (9:17)

And so this is your baby, right? Both of you guys, how did you come to do that map, and why was it important for you guys to do that?

A (9:26)

Well, Shira's. You know, as a result of this work, Shira, you've been at the center of the creator culture now. You know, since it's, you know, really reinvention into something larger than just people posting videos online.

C (9:39)

Yeah.

A (9:40)

And you've become an expert in it. You know, you're the. You're the six degrees of Shira Lazar that everybody talks about. We all can kind of run our relationships with through Shira. And so I. We both independently had ideas to map the creator ecosphere.

C (9:54)

Yeah.

A (9:55)

On our own. And then we were having a conversation about it, and we said, well, rather than creating competing maps, you're an expert in this area, I'm an expert at mapping media. Let's collaborate. And we. We set off from there. About a year ago, we started talking about Wild.

C (10:12)

Yeah, no, it's wild. I wanted to do more report studies and I loved what Evan was doing with the cartography and I thought, yeah, wouldn't be cool. Again, it's this idea and the creator space is all about collaboration and I would love to see it actually happen more. Like, I think despite us being a community together and there is collaboration, but there could be more. And so we tend to. Because we are so used to hustling and doing our own thing and making it happen. You know, you'd be surprised at how much it's still hard to get people together sometimes, because we're all doing our own thing constantly. You know, when we go to an event together, we start collaborating and all that. But sometimes it can be hard. Unless Mr. Beast calls, of course. And everyone and I will be on Beast Games, by the way. No, I. In the future.

A (11:03)

Really? Okay.

C (11:04)

No, no, no, no. I see me there. This is like a manifestation. Although, anyway, maybe in the future we'll talk about Beast Games, but. So that's really why I love this, because I feel like it was really in the spirit of the creator space when I approached him and he was thinking about it too, and saying, let's just do this together, make it easier. We create better when we work together. And then getting Film Hub on board and then just building out this map. And the idea was that, of course, everyone's interested in the creator economy, but then it's also hard to get a sense of everything in it, from the platforms to those that are emerging on those platforms, to the tools, to the representation. Even when you have companies that are coming in to fund this space, they even have a hard time tracking who's who and what's what, because there's so many different parts of it, and while it's connected, it's very fragmented. So we wanted to have. Yeah, a map that really gave you a sense of how vast this space is and who's powering it and what that looks like in numbers, but in also engagement, which I think is really obviously interesting as well. And so I just thought it was so cool. And I feel like I send it to everyone who's like, so what's this? Or what's that? I go, just look at the creator Ecosphere map, really? And it'll give you a sense you need to play with it, interact with

B (12:35)

it, because it's big, it's big and so besides. So you're putting this out there for the community, for the industry. Two things, right? Number one, as you progressed and created it, what did you learn that perhaps you did not know? And ever since you dropped this, what was the reaction? Did that spur some conversation within the creator economy, within big media as well, who's trying to figure it out and see what they should do, who they should partner with, should they invest, et cetera?

C (13:13)

I was gonna say what I thought was interesting is that I think to have someone like Evan put his touch on this space, I think for people in this space, it legitimized it. And I think that. Yeah, I think so. And then I think for the traditional space, to see this space from someone like Evan, but also the authenticity of where I stand was really important, which is why these types of collaborations that bridge the gap is so and so that for me was a big deal. And yeah, seeing people talk about it and share it who wouldn't typically talk about the space, but then really starting to better understand its power beyond some of these, I would say feature stories and typical headlines was really interesting to me. And then of course, and Evan, you could speak to the engagement factor of, you know, again, what we say, you know, quality over quantity. But really, I feel like this map dug deeper into that.

A (14:08)

Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot doing this. Most notably, it's interesting, Marian, you know, for those of us who come from the more traditional side of the media, we talk about the data in digital being so much more powerful and all these other kind of things, but then you got to remember it's all run by walled gardens.

B (14:24)

Yeah.

A (14:25)

And so the data there is kind of as chaotic and a little bit messy as it is in traditional media for different reasons, competing metrics, competing, you know, providers and all that kind of stuff. So just choosing who to partner with on data was hard. And Shira was instrumental bringing influential influencer marketing AI to the table. They were really crucial to a lot of the data points you see on that map. Tubefilter was another one. But then honestly, it became this large scale collaboration on all right, in the company names, forget the data kind of sizing stuff. The distributors and the tool sets and all the infrastructure providers in the curator world putting together that list and arguing over who should be on it and who shouldn't be on it. I learned a lot from Shira. Filmhub also participated in that a great deal. We went to other outside folks. So I just, I learned a lot about the shape and size of the Ecosystem itself. I thought I was a bit of an expert in it going into it compared to Shira, not so much. But it was a. It was a real edifying experience for me.

C (15:36)

And it was also following where money was moving attention and also infrastructure, which I think is interesting. Like holistically, it's hard to find something that encapsulates all of that.

A (15:48)

Yeah.

B (15:49)

And on that last piece, I think I feel, and you know, I'd be interested to, to know what you think, but that in 2025, the creator economy, creators, it became mainstream. I think you need to be living under a rock to not understand that there's this big force happening in the markets. Everyone is trying to figure out how to work with creators, et cetera, how to behave more like creators. But there's one thing, and that's because I'm very techy at heart, is that I feel like a lot of technology companies and those guys who are working with the big names, the Netflix, the Disney's of the world, they are still very much focused on gaining clients from legacy traditional media. The only thing is that right now, pretty much everyone has launched everything that they need to launch. So sure, you need to maintain, upgrade, innovate, et cetera, but all of those companies are chasing tier one streaming services. And unless you swap, there's not a lot of net new business coming your way. And last year at ibc, that's the point that I made with a French company that maybe you know, which is called webidia, they represent Enoch Stack, you know, amongst. Amongst a few examples. And they were saying that those creators and those companies, they need that infrastructure more and more. They're still at a time where YouTube is where they store their videos and when you ask them to dig up, you know, the archives and the raw materials, it's nowhere to be found.

A (17:23)

Yeah, no, no, it is. It is really interesting to watch this happen, you know, to think about. I mean, we are so to. To kind of tag back to something that Shira said. One of the reasons why Mary and I decided to collaborate on this podcast was everything you said. We are stronger together. Each of us has our own brands, we have our audience, but we have been much. I think we are much better in this podcast as a brand, individually, as a result of collaborating, than we would have been had we never worked together. So I think it's made us both stronger. Marian, I don't know if you agree with that.

C (17:54)

I.

B (17:55)

100% absolutely.

A (17:56)

And we struggle with the storage. We accidentally went live the other day while we were Playing around with live like we have. We are still kind of building our infrastructure with, you know, bubblegum and band aids on the back end, you know, subscribing to this, subscribing to that. Shira, you know, you were instrumental in pointing us to all these infrastructure companies that your cohort, people that you report on, people that you talk to, utilize for community building, banking, all of those. Yeah, but isn't that a reflection, and this is something I think I would really love to hear from you, is how different the creator economy is than when you started. You know, when it was a ragtag kind of just wild west. Now these creators are actual companies now they actually have people working for them. Now they actually have, you know, quote unquote, virtual checkbooks and things like that. In what other ways other than just kind of growing up as an industry, have you seen the creator economy shift since you started reporting on it? But especially this, this decade. What do you think the changes?

C (19:04)

Yeah, it's so interesting because there was many versions of what we're seeing now. Like there was maker studios and smosh popping up early, companies that ended up getting acquired. Right. And that. So they had some of what we see today they'd have built as a company, not just as a channel, clearly. But it still wasn't as sophisticated to the level it is now and scaled up. Right. And the, the partnerships are happening in a small way. I mean, I even remember Grace Helbig getting an E show and all that. Like there was experiments. But the problem is the experiments were taking someone that was big and throwing them in something new versus saying how do we find some cross collaboration? And if you have an IP format that works here, make it, you know, bigger. But then the behind the scenes is here. Like it's more of a strategic approach to it that just wasn't happening back then. And yes, there wasn't the same tools like that are made specifically for creators. Like now you have creator credit cards and then you have, you know, people trying to build payment programs where like payroll programs for creators. You. Yes. Like, you know, you have Dropbox set who are marketing probably to filmmakers makers, right. In Hollywood that are now marketing to creators. Right. Adobe Suite back then, you know, who they would market towards is very different than now. So all these companies, while the tool definitely is different. Right. Because now we have AI, they're more in the box tools, they're hopefully more accessible, a bit cheaper, more mobile. Because we're not necessarily just on desktop building right now, but there. Yeah, different variations of that that are now marketed for creators that in the past were just creatives.

A (21:00)

Right, right, right.

C (21:01)

And so I think that's the big

A (21:03)

transition is they were just creatives. I'm just making shit. The business is not really my primary objective now. The business is central to what, who these creators are.

C (21:12)

Yeah. And in the past it was you're a filmmaker, you're a photographer. Now I believe if you put any of your content online, even if you have a traditional position, you're still right. Because you have an ability to make money through maybe the traditional ways you did. But now there's a whole other possible revenue stream of making money online if you approach it in that way. And yeah, there were no creator funds or investments in that way. Yeah, that just was not happening. And if they, if someone did something, they would do it as a one off. Oh, we did our creator thing. We bought that one company, we partnered with that one person, you know, like that was their strategy. We're doing the creator thing. And, and so it was different. You know, influencer marketing wasn't really called influencer marketing. Right. It was can we connect with talents in a way? Like when, when witch trending started doing influencer marketing and agency services? It wasn't even called that. It was just that you wanted to connect with creators and talent. We knew, well, we wanted to be part of that business because those are our relationships. And at the time it wasn't influencer marketing, it was just marketing, I guess. And so there wasn't really names for these things and they would put kind of experimental budget against it or it'd be kind of in social and digital. And so now it's easier, I guess for people to wrap their heads around because there's a name to it. And as we all know, industries need names for things or else it's hard to, for them to understand and take it in. You need to not dumify it, but you know, it needs to have a framework and a structure and oh, I could put this in a budget and this is where I understand how to place it. Or else again you all, you end up in the. With the innovation people or again yes, the digital people. Exactly. So I would say that I think the past year the maturity has been next level where again, I think that in the past people had their one thing they were doing. People realize it can't just be one thing. They need to be trying a lot of different things like they're doing with any part of the industry to see what sticks. And just because something doesn't stick doesn't mean all creator stuff sucks. It means they chose the wrong thing. Well, right.

A (23:34)

And that's. I mean, so there's two things. One, I think you've been very instrumental in teaching traditional media folks how to creator, but you've also been really good at teaching creators how to traditional media. What. What have you found that traditional media folks understand least that they're beginning to learn about? And frankly, the other way around, what are the big pain points that you're seeing? Like, Unilever moved a huge amount of money into influencer marketing. They went from 30% of their budget to 50% of their budget. The average influencer marketing budget increased, like, almost 200% last year. And with all this money coming into the creator sphere, it's great for creators, but it also comes with a ton of challenges and pitfalls too. So where are you seeing the pain points on both sides?

C (24:21)

So I think when we think about those numbers, those numbers are huge and amazing. But then I think there's been reports that a lot of it goes to the top, the 1%. Like, there's a creator middle class that actually most people don't make more than $15,000 being a creator. So I feel like there's this sense of huge opportunity, which there is, but there also needs to be the reality of what most people make and how they work. Because I think that when people think, oh, there's just a ton of money, you guys are just rich, you start also expecting things from a labor market that they can't actually give you because most of their work is actually unpaid labor. And when you have people that think it's all glamour and you have so much money, so they're just being like, well, you should be able to do this. And then you have another person that's saying, well, no, this is actually my lived experience and you're not believing me and trusting me that I actually need to get paid for this. And, you know, there's. And there's also that people want it based on CPMs, and they're not taking into account the actual labor that goes into it should be labor plus CPMs. Like, there's.

A (25:31)

I think there's production with a normal media company, you'd pay production and media. With the creators, them one check and expect everything.

C (25:39)

Yeah. And it's just that I feel like it's. It isn't fair because, yes, there are some creators that maybe fall into that bracket, but most don't, and it doesn't account for their time. Right. And so it becomes performance based and no other work. Yeah, like hire me next based on the performance. If it worked. It worked. It didn't. Didn't. But there's still a lot of work that goes into it that we get to be paid for.

A (26:02)

Well, and Marianne, you see this a lot. You throw conferences for people, you write papers for people. You get pulled into creative processes and they're like, well, you'll just write that or you'll just make that video. You'll just record seven videos for us. And they pay you. They want to pay you one thing, they don't want to pay you for your time. And then the media that you're pushing out, which they expect to come with, isn't that. I mean, and we've talked about this, you and I, so I'm giving away your secrets here.

B (26:29)

But no, no, no, no. Absolutely. And I think the question is it's very hard to price. To price yourself. It's. But ultimately you either fall into the pitfall of pricing for your time and you very often forget to pro or for what it's going to cost you, but you don't, you know, really price for value. And ultimately this is. So some people are saying it's all performance, then there's nothing. Or people are saying this is how much time I'm going to spend and how much that's going to cost. But either way, you're missing out the actual value that you brought. Doing XYZ for a brand, we get better. But I think you said something interesting about that unpaid work. And I have to say that, you know, all of that LinkedIn writing and substack and even what we do to prep for the pods, like you said, it shouldn't go more than 20 hours a week. And I have to go look at my notes because honestly, it takes a lot of time to create that much content. And it is paying off, but it is not being compensated for it.

A (27:37)

Yeah.

B (27:38)

And you don't see it right away. Right. So you see it as a whole when the year has ended, you know that it's a compounded efforts that brought you that amount of money. But it's very hard to say that amount of time that I've spent, you know, equal that amount of money.

C (27:54)

And I want to tap back into that in a moment because we did get into that in our creator mental health survey, where we found a certain amount of unpaid labor hours that, you know, after that hour, it led to decreased and negative wellbeing. So we see that and the numbers and the data that backs that. But I Do want to just, you know, go back to that is that, you know, you're getting paid for your time, but also, yes, your experience, what you know, your knowledge and all the other things that led you to that moment, which is unpaid, which hopefully that it back pays almost you. But then I would say we're in a really interesting time where there's so much attention. It leads, I think, to a lot of amazing people getting opportunities. But then it's a land grab where a lot of people see, oh, creators that have not been in this space and they're building these influencer marketing companies and they're trying to get all this brand money and they're not necessarily the right people to do it. And then they hire us and they barely know what to do and it then becomes a kind of a bad look for all of us because they're not managing the process properly. And so, and I see this time and time again, traditional agencies getting, because they move into the digital realm. Creator. Oh, we're launching our creator marketing division. And so they could get a few million dollars from their, you know, current brands that they work with. So they don't lose that to another agency. And yet they do not know how to do it properly. They either hire the same people doing the same things or they are telling you what to do. Not really understanding the platforms. Like, I worked on a recent campaign that was incredible, but yet I was amazed of the things they were requesting me to do. The agency that made me feel like, like you're not on these platforms because you don't not understand how they work. Like you're asking me to put a link in a caption on Instagram. Like, are you. What is going on? And I know that you're getting paid. Well, yeah, but like something like that where I'm like, and I know you're getting paid, not maybe you as an individual, but the company's getting paid a huge amount. Like there are then other agencies led by creators, but maybe aren't getting these other huge deals because traditional companies now it's a land grab. So that's the one thing I think that's going to happen over the next two years. We're going to see people try. And even I've talked to countless traditional agencies who I talk to and they go, we want to work with you. You're a creator, creator led, blah, blah, blah. And yet someone else sells them on some shiny object because they're a big name company or they have a big team and then they mess up an entire creator Campaign. I've heard countless of these stories. And then I get asked as the, you know, we are the mom and pop, more guerrilla marketers that are, we're creators, you know, we're. And we clean it up or then we have to give them advice of what to do that they're not doing and why they're not doing it properly.

A (30:53)

And, and, and so two things. One, you know, you can save a lot of time by actually hiring expert to walk you through how to, how to creator, how to do this. There are, there are rules to this and one of them is don't give your creators too many rules. You're not hired.

C (31:08)

Yeah, listen to us. Listen.

A (31:10)

Exactly, Listen.

C (31:10)

Yeah, listen to us. Like there's that. And just to my last thing, I don't want to go to Rent because there's so much opportunity. But again, if you're going to be building out creator programs, don't wait like for your agency, you know, to come in and then hire a creator, build it, get the creator to even help you hire that agency. Because we could then see through what they're doing and say, this is not good. You might think it's good.

A (31:34)

It's a big shift, I think. And we talked to Yasmin Dawson about this and we've talked to other people about this, hiring actual creators as executives,

C (31:42)

creator and residence programs, but it shouldn't happen.

A (31:45)

You educate yourself on how to do this.

C (31:48)

It's not part of the campaign. It's pre campaign free strategy. They're building it with you from the foundation, with the other executives, not when you finally have your agency. And now it's going to be a fight between who's paying for this one creator person. Like, no, well, you wouldn't, but it's happening.

A (32:05)

You wouldn't just install solar panels on your roof without getting a green expert to come in and tell you what panels to buy and how to install them. It's kind of. I know that sounds like a big metaphorical leap, but it is kind of the same thing. Don't just dump money into the creator space without having someone, a Sherpa who can tell you how to do it. Right. Seriously, you'll hurt yourself and you'll hurt your brand. You have a very huge possibility of hurting your brand. Let's transition though, a little bit because we talked about the struggles of a creator and the challenges of being a creator. A lonely business, because it's a lot of time staring at a ring light or staring at a keyboard or staring at a phone and then a Lot of time reading briefs and doing all that kind of stuff. You started Creators for Mental Health to address all this and then you did this study around it, which has been really illuminating. How did you come to founding Creators for Mental Health? What was the motivation behind it and what did you find out through this recent big survey that you did?

C (33:04)

Yeah, so having been in the space two decades basically, and from the beginning, and having a lot of high highs and low lows, myself as a creator, but also small business owner, an entrepreneur, where there was no real path, I was going through it and learning along the way, you know, which it can be challenging. And also watching my peers at what they were going through too, and just seeing such a lack of support, you know, beyond obviously support. You know, people are there when you're, you know, doing well and going viral and they're there for the business, but they're not there necessarily for the human. And seeing this business grow and just realizing like any other creative business, whether it be actors or musicians, they've built some of these infrastructures for support. You know, they, there's obviously unions, there's musicares, there's backline now for musicians. We just didn't have any of that. And yet we're the fastest growing workforce and workplace in the world. And there was just for me a huge gap. So having gone, gone through my own personal growth and mental health journey and then having an opportunity into 2024 to do an event that was bringing together mental health brands and creators, I literally just called it Creators for Mental Health. It was very simple. Like we're like, what do we call this? You know, let's not make it that complicated. And that went really well. We did another one in New York with Shop and the response was incredible. Even Creator Economy nyc, who's a co host, was like, that was one of our top events, which is amazing. Brett does great work. And so I realized going into 2025, I think there's something here, there's clearly a need people want to come together to one discuss also as people that have platforms, how do we be better advocates, mental health advocates for our communities. But then also the one thing we're not asked while we're megaphones and mouthpieces, very rarely do people ask us how are we doing? And so that was the point of it. And it expanded into an initiative bringing mental well being tools to the creator economy through now events, content, education services and research. And In May of 2025 I launched Creator Care, which is discounted sliding scale therapy for creators starting In California, where, you know, you can get therapy with or without insurance and you don't need to get a bulk of sessions. It could be session by session. And we shift it based on what you're earning because some creators, you know, you can make 30,000 one month and zero the next month. And so it really stops people from getting support that they need. And I, I've seen this. And so that was one thing. And then we did this research project that you mentioned because it was clear as I was building this, people were asking in brands in the industry, well, what do creators need? What are they saying they're interested in? And so it was clear we needed the data. So we brought a bunch of brands together to sponsor this study. These things cost money, you know, and we got a researcher and Lupiani insights and strategies shout out and I do want to give a shout out to the brands who sponsored it because these things can't be possible without them. Opus be real statusphere and social current. And these are people that just saw the importance and jumped in and you know how hard it is for that to happen. So super grateful. And we came out with this 50 page comprehensive report on creators and mental health in North America. 542creators did the survey and the results are really gonna help us and inform us as to how we serve this community and how we work with platforms and brands as well.

B (36:52)

Yeah, super interesting. When you look at the key themes, right, that come out of, you know, those that survey and people you talk to, you have. We said isolation, lack of support, identity conflict. That's very interesting. Someone saying, my audience wants, you know, vulnerability, but some days I just want to post a recipe. I was like, yeah, some days I don't want to write about streaming in Europe. You know, I want to talk about the fact that I'm going to start learning drums this year or whatever. Cool. There's the burnout piece, there's. You mentioned the money thing. But what's interesting and what should be a big focus because I think it's at the core of everything else and that should matter to brands and platform because at the end of the day, this thing works. Thanks. Due to creators, without the creators, all of that does not work anymore. And they said metrics, obsession, content, performance anxiety, algorithmic volatility, like there's no warning. One day your views drop by 80% and you're left wondering what you did wrong. Like all, all of those things are crucial and I think the ecosystem can do something about it.

C (38:00)

Yeah. What was interesting is we saw a negative wellbeing score with those who check their analytics more than once a day. Which is interesting. Yeah. And it actually gives you negative well being, Evan. Yeah, no, FYI. Exactly.

A (38:14)

I was pointing at myself. I check my analytics like every 15 minutes and it' totally disturbing to your psyche. It really is.

C (38:20)

Which it goes back to as we can build teams and support systems. Maybe you noticing that you're so close to it, then you have other people on your team that do it. Or maybe you, you know, put a time weekly that you're going to check in and then being able to do a report. I think this is a great thing to also inform the platforms. If we tell them, hey, this is actually causing negative well being for your community that you say you care about. What if you then said to the community, we're gonna be doing weekly reports for you sent to your inbox, you don't need a check. Cause we've recognized that this doesn't support your mental health. And we wanna make sure you're happy and healthy on these platforms and giving the best of yourself to your audiences. Amazing. So. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

A (39:02)

Really good. I mean, just to put some numbers on this, less than 10% say they have excellent mental health. Of these, of the people you Surveyed, more than 2/3, 69% said they're facing financial instability due to their content creation. Two thirds say the obsession over metrics hurts their mental health. 89% have no access access to mental health. So these are all like, these are crisis points in what is now the fastest growing segment of the talent economy

C (39:32)

within media, I would say. And some other. And thank you because I don't have the report in front of me. So I appreciate you saying some of those things. It was like a lot.

A (39:41)

No, I really, I'm obsessing about your message metrics.

C (39:45)

Yes, thank you. So I'm trying to support my mental health right now. So what was the most heartbreaking stat was that 1 in 10 creators have suicidal ideation based on their work and that's double the national average. And as you mentioned, 9 out of 10 have no support for me. That is a clear gap for the industry and really showcases what we get to work on. Right. And you know, I don't say that lightly. You know, leading up to the holidays, we had two creators in the US one that was in their early 30s and one in their late 40s who died by suicide. And you know, one of them, I had actually approached their agency about sharing creator care and just resources. Not even mine. It wasn't about being the exclusive and being the only one to own. It said, just please share some resources with your creators. We want to normalize this. Just like you share a 1099, when people sign up and they're like, oh, this is kind of awkward. We don't feel like it's really our place not to say this, but like it was an tragic irony that that was an agency where one of these creators died by suicide. Not to say it would have made a huge difference. Right. But we never know. We never know if stuff like that makes a difference. So part of the work we're doing is building, you know, in this new year, based on our research, I'm working with Harvard to build this creator toolkit, which is going to help creators better talk to their audiences about these issues, even in the DMs, not just publicly. A creator toolkit will include how to support self because our pillars in creators for mental health are self, community and advocacy. We're not taking away advocacy, but we can't be great advocates if we ourselves are falling apart. And that's a reality. And then also we're going to be training the people that are first in line with creators, which is management and representation. I don't expect you to be a therapist, although you would say managers think that they're therapists sometimes if you talk to them, but making sure they have the tools that are trained themselves to manage that as well as peer support. So these are things that creators have asked for and they've shown that could help. Again, we won't know until we implement these things, but I think at this point, knowing the status that's anything could help. And I'm willing to try anything if it means saving someone's life.

A (42:08)

It's amazing, really amazing. And it is crucial. I think we're all scrolling TikTok and Instagram shorts and YouTube, Twitch and whatever on a daily basis, but we're never really sitting there and thinking, what's the human being behind this video? How are they supporting themselves? How are they eating? How are they feeling? And too much empathy can also, you know, kind of overload your system as well. But it is really important that someone like you who understands this industry is championing and advocating on behalf of the people who, you know, to Marian's point from earlier, are the fuel of the. Of all these platforms.

C (42:47)

Yeah, and I was just going to add, I think that and for good reason, we've had a huge focus and we should still on the users online and on social and how do we make sure they are protected. But I think tangentially we need to think about the future of work on social media. So for me, what I'm fascinated by and I want to work on is both how do we protect and create safe and healthy spaces as people who exist online and on social, and work on online and social. And it goes and works hand in hand, actually, versus I just think people have not been thinking about that holistically right now. So I'm hoping this work starts bringing this to light and making people think more about it and take action on it as well.

B (43:31)

And just this week you announced the Creator Bill of Rights. For those who are not legalists. What's a Bill of Rights and what are you trying to achieve with that?

C (43:40)

Yeah, a Bill of Rights is a framework before it gets put into law. It's a presentation of ideas that gives people a sense of what we might want and what could be put and made into a law. So it's the beginning of a conversation. It's a framework. And so I've been working with Congressman Ro Khanna and his team on this, this since I connected with him in May when I was launching Creator Care. And I was just sharing passionately about the work I was doing and why it's important and how this is a growing workforce. We're not just a bunch of influencers you should roll your eyes at. More and more people want to be in this industry and it's growing very quickly. You know, IAB says 1.5 million people are full time creators in the U.S. we all know the economy is going to be a half a trillion dollar economy by 2030, and yet people are not taking this seriously. As a workforce goes, it seems like you guys need a Bill of Rights. And I was like, yeah, ha ha, you know, okay. And then we ended up starting to have conversations. And then from these conversations with me and other creators he had talked to, including I'll give a shout out to another one, Lissandra Vasquez, who's a comedian, they drafted this. And part of it, it includes one acknowledging us as a workforce and as small business owners and entrepreneurs and digital gig workers. It also, it presents and, and asks for a pathway towards monetization on platforms. Some platforms have monetization, many don't. And they're not trying to figure it out, which is an issue. If, if they're monetizing off of our content, then there should be a responsibility or else it's predatory and it's exploitation. It also demands transparency around, you know, algorithms as well. It we want to create discounted health insurance for us as a group of workers, and also portable benefits, including retirement. We also talk about AI and protection around likeness, IP and deepfakes. And so all of these things are part of our worker economy and our creative economy. And so we're a big enough group that I believe it matters enough, especially as work changes around the world. But here in America, we should have protections that other groups and industries have. But, you know, we need ones that are specific to us, obviously.

A (46:08)

Yeah. The problem is, I think a lot of people in the world don't see the creator economy as an industry. They see it as a collection of bullshit that floats around the Internet. But it is an industry. It's an enormous industry that, you know, Unilever puts half of their marketing money into. Right. That Meta now generates more revenue than all TV on the face of the earth, all television. So it is an industry and these are the work.

C (46:30)

Yeah.

A (46:30)

And they need protection just like, like auto line workers and, you know, barbers and every other industry out there.

C (46:37)

Yeah. And Ro uses a great analogy. He goes, There's 83,000 steel workers in the US but there's 1.5 to 10 million creators. And you're just letting us dilly dally and say, well, it's the wild West. How, why should it be the wild west if companies are making billions of dollars? This doesn't make sense. If this was an industry that was falling apart and money was going away, unfortunately, unfortunately, like other media industries, I would say I wish you could have this, but maybe this is not the right time and place, because it seems like your industry is falling apart. But no, that is not happening, far from it. And it's growing. And so we need to start establishing this. And I think that a lot of us are relying on the possibility of unions and SAGs doing great work. There's Creators Guild of America, who I work with as well. They're doing some good stuff. The fact is, I do think, unfortunately, we are too fragmented and we're doing too many different things for a one size fits all. Which is why I think, you know, from a state level or a federal level, we should establish this as something. So again, because this is a framework, a bill of rights, now we've put it out to the public. We want to get bipartisan co signers. So other representatives as well as we have a petition that creators are signing@creator billofrights.com so. So we're going to be continuing this as an open conversation and adjusting as we See what makes sense. So this is just a presentation of these ideas that hopefully starts a bigger conversation.

B (48:04)

One of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you about that is when. So when we met at mipcom, you spoke about that. We had our friends from Lighthouse, they spoke about how within, you know, their facilities, they would find a way to have, you know, mental health, health support for the creators, et cetera, et cetera. And I couldn't help but notice how even if I see there's a massive lack at a minimum, the good thing is that there's some level of awareness and recognition that there's something wrong and that it needs to be fixed. And I feel like in corporate media, in big media, there's an underlying problem, but no one talks about it. It is seen as a disgrace place. People feel bad, they feel lonely the same way. Even though in theory, yes, they can go see the company doctor, they can do XYZ, but there's a vision of what success looks like, etc. That is not helping. And I'll be honest, and Eva knows that's what happened to me. I was in corporate, went through burnout, etc. Etc. And none of that support and that awareness, you know, existed, you know, so even if I had access to a doctor, the mentality of people in that space made it that, you know, I felt ashamed and I struggled like crazy. Right. So the good thing that you guys have is that if people recognize that they have, there's something wrong and that you manage to have that. Just not with the creators, but as you said, the platforms, the brands, the agencies, the entire ecosystem and be that one voice, hopefully you'll find you'll be able to do, you know, good in the next few years on that front. And that's, that's the one thing that I wish you.

C (49:54)

Oh, thank you. Well, I also, I wish you also good mental health as well in this next era of your work. But no, it's really true. I think that there's an awareness. The problem is if you ask anyone, well, what are you doing? Or is there any help? Help, no one would be able to tell you where to go or what to do. So it's about making it more easy and accessible for people. And so people know where to go. And guess what? There are there. There's a lot of resources out there, and yet still people don't know where to turn. And so again, it's just about saying this is part of the foundation of this industry and we understand it, but what does that look like? In action.

B (50:33)

Right.

C (50:33)

When you act, what's the tangible action to it? And if we're building from scratch and we're saying this is new disrupt perspective, let's build from scratch together. Let's build it into the foundation of it versus as an afterthought.

A (50:46)

Yeah. This really important conversation and what happened is, you know, the creator economy wasn't something someone sat down and designed. Even, you know, the automotive industry, you know, it came together through, you know, accident and happenstance. But then once cars and roads were built, there was a system for it. Right. And then there became unions. We still feel so far away from it in the creator economy because it is so asymmetrical. There's not one and, you know, headquarters for it. So appreciate all the work that you're doing in this space. Loved collaborating with you on the creator economy map. It's always great to work with you and we'll do one of our VIP salon dinners where you two first met again soon, hopefully where both of you can be in the same place. But Shira, thanks so much for being on the pod. It's been amazing having you here.

C (51:34)

Yeah. I'm so appreciative. Thank you. Thanks for getting it and for having me in for the work you do. I'm such a fan. You thank. So thank you.

A (51:41)

Thanks for all your hard work. See you again soon.

B (51:43)

What an amazing episode. It's insane. So from where she's coming from, what she's done, what she does now, how she's like selfless. Right?

A (51:55)

Yeah. And you know, she has her business to run and she has her brand that she takes care of a great deal, but she feels, you know, and I don't mean to say this about her without her being here, but maternal over the creator because she's been at it since it was ignited. And I think her approach of trying to create a more stable mental health environment and frankly, just living peace of mind environment across the ecosystem is not just admirable, but I don't know that what we would do without her. She's a real prize for us all in the creator economy. So thank you, Shira for being here. So that leads us to our question of the week, which I, you know, that conversation really got me thinking about my relationship with social media, my relationship to my own metrics, which is not healthy. I will, I admit it and I will continue to admit. So let's throw this out there and I don't think we need to answer this as a close ended question here, but throw this to the audience. What is your relationship with social media either as a creator, as a user, as a poster? Do you obsess over the likes and reshares of your Instagram posts or your LinkedIn posts? Do you hire creators? And when you do, do you think about them as small industries or do you think about them as vendors, or do you think about them as humans? So I would throw that out there. I don't know what you think about that question, Halik. I didn't ask you permission for that first.

B (53:19)

No, I love it. I mean, we should have people send us notes, anything we read, everything that you send our way. Because I'd love to get a feel for how people do that. And myself, when we prepared for this, this, I read a lot of those things and I was like, that hit home, you know, a bit too close in some cases. And I have to say, especially in 2025 on LinkedIn and others, this whole thing about, you know, the metrics and how organic reach is decreasing, it got to me at the end of the year, but I've decided to not care at the beginning of this year and just like, keep, keep doing it regardless.

A (53:58)

I'm going to have to learn how to do that. Not care. Yeah. So I think that's, that's really crucial. Let'. All, let's all take this question of the week and examine our relationships with the creator economy, the social media economy, the social media platforms, and maybe try to take a healthier approach to it as this year progresses. This is a great episode, really important and fun and lovely to see. Shira, it's always great to see you. Marianne, I will see you next week in London, although this will air after we've seen each other. So I'll see you in London next week.

B (54:28)

Cheers, Sam.