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- [00:16]
A
Who here listens or watch the podcast on a regular basis. Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming. So, you know, our traditional open is me and Marion telling each other who we are. But we have a special guest here today, so we welcome to the Media Odyssey Podcast. That is Martin Trickey and that is Evan Shaparo. Let's get into it. So, Martin, you work at a company called Zoo55.
- [00:42]
B
I do.
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A
Which is part of ITV, which launched almost exactly a year ago.
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B
Yeah, just over a year ago. Yeah.
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A
And so how's it going? Not good, huh?
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B
No, no, it's going really well. It's just been quite hard work, I think I was just like.
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A
Yeah, you thought it was going to be easy.
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B
No, I didn't think it was going to be easy. I didn't. But no one said it was going to be this hard.
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A
I did. I told you it was going to be.
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B
No, it's just been a lot of hard work. But that's good. It's better to be busy. I mean, like, it's been full on but utterly brilliant. I'm absolutely loving it. So. And I'm still here. Which is. Which was, you know, that's good news
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A
for them and you.
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B
Yeah, well, definitely. Definitely for me.
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A
So what the fuck is zoo55?
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B
Okay, just the quick sales pitch. So zoo55 is the digital distribution arm of ITV studios. So the studios fundamentally, but we work really closely with the network business as well. And it's based on three main pillars. One is social video, which is YouTube, Facebook, putting up our archive, putting up content, putting up other people's content and monetizing that on those platforms. But also, you know, there's a job to be done around marketing of the shows we have and the kind of interaction between the two. Because what's marketing and what's revenue, it all gets quite blurry, to be honest. But we're happy as long as there are eyeballs on our shows and our ip. So there's that piece. Then there's also the Fast World as well, which I was quite new to when I joined, but that's been a real learning for me to look at the fast business, which is incredibly complicated with multiple different stakeholders.
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A
Yeah, it's not like YouTube where you just have to go around from OEM to OEM.
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B
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of deals, lots of people to meet, lots of conversation to have, but that's been absolutely fascinating. And then the third part is the games business, which is brilliant as well. So that splits down into two bits. One is the games licensing business. So we take our intellectual property and license it out to games developers and they make games out of it. So for example, the Love island, which is still huge, it was like the number eight most downloaded game in the US last year, which is insane. But there's also, we now have a studio, Metavision Studio, which builds stuff in Roblox and Fortnite. So a couple of examples. They do agency work. So I love this. So you know Mentos?
- [03:18]
A
Yeah, the stuff you put in Coke.
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B
That's exactly it. Because you could say the sweet you eat. No, no one thinks that. It's the thing you put in a cola barrel and it explodes.
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A
I mean, they do taste good.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
This is more fun.
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B
Totally. And if you were in Fortnite and you were Mentos, well, obviously what you're gonna day is make a bazooka, which is like a giant tube of Mentos attached to a giant tube of cola and you can go blow shit out. Really. So that, that was great. And also they take our IP and our shows and put it into Roblox. So Hell's Kitchen is crushing it in Roblox. Yeah, it's doing incredibly well, which is really amazing.
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A
Like, I don't. I talked to Ruth about this, Ruth Barry, who runs ITV Studios. And I asked her like, did you expect Graham Norton to be a star in Roblox? She's like, absolutely not.
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B
What you mean. Gordon Ramsay.
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A
Gordon Ramsay. Sorry.
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B
That's all right. I mean, Graham, I'm sure he would be a Starbucks.
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A
Well, as.
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B
Sorry. That's okay.
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A
All the Brits look alike to me.
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B
Gordon, Graham, I mean, they all begin
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A
with G. Yeah, right, exactly. But did you expect that kind of reaction out of that IP on Roblox? Because in my mind, although Roblox is aging up, it is, it is still a young person's platform. But he's a massive star there.
- [04:30]
B
No, he is a massive star. I mean, I think especially in the States. See, like season 25 of Hell's Kitchen is going out. So he is an incredibly well known person and celebrity. But I mean, you know, so that helps. But let's face it, it's quite good fun. Chopping, dicing, cooking, frying and then trying to beat the competition. It's a fun game fundamentally, and that's where it gets into it.
- [04:57]
A
So there's a lot I want to unpack there. I want to start with. And I don't want to spend too much time on Love island because we're going to be on stage together or in Lisbon Stream tv, we're going to be doing a case study around Love island called the Digital Prime Time, Right?
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B
Yep.
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A
So come to Lisbon Stream TV in April to see that case study. But I want to dig into something you said. I think the key word takeaway from the first sentence you spoke when you described Zoo55 is the archive.
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B
Yeah.
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A
There's been a lot made lately of a certain deal between two companies, YouTube and somebody who. Who will go nameless about producing original content for YouTube as opposed to putting up their archive. But what I am finding with other people that I work with, and I'd love to hear what you think is there's so much to be made of the existing archive for new audiences who haven't seen this stuff. Is that what you're finding?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is a fantastic history of amazing television that's been made over the years, and don't you want the opportunity for everybody to be able to go and discover it? If you think back to. Well, I think back to my youth, I would watch last year, sometime in the late 70s.
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A
Oh, my goodness.
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B
Yeah, I'd be. You know, you'd watch BBC2 and you'd watch Laurel and Hardy or some great classic black and white films, but they're not shown anymore. And so you. But you always felt there was an opportunity if you didn't see it now, you'd be able to watch the great stuff from times gone by. But. But the pressure of ratings, commercial pressures, means that that stuff doesn't necessarily rate anymore. And there are whole generations of people who are going, I don't even know it was there. And when they watch it, they go, this is fantastic. I mean, it's not, you know, we have a catalog of amazing films that we put in totality on YouTube, but old episodes of great shows and, you know, like Hell's Kitchen or River Moss,
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A
and it's finding entirely new audiences, generations younger.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
I mean, it's a real dramatic difference between your television and app audience and your YouTube audience, right?
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B
No, no, totally. I mean, well, I mean, let's face it, everybody's watching content on YouTube. It doesn't really matter what the age is. The assumption that, you know. So, yes, there is a younger audience finding shows that they may never have
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A
seen, but also your older audiences are now starting to watch your content on YouTube too.
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B
Totally. So the biggest demo for Coronation street, where you can watch full episodes day and day on the Coronation street channel, is 65 plus on YouTube.
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A
Really?
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B
Yep.
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A
And I do believe you have analytics of what device they're watching on.
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B
Yeah, that's mostly on the tv.
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A
Mostly on. What percentage of like a Coronation street do you think is watched on tv?
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B
Yeah, that you should ask.
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A
That's right. But it's a size.
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B
Yeah, no, no, definitely.
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A
Maybe even majority.
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B
Yeah, without a doubt.
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A
And so archive rediscovering new audiences on the television.
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B
We.
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A
Would you say that that makes YouTube TV?
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B
Well, what is TV? Because a television, I think forget the device.
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A
It's the lean back experience.
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B
Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, now, yes, when you look at what people are watching on our channels, they're watching television, Right, Exactly.
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A
They came there for Coronation street, which is a television show. They're watching it on a television. What are you finding? So I think crucially, another thing I want to unpack is there was a decision to take this enterprise, this operation, this effort out of the mothership of ITV and create its own thing. And part of that was the focus, but part of that was the ability really to become experts at audience building and community building. What's the difference between building a community on social video and building an audience on television? It's a tough question, but what's your. I mean, you've done both, you have a very storied history in both. Now, what are you finding makes the biggest difference?
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B
Well, you have to work a lot harder.
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A
I think it is a lot harder.
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B
Yeah. Because if you put a Show on in 1985 on BBC One at 8 o' clock or ITV, you'd get even more. At the same time, you'd get an audience. It didn't matter what it was, there
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A
was nothing else on.
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B
There was nothing else on. You had no choice. And now there is not infinite choice, but it's mind boggling. So to be able to cut through, to be the signal and not the noise is incredibly difficult. And the way that you can do that is. Well, first off, you've got to have great content and then you have to do all of the things you can to make it stand out. Be it a thumbnail or a title or the metadata that sits behind it, you have to make it discoverable. Because if you don't do that, I mean, come on, those are the basics. It's just to kind of do everything you can to make it as discoverable as possible. But then on top of that, the content has to do the work and you have to engage with the super fans, with the, with the influencers, with mavens. That was a word from back in the day.
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A
Yeah, Last decade. Yeah.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I said I'm old.
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A
That's okay.
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B
But all of the people who, you know, who are out there.
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A
And so what do you find is working from Discover? Because you're right. I mean, discovering something. The average streaming audience member on streamers, on apps, on TV are now, at least in the US taking 20 minutes to find a piece of content.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
And then you add the YouTube to it, which is literally every human on earth has a channel and is watching what is working. I know that it's a thousand little things like ab testing thumbnails and all that other kind of fonts and all that stuff, but do you find. Is there a larger theme building around how to build communities?
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B
So I think the font's probably quite low. Slow down. But if I take the example of a show that we have and a channel, we have River Monsters, which I
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A
think Otter's favorite show of all time.
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B
Thank you.
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A
Does everybody here know River Monsters? It's about monsters that live in the river.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
You get it now.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
It's good. But it's a great show.
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B
Yeah. And one, it's a great show because it has a great host that people can engage with. Right. Two, it's got a really exciting moment in it. You know, like, they're really big catches. Yeah. A big kind of fish. And that's fantastic. But I think the key thing then is it's about fishing now, if I give you that example. So my godson, he's mad keen for fishing, and when he found out that River Monsters was one of the shows
- [11:53]
A
that you'd be working on, he was
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B
like, oh, my God, that's so cool. Because he loves fishing. And I was like, it's because within a community of people who love fishing. And fishing is huge, isn't it? It's one of the biggest recreational pastimes in the world. So people are already a community around that and they pass that content around. So if you take the most popular video on River Monsters, that full episode, which has this giant turtle in it, and it's had hundreds of millions of views, Right. And then you look at it and you go, where's the spike? You know? And it isn't at the beginning, it's in the middle. And I couldn't believe the bit that is most shared, Right. I went to it. I wonder what it's going to be. It's going to be like. It was a guy tying a knot onto a hook.
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A
Because they wanted.
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B
Because everybody goes. They wanted to know how to tie
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A
that every Time I have to tie a Windsor knot. I go on YouTube. But there are two really amazing points there, which is one, in the old school days of push television, you put it on television and if it didn't pop on night one or week two, that was the end of it. Right. It was a failure. You move on. This is this concept, like you can put something up and months later, suddenly something catches fire. Right. And that was kind of the experience. And by the way, how old was this episode that.
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B
Oh, I mean, I don't know. It's got to be 15, 20 years old.
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A
And when did you put it up? In the last year?
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah, in the last year.
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A
And it has hundreds of millions.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
And so the idea that you can unlock new audience and new revenues.
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B
Oh, absolutely.
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A
From content that's basically sitting, gathering dust on a shelf. That's one of the hugest takeaways. And you think about the public broadcasters in this market alone, and how much content is just sitting on a shelf in that basement from Raiders of the Lost Ark, and how much value could be unlocked if they decided to all lean into it the way that you guys are.
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B
Well, I mean, the value is massive. But it's more complicated than that. In as much as. Because of the unique way that TV is made in the uk, the rights for those shows may well sit with the producers who did it in the first place.
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A
Right. Big problem.
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B
Yeah, well, it's also a problem, but it's also an opportunity for people. If they've got the rights to the shows and nobody's selling it because nobody's acquiring it or it's not getting recommissioned, then it's a whole new opportunity to get those fantastic shows that you sweated hours on getting commissioned and then producing and then putting out there. And then it gets shown once on a channel that's way down the epg and you go, well, that's. Yeah, but.
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A
So it was a waste of my time.
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B
There's an opportunity to bring it back to life, without a doubt. But also within that archive, if you do, if you are sitting a big. Not all archive content is equal. Some things haven't aged well.
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A
Our president. For.
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B
Some things haven't aged well.
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A
And, yeah, so in your archive, there is content that you would not resurface because it does not fit the context of the time.
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B
Yeah, no, without a doubt. I mean, it's because you actually look at it and you go, God, that's offensive. It's not like, oh, maybe I need to put a little disclaimer at the top to go. You know, maybe this was made at a time when it was acceptable to do these things. You're looking okay.
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A
Jesus Christ.
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B
But equally, and I'm not going to name names, but people can come up to me, ask me and guess is there is some content that when you look at our content id, that is the bits that people are uploading and other people are watching and then we're taking down is some of that content as well. So there is actually a demand for the stuff that it should just stay in the archive.
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A
Yeah. For everybody. So let's get to monetization because that was another part that I wanted to unpack there. It's not a one for one. So you're not going to necessarily trade out the advertising you're losing on the broadcast because viewership is going down for the same amount on YouTube. It's just not how that platform works. Plus you have the split with YouTube which is typically 45% but there are economics there and it feels like you're discovering what those are on a regular basis. So you're in the partner sales. So you guys sell your own inventory.
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B
We do.
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A
As opposed to exclusively allowing YouTube to do that. So a. When did you get into the partners program? How did that work? How did that process go for you and what's happened on the other side of that? Because I think. Sorry, no, no, no. I think most people do still do not. And I have said this directly to you, YouTube. I don't think they explain the partners program all that well. And so I would love to hear it from a partner who went through this process.
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B
So when you put a video on YouTube and you're in a position to be able to monetize it because let's face it, when you start off and you're just on your own, but you don't make any money out of it at all. If you get to a certain scale and you can monetize, that's great. But Google are doing all of the sales for you and they're filling in that inventory and every view you've got, you've got the opportunity to put in ads. Partner sales is whereby you've reached a scale and you have a cms, a content management system with multiple different channels in it and it's reached a scale where they go, do you want to be part of the partner sales program? But in order to do that you need a sales team. And that's like for most people that's a difficult thing to do. You're Trying to sell your program, you don't want to actually sell the advertising around it as well, fortunately, because ITV Studios works hand in glove with ITV Media and Entertainment, the network business. They have a sales team now anyway. No comment. They have been selling advertising since year dot and it was, you know, for them it was not a heavy lift. I think, you know, there was some
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A
learning to do to package the two together. Yeah.
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B
To do a brilliant job because also for the brands out there, the advertisers, they're going, whoa. So we can be on ITV1, we can be around the Six nations, we can be around the World cup, we can be around Coronation street, we can be around I'm A Celebrity, but also we can be on YouTube as well. And it was like, well, that's just a win, win. So. And what happens there is that they sell that and they have to sell it for more money than Google were going to do it. And Google still take their share because Google always take their share.
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A
You got to pay the toll to get across the bridge.
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B
Yeah, exactly. But. But they've done a brilliant job from a standing start to making significant revenues. And the great thing I think is there is that there are a few places around that can do that, but you do need a fair amount of scale. So we're sort of fortunate to be able to do that.
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A
And there are a couple different reasons why you can sell it for a higher premium than YouTube can. The number one reason is they're not selling your channel, they're selling audience. So YouTube sells across a total aggregated audience across their entire field. And there are things you can stay away from certain channels and be on certain channels, but they can't say, hey, you Want to buy ITV's channels? Because they're not allowed to do that. So you can say you can be on Coronation Street's channel or the River Monsters channel and you can charge a higher premium, as you would anyway.
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B
Yeah. Or you can bundle them together, there's lots of different ways.
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A
And bundle it with ITV proper too. ITVX and the channel as well. And it's been good for you guys.
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B
Yeah, it's been a good business.
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A
But do you imagine. But it's primarily still programmatic. Correct. Do you feel like there's a time where you'll get more into a brand direct?
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B
Without a doubt. I think 2026 will be the year that we're starting to look at that much, much more closely because the opportunity there to be able to create, well, to do a number of things either to get brands across existing archive, which. Which has great value, has great nostalgia and you can give a specific audience going, this reaches this audience in this location. Do you want to be a part of it? That's great. But then also to kind of go, do you want to own the content? Do you want to be part of making this with us? Because we have a wonderful track record of making great shows and we can do that with you. And then we can put it onto our network of social video channels, not just YouTube and Facebook where you can monetize, but the whole suite. Because for them, it's not just. Then, obviously, if they're a brand, they don't really care about the other advertisers. What they care about is eyeballs. And if we can provide that reach out there, then I think it's a really great opportunity. So the more that we can do that in the future, the better.
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A
And to a certain extent, there's numerous opportunities there. First of all, if you're putting a brand into a program, you're hardwiring it into the show itself. Sorry, YouTube. YouTube doesn't get any of that money to a certain extent.
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B
Yeah, well, but they've got the dynamic brand insertion could be coming soon.
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A
So that, I understand, is probably going to launch this year. So right now, if you did a brand spot, it's hardwired onto that show. And if that deal runs out and you want to put a new sponsor into that same show, you have to take down the show, lose all that traffic and then replace. Re upload it. What's going to happen, I believe, in the second half of this year is those spots are now going to be dynamically insertable. So creators who do branded spots with people in videos, they'll be able to upload a brand new branded spot without having to take down the whole video. And again, they keep a larger share of that revenue. So that's going to be a seminal moment in YouTube ad sales, I think.
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B
But I think the more exciting part is for brands to be part of the story and rather going, this is brought to you by. Which is like on the nose and crack. No, no, but you want to. In the conversations that you're having, there's not a sense of like you want massive product placement, it wants to be a part of it. But it's all about aligning brand values.
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A
Well, the Mentos Coca Cola example you gave is a really good one. And there are things that are just endemic to the content that you're making. All right, so what do you think? If you had to project out a year for Zoo 55. So year two on your second birthday. Yeah. Are there any big wins you are hoping to have between now and then?
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B
I think. Well, the partner sales bit is really interesting, but obviously a big part of our audience is in the States because we're a global play, so content works in English language.
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A
Well, crucially, Love Island. I don't know if you know this, Love island was the most streamed season of television last year.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which is super impressive when you think it was on Peacock and no one has Peacock.
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B
I've actually had it tattooed on.
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A
But it has half the install base of any other streamer in the US and it still was the most streamed show. It's really impressive. So there is a massive opportunity for you guys in the States and I
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B
think we want to be able to do more in terms of owning that inventory, the sales opportunity in that. Which is interesting, and working more closely with those partners to try to maximize the value. So I think for us, the States is a big growth area for us because there's. Because again, the UK audience, the UK environment, and you're probably going to touch on this later today, is quite different to the States.
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A
Super fucking old to begin with from a generational standpoint. But yeah, there's so much free television here that it's a completely different ecosystem.
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B
Totally. So we need to learn how that works in the States and we obviously got a great. We have a good run at making great shows there. But, you know, we need to work with Fox and NBC and all of those partners to work out how we can, you know, do a better job for everybody.
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A
How do you. Okay, so let's take off your Z55 hat for a second and then put on your student of the industry hat. Right. Because we've known each other about.
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B
That's the big point you want with
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A
the Dale the Dunce. No, you're. I think I consider you a learned person in the art of television. You used to work for Disco Bros. Now you work for itv. Take a snapshot of where the UK TV ecosystem is. I wrote a piece this week which was basically a diagnosis which was not so great. What were your thoughts on that piece? So I basically said, this is the year to change or you will get left in the dustbin of history. What did you think of that? What did you think of that take. And you don't have to compliment me because Marion always comes at me hard on these podcasts.
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B
I think it was quite depressing from being inside the industry point of view. But there's still an opportunity to change. I think the direction of travel is pretty obvious, as all of your lovely charts show. The rise of the streamers, but also crucially, the rise of, of YouTube, TikTok, et cetera. They're taking up everybody's attention. And for the broadcast industry to remain relevant, it has to continue to create great content, which it does brilliantly well. But also look at the models by which it distributes it and monetizes it. And I suspect it's going to be. It's going to be a mixed bag of things that plays out in the end because you've got to lay a number of different bets. But if you focus, if you put all of your eggs into one basket, that isn't going to work. The monopolies that free to air broadcasters had in the 60s and 70s and 80s is gone. That's never going to come back again unless the only way that can happen is if there's some new technology which brings in something that only they can do. Because let's face it, the broadcast as a thing is kind of a blip in history. Peer to peer and social is the way that people are communicated to and told stories. Since cave painting. Yeah.
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A
Broadcast was a moment in time.
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B
Broadcast was a moment in time and I think that's kind of. That moment is gone and we're back to kind of people telling stories to each other in whichever way they can. And if you have stories you want to tell and you want to make a living out of doing that, then you have to find the right medium in which to do it. And that might mean that you tell the stories and you make it for a certain amount of money that is only in certain categories, but be cognizant of that fact and then make the content that will fit into your business model, I suppose. And if you're in the pure broadcast model, then I think that, well, I mean, ITV PLC has done that. They went, we've got these amazingly successful linear channels, but we've also got an OTT streamer and then we're going to go into YouTube. So we run all the channels for, for the network side of things as well. So they've gone that and it's been incremental audience. It's really worked. Embrace it, go for it, because if you don't, then it's probably not going to work.
- [27:22]
A
Yeah. The premise that the piece had, and I'll be talking about this at 5 o' clock today, right here on this stage, is that I think everybody thought that streaming would replace television, that it would be a one to one swap. And 55% of the British population are millennials and younger. They did not grow up with the same broadcast habits of their parents and their grandparents. And for them, the time that we grew up with spending on television has been replaced by a combination of streaming and social video. It is not just streaming. In fact, they watch less streaming than the older generations. And so this idea that you can get 100% of the audience that you used to get on streaming is not true.
- [28:06]
B
No.
- [28:07]
A
Or television. It's not true. You need to also get into social video. So with the minute or so we have left. So you're also. You do this for itv, but you're white labeling your services now for other partners too as well?
- [28:22]
B
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. As I said, we've created a load of channels. You could go back through the archive and then just create channels out of the stuff that you've got. But as I mentioned, it's not. There's some stuff that just isn't as good. People don't have the rights to. So within the channels we've got like history and true crime and documentary. We're actively out there going, can we work with partners who've got shows with catalogs that we can bring in?
- [28:48]
A
So production companies and other may not have a digital alarm and it's a scale.
- [28:52]
B
And then you also go, we can work and we can do the ad sales on the top of it. So we like adding value as well. So I think for us to be able to, to continue to grow, we need to be able to get more great content and sort of build strategic partnerships. It's not just a kind of like, it's not white labeling exactly. It's just going, look, we've got this output, we've got these channels. We want your shows as if we were running an old school linear channel. It's the same thing. We want great content.
- [29:21]
A
It's a pretty similar operation. It's a different set of mechanics. But the concepts.
- [29:24]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [29:25]
A
Very similar.
- [29:26]
B
No, no, there's some similarities.
- [29:27]
A
So, I mean, yesterday we saw Tony on stage here from Goal Hanger. He used to work at itv, founded this really immensely popular podcasting company that's crushing it all over the world. You come from traditional television and now you're in the digital world. What do you think the key to evolving your mind? Because we're not young people, but we still manage to somehow keep up. What is your secret to continuing to be relevant and ahead of that curve?
- [29:54]
B
To be fair. I only ever made one TV show, maybe two. So I mostly spent my time bashing my I've worked within broadcasters my whole time. Just been bashing my head against the wall and then I decided to stop doing that. So I think if you want to carry on thinking and learning, stopping hurting yourself is quite good.
- [30:13]
A
Choose your right arguments. Exactly. Pick the battle. But I mean, it's really nice to see a company like ITV or an organization like ITV decide to really get out ahead of the curve. It's so exciting and you're enjoying it there. And you're going to join us on stage in Lisbon to do the digital primetime Love island case study.
- [30:30]
B
Yeah, looking forward to it.
- [30:31]
A
We'll see you in Lisbon.
- [30:33]
B
Thank you very much.
- [30:34]
A
Thank you all for tuning in. Thank you for being here. This is the Mediatority podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much,
- [30:45]
B
Sam.