B (5:38)

Thank you, Mel. It's so exciting to be here.

A (5:41)

I am so excited because I really want to make being super fit and healthier and happier easy. And I do believe that you can help me change my mindset. So here's how I want to start. Could you tell the person listening, how would my life be different? How might it be better if I take all of this amazing research and all the tools you're about to teach us and I just apply it to my life? What's going to happen?

B (6:12)

So, Mel, my life's work as an academic, but also as a human is to understand the power of the human mind. So I think we all know this, right? There is this power of belief, of mindset. And the people who are listening to your show are especially clued into this fact. But I'd like to go a little deeper and be a little bit more specific. Right. So when we say things like, oh, just believe or think positive or, you know, change your mindset, let's like, what do we really mean?

A (6:51)

I don't know. I'm hoping you're gonna tell me because I think that a lot of us do feel like, okay, I just have to believe, but you're here to teach us. No, there's actually something deeper and there's something more accessible.

B (7:05)

Yeah, I think we need to be more specific. So say you have something stressful on the horizon, like a job interview. Or say you're trying to lose weight or get healthier, or say you were just diagnosed with cancer. Cancer or some other health diagnosis. Like it really matters to know. What should you believe? What is the best mindset to have? Like, how much does that matter? And most importantly, what can we do to adopt more useful mindsets? So the goal, as I see it for our conversation today, is to help people to become more sophisticated and more skillful and understanding and applying the power of the human mind.

A (7:51)

Whoa. I love the idea that there is this skill that you can develop to be able to tap into the power of your mind. It goes way beyond sort of just your beliefs, but rather understanding the mechanics of how it works. Now, Dr. Crumb, given that you are a world renowned researcher on mindset, maybe we should just start with vocabulary.

B (8:20)

Yeah.

A (8:20)

What exactly is mindset? What does that mean?

B (8:23)

Yes. So mindsets are quite literally settings of the mind. So they're.

A (8:30)

Wait a minute, hold on a second. Okay. And now I feel almost like an idiot because I don't. I've never heard anybody explain what is so obvious. Now that you said it. Mindset is the settings in your mind.

B (8:49)

Exactly. Now, there are settings, they're lenses or frames of mind which orient us to a particular set of experiences.

A (8:59)

Okay.

B (9:00)

Okay. So our minds can be set in many ways. The mindsets that I'm interested in that have sort of occupied my thinking and research are the mindsets that are set by our core beliefs.

A (9:14)

Okay.

B (9:15)

So our core beliefs are our beliefs about the essence of what something is and why it matters.

A (9:22)

Okay, can you give me an example? Cause already I'm like, I don't know.

B (9:25)

If I'm all following this. So an example. So we have mindsets about many things in the world, in fact, and hold.

A (9:32)

And let me just. Because I want to track with you, because I'm so excited to really think about mindset as simply the settings in your mind. And what I love about the idea of thinking about mindset as the settings in your mind is that even somebody like me, who is not a world renowned Stanford researcher like you, understands at a basic level. Wait a minute. If there are settings in my mind, then clearly someone or something put those settings in place. And if there's settings in my mind and I know about them, I have the ability, by Learning from you, Dr. Crum, how to change the settings.

B (10:09)

Exactly.

A (10:10)

That's what we're learning today.

B (10:11)

That's what we're learning.

A (10:12)

Oh, my God, I love this.

B (10:13)

And anybody can become aware of and change the settings and.

A (10:16)

Okay, so give us an example of what you mean when you say settings in the mind and how it impacts your life, maybe right now and you didn't even realize it.

B (10:25)

Yes. So we have mindsets about many things. My colleague, Jared Clifton does great work looking at mindsets about the world as one big place. So do you believe the world is dangerous or safe? That's a mindset. Do you believe the world is just or unjust? You know, kind of where you are on that continuum is a mindset. Do you believe the world is abundant, you know, full of resources enough for all of us to go around, or do you believe it's scarce? That's a mindset. Carol Dweck, David Yeager have done really good work on mindsets about intelligence or your abilities. So do you believe that your intelligence is fixed, set in stone, or. Or do you believe it's malleable, it can grow, it can improve, it can change. The work that we do in our lab is looking at mindsets about things related to our health. Oh, so take stress. Do you believe that stress is going to kill you or Is it going to make you stronger? What's your belief about healthy food? Do you believe healthy foods are the disgusting and depriving option, or do you believe healthy foods are actually indulgent and delicious? What about cancer? Do you believe that cancer is an unmitigated catastrophe? Or might cancer be manageable? Might it even be an opportunity to make positive changes in your lives? So these mindsets, Mel, they're not true or false. They're not right or wrong. They're oversimplified, highly evaluative judgments about the nature of these things.

A (12:08)

Huh?

B (12:09)

But they matter in shaping our lives. In fact, they create our realities, and they create our realities not through some kind of magic, but by design. So our mindsets change what we pay attention to. If you believe the world is dangerous, you're going to see more danger in the world. Our mindsets change how we feel and expect to feel emotionally. Our mindsets change what we're motivated to do and how we actually engage and behave in the world. And what our work has shown is that our mindsets also change our bodies. They change how our bodies physiologically prepare and respond to different things.

A (12:52)

I think that last thing is super fascinating, and it's gonna help us understand why the settings in our mind, which we can change, matter so much. And I would love to have you explain your famous milkshake study. If there was ever a scientific study that I wanted to be a subject in, I think it would be a study called the milkshake study. But could you explain what this study is, how you conducted it, and more importantly, what did you find in the famous milkshake study? And what does it tell us about what's possible regarding the settings of your mind and the power that it has over your health?

B (13:35)

Yes. Great. So the milkshake study was very simple, actually. We brought people into the metabolic research lab. This was done at Yale University. And we had them come in two time points, and we had them drink a 350 calorie milkshake.

A (13:53)

Okay, what flavor?

B (13:54)

It was vanilla. Just a simple vanilla milkshake. And meanwhile, while they were drinking this milkshake, we had them hooked up to an IV and the reason we had them hooked up to an IV Is we were measuring their blood.

A (14:06)

Okay.

B (14:07)

And in particular, we were interested in this hormone called ghrelin.

A (14:10)

Ghrelin.

B (14:11)

Ghrelin.

A (14:11)

Okay, ghrelin.

B (14:12)

So ghrelin. Medical experts call this the hunger hormone.

A (14:15)

Okay.

B (14:16)

So the hunger hormone is thought to help regulate hunger and metabolism. So when ghrelin levels are high, that signals to your Brain, hey, seek out food. Right. And it also slows metabolism until you actually secure and consume that food.

A (14:34)

Okay.

B (14:34)

And theoretically, it had been assumed that in proportion to the amount of calories you eat, ghrelin levels will drop. So if we go out and have a burger and a milkshake and a lot of calories, ghrelin levels will plummet, which signal to the brain, okay, you can stop prioritizing food consumption and rev up the metabolism in the body to burn the food that you just now. Of course, if we didn't get food or if we only ate a little bit of food, ghrelin levels would drop only slightly, therefore kind of perpetuating those hunger signals and keeping metabolism slow.

A (15:08)

Okay.

B (15:09)

Okay.

A (15:10)

So you give these people these milkshakes, you put an IV in them, and what do you suspect would happen?

B (15:15)

Yes. So if we had just given them the same milkshake at two different time points, and it's the same person, both time points, same milkshake, we would assume that their bodies would respond exactly the same.

A (15:30)

Okay, so what did you do in the study, though?

B (15:32)

Yes, so here's the catch. So I'm a psychologist, so I like to play around with how does changing what we believe to be true change how our bodies respond? So in the study, we actually gave them a 350 calorie milkshake. At one point, we told them it was an indulgent milkshake. 620 calories, high fat, high sugar. This is really the decadence you deserve. Right. We even had on the label like decadence you deserve. And the other time point, we told them it was a sensible shake. It was called the sensa shake. It was light and fit. It was 140 calories, low fat, low sugar. This is sort of your diet shake.

A (16:14)

Okay, so just so I'm tracking.

B (16:16)

Yes.

A (16:17)

I'm in your study one day I come in and you give me the sensible shake, and I'm told, and I believe it's 140 calories, and that's one shake. Another time, I come in at the exact same time, I am told. Now it's the same shake I'm drinking, but I am told, and it is labeled the indulgent shake, and it's 600. It's the luxury that I deserve. And so that's the information I'm told, and I'm assuming these are now manipulating the settings in my mind about what I'm actually consuming. What did you find when you did that with people?

B (16:55)

Essentially, the labels were setting their minds. The label either put Them in the mindset of indulgent, you know, high caloric shake, or the mindset of sensibility, somewhat of restraint. Right, the low fat option. What we found was that their ghrelin response differed in response to simply changing the mindset. And in particular, when they thought they were consuming the indulgent shake, their body's ghrelin levels dropped at a threefold rate compared to when they thought they were consuming a sensible shake. So in essence, what this means is when they thought they were consuming indulgently, their bodies responded as if it had had more food.

A (17:41)

What? Wait, so you're saying that by changing just the settings in the mind, by having somebody believe that the shake was more caloric and more indulgent, it actually changed the biology that you could measure in someone's body. The body responded based on the mindset changes.

B (18:06)

Yep, that's exactly right.

A (18:07)

That's insane.

B (18:09)

Well, it's not all that insane when you start to think about it. Right. The brain's whole job is to help monitor the external environment, assess the internal environment, and use information from both of those things to keep us alive, keep us healthy. And when the brain thinks, oh, you're not getting enough food, it says, keep hunger strong, keep metabolism low, because its job is to help us stay alive. So it's surprising because we have this kind of oversimplified assumption that a healthy weight is kind of calories in, calories out, but it's really not that simple. And what this study shows is that our mindsets also matter. The settings of the mind that we're in when we eat will change how we experience that food, both on a taste level, but also on a physical level.

A (19:06)

I think this is so exciting. And one of the things that I really like about this is that. Okay, so I'm gonna dumb this down. Okay. For myself. So I would have thought that if you slurp down a milkshake, whatever it is that you drank, that would be the singular input that your body then processes and responds to. But what you're saying is that the research is very clear that when you get very intentional about the settings in the mind, the settings in the mind are also. Are communicating to the body at all times and also sending information to the body that changes the biology of what you're experiencing. That's extraordinary. Yep. And I cannot wait to hear the specific ways we can use this finding that your settings in the mind. I'm gonna keep calling it that. I hope you don't mind, doc, because I literally just like that versus Mindset. Cause mindset feels. Mindset always did feel kind of like attitude. You are talking about an intentional setting that helps you create a specific outcome.

B (20:14)

Yeah.

A (20:15)

And I have another example that I wanted to share with you. When you were coming all the way here, we were all so excited. And the production assistant on this show got over a decade long fear of flying simply by listening to your TED talk and repeating to herself over and over again. She would say on this flight, this is just an old setting in my mind. And she says that that one technique from you helped her get over her fear of flying. In fact, I want you to hear from Melissa.

B (20:59)

Hi Dr. Crumb. I've been afraid of flying for 10 years. And every time I fly I get super overwhelmed with the idea that I could potentially have a medical emergency in flight after an experience 10 years ago. And my body follows suit with physical symptoms that I'm sick. But since listening to your TED talk, I was really able to update the setting in my mind and remind myself that my physical sensations only feel so real because I'm working myself up into believing them. So last week I flew round trip from Boston to la and for the first time in forever, I felt no sickness or anxiety. It's been so incredible putting your work into practice to make my mindset work with me, not against.

A (21:42)

I love this. And here's what I want to ask you because I have personally the desire to turn this now into a personal coaching session for settings of my own mind and my kids minds. But what I wanna know is if she were on the plane and she were repeating to herself, this is just an old setting in my mind. And that intentional saying these are just old settings in my mind allowed her to not get all worked up and feel the physical sensations that freaked her out. Can you explain, Dr. Crum, what's actually happening in this example?

B (22:26)

Yeah. Well, first of all, Alyssa, thank you for sharing that. It's always so wonderful to know that the work we are doing is useful. What's happening there is really powerful, right? Which is first going back. Her mind was set by probably some experience that she had as a child where she maybe got sick on a plane or maybe was on a plane and felt deep fear and anxiety or lack of control or whatever it was on that plane. And that memory kind of forged in her mind as a setting. Right. That you know, if you fly, you, you will feel horrible, you will feel out of control, you will feel sick, you will feel. I don't know what it was, but I'm guessing there was some association that was made between flying and physical symptoms. Now, what's kind of glitchy about the mind is that. And the body is that learning that what the mind does is thinks, oh, I need to protect you from ever experiencing that again, right? So it thinks, let's avoid planes, right? Let's avoid any kind of situations when you're going to feel like that again. But it also perpetuates this belief that if she flies, she's going to feel those things. Now, the belief and the kind of desire to protect was well intended. But what happens is that belief creates the reality. So when she gets on a plane feeling, I'm afraid to fly because I'm going to get sick, go back to those four mechanisms. What does she start paying attention to? All the ways in which she's a little clammy, all the ways in which she's a little nauseous, all the ways in which she might, you know, feel her heart racing, maybe she's going to pass out, right? We all have these symptoms, like, all the time, right? This is what's, you know, so interesting about our bodies. If you ask yourself to pay attention to your body, you realize sometimes we do feel nauseous. Sometimes our heart races. It's like happening all the time. Now, she has a reason to find that. So that belief changed her attention, changed her emotions. You know, anxiety off the charts, fear off the charts. It probably changed what she was motivated to do. I'm assuming she didn't take many flights for many years. And physiologically those symptoms get created. So the beliefs were intended to protect her, the settings of the mind were intended to protect her, but they were actually creating the reality that she feared most. So what's beautiful in her example is that you don't need 10 years of therapy necessarily to kind of shift the settings in your mind. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for therapy. And sometimes we do need many years to explore the origins of our beliefs. But in her case, she realized, oh, I don't need that setting anymore. Thank you, body, for trying to protect me. But I don't need that. I just don't need that setting anymore. And that alone, that awareness sometimes is enough to let it go.

A (25:37)

There's so much I wanna make sure that we unpack in that. And I love what you said when you said, sometimes you don't need 10 years of therapy to figure it out. And I don't remember who said it, but I love this saying that if you didn't talk yourself into It. You probably can't talk yourself out of it. And your work. And what you're teaching us today is that the experiences of your life, they create settings in your mind. And they may work for periods of your life, but there will come a moment in your life where you can start to access your research and say, wait a minute. If I don't like the way I'm experiencing something, let me just consider that there's old settings in my mind that I don't need anymore. And anytime I decide to, I can change the settings. And I also would assume that you don't necessarily have to know the originating event. You just have to know that there are certain settings in your mind that every time you get on a plane or every time you get a little tingle in your stomach, you feel like, oh, gosh, I'm gonna throw up. And then you start working yourself up into a tizzy. That's an old setting. And so I love that because I feel like this is almost like myself doing tinkering with my own settings in my mind for any kind of situation. There's another thing that you said very quickly that I want to make sure I understand. You basically said, the reason why settings are so important, if I'm getting this right, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is that these settings, the way you see the world, affect four mechanisms. And if I heard you correctly, it's that these settings in your mind tell you what to focus on. They have an impact on the emotions you feel. They also impact what you're motivated to do or not do, in this case, getting on a plane or not. And they have a physiological impact. So could you take the example of being afraid of flying, which is an old setting. A lot of people have that one. And tell me exactly how does the setting that I'm either gonna get sick on this plane or this plane's gonna go down or something terrible's gonna happen. The old setting, how does that setting impact your attention, your emotions, your motivation, and your physiology? Just so we kind of get the power of these settings over these four things and how that then impacts your behavior.

B (28:14)

Yeah. So the first thing I would wanna do is figure out what the sett. So sometimes fear of flying is about the core belief about flying. Right. Like, flying is dangerous.

A (28:24)

Okay.

B (28:25)

I think in Alyssa's case, what I'm hearing, you know, I'd like to talk with her more about. It was actually a core belief about her body. Right. That she was worried that she was going to get sick, that she was going to have a medical emergency on that flight. And so it was the setting of her mind that was a distrust in her body. My body is not only not capable, but might turn on me in this very moment.

A (28:52)

Gotcha.

B (28:52)

And flying was fearful for her because there's no help to be had on a flight. You can't get any further from medical attention when you're up in the air. And so that belief of my body can't be trusted. If we can work with that, how does that change what she pays attention to? She starts noticing all the ways in which her body is a little off today isn't really working for her. She starts feeling anxious, which, as you know, further exacerbates physical symptoms in the body, maybe behaviorally. And Alyssa, sorry if I'm putting, you know, words in your mouth and you can correct the record if it's wrong, but a lot of people, they take pills or they drink. Right. Which could cause more physical symptoms on the plight on the flight. Right. So these mechanisms of what do you notice? What are you doing, how are you feeling emotionally and what is going on physically are all kind of working together. And they're working together, ironically, to create the reality that you fear most, which is your body is going to turn on you in that moment.

A (30:06)

You know, I've never had anybody explain the actual science of the mind, body, and the connection and really do it in a way where I now think I understand what you mean. When it's that your mindset is creating the reality. What you're teaching us and what your research proves is that the settings in your mind, like, let's take a bunch of ones that people have just to start throwing it out, then we'll kind of get into the health stuff. Is that if you believe that you've completely screwed up your life, it's too late to change. You're never gonna get out of debt. You're never gonna find the one, whatever it may be, that setting in your mind becomes the. It drives what you focus on. So you start to see everybody that's coupled up. You see everybody that's successful. You start to think that you're the only one that creates a lot of emotions for you. That probably makes you feel very unmotivated to do the things that would change your life pretty drastically over time. And your work also says those settings in your mind. I'm too late. I can't change. Things don't work out for me. Absolutely changes the way your body feels physiologically. Wow. And so we're gonna talk about some of the ways we can leverage this, both for self awareness, but more importantly, to make change easier and to have us learn how to change the settings so that our minds are helping us and positively helping us stay motivated and focus on the right things and feel what we wanna feel, which Alyssa just did by just watching your talk, which is incredible.

B (31:50)

I just wanna say that I think I just feel for all of us, right? We. We're doing our best, right? You really want to find the love of your life, and you haven't found them yet. And, you know, your brain, like, wants to help, right? But it latches on to these oversimplified statements like, I'll always be alone or I'll never be enough, or, you know, you want to be healthy. And then you're. But something happens and you think, oh, my body's not good enough, right? These, again, they're. These are mindsets. They're core beliefs about the nature, essence of who we are, how our bodies are, what life has in store for us. But I'll say it again, like, they're not true or false. They are not right or wrong. They're oversimplified, highly evaluative judgments that we make in order to simplify things. But they matter, right? So choose wisely and know that the choices that you make interact with the world in ways that make it so. And the other thing I'll just say in response is we shouldn't be to blame for our beliefs, our settings in the mind. And we can talk about this. They're shaped by our cultures, by our upbringing, by our parents, in ways that we may never fully understand. So. But while we shouldn't be to blame for them, we should know that we can be empowered to change them, right? At any given moment, at any given time, you have the power to flip the switch.

A (33:30)

When do these settings in the mind start to, like, latch into your brain? That's a very scientific way to say it. I know, but. No, but I was just sitting here going, like, oh, interesting. Like, obviously a baby and their brain, in that, like, kind of spongy theta state, is absorbing language very rapidly and learning and all this stuff. And, you know, they learning how to walk and fall and all like it. The rate that a baby's brain can learn is amazing. But when, developmentally, do these settings in the mind that impact belief, that impact your biology and emotion and motivation and attention, when do those start happening?

B (34:11)

They start happening the minute you're born, and they stop happening the moment you die. Right? Our brains are constantly trying to make sense of the world and it's taking in this information, but it's too much. It's too much to take in. So it's relying on these simplified assumptions or theories. Right. So it's like, oh, oh, this person's safe. Check, set it for and forget it. Oh, like your body can heal itself with time. Oh, check, set that and forget it. Oh, you're the type of person who gets sick on planes. You better worry about that. Right. So. And then it can be updated, but oftentimes it's searching for information. It gets things that it thinks are important and then it's kind of set, if that makes sense.

A (34:56)

So, you know what I just got? All of these settings that you're talking about came from outside. And what your work is going to help us do is maybe for the first time in your entire life, lift up the hood and create settings in your mind from the inside that work for you.

B (35:18)

Yeah. And this is why I love the science of mindset and the practice of mindset. Because, yeah, they come from many things, from our upbringing, from influential others, from the cultures we're embedded in, from. But they can also be consciously set by ourselves. We can choose to consciously change the settings of our mind. And that's where things get really fun and empowering.

A (35:43)

I just love what you're teaching us. This is incredible. And it makes so much sense. What you believe changes how your body responds. And if that idea is blowing your mind, if you're thinking of people that you know need to change the settings in your mind, but you haven't been able to. Let's see if Dr. Crum can. Okay, share this with people in your life. Let Dr. Crum do the change making so you don't have to and don't go anywhere because we've got a heck of a lot more. What more could there be? A lot more from Dr. Crum after this short break. Stay with me. Finding the precise foundation that makes you and your wallet feel confident has always been a challenge until now. I'm excited to tell you more about something I've been loving. L' Oreal Paris True Match foundation and why It's Worthy of youf. Why it's good for all skin types, especially for my listeners with mature and sensitive skin. The formula is incredibly hydrating and won't settle into fine lines. And, you know, my skin has changed over time. I'm 57, so I have more dryness, more uneven tone and texture. L' Oreal Paris True Match foundation keeps up with all of it. It glides on, blends seamlessly and stays put, giving you a smooth, fresh face. Now matching L' Oreal has cracked the code here with over 47 shades. Shade matching was surprisingly easy. I went with C4 cool light medium. It adapts to your skin tone, matching your natural complexion so you don't end up with a harsh line on your jaw. Find your true match on Amazon for makeup that's worthy of you because you're worth it. This time of the year is chaotic, stress is high, treats are everywhere, and you're crashing by 3pm if you want to feel sharper, more focused and beat the cravings, it's time to get to know your glucose with Lingo. A real time glucose wearable for you. Staying in a healthy glucose range isn't one size fits all. It's normal to fluctuate. What matters is learning your patterns and building habits that work for you. You see how your glucose responds to what you eat, how you move, even how you sleep. I mean, here's the thing. One in three adults are living with prediabetes and most have no idea. But tuning in early and making lifestyle changes can transform your health for today and tomorrow. Get to know your glucose today with Lingo designed for you by Abbott. This holiday season through December 31st. Use code MEL10@hellolingo.com to get 10% off a lingo plan. Purchase one use per customer. This offer cannot be combined with other offers, US and Puerto Rico only. The Lingo Glucose system is for users 18 years and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. Individual responses may vary. The Mel Robbins Podcast is brought to you by Sheraton Hotels. You know what's the most overlooked hotel amenity? The lobby. Usually it's just where you check in and check out, but that's all changed with Sheridan's lobbies. Redesigned as a place to work, relax, recharge. The community table doubles as your co working space by day, your team's hangout spot at night. Need quiet? Duck into a soundproof booth with coworkers, reserve a tech enabled studio space and the All Day Cafe and more by Sheridan fuels you for all of it. Sheridan the World's Gathering Place part of Marriott Bonvoy book now via sheridan.com. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins and you and I are learning about this exciting research and how to change the settings in our mind with Stanford's Dr. Aaliyah Crum. Let's dig into it. One of your favorite topics is the placebo effect. What is the placebo effect, how does it work in our minds and our bodies? And then let's talk about how your research proves that we can use it to our advantage.

B (39:36)

Yes. The placebo effect is typically understood in the context of a randomized placebo controlled.

A (39:42)

Trial, which is for somebody who doesn't know what the heck that means. What is that?

B (39:46)

Yeah. So in a clinical trial, people are brought in and they're randomly put into two different groups, typically to test a new drug or medication. And half of the people will get the active drug or medication.

A (39:59)

Mean, like the real one.

B (40:00)

The real one, the real thing. The other half. Half will get a. The exact same sort of capsule, but there'll be nothing in it, or it'll be an inactive substance. So that is called the placebo.

A (40:12)

Okay.

B (40:13)

Now, clinical trials are important for testing the specific efficacy or effect of a new drug.

A (40:20)

Okay.

B (40:20)

Right. So in a clinical trial, they'll bring people in, they put them in these two groups, they'll measure the effect, and then they'll subtract out any effect that happens to occur when you're on the placebo. Right. Cause the assumption is that's not real. Right. What's real is in the capsule. If anything else happened because you believed you were getting a real pill or you were just taking a pill, the act of taking a pill or the feeling of being cared for, that's not real medicine. So let's just subtract that out.

A (40:50)

Okay.

B (40:51)

Now, what's interesting and people have caught on with, is that in almost all of these trials, the placebo tends to work to some degree. So let me.

A (41:02)

Let me just translate this. So make sure I'm tracking. So if you're doing like some sort of clinical trial and you've got the real drug that's supposed to treat some medical condition or whatever, you got that group taking that, and then you measure whether or not the drug works. There's this whole other group taking the placebo. Basically, you're getting a sugar pill that's fake.

B (41:22)

Yep.

A (41:22)

It's not got any clinical research behind it in terms of its ability to do anything. But the mere fact that you believe that you are getting medication to help with this condition, you are saying, physiologically, biologically, people's symptoms do tend to get better in some cases. So what does that tell you about what the placebo effect actually is?

B (41:48)

Yeah, so it's really interesting. And it's lots of different things. So like a placebo, you know, simply believing that you're taking a pain. Pain reliever.

A (41:59)

Yeah.

B (42:00)

Relieves Your pain. Simply believing you're taking a sleep aid helps you fall asleep. Placebos can calm your asthma, reduce your immune response, lower your blood pressure. Right? And it's not just that these placebos make people say they feel better, but they're actually real neurobiological correlates. So believing you're taking a real pain medication can release endogenous opioids in the brain. Placebo. Parkinson medications activate dopaminergic systems in the brain. You can condition placebo immune responses. Right, so it's, you know, it begs the question as you just ask, like, what is actually happening?

A (42:47)

Yeah, what is happening?

B (42:48)

So obviously it's not the fake pill, right? Like, there's no magic in the sugar pill. What we think is happening is it's essentially the combined effect of three things. So first is the ability of your body to heal itself with time. Okay, now this often gets discounted, but I don't think we should discount it. Right? Your body has an incredible, remarkably efficient supply systems, right? You have a growth promoting endocrine system. You have a adaptive immune system. You have a regulating nervous system. And they're all trying to work for you, right? So those systems in the body, and they heal us from most things we experience in life, even when we're not paying attention. But those natural systems in the body can be activated by our mindsets, by the belief that you're in good hands, that this condition is managed, that you're going to be okay. Those beliefs prioritize and prepare the systems to align in your body. And you know, the other thing that's important here is it's not, you know, your beliefs don't come out of nowhere, right? They're shaped by the social context, the, the words the doctor shares, the, their bedside manner, the label or branding of the drugs, right? The white coat, the medical credentials, the medical ritual, all of these things can shape our mindsets, which can in turn activate the body's self healing systems.

A (44:29)

That's so cool. So are you saying that the settings in your mind can act almost like a placebo and turn on like, things like, like how do you use this to your advantage? You know what I'm saying? Like, cause I know that the advice is not we're gonna pop a sugar pill and then pretend that now I'm motivated to exercise. But how can you use the fact that the placebo effect proves what the milkshake study proves?

B (45:00)

Yes, so that's such a good question. Cause we get kind of fascinated by placebo effects. We're like ooh how cool. Like, you respond by doing nothing. Like a fake pill magically makes you feel better. But if you think about it, while the randomized control trial is good for testing the specific effects of the medication, it's, you know, what we forget when we actually go out and prescribe the medication, or in the practice of Medic of Medicine, in the reality of medicine, when we take a pill, any effect of that pill is going to come not just from the drug inside, but from the belief that the pill is going to work. Right? So the total effect of anything we do, whether that's medication or what we eat, for example, is a combined effect of what's actually in it and what you believe to be true about it. So this is really empowering, right? It no longer needs to be, oh, is it the medication or the mind? Is it, you know, the mind over matter? No, it's mind and matter. It's mind and medication. So if you want to heal, if you want to improve your symptoms. Right. Take the best medication we have if it's relevant to you, but also adopt useful mindsets about it. I think one study that really helps to kind of make this, what I'm saying, concrete, okay, is this great study. It was done by Cam Hansen and colleagues. And what they did was they took people who had, you know, persistent migraines, and they followed people as they got these migraines in their life, and every time they got a migraine, they were given a pill. Now, sometimes they were given the real pill, Amaxal, which is an actual real medication for migraines. Other times they were given a placebo, an inactive fake pill. So, like the original clinical trial, but they had a catch to it. So what they did was sometimes when they were given the Maxal, they told the people it was Max salt. Other times they told. They gave people the real Max Salt, but they told them it was a placebo.

A (47:27)

Huh.

B (47:27)

When they gave people a placebo, sometimes they told them it was Max Salt, and other times they told them it was a placebo. So now you're.

A (47:35)

They really screwed everybody. Okay, so what did you find?

B (47:38)

Studies. What they found was. Was fascinating, right? So the most pain relief came from the Maxal, labeled Maxalt.

A (47:47)

Okay. So when you were told it was the right pill and you took the pill, you got the most relief.

B (47:52)

When you told. When you had the real pill and believed it was a real pill, you had the most relief.

A (47:57)

So you got settings in the mind and the biology together.

B (47:59)

Exactly.

A (48:00)

Got it.

B (48:00)

But now get this. When they were given the real pill, but told it was a placebo, it worked significantly less. Right.

A (48:08)

Whoa. So you've got the real pill, you got the biology, but because of the settings in your mind not believing it, your mind reduced the effectiveness of the pill. Being able to work on the biology.

B (48:20)

Yeah.

A (48:20)

And it's crazy, right?

B (48:22)

And it still worked, but just not as well as the pill. Plus the belief.

A (48:26)

Okay.

B (48:26)

And in fact, it worked about the same as a placebo pill labeled maxalt.

A (48:34)

No way. So then you get the settings that you think you're getting the medicine, but the biology isn't there. And your mind still works as if you're taking the pill.

B (48:46)

Exactly.

A (48:46)

It's crazy.

B (48:47)

It's crazy and it's so. It was beautiful. Cause it was sophisticated and skillful. You know how they separated these things. But those conditions, kind of what they suggest is that the pain relieving effect of the pill was about the same as the pain relieving effect of the belief. Now, another fun and interesting thing they found in the study was the placebo labeled. The placebo was also better than doing nothing. So that's a whole other conversation on understanding that.

A (49:20)

Well, why do you think taking a pill that you know isn't the prescription, but taking it anyway has a positive impact on your health?

B (49:29)

I think it's because people still believe that something might work for them here. Ted Kapchuk, who's an incredible person and scientist, has been doing a lot of research on what he calls open label placebos. And they tend to work, but I think we still don't really know why. I personally think it's the belief in placebos, but we need more research.

A (49:56)

But it points back to what you're teaching us today, which is the settings in your mind are wildly powerful. So change the settings to align with the outcome that you want. I want to just tease this apart a little bit because I love what you're saying, and I personally, I 100% believe this is true, 1000% believe that it's true. And at the same time, I want to be sure that the person listening or who's watching right now and spending time with us, that they really get what you're talking about. Because it can be a little confusing when we talk about belief versus what's actually happening physically. So if somebody has cancer or if somebody is really struggling to lose weight, just believing that you're gonna heal or believing that you're gonna lose weight, that doesn't cure cancer. That's not what you're saying, right?

B (50:54)

No.

A (50:54)

And Learning that you can change the settings and understanding the power of belief to shape your behavior and your biology for better health outcomes is what's so super exciting. And you've got all this clinical research when it comes to milkshakes and people's biology. You also have this really fascinating study on placebo drugs and how it has actual physiological impact in people's bodies. And so it proves the power of the settings in your mind and why they matter. And so I want to make this like super practical because, you know, so many people are concerned about what they eat. They would like to lose weight or be healthier. They want to be able to stick to a diet or to an exercise routine. What do you say to them about the settings in your mind and mindset?

B (51:51)

So this question about cancer is really important, right? It shouldn't be mind over matter. Right. It should be mind and matter. So if you're diagnosed with cancer, like, you should get the best treatment for you. We have great drugs and therapies for cancer. Many of the cancers that were incurable 10, 20 years ago are curable now. And that is a beautiful thing, thanks to hardworking biologists and scientists. So we should take those. Right. But what I would add is we should also think about our mindset. So what are the mindsets we have about cancer, about what it means for our life? What are our mindsets about the treatment and the care we're getting? It turns out those mindsets matter too, and they can radically shape the whole experience that someone is having when they are going through cancer.

A (52:50)

As a world renowned researcher on mindset and its impact on health, what is the mindset that is the best mindset to have when you are going through a cancer treatment or you are facing some other kind of scary health diagnosis?

B (53:07)

Yeah. So we've been working on this question for nearly 10 years now. I'm working with Dr. Lydia Shapira, Dr. Jonathan Barak, David Spiegel, Shawn Zion and others. And what we found is that the best mindset to be in when you have cancer, first, it's not just think positive. It's not just believe you don't have cancer or believe you'll be okay. Those are actually acts of denial. The best mindset to be in when you have cancer is the mindset that this is manageable. Contrast that to the mindset of this is a catastrophe, it's unmanageable. Right. Another mindset that we found is very useful for people going through cancer is the mindset that their bodies are capable. Many people who are diagnosed with cancer feel like their bodies have let them down, that their bodies have turned on them, or at, you know, at best, are just sort of not working right now. And what we found in a number of studies, including trials, where we work to inspire people into different mindsets, is that moving to adopt the mindset that cancer is manageable, their bodies are capable, is profoundly transformative in shaping their whole experience. So it changes their quality of functioning in life. And it also reduces physical symptoms like nausea and fatigue and upset stomach and other things when they're going through chemotherapy. So we don't know. Right now, we're doing another trial looking at how to change these mindsets, and we are measuring people's blood samples, and we're looking at immune markers that are associated with cancer outcomes. So we don't know yet the results of those trials, But I would bet a lot of money that these mindsets don't just stay above the skin. They're getting down and they're influencing our body's response.

A (55:07)

Well, I'm excited that you're explaining the mechanisms in the brain and the research that proves that your mind and body are linked and the settings impact your biology.

B (55:19)

And.

A (55:20)

And given all this amazing research and given that you focus on health, I really wanna make this super practical. And so many people struggle with motivation and losing weight and eating healthy or staying consistent with exercise and taking care of themselves, getting fit. Dr. Crum, what do you wanna say to them about the power of the settings in your mind?

B (55:44)

So, first, I wanna say that I don't do research only because it's interesting. Right? Like, I do research in large part because I have problems I want to solve or I see problems in others that I want to help solve. So, in fact, the study. The. The idea for the milkshake study came from a problem that I was struggling with myself and that was struggling with diet and weight, which a lot of people have. And the idea, actually, for the milkshake study came to me when I was having dinner at the Cheesecake factory. Oh, my God. Okay, so you with me here? I assume you've been to a Cheesecake Factory at some point.

A (56:28)

Absolutely, yes.

B (56:30)

And so I was at the Cheesecake Factory with my mother.

A (56:32)

And if you haven't been to the Cheesecake Factory, they have a menu that is spiral bound and probably has, what, 400 items on it. It is the biggest menu I've ever seen in my entire life. And they give monster portions. Okay, so we're at this restaurant. You're with your mom. Great place to go to celebrate or hang out with somebody.

B (56:52)

Yes. So I'm with my mom. We had a great meal. It was the end of the meal. The plates were cleaned and cleared, and I was faced with this obvious but, you know, existential question. Right.

A (57:05)

You're gonna have dessert? Yeah.

B (57:07)

Am I gonna order the cheesecake? Okay, so you're with me here. So anybody here who struggled with their weight or diet knows that. That this is a stressful question. And it's stressful because it's really a catch 22. You're, like, faced with two bad options. So on the one hand, you could let yourself go and have the cheesecake, right? But if you're watching your weight, you're eating it with this sneaky sense of guilt and shame as you eat. Or you could, you know, be virtuous and restraining. But if you're like me, that would leave you leaving the whole experience, like, somewhat unsatisfied. Like it is the cheesecake Factory, after all. So here I was, agonizing over that decision when the thought occurred to me, you know, what if our beliefs. What if my beliefs about this cheesecake could change my body's response to it? And I thought. I hoped, I was like, maybe, like the placebo effect. If I just believed this cheesecake was good for me, that my body would respond as if it was good for me. Right? So that's where the idea for the milkshake study was born. Oh, yeah. So fast forward. We did the study.

A (58:26)

Did you order the cheesecake?

B (58:29)

You know, I didn't order the cheesecake. And the reason I didn't order the cheesecake was that at the time, I had been obsessively counting calories. I had been struggling with my weight. Um, I had disordered eating. I had. Had gone through a period of bulimia. I was recovered at that time, but it was still sort of a. Like, I was well over the 2,000 calories that I had allotted myself. I was like, I will not have this cheesecake. But it was not a very pleasant state to be in. So I hoped, like, okay, maybe I can just make. Maybe I can find a way to literally have my cake and eat it, too. Like, if I just believed good things about it. Um, so I kind of went into that study with this wishful think, okay? And fast forward to what we found, which, as you know, is that our beliefs did matter. Right? What we believed about the cheesecake, in this case, what people believed about the milkshake changed their body's physical response. Now, that alone was radical, as we've discussed, because it took that calories in, calories out equation and flipped it on its head. But when I started to apply these results in my own life, when I was like, okay, what did I learn from this? How can I make this useful to me? What I realized was that the lessons from the milkshake study were even more profound and important. And I realized that we, you know, what I thought was gonna happen was the exact opposite as what actually happened. So if you're eating right, what you want to have happen is you want your ghrelin levels to drop, right? Because that will signal to your brain that you've had enough.

A (60:09)

Right?

B (60:10)

But what we found was when people thought they were eating healthy, sensibly, sort of, you know, restraining their eating, they. Their bodies responded as if they weren't getting enough. It was actually the mindset of indulgence that was the better mindset to have, right? Because the mindset of indulgence, even though it was the exact same milkshake, led to them the. The. The appropriate. The ideal response of ghrelin levels falling.

A (60:40)

Wow.

B (60:40)

So this was, like, mind blowing for me because I realized I had been going about it all wrong. Like, I had been, you know, sort of gritting my teeth, trying to dye it, but I was doing all the hard work in a mindset of restraint, a mindset of sensibility, a mindset of, I'm not getting enough. And that setting of my mind was counteracting the hard work that I was at dieting. So I realized. I realized, like, it's not about the milkshake. It's not about the cheesecake, right? The real gem in this study is that the mindset of indulgence is the best mindset to be in when you eat. And let me be clear about what I mean by indulgence, right? Indulgence, by the original definition of the word, it means to allow oneself to enjoy the pleasure of. Right? So does this license you to eat cheesecake and milkshakes all the time? No, of course not. But now when I eat, whether that's a cheesecake or a salad or like a side of veggies, I try to eat in a mindset of indulgence. So if I find myself back at the Cheesecake Factory, I'll eat the whole meal in that mindset, right? And what I found is that when I eat the whole meal in that mindset, I don't even want the cheesecake. Of course, sometimes I'll have cheesecake, and when I have cheesecake, if I really want it, I'll eat that in a mindset of indulgence too.

A (62:18)

Dr. Crum, I have so many more questions, but I want to take a quick pause because here's what I want to say to you. If you're watching this on YouTube or you're listening. If this conversation is getting you to see things in an entirely new way, do not keep this to yourself. I mean, don't you wish you knew this in middle school? Please share this with your family. Share it with your friends, because anybody that learns about the settings in their mind, they're going to appreciate it and you're going to have helped them take control of their life and make positive changes. Isn't this so awesome? We haven't even scratched the surface yet, so don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Finding the precise foundation that makes you and your wallet feel confident has always been a challenge. Until now. I'm excited to tell you more about something I've been loving l' Oreal Paris Trumatch foundation and why It's Worthy of youf why it's good for all skin types, especially for my listeners with mature and sensitive skin. The formula is incredibly hydrating and won't settle into fine lines. And you know my skin has changed over time. I'm 57, so I have more dryness, more uneven tone and texture. L' Oreal Paris True Match foundation keeps up with all of it. It glides on, blends seamlessly and stays put, giving you a smooth, fresh face. Now matching L' Oreal has cracked the code here with over 47 shades. Shade matching was surprisingly easy. I went with C4 cool light medium. It adapts to your skin tone, matching your natural complexion so you don't end up with a harsh line on your jaw. Find your true match on Amazon for makeup that's worthy of you because you're worth it. Right now, there's a talented person out there who could take your company to the next level. Now, do you hope they're going to see your job post before your competitor Does? Join the 3.3 million employers around the world who use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. With Indeed's Sponsored Jobs feature, your job post will get the boost it needs to stand out so you can reach the right candidate faster. Because when you've got the right team, everything else clicks. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed sponsored jobs and listeners of this show, that's you will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com Melrobbins just go to Indeed.com Melrobbins right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com melrobbins Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed Want to know one of my Go To Gifts Masterclass? Yep, Masterclass. It's one of the best gifts you can ever give. Last year I got an annual membership for my daughter, Sawyer. She started with Esther Perel's class on relationships. I'm not exaggerating when I say it opened up a completely new conversation for both of us. Personal, professional, family, all of it. See, Esther says one sentence and you're like, okay, that explains my last three relationships. That explains why I'm always fighting with my mother. That's what I love about the Masterclass platform. The instructors do not hold back. They share the kind of insights you only get from people who've lived it, practiced it, researched it, and refined it for years. You can listen in audio mode while you're on a walk, watch lessons offline, even knock out a few sessions while dinner's in the oven. Flexible. Practical. It works. Memberships start at just $10 a month and they come with a 30 day money back guarantee. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to Masterclass.com Melrobbins for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at Masterclass.com MelrobbINS Masterclass.com MelrobbINs. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you and I are learning how to change the settings in our mind with Stanford's Dr. Aliyah Crum. So Dr. Crum, this we have to unpack because this is amazing. Yeah, what you're saying is that when you have settings in your mind that are all around healthy eating and can only have certain calories and I'm trying to be good and all of those kinds of settings, regardless of what you're eating, signal to your body that you're not actually full because you are in a mindset. The settings in the mind of restriction and scarcity and you gotta like just follow this certain thing versus what the research shows biologically is that if the settings in the mind are that I am going to be in a mindset where I am in the indulgent setting, meaning I am allowing myself to enjoy this regardless of what I'm eating, that setting in the mind lowers all of the Craving and hunger. That's incredible. And you have the research to prove it.

B (67:33)

Yeah. And also, you know, the research is one thing, but I can say that this study alone changed my life. Like, that insight for me totally just. It changed everything. Right. And I can literally say, I no longer struggle with eating. I enjoy what I eat. I feel good about what I eat. And it's all because of this, you know, striving for this mindset of indulgence.

A (67:56)

So if you go a little deeper into your own settings, what were. What were the old settings in your mind that kind of kept you in that, like, restrictive scares, you know, mode around food? And then what were the new settings? Just so the person that's with us, because I know this is going to be like, share, share, share. Wait a minute. Indulgent mind. Because it makes a lot of sense. What specifically was the old setting and what specifically was the new setting that allowed you to have that big of a life transformation?

B (68:29)

Yeah, the old setting was one that was focused on the behavior. What am I doing? Right? It's all about, I shouldn't eat this, I should eat that. And when you do that and you eat the thing you should, but not the thing you want, you put yourself into a mindset of restraint. Like, you're avoiding the thing you want, which leads to the setting of the mind of, I'm restraining myself, I'm not getting what I really want. And that mindset, it turns out to be unhealthy physiologically with respect to hunger signals and ghrelin. The new mindset was, okay, sure, like, still try to eat healthy, right? Still try to eat nutritiously, say, but the, the more important goal that I have is not focused on what I eat, but what mindset I'm in when I eat it. So the goal whenever I go about a meal is to ask myself, what. What would it take here to eat in a mindset of indulgence? To enjoy whatever it is that I'm eating for the sake of the pleasure in that food. And I would say that, you know, yeah, it is this tricky difference in indulgence. Like, don't misunderstand it as, oh, this is licensing you to just like, you know, whatever it is just for the sake of eating it.

A (69:49)

Like, I don't hear that.

B (69:50)

No. And. And what you do is you. You're just like, I. I can, you know, like, if I really want to eat this dessert, that's okay, right? Can I eat it in a mindset of indulgence? A mindset of this is enough. This is good. This is pleasurable. This is what I want right now. So I, you know, I always look at the dessert menu and I give myself permission to say, do I really want anything on this menu?

A (70:18)

This is so cool. I would love, given your amazing research and the insights and now the science that we understand, the profound breakthrough that it's had on your life, to really kind of break this down into practical tools based on your research. And so I am going to pick up objects that are related to health.

B (70:38)

Okay.

A (70:39)

And for, if you're listening, I will describe it. You'll be able to see it if you're watching on YouTube. And then I would love to have you describe what are the settings in our mind, the mindset that we should have if we want better health outcomes.

B (70:57)

Okay.

A (70:57)

All right. I'm holding a big head of iceberg lettuce. Okay. If you like a wedge salad, we've got a whole head here waiting for the blue cheese and the bacon.

B (71:08)

Okay, great. So I guess I would turn it on you, Mel. I would say, like, when you look at that lettuce, like, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

A (71:16)

Well, the first thing that came to mind is my mom. Cause she loves iceberg lettuce in a salad.

B (71:20)

Oh, interesting.

A (71:22)

Yes.

B (71:22)

Okay, well, that's interesting. If you decided you were going to feed your kid, maybe when they were littler. Yeah.

A (71:33)

Yes.

B (71:34)

This iceberg lettuce for dinner, what would they think?

A (71:37)

Yuck, that's it. Salad. Do I have to eat it? I don't like the texture. That would be Oakley.

B (71:46)

Exactly. So that's a mindset.

A (71:50)

It is. Picky eaters are a mindset.

B (71:53)

Well, the belief that healthy foods are the disgusting and depriving option is a mindset. And we have it actually for good reason. Again, they're set by things outside ourselves. Like food companies spend billions of dollars each year trying to teach us that the delicious option, the indulgent option is, is the, you know, the fast food option.

A (72:21)

Yes, the. Oh, that's true.

B (72:23)

Right. So they're spending billions associating McDonald's cheeseburgers or, you know, insert X brand name product with not only taste but also other things we want like happiness and attractiveness and freedom. Right. The vegetable industry hasn't spent anybody really trying to get us to think about healthy foods in a way that associates them with pleasure and taste and happiness and freedom. Now, of course, I wouldn't say, you know, go out and eat a head of lettuce. Right. Like, what we should try to do again, it's the mind and the matter? Can you take that head of lettuce and make it something that actually looks indulgent? Right. Turn it into a salad. Add the blue cheese dressing, add the nuts, add the farm grown tomatoes. Add whatever it is that is, you know, appealing to you.

A (73:20)

Can I say something?

B (73:21)

Yeah, please.

A (73:22)

Did you just change the settings of my mind? Is my mouth starting to water? Because you are now encoding in me this sort of indulgent setting related to the salad. Because I started to feel hungry for a salad, as you were describing it as an indulgent thing.

B (73:43)

Yes. And that's the beauty of our mind. It's connected to every single physical system in the body. So just changing this thought of, like, oh, I'm gonna eat this indulgent salad. Your body's preparing to eat it.

A (73:57)

So changing the setting about the things that you don't crave but would be better for you to indulge in is one way to use all this science y to help you be more motivated to stick to your healthier eating goals. That's really cool.

B (74:15)

Yeah. My mom used to, when I would come home after some sport, she would give me V8. The.

A (74:22)

Of course. Remember the lid, like, it would pop?

B (74:25)

Yes, yes. And she would give me V8.

A (74:28)

What was it? Thank God I had a V8. What was it? I think I'll have a V8. That's a Heineken. I think I'll have a Heineken. There's something related to a V8. There's a V8. There is a V8.

B (74:37)

Healthy options.

A (74:38)

Get in your. Oh, you know what? It's indulgent. Come to think of it, I'm out with my work colleagues. I'll have a Heineken. Very indulgent.

B (74:46)

Which makes me want to be smart and happy and, you know, connected. But the, the V8, she would pour in a wine glass. You know, I was like, yeah, I don't know, 10, 11. I never got to drink out of the wine glasses. And she would put a lemon on it. Right. And so I was just like, so thrilled to get this, you know, indulgent option, which was actually vegetable juice. Right. So she, you know, we, we as parents can rethink how we approach healthy eating with our children. Again, it's not. Don't just focus. Like, yes, hopefully you can get them to eat more nutritiously in life, but the focus should also be on how can you get them to believe that those things are actually the more delicious option, the more indulgent option.

A (75:35)

That's so cool. All right, now I'm pick up another item and I think my team is playing a joke on me because I'm going to try to grab a weight. This is a 30 pound weight. Oh my God. Okay. I have a lot of settings about how weak I am apparently as I'm lifting this thing. Okay, so let's talk about weights and mindset.

B (75:59)

Yeah. So what's the first thing that comes to mind or came to mind when you were lifting it?

A (76:03)

I'm almost embarrassed to tell you because the settings are, I'm weak, I need to do more weightlifting. I have terrible grip strength. I'm going to die early if I don't get my farmer's carry going that I'm not doing enough. I don't know quite what to do in terms of the lifting. I know a few moves, but not a lot. And just basically I'm weak and like I have to.

B (76:34)

And you're like angry at your seat. You're like, why couldn't they put a 15 pound weight?

A (76:37)

Yes. Like, are you trying to embarrass me? I'm like, what's going on here? I don't know why we have 30 pound weights at the office. I don't know who's lifting instead of working.

B (76:46)

It's not me. I heard Stacy Sims was in here.

A (76:49)

Dr. Stacy Sims was in here. And I have been doing a lot of resistance training. Apparently not heavy enough because I can't lift that with one hand.

B (76:58)

Well, it's such a beautiful example because it's like the minute you lift it that triggers a mindset. And for you it was, I'm not strong enough, I'm weak, I'm weak. And that again is a mindset. Right. Maybe what if they had brought a 10 pound weight? Maybe if you had lifted that, you would have said, oh, I got this. Oh, that reminds me that I'm strong, that I'm fit, that I'm fitter than most people.

A (77:22)

Well, it's funny because if it had been a 10 pound, I would have lifted that sucker like an Olympic torch. But now that this was 30 pounds, I'm thinking Dr. Stacy Sims is gonna see me bending over with a hump on my back like my grandmother because I can't get this thing off the ground. And so a lot of self destructive settings in the brain. What, what should I be thinking?

B (77:42)

Yeah, well, because I do want to.

A (77:44)

Like here's two goals of mine. My goals this year are very simple. I wanna take all of the expert advice that I really believe in. All of the science. And I do want to make resistance training and getting more complete quality protein in my diet every day. The streaks that I Go on, Dr. Crum, I feel like a completely different person. But then I'll go through a busy streak at work, and, like, now we're gonna have a psychology session. Is that okay? Because I have not. I was consistent for a while, and then I fell off the mark because all kinds of crazy stuff started happening, you know, in business. All good. And life happens to everybody, and I have not been consistent. Yeah.

B (78:34)

Yeah. And when you're not consistent or when you go back on what you had hoped you were gonna do.

A (78:38)

Yes.

B (78:39)

This creeping sensation comes in. Or belief that you're not doing enough. That now you're failing.

A (78:45)

Yes.

B (78:46)

That now you're going to get unhealthy and you're going to die earlier. You're going to have heart disease. It's like you can see your mind just spiral.

A (78:53)

Right.

B (78:54)

And so again, here, like, look, the behaviors matter. I'm not saying don't try to do resistance training or don't try to get more protein or don't try to eat better, but you should focus as much on getting into mindsets that are useful for you.

A (79:11)

Well, let's talk about both.

B (79:12)

Yeah. As you are on the behavior, so you can start to think of the spiral. Right. If you have a busy week and then you're like, oh, I'm not getting enough. I'll never be able to achieve these goals that I set for myself. I'm just inevitably going downhill. Then what do you start paying attention to all the ways in which you are. How do you start feeling worse? How's your motivation now? You don't want to go to the gym. Right. You don't want to do that extra thing. Right. And your body is like, oh, I guess, you know, I guess we're going that way.

A (79:42)

Yes.

B (79:43)

Right. So it's you, by the. You know, if you aren't focused on the mindset, you can really spiral quickly in the wrong direction.

A (79:53)

I can really see that. I can see that. Because I can. I can see how your mindset, if you're like, I blew it.

B (79:59)

Yeah.

A (80:00)

You know, I was good for a while. Now I'm bad. Just proves more of the same. It means you won't go back and try again. And it's so subtle, but so powerful.

B (80:12)

So powerful.

A (80:13)

I love that I'm capable. Do you get that we're doing enough and we're capable and that if we just keep saying that, it makes it more likely that you're gonna believe it, which makes you more likely to be a little more active.

B (80:27)

That's right. Now pick up the weight.

A (80:30)

Okay. Okay. I can actually pick it up with one hand.

B (80:34)

Yeah, take that.

A (80:36)

Dr. Stacy said, Proud of me. Now I'm gonna tip over in this chair, though. Okay, we're gonna do two hands here.

B (80:42)

I'll check this.

A (80:43)

But I felt a little stronger.

B (80:44)

Yeah. And that's what's interesting too. It's like once you get into that mindset of capability.

A (80:50)

Yes.

B (80:51)

Then the weight will actually feel different to you.

A (80:54)

Is that research backed?

B (80:57)

Some research has shown. Yes. That the feeling of a weight in your hand, depending on the mindset you're in, we need to do a lot more research.

A (81:05)

I love that because when I saw 30, my setting immediately clicked on and it went, oh, no.

B (81:10)

Yes.

A (81:11)

I don't like, I don't know if I can lift that off the cabinet.

B (81:13)

That's right.

A (81:14)

But after taking on the setting, well, I'm capable and I'm moving my body and I'm doing pretty good here. I just picked that sucker right up.

B (81:21)

Look at that.

A (81:22)

Mind over matter. All right, then I'm a stand up. My God. Okay, okay, now we got something else.

B (81:31)

See, Mel, now you've gotten your workout for the day. You don't have to worry about it anymore.

A (81:36)

Oh, God. I got chocolate all over. Okay, okay. I, I, the, the, the top of, I've got chocolate cake right here. It's not quite as big as a, as a, a cake from the, the, the Cheesecake factory, but let me show you something. If we did this, this is what a Cheesecake factory slice of cake would look like right there. For those of you that don't have the glory of a Cheesecake factory. Okay, so we're gonna. I'm tip this down this way. I've got a big layered chocolate cake in front of me, and now I've got it all over my hands. Okay, so what do we think about this?

B (82:18)

Well, I'll ask you again. What's the first thing that comes to mind when you see this?

A (82:24)

Well, the first thing that came to mind was actually what came into my nose because it smells delicious. Like, it smells like a really good, expensive kind of luscious buttercream chocolate cake. This is not a dry slice of cake, people. This sucker looks like lubrication for your mind, body, and spirit. That's what this looks like. And when I saw the sprinkles, I thought celebration. When I first saw them bringing this into the show, I thought that this Was gonna be like a surprise for somebody's birthday. Somebody recently got married here, and I thought that maybe we're gonna surprise them with a cake.

B (83:04)

Yeah.

A (83:04)

I didn't realize it was for you. So the first thing that comes to mind is I want a bite of this. Yeah, it looks delicious.

B (83:12)

It's interesting, all the language that came to your mind. I feel like you need to lick yourself.

A (83:18)

I've got. If you're not watching on YouTube, I have chocolate frosting and sprinkles on my pointer finger and my thumb because the frost, the cake tipped over on the file cabinet next to me. And I don't know why I picked up the icing. Okay. Yeah.

B (83:34)

So I think what I find fascinating is the first thing that came to mind was all these delicious and indulgent words, right? Like luscious, delicious. And again, I think those are settings of the mind that have been set by forces outside of yourself. So you've grown up in this environment that's been telling you, oh, well, my.

A (83:54)

Grandparents owned a bakery.

B (83:56)

Oh, well, there you go.

A (83:58)

So I love baked goods.

B (84:00)

Yeah, so you love baked goods. But also the baked goods are the luscious, delicious, mouth watering, you know, sensations that you can get. And that's great. That's wonderful. And that's beautiful. That is actually a mindset of indulgence.

A (84:16)

You know, I'm starting to get this because for a long time in my life, if I saw a cake, even if I wanted, I'm like, I can't have that. It's like, whatever. Not time for cake right now. I'm gonna ruin my appetite. All these settings of don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. Yeah, and that would just make me want it more.

B (84:36)

Yes.

A (84:37)

Why does that happen?

B (84:39)

A lot of reasons. But one reason is what psychologists call ironic mental brain processing, or the white bear effect. So whatever you do, in the next 30 seconds, you can think about anything you want. But whatever you do, don't think about a white bear.

A (84:58)

Don't think about it.

B (84:59)

Ready?

A (84:59)

Go.

B (85:01)

What do you think about it?

A (85:02)

I'm thinking about a polar bear right now.

B (85:04)

Exactly. So it's this phenomenon in our brains in which when we try not to think about something, the brain registers, okay, that's a goal. Don't think about that. And then when our brains have a goal, it wants to check in to see how we're doing with respect to our goals. So it's like, let me check in about that goal to not think about a white polar bear. Oh, there it is, right? So when you're trying not to think about the cake, right. Your brain's like, well, what about that cake? What about that cake? You didn't eat that cake. Not to mention your ghrelin levels are probably like, what about the cake, Melanie? Like, you eat the cake. Right?

A (85:40)

I'm ready to eat the cake.

B (85:42)

So. But let me ask you this. So I don't know where this cake came from.

A (85:45)

Got me either, but here it is.

B (85:49)

But what if I told you that the cake was actually a stick store bought cake from. Not a great store. It's not from your grandparents bakery that it's three days old. It's actually kind of dry.

A (86:04)

Ew, I don't want that. Right.

B (86:06)

It's the same cake.

A (86:07)

That's why I'm not eating the frosting on my fingers. Cause God knows what's on that file cabinet. I don't even know where it came from. And so I just scooped it up and I don't know what. But I want the cake. Yeah, but so it's the same cake. So you describing this as store bought stale, it's got that kind of crust thing on the side of it. Cause it's been out for a little bit.

B (86:26)

Yep. And what if, you know, I told you that the content in it was not very. It's not real butter, it's Crisco. It's all these highly processed ingredients. You know, all of a sudden the same cake under a different setting of the mind becomes less appealing.

A (86:43)

It's true. That's not this cake. So it's still very appealing.

B (86:47)

I'm not sure what the cake is, but the point is, even regardless of what the cake is, you have the power over your mindset about it, Right. And you can choose to view it and think, okay, this is tasty. This is indulgence. This is what my body really wants and needs right now. And maybe it's for a celebration, right? Maybe it's to celebrate this great podcast.

A (87:13)

That you're doing or the new settings in my mind around indulgence.

B (87:16)

Yeah. Then eat it.

A (87:17)

Well, I feel like I should. You're my guest. You do want to bite first before I take a bite. Or do you not want some chocolate?

B (87:22)

You know, honestly, I don't want any of this.

A (87:24)

Okay, well, I do. I want some luscious chocolate cake, but I only want a bite. I'm not, I'm not that. I'm not that. I just want to taste it really good. Oh my God, that's delicious. And I don't even Want any more? I think this is so fascinating and so interesting. Okay, so another thing that a lot of people have goals around. Let me show you something else. I am holding up some money. I've got dollar bills here, four of them. One of which has chocolate frosting on it because the dollar bill hit the frosting. Let's talk about mindset and settings in the mind related to money.

B (88:05)

Yeah. So objectively, it's what, four bucks? Four bucks. Okay, so that's the objective reality.

A (88:12)

Okay.

B (88:13)

The mindset is what is your core belief about it or what is your assumption. Assumption about the essence of that money?

A (88:20)

Well, at the moment, my setting is that this is gonna sound really weird, but that I should give this to somebody. That dollar bills to me feel like something to give to somebody else. Now, maybe if this was a hundred, I might not think that, but there's something about. But there was a period in my life where if I had even just held $4 bills, I would have said, I better, like, hold onto this. Cause I'm about to lose this.

B (88:52)

Yes.

A (88:53)

Like, I don't have a lot of money. Like, I can't make money. Like, something's gonna happen with this money. I better hold onto this money. And the belief of, like, there's a. I don't know. I don't know what settings people should have about money.

B (89:10)

Yeah, I think you do, Mel. I mean, we have mindsets about money that it's either scarce, that it's not enough, that it's going away, that it's. I'll never have enough. I'll never be good with money. I've lost it. All right? I can't. Or you have the belief that you have enough, that it's. It's there for you, that it's abundant, and when you put your mind to it, you can make whatever it is you need and give away the rest of the.

A (89:37)

Right.

B (89:37)

Those are just beliefs. They're just settings of the mind. Now, of course, the objective amount of money matters too.

A (89:44)

Of course.

B (89:45)

But you could start to see how if you were in this mindset of scarcity, that might lead you to think, feel, and behave in ways that actually made the money more scarce in your life.

A (89:58)

Yes. And it made me less responsible with it too, in a very weird way. And I. What's interesting about this with money is that when you don't have any, it is such a crushing level of stress because you think about it and worry about it all the time. But I could see how changing the settings to. I'm capable of figuring this out. I am capable of getting through this very stressful period. I am capable of making more money.

B (90:28)

Yeah.

A (90:29)

And that money will come to me when I start believing that I'm capable of doing that, because that'll change the way I act around it.

B (90:40)

Yeah, yeah. And in some cases, it's not about the money. Right. Like in all these exercises, you're showing one object and we're talking about the object. But usually it's a category of things that the settings about those, the core beliefs about those are the most poignant and powerful. Right. It's, you know, it's not just a head of lettuce. It's what's your belief about healthy eating in general? It's not just, oh, can I lift up this weight or not? It's, you know, on the whole, do I feel like I'm fit? That's what matters. Right. And. And maybe it's not even the money. It's just the belief that you can create the life you imagine. Right. Those are the beliefs that matter. They're about categories of things like yourself, healthy eating, your fitness and so forth.

A (91:32)

I gotta Change those settings. Dr. Crum, Dr. Crum, if the person who's with us right now really wants to put your work into practice today, what's one thing that you think is the most important thing to do after listening and learning all this today?

B (91:54)

Yeah, I think what I would say to the person listening or watching is to start where you are, right? To start by acknowledging the problems that you're facing. Start by acknowledging the goals that you have, and then take that next step and ask yourself, what mindset could I adopt that would help me address those problems or achieve those goals? So if you're a person dealing with stress, can you remind yourself that the body's stress response was not designed to kill you and remind yourself that it's there to support you, that there's something there you care about, and you can channel your efforts towards that thing. To the person who might be struggling with their weight, I would remind them to, sure, focus on eating nutritiously, but focus more on adopting the mindset of indulgence, eating while enjoying the pleasure of doing so. And if you're somebody who's dealing with a health diagnosis, like cancer or any health diagnosis for that matter, can you know that mindsets like this is manageable, your body is capable, that those mindsets are well within your grasp.

A (93:25)

And what I love is they're also well researched and have extraordinary benefits that you have now explained to all of us. It's so amazing. Dr. Crumb, what are your parting words?

B (93:39)

Yeah, I think I would say two things. The first is to just get in touch. We've done a lot of research, but we're really just at the tip of the iceberg in understanding the power of our mind. And I don't do this research so it can sit on dusty shelves. I truly do it to solve my problems, our problems. Right. So I really encourage people to get in touch, however that might be, whether that's LinkedIn or through our website, Instagram, and share your stories, Share what works, share what doesn't work. Share your questions, share your ideas. Right. Because this is what makes the research better. This is what enables us to do studies that are relatable, they're relevant, and they're applicable at the end of the day. And then lastly, I think I would say most importantly is that you got this right. There's so much in life that we can't control that we can't change, but our mindsets are something that we can. So you got this.

A (94:50)

And because of you, Dr. Crum, we actually do. So thank you for your research. Thank you for traveling all the way to Boston to be here to teach us all of this. Thank you for everything that you do. And thank you for explaining the power of the settings in your mind in such a way that I totally believe you. And I am going to use everything we talked about today, and I know it's gonna make a huge difference in my life. So thank you.

B (95:21)

Thank you, Mel. It really is an honor and a pleasure to have this conversation. And I'm so grateful for the work that you do.

A (95:28)

Oh, well, thank you for saying that. And I also wanted to say I'm grateful that you're here with us. I love that you spend time listening and watching this show because it is helping you learn, it's helping you grow, it's helping you do better. And it's also an incredible resource. I mean, share Dr. Crumb's research with everybody that you care about. How extraordinary to know that there are settings in your mind that are well within your control to change. And the research is there, and it proves that it creates better outcomes. You're going to feel better, you're going to do better. And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you. I love you for listening to this. I love you for being interested in this. I love you for taking what you learned today very seriously. And I also believe that if you do that it will help you create a better life. Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. That you need to change. This isn't positive thinking. Hold on. Let me do that again. Oh, my God. There it is. Oh, my God. Aaliyah is probably good then. Amazing.

B (96:44)

It's like one of these moments where you're like, I can't believe this is actually happening. You know, you always think about it always in your head, and you're like, all right, here we go.

A (96:51)

Here we go. Have fun. Oh, my God. I saw a girl. I saw that chocolate cake man. I want to take your class.

B (96:59)

Oh, that would be great. Imagine you just show up.

A (97:02)

Look at how good you are. I'm like, already. I want to tell you are so good. Okay, so, Dr. Crumb, I want.

B (97:10)

Amy is good.

A (97:11)

Amy is fabulous. Where's Amy? Good job, Amy.

B (97:13)

Good job, Amy.

A (97:14)

Welcome back. Welcome back. It's your buddy. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And hold on. Today, welcome. What do I normally say? It's. It's your buddy. Oh, yeah. Let's see how it goes.

B (97:24)

It's all right. Oh, my God. Next time, we'll share milkshakes. Okay. Yes.

A (97:34)

Now we'll both take a sip of water so we have chocolate on our teeth. All right. Look at our teeth. Give us a teeth check. Are we good? Oh, you look great. Can you. Yay. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician or professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

B (98:21)

SiriusXM podcasts.

A (98:28)

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