← The Mel Robbins Podcast
The Mel Robbins Podcast
Don’t Argue or Fight With a Difficult Person – Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)
00:52:59
Do you have a family member, a boss, or even a close friend who constantly drains your energy or makes everything about them? In today’s episode, you’ll learn how to protect yourself from toxic, self-centered personalities that can make you feel exhausted and frustrated. Dr. Ramani, a world-renowned expert on narcissism, gives you the playbook to navigate even the most challenging personalities. She will break down the signs of narcissistic behavior and arm you with the strategies you need to maintain your boundaries and your sanity. You’ll learn how to stop letting difficult people control your life and get practical advice on how to create a game plan for peace in every one of your relationships. If you liked this tactical and powerful episode, listen to this one next: How to Handle Negative People: 6 Strategies to Protect Your Peace For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. Connect with Mel: Get Mel’s new free 26-page workbook, What Do You Really Wa...
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- [00:00]
Mel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. This weekend, my husband and I are gonna go to this function where there's going to be a particular person. And honestly, the person's really hard to deal with. Like, it's always about them. They hate it when things don't go their way. And how do you know that? Because they either erupt or they stir the pot, or they're constantly, like, making trouble or they're sulking in the corner, like, trying to draw the attention to them. And here's the other thing about this person and their personality. They don't have any interest in anyone but themselves. Unless, of course, they need something from you. And then, of course, you're the first person that they're going to call. Now, I've bet you've got someone or maybe many people like this in your life, too. They never ask you a single question about your life. It's like it doesn't even occur to them. And it's not like it has to be about me all the time, but it's so clear when you're around this person that it's always about them. Is this ringing any bells for you? Maybe it's your brother. Maybe it sounds like I'm describing your boss or your dad or your mom, or maybe it's the person that your sister is now dating. I mean, you can't quite put your finger on it, but something is off. And you always know that anytime that you're going to have to spend the weekend with them or be in a meeting with them or have a family dinner with them, you are going to leave and you're going to feel drained. You're going to feel slightly annoyed by simply having had to be around them. So now that you have that person in mind, I got a question for you. Do you know how to deal with them? I'm dead serious about this. Do you know how to protect yourself from this kind of personality where no matter what you do, it is always about them? Well, that's what you and I are gonna talk about today. And we're not just gonna talk about this particular personality style. You're going to get a playbook of tactics, strategies, do's, and we're definitely talking about the don'ts, and there are going to be specific things you need to say the next time you're about to be with someone who's literally all about themselves. Amica is an incredible sponsor of the Mel Robbins Podcast, and they are also our exclusive insurance partner. There's a Reason why amica representatives care there. That's the reason they take the time to get to know you. They want to know your needs, so you get a policy that gives you both coverage and peace of mind. Amica representatives are real caring who are always there to help you as a trusted partner to their customers. Ameca representatives understand that insurance is about protecting the life you've built. So go to ameca.com and get a quote. Today, the Mel Robbins Podcast is brought to you by Audi. It's not every day you get excited by a new car, but the all new Audi Q6E Tron is more than a new EV. It's a new way to experience driving. Embrace the thrill of the drive with effortless power, serious acceleration, and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. And with an all new panoramic digital stage and legendary Audi performance, it's impossible not to love the all new Audi Q6E Tron. Learn more@audiusa.com hey, it's your friend, Mel. And first of all, thank you for being here with me today. I just love spending time with you. It's always an honor to be together. And I also want to thank you for for taking the time to listen to something that could really help you improve your life. And if you're brand new, I wanna welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm on a mission to inspire and empower you with tools and expert resources that you need and deserve that are gonna help you live a more meaningful life. And on that topic, holy cow, is our conversation today going to help? Because we are talking about something that can be a huge obstacle to living your best life, and that is dealing with a person who has a very specific personality type. And you know, before I describe the personality type, I'm gonna just share with you. There are two people in my life who I have to deal with in a somewhat frequent basis that have just this weird combination in their personality where on one hand it's all about them. And at the same time, even though they're like super into themselves and egotistical, they are crazy emotionally immature. And I just keep expecting it to change. One of these people that I'm referring to, if they're not the center of attention, it's just astonishing how they always figure out how to create some kind of distraction and pull the attention to them. It's like whether they're suddenly venting about something or they're acting like a vict, or they're gossiping in the corner and Creating allies. Or they're sulking because someone else is center stage and they're not the center of attention, or they're the kind of person that you just know any single second, even though they're, like, quiet, that they could fly off the handle and snap. And they never, never ask you a single question. You want to know why? Because they're not interested in your life. And here's the funniest thing. You know the two people I'm referring to, like, if they listened to this episode, they literally would have no idea I was talking about them. And I'm sure as I describe this, there is somebody coming to mind for you. And as much as you keep wanting the dynamic and the person to be different, it isn't. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how many times you call. It doesn't matter how supportive you are, how many hundreds or thousands of hours you've spent listening to the drama in their life. It doesn't matter how many times you've made excuses for the way. They always have a way of turning it back on you, making it your fault. It just never changes. Is this ringing any bells for you? Well, learning that there is a word to describe this type of person changed my life. Because according to the experts, what I'm describing is a very rigid but very predictable personality style, and it's called narcissism. And learning about narcissism, personality styles, what it is, how to spot it as if it's a framework, it has helped me immensely in my life because the single biggest takeaway that I've learned and that I've had to put to use in my own life, and that I'm definitely gonna be putting to use this weekend, is that this person, this person that you're thinking about is never gonna change. You need to change your approach. Now, I wanna say right up front, we have done a number of episodes on the topic of narcissism. In fact, our most popular expertise of all time on YouTube is back. She's the world's leading expert on narcissism. But if you think you know everything about narcissism, you're wrong. Because today's conversation is extremely, extremely different. Because we're not focused on them. We're focused on you. What you need to know, what you need to do when you have this kind of personality in your life, because maybe it's one of your kids, maybe it's one of your parents, and you're not wanting to cut them out, but you wish they would cut the crap. And today you and I are gonna talk about how to live with someone like this in your life because you cannot avoid this personality style. And Our expert today, Dr. Romney, is gonna give you the do's and definitely gonna give you the don'ts. And we're gonna cover topics that you have never heard discussed before. Like what do you do if you think one of your kids or any young adult that you know may have a narcissistic personality style? She's going to talk about the difference between a true narcissistic personality and developmental phases that kids and young adults go through that are actually quite healthy. She's also going to talk about something you will have never heard spoken about before, which is what do you do if you have kids with someone who has a narcissistic personality style? And her advice in that situation is going to shock you. Now, you know that I always recommend that you share these episodes with people that you love, but this one in particular is going to be eye opening and it could be a real lifesaver if there's someone that you know who's in a lot of pain or feeling a lot of friction because they're dealing with a narcissistic personality style at work, in their marriage or their family. What Dr. Romney is going to do today, the tools, the tactics, the strategies, it will change your life. And so here's how this is going to go down. I've got specific questions and Dr. Romney is here to answer them. Rapid fire. Now a little bit about Dr. Romney Diversola. She's a renowned psychologist, professor and best selling author. She is one of the absolute fan favorite experts here on the Mel Robbins podcast. In fact, she is our single most popular expert. And today she's back. So let's jump in. Dr. Romney. I've got so many extraordinary questions and I wanna start with one that just kind of sets the groundwork. Can you just explain the difference between somebody that has a narcissistic personality style and say, someone who just has an inflated ego?
- [09:45]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
So when we talk about narcissism, and it's something I've talked to you before, a carrot is not soup. A carrot is an ingredient in soup. An inflated ego is just a part of the larger spectrum of narcissism which also includes things like variable empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, the need for admiration and validation, envying other people, the need for control, on and on and on and on. A person with an inflated ego, am I willing to take the bet that they're narcissistic? Sure. But I'm not sure I'm gonna move all my chips to the middle of the table.
- [10:20]
Mel Robbins
One of the things that you said in the first episode that we did with you was you made a distinction between somebody who's annoying and that's someone with an inflated ego versus somebody who is narcissistic, who is harmful.
- [10:33]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Yeah, that's it. It's the harmful part. And I think that that's a key element because I think by definition, if a person really does have the whole constellation of stuff, you need to have to be narcissistic. Inflated ego is definitely part of it, but there are people out there who have these big inflated egos, but they're actually kind of. These also can be very Teddy bear ish. They almost sound like, I don't know, like circusy people. Like, I'm the best. I'm the greatest. Come here, give me a hug. I think you're so great too. And they're actually very sweet and present. So it's a. That's why I'm saying you can't assume. Do they tend to go together like it's a bet, right? Do I. If I see inflated ego, am I willing to bet that this horse might be narcissistic?
- [11:13]
Mel Robbins
Sure. You know, one thing I want to do to defend you is that this person had asked, are we mistaking personality traits with a clinical diagnosis? You've been very vocal in your work about saying this is a personality style and that people on the Internet are diagnosing other people with narcissism. Correct. And the other thing to keep in mind is that the second that you click on a TikTok video or an Instagram reel that is about narcissism, you're gonna see more of it. What you're here to say is that this is a personality style and that it is critical that you recognize the signs of it, because it is a personality style that is maladaptive, that hurts other people. And I learned that in the first episode we did with you that we will le link to this one. Is it best to leave my narcissistic husband or stay for the sake of my children? My 7 year old is terrified of my husband when he rages. I don't think it's best for me to remain, but I'm wondering if I should wait until they are older or grown to leave.
- [12:12]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
This right here is the question of all survivors who are in the situation like this. Rageful narcissist. Likely not a good parent child is Scared of them. But then there is that big thing called family court. And the one thing the narcissistic person knows well is how to punish you. Now, once they figure out that messing with custody is going to destroy your soul, they're going all in. And most judges in this country will award 50% to the other parent if they ask for it, which is a lot of time spent away from the parent who's the healthier parent. And this is what people grapple with. And here's what's so challenging, Mel. This is one of those cases where I'm not going to be able to give a good answer. Because you're at the crossroads where you either get the divorce, deal with the custody set up, know that there's times your child is alone with that parent that they're scared of, okay? Or you stick it out. Some parents get solace from knowing they're present, so at least they can run interference for that child with this toxic parent. They might wait until the child, they feel more able to sort of autonomously make needs known. There is no right answer here. Some of this is going to come down to money. Are you going to be able to secure housing for you and your child and your children the way you want? Getting access to mental health for that child while before you ever make a decision on a divorce is crucial, because I can promise you this, once that marriage splits and you don't make the proper stipulations in the parenting agreement, that parent will stop therapy. I see this happen over and over again. They insist on two party consent for things like mental health services, and then the narcissistic parent won't sign. It's back to court, back to court, back to court. So get that child into therapy while you only need the signature of one parent because you're both still married. Get your ducks in line, talk to a divorce attorney, pay whatever they charge for an hour, go in there, prepared tax returns, whatever you need, and ask them, what am I looking at? What are the laws of this state? Because they're different in every state. What am I looking at with custody? What am I looking at with money? I think the problem is, is that too many people don't go into this conversation prepared. Marriage is a legal contract. Make no mistake, people read their rental car contracts more carefully than they understand exactly what the hell they're getting into when they marry someone. And so figure this out. Even if you're not going to get divorced for 10 years, getting that clear feedback from a divorce attorney makes a huge difference in your decision making. When I read a message like this, this is the first time somebody vocalizes that they're considering leaving. I know that they're on their way out. It may take five years, it may take eight years. They might even wait till that child's 18th birthday, which I cannot tell you how many people I know waited till midnight on their child's 18th birthday. And then they started the process. By that next day, they had filed for divorce. No custody involved.
- [15:13]
Mel Robbins
I have to be honest with you. I really wish you were gonna say get out now. No, because never. I know. I'm just being honest because you want a clear cut answer and there's not one.
- [15:26]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
The systems don't allow it. Mel. Family court is one of the most abusive systems in this country. There are people involved in court reform. The stuff they bring to me, I'm thinking this is not in the best interest of the child. If you unlucky with a judge, you're screwed.
- [15:40]
Mel Robbins
Well, and also, I think all of us have some friend or family member that is watching a divorce play out a decade later, constantly going back into court. Because it's a way for somebody with a narcissistic personality style to continue punishing and being in control.
- [15:58]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's called post separation abuse. It's a formal thing, but it's post separation especially. They keep going and going and going. But I will say this and something I tell many, many parents, a mistake they make. I think too many people are like, I am going to fight for my child no matter what. And the narcissistic person grabs onto that and like, oh, is that your weak point? But if you. I remember once coaching a woman and she wanted to play this whole mother lioness thing. I'm like, slow it down. And instead, when she was at. They were having one of these many hearings they'd go through, she said, you know, I'm. I, this, this. And she was dying inside at the agreement that was coming down the pike. And she said, okay, that's great. You know what? Actually, these alternate weekends, this is going to work great for me because there are so many friends I've been wanting to connect with. And I've been, you know, I've been wanting to get back into some of this, you know, the hiking and climbing I was doing. This is actually, I'm going to really use the weekends. Well, you know, that fool, he's like, what? Yeah. No, no, don't think you're just going to. No, no, no, wait, wait. And so when she, when it got framed as you know, that's, she was totally cool headed, you know, she said totally fine. Get it. I'm actually. This, this is great. I mean, it's good to know this because, you know, I've been wanting to do this stuff and pursue this and, you know, so I'll be using that time well and I'm sure the kids will love spending time with you. And by the time the whole thing was done, 80, 20 instead of the 50. 50.
- [17:21]
Mel Robbins
Well, you are just hammering one message. Strategy, strategy, strategy. Acceptance, Everything of what it is. You're never changing this. It's only gonna get worse. Worse. You gotta accept it. You gotta be strategic. All right, I've got rapid fire questions and for you listening, I know you're getting so much already, but I want to tell you to stay with us. I want to take a quick pause so you can hear a word from our sponsors. Our sponsors allow me to bring somebody amazing like Dr. Ramani to you at zero cost. When we come back, one of the questions that I saw the most in the inbox for Dr. Ramani, she's going to answer it. You do not want to miss this. Stay with us. If you've ever wanted to learn a new language, I want to introduce you to one of our sponsors, Rosetta Stone. I love these guys because they make learning language so easy, even for somebody like me that has dyslexia. In fact, I used Rosetta Stone last summer to learn a little Greek before my trip degrees. Let me tell you, it made such a difference. Just being able to say a few words in Greek made me feel so much more connected and cool. When you're able to say thank you or rather efforto at restaurants, hotels, or in taxis, you just open up opportunities to connect. And the best part, Rosetta Stone makes it easier than ever. No boring memorization. No confusing grammar rules. You don't have to become fluent if you don't want to. Just quick immersive lessons that fit into your life. You can practice over your morning coffee, while waiting for appointments, even while traveling through airports. It's that easy. So if you've been thinking like I'm always thinking, I should learn to speak a different language, don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential.
- [18:55]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Now.
- [18:55]
Mel Robbins
The Mel Robbins podcast, listeners, that's you can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com Mel to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com Mel and start learning today.
- [19:16]
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- [19:45]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Yeah, sure thing.
- [19:47]
Mel Robbins
Hey, you sell that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest, over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.
- [20:05]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Just like that.
- [20:06]
Mel Robbins
Yep. No hassle. None.
- [20:08]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That is super convenient.
- [20:10]
Mel Robbins
Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience.
- [20:13]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Pick up these mail plus life.
- [20:20]
Mel Robbins
Welcome back. Thanks for listening to the sponsors and being here for this remarkable conversation with Dr. Ramani Diversola, one of the world's leading experts on narcissism. Today, she is taking your questions from listeners around the world. So, Dr. Rahmani, this next question is one about leaving someone. How do you deal with a narcissist who won't accept your boundaries? My mom is a narcissist, and whenever I try to set a boundary, she will act receptive or understanding at first. Then an hour or two later, she will change her mind, reject my boundary request. Unfortunately, the minute you disagree with her or upset her, she tries to, quote, punish you by cutting you out of her life.
- [20:58]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Right. So setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine. It's really a bad idea and it's a fool's errand. Right. I'm tired of people giving guidance to people like set boundaries.
- [21:10]
Mel Robbins
Wait, why aren't we supposed to.
- [21:12]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Not with narcissist. You said them with everybody else. But this is a pointless endeavor. And all it does is create more friction in this kind of drama this person's having with their mother, who is silent treatmenting and being sullen and all these other things. So this idea of setting boundaries with a narcissistic person, I always say it's an inside job. And where you're there, if you say to them, I don't want you to talk about this, I don't want you to come this, you are basically inviting them to do that thing because they know they can mess with you. All right? So unless you Want to spend the remainder of your time on this planet getting into a power struggle with them, which I just said you cannot win, then your better bet is to set an internal boundary, which is, I now know that these topics are off limits. I know that if I invite this person to this event, this is going to happen. So I'm going to have to figure out an alternative. I know if I make a reservation with them for dinner, they're going to show up 25 minutes late. So I need to make a reservation at that place that seats us when we're not yet a complete party. Some people say, well, you're enabling the narcissist. You're actually not. Because there's no setting a boundary with them. And you want to have the dinner and you may have to invite them, but at least you all can start eating. And when they come in and say, how dare you start with us. We said to come at seven, you didn't come at seven. They seated us when we started eating. You set a boundary.
- [22:38]
Mel Robbins
I love that distinction. Because you're right, when you say, I'm gonna set a boundary with somebody who's narcissistic, it implies that you're gonna tell them about it versus you're just saying, just understand the situation for what it is. Understand the person is not changing. Recognize the patterns and set sort of this boundary with yourself. Like for me, the one that I have in my life with a particular person is. It's a three night limit.
- [23:05]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That's right.
- [23:06]
Mel Robbins
Because by day four, this person gets prickly.
- [23:10]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
So you, Mel, you would never say to that person, we have a three night limit.
- [23:14]
Mel Robbins
No. Oh my God, no.
- [23:17]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That would be. This what a lot of people would say. Well, if a person is saying things that offend you, you need to say that thing you're saying is offending me. Tiger's cage. Try that with a narcissist. Call me up, let me know how that works.
- [23:29]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, and like, I also don't set the boundaries that are like, I don't talk about politics with you because you're an absolutely irrational freak that then dominates the conversation if anybody asks a question or tries to offer a different point of view. I set a boundary with myself. I get up from the table, I don't engage.
- [23:50]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That's right, that you don't engage.
- [23:51]
Mel Robbins
Because I know exactly what's about to happen. I have no hope of it being different. I have accepted it. I set the boundary. I don't engage in this stuff. I remove myself.
- [23:59]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That's a boundary, not what this poor person, unfortunately is trying to do the impossible with the mother and will be forever disappointed.
- [24:05]
Mel Robbins
Right? Because if you go, mom, let's not talk about politics. You don't wanna talk about politics. Cause you don't like. Yeah, we all know how that goes. Yep, got it. Internal boundaries only.
- [24:14]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
I said boundaries are an inside game.
- [24:17]
Mel Robbins
I love that my child is a narcissist teenager. How can I help them?
- [24:25]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Okay, so first of all, let's always slow our roll when we're using the word narcissism and teenager. Okay? By definition, adolescence is a phase of life where the child is going through something called separation and individuation. Adolescents are tough, right? They are mean to their parents and often quite lovely with their peers. And there's a reason for that. The separation individuation process means that the peers are more of a meaningful social referent point. So they'll actually be lovely with their peers, listen to their problems, pick them up late at night, bring them soup when they're sick, and scream at you if you even dare mention emptying the dishwasher. And there's a common sort of therapist talk is that an adolescent is often going through a phase we call shitting the nest.
- [25:08]
Mel Robbins
Shitting the nest.
- [25:09]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Shitting the nest. And if they shit the nest, then it's a lot easier for everyone to say get out, and for the kid to leave, like, this is gross. I don't want to be here. So all the that mean behavior is sometimes part and parcel of shitting the nest. So we have to be able to figure out if it's that. Narcissism is a story that can be told beautifully backwards, but it's very difficult to tell forwards and in real time. With an adolescent, for example, what I mean is, show me a 35 year old narcissist and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who is horrible as a teenager. I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35. Really. The frontal lobes are continuing to develop a lot of that kind of lack of social awareness, impulsivity, all that's sitting up here. That part does not fully cement and set until around 25, 26, 27 years old. Adolescents really, if you want to look at it developmentally, doesn't matter that they can drive and vote and buy alcohol. It really is. It goes until about 25, 26, that's when adulthood starts. So I'd say to people of narcissistic adolescence, white knuckle this a bit. Have whatever limits you need in your household, be realistic about them. Remember the concept of shitting the nest and put a pin in it for about eight years and then revisit.
- [26:24]
Mel Robbins
So let's just kind of unpack this a little bit because I'm sure there's a ton of you that are listening right now that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But what if I am seeing narcissistic traits?
- [26:36]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Yeah.
- [26:37]
Mel Robbins
Because one of the things that you have. Okay, well let me just stop right there because you just said you probably are. What you're saying is that the very natural, normal and mentally healthy process of a teenager separating from their parents is for them to become more egotistical, more demonstrative, more selfish, and to prioritize entitled. Entitled. However, if you are seeing that and you are concerned, and maybe you're concerned because you're in a family system or grandparents are narcissistic, or you have an ex who is narcissistic, so you do have some concern. Is there something that you can model that helps to keep somebody on a adaptive personality track versus spinning into more of a maladaptive? Or are you basically saying there's really not much you can do but white knuckle yourself?
- [27:32]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
You want to be sure?
- [27:33]
Mel Robbins
Yes.
- [27:34]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Figure out how your kids are behaving with their peers. Because if they have healthy peer relationships that seem reciprocal, that seem mutual, if other adults are having good experience, if you're, if you're a friend with a parent, that of a kid that they hang out with and that parents like your kid's great like, then this is definitely the adolescent nonsense of shitting the nest. Right. Because they're able to show up as solid people for other people. If, however, they're behaving horribly across the board, mistreating peers, having problems in school, then you're much more likely to be dealing with narcissism. Does that make sense?
- [28:09]
Mel Robbins
That makes a lot of sense. And is there anything, if you're seeing that, that you can do, or is this already just a bed that's made?
- [28:18]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's a tough one at that point, I think that it is not getting into a power struggle with them becomes crucial. Because if indeed you've got this difficult across the board, difficult with the teachers, difficult with you, difficult with peers, kind of kid difficult in their, you know, their part time job, whatever, getting into a power struggle with them, you're going to lose it. You're not gonna win. Because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic. Narcissistic. And with an adolescent that's going to be even more amped up because they don't feel a sense of power because they're still in your good graces and all of that. So don't get into a power struggle. Okay? Don't basically, don't let the dishwasher be the hill you die on because it's really not worth it. Right. But it's because what. Where adolescent. Where narcissism is in adolescence, other bad behaviors are also likely to hang out, including things like substance use. And so what you really do want to watch for is actually keep more of an eye on, is your kid safe? How is their mental health functioning in other areas? If you are able to encourage therapy, that kid's probably going to say no. It's worth a shot. Definitely figure out what it is that does speak to them and cultivate their interest in that. Because if there's something that they like, maybe it's music, maybe it's a form of sport, maybe whatever it is, show some interest in what they do. Because we can get so caught up in the power struggle of you're going to empty the dishwasher if it's the last thing you do versus who's this kind of difficult kid of mine? But we get so caught up in the difficult of it all, we don't pay attention to, like, what do they like? So you might see them playing a video game, right? Instead of like, oh, these kids and their video games. It's, you never empty the dishwasher. All you do is play the video games. Like, what's this game about? Like what talk to me about. I'm just curious.
- [30:01]
Mel Robbins
Now.
- [30:02]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
You probably get a lot of me me, but you never know.
- [30:05]
Mel Robbins
Well, I think it gets in there. I think you pull a chair up and you just sit next to them and you just sit by them while they're playing the video game. And even just doing that shows a level of interest. And so I love that advice. Now the next question that I have is, I don't know. Like, it's a good question. Can a narcissist actually be legitimately in love with somebody? Oh, I can see Dr. Rahmani's wheels already spinning. So we're going to take a quick pause to hear a word from our sponsor, and she's going to have that answer for you when we return. Stay with us.
- [30:45]
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- [31:14]
Mel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel. If you love the Mel Robbins podcast, you're going to love this. If you want to hear all the new episodes ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM PodcastPlus to start your free trial today. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and I'm here with the amazing Dr. Rahmani Diversola. We are taking your questions about narcissism and one of our listeners wants to know, is there any way for a narcissist to find true love with a partner? I mean like a personality type that a narcissist could be with, where both people are happy.
- [31:56]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
So now we get into philosophy, right? What is love? Is there a universal definition? And the problem is, no, there's not. I think probably the most powerful thing people could do by their third date. I wish, you know how you go to the doctor, they make you sign the informed consent. Yes, I wish we had that for love. Say, put your piece of paper in front of someone. This my definition of love. Because their definition of love is very transactional and they're not aware of what their definition of love, their definition of love is basically, I'm going to swallow you up whole. You are going to be for me, it's a very romantic, passionate definition of love. What they're not good at is long term companionate love. So this idea of true love, right, with all the depth that's implied, the mutuality, the reciprocity, the better or worse, the standing at someone's side, side, even when they get older or need care or need help or, you know, who are more starting to get more successful than you. All the things that would throw a narcissistic person off. I would say the short answer to that question is probably not on the basis of what we consider healthy love to be. Theirs is a much, much more shallow, shallow definition for them. Love is very romantic, very passionate, very flash in the pan, very crush. That's what it is. It's not the deep, deep stuff.
- [33:18]
Mel Robbins
It's not give and take is what I've learned.
- [33:20]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's not only not give and take, it's not good times and bad and it's also very status conscious. And appearance conscious. This is why you see again, when a person who has been through a 30 year marriage with kids, then trades in for a 27 year old partner and they're 60.
- [33:39]
Mel Robbins
Based on everything that you've taught us and that I've learned from your work, when I read between the lines of this question, which I probably shouldn't, is there any way for a narcissist to find true love? I imagine somebody who is holding out hope that there could be a possibility.
- [33:59]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Or fear, or fear that the narcissist will go on and find true love with someone new. Because that's the big fear of people who are left. So the narcissistic person, you're with someone, right?
- [34:09]
Mel Robbins
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Narcissistic person leaves, they find new supply right away, immediately. Right, okay. And you're of course going through a real grief process, so you're struggling with it. The big fear is now they found their new person, are they going to change for the new person? Are they going to be better for the new person? Are they going to find true love for the new person? That's how I read that question. And the answer to that's no. I watched someone go through this a couple years ago, had a very up and down narcissistic relationship with someone, went on for years, yada, yada, yada, and then they break up. And inside of a few months, he meets someone new. Soulmate, soulmate, soulmate, shoot me. Bing, bing, bing. Alarm signs. And they get engaged in like two months, right? And the, the person was still struggling, like was having trouble meeting people and, you know, was just sort of having a dark night of the soul. And this person seems like they moved on. And it was of little solace to this person who was sort of left that this is not. And there's no depth. This is all performative. For narcissistic people, love is performative. And this is where the social media has changed things, right? Because the performative love relationship is very much a staple of Instagram. Look how happy we are. Look how cute we are. We're van life ing. We're traveling. We're so great in love. My lovey bear lovey. Never in my life could there be a hero like you. You are my love hero. And then these fools break up in three months. Nobody goes from love hero to broken up. Like this whole thing was a lie. So it again, every therapist knows the more they gush about the relationship on social media, the more it's a train wr. And so it's performative Dr. Ramani, how.
- [35:48]
Mel Robbins
Do I deal with a narcissistic adult son who uses our grandchildren as leverage for the silent treatment, blame and manipulation?
- [35:58]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
So this is a very common dynamic and I'm so glad someone's asking about this. So you have a narcissistic adult child, fully grown, obviously has gotten into a relationship, has kids, all of that, right. The grandchildren becomes the greatest leverage of all, leverage on the planet. And this is devastating for parents who on multiple levels, number one, because it's. Narcissism is a developmental state, many parents will say, what did I do wrong? Am I partly responsible for this? And it's particularly devastating if you did co parent that child with a narcissist and you did your very best. You might have even been that co parent who actually protected your kid but couldn't get out of the relationship, or they were having to spend time with the narcissistic co parent, whatever it may be that you did what you could, but you could not outrun this thing, right? So that can be even more devastating. So there's a sense of complicity that parents feel that you don't see in any other form of sort of narcissistic relationship. Number one, then they have kids and you love those grandchildren. And now your narcissistic son recognizes that they've basically got you over a barrel. It's the ultimate tool of manipulation. With narcissistic people, the struggle is that it's very easy to create the monster by giving in to them, right? They get used to it. And what we do is we have to ask ourselves from a radical acceptance standpoint. In fact, something I talk about in the book is something called a person's true north, right? That your true north is how I always tell people, don't engage with the narcissist. Narcissist. It's going to get you nowhere. Simple answers. Disengage, disengage, disengage, right? But the concept of your true north is the one time you will take the fight, right? Whatever that might be. It might mean the workaround you'll do. It might be the argument you might have. It might be the tiger's cage you're willing to go into because it might be about you might be willing to take the fight for your kid or your grandkid. You might be willing to take the fight because somebody is saying something that's so noxious to you, it's racist or some form of bias or something like that. In this particular case, this grandparent has to assess the true north of their grandchildren. Because the fact is, odds are that it's basically an extortionate setup, right? To see the grandchildren, they have to do the dance dictated by their son. And so the radical acceptance may very well be that there are times they may not always get to see these grandchildren and the grief that goes with that. It's figuring out the true north. Maybe the birthday party is your everything. So that might be. It's almost like a negotiation. You're going to give in on certain things with this son if they're something you can do. So you can be at the true north of the birthday party or the graduation or having them going on the vacation with them or not. So it becomes a constant calibration to where do I want to see these kids? Where am I willing to relent? Because he's forever going to have you over a barrel. So it's also, if this person does they fully, radically accept their son's behavior, they may still be trying to change their son's behavior. They may have hope for change. You're going to have to eradicate that. In many ways, their son has been brought down to nothing more than the portal to those grandchildren. So instead of putting behavioral standards on the son who is narcissistic, they have to figure out what the ritualistic dance they need to do is to go through the portal to see the grandkids.
- [39:20]
Mel Robbins
Gotcha. And so the radical acceptance there is really just understanding this is what it is.
- [39:26]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
This is what it is. That's it.
- [39:27]
Mel Robbins
And I can hate the dance I have to do. I can hate the kind of hoops I have to jump through, but it's more important to me because I value a relationship with these grandkids. And I understand this is the access point, right?
- [39:42]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
And it could very well be, we don't know this. Cause they didn't make it clear in the question. They may be talking to their son as though they think he's listening to them like a normal person person would. A mistake a lot of people make with narcissistic people is they. They actually try to appeal to some sensitivity in them. Like, we love your children so much. We would do anything for them. Like we, blah, blah, blah, save you the money on the babysitter. Blah, blah, blah, we'll do anything. Can't you see how much we care about them? Da da da da da. We've made trust fund. Whatever the hell it is people are saying about the grandkids, they're not listening. They're not going to pay attention. All they see is that I have got the ultimate tool here to get what I need from these people. And if you have an adult narcissistic child, if I can only, you know, sort of issue, sort of one warning, make sure your finances are in order and safe. Because an adult narcissistic child, it is not unusual for them to prey on older parents, try to get their names on the note of a house, try to get power of attorney in a way they're going to abuse. Make sure that if you do have stuff to hand down, you work with a good attorney. It's hard to think of this way about your own child. But, Mel, if I could tell you some of the stories I've seen with the way adult narcissistic children have completely plowed through their parents money and really put their parents in a precarious spot. I'm not saying that's the case in this one, but you've got to be careful of all these angles. And if this son, for example, is at all trying to get into the family's money, in some ways it almost becomes a pay to play whatever you're paying to do, you know, to play. You've got to be aware of that.
- [41:18]
Mel Robbins
Well, I think if somebody's willing to use innocent kids as human capital to manipulate adults to get what you want, that seems a lot more egregious than manipulating you to get your money.
- [41:30]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Yep.
- [41:31]
Mel Robbins
You know, I've seen this question a lot in the form of how do I deal with the fact that my adult child is now married to or engaged to somebody who's narcissistic and that new partner is turning them against us. And this feels like it's similar. But how do you counsel parents that recognize that this is actually what's happening? We had a great relationship with our adult child. Now they're in a relationship with somebody else. It feels like that person is turning our child against them. How do you counsel somebody in that situation? Is it the same thing?
- [42:18]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
No, it's different. Right. Because in the case of the narcissistic son, they're sort of a direct line to the son. Right. They've known the son his whole life. You know, who knows what historically has happened. They may, you know, may very well be that they're like, yeah, we dropped the ball when he was little and now we've been trying to make amends ever since. And now that he's got kids and we want access to the kids, we actually, in some ways it's like it's the spoiled child Phenomenon. They're doing anything the son wants. That's their own kid. Now if you have a kid that's yours and you have a great relationship with them into adulthood, your kid is not narcissistic, right? But they meet someone narcissistic, that's a very different situation because, you know, your kid has the apparatus, the solid apparatus of, of goodness, whatever, that you know, at least to be a. Have a mutual and reciprocal relationship with you. So the, the big mistake, people will say, especially when your pers. Your child is in love with someone and is about to get married and is in sort of the blissy state that you say, I'm worried that they're narcissistic is the biggest mistake you could make. You never want to do that. You want to try to illuminate the patterns without saying, like, what he said was toxic or that wasn't okay, but rather dropping in the lines in the water. Like things like, hey, you okay? Like, we're not hearing from you as much. Is everything okay now? You might hear them say, like, gosh, what's wrong with you? Like, I have my own life now. Say, no, no, no, I hear that. Like, I just, I completely understand. Like, you wanna, you wanna keep feeling it out. Feeling it out. There's actually, we can take a page out of the playbook of what happens to people when family members recognize a family member's in a cult. Dr. Yanya Lalitsch, she talks about, about doing something called Breaking the Shelf. Okay, what she means is that when you have a family member who goes into a cult, you can't say, yo, you're in a cult. Because they're gonna say, no, I'm not. This is my group of healing friends that want to self develop together, right? And they're gonna say, they told me you would say this. I knew it. To hell with you. And the cult's gonna want them to cut that parent off, right? So what she says is, you, you need to do is you want to break the shell. And what that means is remind them of the life they had before the cult. So it's gentle conversations like, oh my gosh, you're not going to believe this. You remember how you love to surf? You know, I was, it's so weird. I was just driving down the, you know, the old street, that street. And you know, he, he made this, the surfboard shop, so much bigger. Like, how, how are you doing? Like, how's the surfing going? You're planting like, you're not surfing anymore, are you? Or we're getting ready for whatever the ski trip and what you're just reminding them, like, I remember how much you wanted to write. Like, how's that going? Like, have you been writing more? Whatever you're writing, but you're trying to bring them back to themselves. And sometimes. So we know you're not even talking about the partner. You're talking about the them who is likely getting lost in this relationship. You might have a better chance of doing what Dr. LA calls breaking the shelf and being. Letting them then be able to start to see, like, okay, something's changing. It's not always a sure thing, but ideally you can then say, especially if you notice a difficult interaction. Instead of saying that wasn't okay, you might want to say, hey, are you okay? I just saw that. I just wanted to check in.
- [45:31]
Mel Robbins
That's great, because then you get the wheels turning.
- [45:34]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
That's all you want to do is turn the wheels.
- [45:36]
Mel Robbins
Got it. Okay. This is a really juicy question. Okay. Even though it's really, like, not okay, it's sad. Dr. Ramany, my dad is a perverted narcissist. I don't know what that means, but is a perverted narcissist and has psychopathic traits. He has met a woman he is very interested in. This woman is in a higher tax bracket than him and has never married. And he has her wrapped around his finger. He's presented a version of himself to her that is not real. And he's using the same methods he used on my mom. I feel like I can't let her get sucked into his lies, but is it my position to do so? It irks me so badly to see the mask he presents. And it upsets me that it took her less than a month to fall for his performance.
- [46:34]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Did this person call the father a psychopath?
- [46:37]
Mel Robbins
Yes.
- [46:37]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Okay, so let's use this question as a jumping off point on the difference between narcissism and psychopathy. Right?
- [46:43]
Mel Robbins
Okay.
- [46:43]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
I don't know if this person's father is psychopathic or it's going to go on good faith. They believe they are. There's a difference. Okay. Even the most malignant narcissist is not going to be psychopathic. When we jump the rails into psychopathy, we're talking about someone who is cold, callous, calculating, deceitful, lacks any empathy, lacks remorse, is often superficially charming, can be very intelligent, has an incredible capacity for running a hustle. These are. These are your grifters. Okay? These are people who are able to create very, very elaborate lies, live double lives Live parasitic lifestyles, go and destroy one person's life, move someplace else, and leave no sort of no trace of any of that. Right. Drawing someone into a new relationship very quickly where that person's falling under their control is very classically something that a psychopath is able to do. Because psychopathic people lack remorse, they can do far more harm to another person. In addition, psychopathic people don't have the insecurity and the anxiety we classically see in narcissism. Narcissism is still a sort of. A little bit more of a chaotic interior. Psychopathic people are just cold and callous. And so that seems to be what might be the case here. Now, the way she's describing is that this person was able to trick another person within a month. That's very classically, you know, either. Yeah, it's more psychopathic than it is malignant, narcissistic. And the question is, do you warn? And many psychopathic people can be dangerous, Mel. So I wanna make sure this person is safe. Like, I mean, listen, I don't know if you've ever remembered the story, the really popular podcast from way back of Dirty John, right. That Dirty John was a guy who. The same kind of grift, and it culminated quite tragically, he almost killed the woman he had twisted around. He almost killed her daughter. Okay? That's why I'm saying that these people are dangerous because if anyone gets in the way of their grift, of their hustle, they will eradicate them. So assuming this woman is safe, okay, so I'm just gonna put that gigantic caveat.
- [49:00]
Mel Robbins
You are safe. Okay?
- [49:02]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
I don't think the new woman's gonna believe her. A month in is very, very fresh. It is. This person is fully indoctrinated, being heavily love bombed. Right. They're not going to believe this. And that the psychopath has already gotten to the new partner and told the new partner, my daughter is jealous. I think she's kind of weirdly in love with me. He has crafted a whole story about the daughter. So that makes the daughter look insane. All right? So when the daughter goes to new partner and says this, the odds are that the psychopathic father has already done this homework.
- [49:37]
Mel Robbins
This is a hard thing, though, because if you value the truth and if I take to heart everything that you taught us in the previous two episodes that we've done with you recently about the fact that part of the biggest barriers to your own healing from somebody like this is a sense of hope that it's gonna change and the feeling of injustice. And to me, I would really wrestle with the fact that based on my values, I'd want to be like, get rid of this motherfucker. Like, he's, like, he's bad news. But on the other hand, how.
- [50:13]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
But she can go up to her and say, I want you to know this. I don't know what he's told you. Ideally, show up with documentation. This is who he really is, this is who he's really about. Then she's done her God's work of the day. And when this new person doesn't believe it, then that's no longer her problem.
- [50:35]
Mel Robbins
Got it? And as long as you can do that safely, safely, and that is something that you feel like doing, whether it's cause you feel the need to get justice served on behalf of you and your mom or not is irrelevant.
- [50:47]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
You might just honestly wanna protect the new person.
- [50:50]
Mel Robbins
Okay. Gosh. Wow, this is a sad topic.
- [50:53]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's a very sad topic.
- [50:54]
Mel Robbins
How do you keep from getting like beaten down by this?
- [50:58]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's not always easy. Like I do actually get sad quite a bit and I keep to myself and I guess in some ways I live a very simple life. And I think there's a reason for that because I think otherwise. It's a lot. I don't trust people as much. I mean, it's kind of a sad, sad thing.
- [51:14]
Mel Robbins
That is sad. But I'm glad that you're putting it to use to help us.
- [51:19]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
It's my pleasure. I find the work is so. I've seen people helped and that is really, that really matters.
- [51:27]
Mel Robbins
All right, I've got rapid fire questions. My aging mother is a narcissist and I'm the one who has to take care of her. How can I make this time bearable?
- [51:36]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
You have to keep orienting it to who you are. Many, many people will say, I cannot believe now that it's all coming to a close and it's falling on my shoulders. But people have to sometimes have to say like, no, I'm a compassionate person. This is an old person. I don't know what would happen to them otherwise. Really put yourself into that role of I am showing up almost like a nurse of an abusive patient. They're prepared. They're going to yell, they're going to scream. Do not expect gratitude. It's going to be a nightmare. Have therapy, have supports, make sure you have meaningful pursuits outside of this caregiving. But you almost have to go into an automaton state. But also connect it to the human being I am, is Compassionate, good and empathic. And this is an old person who needs to be cared for. I can't stand her. But I'll be damned if I let this woman leave me. Like, I'm not a compassionate person.
- [52:30]
Mel Robbins
Ooh. Do it for yourself.
- [52:31]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Do it for yourself.
- [52:33]
Mel Robbins
My father is a narcissist. Have not talked to him in five years. I would like to reopen the door, but I'm terrified I'm going to get hurt. How do I protect myself?
- [52:42]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Well, he's going to hurt you. So what you have to ask yourself, what's your agenda after five years? What are you hoping for? If you think that in five years. Because what's happened to this person in five years, Mel? They've healed.
- [52:54]
Mel Robbins
Or maybe not.
- [52:56]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
There's two levels. There is the. The deeper soul healing that may have happened, Right? But I want you to think of it as somebody's had a massive surgery that was going to be difficult to. To heal from. And when they're in the midst of the acute acuity of it, they're like, I am never going to be able to walk again. And then five years in, they're like, I'm going, I'm running up the stairs, right? And so now she's running up the stairs. But what might still be happening is that internally, there's still. Now when you're running up the stairs again, euphoric recall. We forget what it's like. This is why this ick list becomes a living document.
- [53:29]
Mel Robbins
Remind everybody of the ICK list.
- [53:30]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
The ick list is a list you make of all the terrible things that are being said and done in that relationship. Everything from ruined my wedding to, you know, to lie to me about who my parent was, to when I ask for a loan that would have made a difference, didn't give it to me, and I'm still paying off the extortionate loan I got to insulted my children's weight. Like, write it all, cheated on me with my best friend. Whatever's on your list, write it down. When you think possibility of changes, or you need to look at that and say, why would I even interact with this person? But in this case, after five years, some people may say, I know that I know this person's limitations. So you have to ask yourself, if this person comes at me again, will I be able to withstand this? Or will this take a toll on me? That's a question only they can answer. Some work I tend to do in therapy with clients is we play it out as a role play.
- [54:27]
Mel Robbins
Dr. Ramani, compassionate I'm like, don't be a dumb motherfucker. This guy has not changed at all, and you're walking into the tiger's cage. Please, please. Caution, caution, caution. At least read Dr. Ramany's bestselling book, it's not yout. Listen to her podcast. Watch her YouTube channel. Your advice is transformative, and the message is clear. They are not changing, but you can. We love you.
- [54:56]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Thank you. Thank you so much, Mel.
- [54:58]
Mel Robbins
You know, I kind of ended on a joke, but your message is actually really empowering, because when you understand what you're dealing with, you can take the steps to protect yourself and still act aligned with your values. But you have to accept what you're dealing with and give up hope that it's changing and walk into it with that understanding. And one more thing before I leave, I want to make sure that you hear from me in case nobody else tells you, because if you're surrounded by narcissists, nobody has that. I believe in you. I know Dr. Ramany believes in you too. And I love you. And I believe in your ability to take everything you're learning and use it to empower yourself to create a better life. I'll talk to you in a few days. Let's do this. Let me just get my hair up here because it'll flop down. All right, ready to start? Okay. All right, Dr. Ramany. Oh, no. Go. You take that.
- [55:58]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Go on. What am I gonna do? I felt like I had, like, still, and I was, like, shoplifted. And what do I do with this?
- [56:04]
Mel Robbins
You do whatever you want. We're gonna wait, and it's no big deal. You take.
- [56:09]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Wait.
- [56:09]
Mel Robbins
What am I doing? Oh. Oh, my God. Okay, you ready? Okay. Gotcha.
- [56:14]
Dr. Ramani Diversola
Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I was about to start clapping, too.
- [56:22]
Mel Robbins
Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher.
- [57:02]
Sponsor
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- [57:31]
Mel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel. If you love the Mel Robbins Podcast, you're going to love this. If you want to hear all the new episodes ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM PodcastPlus to start your free trial today.