Jefferson Fisher (3:56)

Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins (3:57)

And congratulations on your new book, the Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More.

Jefferson Fisher (4:03)

Thank you very much. I'm very proud of it. Very excited to help a lot of people.

Mel Robbins (4:07)

Well, I can't wait to dig in to the topic of how you can communicate effectively and hold onto your power, particularly when you're dealing with difficult, difficult people, challenging situations. But before we get into the tactics, can you just talk to the person listening? And if they take everything that you're about to teach them from your new book and they put it to use in their life, what are they gonna experience?

Jefferson Fisher (4:37)

They're going to experience a sense of control in knowing who they are and who they want to be. And by that I mean they will have a sense of control if they can stand their ground in that next conversation, they can handle that difficult, toxic person in their next conversation. And even more so, they'll be able to navigate who they want to be and where they want to go in their life simply by the words that they say next.

Mel Robbins (5:04)

What I love about your work and the reason why I'm so excited about your book is because it is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality. And I wanna invite you, as you're listening to the conversation today and getting to spend some time learning From Jefferson, I want you to think about someone in your life that is really difficult. It might be an ex spouse and you had a contentious breakup or divorce and you have to deal with them because of the kids. Maybe it's your mom or your father in law or a brother in law. Maybe you have a issue with a child or a boss at work. Just like tension, frustration, grudges, like all these things that can really make the dynamic challenging. Because I know that everything that you're gonna learn from Jefferson today is going to help you hold onto your power whenever you are going to need to deal with this person. And one of the things I'd love for you to just explain is how did the experience of being a trial lawyer really prime you and your expertise in being able to deal effectively with somebody who has a challenging personality or is argumentative. Like how did that shape you in the way that you approach this?

Jefferson Fisher (6:34)

I love that. Well, this is something you know very well about that is these difficult personalities, when you talk to them, it's often they're only difficult because they have a fear, an insecurity, a need. So instead of seeing it as a conflict, you see it as a bid for connection. They're wanting to feel like they can be heard, that they're important. What they say is somebody can acknowledge and care about it versus always having a poke and prod. So when I'm cross examining somebody, a lot of these techniques that I use has to do with one. I understand that just because I say something doesn't mean I have to swing at it. Just because they throw a ball doesn't mean I have to swing. You just let the pitch go by. Nobody can make me say anything that I don't want to say. The same way I don't have to respond even if they send a zinger at me. So there's that sense of control, of yeah, you can say what you need to say. That doesn't mean I need to say what I want to say. So there's this confidence that you can have from questioning people in the courtroom. Another would be understanding that conflict. That argument is simply a window into another person's struggle. When I'm representing a client and you're representing another client, a lot of the time it's a weird occupation though, if you think about it. People hire me to have beef with somebody I don't have beef with and then what makes it even harder is they hire somebody to have beef with me. So when you're arguing with that opposing attorney, he and I or she and I, we don't have any problems really. We're just taking on the problems of somebody else. And you can't. Arguments aren't something to win. And especially in a courtroom, you just give the evidence and the facts a voice. You advocate for those facts under the given law. So it's very different in that sense, but the same rules apply that the less you say, the more powerful you sound, the more confident you express yourselves, the more you seem more confident in yourself. So it's these little tips that I like to give from the courtroom that help me understand that difficult people are just people. We can all be difficult.

Mel Robbins (8:50)

So the thing that I'm already taking away is that even viewing someone as being super difficult or being narcissistic in their personality type or holding grudges or negative or whatever label you want to put that right there is already a problem because you already flipped it on its head and said, this is just a person that wants attention. This is a person who wants to be understood. And they don't feel understood, which is why you're getting all that negativity on the surface. And so if you, number one, if I'm listening and hearing you correctly, if you even just flip your viewpoint about this person to, hey, this is just another human being who has not the best way of trying to get themselves understood, that right there already lowers the intensity of the interaction.

Jefferson Fisher (9:46)

Yeah, it is that mindset. If you go into a knowing or telling and convincing yourself that this person is difficult, well, all of a sudden you've made it difficult for you. Well, what's to stop you from thinking this person is somebody I need to make sure I listen to? Sometimes the goal is too high. If your goal is they need to believe everything that I say, they need to do everything that I do, you're never going to get that. Instead, if you can go into the conversation with a much smaller goal, like, I want to make sure that they understand me. I want to make sure that I understand them. I want to make sure that I listen to them without interrupting. I want to make sure that I listen to the end of their sentences. That's very rare for people to listen to the end of somebody's sentence. So you find that often when it's a difficult conversation, you're the one that's called it difficult. You're the one who's made it difficult from the outset for yourself. You haven't had the conversation yet. Now you might know that person to be tend to have personalities or behaviors that can be seen Objectively as difficult. But often when you hear that person say, you don't listen to me, what they're saying on the inside is, I want to feel heard. I want you to connect with me. I want to be understood.

Mel Robbins (11:01)

How do you deal with somebody who, whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, nobody ever listens to me. Like, how do you respond to that?

Jefferson Fisher (11:09)

They come in hot and heavy like that. Nobody ever listens to me. Well, then you're going to be the opposite of that. You're going to pose questions for them. For example, that never. That's one word. That's an extreme. You're going to attach. I never listen to you. I want to make sure I understood that I never listen to you. Typically, they'll draw back from that because then you use an extreme. They know you have to listen to them. Then you go, pull it another layer. All right, Is it that you feel that I never listen to you, or is it that I actually objectively never listen? You go it again. Okay, so you feel like I don't listen to that? Well, let's talk about it. Let's keep going. It's helpful to know I'm here, I'm listening. I'd like to change that. You just find ways to go at it again.

Mel Robbins (12:00)

That was masterful. And I know I'm not the only one, Jefferson, who is now going to take that script and start using it with people in their life. And I'm thinking of one person in particular who, whenever they get upset, that's 1000% what they say. And I now know. Cause I'm learning from you. Listen to the end of the sentence. Take a beat. You also did this technique that I noticed where you lowered when I raised my voice, and you slowed the conversation down by simply slowing the pace of the question. And you're asking the question, not like a jerk, like, oh, so I never listen to you. Cause that's the other thing that people do.

Jefferson Fisher (12:51)

Right.

Mel Robbins (12:52)

Versus saying, I never listened to you.

Jefferson Fisher (12:57)

Yeah, it's powerful stuff. If you can. Anytime when somebody is going super high, they're yelling, you go even slower, you lower your voice, because then you're the one who sounds calm and in control. And they're the one that seems like they're on the extremes. Their voice and their brain and their ear will hear that, and they'll start to lower it because they don't like to be out in the extremes. So they'll start to slow themselves down. What I teach my clients is that the person that you see is often not the person you're talking to. And what I mean by that is I've had a client, not a client, but a witness that I was deposing. And he was ugly with me and he was big and brash and didn't like any of the questions I was asking him. And I asked him the question, so what are you struggling with today? I said, let's just set aside the case. What are you struggling with right now? And he went on to tell me about how he was having a hard time with his mother. He had just had to put her in a nursing home, assisted living. His father passed away. His brother was out in the oil field and he was the only one to take care of her. And he was just nervous about it. And he had been getting letters from attorneys. And so this big guy who was in front of me, even though he was being ugly to me in that conversation, I knew that the person I saw was not the person I was talking to. You have that when every conversation you have. Yeah, you see this person and they look mad and they look ugly. But who's the person you're talking to? It's the person behind the counter, the person who waits on you, the, the cashier. Every one of them is a chance to have connection with that person. Because who you talk to right then affects how they talk to everybody else. It's a, it's a ripple effect. How you talk to your kids affects how they're going to talk to their kids. How you talk to the person who takes your order. If you're rude to them, well, they're going to have a harder time talking to the people that, like they love when they go home. So it is a, it's a big circle of life in a way.

Mel Robbins (15:04)

Well, it's also what you're pointing to is you have power.

Jefferson Fisher (15:07)

Oh yeah.

Mel Robbins (15:07)

And we don't think about it that way. We get so wrapped up in the stress of our day to day lives that you forget that your words and your energy has tremendous power. And we give it away to other people. And particularly when somebody is a negative person or they're a difficult personality and you start to brace and you believe they have more power because of their bravado or their whatever or the fact that they're constantly gaslighting you or erupting or they pull the silent treatment. All of these things that are wildly emotionally immature but feels like they have more power over you. What you're saying is. No, no, no, no, no. You always have power.

Jefferson Fisher (15:55)

And I can Tell the listener right now the kind of power that they will have.

Mel Robbins (15:59)

What is it?

Jefferson Fisher (16:00)

So I've had people, one of the ones recently I had was there was a wife who emailed me and said I had an argument with my husband last night and I used one of your phrases and that was to de escalate a conversation or argument. I could have done better. She said without hesitation. He said to me, I could have done better too. She said, in our 18 years of marriage, he's never said that to me. There's little phrases that you can find that deescalate that that's true power that you can have in a relationship in terms of the ripple effect that the true you have a power to affect people you will never ever meet. And it's a wild thought, but it's true. I had somebody email me, this is probably two months ago, who said, I am somebody who helps with couples, foster homes and these parents were arguing. And I use one of your tips on how to communicate with them to get them to stop arguing and agree on something that will forever change their kids lives. I'll never meet these kids. They'll never know me. They will probably never know the guy who, who helped them and emailed me. But it's just little things of what you say today will truly change the future of other people. You'll never ever meet people who have autism who can now make friends just by how you say certain things and how they can communicate. Communicate. Everything about you can be compressed into what you say next. And it's a beautiful thing.

Mel Robbins (17:34)

What was the phrase that you are hearing that has someone with autism communicate better?

Jefferson Fisher (17:43)

They weren't sure exactly how to talk to their friends. They were always afraid that they were always left out of it. And so it was this mindset that I tell them is you just weren't supposed to be there and that's okay. You weren't supposed to be there. And that mindset this father told me helped his son understand if he wasn't invited just meant he wasn't supposed to be there. And that he found different ways of going, well, this is where I need to be. And finding people who wanted to spend time with him, but he was feeling really hurt that he wasn't getting invited to that party or that thing. And so it's this mindset of that happens, it's okay, you just, you weren't meant to be there, you were meant to be somewhere else. And that made them feel that he could make time for friends who cared.

Mel Robbins (18:29)

That's beautiful.

Jefferson Fisher (18:30)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (18:30)

Really beautiful. So what was the phrase that helped the parents stop arguing in the foster situation?

Jefferson Fisher (18:41)

Is this something we have to agree on? So a tip that I use is, is this something we have to agree on? Usually it's not. That stops arguments. It doesn't matter what the topic is. If you need to, you find that you're yang Yang over the small stuff, the little things. That often leads to the biggest arguments. You're getting these big arguments that go, what were we even? How did this even start? How do we even get here? Often you can put all that to rest when you just even ask, is this something we have to agree on? If it is, you can ask again, Is this something we have to agree on right now? So there's a timing element, too, because often people push arguments on you when you're not ready. They'll push conversation on you when you're not ready. You got five minutes. What they really mean is, hey, do you have about 48 minutes for me to tell you about something that you have no time for and your brain's locked into something else? And so they often push their own timing on you? So part of that standing up for yourself is defending your own time perimeter.

Mel Robbins (19:40)

Can you give me an example?

Jefferson Fisher (19:43)

Sure. So let's say you and I are choosing, let's say the. The best detergent. Okay.

Mel Robbins (19:52)

I don't know.

Jefferson Fisher (19:53)

That's just the first thing that came to mind.

Mel Robbins (19:56)

So let's say you're standing in the aisle at the grocery store and you grab detergent, and your spouse then questions the detergent.

Jefferson Fisher (20:07)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (20:07)

And these are these little things that become big things.

Jefferson Fisher (20:10)

And that's what happens the biggest. Typically, your biggest arguments stem from the smallest little inconvenience, especially if you're married.

Mel Robbins (20:17)

And you're saying that you're standing there in the grocery aisle and you say, do we have to agree on this right now?

Jefferson Fisher (20:23)

Exactly. Is this something we have to agree on at this moment, right now?

Mel Robbins (20:28)

And they go, no, no, it's not that big.

Jefferson Fisher (20:31)

Yeah, but in that moment, it just. If you're not thinking about it, you start getting worked up.

Mel Robbins (20:36)

And what I love about it, though, is it's a very kind way to cue someone else that they're pushing an argument on you.

Jefferson Fisher (20:44)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (20:45)

What is the best way to handle the knock, knock, knock. You got five minutes. And you know that with this person, it's 48. How do you respond to that to protect your time?

Jefferson Fisher (20:57)

If the automatic feeling within you is no, then the answer is, no, you don't. It's setting it later. I don't right now. Can we schedule this for tomorrow? What's your next week look like? Find ways to push it out because what you'll find is that five minutes they needed right Then that issue gets solved without you. They didn't really need it. They just came to talk.

Mel Robbins (21:19)

Amazing, Jefferson. I need to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors. But I have a couple more questions about this topic of how you de escalate and I'm curious if you have more strategies. And so let's hear a word from our sponsors. Make sure you share this episode with anyone in your life who could really use it, which is basically everybody. And don't go anywhere because Jefferson and I will be waiting for you after a short break. And we're going to keep on talking about how you de escalate conflict and arguments in a minute. Stay with us.

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Mel Robbins (23:56)

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. You and I are getting to spend time with the amazing Jefferson Fisher. So, Jefferson, you mentioned that there are a number of phrases that you teach people to help you de escalate. Are there others that come to mind other than is this something we need to agree on right now?

Jefferson Fisher (24:15)

There are phrases I'd say to help pull down defensiveness. Because often when I say something, the tendency, the default is for somebody to get defensive. And that's natural. It's biological. It's your body going, oh, I perceive a threat, I'm going to send it right back. That's what fight or flight is in that element. The fight is I will throw hard words at you. I want words to hurt you. Or if you're running from it, it's I gotta get out of here, slam the door. I gotta hang up. Finding different ways to de escalate situations and what I like to tell them is you tell them what you learned. So after listening to you, I learned that this topic is important to you. Or you tell them that they've been helpful. That's helpful to know. Simple as that. Or you tell them what you agree on. Using the word agree. That does not mean you have to agree with what they said. It just means they just need to hear that word. In other words, instead of focusing on the content of that conversation, it is I agree that this is something we need to talk about. I think I agree that this is a conversation worth having. Boom. Like that right there. All of a sudden pulls down their defensiveness. They heard the word. I agree. They heard that this conversation is worth talking about. Great. They don't have to continue to push and feel defensive about it. They don't have to keep proving to you on something.

Mel Robbins (25:36)

It goes back to your earlier point that it's a person that doesn't feel like they're being heard.

Jefferson Fisher (25:41)

Exactly.

Mel Robbins (25:42)

Huh.

Jefferson Fisher (25:42)

And if you need to, like shift away from that, the is this something we need to agree on? I like I could do better. I like maybe. So maybe you're right. Those are two that I use often. If I ever get an insult, maybe or a rude comment in the litigation world, somebody makes some kind of offhand comment, I say, well, maybe you're right, Maybe. So who am I to say? It's that element of I get to control entirely what you say. Is that going to affect me or not? I have entire control over that.

Mel Robbins (26:19)

You forget that because what people say, it does have an emotional impact on you. You are going to react, but you get to choose how you respond.

Jefferson Fisher (26:29)

Yeah. Especially if you always pick it up and carry it.

Mel Robbins (26:32)

Yes.

Jefferson Fisher (26:33)

So when it comes to taking things personally, for example, a quick tool for that is what I tell myself is, I'll just say, put it down, Jefferson. When I'm taking things personally, I'm picking up what nobody has asked me to carry. I'm choosing to carry it. And before I know it, I'm just. I can't even carry it anymore. And to me, how often you take things personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. Oh, meaning if you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt, it's. It's heavy. It's a heavy proposition. If you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt, instead of just waiting to see if truly that offhand look meant to say something to you, we recognize it as that. I thought you were mad at me.

Mel Robbins (27:20)

Yeah. You immediately internalize it, and you have no idea what's actually going on.

Jefferson Fisher (27:24)

Yeah. Somebody. You passed by, somebody in the hallway and they didn't say hello. Oh, they must be mad at me. No, they were just focusing on other things in their life.

Mel Robbins (27:33)

How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're, like, picking on your weight, or they're constantly like, are you still single? Like, you know how people, like, especially people that you're close with, have a way of belittling you?

Jefferson Fisher (27:48)

Right.

Mel Robbins (27:48)

What, what do you do in those.

Jefferson Fisher (27:50)

Situations when somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and a hurtful comment, you make them repeat it. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that. That response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it to say, I need you to say that again, I'm thinking of.

Mel Robbins (28:28)

Like, using this with a couple people in my life.

Jefferson Fisher (28:31)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (28:33)

We need to role play this.

Jefferson Fisher (28:34)

Sure.

Mel Robbins (28:35)

I'm trying to think of a scenario.

Jefferson Fisher (28:37)

Like you just said right there. You're still single.

Mel Robbins (28:40)

I need you to repeat that.

Jefferson Fisher (28:41)

Yeah. So exactly. I'm not going to want to say that again because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, did you say that to hurt me? And now it's this mirror that they feel like, why did. Why did I say that? Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if often I can just repeat what they said. So if somebody says to you, oh, so you're still single? I need you to say that again. Most likely they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. I'm still single. That's what you asked me. And all of a sudden they realized, this isn't fun. They're not going to ask that kind of thing again. Wow. Or you just ask that question of, did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. What I meant was. And all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground.

Mel Robbins (29:46)

Wow. This is like very eye opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things. And I'm thinking, particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I can think about our daughter out in Los Angeles. And every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, is that new? And I'm thinking in my mind, where do you get the money for this? You know, like that kind of thing. And then she's like, yeah, I thrifted it. And there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to.

Jefferson Fisher (30:31)

Me, if she was to ask, are.

Mel Robbins (30:33)

You trying to embarrass me?

Jefferson Fisher (30:34)

Yeah, exactly. Are you trying to insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?

Mel Robbins (30:40)

Because you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface. But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

Jefferson Fisher (30:49)

It's that mirror.

Mel Robbins (30:50)

Yes.

Jefferson Fisher (30:51)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (30:52)

Yes.

Jefferson Fisher (30:52)

And so it takes away the power of their insult. Wow. When you can take all the fun out of it, you take all the oxygen out of their room, and they realize that they're not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

Mel Robbins (31:07)

Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespectful?

Jefferson Fisher (31:10)

A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds that you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. And that makes it very clear. Because what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is the same way with belittling. They're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you, because in that moment, they're feeling something, whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is you're understanding, you're not going to. You're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not going to be on that same level. So somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of that's below my standard for response. And then all of a sudden, they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. That's below my standard of respect. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden, you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me, and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

Mel Robbins (32:25)

What do you do? I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother, and I said to her, you know, like, how did it go? And she said, well, it was fine, but it's my mother. And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant. Like, so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. What do you. Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like, somebody's getting testy at the airport or. And they're with you. It's not a complete stranger. Is there something that you can say to somebody in that situation?

Jefferson Fisher (33:13)

Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it. And you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're going to be person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. This is a terrible time. He was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to, but I was the one that was. Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Being overly. Hey, I understand. Thank you. Making that eye contact with this other person, this other person's not having a good time and then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather.

Mel Robbins (33:54)

How did you do that?

Jefferson Fisher (33:55)

I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of if this is the way you're going to talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Papa, I can't come. And so it very was. What am I saying? You're not being respectful to people. Yes, I am. I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people. And it's just having this, this conversation where they need to. It's the people you love. And often you have to be their. Their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him. And that means I also have to make sure that I need to put. I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct. If this is how you're talking to.

Mel Robbins (34:44)

People, has he changed?

Jefferson Fisher (34:46)

He has. They also just don't go to Walmart.

Mel Robbins (34:49)

Oh, my gosh. Do you have strategies Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

Jefferson Fisher (34:59)

My breath, it is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like when you are feeling threatened, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation. And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. If you breathe well, I say a conversational breath. You take that. Let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're going to have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just. You lose your credibility. You've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got now? It's just, you want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kind of control your breath and your shoulders.

Mel Robbins (36:40)

And shoulders. Like pull them back.

Jefferson Fisher (36:43)

No, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's tension makes you cranky.

Mel Robbins (36:49)

Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table. And using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with.

Jefferson Fisher (37:18)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (37:19)

Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't and who's worth the time and who isn't. What is worth pouring your energy into. And when you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

Jefferson Fisher (37:37)

Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, I can RSVP no. I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. We've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

Mel Robbins (38:15)

Me. That's what I'm realizing.

Jefferson Fisher (38:18)

It's the person who's least like in the know of what's happening in the heart of that. That company versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident, because confidence is Very quiet. Insecurities are very loud.

Mel Robbins (38:35)

That is such an empowering way, Jefferson, to think about being more confident. I just love that. And one of the other things that I love that you talk about is gaslighting. I know it's one of the topics that you discuss a lot online. We get a lot of questions about it and so that's what we're going to dig into after we hear a short word from our sponsors. Do not go anywhere because Jefferson and I are going to lead you through what you need to say and do the next time someone gaslights you. Stay with us.

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Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

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Mel Robbins (40:12)

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I'm here with Jefferson Fisher. Aren't you loving this? I am loving this. So let's dig into a topic, Jefferson, that you get a lot of questions about. And that is how do you handle someone who's gaslighting you?

Jefferson Fisher (40:26)

There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. I see things differently or I remember things differently, period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and trying to challenge your truth. I remember things differently, period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them. I remember things differently. In my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the Laser and you, the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions everywhere. But the truth, to avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. I remember things differently, period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power you feel. Like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it.

Mel Robbins (41:19)

There's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke. They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of a opinion out there and it's so offensive or like that you kind of stop and think. You don't even believe that.

Jefferson Fisher (41:42)

Right.

Mel Robbins (41:43)

Like you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody. Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently.

Jefferson Fisher (41:53)

That's certainly one you could easily say. I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that. It's okay to say, I don't have an opinion, or if I had an opinion, I give it. That's pretty easy. Of. I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure. Finding ways of just being what I like to call the wet blanket.

Mel Robbins (42:10)

The wet blanket, like on a fire.

Jefferson Fisher (42:13)

Exactly.

Mel Robbins (42:13)

Throw a wet blanket on the fire. Because. Because I. There are times where I literally just want to be like, you're a complete idiot. And then I think, why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, and then you grab it.

Jefferson Fisher (42:29)

Exactly.

Mel Robbins (42:30)

And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing, and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

Jefferson Fisher (42:42)

Well, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that.

Mel Robbins (42:45)

I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like you're more powerful and calm. Like, you were such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very just.

Jefferson Fisher (43:02)

I've had that comment.

Mel Robbins (43:04)

You have?

Jefferson Fisher (43:04)

Yeah. That they didn't. They. I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy, so I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury. As long as the jury likes you. They. Yeah, you. You. You're 90 there, Jefferson.

Mel Robbins (43:20)

I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

Jefferson Fisher (43:22)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (43:23)

No, seriously, don't give someone else an enemy.

Jefferson Fisher (43:27)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (43:28)

Like, if you go. And this isn't about, like, being somebody who is soft.

Jefferson Fisher (43:33)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (43:33)

And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy and who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.

Jefferson Fisher (43:51)

I like to call it being in the pocket. What does that mean? Well, in. I'm a musician.

Mel Robbins (43:57)

Oh, really?

Jefferson Fisher (43:57)

Yeah. I play drums. And for real, I play several instruments, but. Yeah.

Mel Robbins (44:02)

I can't imagine you behind a drum set. Did you ever have long hair?

Jefferson Fisher (44:06)

I did, yeah. I had the whole, like. Yeah. I've been in multiple bands. There's a whole thing.

Mel Robbins (44:13)

Oh, wow. Okay, now this is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person that they are.

Jefferson Fisher (44:21)

Exactly. Yeah. Um, and it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head. It sounds great. You're not lagging, you're not loud and forceful. You're not calling attention to yourself. You're just in the pocket. I know. I don't have to do anything crazy. I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the. The peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation.

Mel Robbins (44:51)

Right.

Jefferson Fisher (44:52)

But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, this is a difficult person, it's just a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you. Instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're going to come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. And that's a really empowering thought.

Mel Robbins (45:27)

How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style? Somebody that is always about them? I'm thinking about a number of friends that are divorced and have a ex that they share kids with. And you're getting the long texts and a lot of make wrong. And how do you deal with somebody that is, first of all, never going to change? And second, you have to Figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids or because you work for this person.

Jefferson Fisher (46:08)

There's an initial mindset you need to have and that is know when you're in their game. It's a game of either praise or provoke. If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So know first when you are on the board and you are playing their game.

Mel Robbins (46:38)

Okay?

Jefferson Fisher (46:39)

So number one is you don't have to play that game. Okay, you do that by two, adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid fire Texas change. They text respond the next day. You need to wait. Most people, maybe they need to be reminded there's not some kind of stop clock on text exchanges. You require to respond. There's no delay of game. You get to choose when you respond and you're going to do it when. When you're ready, I will respond to you. When I've calmed down, I'll respond when I'm ready. You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also want to stay neutral and that means you say very boring things like I understand. Noted. Good to know. Got it. These short little things that are going to give them nothing to feed on. Because if you think you're going to solve all your problems in giving them that paragraph of a text and you think you really just gave them a hundred words of pure amazingness that's going to shut them down and change your life, you're kidding yourself. Because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it and not acknowledge anything that you said. So less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

Mel Robbins (48:02)

Wow. How do you broach with somebody who you care about who's like in a bad mood or they're really intense and they're that way a lot because I've tried to and it feels like poking a grizzly. Like are you upset about something? Or you know, like, is there like why? Like.

Jefferson Fisher (48:24)

Well, I don't think there's a better way to approach the Are you thinking about something? It's this idea that whatever they say you need to be a safe space for. Because I always want to be the person that my kids can come to with problems. And if I teach them that when you come to me and you're hurting or you're in a bad mood and you're grumpy, and I don't like that. And I don't accept that. And I don't want that. When you're in trouble, don't come to me. They're just, you're not a safe space for that. They'll go be real somewhere else. I can be grumpy. I mean, I can be in a bad mood. And so often you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, they should be in the safest space of their life to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well, you probably don't want to ask that question, but you might want to say, how are you feeling? But I'd be judged. I'd be careful on the. Assuming that they're feeling a certain way. Now, if we want to tweak this and say, what if somebody sends you something that's rude? Like a rude comment that you read an email and it's rude, the kind of thing that you're like, I can't believe this. Can you believe that somebody would send this, hey, so and so, come here, look at this. You see what they read? Can you believe that? It's the. Did you mean. Did you mean to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound disrespectful? The did you mean is always a great tweak and you can use that as well.

Mel Robbins (49:58)

Did you mean.

Jefferson Fisher (49:59)

Did you mean. Did you mean for that to sound so harsh?

Mel Robbins (50:02)

Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

Jefferson Fisher (50:05)

Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. But it really does help. Anytime you find something that we use this a lot. Did you mean for that to sound short, you get that text? You know, I do that even with my dad because my dad's like the one word texter.

Mel Robbins (50:21)

So pleasant.

Jefferson Fisher (50:21)

Yeah. So I have to say, did you mean for that to sound short? There's some people that you just shouldn't text with or email, just pick them up and call them. There's people that you're like, oh, they send the rudest email. But when you talk on the phone, they're so pleasant. They just know that's not their best mode of communication.

Mel Robbins (50:37)

How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

Jefferson Fisher (50:43)

Can't believe it. There's a sense that goes to who you are and just your philosophy on life. And I believe that, that most people are good, they want to do good. And there are people in this world that are truly hurting and they came in hurting long before they met me. And so there are certain things that I know I could say that could be a trigger for somebody that I know nothing about. And I don't know why it's a trigger. I don't know their childhood. I don't know that one thing that they're insecure about. You ever said something and you said something about their job and all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you think your job's better than mine. What you're hearing is just insecurity. That's what you're hearing. So you have to find the way. My dad would tell me the issue that they're giving you is not the real issue. Meaning there's always something that's layered underneath that. And you just have to be curious enough and patient enough to find out.

Mel Robbins (51:41)

Oh, I love that. What are your parting words?

Jefferson Fisher (51:44)

Hmm. I'm going to tell people that when you, the next time you are in a difficult conversation with people, number one, I want you to say what you have to say with control. It means you're going to control your breath, control your volume, control your body and understand you don't have to say anything that you don't want to say. Two, I want them to say and speak with confidence. It means using an assertive voice that doesn't give over apologies that mean nothing or say I hate to bother you when it means nothing at all. And three, I want them to say things to connect. In other words, say what you mean and mean what you say. If you need to deliver bad news, deliver it. If you need to give a compliment, give it. And at the end of the day, they need to follow their heart and be true.

Mel Robbins (52:29)

Jefferson Fisher, thank you.

Jefferson Fisher (52:31)

Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins (52:33)

You're freaking awesome.

Jefferson Fisher (52:34)

Thanks, Mel.

Mel Robbins (52:35)

I want to make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And what I loved about the conversation today is you were reminded of the truth. You have the power. Stop giving it to other people and to especially people that are difficult. Your power is in your response. It's in your breath, it's in what you say and when you say it. And I know that you now feel empowered based on everything that Jefferson just shared with you today. So please go use it and I'll see you in the next episode.

Jefferson Fisher (53:16)

Let'S say the the best detergent. Okay. I don't know. That's just the first thing that came to mind.

Mel Robbins (53:25)

Has he changed?

Jefferson Fisher (53:26)

He has.

Mel Robbins (53:27)

Wow.

Jefferson Fisher (53:27)

You also just don't go to Walmart. So.

Mel Robbins (53:31)

Now you're making me insecure because I'm sitting there going, I talk too much. I vent my feelings in texts to certain people. Oh, my gosh, I got a lot of work to do. I feel like I need to have all of your little phrases, the Jeffersonisms. I'm going to call them on a card. And I would go through it as part of my morning routine. Now, remember Mel?

Jefferson Fisher (53:53)

Remember Mel? Pause, somebody. Yeah, pause for a second. Let me.

Mel Robbins (53:57)

There's one in here right now. You're freaking awesome.

Jefferson Fisher (54:02)

Thanks, Mo.

Mel Robbins (54:08)

Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher.