Charles Duhigg (8:34)

Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. I have to say, I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm a huge fan of you. And so a chance for us to get to sit down and talk to each other is just such an honor and a joy. Thank you.

Mel Robbins (8:43)

Oh, well, I hope you feel the same after the conversation's over. I'm really excited about the conversation today because you are the person that I think could help us understand a topic that we're seeing in the inbox over and over and over again, which is this idea of feeling like you want to be closer to people that you have fundamental disagreements with and friction. And so I'd love to have you start by telling the person who is listening what could change about their life or their relationships. If they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us and they put it to use in their life, they put it to use with people that they want to be closer to. What could change, Charles?

Charles Duhigg (9:25)

Well, I think a lot of us have anxiety around our relationships, right? We have anxiety around conversations. There's things that we don't want to talk about with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we now know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone. By the end of this episode, my goal is that people will say, I'm not going to be anxious about having that conversation anymore. I know that I can talk to my uncle. I can talk to my husband about that thing that I've been avoiding. I can talk to the guy at work who I disagree with, and we're actually, like, fighting with each other over what the budget should be. I know how to have that conversation in a way that even if we disagree with each other, that we still feel connected to each other, that that conversation becomes a joy for me, really, rather than a Source of anxiety.

Mel Robbins (10:09)

It's a high bar.

Charles Duhigg (10:10)

It is a high bar, but I think we can hit it. I believe in us.

Mel Robbins (10:13)

I'm gonna lean in because I. And I'm gonna actually give you, as you're listening, an invitation. I want you to think about one or two people in your life that you need to have a conversation. Or there's some issue where you're just like, I don't even know who you are anymore. I can't talk to you about this kind of thing. I want you to have them in mind. I can think of two people in my life right now that I'm gonna start the conversation with. One of them is related to what I do in my career, and there's a topic that I don't know how to bring up. And the other one is related to topics inside my family, related to politics, that it's just gotten to the point where we can't even talk to each other. And I don't want it to be that way.

Charles Duhigg (10:54)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (10:54)

And, you know, I should say right off the bat, this is not going to be a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to talk to people where you have issues that you're just at this point where you're like, well, you just have to agree to disagree. And so I want you to think of one or two people in your life that, boy, if I could actually be able to have a conversation with somebody and not have it tear us apart, or if I could have the ability to bring something up that I don't really know how to talk about, that's a really cool thing. And, you know, I gotta ask you, though, why should we learn how to have conversations when they only seem to create more emotion or frustration or distance or heartache with the people that you care about? Especially when you disagree on the issue?

Charles Duhigg (11:44)

Because those conversations are oftentimes the most powerful conversations of our life. If I think about, like, why my wife and I fell in love, it was not because we went on a great vacation together. It was not because we saw a fun movie together. It's because we had conversations where I said something real and meaningful and vulnerable. And she said something that was vulnerable and real, and it changed how I saw the world. That is what brings us together. So I'm not saying that you have to have a conversation with your family about politics. Right. Part of being a good conversationalist is choosing what you want to talk about. And when I get together with my neighbor, he's got a different political sign on his lawn than I have on my lawn. But politics takes up like 2% of our brains, right? What we mostly think about is the pothole hole in the street that we want fixed. So that's what I'm going to talk about, is the pothole. But with those people that you care about, with your parents, with your children, the most important conversations weren't necessarily the easiest conversations, but they're the ones that you remember because they brought you closer together. They helped you understand how this person saw the world, and you helped them understand how you see the world. That is the greatest expression of what being a human is.

Mel Robbins (13:01)

But I take it, based on the research in this book, you're gonna teach us how to do that even when we diabolically disagree with the political sign that is in the neighbor or the parents or the brother in law's yard?

Charles Duhigg (13:15)

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean you have to avoid politics. In fact, you can have a conversation about politics. And if you have the right skills to do so, even if you walk away still disagreeing with each other, you will feel closer to each other. You'll feel more connected. You'll feel like the conversation was a success. This is the thing about conversations. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating makes you fall in love. Conversations are incredibly powerful, but the way that we have them so that they are powerful is that we use skills, skills that we know, skills that we use with our best friends. We use those skills on everyone. We become a super communicator.

Mel Robbins (14:03)

Charles, first of all, I am such a huge fan. You have won the Pulitzer Prize for your reporting and writing. You wrote, in my opinion, the seminal book on the power of habits and research around habits.

Charles Duhigg (14:18)

Thank you.

Mel Robbins (14:19)

And you are such an important mind and writer. And now you have written this book, Super Communicators, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Why the heck did you decide to write this book?

Charles Duhigg (14:32)

So it's a good question for me. This actually started a couple years before I began working on the book with this pattern that I fell into with my wife, which I assume is probably familiar to you, probably to many people listening, which is I would come home from work and I was working at the New York Times at that point, and I would start complaining about my day and talking about, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me, and my cowork workers don't realize what a genius I am. And my wife Very reasonably, would offer me some really good solutions. She would say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other. And instead of being able to hear the good advice she was giving me, I would get even more upset. Right. And I would say, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side. You should be outraged on my behalf. And she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. Does this ever happen to you and your husband? That one. One person wants to discuss an emotional problem, the other person offers sol to it that are not necessarily appreciated?

Mel Robbins (15:27)

It not only happens with my husband, because I'm your wife, I miss, well, let me solve the problem. But it happens all the time with my adult kids where they're sharing about something, and I will either see the other person's side.

Charles Duhigg (15:41)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (15:42)

Which just pisses them off so much. You're not hearing me. Can you just validate me? Which is a helpful cue, but, yeah, I think am the chief offender in my relationships of not actually listening the right way.

Charles Duhigg (15:58)

You're right. It's about listening, but it's also about understanding what's actually happening in that conversation.

Mel Robbins (16:03)

Okay.

Charles Duhigg (16:03)

So after I had this issue with my wife, I went to all these researchers and I asked them, why do I keep making this mistake again and again and again? And they said, well, we're really glad you showed up, because we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication for, like, the first time in human history. Because of advances in neuroscience and neural imaging and data collection, we. We can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation. And what they said is, when you are having a discussion with your kids or I'm having a discussion with my wife, we think we know what that conversation is about. We think we're having a discussion about what happened today or how things are at work. But actually, we are having multiple different kinds of conversations all at the same time. And in general, these different kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

Mel Robbins (16:45)

Okay, so there's three different types of conversations.

Charles Duhigg (16:47)

Three different types of conversations. There's practical conversations, right, where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. I want you to validate me. I want you to tell me that. That it's Going to be okay. Right. The same way that when your kids say to you, mom, I don't want you to solve this problem for me, I just want you to tell me that, like, it's going to turn out all right. That's an emotional conversation. And then finally, the third type of conversation are social conversations.

Mel Robbins (17:17)

What are those?

Charles Duhigg (17:17)

That's about how we relate to each other, how we relate to society, the identities that are important to us. I identify as a mom or a dad or a worker. And what's really fascinating is all three kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate. And in a discussion, we'll probably have all three conversations. But what's important is if you and I are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we can't really hear each other, not completely. And we certainly won't feel connected to each other, which is exactly what happened with me and my wife or you and your kids. Right. I came home, I was having an emotional conversation. Your kids are having an emotional conversation. My wife responds with a practical conversation. She says, here's a solution. But because we're having different kinds of conversations, I can't hear the good advice she's giving me. All I do is I get more upset. And so one of the big skills that super communicators have, the best communicators, is they're aware of these different kinds of conversations, and they're asking themselves, what kind of conversation does this person want to have with me right now? And how do I invite them to have the kind of conversation that's important to me?

Mel Robbins (18:21)

So one of the first takeaways is because I think we can all relate to that feeling of being misunderstood. And that feeling of not being listened to or that feeling of being talked at, is that if you're in that frustrating dynamic with somebody where you come home, you just want to vent, you just want somebody to connect with you emotionally, validate how you're feeling. Because you're letting off steam that when you have a mismatch because your wife's like, oh, well, I don't want you to be sad. Let me problem solve. And then you start to get frustrated, and now you're actually causing tension with the two of you.

Charles Duhigg (18:53)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (18:54)

And both of you are like, well, we're just trying to have a conversation. One of the first skills that you're teaching us is in those moments, ask yourself, what am I actually trying to do here? Am I trying to connect emotionally? Am I trying to handle logistics? And I don't wanna have some deep conversation Cause that's another thing that happens is somebody will be handling deep. Like, they want to just figure out the mechanics for the week. And I want to have a conversation about feelings. And they're like, I don't want to talk about my feelings. Why do you always have to talk? That's so helpful.

Charles Duhigg (19:26)

And you're absolutely right. So the first skill, the first big takeaway is try and figure out what kind of conversation you want to have.

Mel Robbins (19:32)

Gotcha. Right.

Charles Duhigg (19:33)

Am I in an emotional mindset? Am I in a practical mindset? Am I in a social mindset? And next, let me ask you or pay attention to what kind of conversation you want to have.

Mel Robbins (19:43)

And so I don't care about you, though, Charles. Like, I just want. I just want. Like, that's part of the problem is I literally don't care about you.

Charles Duhigg (19:50)

See, I don't know what I'm saying. I don't believe you. I think you do care. Right. That's why we're having the conversations. Because we care about the other person at least a little bit.

Mel Robbins (19:58)

That's true. I guess when you come home. Because we can all relate to that feeling. You've had a really stressful day at work or school. Right. Or a stressful commute home. You walk in the door, you start venting. You just wanna sort of unwind. And then now all of a sudden, you are in a frustrating dynamic with somebody else. And in that moment, I actually don't care. Right. About Chris's. My husband's feelings. Cause now I'm annoyed that I'm not getting what I wanted, which is the emotional release.

Charles Duhigg (20:30)

And so what you can do at that moment is you can just announce, I don't need you to solve this problem for me. I just need a vent. I just want to tell you. Or Chris. Chris can ask you. Chris can say, mel, do you want me to help you solve this problem or do you just need to get this off your chest?

Mel Robbins (20:44)

Yes, that is the best.

Charles Duhigg (20:46)

And it's such a relief when someone asks that. Right. Because sometimes we haven't asked ourself. Sometimes we haven't taken the second to say, like, oh, what do I actually want out of this conversation? And it's really powerful when we give people a chance to do that.

Mel Robbins (21:00)

Okay, so can we set the table on something? Sure. Because I'm now thinking, it makes sense to me. There are logistics. Right. It's all business. Let's just, like, figure this stuff out.

Charles Duhigg (21:08)

Let's figure out where we're going on vacation. What are we having for Dinner.

Mel Robbins (21:11)

Yep.

Charles Duhigg (21:11)

Yep.

Mel Robbins (21:11)

There's emotional. I just need somebody to validate. I need the hug. I need to vent to somebody. And then there's social.

Charles Duhigg (21:18)

Right.

Mel Robbins (21:19)

I don't understand what social conversations are.

Charles Duhigg (21:21)

So social conversations are actually the most frequent conversations we have.

Mel Robbins (21:24)

Okay.

Charles Duhigg (21:25)

And it's a social conversation is when in a conversation you say, you know, the way that I see this as a mom is I see this a little bit differently than you. What you're doing is you're telling me who you are, how you see yourself, or when we're saying, hey, you know, Jim was a little weird in that meeting. Like, what do you think's going on with Jim? Like, why wasn't he enthusiastic about this idea? That's a social conversation.

Mel Robbins (21:47)

And I'm assuming that most of the hot topics, whether it's politics or it's religion or it's issues that we see in the news or opinions about family members, that those are social conversations. Those are social conversations gone way wrong.

Charles Duhigg (22:02)

Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about how to have those conversations a little bit better. And let me clarify for the three kinds of conversations. They all have something different that we're seeking. When you or and I are having a practical conversation, the goal is a solution. When you and I are having an emotional conversation, the goal is empathy. And when you and I are having a social conversation, if we're talking about politics or we're talking about religion or we're talking about society, the goal is simply acknowledgement. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. I don't need you to say, oh, you know, by the way, I was wrong to vote for this person. I should have voted for your guy. What I need you to say is, I need you to say, I hear what you're saying is, this person is important to you. And I might disagree a little bit, but I want to just acknowledge that they are important to you and that they play an important role in your life.

Mel Robbins (22:51)

Now, why would you want to do that if. No, I'm asking this because, again, as you're listening, this is not a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to communicate with people.

Charles Duhigg (23:03)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (23:04)

When you have issues that you do not agree on. I think one of the interesting things about your work, Charles, is that when I was doing an even deeper dive into it, the single biggest criticism of all of the research that you're about to teach us about communicating and connecting with people, the single biggest criticism that people have is, how dare you tell me that I have to acknowledge a point of view that I diabolically oppose. I will not. I cannot do that. You are placated. You're trying to convince me to agree with somebody. People's inability to even do this step of saying without, seeking to understand why somebody believes what they believe. There is no connection. And so I was excited to talk to you because there are people in my life that I value who I have gotten to the point with where I literally, like, I just can't talk to you about this.

Charles Duhigg (24:04)

So let's talk about how to do that.

Mel Robbins (24:06)

And I'm sure they probably feel the same way about me.

Charles Duhigg (24:07)

And you're right. We are living in a more polarized time. There is no research show. The research shows absolutely that people shy away from conversations. But there's a way around this. And let's take you as an example. So. So tell me a little bit about the conversations that you are avoiding with a family member. Like, give me the outlines of it. And we can.

Mel Robbins (24:25)

Yeah, we just have different beliefs when it comes to certain issues. And what happens is if in the past, when I've tried to engage, there's an emotional reaction, there's a yelling, you don't understand. We're not doing that. You're not here. And then there's such a flooding of emotion, or there is almost like a. The words are coming at you, like everything's an attack. And so, like a lot of people, you get to the point where you're just like, I'm just not. It's easier to avoid the conversation, even though I don't want to, because there's this distance between us because we can't actually talk about these things.

Charles Duhigg (25:10)

So let me tell you how to get around that.

Mel Robbins (25:11)

Okay?

Charles Duhigg (25:12)

Because one of the things, and this is the second big skill of the best communicators, is that they ask more questions. In fact, one of the things that we know is that the best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

Mel Robbins (25:25)

10 to 20 times?

Charles Duhigg (25:26)

10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question. What's known within psychology as a deep question?

Mel Robbins (25:31)

Okay, what is a deep question?

Charles Duhigg (25:32)

A deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. So how does this apply to your conversation with a relative? Let's role play it. Is that okay to roleplay? Okay, so. So. So you be. You be the. The angry relative, right? I'll be the. I'll be the one who's trying to break through a little bit. So let's say you think.

Mel Robbins (25:52)

Yes.

Charles Duhigg (25:52)

That Martians are better than people from Venus. I think people from Venus are better than. Than Martians. Right, right. Okay.

Mel Robbins (25:59)

So something ridiculous.

Charles Duhigg (26:00)

Yeah, something ridiculous. So. So, Mel, I saw that there was some interesting news on Mars and Venus the other day. Like, what do you think about that?

Mel Robbins (26:07)

Well, any idiot can see that, you know, the people, the Martians on Venus are way better than ones on Mars. Charles, can you see it on the news?

Charles Duhigg (26:16)

So this is great, right? Because at that moment, what I could do one of two things. The first is I could see this as an attack on my identity, right? This is. We're talking about other people. We're talking about society and how people see others. So it's a social conversation. And I could see this as an. And be like, well, you're. Mel, you're. You're completely wrong. And not only that, but you're dumb. Right? Because like, clearly Mars is better than Venus. Let me give you all the reasons why that's not gonna be a productive conversation. A better thing for me to do is to ask you a deep question. I'm just wondering, Mel, it seems like you really care about this topic. What is it about Mars and Venus that seems so meaningful to you? I'm just curious.

Mel Robbins (26:53)

Well, I just feel like Venus is more kind of how I feel about things. I think Venus is the way to go. Because, I mean, haven't you heard how terrible Mars is and, and how Mars really screwed things up?

Charles Duhigg (27:09)

So let me tell you what I'm about to do. So the first skill that I used is I asked you a deep question. I basically asked you why. Why is this important to you? How do you feel about this topic? The next thing I'm going to do is, after you've answered that question, I'm going to repeat back what I heard you tell me. This is called. This is known as looping for understanding. Okay, so Mel, what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that for you, Venus really represents something admirable. And you've seen people go and they've built a new life on that planet. And you're someone who cares about self improvement and you care about people having agency to make the world a better place. And for you, Venus represents this really, really important virtue. And I totally understand that because that virtue is also really important to me. I see it a little bit in Mars and I think we're a little bit different on that. But I think we actually agree about what space exploration means. Did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

Mel Robbins (28:08)

Yeah, except for the part about Mars. Mars has done everything wrong. And you know, I don't see how they actually say the same thing. Because, you know, the things that I listen to about Venus are saying that Mars actually doesn't believe those things.

Charles Duhigg (28:24)

I appreciate that. And I want to understand how you see the world. I also want to share with you how I see the world because I just think it'll bring us closer together. And look, if we walk away from this conversation and we don't agree about Venus and Mars, that's okay. My goal here is not to convince you you're wrong and I'm right. My goal here is to understand how you see the world and speak in such a way that you can understand how I see the world. And stepping out of the conversation for a minute. The reason why that's so important is because if we understand each other, even if we disagree, even if we walk away and you think that Venus is the best, and I think that Mars is the best, and we think each other are kind of idio for believing anything differently. As long as we have tried to understand each other, we will feel more connected to each other. And that connection is how we build a relationship. That's how we build a friendship. If you think about your best friends, you don't agree all the time with your best friends, but you still love them because you're connected to them.

Mel Robbins (29:23)

Charles, let's hit the pause button. Because I know that at this point in the conversation, the person that's listening right now has a number of people that they're thinking about, and I know that I am too. People that I need to use these tools with, people that I want to connect with, people that I need to have conversations with. I'm going to share this episode with them. And I'm inviting you to take a minute and share this episode with people that you care about. Whether it's because you want to be more connected to them, or maybe they're struggling with somebody in their life that they need to understand these tools. Just take a minute, share this, and don't go anywhere. Charles has so much more to teach us from his New York Times best selling book and all the research he did for the book Super Communicators. We'll be waiting for you after a short break. Let me tell you something. No one wakes up. Fearless confidence is built. One decision at a time. You take a breath, you push yourself a little bit forward every day, and then you wake up and you do it again the next day. That's how growth happens. So if you're ready to take on a challenge, the Defender is too. It's not just a vehicle, it's a statement. The Defender is built for people who push boundaries. Whether you're heading into the wild or sneaking away for the weekend, it's ready for whatever adventure you dream up. This is an icon reimagined, rugged and purpose built on the outside with modern comfort and smart design inside, durable materials, extreme testing and next level tech 3D surround cameras, clear sight views, intuitive displays and driver aids to make even tight parking feel like a breeze. And there's a Defender for every kind of explorer. The Defender 90 is a compact two door powerhouse city ready with serious grit. The Defender 110 balances off road capability with on road comfort and the Defender 130 room for eight and gear to match for the journeys that demand more. Explore the full Defender lineup@land roverusa.com have you ever gotten sick on a very expensive, very non refundable family trip? Amazon One Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are. And with Amazon Pharmacy your meds can get delivered right to your hotel fast. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful. What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? I mean, having good locks, an alarm that makes noise is good. But true security? That feels different. With SimpliSafe you get a system that works to prevent break ins from ever happening in the first place. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in. Well, that's too late. With SimpliSafe's new Active Guard outdoor protection AI powered cameras plus live monitoring agents detect suspicious activity around your property. If someone's lurking, agents call to them in real time, turn on spotlights and can call the police, proactively deterring crime before it starts. It's all about security that is proactive, not reactive. Which is why more than 4 million Americans trust SimpliSafe to protect their home and family. Visit simplisafe.com Mel to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com Mel there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Welcome back, it's your buddy Mel Robbins. Today you and I are spending time with Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times bestselling author Charles Duhig and we are learning the research around how you can be more influential how you can communicate better, how you can stay connected to people in your life even when you cannot understand how they think the way they think. Charles, what I love most about what we're talking about is I'm realizing that all of this not only helps us stay connected, but it helps you be more influential. I love that this is about understanding people, not arguing with them or even necessarily agreeing with them. And so I have a question that I wanted to ask you. Do you think we've gotten to a point, though, where people would rather be right about their beliefs than really try to stay connected to people?

Charles Duhigg (33:40)

I think we live in a society where right now people are telling us that being right is more important than being connected. And we are seeing the wages of that sin. Right. We see it in our politics, we see it in our daily life, we see it in the news. When we prioritize being right over being good neighbors, we can walk down a really dangerous road. And that doesn't mean that we should give up on the things that we believe in. Right? If I believe in something, I believe I'm right and I believe you're wrong. I'm going to work hard to help you see the world the same way that I do. Maybe I'll even convince you that I'm right. But that's not my goal. My goal is to understand you and to let you understand me. Because then we can live alongside each other peacefully. We can build a community and a society together. That's what matters.

Mel Robbins (34:33)

Well, you know, one of the things that I saw over and over in the inbox is people talking about how the current state of the world is tearing their families apart. In fact, I want to read you a question from a listener, Megan. My Democratic kids and nephew believe that my Republican mother and sister and brother in law's views are, quote, unforgivable. They want me to intervene, forget the politics of it. And I believe that's a difficult thing for people to say right now because everything is at a boiling point.

Charles Duhigg (35:07)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (35:08)

And every issue feels like it's the highest stakes. And so it is hard for people to just forget about the politics. That's a very convenient thing to say. Right? Megan writes. So I believe in family first. How do I navigate this mess?

Charles Duhigg (35:24)

Okay, let's talk about the three skills that we just learned. Number one, try and figure out what kind of conversation is happening. Is this a practical conversation, an emotional conversation, or a social conversation?

Mel Robbins (35:34)

Well, how do we know the difference? Cause this is like one of those conversations that I don't want to get in the middle of this, like, cat fight. I don't want to be the family mediator all the time. I don't want to go to that family, like, you know, barbecue.

Charles Duhigg (35:46)

Right, Right.

Mel Robbins (35:46)

Where everybody's simmering and whispering to the people that believe the same thing.

Charles Duhigg (35:50)

So let's talk about the conversation with our kids first. Right. Because we're going to bring them together eventually, but first we're going to talk to the kids. Here's what I would ask. You have said that you think that their opinions are unforgivable. So I want to understand if this is something that really affects you emotionally or if this is just, you think it's the wrong choice for the. For society and we should move in a different direction. It's kind of a practical question. So let me ask you. And this is the second skill. Let me ask you a deep question. There's lots of things that your grandmother does that you probably don't approve of, but this issue seems to really be on your mind. Tell me why. What does this issue mean to you? Why is this important? Because what you're doing at that moment with your kids is you're saying, I'm asking you a deep question. Tell me why this matters to you. What do you need to get out of this conversation that makes you feel like the world is a better place? The person is going to answer in a way that tells me what frame of mind they're in. Okay, if they're an emotional frame of mind, a practical frame of mind, a social frame of mind. They teach teachers how to do this by telling them, if a student comes up and wants to talk to you, you should start the conversation by saying, do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard? So let's say that they were.

Mel Robbins (37:05)

What do you do if they say heard? Because I think if somebody's already using language, it's unforgivable. Like, I don't even know who you are anymore. We can't talk about this stuff. How could you possibly believe that. That there is a deep seated desire that the other person actually changes their point of view. Right? Because without changing your point of view, I believe that you and I cannot connect. Do you see what I mean? Like, that's what that word says to me in Megan's question.

Charles Duhigg (37:38)

So I agree. But let me adjust it a little bit, because I don't think that I necessarily need you to change 100% to how I see the world. I think that I need you to Acknowledge how I see the world and that it's valid. So this brings us to the third skill. So what do we do when we're sitting down and they're saying things that are offensive to me, or they're saying that what they've said is unforgivable. I can't get along with them. We've done the first two skills. We've figured out what kind of conversation we're having. We've asked a deep question. Now we prove that we're listening. Because that thing that you just said, I need you to change your mind, is not actually what most people feel. They think that they need the other person to change their mind, but what they actually need the other person to do is to prove to them that they are listening, that they want to understand. There's a technique for this known as looping, for understanding.

Mel Robbins (38:26)

Okay.

Charles Duhigg (38:26)

Which has three steps. Step one is that you ask a question, preferably a deep question, which we already did. Step two, and we did this before, is that after you answer that question, I repeat back what I heard you say in my own words.

Mel Robbins (38:39)

What was the first question that you asked? It was a deep question again.

Charles Duhigg (38:42)

So the deep question was this seems like it's really bothering you, like, why is this so important to you? Why is what your grandmother says about X, Why does it seem to bother you so much? Just tell me what. What this. What does this mean to you? That's a deep question.

Mel Robbins (38:54)

Got it. Okay.

Charles Duhigg (38:55)

Your kids are going to tell you. Grandma's, you know, old and she's stuck in the past and she doesn't understand the new world.

Mel Robbins (39:03)

I'm devastated because she clearly does not accept me.

Charles Duhigg (39:06)

Yeah. Oh, maybe that's it.

Mel Robbins (39:07)

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I think for a lot of people, there's this sense of, how could you believe that and still see and love me? How could we possibly be connected? If this is a core thing that I believe and you have an opinion that I personally believe is unfair, Absolutely.

Charles Duhigg (39:26)

Maybe we go to different churches. Maybe you don't accept my lifestyle. So I'm going to ask why that's important. And as you're answering that question, I'm going to listen to figure out, are you using emotional words or are you using practical words or using social words?

Mel Robbins (39:39)

I think most people, when you get down to it, probably use very like. Like very emotional, because we are all.

Charles Duhigg (39:46)

Very emotional most of the time. Most of the time, the thing that's interfering is the emotion. I've gotten two of the Skills out of the way. Right. I've asked you a deep question. I know that you're want to have an emotional conversation. You need to have an emotional conversation. Then I'm going to do this looping for understanding where the goal is to prove to you that I'm listening. Mel, what I hear you saying is. I hear you saying that it's really hard to spend time with your grandmother because she believes in a different way of the world working. She thinks that marriage should go this way or that faith should go that way. And I hear you saying that that hurts you because she's your grandmother, because you want to have a relationship with her, and that when she pushes you away, it makes you feel. It makes you feel distant and bad about yourself. Okay? So that's step two of looping for understanding. I've repeated back what I heard you say. Step three is. Now I ask you if I got it right. Mel, did I hear you correctly? Because at that moment, when I ask you if I got it right, what I'm asking you for is permission to acknowledge that I was listening.

Mel Robbins (40:47)

I love that. Did I get that right?

Charles Duhigg (40:48)

Yeah. Did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

Mel Robbins (40:50)

It must be so hard to do, though, when you're having to repeat an opinion or belief that you think is diabolically opposed to yours. Did I get that right?

Charles Duhigg (41:01)

It is. It's hard the first couple times. One of the wonderful things about the human brain and how the human brain has evolved is, if you think about it, communication is our superpower, right? It's the thing that sets us apart from every species. So our brain has evolved to be really, really good at communication. And as a result, when we practice things, we make them into habits very, very quickly. So the first time that I say, you know, Mel, what I hear you saying is that we should kill all puppies on Earth. And that you believe that.

Mel Robbins (41:28)

How could you believe that, Charles?

Charles Duhigg (41:31)

But I hear that it's because you really care about cats. Did I get that correct? Am I hearing you accurately? Once I get into that habit, here's what's going to happen. Once you believe that I am listening to you. Yes, you're going to become more likely to listen to me. Grandma, what I hear you saying is that you don't approve of my lifestyle because you want me to grow up and to be in a stable relationship and to have children and experience that joy, just like you felt. And you're worried that the choices I'm making means I'll never be in a committed am I hearing you correctly? Did I get that? Right at that moment, what I'm doing is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening you. And we can't even fight this. This is hardwired into our neurology. When I prove to you that I've been listening to you, you will automatically become more likely to listen to me in return. It's called social reciprocity. We can't fight it.

Mel Robbins (42:20)

Social reciprocity. And so this is what the science says.

Charles Duhigg (42:24)

This is what the science says.

Mel Robbins (42:25)

And what's interesting about really dissecting this, is that what I felt we'll use the puppy example. Cause it's ridiculous, right? Is that the second you acknowledged that it's because I love cats, the kind of defensive stance that you have when you are opposed to somebody else drops.

Charles Duhigg (42:50)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (42:50)

And the other thing that I'm getting from this is that the grand irony of all of this is that as you were starting to ask the deep question, why does this bother you so much that your grandmother believes this? What I started to hear was, is that why it bothers us is because we don't feel connected to or aligned with the people that we want to be connected, ally with.

Charles Duhigg (43:14)

Is that absolutely at the core of that, why does this bother you so much that your brother in law keeps saying this? The deepest reason is because I want to be close to my brother in law. He's my brother in law. Right. Or I want to come home for Thanksgiving and I don't want to, like, have the entire meal be tense. And I don't want to, like, be waiting for, like the wrong thing to be said. I want to be able to relax about whatever.

Mel Robbins (43:38)

Yes.

Charles Duhigg (43:39)

And so once I acknowledge that, once I. Once you help me by asking me that deep question, once you help me understand what I actually want here is I don't want my brother in law to agree with me. I just want us to be able to live peacefully among each other and feel connected. Then suddenly, all of a sudden, I can say, you know what? Actually, I don't need him to vote for the same guy that I vote for. I just need him to understand that we have a difference of opinion and that's okay. And we're gonna live our lives in different ways. But I'm not judging him and he's not judging me.

Mel Robbins (44:11)

Charles, I just love this conversation and everything that you're sharing with us. And I think it's so important given where we are in the world right now. And I'm also really excited that you're here with us and that you wanted to spend time listening and learning about how you can build this skill around communication and use it to connect with people. Now we're just scratching the surface. Charles and I are gonna continue role playing. We've got a lot more topics to unpack and things to teach you, so don't go anywhere. And if there's somebody that has come to mind, as you've been listening to this, that you wish that you could connect with, share this episode with them. Seriously, sharing this episode and all of Charles's research with them is a great way to open the door to a new way of communicating. And don't go anywhere because we'll be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us. Somehow summer got busy. Very busy. Too many plans, too many pings. Not enough actual summer. Let go of all the to dos. Your summer escape starts with BMW, where pure exhilaration is found on the open road thinking weekend escape. The BMW X3 SUV is sporty, agile, and always down for a should we just go? Kind of trip? Toss your stuff in and hit the road. Need a little more space to overpack in Peace? The BMW X5 plug in hybrid has high revving power, electric adaptability, and room for all the what if we need this extras. And the BMW i4? All electric, super responsive. Feels like you left the noise behind the second you shut the door. Three BMWs all ready to help you skip the chaos and enjoy the drive. The BMW Summer Sales event is on now. Head to BMWUSA.com to check it out. Oh my gosh, are you so happy? Summer break is here and I know the kids are thrilled to hit pause on school, but you're probably wondering, okay, how do I keep their brains from turning into mush? Well, here's the answer. I Excel iexcel is an online learning platform unlike any other. It offers lessons in math, language arts, science, social studies all the way from pre k up through 12th grade. And this isn't just like busy work or repetition. It's personalized, genuinely engaging. And you know what fun the tech is smart. It meets your kid exactly where they are, adapts to how they learn, and helps them move forward at their pace. That's why IXL is trusted by 96 of the top 100 school districts in the United States. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and the Mel Robbins Podcast listeners. That's you can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.commel. visit ixl.commel to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. You know what I love about summer hosting for real friends dropping by for a barbecue or Oakley's pals jumping in the pool. I always want my space to feel fun, easy, pulled together, welcoming. I know you do too. You know who makes that possible? Wayfair. Wayfair is your one stop shopping for outdoor entertaining. Need a grill? Done. Lounge chairs? They got them. I even spotted the cutest patio lights, a cornhole set, floats for a pool. They just scream summer fun. And while I was on the site, I may have fallen down a bit of a home organization rabbit hole because I've been grabbing under the counter organizers, tray dividers, baskets. You know, the things that look really nice on Instagram. Well, now I got them. Thanks to Wayfair. Wayfair's got something for every style, every space. And even if you're short on square footage, they can help you organize it. And the best part is free and easy delivery, even on the big stuff. So go check it out. Wayfair has everything you need to make your space feel like summer shop. Outdoor furniture, grills, long games, and way more for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to explore a huge outdoor selection that's W a Y F a I r Wayfair. Every style, every home. Welcome back. It's your buddy, Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are getting to learn from Charles Duhigg, Pulitzer Prize winning researcher, New York Times bestselling author of three books. We're digging into the fascinating research in his book Super Communicators. And we're learning about the skills and the research that you can tap into in order to have difficult conversations and in order to connect with people, even when you have diabolically opposing points of views about things. So, Charles, the next question that I had is this. You know, everyone says if you're not speaking out about this stuff all the time, then somehow you don't care about the issues. And the truth is, if you understand the research, anytime you're shouting your opinion, people aren't listening to you.

Charles Duhigg (49:10)

In fact, there's study after study shows the more evidence that I give you, the more ingrained your opinion becomes.

Mel Robbins (49:17)

I think this is really important. If you're listening and you think that this is somehow a way to avoid being active in your community or to avoid addressing hard issues, it is so important to understand that the way that we have evolved at this point where we cannot talk about things, where we are so Reactive, where we are so right. And you may be right about your opinion about whatever topic, and you probably are right about your opinion about whatever topic. But if your entire objective is to convince other people that they're wrong, you're actually creating a bigger divide. Absolutely. So ironically, it's not just about staying close and connected to people. If you have any chance in hell of changing somebody's mind about a topic where you are morally opposed, the only chance you have, based on the research, is this what you're telling us, Charles?

Charles Duhigg (50:17)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (50:17)

Is to use these techniques to make the other person feel listened to and understood so that you open up the pathways in their brain to entertain a different point of view.

Charles Duhigg (50:30)

That's exactly right. So here's the key thing that's happening, is that nobody believes anything a hundred percent. Right. No matter what you are. Politics, religion, sports. Nobody says the Mets are the greatest team ever. They will always be the greatest team if you get them in an honest frame of mind. They say, hey, the Mets are pretty good this year, but like two seasons ago they were terrible. Right. And so what we want is we want to get to that softness. We want to get to that moment when I'm willing to say, here's what I believe, but I acknowledge that there are gray areas here. And what I'm asking you is you believe something different, but I want you to acknowledge that there are also gray areas. And in that gray areas we can start to influence each other. The way that we get to those gray areas is by saying, I want to understand what you're saying. I want to understand how you're seeing the world. And I want to speak in a way that you can understand what I'm saying, because there's probably these gray areas that we agree on. So let's start there. That is a much, much more powerful way to change someone's mind than to say, you know what, you're an idiot. You believe that about the Yankees. Like I can't. Do you read? Are you illiterate? That's never gonna change someone's mind.

Mel Robbins (51:42)

Well, and here's the thing I. What I love about this is you can have that opinion and use these tools to A, stay connected to somebody, B, diffuse all the tension and emotion and the righteousness and the name calling. And C, actually use science because you're actually keeping them open minded to hear your side. And so if you have any chance of influencing other people, this is the way you do it.

Charles Duhigg (52:09)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (52:10)

What does the data and the research.

Charles Duhigg (52:12)

Say about arguing there are different ways of arguing.

Mel Robbins (52:17)

Okay.

Charles Duhigg (52:17)

And that can be toxic or can be productive. Oftentimes when we're in an argument, that fight or flight instinct is going. And so my instinct is that I want to control something. Right. It's just a totally natural human instinct that like when I feel threatened, I want to find something to control. And the easiest thing to control is the person across the table from me. Right. So I'm going to try and control you in all kinds of ways. I'm going to tell you what topics we can talk about. I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not going to talk about your mother. Right. I'm going to try and control the timing. I only have five minutes for this conversation. Like after five minutes I'm taking off. I'm going to try and control your emotions. Oh, you're upset about that? You shouldn't be upset about that. That's, that's not something that worthy being upset about. When I try and control you, you feel like I'm taking power from you?

Mel Robbins (53:01)

Yes.

Charles Duhigg (53:02)

So what do I need to do? Because I have this instinct to control, as do you. We need to find things that we can control together. This is what makes an argument, a good argument.

Mel Robbins (53:11)

Okay, give me an example.

Charles Duhigg (53:12)

So first of all, we're going to control, say the, the environment of it. We start fighting at 2 o' clock in the morning about like, you know, and I say, look, this is really important. I, I think we need to work this through. Can we wait until 10 o' clock tomorrow and like both get a good night's sleep and we'll be well rested and had some breakfast? Is it, is that okay? Right now we're controlling the environment together.

Mel Robbins (53:33)

And this is also a tactic you can use if somebody's doing the controlling, arguing with you.

Charles Duhigg (53:37)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Another tactic is that we can control the parameters of the argument. Look, if it's okay, let's talk about where we're going for Thanksgiving. I know that there's some issues with my mom and your mom and there's issues about money. Let's just set those aside for right now if it's okay, and just focus on Thanksgiving. Because we need to make a decision now. We're controlling the boundaries of the argument together. And finally there's some element of trying to control ourselves. If I have an instinct for control, if I use that for self control, then it makes me feel better. Right. If I think to myself, you know, I could really lay into him right now, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna I'm gonna remember what I heard on Mel's podcast. I'm gonna ask a deep question. I'm gonna prove I'm listening. Suddenly we feel better. We feel better about ourselves because we're controlling ourselves. We love exerting self control. It feels good. It feels virtuous.

Mel Robbins (54:30)

Yeah.

Charles Duhigg (54:31)

And so instead of me trying to control you, Mel, you gotta agree with me. We're not gonna talk about that.

Mel Robbins (54:35)

Yes.

Charles Duhigg (54:35)

Instead, what I'm going to do is I'm going to find stuff we can control together. And most importantly, I'm going to say, you know what? I'm the kind of person who can have a conversation like this without using that toxic voice. I'm going to control myself and I'm going to feel good about it.

Mel Robbins (54:47)

Or what my family says to me. Happy to have this conversation with you when you're not this emotional. Okay, you're right, you're right, you're right. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Charles Duhigg (55:00)

Yeah. There's three rules that the research says we should do when we are going to have an argument with someone. And arguments can be really healthy. I'm sure you argue with your husband sometimes, right? I argue with my wife sometimes. We argue with our best friends that arguing is because we care about something and because we want them to understand what we care about. So the argument itself is not necessarily a problem. It's when we have the argument incorrectly that it can become toxic. So here's the three rules. Number one, you and I, okay? Dad got divorced. And I want to talk to him about it. And I know it's going to be a big like beat down argument.

Mel Robbins (55:36)

Oh yeah. Because he's got now got this new person, he has a whole new life. He does not spend time with us. Like the whole thing.

Charles Duhigg (55:41)

Step one. I'm going to start that conversation by acknowledging that this might be uncomfortable. I'm going to say to you, dad, I want to talk to you about something. And let me just say at the outset, I don't think this is going to necessarily be an easy conversation. And I don't. I think that we're gonna disagree with each other. But I want you to know that my relationship with you is important enough that I wanna have this conversation and I wanna understand why you're making the choices you're making. And I want you to understand how I see them. But it might be a little uncomfortable, it might be a little awkward, but that's okay. Cause it's important enough to me to have the conversation.

Mel Robbins (56:15)

Why Would you tell them it's gonna be a hard conversation? Cause as you're saying that to me and I'm thinking about being the dad, I'm like, I don't want to have a hard conversation with you. I'd rather just not talk about this and pretend everything's okay. You see what I'm saying? Why does this work? Based on the research.

Charles Duhigg (56:30)

What the research tells us is that when I acknowledge the discomfort, it starts to lessen it, right? All of a sudden, imagine if you're talking to someone and you say, hey, look, I gotta give you some bad news, right? And then you give them bad news. That doesn't mean that the bad news is any less bad, but it actually means that it's easier to hear because someone's prepared for it.

Mel Robbins (56:49)

It.

Charles Duhigg (56:50)

The thing that makes us avoid conversations is anxiety about the unknown. I'm going to bring up this issue with Mel, and I don't know how she's going to respond. I'm going to talk to my dad about his new girlfriend, and I don't know if he's going to fly off the handle or if he's going to tell me all these intimate details. I don't want to know about my dad, right? So the way that I make that conversation easier is I start it by saying, this might be awkward, but then I do the second step, okay? Which is I announce my goal for this conversation and I ask you what your goal is.

Mel Robbins (57:22)

Okay?

Charles Duhigg (57:22)

And I'm going to tell you what I want out of this conversation, and I'm going to ask you what you want out of this conversation. And the reason why that's really important is because it helps us stay focused on what matters and not get distracted by all the fights we could have. And oftentimes that goal that I'm saying is a goal that we share, right? If I say to you, dad, I want to talk about this, I know it's going to be awkward. But our relationship is so important to me that I want to understand, and I want you to understand how I see the world. What I'm saying is my goal here is to preserve our relationship.

Mel Robbins (57:53)

So let's take the example of dad and mom get divorced, dad now has brand new girlfriend, whole new lease on life. The girlfriend is moseying in. You don't even recognize your father. You're mad about the way the girlfriend's taking control of everything. How do you start that conversation with your father?

Charles Duhigg (58:12)

So, Dad, I want to talk to you about something that's been bothering me for A little while. And this might be a little bit of an awkward conversation, and I just want to acknowledge that and say it's okay, because what's most important to me.

Mel Robbins (58:23)

Is this about Cindy.

Charles Duhigg (58:26)

Yes, it's about Cindy, but it's actually about you and me. Like, I want. Our relationship is so important to me. I want to figure out. I want to understand what's going on in your life, but I also want you to understand how I see the world, because my goal here is that I really. You're my dad. Like, I want. I want this relationship to be as strong as it. As it was before. Before the divorce. And let me ask you, before we get into it, if we're going to talk about Cindy. What. What do you want? Like, what do you want me to carry away? What do you. What's important to you that it. That I understand about your relationship with Cindy?

Mel Robbins (59:01)

Well, I want you guys to stop attacking her, and I want you to stop judging me, and I want you to let me live my life.

Charles Duhigg (59:07)

Perfect. So now we know our goals, right? My goal is.

Mel Robbins (59:10)

Did you hear how my, like.

Charles Duhigg (59:11)

Absolutely, absolutely. You're getting riled up. And that's okay. That's natural, because I already said we might get. This might be a little bit awkward. I've given you permission. The fact that you're getting riled up, that I'm getting riled up, that doesn't mean the conversation's a failure. That means that the conversation's operating the way it's supposed to be. And I already said it might be a hard conversation, but do you say.

Mel Robbins (59:31)

Anything about the emotion or. Of course.

Charles Duhigg (59:33)

Of course. And at that moment, I. I'm going to say, look what I hear you saying. I'm going to do this looping for understanding. Look, what I hear you saying is I hear you saying that you want me and Cindy to get along with each other, and that. That's. That's really important to you. Am I getting that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

Mel Robbins (59:50)

Yes. And I'd like you guys to stop judging her. Like, she's really come in, and I'm much happier, and, you know, she's helping me do a bunch of things. And, you know, you guys are all just kind of, like, not accepting.

Charles Duhigg (60:00)

What I hear you saying is that you're offended. You're offended by how we're treating your girlfriend, that you think that we're treating her like she's not a member of this family. And you believe that she is a member of this family. You care about her.

Mel Robbins (60:11)

Exactly.

Charles Duhigg (60:12)

Okay, so I hear that. Now. Let me tell you from my perspective, why I might have come across that way. My model for what a marriage should be was you and mom. And when you guys got divorced, it kind of rocked my world. It made me question everything. And then for Cindy to come in like a replacement, it makes me worry that someday I'll be married and my husband might divorce me and he'll replace me without any problem. I think for me, Cindy, she's not just your girlfriend, she's someone who's trying to be my mom. And I don't want that. I already have a mom.

Mel Robbins (60:48)

As you started to acknowledge. And then you even did this thing where you said, I can understand how she would feel that way and I'll acknowledge my part. I literally felt myself, even though we were role playing, just start to drop the shoulders.

Charles Duhigg (61:05)

Yeah. What the research tells us is that if I acknowledge that what you're saying, that I see the validity in it. If I acknowledge that I'm listening to you, if I try and prove to you that I'm listening to you, your fight or flight instincts will decrease. And once those fight or flight instincts decrease, you can start using the prefrontal cortex, the powerful part of your brain that doesn't respond emotionally to everything, but thinks things through a little bit logically. It combines emotion and logic. So you asked, do I need to mention that this is an emotional conversation? If I'm talking to my dad and I say, dad, you seem really emotional about this, that's not gonna go over well. Right? There's no dad who wants his child saying, you seem really emotional. But I can say the equivalent thing by saying what I hear you saying is that you're really offended by how we're treating Cindy and that that that hurts you and it hurts her. What I've just said is, I've just said this sounds like it's an emotional conversation. We need to talk about the emotions, but without using the word emotions, which might turn you off.

Mel Robbins (62:06)

So I want to understand the difference between seeking to understand and connect on topics where we have a violent disagreement in terms of our opinions and our feelings about things versus agreeing with that opinion. Using these tools to connect and seek an understanding versus agreeing with that opinion.

Charles Duhigg (62:40)

So here's. Here's the two things to keep in your mind.

Mel Robbins (62:43)

Okay?

Charles Duhigg (62:43)

Number one is you don't have to have any conversation you don't want to have. If you and your brother in law disagree about the Mets versus the Yankees and it gets really, really tense. Don't bring up the Mets and the Yankees. Like there's so much other stuff that you have in common with your brother in law. There's so many other things you can talk about. You never have to have a conversation that you don't want to have. That's the first thing.

Mel Robbins (63:08)

So is there a way to also say to somebody, I don't want to talk politics with you? Yeah, because we can't do it in a way that's constructive.

Charles Duhigg (63:15)

Absolutely. You say exactly that. You say that, you say that, you say, you say, look, I know that we're voting for different people. There's other stuff I want to ask you about. Like I don't want to talk about politics because we're just going to get bogged down in disagreeing with each other. Is it okay if we talk about what's on TV or what we should do for Thanksgiving? Right. But now let's say you're in a situation, it's your dad and he's got a new girlfriend, where you don't feel like you can avoid the topic. It's a conversation you have to have.

Mel Robbins (63:40)

Okay.

Charles Duhigg (63:41)

At that moment, the thing to recognize is there is absolutely no way that I am going to change your mind by telling you you are wrong. In fact, there's study after study shows the more evidence that I give you, the more ingrained your opinion becomes. There's actually a chapter in the book about bringing together people who were gun control advocates and gun rights enthusiasts. What they found is if you use these three steps, right, you ask deep questions, you prove that you're listening, you try and figure out is this an emotional conversation or practical or a social conversation. When people were taught how to use those skills, what they found is that even people who completely disagreed with each other, who continued disagreeing with each other on the guns issue, they found all these other things that they had in common, right? Oh, you want to take guns, you want to take guns away because you're worried about your kids? I actually want to give have guns in society because I think it keeps my kids safe.

Mel Robbins (64:37)

So you're both worried about kids?

Charles Duhigg (64:38)

We both are worried about kids. We both, and we might, we disagree about the path to helping our kids out, but we have the same goal. The same goal is that we both want to create a better world for our children where they're safe. And by the way, this thing that we have in common, now that I know that we're on the same side of the table for what the end goal is, and now that I know that you're listening to me, I'm going to listen to you when you say, you know what? I see what you're saying about like, making sure that, you know, guns are available for hunting so that we can go with our families, we can have these special moments. Your, your sons learn and your daughters learn, you know, hunting techniques. From my perspective, because I don't hunt, I'm worried about kids bringing guns into school. That gun rights enthusiast, he's going to say, yeah, yeah, no, I don't, I don't want guns in schools either. The guns don't belong in schools. That's not responsible. So suddenly now we're in that gray area. We found something that we both agree on. So that does not mean that all of a sudden you're in favor of gun control and that I'm in favor of everyone else having a weapon. We haven't changed our minds. We can still take principled stands, but we can also find that gray area. We can find that place where we both have questions. We both wonder, am I right? Am I wrong? And as we work on those questions together, we become a team. And we walk away disagreeing, but we also walk away feeling connected.

Mel Robbins (65:55)

I am glad that we're having this conversation because I personally believe when I think about my own family, we are like probably everybody else's family. A massive diverse spectrum of opinions. But if we all get together and people aren't drinking too much or too emotional, we kind of agree on 80% of things.

Charles Duhigg (66:17)

Yeah. And the truth of the matter is it's still true. Except that now there's so many pressures to make us ignore that 80% and to focus on the 20%.

Mel Robbins (66:27)

Yes. And it feels like everything's been hijacked by headlines and bots and people screaming into microphones and we have forgotten how much we have in common.

Charles Duhigg (66:37)

Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (66:38)

And how reasonable most people are when they feel listened to and when you can find this common thing to work on together. And what I love that you're giving us is if you want to be closer to your dad, if you want to stay connected to your grandmother, if you want. And again, I say want because you get to choose. If your sister in law has a point of view about an issue that makes you feel that she has rejected who you are as a person or who you love, you do not have to have a relationship with her.

Charles Duhigg (67:17)

She's never gonna approve of me and I'm never gonna approve of her. And that's okay.

Mel Robbins (67:20)

That's okay. But at least I've used the tools. I Don't have to be emotional or offended by it. You have shown me exactly who you are. Let her. And I am gonna let me spend my time and energy putting it into relationships with people who literally are wanting to connect, are wanting to see each other's point of view, are wanting to be thinking about things and problem solving and be more reasonable instead of so inflammatory and emotional and righteous about their opinions.

Charles Duhigg (67:51)

You never have to have a conversation you don't want to have.

Mel Robbins (67:55)

You know, Charles, a lot of listeners wrote in with questions about how do you talk to people in your life about the smaller stuff. You know, we got the dog cause you wanted the dog, but now I'm taking care of the dog.

Charles Duhigg (68:06)

Right.

Mel Robbins (68:06)

You don't pick up after yourself. I'm on a zoom call. You're talking loudly in the background. Like, how do you use these tools to bring up the small things that actually start to become really irritating?

Charles Duhigg (68:19)

Yeah. So I think the first thing to do is to help the other person understand if this is a small thing or a big thing. Right. So you never walk the dog. That seems like a small thing, but to me, that actually means that you see my time as less valuable than your time. Right. This isn't actually a practical question about who should walk the dog. This is an emotional question that I feel like it's disrespectful to just assume that I'm going to walk the dog. Dog. When it's your dog. Now suddenly we're talking about something that's real, but it's probably not just about the dog. This is probably something that exists in many parts of our relationship, and now we're getting it on the table and we're fleshing it out. If there's something that bothers you and you say, oh, it's such a small thing, if it was a small thing, it wouldn't bother you that much. Right?

Mel Robbins (69:04)

Good point.

Charles Duhigg (69:04)

Yeah. How my wife turns on her turn signal is a really small thing. It really doesn't bother me that much. She does it differently than me. She turns on the turn signal a lot earlier than I do, but it's not a big deal. It doesn't really bother me. On the other hand, if there is something that is bothering me, it's not a small thing. The thing I'm focused on might be small, but there's an underlying reason under the reason that I have to get onto the table, and that means I have to have a conversation with myself. Sometimes I have to sit down and I have to say, why is this bothering Me so much. What's really going on here? How do I explain this to my husband? And why it bugs me so much that I have to walk the dog? Which doesn't seem like a big deal. That's what relationships are.

Mel Robbins (69:47)

It's so good because every time Chris and I have one of those small things that starts to simmer, it's the same thing underneath. Like, you don't value my time, or you think my job is to clean up after you and do all this stuff.

Charles Duhigg (70:00)

That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins (70:01)

And I assume you don't want me to feel that way. So how can we get on the same page here about this?

Charles Duhigg (70:08)

And it might very well be that Chris says, oh, I do value your time. I didn't even realize that you were seeing this issue about dog walking in this broader context. Like, now that I understand what the dog walking represents to you, I'll walk the dog.

Mel Robbins (70:24)

This is legit an issue in my marriage. And by the way, I'm the bad one. Chris is the one who didn't want another dog. He's the one who's taking care of them. And I know that this is an issue. And because I wanna stay connected and because we've had a conversation about it, and I know the deeper issue is about feeling valued, that I make more of an expert. Because it doesn't matter that much to me who's doing what.

Charles Duhigg (70:48)

Exactly.

Mel Robbins (70:49)

But that's why it always falls to Chris.

Charles Duhigg (70:51)

But it matters a lot to him. Cause it represents something. And simply having that conversation diffuses the tension from it.

Mel Robbins (70:58)

Oh, it's so true. Charles, I'm curious. What's one conversation you need to have right now that you're not having? And I'm gonna invite you, as you're listening and spending time with Charles and I, to answer that for yourself too. One conversation you need to have right now that you're not having.

Charles Duhigg (71:14)

So I'll answer that in two ways, if it's okay.

Mel Robbins (71:16)

Yeah.

Charles Duhigg (71:16)

The first is, my dad passed away about seven years ago. And anyone who's lost a parent knows what happens afterwards, which is you go to the funeral and then you come back to work, and people say, oh, where were you next last week? And you say, oh, my dad passed away. And they say, my condolences, I'm so sorry. And then they go on to something else. And in that moment when that happened to me, after I came back to New York from the funeral, that was in New Mexico, where I grew up, if somebody had said to me, oh, I'm so sorry. What was your dad like? Like, tell me about him. I would have loved that. Right. Because it's all I'd been thinking about for the last three weeks is who my dad was and what my relationship was to him. It's. It was the most biggest thing in my mind. What, what the funeral was like, what the. How the. How the eulogies made me feel. For someone just to ask that question would have been so powerful. And so one of the conversations that I don't have enough that I need to have is that when somebody expresses what they're feeling, if. When somebody expresses a vulnerability, when someone tells you that something's going on in their life and we shy away from it because we don't want to say the wrong thing, or we're worried that it's going to be awkward, or we don't know what we'll say next, we should lean into that conversation and all we have to do is just ask a question. What was your dad like? Tell me about him. That's the first kind of conversation that I need to have more of. And the second kind of conversation is I need to have more conversations with myself. We think about conversations as something that happen with other people. But some of the most important conversations, some of the prerequisites to having those really powerful conversations we talked about is having a conversation with myself to understand what I want, what I need, what my goal in talking to my dad or to my dad's girlfriend, what my goal actually is. Because oftentimes we just plow into them without thinking about ahead of time. But if we stop and we think, I want to have a conversation with myself about why this bothers me so much, that's when suddenly we can connect with anyone and we can do anything.

Mel Robbins (73:33)

What an answer. No, seriously.

Charles Duhigg (73:36)

Thank you.

Mel Robbins (73:37)

Absolutely beautiful and life changing. What are your parting words?

Charles Duhigg (73:44)

You know, when I started writing this book, I thought that the best communicators, super communicators, that they were people who had been born with something special, right? They had the gift of the gab, or they were extroverts, or they were really confident. And what I've learned through the research is that that's not true at all. In fact, if you talk to the best conversationalists, the best communicators, what they'll tell you inevitably is that there was a time when they were terrible at it. They'll say things like, I had real trouble making friends in high school. I had to study how kids talk to each other. My parents got divorced when I was young. And I had to be the peacemaker between them. The most important idea that I've learned is that anyone can become a super communicator. Anyone can be great at communicating. Anyone can connect with anyone else. The key is you simply need to want to and to practice the skills to make it happen. And if you do that, your brain will make them into habits and you will be able to connect with anyone that you want to.

Mel Robbins (74:44)

You are such a gift. Charles Duhig. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for teaching us everything that you taught us today. Thank you for sharing all this research. I can think of three conversations I need to have. I am sending this episode to everybody in my contact list because I do believe with my whole heart that everything that you just taught us today and shared with us will help us connect with people, will help us bridge the divide, will help us influence the way that people think about topics where we disagree. And for that, I will be forever grateful.

Charles Duhigg (75:27)

Thank you so much. And thank you for everything you do. This has been such a treat for me.

Mel Robbins (75:30)

Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this conversation, to really lean into. Thank you for sharing it with people that you care about. This is the perfect thing to share with somebody that you need to have a conversation with. And in case nobody else tells you, I also wanted to say I love you. I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life and everything that you learn today and the skills that you can build and the tools that you can use out of this research. And this conversation will absolutely help you do that, because staying connected to people that you care about is part of creating a better life. Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. All right, you ready? Here we go. All right. Oh. Got it. Okay. Great, great, great.

Charles Duhigg (76:23)

This is a great space.

Mel Robbins (76:25)

Thank you.

Charles Duhigg (76:25)

Did you guys build this with.

Mel Robbins (76:28)

This is like a home renovation project. I literally. We had no idea what we were doing, but we'll do it in CAD next time. So we're getting there. Because I'm loud.

Charles Duhigg (76:40)

That's why you are so good at this. This is like. Like, you're. I. You're amazing. It's really, like, the fact that you, like, were able to vocalize, like, that's so power. Like, as a listener, that's so powerful to, like, hear this friend. You're wonderful. This is. This is. This was so much fun.

Mel Robbins (76:59)

Oh, well, you. Thank. Thank you.

Charles Duhigg (77:00)

I feel like I learn a lot.

Mel Robbins (77:01)

By a ton of people. Watching you is very.

Charles Duhigg (77:04)

I feel like I learn a lot just by watching you do this.

Mel Robbins (77:07)

We good? Okay.

Charles Duhigg (77:08)

Oh, good. Good. Fantastic.

Mel Robbins (77:13)

Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

Charles Duhigg (77:48)

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Mel Robbins (77:57)

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Charles Duhigg (78:02)

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Mel Robbins (78:07)

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