Mel Robbins (3:36)

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And the process of not only learning about the Let Them Theory and writing this book together, it has healed our relationship. And this is going to be one of those conversations that I know is going to be deeply personal. You're going to see yourself in everything that we're talking about and you're going to leave not only with a deeper understanding of the Let Them theory, which is this mindset tool that I discovered, I don't know, about two years ago that really helps you understand what's in your control and what's not in your control. And it helps you to focus on what you are in control of, which is what you think, say or do and to just let other people be. Let them live their lives, let them have their opinions and really focus on your response. And a funny thing happens when you start to implement the let them theory in your life, when you start to say let them, and you let people be themselves, you create space for change and transformation. Like, it's kind of crazy. The more you stop trying to control everybody else, the more control you gain. The more you let other people be themselves, the better your relationships become. And what I'm going to do today with you is I'm inviting you to sit down with me and my daughter and we're going to unpack our mother daughter relationship. And I promise you, you're gonna see yourself, you're gonna see yourself with your siblings, you may see yourself with your parents, you may see yourself with your adult kids. You will definitely see yourself with your significant other, whether you're married or dating or whatever. Because the ultimate topic that we're talking about truly, is that in most relationships, there's this invisible distance between you and another person. It's sort of this space that gets created over time with the people that you've known the longest, or the people that you love the most, or the people that you're related to. And it's this distance that gets created. It's like death by a thousand cuts. The small things that you try to let go, the passive aggressive comments, the things that you feel kind of resentful or upset about that maybe happened in the past that you'd never quite gotten over. It's not even that the relationship's horrible. Maybe it's that you really wish you were closer to your siblings, but there's just something there that you can't explain that makes it feel impossible to just feel closer. Or maybe you wish there was just less drama and friction with your adult kids or with your parents or with their significant other, that there are times where it's fun, you really think things are okay, but you just can't quite get closer and have it be better all the time. And so, in the process of working on the Let Them Theory book over the last year and using the let them theory, my daughter and I, truly, deeply, authentically, for real, erased the distance and really became close in a way that we both really wanted to, but never knew how. And so I invite you to pull up a seat and to join me and my daughter, Sawyer. And before we jump in, I just wanna take a moment, too and welcome you if you're brand new. Because if you're listening to this episode as the first episode that you're listening to of the Mel Robbins podcast, it tells me something about you. First of all, either somebody that really loves you and wants to either be closer to you or wants you to be closer to people in your life. Sent this to you, which means you have people around you that deeply care about you. And they wanted you to listen to this because they know that this conversation is going to help you improve your life and your relationships. And it will. The second thing it tells me is that you actually care about your relationships because you saw this episode and you hit play. And so my daughter and I are sitting down and we are going to unpack the lessons that we've learned the hard way. So hopefully we can save you the headache and heartache and upset and distance that we created in our relationship as mom and daughter. And you can learn from our mistakes and you can learn from the things that we learned this year as we used the let them theory and as we wrote about it and researched it. And there's one thing I know for sure. You will never look at relationships the same again. After joining me and my daughter, Sawyer. And with that, I just said your name. Very weird. Sawyer. I don't know why I said it weird like that, but Sawyer. Sawyer. Sawyer. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thanks for sitting down with me.

Sawyer Robbins (9:55)

Thanks, Mom.

Mel Robbins (9:55)

And so I guess where we should start is we're gonna tell you a little bit about our relationship prior to the past year where we've had this experience of working together on this project of writing and then releasing the Let Them theory book. And it all happened by accident. None of this happened on purpose. And that's another really important thing. That at any moment you can change the way your relationship feels. And as Sawyer and I are sharing with you our experiences and what our relationship used to feel like, I'm just gonna ask you to be thinking about the people in your life, whether it's a sister or brother, or it's an in law, or it's a colleague at work or it's a friend that I don't know. It's like the way that I would describe our relations. Then I'm going to just throw it over to you almost like a professional roasting Sawyer. Is that I desperately wanted to be closer to you, but I didn't know how to be. Your turn.

Sawyer Robbins (11:10)

That's it. Okay. Good setup. I think I always wanted to be. I knew I always wanted to be closer with you. And I think if I think back to before working together, our relationship, it wasn't horrible. I do have to preface. It was not horrible, but I don't think it was great.

Mel Robbins (11:33)

I want to dig in Here, because I would put our relationship. Sawyer, you're 25. You're the oldest of three. I'm 56. Compared to a lot of people's relationships, our relationship is great. We talk a lot. We respond to each other's texts. We love seeing each other. But there was something underneath the surface that made it not so great. And what was that for you? And please just let me have it. Don't worry about my feelings. Just the more you can explain your experience as the daughter, I think the more powerful this conversation is gonna be for the person that is here with us right now.

Sawyer Robbins (12:20)

So everything that I'm about to say, I think was very unintentional on your part. But I think after a lot of therapy and just reflecting on myself, and I think especially working with. With you, I've recognized this since. But before growing up, I always thought it was intentional. And so I think a huge thing is the fact that you were never home and you were always on the road. And then when you came home, all you did was talk about work. And I think that from my perspective as your kid, all I wanted you to do when you came home was, like, come to my games and prioritize me and give me attention. And it just felt like it wasn't there unless we were asking you about your work. And I think on a separate note, my sister Kendall, she is younger than me by 18 months. She is a phenomenal singer, and she is pursuing a career out in la, and she grew up as a performer, and she grew up in the spotlight. And I think she is on the same track as you in being in the spotlight and being out in the world and people recognizing you, which is unbelievable. But I think I saw the both of you always relating on that and feeling very jealous that I didn't have a natural talent that I could deliver that would connect me to the two of you. So I always saw you guys as on the other side of the room and her getting all the praise for all the singing, which she deserves and is amazing. But at the same time, I was just like, oh, I can't relate to my mom or my sister. Like, I'm different. I don't have a natural ability. Every time I'm addressed, it's, oh, you're Kendall's sister. Oh, are you the singer? Or are you Mel Robbins daughter? That's awesome. It's never like, oh, you're Sawyer. It's so nice to meet you. And so it was always I was a product of you or Kendall. And I think that that really made me, I think, just resent you, honestly. And so instead of being really celebratory of your work and how much you worked and just you as a person, I think I saw it as all these fans, all these people out there who love my mom are taking my mom away from me. And so therefore, I'm not annoyed at all them. I'm annoyed at her.

Mel Robbins (15:23)

If you go back in time, though, and if you could explain even how this dynamic was in place before, the level of kind of recognition that this podcast has brought, because it's a whole. In my experience, it's a whole different ballgame in the past two years than it was when we lived in Sherburne. And so could you share a little bit about your experience? Even in middle school and high school?

Sawyer Robbins (15:58)

In high school and in middle school, you were on the road upwards of 200 days in the year. And I think as you were gone, I. I felt myself growing closer to dad and growing closer to Kendall and Oakley, because we were always together. And then when you would come home, it felt like I. I think it was a story I was telling myself, but it felt in my eyes like you either were talking about work or you were talking about Kendall. And how are we going to grow Kendall's singing career and how are we going to do this and all of the plays and all this stuff, which is unbelievable. But I think that that was really my impression is she's a workaholic, which she still is, but I have more of an appreciation for it now. And the fact that I just had this story in my head that it was like all I wanted was your attention, and I felt like it was going everywhere but me, I think it was.

Mel Robbins (17:13)

It definitely was. And I'm sorry.

Sawyer Robbins (17:18)

That's okay.

Mel Robbins (17:21)

It's not okay.

Sawyer Robbins (17:22)

I forgive you.

Mel Robbins (17:23)

Well, I think every working parent, especially those of us that have a job that requires travel, kind of has that, like, in your heart, because there are times in your life where, just out of necessity, you gotta be on the road because that's what your job demands. And I guess I was lucky enough that dad was home full time. But I do agree with you that I was consumed with work because I was so scared about the amount of debt we were in and just the relentless pressure I felt for almost a decade to be able to replace all the money that we had lost in the business and to get out of credit card debt and to be able to pay for college and do some of the things that I wanted to do. And you're Right. Like too many people, I spent too many years working and chasing the next thing because of the debt we were in, and I missed out on a lot. And so I can see why your experience was that I was always gone, and when I was home, I was talking about work or I was getting ready to leave on the next trip, or Kendall, who is definitely way more emotional than you are, at least outwardly, was getting a lot of the attention. And I think this happens a lot with the oldest kid, that you kind of assume the role of responsibility, and you became very stoic. And as much as I was trying to reach you, I didn't worry about you as much because you didn't emote as much. And that's not your problem. As the parent, it's my responsibility to know who you are and to find ways to really reach you, but I didn't know how. It almost felt like, especially in high school, that you were pissed off at me and that you had crossed your arms and you were standing off on the side and that you were like, you're not gonna get to me. You don't get access to me. Is that true?

Sawyer Robbins (19:45)

I think looking back, I pouted a.

Mel Robbins (19:48)

Little bit, for sure.

Sawyer Robbins (19:52)

But it was, I think, definitely a little emotionally immature. Acting like an eight year old would. She'll learn in the let them theory book. I think another thing with families that happens a lot is I naturally am a lot more similar to dad, and Kendall is a lot more similar to you. And I think Oakley is like a beautiful combination of you both.

Mel Robbins (20:14)

It's not like something horrible happened.

Sawyer Robbins (20:17)

No, not at all.

Mel Robbins (20:18)

This. I think most relationships have this, like, invisible distance, and you can feel it, and you can't quite understand why it's there. And if it's with somebody that you deeply love and that you have cared about for a long time, that distance and that sort of resentment that starts to build up is death by a thousand cuts. That's what it is. It's over and over and over again. Somebody feeling like they don't matter to you. And you know, honestly, when you're the parent, Sawyer, it's your responsibility to make sure that your children know that you matter to them. It's not your responsibility as the child to make me know that I matter to you. It's my responsibility as the parent to provide that to you, just like it's my responsibility to provide you with food and water and shelter. Me showing up in a way that makes you feel seen me showing up in a way that makes you feel like You're a priority. Me showing up in a way where I'm actually emotionally calm and I'm not tantruming or taking my stress out on all of you, that was something I didn't do. And so I did not provide you with what you needed. I fully own that.

Sawyer Robbins (21:50)

I appreciate you saying that. Love you. And I also want to say, though, that I think there was a lot of times in our relationship where you really did try, like, you actively were constantly trying to break the barrier between our relationship.

Mel Robbins (22:09)

What were some of the things that I tried to do? Because I know what I tried to do.

Sawyer Robbins (22:12)

Well, first of all, you tried to. Let's go to the mall. Sawyer. Let's buy you a few things so you don't dislike me. Which I think for those of you whose love language is gifting, I think it worked in the moment. And then the next day, something would happen that would reconfirm this story. I was telling myself that she doesn't care about me. And then it was back to this force field between us. And that's what I was going to say is that I think there was things that happened over time that raised the force field, and then everything after that just reconfirmed it and made me feel like I was always already listening for that message versus I completely shut out the you matter. Here's your gifts. Here's that. The other. Like, I'm showing up to your game. I already had decided in my mind that this is the story I'm gonna tell myself, which is my mom doesn't care about me, and I am going to go pout in the corner so she comes closer and closer to me, versus trying to approach you in another way. And I think what didn't help that is that outside of the house and outside of our family, every single second, it was getting reconfirmed by strangers and by my friends, which is, oh, you're Kendall's sister. Oh, my God, Kendall's. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, my gosh, you're Mel Robbins daughter. I love her so much. Like, can you give me your number so I can get to her? Like, give me your email so I can get to her. It was always like, how can I use Sawyer to get to Kendall or Mom? And so I think that. That it was in the house, I was telling myself this, but also outside, it was kind of like other people were reconfirming that for me. And so it made the force field, like, indestructible.

Mel Robbins (24:10)

I think that that's a very common experience, even when Someone in your family doesn't have a public facing career. Like if you're the person in your family that's the middle child in a big family, or you're the youngest in a big family, you feel invisible and you show up at school and you're Joey's little brother or oh, here we go, we've got another one of the Mitchells or here comes another Jones through the school that you start to feel invisible in the kind of reputation of the family or what your siblings did ahead of you. So I think that that's a very common thing. So would you say that once you decided, my mom doesn't care about me, it was gonna be very difficult for me to somehow shatter that force field that you put up?

Sawyer Robbins (25:01)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (25:03)

Why do you say that?

Sawyer Robbins (25:06)

I think it wouldn't be until I showed up differently that our relationship would get better.

Mel Robbins (25:15)

Really?

Sawyer Robbins (25:17)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (25:18)

I'd like to know I had more power here. Well, I appreciate you saying that because it takes time to shift the dynamic. And if somebody is committed to making you the villain in their story, or if they're committed to being the victim every time they tell the narrative of their family, it's pretty hard for people to let go of victimhood. It's pretty hard for people to change the identity that they got screwed over or that their family, everybody's crazy, or nobody cares about them, or I make the effort, but nobody else does. And when you get that storyline, it's a very powerful thing to tell yourself because you feel right totally. And anger and resentment, it can become the substitute for the love that you actually crave. And the second that you say, well, I was wrong about them, or you attempt to step out of the story where you're the victim and you step into someone else's shoes and try to understand what it might have been like for them just to see a different perspective, nothing's gonna change. But in the conversation today, I actually do think people can change. And I do think if you're willing to examine your own storyline and ask yourself, well, I realize that this has been the story. I realize that it's been for a long time that my sister doesn't care about me or that my in laws are selfish, or that I'm invisible in my family and nobody cares, if that's the story and it's been this way for a very long time, nothing is gonna change unless you ask yourself the question, well, what do I actually want? Is this how I want it to be? And if you don't want it to continue, to be this way, the one person that can change it is you. And I want to be very clear. Your experience as a child is exactly aligned with the mother that you had. I was not available. I was desperately trying to save our family from financial ruin, and I was in panic mode all the time, and I didn't know how to build a business. I didn't know how to do what I was doing. And so I was constantly feeling behind, and I could not do what I was doing and also be an awesome mom at the same time. And so I own that. And I also though. Thank you. And I appreciate that you can, from where you are now and looking back at the dynamic, see what was on my side in terms of the responsibility and also be mature enough to say, I can see that. I crossed my arms back in elementary school and was like, well, she likes Kendall more, and I'm more like dad. So I'm just gonna go over here in the corner and be silent and hold it all in and see if she notices me.

Sawyer Robbins (28:42)

I think you were trying to reach out your hand towards the end, and I think I still was in that cross my arms. I'm mad at you, and I like to be mad at you, because then you give me a more attention phase.

Mel Robbins (28:56)

Ooh, can we just stop right there? Because I think that's something people can really relate to, that if I'm mad at you, I'm naturally going to want to make it up to you. And I have this dynamic with people in my life where I feel I'm constantly in trouble and they're keeping score and that when they're annoyed with me and I can hear it in their tone of voice that I now have to somehow smooth this over. And I definitely felt that dynamic with you. And I love that you can admit that you liked being mad at me.

Sawyer Robbins (29:29)

Yeah, it was great.

Mel Robbins (29:30)

What was great about it? No, seriously, what was great about it?

Sawyer Robbins (29:34)

I felt like when I was mad at you, then you actually gave me the time of day, and it wasn't until I was in tears or I needed help or I needed some advice, AKA your career, that you actually, genuinely were paying attention to me without your phone in your hand, without thinking about other things. It was almost like if I was in trouble or I was mad at you or I was in a emergency situation, that is when I would get your full attention. And that is the only time I would get your full attention. And so I felt like I was training you unconsciously. Like, I had no idea that I was doing this, but That I was training you to come closer to me whenever I was mad at you.

Mel Robbins (30:30)

Wow, you did. Cause my experience of being your mother is that especially once you got to high school, you were, like, done with me. I don't need you. I don't want you. I want your credit card. I want the keys to your car, and I want you to shut up and just not bother me. And so I started to comply. And I wanted something different, but I just didn't know how to do anything different or reach you without you being so annoyed or angry with me all the time. It's true.

Sawyer Robbins (31:09)

It was all because I looked up to you and wanted to be you. And I think that that was, like, the same thing with Kendall, too. It was like I just wanted to be her, and I didn't know how to communicate that. And so instead of being like, I'm so proud of you. I want to learn from you. I want to go in the same direction, or I don't know what I want to do, but I think what you're doing is so cool. Instead, I was just like, I can never do that. And so therefore, I'm gonna punish them.

Mel Robbins (31:52)

I think this is such a relatable experience. I am so grateful that we're having this conversation, Zoe. And I'm grateful that you're together with us, because I know that this conversation is going to improve your relationships. And you're gonna feel so much better if you truly take to heart everything that we're sharing. And I cann wait to see who you share this conversation with. If you're anything like me, finding the perfect gift for someone you love sometimes feels impossible. I mean, you want it to be meaningful, special, unforgettable, and more importantly, something that feels personal, like it was made just for them. You want them to wear it, right? That's why you need to turn to Pandora. Every piece feels like it's designed to capture the moments we treasure. Their jewelry is beautiful, thoughtfully crafted, and somehow always just right. And if you find yourself overwhelmed by options, Pandora's holiday gift guide makes it so much easier to pick something perfect. They've got festive charms that'll add a sparkle of holiday magic to shimmering rings. And with Pandora's lab grown diamonds, you can add that extra touch of elegance that will make their gift that much more special. So whether you're choosing something for that special someone or picking up a little something for yourself, Pandora is how you make this season memorable. Show your love and give a gift that says it all with Pandora. Shop Pandora Jewelry today in store or@pandora.net and wrap the world in love somehow it's almost flu season again and it seems Covid season hasn't ever really left us. Which means it's time to get updated on your seasonal vaccines again. But you're so busy. Where do you find the time? Walgreens makes it simple with day of appointments and flexible scheduling on nights and weekends. You can even get multiple vaccines in one trip and knock out some errands while you're at it. New mascara? Check. Toilet paper, Done and done. Double chocolate ice cream. I mean, hey, you're prioritizing your health so you deserve a sweet treat. Am I right? Scheduling online at Walgreens is simple and only takes a few minutes to book appointments for the whole fam. Plus you can feel comfortable knowing Walgreens has trusted experts that can talk through any questions and vaccine recommendations with you. Stay protected this respiratory season and stop by or schedule today. Vaccines subject to availability and for ages 3 state, age and health related restrictions may apply. You know, one thing you may not know about me is I love giving gifts. And I love giving gifts that scream luxury but secretly they're really affordable. The kind of gifts that somebody would never buy for themselves. 14 karat gold jewelry, beautiful Italian leather totes, gorgeous soft cashmere sweaters for men, women, kids. You can find everything where Quince it's the online store for quality, luxurious gifts for people that you love that are affordable for you. I love the sweaters at Quint's. I never want to take them off. And yeah, you're going to love Quint's so much because everything's priced 50 to 80% less than similar luxury brands. You're going to find yourself treating yourself too gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quints.commel for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N c e.commel to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.commel so soy we're discussing the process of using the let them theory with one another over the course of the last year and how it has truly healed and improved our relationship. And so let's fast forward to the part of the story where you go through college and you're out working for this massive cybersecurity firm. You're in your early 20s, you're getting promoted, you have all this stuff, you're saving money and you decide that you're going to take this trip and backpack Solo around Asia, something you've wanted to do since you were a little girl. You go realize this dream and then what happens?

Sawyer Robbins (35:59)

So I quit my job and I go to Asia for four months and backpack solo to seven different countries. And it was so amazing. I was on such a high. I came back from my trip. I immediately wanted to go back, but I had no money and it was the middle of winter up in Vermont. I have moved back home, living with my parents at 25.

Mel Robbins (36:31)

This was a year ago, almost to the day.

Sawyer Robbins (36:34)

A year ago, almost to the day. And I.

Mel Robbins (36:38)

What were you thinking about the fact that you're moving in with me and dad?

Sawyer Robbins (36:43)

I thought it was temporary and so.

Mel Robbins (36:47)

I hope it is. I love you, but I hope it is.

Sawyer Robbins (36:50)

Well, I'm still living here for everyone, but I thought it was temporary and so I thought this is going to be a great refresh. I'm going to move to New York, I'm going to get a job within like three weeks of getting back. Like this will be totally fine. And then I get back and I just crumble with everything. I am crying every day. I have no idea how to process my emotions after I just completed like the biggest goal I've ever had in my life and it's over and what am I going to do now? And I can't go back in the corporate world, but I will never work for my mother. And mom approaches me and ever so slyly, she says, hey, soy you need money, clearly, and I need a little bit of help. How about you work on for the entire next week a little research project that I call the Let them Theory. And I will pay you however much. I think it was like 50 bucks.

Mel Robbins (38:08)

No, it was like a good. I was going to pay a professional researcher like $40 an hour. Because the Let them Theory, I had stumbled upon it many months ago. I had shared it online, it had gone crazy viral. We had done one podcast episode about it and that podcast episode became the sixth most shared episode on all of Apple podcasts of the year. And so when something goes that crazy, I'm like, I need to dig in deeper and I need to understand why is this resonating? Why are people getting tattoos that say let them? Before I commit to writing a book about this thing, let's dig into the research and see what all of you are telling us. The power of the let them theory is. And so I was gonna hire somebody to do it. And so I thought. Cause I was very clear, you don't wanna work for me. You've always said, I don't wanna work for you. I don't wanna work for you. Which I respect. You want to have your own path in life. Absolutely agree with that. Absolutely follow your own path. But I was like, okay, we both have a problem, let's see if we can solve it together. And so you took on this project, 40 bucks an hour, I think it was, to do a quick research project for two weeks where I gave you the thing that had gone viral initially, like a 60 second thing, and I gave her the podcast episode and said, I want you to dig into the comments and I expected you to come back within two weeks and kind of give me a couple pages of analysis. But that's not what happened. Within 27 hours, Sawyer produced a, like, I don't know, 36 page document that was a active Excel table with color coded dropdown menus and source links, including not only the 36 pages of citation and analysis and color coding and dropdown menus, but a two page synopsis which also included the fact that she said, mom, you can't write this book. Because what I'm seeing in the comments is 90% of it's amazing, but 10% of people are saying, I'm saying let them. And I'm really lonely. I'm saying, let them. And I see that my friends don't call me back. I'm saying, let them. And I see I'm the one and my family that makes all the effort. We cannot do a book about something that makes people lonely. There has to be a second part. Now, meanwhile, as she's saying this to me, I'm holding this very thick packet of information that looks like some sort of marketing engineer has used AI to create. And I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, oh my God. I think for the first time in your life, I actually understand the way your brain works, that you basically have a supercomputer between those bright blue eyes and those beautiful ears and smile that is crunching data all the time. And if you don't have a monster of a project to aim it at you, aim it at yourself. And it made me want to cry because I understood immediately why you're so hard on yourself and why you're always in your head. And then the second reaction that I had was, holy shit, I got to figure out how she can work for me, because this kid is a genius. I've never, never seen anybody do research like this before. I have never seen something organized like this before. The analysis was spot on. And I will tell you point blank that the reason why the let them theory has two steps. Step one being say let them. And let them is where you detach from controlling another person and you let them be who they are. And step two is 1,000% because of Sawyer. And step two is let me. And that's where you say, let me. And you direct yourself to the truth, which is the only thing that you can control in any relationship or your life or your career is you. Your response, what you think, what you say, what you do, how you process your emotions. And that's where you get to take responsibility for your life. That's where all the control and power comes. Cause when you say let me, you're reminding yourself that it's both your responsibility to figure out what you want to do. And let's talk about the word responsibility. Responsibility just means the ability to respond. And in our case, one of the things that has been absolutely unbelievable around the let them theory is that it's not only stopped you and me from trying to control the other person, but in saying let them, Let them. Let them to each other, I say let them. When Sawyer seems intense, I say let them. When Sawyer seems pissed off at me, I say let them. When Sawyer kind of has that crossed armed vibe, and then I say, let me. Let me decide how I'm going to show up right now. And there are moments where I choose to step toward you and to try to make sure you know that I'm here. And then there are moments where I say, let me just give her space. Instead of micromanaging her and thinking something's wrong. Let me just respect her as a 25 year old human being who is allowed to have experiences in life that may be challenging. And I don't need to step in and mother her. I don't need to step in and smother her. I can just let her. Let her be intense about work right now because there's a lot going on and so long. And the short of it is, you agreed to step on and help me write the lethem theory book.

Sawyer Robbins (44:17)

I still can't believe it.

Mel Robbins (44:19)

Why can't you believe it?

Sawyer Robbins (44:20)

I am not a writer. Like I am not.

Mel Robbins (44:23)

I beg to differ, but go ahead.

Sawyer Robbins (44:25)

And I just remember you saying, sawyer, I think we need to write this book together. And after loving the research project, I signed up and said, okay, but not full time. I will be on the side and I will be a contractor. And then I was still resisting.

Mel Robbins (44:49)

This is actually really important because I gotta give you massive props for boundaries. So notice what she's doing. Because here's the thing. In any relationship, when things start to shift, it doesn't shift like that. These dynamics between you and the people in your life, whether it's your mother or your father or your sister or your brother, or maybe it's your adult kids, these dynamics have been in place for a very long time. You both have stories about each other and you gotta be willing to first of all go, well, what do I actually want? I know what I have. What do I actually want? And the thing is, before the let them theory book and before the tools of let them and let me, we had a lot of fun together. We could get drunk and hang out and party. We can go out to dinner, we can go on mother daughter trips with everybody else and post all the photos. But underneath all the veneer, there is that sense of, I'm not a priority. And this doesn't understand me because she's always working and I gotta do it on my own. And Dad's the one that's there for me, not her. And I had this sense of, no matter what I do, Sawyer's never gonna warm up to me. I know she loves me, but she is intentional about needing to separate and not let me in. And I can feel it like you can feel it when somebody in your life is like, arms crossed, swords up, I'll let you in when I feel like it. Or I've had a couple tequilas. Like, it's just. There's people in your life like that. And you may have good reason to have those boundaries up because they've hurt you and because they're not predictable. And the more that I was working on myself and the more you started working on yourself and the more we both knew we just wanted to be closer without the bullshit between us. That's where the opening happens. But first you gotta decide. I wanna change the story here that I'm telling myself for the sake of experiencing something different.

Sawyer Robbins (46:54)

And at this point, I was not in the mindset. I'm doing this to improve my relationship with my mom. Like, that is not what I was going into this. It was, I need some moolah. And she's got it. So. So I just want to put that out there that this was not in a intentional self discovery. I need to improve my relationship with my mother. This was how my mom marketed it. Was, this is a launching pad. And I said, great. It sounds for New York.

Mel Robbins (47:24)

Yes.

Sawyer Robbins (47:25)

And for your next gig. And you can learn as much as you want. You can stay for as long as you want. There is no guardrails. But I really need some help with this project. So for however long you wish, it's up to you and we can get started. And I had said, okay, fine, but I'm never going to be full time and let them. And I think it's so hilarious because growing up, every single week, I think mom would say once a week. I just can't wait to have a family business.

Mel Robbins (48:01)

I wanted so desperately for you guys to be part of a family business because I saw how that kept my mom's family in close proximity in upstate New York. And I just figured, the world is so busy, how cool would it be to all have work to keep us together? And since the work is digital and interesting and media, there's lots of different things you could do. So I always saw it as, why would I want someone else to run this business? Why wouldn't I want one of you to run this business? And what a better way to be able to be together than to work together. And I will say the experience of seeing you as a colleague has been an extraordinary gift because I get to see how your mind works. I get to see you in meetings with Audible and Hay House and the PR teams and the Today show. And it's just incredible to get to see a completely different dimension of who you are. And I think if you've got a kid or a sibling or a parent that is an athlete or they're an artist or they do something where you can see this side of them, you know what I'm talking about. But for those of us that don't perform like, who knew your skill was a supercomputer brain that can do digital marketing and project management and be a business lead that doesn't come out when you're little. And I probably would never have seen it in you but for the fact that we had this experience of writing the book together. And I'm saying this because I love thinking you don't know the people you think you know, that there's a whole different side of the person that you love that you've never even experienced before. Whether it's artistic talent or a knack for writing poetry, or they're an incredible sense of direction out in the woods and they can guide you anywhere. That the stories that we tell ourselves about the people that we know the best trap us in a relationship with that version of the person. And it limits your ability to experience someone in a new light. It's one of the reasons why so many of us love our friends so much more than our family. Because our friends come in and out of our lives and experience us out in the world. And our family almost never does. Our family still experiences us as we were inside that family system, as the golden child or the troublemaker or the one that's this. And you start to resent the fact that people don't see you for your full self. And that's what this experience, this past year has done with my relationship with you. And it's also why the let them theory and saying let them and saying let me is a game changer in your relationships. Because when you start to say let them, especially with family, it creates the space for you to accept someone as they are and perhaps start seeing them for who they are for the very first time. Instead of judging or wishing or managing or worrying when you say let them, you do what everybody wants, which is you truly learn how to accept somebody instead of trying to control them. And then when you say let me, you're now cueing yourself and reminding yourself that you get to choose how you show up with this person in your life, what energy you bring, what sort of questions you ask, and when you start to focus on the energy that you bring and how you show up with the people that you think you know best, that's what creates the ripple effect that creates change.

Sawyer Robbins (52:12)

When we started working together, I finally understood everything that you do and everything that you have gone through in the past 25 years that I've been alive. And I just had such an overwhelming, like, appreciation and compassion for everything that you do on a daily basis and how much stress and overload which I am now experiencing you experience.

Mel Robbins (52:45)

And it's running a business this size.

Sawyer Robbins (52:48)

Yes, it's.

Mel Robbins (52:49)

No one knows how big this business is.

Sawyer Robbins (52:50)

It is insane. And, like, I genuinely don't think Kendall, Oakley or dad will ever know how much you go through, and I would never know how much you go through and everyone that is relying on you and needing your attention and needing things from you. And I think that that also really helped me basically look through your frame of reference and your lens. And I think it just allowed me to have so much more compassion for you and so much more understanding and just appreciation. And once I saw, like, the internal side of the business and truly put myself in your shoes, I think it's only then that I was like, I need to show up differently. And I want to cheer for her. I don't want to boo her. And now I understand.

Mel Robbins (53:47)

It's such an important point. And this brings me to kind of a takeaway for you listening. And it's if you want to change the narrative or the story or the dynamic with somebody that you care about, especially if you've known them for a long time, you have to truly want to step into their shoes. And we talk about this tool called Frame of reference that I learned from my friend Lisa Bilyeux at length and how you use it with the let them theory. But I'm going to give you a couple quick examples because this is really important. I recently heard somebody say to me, you know, I don't understand why my kids are upset by who we voted for in the election. And what I said to them is, I don't think you're asking the right question because you just said to me, I don't understand why they're upset with me. Maybe the question needs to be, I need to step into their shoes to try to understand why they might be upset with me. See, I think we stand on our side of the line and we look at somebody else and we judge them and say, well, I don't understand why they're like this. Have you ever stopped and asked yourself, I wonder what it was like for my mom. I wonder what it was like for my sister. I wonder what it was like for my little brother. We're so consumed with our experience that we start to build a narrative around it, but we never actually even want to step in and consider. And I remember my relationship with my mom shifted immediately the second I stopped to ask myself, wonder what it was like for my mom to be 19 years old in the middle of Kansas City, married to my dad, who is starting medical school. And here she has a newborn and she's working nights at the irs. Her family is halfway across the country. It's just her and my dad who's starting medical school. She's a brand new mom. She's just got her friend. I wonder what that was like. And when you stop and step in someone else's shoes, what you realize is most people are not monsters. Most people are doing the best that they can with the resources and the life experience that they have. In the words of Dr. Avlon, People do well when they can. And we tend to judge from our point of view. And then we sit there and cross our arms and go, I don't understand why my mom's so upset with me. I don't understand why my sister's so selfish. I don't understand why. Well, have you stopped and asked Yourself, I wonder what it must be like to be that person. If I assume good intent, I wonder what that must be like. Because there's a difference between wishing someone would understand you and actually taking the time and being interested in understanding why they might think the way that they think. And when you're in a relationship with somebody, a sibling, a parent, an adult child, where you have got so much baggage built up, like you are literally pulling up to any conversation on the phone, any text message, any anything, I want you to imagine you have a fricking U Haul next to you. You got everything that's ever happened, all the death by a thousand cuts. You're both kind of locked in this. It just takes one person to change the dynamic. But here's the thing. If you're the one that goes to therapy, if you're the one that listens to the podcast episodes, if you're the one that reads the Let Them Theory book, if you're the one that starts to calm yourself down and act like a more mature adult in the relationship, more loving person, if you're the one that's using the tools and you're saying, I wonder what it was like when my mom was such and such, or I wonder what it was must have been like for my little sister, or I wonder what it was like for my dad. And you step into their shoes, do not expect the other person to do the same thing, because expecting someone else to meet you at the same level that you are now trying to learn about and meet yourself and go through life, they cannot do that unless they've done the work and what we write about extensively in the Let Them Theory book. In fact, the book is divided into eight sections. And one of the sections is all about how our attempts to make other people change and our expectations that they should keeps the dynamic stuck. And so the hardest part about all of this is that yes, you can change the dynamic. No question. Absolutely. And all you need is you. You do not need the other person's participation because your behavior and your emotional maturity is so powerful that it influences the dynamic. And if you're lucky, over time, it changes the dynamic. And I want you to think about it this way. Let's say you have a really antagonistic relationship with somebody every time you get on the phone or you see each other. It's like you both pull up in your U Haul trailers with all the baggage. You both hope it goes better, but the relationship is a lot like a tug of war. You each pick up the rope, you hook it to the U haul. And now you're pulling each other with all the baggage and the weight. The fastest way to win the tug of war is to actually just drop the rope. Don't play. Let them. Let them tug. Don't tug back. And what's gonna happen is the person's gonna tantrum. The person's gonna say flipping things. Oh, is this what you learned in therapy? Is this therapy speak that you're using on me now? Let them say it. I don't know, mom. Just tired of the tension. Really would love to have a better relationship with you. So I'm trying. Oh, let them. Because they don't know how to operate in the new dynamic yet. They're still committed to the baggage and the story. They don't know anything different. And now that you're showing up different, you're calmer. You're not pulling on the rope, you're not stabbing back. You're just showing up. You're clear that you want to shift the dynamic. Every time they say something that would normally agitate the hell out of you, just say, let them. And let me remind myself that even when they act like an 8 year old, I'm not their parent and it's not my job to manage this. So let them. And when you stay in your power and you continue to do it over and over and over, the person in your life reveals how much they can meet you at this level. And you might be surprised. You know, there are people in my life that I've had antagonistic relationships with, and now that I have the let them theory, and I show up very differently and I'm calmer and I'm more compassionate and I'm more understanding and I walk away. The second I sniff any kind of stress or antagonism coming, I just remove myself from the conversation. The dynamic's different. As I step into someone else's shoes and I go, I wonder what it must be like to be. And I really play out the story in my mind from the other person's point of view. You know, the sibling that didn't get married, the sibling that can't get it together, Wonder what it must be like to be the one that mom and dad is supporting. That can't feel that great, huh? You know, wow. I could be a little bit more compassionate here. Maybe it's not worth my time and energy to actually get bothered by this. Maybe I should just bathe myself in feeling sorry for somebody and a little bit more compassionate that this is what their life is like. And just Let them. And let me say, let me remind myself that I'm really proud of where I'm at and I'm proud that I'm the emotionally mature person. And what you're going to notice is it takes time because as you said, Sawyer and I thought it was a beautiful thing to share that when you were angry, you got my attention. And a lot of people in your life are angry or they're in breakdown or they treat you in passive aggressive ways because it gets your attention. And what does that tell you? It tells you all they ever wanted was your attention. And maybe you can be the one that can close this distance because you start giving them the attention in an entirely new way. And when somebody starts to feel tended to and they start to feel like they have a little bit more of your attention, it's kind of shocking how people change now. It doesn't always happen. And that's something that's important to say because let them doesn't change things. It creates the space for things to change. And that's why this is so powerful.

Sawyer Robbins (63:24)

I loved the visual of the tug of the tug of world because immediately what I thought was if you put me and you on either side of the tug of rope.

Mel Robbins (63:35)

Yep.

Sawyer Robbins (63:35)

Every single time that I was mad at you, I was tugging. And every single time you would basically hold on tight and tug closer to me.

Mel Robbins (63:46)

Yeah.

Sawyer Robbins (63:47)

Because you just wanted to save me and do all this and do all that. Whenever we fight, whenever we used to argue in the past, it would be both of us tug of Warrington. And I think with the let them theory, which you started implementing with me and our family way before I even knew it, I think what ended up happening is I would start to tug and you would drop the rope and I would fall down, which happens every single time. And it's not falling down in the sense of I'm less than or screw her, it's more so. Oh, she's just not playing this game anymore. And I think that's what's so beautiful. What is so beautiful about the let them theory is you actually can't play the game of tug of war when one person isn't playing.

Mel Robbins (64:36)

It takes two. And none of us want to see that we are a participant in a dynamic. And that's why it takes one person to change not only the dynamic with anyone in your life, but. But it takes one person to change an entire family system. And as much as you can change the dynamic with anybody and you can improve any relationship because you can shift how you show Up. You have to always remember something. There is one thing you will never be able to change, and that's another person. People only change when they feel like changing and when the conditions for changing are present. And that's important, because if somebody doesn't want to change or they can't change due to some condition in their life right now, they're not going to change. And there's too many relationships where you're wishing someone would change and you're working against the fundamentals of human wiring, which is people have to feel that they are in control of their own lives. That's why they're tugging on the rope. They want your attention. They want to win, they want to be right. So they tug on the rope when you say let them. And you don't play that game. You just shifted the dynamic. And as things shift and it impacts someone else, now they have to question, huh, if what I used to do doesn't work, maybe I should try something else. And that means you're triggering the truth about human beings, which is they only change when they feel like it. And if you're changing the dynamic and what has always happened and all the baggage is no longer relevant because you're not arguing over the same old crap anymore, then all of a sudden, there's a lot less to argue about. And that's what creates this space that makes someone else actually want to change. Because most people are actually seeking your intention. They're seeking to feel important and seen, and they've just been going about it in very negative ways or in subconscious patterns that just don't work anymore. As you're listening to me, and so I share all this and everything that we've learned the hard way. I really can't wait to see what you do with this conversation. And I can't wait to hear from you and to hear how it's improved your life, your relationships, how it's helped to disappear this distance that we're talking about. And I just am excited for you to share this with someone that you care about. So are you hosting people this season? Well, here's your chance to make your home during the holidays a little more magical and a lot less expensive. Just go to ikea. The selection is unmatched, and so are the prices. And right now, through January 7th, you can save up to 50% off. Select items in store and online. If you're an IKEA loyalty member, you get an extra 10% off on sale items. Need to clean up the clutter before all the guests arrive. Ikea Storage Solutions is going to keep your home tidy from toys and tinsel having extra guests over. 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I know what you're thinking Mel. Does Mushroom Coffee taste like mushrooms? No, it tastes like coffee. It tastes like productivity. It tastes like it's a great day to have a great day. Rise gives me the energy and focus I need without the crash or jitters of regular coffee. Total win. Check out Rise Mushroom coffee and get 15% off your first order at risesuperfoods.com Melrobbins that's R Y Z E superfoods.com MelrobbinS don't just wake up. Awaken with Rise. What's it like to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with AT&T next up Anytime it's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouth watering possibilities. Learn how to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT&T and the latest iPhone every year with AT and T. Next up Anytime AT and T connecting changes everything. Apple intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set T US English some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next up Anytime feature may be discontinued at any time subject to change additional fees. Terms and restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details. So you know in the process soy of you and I really learning how to use the let them theory to create more space for our relationship to change. It's really been extraordinary to get to know you in a totally different way and I think that's one of the most exciting things about talking about this today with you as you're listening to us, is that you have no idea what's possible in your relationships. You only know the way it's been. But I see a bigger possibility for you. There's no doubt in my mind that people in your life can change. Don't you agree, soy?

Sawyer Robbins (70:54)

Yes, 100%.

Mel Robbins (70:55)

So we start writing the book together.

Sawyer Robbins (70:58)

Angies.

Mel Robbins (70:59)

What do you mean, Angies? Geez.

Sawyer Robbins (71:00)

Oh, geez. It was not a breeze.

Mel Robbins (71:04)

Oh, my God. No.

Sawyer Robbins (71:05)

We. Mom.

Mel Robbins (71:08)

Yes.

Sawyer Robbins (71:09)

This horrible. I genuinely think if the topic of the book was not letting other people be themselves, live their lives in order for you to live your best life and for you to finally be yourself, I would not be sitting here today.

Mel Robbins (71:32)

How come?

Sawyer Robbins (71:34)

Because this book writing process brought us closer, but also was.

Mel Robbins (71:42)

Whew.

Sawyer Robbins (71:43)

We had. It was hard. It was really hard.

Mel Robbins (71:49)

You know, the let them theory and saying let them and then saying, let me as a way to diffuse tension and frustration and stress in your relationships. It doesn't make anything easy. It makes it happen. As we are writing this book together and just imagine the craziness of this. We have a mother daughter relationship, a daughter who does not want to work for her mother, a mom who is stressed out and running this massive business, dying to be closer to you. We now have this project that we're working on only because you need money. And it just so happens that the project heals our relationship because the tool that we're writing about is a tool that brings you closer to other people by letting go of controlling them. And it forces you to let other people be themselves, which makes you see them for the first time. And so I said, let them. Let them. Let them with you probably five times a day.

Sawyer Robbins (72:58)

I think I said it 25 times a day. And let me just paint the picture for you guys.

Mel Robbins (73:05)

Okay?

Sawyer Robbins (73:06)

So we are living together, which is.

Mel Robbins (73:08)

I would not recommend.

Sawyer Robbins (73:09)

Do not recommend. Do a project virtually or something. But we are living together. So every single day for the entire last year, this is how it go. We'd wake up, hey, Mom. Hey, Soy. How are you? Oh, my gosh. You sleep well? Yeah, sleep well. Okay. Then we go to exercise together. No boundaries. Then we eat breakfast together. One of us is making the same smoothie for the both of us. Then we're in such a positive mood. We go up to the office, we sit down, and then all of a sudden, our personalities come out. Mom, her brain is the most beautiful, creative, absolute disaster tornado I've ever worked with in my entire Life. She cannot make a decision. She is all over the place. And you cannot contain her in structure. She wants to creative right for I don't even know how you got your other two books done, to be completely honest, but she would love to creative right every single day for the rest of time. She wants no boundaries, no structure. She pretty much writes the same thing 20 times in a row, and it sucks. And then I come in and all I want to do is, what is the organization? What is the structure? Give me the table of contents, give me the outline. And I would literally set up outlines for her. Write this sentence here, write this, this here, write this. And the amount. You should see our Google Drive. It is like 5,000 different documents because it is me creating structure, Mel not writing, mom not writing in it. And then her creating a whole separate document where she chooses to write everything and then coming back to me, and then we come back together. It was both of our brains do not work well together. And so the entire time I was trying to control her and she was trying to basically run away from me. And so every single day, it would start off with us just saying, let them. Every single time. I really had to let go of my need to put this into a structure and come up with the main points and summarize it and just work in order of chapters. Meanwhile, we are all over the place and creative writing and we're doing this and then we're scrapping this. We literally went through 11 manuscripts. And when I say 11 manuscripts, it's not a sentence change, it is a scrap the entire thing and rewrite from page 0, the entire manuscript. 11 of them in the last year. All of which I said, I think we're good here. I think not good enough. And it was not good enough.

Mel Robbins (76:12)

I agree, let them.

Sawyer Robbins (76:14)

But I literally had to say, let them every single time. And so that's about 12:12pm when we start getting hangry and annoyed. And then we eat because we both notice that we're starting to get snippy and on edge with each other. And then comes the afternoon where it can go one of two ways. Mostly one way which is blow up, fight crying. You don't. You don't listen to me. You don't do this, you don't do that. And then it's a total relationship, like, therapy session between the two of us where we end up crying and hugging and then getting back to work. And then if it was a good day, we have a glass of wine. If it was a bad day, we have a Glass of wine, and then we go to bed. And then we. Literally, every single day, Monday through Sunday, that was our routine.

Mel Robbins (77:09)

And then in between that, producing all these podcast episodes and giving speeches and everything, it was a lot. It was too much. But the bigger takeaway is this, because I don't want you to be discouraged from ever working in a family business, and I don't want you to think that all of the tension and fighting was for naught, because the bottom line is, writing a book is a colossal undertaking. Typically, you would do it in two years. We produced this one in eight months. That is insane in terms of the timeline. And the only reason why it got done was because of you. And when you're not only dealing with somebody that you have a story about and you want to have a better relationship with, but you also have very different working styles and thinking styles. Using the let them theory is a lifesaver, because every time I would say, let them, because Sawyer was yelling at me that I was rewriting a chapter and I wasn't following the outline. And why even bother doing an outline if you're not even going to follow it? Every time I said, let them, what happened is I recognized the genius in your brain because this is how you think in life. There are what I call box jumpers and box steppers. So if you imagine a path every step, A, B, C, D, E, the path leads from point A to point Z. You are the kind of person, Sawyer, that you don't need to see point Z. You know exactly what A to B to B to C to C to D. You are a genius. You are a box stepper. You can take any process. You can organize a structure around it. Like, my brain cannot do that. It can't. Your dad is the same way. I am a different type of thinker. I am what you call a box jumper. And it is my genius to stand at point A and see all the way down the line and go, oh, we're going to W. Now, I have no idea how to create a map to get there, but I know we're going to get there. And here's the problem with most of our relationships. I want Sawyer to be a box jumper. I want her to think like me. I want her to be like me. And that's why I feel frustrated and tension and, like, anger and resentment, because you're not like me, and you don't think like me. Meanwhile, Sawyer just wishes I was a box stepper, that I could go from A to B and then B to C and she doesn't understand why my brain doesn't work the way that her brain works. And I think most of us build up this invisible distance with one another because we've never learned how to say, let them. And when you say, let them, and you let somebody freak out because their brain works differently or because their expectations weren't met, like, I think a lot about. Especially around the holidays or big celebrations, of course your family's bummed you're not coming. They love you. Shouldn't they be upset? Shouldn't they be disappointed? I mean, what's the alternative? I'm glad you're not coming because I hate you anyway, instead of saying, oh, well, what does it actually mean if someone's disappointed? It just means they love me and they just wish I were there. Doesn't mean I have to change my plans. Because two things can be true at once. Someone can be disappointed in me and still love me. And I can be kind of sad that this year I'm going to my in laws and I'm going to miss out. But those can both be true. And what can also be true is my daughter and I can be very different thinkers, and we can be wired very differently. And through understanding and acceptance, there's room for both of us. And it's in that space where Sawyer can be frustrated because I'm, yet again, as an artist, I'm just an artist. That's what I am. I blow something up because I know that this isn't going to take us to W. And I can't explain to her how we're going to get to W. But I know her genius will get us there. If I can create space for your experience to be sad or emotional or mad and just let them. And then I say, well, let me. Let me be honest with myself about what I know to be true and let me hold space for you to be upset. Same thing's true with you. Okay, let them. Here goes mom again, the crazy, insane artist. Let her. And let me remind myself as the project manager on this, if this doesn't hit the deadline, not my fault, it's hers. So let her blow it up because her name on the COVID Let her do it because she's gonna have to reap the consequences of it. And it was not easy. And that's the thing about the let them theory as a tool. It's a tool that you are going to use every day in every relationship. I literally say it every day in my marriage. I say it every day with Sawyer because little things piss you off little things make you roll your eyes. But instead of letting those little things become the invisible cuts that create the distance that makes your relationship slowly die and resentment take over when you say let them, you just let them go and it doesn't build up. And you learn how to love the person as they are instead of constantly wishing they were just like you because they're never going to be.

Sawyer Robbins (82:42)

I think that also using the let them theory in this book writing process made this book so much better because you let me write from a 20s perspective and I let you, even though I can't relate from a 50s perspective. And so I feel like this book has so much relatable stories and so it reaches so many different age groups. Mine, yours, everyone's in between. That it actually brought the finishing product.

Mel Robbins (83:15)

Oh my God. Incredible.

Sawyer Robbins (83:16)

To be so much better. And I think that that like just having both of our writing styles woven in throughout of it is really amazing.

Mel Robbins (83:27)

Well, if we hadn't had let them, we probably would have thrown this project out the window and said, let's not bother. And you would have quit and moved to New York and said, see, I told you. But it was the tool of saying let them and then saying let me that created the space for us to work together on a project and have very different styles and also very different experiences. Because this is my ninth book. We've done six audiobooks for Audible. We did the Five Second Rule and the High Five Habit. So I've been through this rodeo. You haven't. And so it's also this experience of bringing someone into a project who is learning in the seat, doing a remarkable job, but also all the stress and anxiety that comes from never having done it before, 100%.

Sawyer Robbins (84:20)

And I think that also you. I noticed that you had done let them a lot with me when I was freaking out about things that you didn't think were a big deal and vice versa. And I want to say two things. I want to say one piece of advice of another way that you can use Let them and let me. And I want to say one warning that I experienced during this process.

Mel Robbins (84:46)

Oh.

Sawyer Robbins (84:47)

So the first is that what I love about the let them theory is that you can vocalize it. And so I feel like in a lot of our conversations, at the end of the day, mom, you would. I would say to you, I am trying to let you have your process and I am trying to let you creatively write about this topic. And at the same time, I need you to let me create these briefs and create this. This. Because this is how I think. And otherwise I don't understand what you're doing. And so I feel like it's a tool for you to approach a conversation as well as saying it to yourself. Whereas you can go up to your loved one or whoever you are hoping to communicate better with or build your relationship stronger and say, I am trying to let you do X. And at the same time, I need you to let me do X. Sawyer.

Mel Robbins (85:43)

That is a genius takeaway. And let me tell you why, just to add to this, because it's way bigger than working on a project with somebody that thinks differently. There are gonna be times in any relationship, whether it's with a sibling or a parent or an adult child or the person that you're in a relationship with, where you don't like what they're about to go do. You're worried about it. You think it's a dumb thing. Like, for example, let's say you have somebody in your life who's planning on quitting a great job to go start a business. They want to follow their dreams, right? Of course you're worried about it. Most businesses fail. Of course you have concerns about whether or not it's going to be successful and whether or not this is the right time. But in life, you have to let them. You have to let them live their lives. You've got to let them follow their path. You have to let them try things and fail. So you can say to someone in your life that is about to change their major or quit their job or date somebody that you're like, red flags, red flags, red flags. Which we all know nobody listens to anyway when you try to warn people. So you gotta let them. But it is 1000% effective for you to go, and you need to let me do what I need to do in this regard. So you need to let me create a budget. If you're going to go quit your job and launch a business, you need to let me create a spreadsheet that shows you exactly how much money we have before we run out, which then allows me to manage what I'm worried about without trying to control you to manage what I'm worried about. Do you see what I'm saying? And so the second that you said to me, cause I kept going, I don't need a table of contents. I don't need this. Just let me write. And you'd be like, mom, I'm gonna let you do your thing, but you have to let me organize myself in a way that makes Me feel comfortable when I get on the phone with the publisher because I need to organize myself. And I realize I'm responsible for that. And you also started to realize controlling you isn't going to actually give you power.

Sawyer Robbins (87:54)

And then the warning that I will say is I found myself throughout the process, whenever you and I would get into it a little bit, that I would always let them, and I would always use that tool. But I rarely followed up with let me and let me explain. So you would say, I need to do it this way. I need this from you. I need this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, xyz. And my initial response, I would tell myself, let them do not react. Do not play into it. Do not try to be right. And as a result, my response was always silence. And I would always just let you go and let you do your process. And I would sit back and feel very sad and emotional and left out and felt like you weren't listening to me. And as a result, my emotions would bubble up and bubble up and then I would explode. And I think what was really crucial and that I really noticed is that whenever I use let them with you, I always had to follow it up with let me, which is don't react, but collect my emotions. Take a breath, say, let. Let them. Let mom. Let her do her process. Instead, let me communicate how this makes me feel or communicate how her not using the organization or the this or disregarding the months worth of work that I've done and creating something brand new is making me feel well.

Mel Robbins (89:44)

And I want to broaden this out because we really, in the course of writing the book about the let them theory and how stressful it was, used these tools all day long. And so this applies in every relationship. Because if all you do is say, let them, and even if it's like the example of you go home and your mom is like, I don't know. I get all stressed out when people are coming over and gotta clean the house and gotta. And anybody that tries to help, I'm bristly. And if all the family does is say, let them, let her get all worked up. Let her micromanage. And nobody then says to themselves, I gotta say, let me, Mom. When you get like this, it's not fun for anybody. Let me help you. What that does is it breaks up the dynamic where there's invisible distance because your silence, when somebody's behavior is making you upset, it actually creates distance because when you stay silent, you take a step away from somebody. And when you remind yourself by saying Let me. You now prompt yourself to say something. And every time you say something, not so that you control the other person, not so that you change what's happening, but so that you say how you're feeling or how somebody's behavior is impacting you, you actually take a step closer to somebody. And it's in hearing how my behavior was impacting you that would have me stop in my tracks and change how I was operating, because I didn't want to make you feel that way. I was just all stressed out and worried about the book deadline. So of course I'm, like, doing what I think it's going to do. Same thing with getting ready for guests to come over. Everybody's running around like a lunatic because they're stressed out. And when we say, let them, let them, let them, we don't let somebody else's stress impact us. But when we say, let me tell them how their behavior is impacting me now, I'm taking a step closer and seeking connection instead of creating more distance. Does that make sense?

Sawyer Robbins (91:52)

Yeah, 100%. And what's so beautiful about the let them theory is the fact that it's a gift to someone else as well.

Mel Robbins (92:03)

How so?

Sawyer Robbins (92:04)

I think that, like, all I want is for people to use the let them theory on me. I want people to say, let Sawyer do her thing. I want people to say, let Sawyer be who she is. I want you to say, let Sawyer want to organize and have her OCD and let me be who I am without trying to control me. And so I think that our relationship improved because we both were using let them on each other. And so I think that the let them theory improves relationships because it's not only when you start using it the first step in proving and breaking this toxic dynamic, but I think it's such a great gift to share with other people and to share with your loved ones, because when they start using it on you, you're gonna be like, hallelujah, Hallelujah, girl.

Mel Robbins (92:53)

Yes.

Sawyer Robbins (92:54)

Keep using it. Like, it's so amazing, and it's great. I love it.

Mel Robbins (93:00)

I do, too. I do, too. It creates room for more love when you say it. And so I wanna just make sure that you're leaving not only seeing yourself in a dynamic with a sister or a parent or an adult child or somebody that you love, where this sort of invisible distance and weirdness, I want to make sure that you really kind of get some of the key takeaways. And the first one is we all have a story about the other person. And until you recognize that you have a story about the other person, and Sawyer's story was that. What about me?

Sawyer Robbins (93:35)

I think my story about you was that you don't care about me and that you only care about work and my siblings and.

Mel Robbins (93:45)

Oof. I still hate hearing it, even though I know it's not.

Sawyer Robbins (93:49)

It's not my current story.

Mel Robbins (93:51)

What's your current story?

Sawyer Robbins (93:53)

I think my current story is that you've gone above and beyond and worked your ass off your entire life to provide for us and to show up for us and to love us in so many ways and just be the best role model in the world. And I think you're the best mom ever.

Mel Robbins (94:16)

And my story was that you're always mad at me and I've done something wrong and that you don't need me and that you don't want me unless I'm paying for something or you have an emergency. And that is not my story. My story now is that I get to see you every day and work with you. And I have just crazy admiration for the way that you think and your work ethic. And as your mother, I'm just worried. I want you to have a little fun, that's all. But I gotta let em. Let em. Book launch is almost.

Sawyer Robbins (94:51)

Book launch.

Mel Robbins (94:52)

Yep.

Sawyer Robbins (94:52)

Then I'll have some fun.

Mel Robbins (94:54)

That's tool number one. Recognize the story you're telling and then ask yourself, what is the story I want? And if there is this invisible distance or this weird friction, what do you want? And it might just be, I'd just like to be a little closer. I'd like to have more fun again. I'd like to stop arguing about stupid stuff. I'd like us to both come out of our corners and uncross our arms and just realize we're on the same side. And that brings me to the next thing, which is it's very helpful to stop and ask yourself. I wonder what it's like. I wonder what it's like to be the oldest in a family of three where Mom's always working and Dad's business failed and Mom's always gone and she's always stressed out. Like, I wonder what that's like. And to have a younger sister that's on a stage, and that is this and that. I wonder what it's like to feel the weight of responsibility and to feel like you're not seen or that things are never good enough. And when you stop and go, I wonder what it's like. And you put yourself in their shoes for the sake of truly Wanting to understand what their story might be. It allows you to lower your sword and uncross your arms and drop the rope and really come from more of a place of a little bit of compassion. And then you're going to use the let them theory and you're going to say, let them. Whenever they're just being themselves, whenever the U haul arrives with all the baggage, whenever the old stuff comes up, whenever you feel the distance, the stress, the frustration, the whatever, let them. Because the more you let them be, the better your relationships are going to become, and the more the dynamic shifts. And then you got to always remember to say, let me. Because that's where you remind yourself that what you feel and what you need and the actions you take really matter here. And the final piece of advice that I want to give you is that there's no doubt in my mind that the let them theory alone would have transformed our relationship. But it was accelerated in terms of the timeline for transformation because we had a project to work on. And this is a really important thing to consider. I bet you've had experience in your life where something happened, maybe somebody got really sick in your family, and everybody drops everything and runs in to help, and suddenly the baggage isn't there, because there is something other than the history that everybody's organized around that made you be on the same side. And so I want you to consider, is there some kind of project that you could think up that could help you erase some of this distance? Could you ask for help? Maybe there's a back bedroom you need to move out, and you want to set up an office. And one of your siblings or your mom or one of your adult kids is fantastic at kind of interior design and Pinterest boards. What if you ask them for a little bit of help? It's a project that you could organize yourselves around where you're on the same side. And this kind of thing isn't just what Sawyer and I experienced. I dug into the research because I was really curious about this. Turns out that there was a study done, in fact, two of them, that I want to share with you because I think you'll find it empowering. The National Institute of Health wrote about how when people have to solve a problem together, we had to write a book. Maybe your problem is you have a kid that's been diagnosed with dyslexia and you don't know what to do, but your sister's really good at this stuff. Or maybe you're going through a breakup and you need help, and your mom's not that great until you actually need consoling. And so when you have a project that you can work on a problem that you're going to solve together, number one, it creates this common goal which is going to give you and this person in your life a shared purpose. It's going to allow the two of you to collaborate. And the other thing that it does is it creates mutual reliance. In any relationship where there's this invisible distance, you're not relying on each other. You're actually resentful and antagonistic of one another. When you come up with something cool, whether it's a project or a little trip you can take together or something cool you could do together or something, it's going to help you create a stronger bond because it gets the focus off the dynamic and onto the project or the problem you're solving or the trip you're going to take. Something that creates this sense that you actually belong together. And I'm going to share one more thing. They actually did a study, this is out of the University of Texas, where hurricanes, they did this after Hurricane Harvey. And I'm not suggesting that hurricanes don't come with problems, but when a family or a couple goes through a natural disaster together, there is a massive jump in happiness after the hurricane goes through. Why? Because a natural disaster suddenly reminds you of what actually matters. And all those little things that have built up over time and that created all that distance suddenly doesn't. Because you've got bigger things you need to deal with and problem solve and work on together to get through it. And that's what that book did for you and me. That's what you can create with anybody in your life. And using these simple tools. And of course, the let them theory, you have a couple simple things that you can do that will help you close the distance and create a different connection with somebody that you deeply care about. And I really hope you do. Anything else you want to say, Sway?

Sawyer Robbins (100:54)

The last thing I'm going to say is something I'm really excited about, is that you and I not only are going to have this tool for the rest of our life, but we're going to use this tool for the rest of our life. And I am so confident it's going to continue with every use that our relationship will get better and better. And the fact that we have this book and this tool that I can give to my own kids to improve. I'm 25, I don't have kids. But eventually, eventually.

Mel Robbins (101:27)

Do you use it with your significant.

Sawyer Robbins (101:29)

Other yes, every day.

Mel Robbins (101:31)

Does he use it with you?

Sawyer Robbins (101:33)

I hope so. But he will be the first to be getting the book, so I'm very excited to gift it to him so he can use the Let Them theory on me.

Mel Robbins (101:42)

And I'm really excited, too. Like, that's the thing, is that everybody thinks that this is about other people. It's actually about you. You want people to be saying, let them. You want your whole family to know this. And I am so excited for this to be out in the world. I'm excited for you to learn to use it. I'm excited for you to drop the rope and stop doing the tugging back and forth with people. I'm excited for you to close the distance between you and people that you care about. And if they continue to be emotionally immature, you're gonna have the Let Them theory by your side because it does take time. I wanna thank you for being here together with me and Sawyer. I'm so excited for the people in your life that you're gonna share this with and that you're going to give the Let Them theory book to. And I cannot wait to hear how you use it for you. Sawyer, I just wanna say I love you so much. It is the greatest gift in the world to have had this experience together and to get to share work together and experience a whole different side of you that I would never have if I was just your mom.

Sawyer Robbins (102:45)

I love you, Mom.

Mel Robbins (102:46)

I love you too. And I also wanted to be sure to say, in case no one else says it to you today, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the Let Them theory is absolutely going to help you do that. Alrighty. I'll be waiting for you the moment you hit play in the very next episode. I'll see you there. Do you. Do we like the pony?

Sawyer Robbins (103:14)

What's the pony in my head?

Mel Robbins (103:16)

Oh, no. Okay, I can. I can tell now that we've worked together for almost a year.

Sawyer Robbins (103:23)

No, I actually like the pony sometimes.

Mel Robbins (103:26)

Okay. Hey, Here we go. Oh, okay. Does that sound good, Yuna? Perfect. Guys. Yeah. This is where you gotta slay me, Sawyer.

Sawyer Robbins (103:38)

Honored.

Mel Robbins (103:38)

Okay. Oh, that's okay. Sorry. Oak. You've become me, Sawyer. I'm sorry.

Sawyer Robbins (103:47)

Okay, let's start over.

Mel Robbins (103:49)

This is fantastic, though.

Sawyer Robbins (103:51)

Holiday season. Doo, doo, doo. Get your Let Them Theory book tomorrow. Hey, hey, hey.

Mel Robbins (104:05)

Was fire.

Sawyer Robbins (104:06)

Firecracker.

Mel Robbins (104:08)

Thank you.

Sawyer Robbins (104:08)

That was so good.

Mel Robbins (104:09)

Yes.

Sawyer Robbins (104:10)

Before.

Mel Robbins (104:10)

Yes. Perfect.

Sawyer Robbins (104:11)

I forgot.

Mel Robbins (104:12)

Okay, great. Oh, my God. Very cute. I love you.

Sawyer Robbins (104:16)

I love you, too.

Mel Robbins (104:17)

What a gift. You are.

Sawyer Robbins (104:22)

Love you.

Mel Robbins (104:23)

Wow, that was so great. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher Millions of unpaid family caregivers look after their loved ones. A true labor of love. Well, this season, Halion, makers of brands like Advil and Centrum, has supported three caregivers with $10,000. From renovating their homes to making their loved ones comfortable to taking on extra shifts at work so their family can rest easy, each individual goes above and beyond in the way they care. Hear the winners stories now by visiting betherewithcare.com contest ended November 15th. Official rules at Be there with Care Celebrity Cruises semi annual sale is so good, you're going to need a bigger bucket list. Explore the Caribbean, Europe or Alaska with 75% off your second guest plus bonus savings. Book today and see why nothing comes close to celebrity cruises. Visit celebrity.com, call 1-800-celebrity or contact your travel advisor. Offer applies to select sailings. Savings amount varies by stateroom category. Other terms apply. Visit celebrity.com for details. Ships registry Malta and Ecuador.