← The Mel Robbins Podcast
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The Real Reason Boys and Men Are Quietly Struggling & How to Support Them
01:19:24
In today’s episode, you’ll hear about the real reason young men are quietly giving up and what to do about it. This episode will change the way you see the men in your life – and the way they see themselves. Today, bestselling author Jason Wilson is here to talk about what most men won’t say out loud — and what they need to hear. For the past 22 years, Jason has been mentoring boys and men at the Cave of Adullam — a martial arts based mentoring program that gives them permission to feel, room to heal, and the tools to lead. And what he shares in this conversation will move you. It will surprise you. And it will equip you with the tools and insights to help the men in your life grow. You’ll learn: - Why so many men are silently struggling — and the real reason they don’t talk about it. - How emotional suppression is destroying men’s peace, purpose, and relationships. - What boys actually need to grow into strong, emotionally healthy men. - How to support the men you lo...
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Our expert today is one of my most favorite people on the planet. I'm talking about bestselling author Jason Wilson. And Jason is here in our Boston studios to talk about the surprising things that the men in your life are struggling with and probably not talking about. So whether you're listening to this because you're a fan of this podcast or because someone shared this with you, I'm gonna promise you something. As you listen to the wisdom and the power of Jason Wilson, you're gonna be saying to yourself, I've felt this way, I've been this way. I've been told that I've made other people feel that way. And you're also gonna know what to do about it, because Jason is here to tell you there is a level of freedom, of peace, of power that is available to you no matter who you are, no matter what your background is or how much money you make or don't make. Whether your father was in your life or not, this moment of your life demands a different version of you. And today, you and all the boys and men that you care about are going to learn how they need to start showing up differently for the most important person in their lives themselves. Somehow, summer got busy. Too many plans, not enough actual summer. So trade expectations for exploration in a BMW. The BMW X3 is agile, sporty and ready for spontaneous getaways. The BMW X5 plug in hybrid brings electric adaptability, high revving power and space for all your just in case packing. And the all electric BMW i4, ultra responsive with control you don't get anywhere else. Three BMWs, all built for less stress and more drive. The BMW summer sales event is on now. Visit BMW USA.com to learn more. Society doesn't want to talk about menopause. And when they do, they don't make it sound very pretty. So Walgreens is helping women change the perception and take back the narrative. Because nothing is sexier than being in control. Menopause is confidence. Menopause is power. Menopause is hot. Let's reframe menopause together. Watch the menopause is hot story@walgreens.com hot hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so, so excited about the conversation we're gonna have today. I'm so excited that you're here. It is always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And I love introducing you to people that have made a huge difference in my life. And that's gonna happen today. And if you're a new listener, I just wanna take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Thank you for taking the time to invest in yourself and your happiness because it really matters. So it is my profound honor to introduce you to a very dear friend of mine. This is a man who's changed my life. I've admired him and his work and the impact he is making in the lives of boys and men around the world for years. His name is Jason Wilson and he has taken the time out of his extraordinarily busy schedule to hop on a plane from Detroit and fly here to our Boston studios for one reason. He's here for you. And he's here to serve and empower the boys and men in your life to tell them exactly what they need to hear and exactly what they need to do to be happier and to free themselves from the burdens that they are silently carrying and probably not talking about. For 22 years, Jason has been mentoring boys and men at the Cave of Adullam Transformational Training Academy on how they can harness emotional resilience, no matter how scary life can feel. His work has earned him the President's Volunteer Service Award. And if you recognize his extraordinarily powerful and calm voice, I'm sure it's because you've seen his viral videos showcasing his compassionate, disciplined, mentoring approach for boys and men. Or maybe you've seen the award winning documentary on ESPN's 30 for 30 that's all about Jason's work. It's produced by Laurence Fishburne. It also has won three awards, including best Documentary award at the Tribeca Film Festival. Here's what I can tell you. The men in your life, they're gonna be better and feel better because of the time they spend with Jason Wilson. His new book is an instant bestseller. The man the moment demands. And today, Jason is gonna speak directly to you and to the men in your life and help them access the peace, the power, the happiness, the freedom that they truly deserve. So without further ado, please help me welcome my dear friend and bestselling author Jason Wilson to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I have been waiting to get you to hop on a plane and to be here in Boston. I am thrilled you're here.
- [05:24]
B
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm really happy for you. I'm proud of all that you're doing. It's amazing. I've been a fan of yours. Seemed like forever and so to see all that you're doing and the impact you're making is really inspirational. So thank you, and I'm proud of you.
- [05:42]
A
Thank you for saying that. And I'm finally at a point in my life where I can receive it. So thank you, and thank you for writing this book. I pored over it. There's so much that I want to unpack with you. And for anybody that is listening right now, I would love for you to talk to the person they may be in their car or at home or at work or taking a walk, and they've invited us along. Could you tell them, Jason, what they could experience in their life that could be different? If they really take to heart all of the wisdom that you are about to pour into us today and they apply it to their life?
- [06:28]
B
That's a really good question, because so many people are suffering in silence, both men and women. And so I would tell them the one thing they would really get is finally the freedom that they desire and deserve. So many of us hide behind facades, and there is no freedom there. So many men wear Superman capes that are strangling the life out of them. And so what I offer is a path that I've traveled and successfully made it to the place where I can exist in who I am instead of what I do do. And so, so many of us identify our worth in what we can bring to this world, instead of just us just being in this world. And so if they take to heart what we share in this time together, they can finally evolve to live from the good in their heart instead of the fears of how they'll be perceived.
- [07:16]
A
Wow. The sentence about not being what you do, but allowing yourself to be who you are in your heart. And I know that this is one of those conversations that is going to be shared all around the world. And if you could speak directly to the man who's listening or the young man who may be listening, who probably has never listened to this podcast, this might be the first episode that got sent to him by somebody that cares deeply about him. What will he get from this conversation? And listening to you and your experience and your wisdom today, every man I.
- [08:00]
B
Know, they're battling internally. And so there's this war being waged, but they're losing. And so what I offer is the mental and emotional tools or weapons to win this internal battle before it becomes another external war. And as men, we know what the external wars look like. It could be divorce, marital discord, or just not getting along with your children, being impatient, giving your best to the world. And when you come home, you have nothing for your family. I know what that feels like. I know what depression feels like. But I also know what freedom from depression and anxiety and unresolved anger and childhood trauma looks like. But as men, we have to have that same masculine spirit that we have in protecting our families and providing for them as healing our own selves. The same vigilance it takes to work when you're exhausted just so you can provide for your family is the same vigilance you need to heal internally and wage those wars against childhood trauma. The mother wound, the father wound, whatever it is that's causing you to lose in life. It's time that we learn how to fight the right fight.
- [09:11]
A
What I find so fascinating about you is you are possibly the most powerful, peaceful, calm presence in terms of how a human being shows up in a room and holds space. Like, you're the kind of person that you walk in and you have this unbelievable quiet power, and you can feel everybody exhale. And when I hear you talk about your work, which we're gonna get into, it is very interesting. And I also know, because you're a brilliant guy, intentional. That you marry words like war and battles with the freedom and peace that we seek. Why do you talk in such kind of opposite terms? You know what I mean, about the work that you do with boys and men and the way that men should be thinking about their healing.
- [10:13]
B
Well, I do know what's innate in us is to fight, is to be the warrior, is to provide. But also what is in us is the nurturer, the peace giver, the gentleman, the friend, the lover. These attributes or characteristics are in us. But so I have to bring them together and with the warrior spirit. So because society is teaching, has taught men that being a nurturer or being kind are attributes you do not want to have. Or crying. We tell our boys young don't cry, but yet we found out from Dr. William Frey that tears not only contain 98% water, but also stress hormones when we cry and release this emotional pain from our bodies. So then we wonder why so many of our boys repress the pain that they feel. And next thing you know, they're doing something that they shouldn't. And so I always try to intersect the two of being the warrior, but also the one who can bring peace. And so when you give men both analogies, give them the warrior, but also the wisdom. Truthfully, we want to win, and we're tired of missing the moment, which is why I wrote this book so many of us aren't present, we are the wrong man in the moment. When we need to be tender, we're tough. When we need to be patient, we're volatile or dogmatic, and fathers are hurting. I get so many messages and calls from men who are tired of ruining the moment with their children and. And then you don't want to live and die with regrets. And so I find it my mission to help men navigate through the pressures of this world, as well as the pressures they face internally without succumbing to it.
- [11:58]
A
You know, I've been a huge fan of yours for going on seven years now, when I first started watching some of the videos you post online and some of the news broadcasts about your transformative work. But for the person that's listening right now, who maybe hearing your extraordinarily calming and powerful voice or watching you on YouTube right now, could you just share a little bit about your background and the work that you are doing around the world with young men, with boys?
- [12:28]
B
Sure. The journey started, unfortunately, in my family with trauma. My grandfather was lynched in 1936, and as a result of that, his children, my aunties and uncles, could never release it. It was so much pain. And that was when I saw the effects of intergenerational trauma from there. My mother's first marriage, I wasn't born yet, but it was very abusive, and she was beaten. Her husband, the father of my brothers, would slap them with the flat size of butcher knives, shoot guns in the house, and again punch her like a sack of meat. And in 1973, Mel, my brother Larry, our brother, was murdered, and my mother basically lost the will to live. She would tell me, if you. If I wasn't born, she would have taken her life and not for the community of people who surrounded her. I don't know if she would have made it out of that. And I wanted to share just that brief story because during that time, my brother and I needed a father, a man to help us navigate through that pain. But unfortunately, as men, especially from the 1900s on, you're just taught and conditioned to provide and protect. But if you felt weakness, you were considered pusillanimous or weak, lacking courage. And as a result of that, I believe many of us take our lives. We commit suicide 3.5 times as likely as women because there's no room to be human. And so when I started the Cave of Adullam, the martial arts mentoring program, that's what it was when I first started.
- [14:06]
A
So you decided that you wanted to start a martial arts Mentoring program?
- [14:14]
B
Yes. To give the boys what I longed to receive from my father. He was in the same city but wasn't really present in my life. So I always longed to have that man that I could have an allegiance to who would challenge me but not condemn me, train me up in the way of manhood. In a way, I would become comprehensive and not overly, I guess, callous or trying to be hyper masculine or too sensitive. I wanted the right balance. And I was looking for, I guess, comprehensive manhood and didn't find it.
- [14:44]
A
Now why martial arts?
- [14:46]
B
So the sensei to me or the coach was this father figure. It was the yearning to heal this father wound that kept festering throughout my life. And I saw the power of martial arts. But I also saw something that was a major problem. Here it is. You have men who could knock you out with one punch, choke you, tap you, sweep you, throw you at ease, but yet couldn't deal with the stress of their job, couldn't handle their wife's emotions with composure to help calm the situation that they're dealing with. You were a black belt in the gym or the dojo, but a white belt in life. And I started to connect the dots when I was fighting male and I'm just trying to learn to fight. My instructor stops after he was sparring with me, says, you're tunnel vision. I said, what do you mean? He says, you're like a shark when it smells blood in the water. You're locked in on the prey, but you don't see the guy with the harpoon above. Why am I getting psychology training in martial arts? But that's what it was about. It really wasn't about self defense. It was about self control. And I tell all of my students, you cannot defend what hasn't been disciplined. And so when I started the martial arts mentoring program, it was discipline based. I did scare straight programs. And I realized that our boys didn't need to be scared straight. They needed to be healed. How can you expect a young boy to heal from trauma by re traumatizing him? They didn't need more discipline. They needed more love. And I shifted the model to more of like a safe space. Still pushing them, still giving them the fire they need, but yet giving them the opportunity to share what's heavy on their hearts. And it transformed every student that I come across because they just want an opportunity to be heard. And we have one study in house that over 78% of our students improve their grade point average by one letter grade. And check this out, Mel. Without Tutoring, simply allowing them to express the heaviness, let them see their cause and effect, to reset and refocus. It works even with ADHD symptoms. I have videos of kids couldn't even sit still for two minutes after teaching them how to breathe and then getting them to talk about what's troubling them. And that's all boys. One is the opportunity to be more than strong, more than courageous. And you can't be courageous without fear anyway. You have to learn how to feel. If you have no fear, what do you have to be courageous about? There's nothing to lose. And that's all our boys want. And truthfully, that's what our men want as well.
- [17:30]
A
Well, your work is now spread around the world. You've had award winning documentary films made about the work that you're doing. After working with men and boys and helping them build emotional resilience and intelligence and helping people heal from trauma. What keeps you up at night right now, Jason? When you think about the challenges that boys and men are facing, u while.
- [17:56]
B
I no longer stay up like I used to, it was hard for me to let go of the disappointments of the day. When I reached the evening, I realized that's what tomorrow is for.
- [18:06]
A
Ooh, say that again. Wait a minute. You're like spitting poetry every time you're talking. I'm like, say that again. But then I don't want to interrupt you. Say that again.
- [18:16]
B
I stopped allowing the disappointments of the day to continue into my rest. I realized that's what tomorrow was for. I can't do anymore. And so once I was able to allow myself to reset, I have a concept called the four R's where I reflect, release, reset so that I can rest, reflect on the heaviness of my day, Things that I need to let go of, things that I may need to retain. What if I was impatient with my daughter or sharp to my wife? I don't want to release that because I need to revisit that and reconcile with them. Then I release anything, any thought that could become toxic, every emotion that could prevent me from resting Once I've allowed that. And also I'm a spiritual man. I pray to God, I said, I pray you're pleased with my work today. But now I need to rest. Once I follow those three reflect, release and reset, now I can rest. And so when I get to the rest piece, I let it all go. Mel but to your question of the concern is that I'm concerned for boys now. They're overly anxious, apathetic an extreme fear of failure. And they're longing to be loved, not only by their mothers in a certain way, but their fathers. And I have to help them navigate through all of these emotions in the moment. That's why I love martial arts, because in sports, I love sports as well, especially with comprehensive coaching. But when a fist is coming at your face, when a guy takes your back in jiu jitsu, and he's choking you, when you're getting thrown and you're blindfolded, so you have to be relaxed and accept the fall, you can't fake it. And so now these emotions surface. And so when I see boys crying and angry, I stop the entire class and say, why are you angry? I know you're angry. This is a surface emotion, which is why I created the earthquake of emotions exercise in this book. The anger is what is at the surface, the epicenter, what's damaging everything we love, that everyone can see. I teach them how to express the emotions at the hypocenter. If you can stop them there, you will save what's on the surface. And so a young boy may be angry at me, ready to fight me. And I say, dig deeper, Christian. It's not me. It's something that happened to you. And now he cries and releases the fact that his father died when he was young. And then when his grandfather tried to help him, he passes. I had another young boy never express the heaviness of his grandfather dying once. We gave him the freedom to feel. This boy is one of the best students we have. And so when a boy can be human, when I don't tell him to be fearless, because no one can be fearless. Grown men or married men with children understand that when your child is born, it's like your heart walking outside of your body.
- [21:21]
A
Amazing.
- [21:22]
B
So you know, okay, okay. There is a such thing as fear. The key is that we don't succumb to it. This is the problem. When you allow. When men allow ourselves to be defined by one adjective, masculinity or masculine. Because it's just a set of attributes traditionally ascribed to men. Strength, boldness and aggression. So if that is our identity, that becomes our worth. And then our value becomes in our work, what we do. Then you wonder why so many men, especially athletes, when they retire, they have no purpose. They feel like they're worth nothing. Men who are in their late 60s that I've talked to, I can't provide. I can hardly walk. Because your worth has been in what you do, Mel. I walk around, I take pictures. Whenever I see an elderly couple out. The wife is peppy, she's moving around, but the husband is on a cane or a walker. Barely can move because his entire life he worked himself. He had to prove himself. And so many men can't even take naps. Male when their wives are at home. I used to jump up from the nap when Nicole would come through the door.
- [22:34]
A
Well, because you're gonna get in trouble if you're sleeping. Same way with Chris.
- [22:37]
B
But that's a problem because as a hard working man, naps well, you know, this. Naps are essential.
- [22:44]
A
Yes.
- [22:44]
B
We're starting to see how it affects our mental health.
- [22:47]
A
Yes. Jason, there is so much I want to unpack with you about everything that you just shared. And as you keep coming back to some of these statements, freedom to feel. And there is something so much deeper going on that is causing men to feel that their worth is defined by their work and this inability to both feel what they need to feel deep down. Not the anger on the surface that we all see and the frustration, but what's underneath all of that and the ability to rest. And you know, it reminds me of this point. If you turn to page four in your incredible book, you write about this, there's a passage that you have in here that I actually triple underlined. And I'm wondering if you could read the part where you talk about rest.
- [23:43]
B
Absolutely. When men say we're tired, it typically doesn't mean we need sleep, it means we want rest. There is a major difference between the two. Sleep is an unconscious state that provides physical and mental relaxation. Rest, however, is a conscious state of freedom from anything that wearies the soul.
- [24:07]
A
What is it that is making men and boys souls so weary?
- [24:14]
B
We're living performance based lives from everything we do, how we look, how much money we make, how successful you are. Even the misleading mantras, for instance, you know, no pain, no gain. That's not a universal principle, meaning it can't be applied to everything in life. So as a sports analogy, if we, you and I, owned a football team and our top quarterback was injured towards Achilles, we wouldn't send them right back in the game and say, hey, no pain, no gain. Men live their lives off of that misleading mantra. Then you wonder why, truthfully, the more pain we're feeling, there is no gain. We're really living lives that are detrimental not only to us, but to our families. We're so geared on being so strong all the time that we don't even go see the doctor.
- [25:08]
A
Oh my God, that's So true. I was just on Chris's case, you know, because he's, like, not able to sleep and he's. But this is. He never goes to the doctor. He won't allow himself to get sick.
- [25:18]
B
Why go? You're only valued for what you do. I'm not loved. I'm only loved for what I can provide. Why do you think most men, you ask them, what do you want for Father's Day or your birthday? They say, I'm good. Nothing. Because they're receiving something for just being. And that's the biggest plight I see with so many men. And it gets me emotional because they wear the facade like everything's good. A lot of times, families miss the forest for the trees. They miss the struggle because of the smile. When a man always says, I'm good, nothing's wrong. That's a warning. As men, if someone dies, we hug each other and say, stay strong. So subconsciously we're programming each other that when we feel weak, we're not men, and say that weakness, that time is meant for us to rest and recover. Rest is not weakness or something that makes you milksop. As a man, it's a restoration of strength. But if we don't feel loved, only appreciated for what we do, and. And then what's even deeper, if we don't love ourselves, to many of us, we feel that we're only going to find rest when we're resting in peace.
- [26:38]
A
You mean like when you're dead?
- [26:39]
B
Yes. So why go to the doctor? All I do is work. Why would I want to prolong my life here? A workhorse? I don't want to be a workhorse. I want to be a racehorse that can finish this journey. And along that journey, I'm taking care of myself. But most men are just workhorses. And when it's time for them to be done, they're off in a pasture alone, suffering in their silence, not feeling valuable, because their whole time existing, they were doing.
- [27:12]
A
You know, Jason, for somebody that's listening, they're like, you know, I think that that is true about a lot of men, but not my son. Not the guy I'm married to. He seems fine. He's okay. You know, he's watching the ball game on the weekend, he's golfing. He hasn't lost his job. We're good. What do you want the person listening to know, particularly women, about the truth?
- [27:38]
B
Ask him, how are you really doing? Intently look into his eyes and hold his hands. How can I support you? I received a call from a Close friend just two days ago. And it still affects me right now. He had told me, for the first time in his life, he looked at his gun and considered taking his life. And I said, why hadn't you called me? He says, man, I know you got a lot going on as well. And so as men, we're so used to wearing the facade. When you see him, he's the most joyous man you will ever meet. You would never think anything is wrong, but inside, there's so much trauma. And because we taught that, don't cry, stay strong, your family needs you. We're like, well, I need somebody. And then we believe that we're alone. That's the biggest lie we could ever believe. Because when you get men together, and your husband Chris knows this very well, you put men in a room alone, they open up and start sharing the heaviness that they've been carrying. For instance. It doesn't have to even be trauma. But what about the father who has children who are autistic or have disabilities? And he goes to work crying every day. And no one knows the heaviness in his heart. A friend of mine was telling me his son was just trying to brush his teeth. And the struggle of him just trying to do something that's so normal for many of us broke him down.
- [29:08]
A
And then you feel like a burden if you share it with somebody. And then you gotta hold it together, because you can't be.
- [29:14]
B
Cause people don't. When you say how you're doing, it's not like you're really intentional. It becomes a just, hey, hi. No, when I ask you how you're doing, I'm here for you. I've had people at restaurants, I say, how are you doing? Oh, you wouldn't want to know. Oh, yes, I do. Tell me. And I give them the space, you know.
- [29:34]
A
You know, one of the takeaways that I have from listening to you so far is a very meaningful change that I could make is whether I'm talking to my son Oakley on the phone, right, who's off at college, or I'm talking to Chris. At the end of the day, instead of being like, how was your day? Really? Intentionally recognizing. That's a moment to create space, to say, how are you? No, really?
- [30:05]
B
Absolutely. I'm holding. Like. Nicole and I exercise, our therapist taught us, is just to sit in front of each other, knees touching, holding each other's hand and staring into our eyes. No communication. I actually do that exercise with fathers and sons when they're going through, I guess Having some conflict. The father always is the first to start crying because words really don't express what we're feeling. The eyes. When you're looking into each other's eyes, you look into your son's eyes and you know, as a father where you've made mistakes and you know, really his behavior is tied to a lot that we're doing to give the father the opportunity to show his love in a way without saying it. And the son sees like, whoa, my dad is like super tough, but he must really love me. I must be really special for him to cry right now. And that's all we want. Our children just want to know that they're the apple of our eye and not the worm in the fruit.
- [31:05]
A
Wow. I want to take a quick pause because I want to give the person listening a chance to share this with the men in their life. The first person I'm going to share this with is my brother. I can't wait for him to listen to this. And don't go anywhere because after you hear a short word from our sponsors, Jason Wilson and I, we're going to be waiting for you. We have so much more to share with you, so don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after a short break. This Back to School season Spend less on your kids with Amazon. Look, we love our kids, okay? But let's get real. They're expensive. Thankfully, Amazon has all the back to school must haves that they need and want, all at low prices. From every binder they need to noise canceling headphones and lunchboxes, to water bottles, to pencil cases, uniforms, snacks and all kinds of school supplies. Amazon helps stretch your budget without sacrificing their style, their back to school list, or your sanity. When our son Oakley was in high school, Amazon was our lifeline for back to school shopping and beyond. Because we could find everything he needed to start the school year off right. Everything on the list, all in one place. And boom. Shows up at our door. And when he'd lose another water bottle or need a new set of headphones or a notebook for class, Amazon had our back. So remember, with Amazon's low back to school prices, just spend less on your kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. Shop back to school at Amazon and spend less on your kids. There's nothing better than feeling like things are gonna get done without you even having to ask. Like your kid remembering to walk the dog without a reminder. Well, AT&T's new guarantee is all about having your back. When you're with AT&T, if there's a network interruption, they'll proactively make it right with a credit for a full day of service guaranteed. AT&T connecting changes everything. Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guaranty for details. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. They say if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. When you go with Amica, you're getting coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers. So they'll help look after what's important to you together, auto, home life, and more. Amica has you covered. At Amica, they'll help protect what matters most to you. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you and I have the extraordinary honor of getting to spend time together with best selling author Jason Wilson. So, Jason, there was something that we were talking about right before the break that I want to ask you another question about, and it's this. It seems, at least I'll speak on my behalf, that the men in my life are either angry in the way they express their emotion or they're silent.
- [34:15]
B
Yes.
- [34:16]
A
Is that pretty typical?
- [34:18]
B
Those are safe. You can't be weak, you can't be soft. You can't be as simp as they say. If you're just angry, if you're silent, you look stoic. Now. Oh, he must be strong because nothing ever fazes him. And so men, anger is a very safe emotion to express. When our feelings are hurt, we're angry. When we're sad, we're angry. When we lose, we're angry. When our wives express that they want to spend more time with us because they miss us, we're angry. It's a surface emotion. That's why I tell men to dig deep. What are you really feeling? And I compare it to masculinity, to the crayon analogy in this book. As men, we stay within the eight box of crayons, okay? And we may pull out four women have 64.
- [35:12]
A
That's why we confuse you so much, Jason.
- [35:15]
B
But this is interesting. We were created for all of those emotions. They're not exclusive to you.
- [35:21]
A
That's true.
- [35:21]
B
It's there. But we've been hoodwinked by allowing society to define what a man is. And so when women are communicating with us, they may pull out. I use analogy of the color violet, and all we have is purple. We can't meet the moment. Or even more complex issues. They ask for lime, and we're trying to put green and yellow together. And because men, we're not used to expressing the gamut of emotions that we have as human beings, we can't meet the moment. And so I need to learn how to express more than my anger. If you don't trust me with the finances, it's not the anger I need to express. It's the hurt you make me feel. Because my father never trusted me with anything that required responsibility, or my mother, because my brother, who was murdered, never really encouraged me to do anything thing that was risky. And so when a man can express his heart to his wife or the woman in his life, a mature woman, she drops her guard. And now we can communicate. Now, this is to the men and to the women. Women should listen as well.
- [36:31]
A
Oh, I'm listening. I'm hanging on every word, Jason.
- [36:33]
B
I tell men, listen, stop allowing the fear of her using it against you to prevent you from being a human being. As we were making this journey, Nicole, I share this story in the book. We were in a car at a grocery store parking lot, and this was the first time I expressed myself without yelling.
- [36:55]
A
How long had you been married?
- [36:57]
B
26 years.
- [36:59]
A
And the reason why I'm saying this, Jason, is because I speak for the person listening right now and probably the entire planet, and that I could just sit here and listen to you as if I were in the best sermon ever. And the more I absorb what you are teaching us, there is no doubt in my mind that it's true. And I start to feel this sense of, like, what do I do? What do I do? You know, if you're a man who's hearing this and you're like, I scream at everybody. I am carrying so much from my past and from my father and my grandfather and I work, work, work. And if I'm not providing or I lost my job, I've lost. And I guess we're gonna get to what to do. But I want to hear you validate that there's hope. Because if you were married to Nicole for 26 years and it took you that long before you could express yourself without the default of anger, there's hope for us all.
- [38:02]
B
Absolutely. And even right now, we still go through intense marriage therapy. And I was sharing this story. I'm glad you shared what you did. Because at that very moment, I had to make a. Because Nicole yells at me, says, you're the most emotional man I ever met, and slams the door.
- [38:19]
A
Oh.
- [38:20]
B
So I'm like, I know she didn't just call me out like that. My manhood. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna go back to being this man who comes in the house. Very dogmatic, unresolved anger, not patient with you. And I'm gonna give you what you want. But that's when I realized, like, wait a minute. I'm not doing this for you. See, again, there it is with the manhood piece. We're used to doing everything for everyone else except us. I tell men to fight for yourself like you do others. You deserve this life. You deserve the freedom. I made the decision that day. I'm not going back. I'm not going back in that cell where it's loneliness and anger and depressed and anger and suicidal thoughts and thinking about my father. I'm not going back. You're going to have to walk with me as this new man. And then to the wives, be gracious to yourself. Because Nicole had to unlearn what she had been deceived to believe a man is. So it's a process on both sides, and it's a journey you both can take.
- [39:31]
A
Let's say the person who's listening to you right now is recognizing I have a lot of issues with anger, and I get so frustrated, and I raise my voice, and I do want to get control of this. Is there a tip that you have for how you can keep yourself peaceful and centered as you're talking to somebody that you care about, especially if it's about a subject that you might get testy around?
- [39:57]
B
I actually keep a picture of my wife in my phone. And because I know that majority of time when we're having disagreements, it's not necessarily The Nicole who's 51 speaking, but Nicole who is 8 or 10 years old, who's speaking during a time in her life where things were unstable. And so this. What this does, it keeps my heart tender towards Nicole. I look at this picture whenever we're having some discord or just a disagreement or distance, and it softens my heart towards her, and it makes me more present. And when I come home and we can talk about it, I want to talk to the little girl, you know, because it's always a cause and effect for every behavior. And this picture is a reminder that we all have broken boys and broken girls inside. And so I often tell wives to do the same. Ask their husband for a picture of a time in their childhood when it was turbulent or they was experiencing a lot of hurt or trauma, and have the wife to download the picture in their phone. And then whenever they're having argument or feeling distance, she could look at the picture and say, I wonder if this is little Dave coming out right now. Do I need to speak to that person? And so this is a great exercise that I do for my heart to make sure that as much as I am tough, that I am tender as well.
- [41:20]
A
I love this because, Jason, what I'm realizing is I could use this with Chris. You know, I can get so caught up in my emotions and I take it out on him that I forget who I actually married and that he's just a really good guy. And I love this. What are the surprising reasons that men are so angry that are important for the person listening to either understand or if. If the person listening is a guy and you're validating their experience, for them to feel validated that they're not alone in experiencing this?
- [41:58]
B
I would say we want to be understood, too. We want to be heard, too. We don't like being made to feel that we're crazy for expressing a concern for something that's not a concern for you, because if we were to do it, we'll be considered impatient or not loving. And as men, we just want to be heard. I can't tell you. Often I would share with Nicole about an issue I would have with our children. And as a loving mother, she takes sides with the children.
- [42:35]
A
Oh, I do this all the time, Jason. Did Chris tell you to say that?
- [42:38]
B
Well, I'm glad I'm saying it. And so I had to tell her. I said, but you didn't hear me, though. You didn't hear what hurt me. I always acknowledge my wrong to my children. I'm not perfect. I just strive to be present. But you didn't hear my heart. You didn't hear how I felt when my son said this. And so as a wife, when you miss that, you'll say, as a husband, I can't give up my heart.
- [43:05]
A
Well, and I also. I think you just made me see for the first time that if your husband or your partner doesn't feel like you're with them, it means you're against them. And now all of a sudden, I didn't mean to, but I've just blocked you out of your own family because I've aligned myself with the interest of the kids in this opinion that I Need to protect them from your anger versus taking a step toward you and allowing you to be heard and validated. And the same thing must be true with your son or your brother as well. Because if you don't ever feel that your concerns or feelings are actually validated, and you're always bossed around with discipline and being told what you're doing wrong and the constant nagging and pointing out which is more of the do, do, do, work, work, work, provide, provide, provide. Whether it's grades or it's wins on the football field or whatever it may.
- [44:07]
B
Be, or the honey do list, or.
- [44:09]
A
The honey do list. Like, now you're being reduced to the actions that you take instead of your experience.
- [44:16]
B
Yeah. And we're in it together. And there's nothing wrong with protecting the children. I protect them.
- [44:22]
A
But you gotta validate the concern.
- [44:26]
B
That's the key. So sometime the cold is the lion. And I say, hold on, Cole. And it goes both ways. But to your point, you're absolutely correct. Is that, well, let me get outside of the mother right now and let me hear my husband's heart. Because you want that as well. You don't want us to just focus on your words. You want us to hear what you're really saying. The most important things we miss, we need to focus on that. I often look at the things that haven't been said. Her body language, Nicole's eyes, how she's moving in communication. And it lets me know what I'm missing.
- [45:06]
A
See, I think you just actually shared the surprising thing that no one talks about. And I'm gonna admit something. This is not gonna surprise you, but it might surprise you as you're listening to me and Jason. So, as you know, Jason, my husband, started a men's retreat called Soul Degree. And he leads them three or four times a year for takes. Twelve guys, ages 21 to 75, all different backgrounds in life. They spend five days off the grid practicing everything you're talking about. Meditation, yoga, silent hikes, small group discussions about things that are happening in their life. Hopes and dreams that they have, frustrations. And you come out feeling like you've reflected, reset. You know, you've released and you've rested and you feel renewed. And Chris does not share anything confidential. But I've often asked him, what is the biggest takeaway? And he said that universally that the men that he works with all say that they come last, that everybody's needs come before theirs. And I'm gonna tell you something. When he first told me, I was like, that's complete B. You guys are watching golf, and you're watching the game, and, you know, you go to work, but then you come home, you do whatever you want. And that was me rejecting a truth. And when I stopped myself and just said, okay, well, let me just process this for a minute. Do I even know what Chris's needs are? Does he even know what they are? And it struck me because I'd love for you to turn to chapter nine in your book, because you write about the exact same thing. It's on page 139. And I want you to read the first part of that so we can unpack this. And as you listen, you're either gonna feel validated or I want you to have an open mind about the truth of this.
- [47:16]
B
One of the most significant obstacles preventing men from breaking free from emotional incarceration and evolving into comprehensive men is the inclination to suffer alone, in silence. This suffering persists because men often believe nobody cares.
- [47:33]
A
See, I think that's probably the biggest problem. Do you think that's true?
- [47:38]
B
Absolutely. It ties to that. You know, we'll say, I'm alone. You're not alone.
- [47:44]
A
Well, and I'll tell you something else. I'd say 95% of the men that either sign up for information about Soul degree, which is Chris's retreats, and this is probably true of the work that you do and the seminars that you do, are women who are wanting the men in their life to really get some support. And the men aren't thinking they necessarily need it. And I believe that we have an epidemic. I see this with our son, who. I'm fine. I got it. Would rather just soldier on than burden somebody else and not even sure what he needs. And so I would love to have you teach us, what the hell do we do? Because as I listen to you and I kind of think about, okay, I'm with you, and I see some of the mistakes that I make that are so subtle, but it's like death by a thousand cuts that isolates somebody. You know, how do you address anger in your son or your husband or your father or your brother? I mean, because if I bring it up and I'm like, dude, you seem angry. No, I'm not. Like, so how. I'm not running a dojo in Detroit and getting people to cause. You have this groundbreaking method that I would love to have you explain to the person listening. But then I want you to teach me, how do I do this? How do I reach my husband? How do I reach my son? How Do I reach? My brother and I would love for you, Jason, to describe this groundbreaking method that you developed using martial arts and boxing to help boys in particular process emotion. And then we're gonna get into. But what do I do at home?
- [49:37]
B
As men, we have to own what we're doing as unhealthy. Meaning if we walk around with this looking like a superhero, we're gonna keep being asked to do superhero things. Cause superheroes don't sleep. They don't need a life. You don't need to go hang with your friends. We first have to remove the cape, leave it at the door, or better yet, put it in the trash. And says. And say, I'm a human being. I'm not to be treated like I don't need sleep. I'm impervious to emotional pain or anguish. And so, as men, you have to first acknowledge that this life is not what I want.
- [50:13]
A
Can I ask you a question?
- [50:14]
B
Sure.
- [50:15]
A
I want you to give the man listening.
- [50:16]
B
Yes.
- [50:17]
A
An assignment.
- [50:19]
B
And so what to do? I would tell them first acknowledge that you're worth more than what you can do when you get there. And when I got there, I was able to say, I can't do it today. I'm sorry you may be disappointed, Nicole, but I won't be able to paint the living room until next month. Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do, my brother, is to let things go undone so that you can get some rest, so that you can not only be present for your family, but to be present for yourself. To be able to look in the mirror and say, wow, I miss this side here. This is hurting me. This is my father neglecting me. I need to revisit this. Maybe I need to go see a therapist or a counselor. Or better yet, I may need to go see my father. Because the last thing I would want to happen is for him to transition out of this place with unresolved hurt, pain, and emotions and maybe trauma. And so identify that you're worth more than what you can do. Also, your value resting actually is a confirmation that you're taking care of yourself. I don't say self love. I say self maintenance. Because we as men understand what it means to maintain something. So please start maintaining yourself and practice saying no and not now. As hard as it can be as this superhero dad, superhero husband, saying no is actually saying yes to yourself. And you deserve to be treated as a human. You just now have to fight for that in a way where it doesn't condemn or hurt those that you love. But yet you make a stance in protecting where you're going.
- [52:01]
A
I love that. And one of the things I want to highlight is that the first step to changing your life is admitting that you no longer are enjoying the way you're living it currently.
- [52:13]
B
I often tell men, you're not tired of living, you're tired of not living. And that's what men are dealing with. This isn't life. This isn't worth it. Everyone else gets to eat off the fruit of my labor, and all I do is labor.
- [52:30]
A
You know what's funny is there's always more you can learn. I mean, my husband leads men's retreats. And still, just listening to you and everything that you're sharing, I'm realizing I can do a better job to show up and to support him and to make sure that he understands that his needs are important. Let's hit the pause button and give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words. And while you're listening to the sponsors and just allowing what Jason's sharing with you to just sink in, share this with the men in your life. Every boy, every man. They deserve this information. They deserve the empowerment. They deserve to be set free. And I know that this is an episode that could change the life of somebody that you love. So be generous with who you share it with and don't go anywhere because Jason has so much more to share with you. And we'll be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us. It started with one car 70 years ago when the first Volvo car arrived in the U.S. since, Volvo has helped redefine safety from the three point safety belt to side impact airbags, a whiplash protection system, and blind spot assist. Innovations that have saved millions of lives and made summer memories safer for generations. Self celebrate 70 years of safety. Visit your local retailer for the summer Safely bonus event going on now. One thing we talk a lot with the experts that show up on this podcast is gut health. And one thing is very clear, if your gut's not supported, it throws everything out of balance. I mean, we're learning that everything comes back to your gut. And that's where just Thrive Probiotic comes in. See, here's something a lot of people don't talk about. Most probiotics don't survive the trip through your stomach. Stomach. But just thrive is clinically proven to make it to your gut 100% alive and ready to work to make your gut healthy. They can help keep your good bacteria in balance. They support digestion, they help your body absorb nutrients, and they Keep your immune system working properly. The result? You have energy, better digestion. Support your gut, support your life with just Thrive. Try just thrive for 90 days. Risk risk free and feel the difference in your digestion, your energy, your sleep, your whole Life. Go to justthrivehealth.com and use code MEL to save 20%. Take the 90 day Just Thrive Challenge today because when your gut thrives, you thrive. That's justthrivehealth.com promo code Mel as summer starts to wind down, it is such a great time to refresh your wardrobe with new staples for fall. You know who has the perfect pieces for layering and mixing? Quints. Their styles are luxe, effortless. They make any outfit look polished with pieces that are so versatile and timeless, you're going to be reaching for them again and again. Think cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at just $40. Uh huh, $40 plus washable silk tops, classic denim pants and so much more. And the best part, everything with quints is half the price of similar brands because they cut out the middleman and pass those savings on to you. You I've been loving Quince's cashmere sweaters. I talk about them all the time because I live in them. I wear them on cool nights when we're hanging out by the fire here in Vermont. I wear them in the office. I wear them out to dinner with friends. I wear them all the time. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.commel for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Mel to get free shipping and 365 day return quince.com Mel welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Thank you for being here. Thank you for spending time together with me and Jason Wilson and for sharing this with the men in your life. And my next question is, you've just heard the direct words from you about rest. What would you counsel a man to do next?
- [56:36]
B
It's time to delve deep. Let's go where you fear the most. Introspectively. Let's deal with the childhood trauma that keeps resurfacing the boy that arise in an argument with your wife. Let's help him heal. So many men are walking around with broken boys and it's truly a sad sight to see because you can see in their behavior, fighting at sporting events, just the reaction, no response, just reacting to anything that pricks the skin. And so I tell men to be courageous and let's delve deep. Let's go where it will hurt, where you will feel what people would say, unmasculine emotions. Let's deal with the sadness, the deep hurt of never really getting affirmation from your mother or affection. And I love what Chris is doing. The best place to start is a retreat, especially an intensive one where you have to leave the phone and everything away and go off grid and really deal with yourself. It's another great one called the Crucible, where I went on to heal from my father wound. And all throughout the entire time, I had prayed and God says, I'm going to show you who you are. I didn't think I was a leader because my father would curse me out for the simplest things. I would never do an interview like this if I hadn't dug deep and went to the areas in my life that caused the most chaos internally. So I tell men, run to that. Like you will run to your family if someone's breaking into your home. You have to be okay with feeling. You have to be okay with being human. You have to be okay with revisiting the past so you can stop allowing your trauma to time travel and ruin your present. And that's what it's about. It's about you want to be masculine? Let's do it. Let's fight right now. Let's be bold and face ourselves so that now you can become a comprehensive man. Now you can heal. Now you can be in the areas in your life where you need it the most. And so when men say, how do I become this comprehensive man? I want it, I say, run to the areas that hurt you the most, that make you feel weak or not masculine or strong.
- [58:49]
A
I love this framework that you develop that you teach called the comprehensive man. And I would love for you to explain the difference between the masculine man and the comprehensive man. And you write about this in your book. But if you would just go through the six attributes of what the traditional masculine male does versus what's available to you if you give yourself the freedom to feel.
- [59:20]
B
Absolutely. So on one side of this chart, we have the masculine male, and on the other side is the comprehensive man. So the masculine male suppresses his emotions and hides behind a facade to appear strong, as we've been sharing throughout this conversation.
- [59:35]
A
And it makes you exhausted and angry and isolated and never able to rest.
- [59:41]
B
Absolutely.
- [59:42]
A
And what is the comprehensive man? What's available?
- [59:44]
B
In contrast, the comprehensive man expresses his emotions freely, without fear of being judged. The masculine male exudes only Masculine characteristics. Again, he's only strong, he's only the provider, he's only the protector. But it's not a comprehensive definition of what a man is. You want to become a human being, not a human doing. And so you have to navigate through all of the characteristics that you must be as a comprehensive man. Believe it or not, you are a nurturer. How many men? Well, you're starting to see more of it now, but typically with the aggressive dog breeds, you'll see a man with five or six Rottweilers or can, of course, those compassionately taking care of him. But he looks, he sees. The image still is tough. The challenge is, I like to see one of you get a dog like I have a kavapoo and do the same thing. But still, you can put your dog down and take care of business if someone tries to challenge you. A friend of mine, actually. I'm glad we're talking about this. He's an ex Marine, severe ptsd, and he bought a dog, a Shih Tzu. He had no idea how this dog would change his life. And he was walking the dog one day, and a guy yelled across the street, you need a real dog. And he yells back, when you're a real dog, you only need a pet. See, that's what it's about. Know who you are as a man. Doesn't matter how you view me. I love flowers for what it does for my mind. But test me if you want to go there. I'm comprehensive. I will not be boxed in anymore.
- [61:20]
A
I want to just stop and say, do you hear the power in what Jason is saying? I love flowers because of what it does to my mind. But don't you dare test me. I love this little dog because I love, like, cuddling this soft, furry thing. I don't need a pet to prove that I'm a man.
- [61:42]
B
Absolutely.
- [61:43]
A
I need some love in return for all that I give.
- [61:46]
B
And I love aggressive breeds. Mel. I've owned Rottweilers and German shepherds at this stage in my life. All that I've been through, I needed something softer to come home to. We can go to number three. I guess the masculine male feels threatened when another man is more successful than him. See it all the time. The comprehensive man, however, in contrast, is not threatened by another man's success, but instead he's inspired by it. When I became comprehensive, I stopped comparing myself to others and start saying, wow, that's amazing. I wonder how I'm supposed to walk on this earth. What is my purpose? I'm happy for him, but I want to know my path.
- [62:30]
A
You know, what I see there is when you think everybody else's success or happiness or bank account or car is a threat, now you're against everybody. And when you become whole, and in your terms, a comprehensive man that is free to express how he feels, he is free to be strong and to be nurturing, is free to be whole, then you realize the game of life. You're never against other people. You're actually playing with them.
- [63:04]
B
Absolutely.
- [63:05]
A
Which means it's not an individual sport where you're against the world. Isolated. You're actually on the field playing with a big team, and it's everybody.
- [63:15]
B
Very good. And oftentimes as men, we look at being an individual as being isolated. This is a good one. So I put it here. The masculine male views women as subservient and sex objects. But the comprehensive man respects women and values their superior qualities. The masculine male feels fear, but will do anything to prevent anyone from knowing he is scared. The comprehensive man feels fear, but openly admits it and thereby makes wise life decisions.
- [63:50]
A
You cannot beat an opponent you deny is there. And so when you recognize that you're afraid, you now open up the opportunity to remind yourself that you have the capability and the capacity to figure it out.
- [64:03]
B
You triggered a memory of a viral video from the cave. One of my students wanted to be a robotics engineer. And we were doing a drill where he had to hold on to me, just hold on. Cause we were working through judo. Don't let go. Don't let go. Go. And then he just stopped. He says, I'm hurt, sir. And I look him in his face. I said, you sure? He says, no, sir, I'm nervous. I say, I want you to yell out, I'm nervous moving forward. I'm nervous. I'm nervous. He had more strength in his hands than he had the entire drill. When you identify it and call it out now, you can rule it it. And that's what I teach our boys and men. You can't have power when you're repressing and holding everything in. Eventually it's going to implode or explode. It's going to come out. And lastly, the masculine male is a slave to his thoughts and emotions. But the comprehensive man masters his emotions before his thoughts become toxic.
- [65:06]
A
If the person listening is worried about their son. Because I know there have been plenty of times where Oakley seems bottled up or bothered by something going on or angry about something. And I'm like, so, how are you doing? He's like, Fine. And doesn't wanna talk. What do you advise us to say if we want to reach our sons but they're not talking to us?
- [65:30]
B
First thing is respect their world. And I've been guilty of saying, wait till you get a real job. Wait till this happen. Then you understand what pressure is about. About. Once you've done that, you've put a wall up between you and them. The truth is, they're experiencing more pressure than you and I did growing up at their age. So acknowledge that what's big to them should be mammoth to you.
- [65:52]
A
Ooh, I love that.
- [65:53]
B
What's big to them should be mammoth to you.
- [65:56]
A
Should be mammoth to you. Because we tend to. Oh, it's not that big of it. You'll get over it. Like, I dealt with it and I turned out fine.
- [66:02]
B
When I work with kids who are on the spectrum, I join their side. I try to become them. If you drop this pin, it may sound like a bomb to them. Oh, how loud is it really, Michael? How do you deal with that? Connect with them on their world. Do not impassively dismiss your children. Once you do that, you potentially risk losing them. Number two, don't worry about perfection. Worry about being present. So often as parents, we think their behavior is attributed to something we did or didn't do. They have a life outside of us. We're not there. Eight hours of their day, we don't know what's going on. They can bypass us because they have the cell phones now. Worry about being present when my son is quiet and shuts down. It hurts me because I love my son, but my goal is to be present. So I come to his room, the door, and say, hey, do you mind if I lay down and just read? I just want to be around you, but I don't want to, you know, invade your space. He said, oh, sure. His quietness, his being reserved or short, didn't have anything to do with me.
- [67:09]
A
I've never actually done that.
- [67:11]
B
I didn't say a word to him. I just lay down next to him. The power of my presence speaks, a love that my words could never. And it makes a major difference. Another thing I tell parents is, what could you live with? Because a lot of parents are like, well, I'm just gonna let them do it. I'm tired of this. Never let your children just be. It's too dangerous.
- [67:34]
A
What do you mean? What could you live with?
- [67:37]
B
Could you live with receiving a call that one of your children overdosed? No, that's what I mean. Or could you live with Humbling yourself, feeling like you're stretching yourself beyond what it means to be a parent just so that your son or daughter can heal, just so that they can have someone to talk to to. Are you willing to inconvenience yourself and put your job down to lay in a room with your child? Or even better yet, hey, can we just go take a walk? Mommy's or dad is going through something as well. I advise, especially like businessmen, that take a walk with your children. Leave the phone at home. It's amazing what it does for the relationship, because in that moment, they're the most important thing in the world. Dad or mom just stopped everything for me. When our children know we love them, they're unstoppable. They don't need the world's affirmation. Believe it or not, studies prove that we're the most influential figures in our children's life. That's hard to deal with as a parent because it's like, man, I'm dropping the ball sometimes. And so I said, what could you live with? I couldn't live with that. With my son, knowing that he's going through all of that and the pressure gets him to do something that could hurt himself. I'm going to do whatever it takes to stretch myself to love him. Apologize more than try to be right. I'm sorry, son. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm sorry that I didn't intend that way. But. So what comes to my intentions, if it still hurt you, I was wrong. Do you forgive me, son? How can we move forward? You are the most important thing to me. I love you.
- [69:15]
A
You.
- [69:16]
B
When we as parents can deny ourselves of ourselves because our children, that's what matters the most. Not what you're doing here. What I do. When we're older, sitting on our front porch, the most important thing we're going to think about is how are our children? Not this podcast, not our jobs, not what we've achieved for the world, but our legacy.
- [69:40]
A
Thank you for sharing that. So, Jason, you said if there's an opening that you want to create. Well, if I do want to create that opening, whether it's with my husband or my son or my brother or my dad or any guy in my life, are there certain words I should use? I mean, how do I create that opening with somebody that's shut down? In fact, can you speak directly to a woman who's listening, who really wants to create that opening, but just doesn't even know how to begin the conversation?
- [70:11]
B
I encourage you first to do one thing is I tell women all the time, it's very difficult for you to train your husband or to help him because remember, he's been conditioned that coming to you or showing any side of weakness makes him less of a man. It's not you, it's how society has what he has allowed society to define him. So first, don't blame yourself thinking it's something you're doing or not doing. Understand it's a part of the culture. Secondly, I advise every woman who asks me this question, go to my social media or YouTube, better yet, social media and send him a reel of something that I say that may strike a chord with him. This came across my feed. I think you may be interested in this, this is very intriguing. And allow him to follow the rabbit trail. It almost always happens because as men we all long for the same freedom and that's the freedom to be human. The freedom to express the things that are wearing us down, that we carry every day seemingly for everyone else when we can just release it and find a new life. And lastly, live from the good in your heart, the desire that you have have. Allow yourself to freely love him. And when he opens up, never impassively dismiss his emotions. Always listen intently as if he was your beloved son or your best friend. Try not to have a lot of input at all. Embrace it the moment. Be thankful that your warrior has opened up and there is a possibility now that not only he could become a better husband and father, but yet your marriage and family will blossom. And then I have another one I can't leave out. Never try to change the weather.
- [72:05]
A
What does that mean?
- [72:07]
B
As caring and well intentioned wives often do, you want to make things better. So when your husband finally opens up, you'll say, hey baby, it's going to be okay. It's not that bad. When clearly it is. That's dismissive. Men are warriors. We want to fight. Sometimes we need to sit with. So for you to say it's sun shining and we clearly see it's raining doesn't help. When my wife comes to me and say, jay, I don't know how you do it, but I'm proud to be married to a man of your strength and character. I couldn't imagine having the weight that you have, how you try to love me and how we argue and even when I'm wrong, you try your best or your job. When you affirm a man that way, now you're feeding into the masculine warrior side of him him while also affirming the nurturing the compassion, the love that he needs from you. And now he becomes more open, like, oh, wait a minute. So me opening up is actually increasing her respect for me, is actually making me appear stronger. Women never forget you have a great influence. Boys don't fight when people talk about their dad. They fight when they talk about their mothers. When a wife undergirds a man with those type of words, the calming touch, rubbing his scalp when he doesn't expect it, when he takes a nap and he jumps up, you come and put your hands on his shoulders. Hey, lay back down. You had a very long day today and I need you to take this rest in. As a man who lost his mother, I tell you the truth, when Nicole does that to me, she is my replacement. The nurturing for what I miss for my mother.
- [73:52]
A
You know, speaking of moms, we have a lot of them writing in who are worried about the 20 something sons who are failing to launch. You talked about this earlier. What do we need to know about what's actually going on when you see a young man struggling like that?
- [74:15]
B
Well, first thing, when I talk to young men, younger men that age, you understand they don't have mentors. They're in a rough spot because the mentors now are trying to do their own thing and they don't have time to pour into these men, these younger men. So imagine being in a world where everyone says be a man, but you don't have one there faithfully teaching you how to be one. So you have frustration, self doubt, self condemning thoughts. You're discouraged, and more importantly, you're scared. So when you see your son disengaged or staying on the game longer, those are his wins. Going to the store, building something that doesn't make him money, that's something he's just trying to win at. So don't focus on that. Focus on trying to get him involved with men that could really help him become one. If the father is too busy, which happens a lot of times, trying to provide, you have to find an uncle or a cousin or someone to say, can you please pick up Johnny and take him with you to work? I'll pay you. I have men all around my son. I am a man's man. I do this, I teach this. And I know I'm not enough.
- [75:29]
A
You know, Jason, Jason. If you could speak to the 15 year old version of Jason Wilson, what would you tell him?
- [75:39]
B
First thing I would tell him is that you're good enough. When you have so much trauma in your family, especially growing up in my Community. You don't feel you're good enough. You look at society the way you're viewed because of the color of your skin. Your mother checking out, your father not there. I see little Jason in the field across from my home by himself, playing baseball by himself. Hit the ball. Go get the ball. Hit the ball. Go get the ball. And I would tell him, you're good enough. And believe it or not, your parents love you. One of them is wounded with so much trauma that she can't release it. And the other one thinks his worth is in his work and he doesn't see your value until he becomes an old man stricken with Parkinson's disease and now he's available and you two reconcile. So I would tell him, you're worth everything. You're valuable. And you can cry. Because so many times in my life as a young boy experiencing the loss of friends. When I was in eighth grade, my friend Kelly. Kelly got shot in the head by a gun that one of our classmates had. He was just passing it to another classmate and the gun went off and shot Kelly. We didn't have therapists, we didn't have counselors. We had to work through that ourselves. I never cried, and as a result, I started crying the wrong way. When I became a teenager, my grades plummeted. I became angry at my mom, and she's the main person there, and I couldn't release it. So I would tell them, you can cry. Be human. And lastly, don't conform to the ways of this world. Excuse me. Be you live from the good in your heart, Chase. If not, it's going to lead you in areas where you're to going to put your life at risk. Almost died three times trying to be something my heart was too big for. Like Tupac said, I wasn't a killer, but don't push me. And I tried to wear the suit of a thug, and I made an acronym for it after becoming a mature man. That thug is a traumatized human unable to grieve. And that's all I was. And I fit in and had guns to my head before mail. And I probably wouldn't be here if not for the grace of God. I would tell Jason, don't try to fit in. Follow God. Follow your calling. You're unique. Don't conform. And then you'll truly carve out your way. And in the end, Jason, you'll heal. You'll find freedom. Your father, you'll finally hear at the age of 37 that he loves you. And you'll finally get the Affection from your mother that you longed for. Young. When she finally gets dementia and can forget all the trauma she's been through, it wasn't until my mother lost her mind that she could actually experience life.
- [79:07]
A
Life.
- [79:08]
B
Because she could no longer remember the trauma. So I tell him to be hopeful, become comprehensive.
- [79:19]
A
I love you, Jason.
- [79:21]
B
Love you, too. And I mean that.
- [79:22]
A
I really do. And I think that acronym for thug. I think that there's more people than not who are traumatized humans, unable to grieve, grieve walking around. And if you look at another person like that, you can see them with a whole lot of compassion. Because I think when you feel unseen or invisible or scared in life, you forget who you are and the kindness that's actually in your heart. Like, I am convinced that what's missing for most people is not the ability to change or to change your life. It's the hope that anything's gonna matter. That despair and the unexpressed grief about all the things that you've experienced or haven't experienced is what keeps you from doing what you know in your heart you'd like to do, even if it's just saying to yourself, I don't want to feel like this anymore. I have to make some changes. And so I cannot thank you enough. I am grateful for you, for the work that you do, for how much you poured into us, and I am grateful for the difference that it's going to make in the men and the young men and the boys that listen to this, and for the women who care about them enough to share this with them.
- [81:08]
B
I'm again honored to be here. I love you. I don't throw that around loosely. I thank you for inspiring me on many days. You have no idea. I thank you for gracefully pushing me from the smallest things. Like when I asked you for an endorsement for my first book. Book? You told me as an exercise. I want you to write it because I don't think you know who you are, Jason. And then when I wrote it, of course, you had to make it fit what you said, but that even bigger. Yeah, that. That. That stuck with me. Mel, oftentimes, you know, you're helping so many people that you miss the man in the mirror. And I want to thank you for reminding me who I was in that moment. And I appreciate you.
- [81:50]
A
Well, I'm gonna remind you of who you are right now, which is you're the man the moment demands. Thank you.
- [81:58]
B
Thank you very much.
- [82:00]
A
Whew.
- [82:00]
B
Yeah.
- [82:01]
A
Oh, my gosh. Mr. Jason Wilson. Wow.
- [82:07]
B
You gotta give Me a hug, man.
- [82:08]
A
I will give you a hug. And before I get out of this chair, I also wanna say to you, thank you for making the time to listen to this life altering conversation. Thank you for taking the time to share this with the men in your life that you care about. Everybody needs some Jason Wilson in their life. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And. And absolutely everything that Jason just validated or taught you or opened your eyes and your heart to it will help you create a better life. And you and the men that you care about, you deserve it. Alrighty. I gotta go forward this to about 15,000 people that I love in terms of. Seriously, I've gotta go forward this conversation to 25. Five men in my life. And so I'm going to talk to you in a few days. I'm going to be waiting for you in the very next episode, the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. Oh, will you save this? You. You gotta like, pipe down over there. I know that you're full of wisdom.
- [83:27]
B
I got it. I'm gonna just hold it. Yeah, I just wanna.
- [83:29]
A
Jason is. Is sharing the W. They should have called you Jason Wisom, not Jason Wilson. What did I do?
- [83:36]
B
You had said, all right, Jason, don't F this up. And I'm like, mel, thanks for giving me extra pressure. The ma. I read the whole line. Cause my girl, she told me you guys edit, so I'm all good. All right, good. I don't know why I was holding my breath. So it's not just me.
- [83:58]
A
For 22 years, Jason has been mentoring boys and men at the Cave Adult. Did I say that right? Or maybe you've seen the award winning documentary on ESPN's 30 for 30. Is it 30 for 30 or 30 by 30? Wait a minute. You're like spitting poetry every time you're talking. I'm like, say that again. But then I don't want to interrupt you. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jason Nelson. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode, SiriusXM podcasts this segment is brought to you by RXBar, the proud sponsor of no BS because they get rid of the bad stuff. Do you ever get tired of all the protein bars out there that seem good for you, but then you look at the back and the list of ingredients is like stuff you'd see on a science test? Yeah, I'm done with that too. I've been eating RXBARs ever since they first hit the market 13 years ago because there's nothing out there like them. RXBAR is all about simple ingredients. Dates, egg whites, cashews, almonds, chocolate, cocoa, natural flavors, sea salt. I can pronounce all of those and so can you. There's no hidden ingredients that sound like you need a PhD in molecular biology to understand them. So whether you're going for a hike or you're working a long day in the office, or you have a huge drive that you need to take, RXBar offers a wide range of options to Support your needs. RXBar is your reminder. Saying no isn't just a good idea. It's non negotiable. Let's talk about cutting the BS from your life by setting boundaries. If you feel overwhelmed, if your to do list is endless, if you're constantly to trying, drained, resentful, or you're stretched so thin, I need you to hear this. The problem isn't you. The problem is you're not saying no enough in your life. Now here's what I want you to know. You are allowed to say no. No explanation, no apology, no guilt. Just no. No is a complete sentence. And if somebody doesn't like hearing your no, let them. That's the first part of the let them thing. Let them be disappointed. Let them be confused. Let them think you're selfish. Let them think whatever they want. And you want to know why? Because you're not responsible for how someone else reacts to your boundary. So you're going to have to learn to get comfortable with people being disappointed or frustrated. When you say no and you set that boundary, their discomfort is not your responsibility. Their reaction is not your job to manage. Saying no, it doesn't make you difficult, it makes you decisive. Saying no isn't selfish, it's necessary. It protects your time, it protects your energy, and most importantly, it protects you from overextending yourself and trying to manage everybody else. So the next time you feel that pressure to say yes, when your gut is like no, remember this. Say no, then pause and let them. Let them feel however they feel you have permission to step back and stop over explaining your reasons. No matter what they say or how they react. Remember let them. And then I want you to remember the second part of the let them theory. Say let me. What I love about Let me is that it immediately shows you what you can control. Let me shifts the focus right back to where it belongs. Belongs onto you. Let me set a boundary clearly and firmly. Let me say no. Let me cancel these plans because I just don't have it in me today. Let me focus on what I can control. You can control your attitude, your behavior, your values, your needs, your desires, and what you want to do in response to what just happened or what's going on around you or the request that somebody just made of you. And here's why this works. When you start clearly communicating your boundaries and you actually stick to them, something amazing happens. You build trust with yourself. Every no strengthens your ability to prioritize your needs without guilt and hesitation. It's how you put yourself first instead of constantly putting yourself last. So right now, I want you to think of one area of your life where you're constantly overextending yourself and you've been holding back from saying no. Maybe this is happening at work. Maybe it happens all the time with your family. Maybe there's a friendship where you're constantly saying yes to things you don't want to be doing. Just pick one thing. And now I challenge you to say no clearly and decisively today. Let them have their reaction. Let them misunderstand you. Let them judge. Let them. But you, you stay firm. See, they're the ones that can deal with their reaction and their expectations and their disappointment. That's not your job to manage. Your job is to protect your peace and to protect your time and to protect yourself from all of this stuff you've been saying yes to that you now are gonna say no to. That's what a boundary sounds like. No. Then let them. And you. You go live your life free from the BS. Thanks again to our segment sponsor, RXBar. RXBar lets me get the protein and fiber I need and it lets me get on with my day quickly when I don't have the time to sit down for a full meal. As the proud sponsor of no BS, RXBar empowers people to reject the unnecessary and absurd intrusions in their lives. They offer a range of protein bar options from their original 12 gram protein bars to the many to support different lifestyle needs and snack occasions. I personally love the chocolate sea salt peanut butter and strawberry flavors, it's just about impossible to choose a favorite. That's a testament to the taste, the quality of the ingredients, and how amazing I feel after a few bites. And I just know you're gonna love them too. And just like RXBar keeps it simple. No BS so can you use code MEL on RXBar.com for 25% off? RXBar proud sponsor of no BS. Subject to full terms and conditions and a change valid until September 30, 2025, and may not be combined with other offers. See rxbar.com for full details and limitations.
- [91:00]
B
Did you know?
- [91:01]
A
39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway.
- [91:10]
B
As a parent, you can't always be.
- [91:12]
A
In the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving Report reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety.
- [91:23]
B
Plus, with weekly updates, you can track.
- [91:24]
A
Their progress over time. Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast.