Podcast Summary: The mindbodygreen Podcast—Episode 633

Title: The psychology of uncertainty, growth & hope | Maya Shankar, Ph.D.
Host: Jason Wachob
Guest: Dr. Maya Shankar, Cognitive Scientist, Author of The Other Side of Change
Date: January 18, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Jason Wachob sits down with Dr. Maya Shankar—renowned cognitive scientist, podcast creator (A Slight Change of Plans), and author—to explore the psychology behind dealing with unexpected change. Together, they discuss how upheaval can act as revelation, why our sense of control is so easily shattered, the science of building resilient identities, and actionable steps for growth and hope when life’s plans go awry. Dr. Shankar draws on scientific research, personal stories, and practical tips to create a toolkit for anyone facing transformative life events.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Change as Revelation: The Story of Olivia

[01:41 – 06:54]

• Story Introduction: Dr. Shankar recounts “Olivia,” a college student who suffered a brainstem stroke leading to Locked-In Syndrome—a state of full consciousness without the ability to move or communicate except through eye movement.
  • “What being locked in revealed to her about who she was and mental states and perspectives that were potentially holding her back.” (Dr. Shankar, [02:46])
• Olivia had been a pathological people pleaser, always seeking approval. Her condition stripped away her ability to curate herself externally and forced radical authenticity.
• She eventually experienced profound self-acceptance and found happiness not through full recovery, but through internal change.
  • “Over time, as she witnesses her care team fall in love with her for who she really is, she has to engage in a kind of self acceptance that she never thought was possible.” (Dr. Shankar, [05:47])

Quote:

“Change can serve as revelation. When a bad thing happens to us, it can feel like a personal apocalypse… but apocalypse comes from the Greek word apokalypsis, which means revelation.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar ([03:12])

2. The Illusion of Control

[06:54 – 10:02]

• Jason and Maya discuss “the illusion of control”—the human tendency to overestimate how much we can direct life’s outcomes.
  • “Most of us would descend into a state of nihilism if we didn’t feel we had control.” (Dr. Shankar, [07:48])
• Dr. Shankar references research showing people are more stressed by uncertainty (50% chance of a shock) than by certain negative outcomes (100% chance).
  • “We are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance.” (Dr. Shankar, [08:19])
• Her goal is to give people a “change survival kit” of practical reframes and tools for when the illusion of control is shattered.

3. Malleability & Identity: Preparing for Change

[10:02 – 15:46]

• Introduces the “end of history illusion”—the belief that who we are now is basically set, even though we’ve changed greatly before.
  • “We are always changing. We are constantly a work in progress.” (Dr. Shankar, [10:33])
• Dr. Shankar shares her lost dream of becoming a concert violinist and, later, failed attempts to start a family. Both experiences were identity-shattering.
• She suggests anchoring identity not to roles or labels, but to the “why” behind them (e.g., valuing emotional connection more than being a violinist itself).
• This reframing builds resilience when life throws curveballs.
  • “If you can identify your why… it can be a soft landing for people when life makes other plans.” (Dr. Shankar, [14:58])

4. Belief Systems: The Role of Faith, Spirituality, and Meaning-Making

[15:46 – 19:58]

• Jason notes that faith or spirituality often helps people through upheaval. Maya shares her agnostic perspective and focus on secular psychological tools.
• Sometimes, the desire to find meaning can backfire; rigid “everything happens for a reason” beliefs can lead to unhealthy self-blame (as in the story of a woman who believed a tragedy was cosmic punishment).
  • “Sometimes things happen just because… There’s no deeper meaning in those things, and it’s just about how you carve your path moving forward.” (Dr. Shankar, [18:41])

5. First Steps After Upheaval: Navigating Denial & Meaning

[20:26 – 25:38]

• Denial can be adaptive in the short term; it’s a “psychological immune response” that buffers shock.
• For moving forward, Dr. Shankar recommends a “self-affirmation exercise”: list out loved and valued aspects of yourself or your life not threatened by the current crisis.
  • “Write down all of the identities that you value… that are not threatened by the change.” (Dr. Shankar, [21:10])
• She shares a raw personal anecdote about experiencing this during her second miscarriage, and how gratitude exercises (done reluctantly at first) helped her see she was still whole.
  • “Did I go to bed feeling more intact? Absolutely.” (Dr. Shankar, [25:16])

6. Examining and Revising Core Beliefs

[26:29 – 30:34]

• Our beliefs are often inherited and unexamined. Major change gives us a chance to question beliefs that may be false or limiting.
  • “Our beliefs are not these sacred, immutable truths. They are flimsy entities that don’t always have a strong basis.” (Dr. Shankar, [29:16])
• Powerful story of Ingrid, a woman who loses her memory and reclaims previously shamed aspects of her heritage before the “shame lens” returns.

7. Guiding Questions for Self-Reflection

[31:14 – 36:34]

• Maya encourages listeners to regularly ask:
  • “How am I defining my self-identity?”
  • “Can I build a more robust, expansive identity?”
  • “Which beliefs and values am I carrying that may need revisiting?”
• Introduces the three “possible selves”: hoped-for, feared, and expected selves.
  • After major change, feared selves often dominate; we must proactively open our imagination to new hoped-for selves.

Notable Strategy: “Moral Elevation”

• Witnessing others’ moral beauty (selflessness, resilience) makes us believe more is possible for ourselves.
  • “It cracks open our own imagination about what we might be capable of.” (Dr. Shankar, [33:50])
• Reading fiction can serve as an “identity laboratory” for experimenting with new selves.

8. Practical Techniques for Realizing Change

[36:34 – 39:48]

• It’s one thing to imagine new possible selves; motivation and action are the next step.
• Dr. Shankar uses and recommends “temptation bundling”—pairing difficult tasks with immediate rewards and reserving those rewards exclusively for that context.
  • “I was only allowed to eat from the candy bowl when I was in a deep writing session... Over time, you start to look forward to the thing because of the fun treat.” (Dr. Shankar, [38:26])

Quote:

“Our long-term goals… they don't deliver super immediate rewards. That’s why these smaller treats can be really effective.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar ([39:21])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Change as Apocalypse and Revelation:

  “Apocalypse comes from the Greek word apokalypsis, which means revelation … change can upend us, but it can also reveal things to us.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([03:12])

• On Uncertainty:

  “We are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([08:19])

• On Identity:

  “Just because I lost the violin didn’t mean I lost what led me to love it in the first place.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([13:17])

• On Denial:

  “Denial is nature's way of giving us only as much as we can handle in any given moment.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([21:03])

• On Moral Elevation:

  “It cracks open our own imagination about what we might be capable of.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([33:50])

• On Temptation Bundling:

  “Importantly, you have to deny yourself access to the immediately rewarding activity in every other context so that it becomes uniquely paired with the hard activity.”
  — Dr. Maya Shankar ([38:16])

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 01:41 | Introduction of Olivia’s story, change as revelation | | 06:54 | The illusion of control discussion | | 10:25 | Daily practice and the “end of history illusion” | | 11:52 | How malleable is identity over time? | | 15:46 | Role of faith/spirituality in navigating upheaval | | 20:26 | Immediate strategies after upheaval | | 26:29 | Revisiting beliefs and childhood conditioning | | 31:14 | Self-reflection, possible selves, and moral elevation| | 38:03 | Temptation bundling technique explained |

Closing Takeaways

• Change, while painful, can be revealing and transformative if we are open to reevaluating our identities, beliefs, and values.
• Practical strategies—like self-affirmation, embracing denial in the short term, and “temptation bundling”—offer hope and agency amid upheaval.
• Proactively reflecting on possible selves, seeking inspiration in moral elevation and fiction, and combining motivation science with lived wisdom, we can adapt and even flourish when life makes other plans.

The Other Side of Change by Dr. Maya Shankar is discussed throughout as a resource for navigating these transitions.
“Don’t wait for the bad thing to happen—reflect on your identity, beliefs, and possible selves now.”
— Dr. Maya Shankar ([32:30])