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The mindbodygreen Podcast
658: The most efficient path to better cardio | sports scientist Fraser Thurlow, Ph.D.
00:53:13
Thurlow is a high-performance coach, researcher, and lecturer with over a decade of experience helping people improve their fitness and performance. He holds a PhD in Human Performance, has published extensively on training, and has lectured at leading Australian universities in sport and exercise science. His work focuses on translating science into practical, evidence-based strategies that improve health, fitness, and athletic performance.
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the mindbodygreen Podcast. I'm Jason Wakab, Founder and Co CEO of mindbuddygreen and your host. This podcast is presented by Walden University. Now is the time to make a real change in your life, career and community. For over 50 years, Walden University has helped working adults turn ambition into action through flexible distance learning. With over 100 degrees and certificates, Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals. You'll gain hands on skills from their expert faculty members who are scholars and practitioners with real world experience to share. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu. Edu and take that final step. Walden University Set a Course for Change Certified to operate by Chev this podcast is presented by Function Health. I'm always looking for ways to perform at a higher level, whether that's mentally at work or physically during workouts. Function Health is how I collect real data about what's happening internally. That way I can make smarter decisions around training, recovery and sleep. Check your health the way I do. Function provides 160 plus lab tests for $1 a day and member pricing on MRI and CT scans. Join functionhealth.com mindbodygreen or use gift code mindbodygreen25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. This podcast is sponsored by Berkeley Life. Low nitric oxide is one of the least talked about reasons people feel tired as they age people and it's fixable. Berkeley Life Nitric oxide support is clinically proven to raise your levels. Take it for better energy, circulation and performance. Get your first month for only $10 by visiting B E R K E l e y life.comMBG this podcast is sponsored by Kohler Health. We track our steps, sleep and workouts, but some of the most valuable health signals happen in the bathroom, where they get flushed away. Kohler's Dakota fits discreetly onto your toilet and captures biometric signals to provide insights into hydration, gut health and more. That's data that our other wearables can't deliver. The info is securely delivered to the Kohler Health app. Learn more@kohlerhealth.com, use code MBG1year for a free one year app membership with your Dakota purchase. What if you could meaningfully improve your VO2 max, one of the strongest predictors of longevity, in just 20 second sprints three times a week? Dr. Fraser Thurlow is an exercise physiologist whose research focuses on Cardiovascular Fitness and VO2 Max training, and he's here to cut through the Noise on what actually works. In today's show, we break down the gold standard for cardiovascular fitness and why it's so brutally effective. But Thurlow also makes the case for something far more accessible, sprint interval training. We dig into the counterintuitive finding that more sprint reps actually produce less improvement. We talk through how and when to track heart rate versus perceived exertion and unpack what fitness wearables are getting right and wrong when it comes to your VO2 max. I came away with a lot of great insights from this one and I know you'll love it. So if I want to increase my VO2 max, what should I do?
- [03:24]
B
So, firstly, the most important thing is consistent training. Now, that's a boring response, but accumulating consistent training over weeks, months and years is going to be the leading factor. And if we take a minute to consider what elite endurance athletes do, they accumulate large volumes of training again over weeks, months and years. That leads to really large improvements in VO2 max. And a lot of that volume will be to moderate intensities with a sprinkling of high intensity work in there as well. But for the majority of the population, we don't have 20, 30, 40 hours a week to dedicate towards training. Most people want to perform their Cardio Training in 30 to 40 minutes, two to three times per week. So I needed to mention that because otherwise I'll probably get a few endurance coaches coming out, coming at me. So the next, the next thing, the next important factor is utilizing a range of different intensities and durations, and I'm a big advocate for that. Again, a lot of coaches and a lot of people will want to sit in one fence, so they'll say we just want to do high intensity interval training or you should just do zone two work or just threshold work. Well, why don't we have both? Utilizing a different. A range of different intensities and durations will lead to a range of adaptations that all work together to ultimately improve VO2 max. And then when I'm talking about different intensity, different durations, well, there's a range of different training methods that we can use. And it can be confusing because there is a lot of different conditioning methods out there, ranging from high intensity interval training work. And within that, we have sprint interval training, repeated sprint training, short intervals, long high intensity intervals, and then we have low and moderate intensity work like zone 2 training, threshold and tempo. And then we even have things like resistance style, cardiovascular circuits, fartlek training. So there's many different methods we can use to improve VO2 max. And people love comparing these different methods, just like people love comparing who their favorite athlete is or what's their favorite movie. And that's what research often does. They'll compare different training methods. Now, like I said, the best approach is to use a range of these different training methods. But research goes and compares different methods. And a famous study from 2007 is by a physiologist called Jan Hogart and his colleagues. Now he's Norwegian. And that compared long high intensity interval work, so 4 times 4 minute efforts versus some short high intensity interval work, which is 15 second efforts with 15 second rest and then some lower and moderate intensity work. So more continuous training. And what he found was that the best method to improve VO2 max, performing two sessions per week over about six weeks was the long high intensity interval work. So four times four minute intervals with three minutes of active rest. And very close second was the short high intensity interval work, so 15 second work with 15 second rest. And not only did they lead to superior improvements in VO2 max, but they were also the most time efficient training methods. So at the top of the tree, those long high intensity intervals, 4 times 4, followed by some short high intensity intervals and threshold work closely behind it, are all very effective methods, but even better when combined with lower and moderate intensity work as well.
- [07:13]
A
So a lot to unpack there. So let's start with the Norwegian protocol. So to summarize, it's four minutes max effort exertion, then rest for three and you repeat that four times and I'm in pretty good shape. And I'm just, I just can't do it like I, I, it's just not for me. I, I, I, it's, I struggle with it and I don't think I'm alone there. However, my interest has piqued with the 15 second all out plus 15 second rest. How many reps on that?
- [07:49]
B
Yeah, well, I understand why you find the longer interval work tough. It is grueling because it should be performed above 90% of heart rate max. And that's tough. You know, if we're talking about rpe, that's a scale of hard to maximal. Whereas the short interval work, you obviously get more frequent rest periods and particularly people with lower fitness levels. Not saying that you are, but myself included, people who are also bigger will find that more sporadic interval work a little bit easier. And in terms of the number of reps you should be performing that in any high intensity interval training work, quality is more important than quantity. A lot of people Will chase volume. Thinking back to the endurance, elite endurance athletes who accumulate, you know, 100, 200 kilometers of volume per week in their training. And that's where they get those ideas from. But when it comes to high intensity interval training work, quality is much more important than quantity. So we're talking, you know, two sets of six or 12, 15 second events with 15 second rest is a really effective dose that's doable.
- [08:58]
A
If I'm listening, like 12 reps of 15, it's like I, I can do that versus the four by four. It's so. Well, there are two things I think most people struggle with, and I'm speaking from personal experience. One is actually, as I've gotten better trained, it's harder for me to get to 90% heart rate. Like, I just can't get there. Like, I will, and I want to talk about heart rate versus exertion. So if I, if I get started, I do my warmup and I come out of the gate and I'm going for it, I will, I will feel max exertion before my heart rate gets even close to 90%. Like I'm lucky if I get to 70%. It takes me longer to get my heart rate up as I've become more fit versus, for example, one day, you know, it sticks out. I was at Disney with my kids and the room wasn't cool, the mattress wasn't cool, ate too much for dinner, didn't get enough of sleep, and then I went to row in the morning and I was like in zone four and five the whole time.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, many things do impact your heart rate from a, from a, from day to day and individual to individual.
- [10:07]
A
But should we be more focused on exertion or heart rate? Cause heart rate's also lagging. What's your view there? Because if I'm doing the four by four, I, I crush myself for four minutes, but my heart rate's not there. And then I rest. Then I go again.
- [10:21]
B
Yeah, again. You know, heart rate will fluctuate on things like how fatigued you are, whether you're performing intervals, whether you're training in the heat, caffeine, sleep. So lots of things do impact heart rate and that can fluctuate from, you know, 5 to 15 beats per minute from day to day in terms of whether you should use heart rate or perceived exertion. For my clients, I prescribe them both. So I will always set a heart rate target, but also an RPE target at the same time so they can adjust base the session based on how they're feeling and it also depends on what training method you're using. So anything over probably sort of two to three minute intervals. I would recommend firstly monitoring your heart rate, but anything less than that, heart rate will be more variable because you're constantly stopping and starting. And particularly with, you know, we use these devices, watches and so on, and they're not completely accurate, so they can skip beats and that affects those things as well.
- [11:22]
A
So what do you like in terms of devices for monitoring heart rate at the moment?
- [11:29]
B
Well, by far the best way to monitor heart rate is to have the heart rate strap on on your chest. Yeah. And from brand to brand it won't differ much. But certainly if you're more serious about training, I definitely recommend getting a heart rate strap and the polar heart rate straps, I know it, at least in Australia they're the go to brand the if you're just wearing a watch. Yeah. Be conscious that it might skip beats and it will be slightly less accurate. But for the everyday person that's still completely fine.
- [12:00]
A
And for the wrist wearables, which one do you like at the moment? I'm curious.
- [12:05]
B
Yeah, I use a Garmin. I also have a whoop on so I use that. That's nice and easy. I haven't tried any of the others. But in terms of VO2 max, because these wearables will give you your estimated VO2 max as well and they can be off by 5 to 15% compared to lab based methods. So for someone with a VO2 max of 67, say it often says around 60 to 61. For someone with a VO2 max in the mid-50s, it will say a little bit lower as well, might say about 50. So it's actually underestimating your VO2 max. But then for someone with a low VO2 max, say 34, it often it's the other way around. So your VO2 max will be slightly higher. So it might be 37.
- [12:53]
A
So in terms of the wrist wearables, which one do you find personally more accurate as it relates to VO2?
- [12:59]
B
Again, they're all quite similar. There's only, you know, small to minor differences between them. I like the Garmin.
- [13:06]
A
I'm hearing more and more of that. And something I've noticed with whoop, it seems like I'm not inside their algorithm, but their estimation is strictly based on zone time, not actually VO2 max effort.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah, for sure. Well, yesterday I went out and I performed five maximal 30 second hill sprints and the key with those. So sprint interval training is a really interesting one. You only need 20 minutes of sprint interval training per week to increase your VO2 max by substantial magnitudes as well. So you can improve for the everyday person by about 10 to 12%. Two studies have shown that. And you only need at times only two to three reps as well.
- [13:52]
A
Wow.
- [13:53]
B
Yeah. So two reps of 20 second efforts performed three times per week for six weeks improved VO2 max by 10%. And that was across two different studies. And actually. So that was individual studies. And then there was a great meta analysis. And this meta analysis actually inspired my PhD. This was by Vollard and colleagues back in 2017. And they looked at 34 training studies on VO2 max. Now, the exclusion criteria for that was you couldn't have a VO2 max of higher than 55. So that basically excluded, you know, elite athletes, really fit people. But most people in these studies had a VO2 max of around 30s to 40s. So they were still fit, just your everyday person. And across these studies showed that sprint interval training improved VO2 max by 7.8%, which is considerable. Probably not as much as those 4 times 4 and maybe even short high intensity intervals like we were talking about earlier, but still a large magnitude. But the really interesting point was the more repetitions they did, the lower improvements in their VO2 max that they attained.
- [15:07]
A
Wow. So, okay, let's pause there. That's interesting because I think like most people, we're all short on time. And if you say I have to do a Norwegian protocol once a week or maybe twice a week, my, my other struggle with that is it's a, it's a big bet on one day and you get to like, if you're, if you're a grown up, grown up adult, you know, you've got a family, you've got work, like sometimes you just, you don't have it. There's, there's not a lot in the bag for that, for that maximum effort. And so I struggle with that. But if you're telling me and we're all short on time, I can do sprint interval training. And the more I do, the diminishing returns are, are real. And you're saying two reps of 22nd max effort, like that's all we need to do. Okay, I'm all, Everyone is listening right now. Like, I can do that. Find me a hill, a track. Let's talk more about that. This specific study.
- [16:03]
B
Yeah, the most important part of that is that it's maximal. Right. So we're not going at 80%. We're truly sprinting maximal. And that can be on a bike, could be on an assault bike, could be on a rower. I did a yesterday hill sprints, which is a great way to do it because it's a lower muscular load and less impact than doing normal flat sprints running wise. But yeah, so two to six sprints is a really good effective dose. And we're talking 22 to 6 reps
- [16:30]
A
of 20 second efforts. And what's the rest in between?
- [16:33]
B
So 20 to 30 second efforts, I'd recommend starting with 20 seconds, progressing over to 30 seconds over the course of about 4 weeks and the rest is 3 to 4 minutes. And that rest can be like just an easy pedal, an easy jog, or, or it can be completely stationary. The most important thing is that whatever the rest is, it doesn't impact the intensity that you can perform the sprint. So the sprint really needs to be maximal.
- [17:02]
A
So essentially more rest, cause there's more effort versus the rub with the 15 second reps at volume is essentially you get yourself going and you're, you're resting, but not really. Cause then you gotta go again and then you get a re and you're not really resting.
- [17:17]
B
So they both improve VO2 max, but they do it in different ways. So longer interval work or even though short intervals like you were talking about, that sustains, that's a sustained cardiovascular demand. So you know you're reaching 90% of heart rate max and above for 8, 10, 12, 16 minutes per session. Whereas during sprint interval training your heart rate will barely reach zone four, let alone zone five. But it's a rapid oxygen demand, it's a high metabolic stress and it's a rapid depletion of glycolysis glycogen that causes long term changes in mitochondria and blood volume that leads to Greater increases in VO2 max over time. And there was actually another study, so they wanted to see whether one sprint was enough. They show that two sprints could improve VO2 max by 10 to 12%. Could one sprint do it? And unfortunately there were no substantial changes. But that's just one study, so there might need to be more research on that.
- [18:21]
A
So that's incredible because I think it solves the time issue for a lot of people and also pick your poison, so to speak. You could do an assault bike, you could row, you could run running if you haven't ran. And all of a sudden if you're, you know, 50 years old and want to start sprinting, that's a recipe for an Achilles tear or something, you know. But pick low impact have at it. Rowing. I love rowing. I can do that. I'm not going to get hurt.
- [18:45]
B
Yeah, that's exactly right. And the other thing you can do, you know, a lot of people like doing resistance training and something else that's brilliant for longevity. And you can just put it 10 minutes on the end of your resistance training session in the gym, right. And it won't interfere with your strength and muscular gains because it's, if anything, it actually complements. Because it's anaerobic work. It's very anaerobic work. You develop power from it as well and sprint performance. So actually complements your gym work and you can do it at the end of a gym session. But like I was saying earlier, if you really want to optimize your VO2 max, the best way to do it is to combine these various training methods. So one session a week might be four times four. The other might be the sprint intervals and the other could be zone two work or tempo or threshold running. So we've got a range of these different intensity distributions across the week.
- [19:42]
A
So I love that. So walk us through. Let's say I've got an hour per week and we're going to cut it up into three 20 minute sessions or less. Walk me through that. What would you suggest?
- [19:54]
B
Yeah, firstly, you want to do your high intensity work at the start of the week when you're fresh, because again, quality is really important. So the first session I would do would be a long, high intensity interval training session, like the 4 times 4 or 6 times 3 minute efforts, 8 times 2 minute efforts, all with shorter rest. So the original 4 times 4 protocol uses 3 minutes of active rest and that's great. But if you just do that week after week after week, all year long, you're going to plateau. So you want to manipulate programming variables and this is what a lot of my research has been on to optimize the physiological and the neuromuscular stimulus. So instead of just adding more volume and increasing session time, the better method is to actually reduce the rest period. So go from three minute rest to two and a half minute rest to two minute rest, all while maintaining the same intensity each repetition. So that's one session that could be on the Monday, then on the Wednesday, then that could be like the sprint interval training session. Again, quality is more important than quantity. And then potentially on the Friday, another session could be probably one something that's a little bit lower intensity, like tempo work, which is performed between 75 to 85% of your heart rate max and that could be 3 times 6 to 8 minute tempo runs with 2 minute walk progress between each.
- [21:22]
A
And what about something I do is I get bored and so oftentimes I'll just wing it. And I've got, I usually do three days a week for resistance training, less than 30 minutes. Usually I focus on higher reps machines. I, I don't want to get injured, I don't have ego anymore. So I'll just do super sets. I'll start at like 20 reps, then 15 and 10, then maybe, maybe a four set if I'm feeling it. And then three days a week rowing. I love that it's low impact. I can get the heart rate going, but it sounds like I can just layer on the rowing if I'm really pressed for time because many people are and they've got three days a week for everything. You can just layer this on an extra 10 minutes of your resistance training workout and same. That's what I'm hearing.
- [22:09]
B
That's exactly right. That's the real benefits of high intensity interval training. Not discounting the benefits of lower and moderate intensity work because you do get, you know, a lot of great adaptations and improvements from VO2 max from that. But the real advantage of high intensity interval training is that you can do sessions in 10, 20, maximum 30 minutes. And that's across all these different high intensity methods as well.
- [22:32]
A
And in terms of winging it, there are some days I'll just go for it. I'll do a minute hard and then rest for a minute, then I'm in it hard, then rest for a minute, then I'll just go for a while, then maybe I'll just go hard for 30, rest for a little bit, then maybe go hard for two. I'll just kind of wing it. No plan. I try to use the heart rate zones directionally. Other days I'll just go for a sprint, let's see what I can do the 2k in and then I'll kind of back off and just do like some zone two. And so that, that approach I think has worked where I don't have a plan other than I got 20 minutes. Let's have at it, let's see what happens. And I'm hearing like my, my no plan game plan is an effective training method. As long as I'm getting variability, that's correct.
- [23:17]
B
It's probably more sustainable as well. Although, you know, I'm a high performance coach, so I am, you know, a researcher in sports science. So I try to make training as precise as possible. So I'm probably there in the opposite field, really, but I know exactly what you mean. As long as you're training across these mix intensities and durations, and also thinking about ways that you can increase the stimulus from the session by manipulating programming variables in small ways. So like I said, small changes in rest. Instead of always doing just two minutes of work with two minutes of rest, do that for two weeks and the next week drop the rest down to one and a half minutes. And that's probably going to increase the physiological stimulus and stop you plateauing in the long term.
- [24:06]
A
Interesting. So what about during our regular day? If I'm short on gym time, is there anything I can do in my routine? I'm thinking, you know, stairs, I'm thinking burpees in the office, like what are things, you know, quote unquote, exercise, snacks, you're a busy guy. That I can just get something done where there's some benefit. What, anything come to mind?
- [24:31]
B
I think even, you know, in the office space or if you're working from home, instead of just going for a walk, it's actually better to do 20 bodyweight squats. Because your low body musculature, you know, your quads and your hamstrings and your glutes, these huge muscles, they pull glucose in and absorb and utilize those glucose. So that's going to be better for, you know, maintaining body composition, calories, maintaining health. Better than just going for, you know, a 10 minute walk. You might want to do that as well. But doing a range of these different lower body exercises will be beneficial. Squats, lunges, you know, you might do a few wall push ups. Simple exercises that you can do in enclosed environment will have really beneficial effects like that.
- [25:20]
A
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- [25:23]
B
Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really.
- [25:27]
A
I hit 200 on the scratcher.
- [25:28]
B
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- [25:31]
A
No.
- [25:31]
B
How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.
- [25:36]
A
Okay, that's fair.
- [25:37]
B
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- [25:41]
A
Not like the lottery at all, actually.
- [25:43]
B
Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. Fees may apply.
- [25:50]
A
This podcast is sponsored by the North Face. At the North Face, it's never just a hike. It's a cure for restless mind syndrome. The socially acceptable version of running away from home. The argument your feet make with gravity. Out here, it's up to you. Unearth a New kind of trail, wide open and yours to define. The north Face Hike Collection will keep you cool, dry and comfortable every step of the way. Shop the hike collection online or find a store@thenorthface.com what do you do when you travel? You mean on the plane or just in general? Plane, hotel. A lot of hotels don't have great gyms. You know, flights can be long. What's your general advice? You know, we're, we're. Summer travel season is upon us. So.
- [26:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, if, if you don't have access to a gym, it's finding ways to increase the stimulus through just basic body weight exercises. So that could be. Instead of just doing. If you find just doing 20 bodyweight squats really boring and really easy, then do 10 single leg squats or do 10 Bulgarian split squats where your rear foot is elevated on the chair. So that's going to increase the difficulty and the stimulus of the exercise. You know, same for push ups. If you find push ups easy all of a sudden, if you elevate your feet on a chair, then you go from using about 60% of your body weight to using 90 to 100% of your body weight. Now I'm 105 kilos. So that's essentially like me doing 100 kilo bench press. So that can still provide a really effective stimulus. And then also like you mentioned, super setting exercises. So using less rest between exercises to increase that load.
- [27:32]
A
How effective is that? That's a method. Again, speaking from personal experience, I am like Mr. Short on time. And I also get upset when I go to the gym and it's too crowded and I don't like where I just want to go. So I do this. I'm a big fan of supersets. Like I'll just jump in, I'll do 20 reps. At low, I'm feeling fatigue. Like I'm at the end. Like I'm starting to feel a little bit of that muscle working. And then I will increase the weight immediately, lower the reps, increase the weight weight immediately, like no rest. And then I move on and my heart rate starts to go up a little bit. I'm not getting in zones two or three, but it's starting to get zone one. Maybe it touches on two. How effective is that method of training as it relates to resistance training? People are short on time but also want to experience results.
- [28:18]
B
Yeah. So it depends how you're doing those supersets. If you're super setting the same muscle group, what that's going to be doing is Fatiguing that muscle more, and that's actually has a negative effect because then it can lift less load. So you're getting your improvements in strength and muscle long term will be, will be less. A better way to do it is to subset opposing muscle groups. So for example, a push up with a running exercise or a shoulder press with a calf raise. When I'm programming for clients, I'll often do that in groups of two or three. So it could be, you know, dumbbell bench press with a split squat with a calf raise. So it's still really time efficient because you're doing those exercises back to back to back. But then you're still getting two to three minutes rest before you go back to the first exercise. And that's allowing you to lift heavier loads, which is increasing mechanical tension and providing progressive overload. And that's the number one factor for increasing strength and hypertrophy. So rest is actually really important during strength training. If you want to optimize strength and hypertrophy.
- [29:34]
A
It's great advice because technically you're resting the muscle because you're moving on to the next muscle, but you're not resting between sets. You're going from, for example, your, your back straight to your chest and then to your legs, back to your back, back to your. There's no rest in between. So I'm assuming there's probably a little bit benefit of getting the heart rate up as well. Not too high, but slightly elevated.
- [30:00]
B
That's right, yeah. You are getting that benefit at the same time. So it's called, it's called density. So you're increasing your session density, you're getting more work done in a shorter amount of time. You're elevating cardiovascular demand, but you're not reducing the effects on your actual, you know, increasing strength and hypertrophy. So that's a really effective way. The other thing that you can do within those supersets is some mobility work. So a lot of people these days are sitting lots, and a lot of clients come to me and they say, I want to not only increase my strength and look better and improve my physique, but I'm losing my flexibility, my mobility and my movement. So that's when I integrate those exercise snacks, those mobility snacks into those supersets. So it could be, you know, you're pairing a squat with a dumbbell row with a hip flexor stretch.
- [30:54]
A
Interesting. So what do most people come to you for? What are they looking to achieve? What are their pain points?
- [30:59]
B
Yeah, both improving strength and conditioning at the Same time. So really, you know, my knowledge extends across all areas of strength and conditioning and human performance. So, you know, VO2 max is a popular topic at the moment. So clients that want to improve their VO2 max, but at the same time don't want to dedicate hours and hours of training towards it. And they also want to look good and feel good. So integrating both strength training, fitness work and mobility work all into the same training program, structured over multiple weeks and progressing over the long term.
- [31:38]
A
I think most people would sign up for that, myself included. Everyone wants results, but they don't want to spend a ton of time. So there's so much, along with all the good information, there's so much bad information as it relates to VO2 max specifically. What, what do you see online that you just look at and you say, oh God, this is just not correct?
- [31:57]
B
Yeah, the biggest mistakes that people make. One is trying to copy what elite athletes do. So elite athletes are elite for a reason. They've trained for years and years and years. They've built up this great training history and they've got lots of time to dedicate towards training. So yes, take ideas from what they do, but then use it in your own individual context. And most of the time that's reducing the intensity and the volume and the duration of exercise. So, you know, whereas a, an elite endurance runner might do 24 hundreds, you should only do eight to ten. Four hundreds. Or instead of eight, four times four minute efforts, which they probably do, you're only doing four to five. So that's one big mistake. The other is getting the intensity of training wrong. So it's easy sessions that are becoming hard, the hard sessions become easy and it's very, you can easily get that wrong if you start straying outside those intensity zones. So those typical sort of heart rate zones, then you can induce too much fatigue and then that can impact how sustainable your training can be. So that's one error. The next is progressing too quickly and trying to accumulate too much volume too quickly. Again, start small, start gradually. You don't need to. Unless you're training to win the marathon in six months time. You've got years to accumulate this training and build gradually.
- [33:31]
A
So hearing you speak, I, I'm in. I keep on thinking hyrox over and over in terms of what most people are looking to achieve. And they want lean muscle mass and they want to improve their VO2 max and that's high rocks. And then I think of, you know, training and intensity and, and working towards something. I think of high Rocks. And my wife just did a high rocks. And it was an incredible experience she did with her coach Ashley Dimash here in Miami. She loved it, but she's not sure if she's going to do it again. And part of it was, you know, it's a lot of training and it's a. And you know, I don't want to get injured at this point. My wife's 46 and so, and it was so wonderful. I went, I was blown away by all the athletes, the energy, their participation. I'm someone who does not like running at all. I haven't ran. The last time I ran, I think was my last basketball game I played in College in 1998. I just don't like running. But even after this, watching high rocks, I said, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe I'll start running. This looks like fun. It looks like a great goal to work toward. What's your take on. I know it's a big broad question, but training for high rocks and what you've seen. What are some tips?
- [34:36]
B
Yeah, again the majority of training for Hirox should, it shouldn't probably actually be just pure hyrox training. And what I mean by that is doing all the different random sort of circuits, really sort of hard training. A lot of it should be more VO2 max training. The leading factor for performance in Hirox is having really good endurance. So the best endurance athletes are the ones that do well in hyrox. So focusing on again training across different intensities. Hirox is performed in what's called sort of around your lactate threshold. So lactate threshold training can be very effective and that sort of looks like training between about 82 to 90% of your heart rate max could be 3 times 8 minute efforts at that intensity, for example. So some of that work, some VO2 max training like we talked about and then also some pure strength training focusing on increasing your maximal strength and using exercises that will transfer well to the requirements of hyrox. So hyrox requires the sled push. So doing sled pushes in your, in your maximal strength training, it requires walking lunges. So doing some lunges but also some Bulgarian split squats, some normal squats, some single leg squats, working on power as well. So not just focusing on maximal strength but also some explosive power work that will transfer well to the, the wall ball throws. So that could be some jumping work, you know, box jumps, repeat counter movement jumps. So vertical jumps, some, some low ample amplitude power work which are things like pogos. Again Just a really well rounded type of training will then allow you to really perform. When you get to hyrox training, the Horrox competition, rather than just focusing on the specific activities.
- [36:30]
A
The other thing which came to mind for me as someone who's sensitive to their joints is you gotta get some joint work in here. Because the vast majority of these races are in indoor convention centers where you're running on concrete, which is like the most unfriendly. So if you think of endurance, a lot of mobility, a lot of explosiveness and then you layer on I'm doing this on concrete. I just think this is a recipe for joint issues during the race.
- [37:00]
B
Particularly again when most people decide they want to do a hyrox and they've only got a month to prepare for, you know, you really need to give yourself as much time as possible. But some key areas to try to reduce those impact injuries, you know, you'll find that a lot of athletes competing in Hirox will get like tendinopathy, so knee tendinopathy, Achilles tendinopathy. So calf raises will be super important. Both bent knee and straight leg calf raises. If you do find yourself getting tendinopathies, isometrics are brilliant. So an isometric is where you're just holding a static position and they should be long duration holds. So you know, three to four sets of 45 seconds, holding quite a heavy rate, heavy weight, but just in that static position. And that can be integrated within your normal training even if you don't have tendinopathies. Other areas that are commonly missed are the hip flexors, so some lying cable hip flexor work can be important and the adductors as well. So a lot of people when they train in the gym, they'll just do a lot of vertical plane work, whereas you really want to do some sagittal plane work. So that's like side squats, side lunges and some exercises that target pseudo ductus as well.
- [38:16]
A
So something I want to double click on. You mentioned calf raises and I think this is a huge trend with regards to foot strength. And more and more people you see at the gym lifting barefoot while they're wearing socks or they're wearing wide toe zero drop shoes. I'm a huge fan, I love Altra. And just yesterday I was seeing a post about Shay Gilgis Alexander, sga, the NBA player for the Oklahoma City Thunder, who used to have a lot of injuries early in his career and he went all in essentially he, he lives in the gym barefoot, he's got a home gym, he can Walk around with his, you know, barefoot feet. And it's been game changing for his foot strength because he plays, he is so quick and often moves at these really difficult angles. Not like we're all NBA players, but I think of the important, the importance of foot strength, calf strength, as it relates to our ability to perform in the gym, in life, avoid injuries. What's your take about how critical this is as we're about to embark on all this, all this training?
- [39:29]
B
Very critical. And it sets the foundations, doesn't it? From the ground up, literally. I myself used to be a professional athlete. I played. I know most listeners to this podcast are probably American, but I played Australian Rules football, which is the biggest football code in Australia. And so for the past 10 to 15 years, when I've, whenever I've done my gym work, I've tried to do as much as possible barefoot. Now, some exercises will be better to be performed with shoes. For example, when you're squatting, it can be beneficial to have a slight heel raise or doing things like Olympic weightlifting. Again, a strong base with a heel raise is really beneficial. But then other exercises where I'm doing like single leg squats or Romanian deadlifts, any form of deadlifts, really. Some low level plyometric work I'll try to do barefoot. And that's to strengthen those intrinsic foot muscles, which will be key to then helping the entire chain work more efficiently and more effectively. And again, you know, I've always incorporated twice per week some form of calf strengthening in my program as well.
- [40:39]
A
That could be as simple as just heel raises on stairs.
- [40:42]
B
That's right. Yep. That's right. Yep.
- [40:44]
A
How do you think about one time I heard, I haven't gut checked this. If this is true, I want your take. Because we're on our feet all day and we're working our calves all day, you need to do more reps. So like for example, if you're a regular, you know, three by ten in terms of sets for calf raises, maybe it's like 2 by 25 or 2 by 50. Is that true or no?
- [41:04]
B
It's not something that I've heard. The calf muscles do tend to respond well to slightly high volumes and high repetition ranges. In terms of building muscle, Anywhere really, from 3 reps to 30 reps has been shown to be just as effective as long as we're progressively overloading that muscle and we're loading it effectively.
- [41:31]
A
And I'm also thinking more generally not just about the, the calf muscle itself, but the toes, all the intrinsic muscles in The. In the feet. So if I. If I'm really lifting the foot, I'm building toe strength. I'm building the foot. To me, it's much bigger than the aesthetics of having a strong calf. It's the whole foot.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah. And there's some really simple exercises you can do to improve your intrinsic foot strength away from just lifting barefoot in the gym. Things that it's like, very hard to explain, but just scrunching your toes up and pretend like you're trying to drag the carpet towards you. I'm actually doing it right now. So that's strengthening those muscles in the bottom of your feet and between the toes.
- [42:13]
A
You can do that with a towel. Put a towel on the floor, put your barefoot toes and try to scrunch up the towel. Use all your toes. It is the first time I did that, I said, wow, this is harder than I thought.
- [42:25]
B
And it's great to do before training as well. So before you go for a run or before, you know, in your warmup in the gym, that's when you can really implement those sorts of things without, you know, trying to do it all the time.
- [42:36]
A
So what do you think is overrated? What do you think is underrated in terms of everything? We've talked. All things resistance training and cardio.
- [42:44]
B
I think what's overrated is just focusing too much on one specific style of training. And I think that stems from research where research compares these different types of training and we get so much useful information out of that. But in the real world, the best method is to utilize all these different training methods and integrate them into your program so that you're getting a well rounded, robust exposure to these different intensities, durations, volumes of training. You know, so other things that are overrated, you know, a lot of people will spend a lot of time doing things like ice baths, compression garments to try and improve their recovery. But the pillars of recovery are great. Nutrition, sleep, and then making sure that you're. A lot of people want to do a lot of recovery, but what they're recovering from first, you need to train hard and get an adequate stimulus in before focusing on too much on recovery. Let yourself recover naturally instead of spending hours in the ice bath or wearing compression garments and so on.
- [43:45]
A
Agreed. So what do you think's underrated?
- [43:47]
B
Underrated? It comes back to the boring answers. Just consistent accumulation of training over weeks and months and years. Those manipulation of individual programming variables, considering how you can slightly change the structure of a session to maximize its effects, and that's going to improve Both not only its effectiveness, but also its efficiency. I don't think there's been enough research in that area. So that's why, you know, my research is really trying to focus on those little variables that you can change to maximize training effects, particularly when it comes to conditioning. There's a lot of research on strength training which is more straightforward, but conditioning cardiovascular fitness is a little bit more nuanced. I still feel like there's a lot of work that needs to be done in that space.
- [44:34]
A
So let's talk about your research. What are you currently working on or particularly excited about?
- [44:40]
B
Yeah, so I've been. I did my PhD on repeated sprint training, which is very much like sprint interval training and found very similar effects. Quality is more important than quantity. So repeated sprint training is there. There are differences, it's semantics, but short duration, maximal sprints of under 10 seconds interspersed with short recovery times of under 60 seconds. So a typical session is 2 to 3 sets of six 5 to 10 second sprints with 20 to 30 seconds rest. Again, you can perform that. Running or cycling are the two most common methods. And then more recently I've been looking into short high intensity interval training. We talked earlier about those 15 second efforts with 15 second rest. And I've just published a meta analysis which found one of the key findings from that was that actually increasing the duration to 30 seconds with 30 second rest increases VO2 max and speed and power to a greater extent.
- [45:38]
A
So talk about that. So this study, so 30 seconds all out, 30 seconds rest. How many rounds?
- [45:45]
B
Yeah. So you know, depending on the person, that two to three sets of six to 12 reps again is the optimal amount.
- [45:53]
A
So sets and reps. So walk me through this because I'm not usually I think of cardio VO2 max as in reps, not reps and sets. Walk me through this structure.
- [46:06]
B
Yeah. So a set is a group of repetitions or intervals. So you'll do might do one set of six with 30 seconds rest and then you'll have three minutes rest after one set and then you'll do another set of six. And then if you're doing three sets, you do another set of six and you can do. It doesn't have to be the same either. You can do that. You might do one set, 15 second efforts, one set, 30 second efforts and then the next set instead of 30 second effort with 30 second rest, you might use a 30 second effort with a 15 second rest.
- [46:40]
A
Interesting. That's still kind of a brief workout. I'm doing the rough math. That's less than 30 minutes, maybe even
- [46:46]
B
closer to 20 again. Yeah, yeah, that's right. 20 to 30 minute workouts, often even less very popular in team sports. So that's what most basketball teams, AFL teams, rugby teams, soccer teams will be doing because it's very time efficient. And you also get really beneficial neuromuscular and musculoskeletal adaptations from this type of work because it's performed at a higher intensity rather than just that long, continuous, steady state work.
- [47:14]
A
So I could do, I'll do 15 on and off for six rounds, rest and maybe do 30 on and off six rounds, then rest for three minutes and then come back and do 45 or back to 15. You can kind of play with it. But that's essentially the concept.
- [47:29]
B
That's. That's the concept depending on the session aim. So if you want it to be more aerobic, focusing on improving VO2 max, it's. The best strategies are to use either a shorter rest period, like I said, 32nd effort with a 15 second rest or 42nd effort with a 22nd rest. So that's one very effective strategy.
- [47:50]
A
That's still three sets, that's still six rounds or.
- [47:53]
B
No, three sets is probably the, you know, the higher end as well. Two sets will be very, very beneficial.
- [48:00]
A
Two sets of six.
- [48:01]
B
Yep, two sets of six. And it's more effective to do those smaller groups of repetitions than long continuous sets. So it's more effective to do, say three sets of six repetitions than to do one set of 18 repetitions in a row. Because what happens, you're able to perform each repetition at a higher intensity, so each interval at a high intensity, whereas if you do more repetitions in a row, you start to pace yourself and then that's when you lose that real intensity, which is crucial to high intensity interval training. So that's the same as sprint intervals, repeated sprints and longer efforts for VO2 max.
- [48:45]
A
Do I need to do that just once a week? Is that the minimum effective dose or is it twice a week or three times a week if I'm going to follow that protocol?
- [48:52]
B
Yeah. What the research suggests is that. What my research suggests is that now that I think about it, is that two sessions is really beneficial. One is enough to maintain potentially for a certain period, you'll be able to maintain your VO2 max doing one session like that a week for maybe four to six weeks. But two is more optimal and three didn't actually show any greater benefits compared to two sessions per week.
- [49:22]
A
Interesting. Look, I'm here for it. I think most people don't want to do the Norwegian protocol. I love it personally, I'm not there. Well, wait till you hit age 50 and talk to me.
- [49:34]
B
Good point.
- [49:35]
A
So in closing, I know this is a bit of a loaded question, but I'm going to ask it. In your view, what's more important for longevity? VO2 max or muscle?
- [49:44]
B
That's a tough one. I think have both. Ideally, if you could only focus on one. I believe that the evidence suggests that VO2 max is very, very important. But that's not to discount muscle because it is as well. So the best, the best training programs will perform both resistance and cardiovascular exercise.
- [50:05]
A
What goes quicker? So like I'll use the travel scenario. I'm traveling for two weeks. You know, I'm not really getting to the gym. I'm not doing cardio. When I step back into the gym, when I'm home after the end of those two weeks, what's going to be, what's going to suffer the most?
- [50:21]
B
Yeah, so the research shows that you lose 4% of your VO2 max in two weeks and that can be higher. There's other studies that have shown in cyclists that that's higher 7% around there and that's of course taking the average as well. So individuals can, can be less or more and that's due to reductions, quite immediate reductions in plasma volume. If you don't, if you don't work out cardiovascular wise for two to three days, your blood plasma volume will start to decrease and that impacts your VO2 max. After five weeks you'll see a decline in VO2 max of about 10%. Another five weeks, about 10 weeks you'll see a further decline of 10%. So around about 20%. Now this differs a lot from person to person, but about 20% after about 10 weeks. But then after 90 days you actually reach a point where it won't decline anymore. So if you go on a three month euro summer trip, it won't decline any further than those three months. So that's good news.
- [51:25]
A
Bigger than the summer, the summer trip. To me this is a PSA on injury. I think whatever you do, be mindful about how hard and fast you go and how you step to push yourself because the last thing you want is, is to be injured and laid up. Because it's also part two of this question is getting it back. I'm guessing it does.
- [51:48]
B
You know, it comes back, but it takes hard work and that's why I bring myself straight back to the start of this conversation. The most important factor for long term improvement in VO2 max is consistent accumulation of training over weeks, months and years. Because if you do stop, you then have to work back in terms of strength training. Fortunately, that day your strength in your muscle is maintained for longer. It will take about two weeks to reduce strength and muscle mass so you can maintain your strength and muscle mass for longer.
- [52:21]
A
Well, before we embark on our family vacation, I am going to make sure I've got a plan to work on my VO2 max. Whatever it takes.
- [52:31]
B
Yeah, you know the guy. You know the guy to talk to.
- [52:34]
A
I do, I do. Is there anything else you would like to share before we close?
- [52:39]
B
No, no. Nothing off the top of my head. So I really appreciate your time, Jason. Love listening to your podcast and look forward to listening to many more.
- [52:47]
A
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