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The Most Important Medicine
Episode 45: The Domino Effect of Trauma in Parenting with Dr. Robyn Koslowitz
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- [00:00]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Foreign.
- [00:13]
Dr. Amy King
Hey there. I am Dr. Amy King, otherwise known as Dr. Amy, and this podcast is the most important medicine. If you're a physician or healthcare provider, this podcast is for you. This is where we learn about trauma informed medicine and ways to build resilient healthcare organizations. We do this through your stories, through the stories of your own and other professionals and patients. And we listen to each other to transform medicine with compassion and curiosity about what it means to be a trauma informed provider. Every time you join me, I want you to hear practical information and leave with tangible tools that you can use with patients right away. I am so delighted today to have my guest, Dr. Robin Kozlowitz. She is a psychologist and she is out on the east coast, so far from me, but she has her degree in clinical psychology from New York University. She is both a licensed psychologist and a licensed clinical psychologist. She is the host of the Post Traumatic Parenting podcast, which I can't wait to hear about, Robin. And she has a beautiful Instagram community around post traumatic parenting. She is the clinical director of her practice, the center for Psychological Growth in New Jersey, which treats children, adolescents and families using various evidence based practices and they also provide psychological evaluations. She has been featured across several multimedia accounts including Fox, CNN NewsNation, Care.com, parents.com just incredible contributions to our field. And she lives in New Jersey with her husband and she is a mom who just tries to practice all the things we preach. Right, Robin?
- [01:58]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
That's the goal, right?
- [02:01]
Dr. Amy King
Well, welcome. Tell people who you are beyond that bio.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on here. So I am Dr. Robin Kozlowitz. I am a psychologist and yes, I am also a post traumatic parent. I am somebody who experienced trauma in my childhood and adolescence and was not aware of how that would impact my parenting until well into my graduate studies. So post traumatic parenting and post traumatic parents are very often people who are not aware that childhood trauma, adolescent trauma, or even recent adult trauma like the pandemic, is going to impact the way we parent. And I feel like this information was so important to me and I had the tools as a psychologist to do that research. So that any parent who needs to know this, it's my mission in life to make sure they have that information.
- [02:59]
Dr. Amy King
Incredible. And I agree with you as a psychologist who specializes in this field, there's so much that can come up for parents when they're either unaware or have unprocessed or unresolved trauma. Trauma in any capacity. So my hope is that on this podcast we really can help people approach trauma and feel a little bit less scared of it. So maybe let's just start, Robin, with what do you mean by post traumatic parenting?
- [03:30]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So post traumatic parenting for me is about the ways in which trauma impacts our parenting. What I have a lot is many parents will come into the post traumatic parenting classes or they'll come into my practice and, and they'll tell me that, you know, they're trying these parenting approaches out, like they're trying to be gentle, intentional, responsive. And then out of nowhere this mom rage comes up or out of nowhere they can't do it. And maybe historical fears of not being good enough are suddenly coming up, like on steroids, like to another extent. And my, and very often the question is, what is wrong with me? Like, like, why can't I do this approach? Like it, it looks so easy on Instagram, it looks so great on TikTok. Right? And you know what? Maybe it's not. Maybe it's not you, maybe it's your trauma. And very often when we have that conversation, it's so clear that their trauma is that black box. It's that thing between them and parenting according to their values. It's the thing that overrides them. I like to say trauma is an app in our brain that can overwrite what we wanted to do. And very often that will so interfere with our functioning. Because trauma is about survival, right? And parenting is about thriving. It's, it's another whole level, right? We want to do parenting in this self actualized, values based way. It's not about surviving anymore. But trauma keeps us focused on surviving and that makes it very hard.
- [05:03]
Dr. Amy King
I love that distinction that trauma is about survival and parenting is about thriving and being intentional and very values based. Often my audience is healthcare providers or early childhood educators. Early educators, nurse, home visitors. They might be hearing exactly what you just said, which is a parent who's saying, I can't do this. I don't know what's in my way. I've tried gentle parenting, I've tried intentional parenting, I've tried conscious parenting. None of it's working. What's wrong with me? And how would you like those people, those professionals, right, to respond to parents?
- [05:42]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So what I'm hoping for is for the professional to take a step back, right? And say, wait, before we talk about what a bad parent you are, let's first talk about what a good parent you're trying to be. Right? Let's first understand that. Right? And then let's understand what are the scripts in your brain that are stopping you from parenting in accordance with your values. And very often it's a trauma based learning because to a certain extent I say trauma is an app. Trauma is also a very effective teacher. Right. And sometimes what trauma teaches us are lessons that work very well for us before we're parents. Right? So you might have someone with trauma and I call it the dominoes are too close together. Meaning like she has everything in her life has to go according to schedule because she's doing so much. Right. And of course I'm saying she because it's frequently the moms who are reaching out for help. But of course it can be a he, right? It can be a dad or it can be a parenting collaboration. But a lot of times in my practice, it's the moms who do show up to classes or who are the ones who are, you know, feeling bad about themselves when that nurse home visitor is, you know, making those statements and they're feeling just like, I can't do this. So like if you have the dominoes really close together and like, you know, I got to serve dinner by this time so that we can do bedtime by this time because I got to go back to work on my evening job at this time because trauma tells me I need a hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, or will be dead in a ditch of poverty tomorrow. Then those dominoes being close together and you have one strong willed three year old who's just not eating his Mac and cheese and the whole system collapses. Of course you're going to become enraged. Right. And it makes so much sense that before your kids you were able to do that. You could work those long hours. If you're a people pleaser saying yes to a boss who's always giving you last minute project, it's going to, you're going to be able to do that until you have kids. If you dissociate, maybe you, maybe you have drama from your family of origin or an ex partner. Right. And then your way of handling that stress was I dissociate, like numb myself with some like Netflix and I chill. That's great. Until you have a kid who needs your attention and then you need to figure out something else. Right?
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Dr. Amy King
Yeah. Yeah. I love this analogy, Robin. I haven't heard it before. There's lots of ways we talk about trauma and I think analogy is helpful for people. But I love this analogy of the dominoes that are too close together and just tipping one is going to create this cascading Effect. And I think often, at least for the, a lot of, you know, moms that I've worked with very similarly, they have learned as a way of coping with their trauma to be very controlled. Right?
- [08:25]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes.
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Dr. Amy King
And now it's not working anymore.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
We cannot control our children. Right. And that's, I think, one of the biggest things we think we'll be able to Right before we become parents. We think we don't. We're not aware of the level of negotiation it takes to get a three year old to eat their dinner. Especially if you're not being coercive. Right. If you're like, no, I don't want to do. My parents did, where it was like, no dinner and you know, don't dessert unless you finish your dinner. Or I don't want to be putting them in the naughty chair because they didn't eat their peas. Right. Like, but then there's all those other scripts that come in, especially in our social media, like, dominated society where the village is social media. You're having all those influencers, like, talk about how well their kids eat their peas beautifully. And we have to make sure because nutrients are important. And then you have that, you know, intentional parenting person who's like, don't be coercive. You have your own trauma script being saying, I don't want to yell. I don't want to be that mom. I don't want to do it the way my parent did it. I heard the term parenting ventriloquism this morning and I thought that was the most brilliant thing, brilliant thing ever. Like, I don't want to have my mom's voice coming out of my mouth. Totally. Right? So then what? Right? Because you have all those scripts and they're all influencing you, like one after another after another. And like I said, if the dominoes are close together and the three year old's not eating their peas and you're feeling really paralyzed because you're not doing this Right. Another big thing I have is a lot of post traumatic parents tend to be perfectionist in their parenting because they know what they want to not do. They don't always know what they want to actually do.
- [09:58]
Dr. Amy King
Which is why I think it's so beautiful that you're saying to professionals who might be listening, the first thing you want them to do is to say, let's just think about what you're doing. Right. By asking. Right, Right. How do you create an environment, Robin, where a mom or a dad or a caregiver might say, I think this is trauma.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So I Like to explain trauma to them. Because I think there's a few barriers to understanding trauma. One barrier would be sometimes saying that my childhood was traumatic implies an abuser. Right. It implies a traumatizer, shall we say. But actually, our parents could have done the best they could with the tools they had. And we still can be traumatized. Right. There were parenting trends and ways of handling things, certainly when I was raised in the 80s that we now have thought differently about. Right. We've rethought those things, and they weren't necessarily. No one was trying to harm you. Right. And yet you came out of that experience traumatized. And I feel like you don't have to say my parents were evil for you to have left your childhood feeling traumatized. For me, it's easier to make that distinction because my primary trauma was being raised by a critically ill dad. Like, he had multiple heart attacks in front of me until he died. So I knew he was doing the best he could with the. With the tools he had. I knew my mom was doing the best she could with the tools she had, but she was focused on keeping a critically ill person alive. That doesn't leave enough space sometimes for a child's trauma.
- [11:40]
Dr. Amy King
Well, she was in a space of survival. Right.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So how exactly?
- [11:43]
Dr. Amy King
Going back to your model. Right. If you're in a space of survival, you're not really in a space of intentionality and thriving and being very purposeful. I also really appreciate this idea, Robin, that we don't have to villainize our family of origin.
- [11:59]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Right.
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Dr. Amy King
There's a lot of survival based parenting. There's a lot of parenting because of. Yeah, we parent because of the environment that we're in. And so part of one of the first steps, it sounds like that you also really encourage is setting a stage for parents to not have to demonize how they were raised or how their family was when they were growing up. So they can just. You're a first bridge between them and starting to think about how they want to parent now.
- [12:31]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes. And you. And my first step is always, what are your parenting values? No one gets to tell you what your values should or shouldn't be. It's your values. Right. I very often had this very interesting social media conversation with someone who later became a member of my online community simply because we had this conversation where she told me she hates the term cycle breakers. Because when you're talking about cycle breakers, you're talking about estrangement. And she. Even though her family of origin was abusive, she would never cut them off. And I pointed out to her that there's a lot of real estate between total estrangement and going gray rock and setting a boundary. Right. The two are not the same. In her family of origin, a boundary and estrangement were considered the same thing. But saying, you know, mom, I will come to your holiday party, but I'll only be there for two hours because that's what works for my family. And then we're going to go home when my kids are starting to get overstimulated. That's not estrangement. And she didn't understand that at first. And yes, sometimes we have to go gray rock, sometimes we have to estrange, of course. But estrangement means we've tried to establish boundaries and we couldn't. Estrangement and boundaries are not the same thing. So a lot of times it's that, you know, right. Those moms that just, we have to lead with your values. What's important to you. Right. And for one person's values is not another person's values, and that's totally fine.
- [13:56]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. I love the, the compassion that you're offering here to a mom, for instance, and saying, we don't have to estrange. People that you want to have a relationship with, have tried to have a relationship with, that there are parts of them that you still love and appreciate and want to be in relationship with. But we can set boundaries. And you get to begin to think about this in a different way. It's such a wonderful tool that you're offering them. You know, like I said, this beautiful bridge between, like, it's not all or nothing. Right. You can't be in my life that really, estrangement, as you said, only happens if we tried lots of times to create healthy boundaries and they didn't work out.
- [14:39]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Right. Because social media tends to be very polarizing. And it's like that because algorithms aren't nuanced. Right. So if you want to get eyes on whatever you're saying, if you want to talk about nutrition, the more polarizing you are, the more the algorithm is going to feed people to your page, which can be a good thing if you have something burning that you want to educate. But then you end up in this echo chamber where you start, like, if you're not, like, serving your kids this amazingly nutrient dense diet, you're abusive. If you're letting your child cry ever. Like, you know, you have a nursing baby and a toddler, and the toddler's crying, but you're nursing the baby and you let the toddler cry, he'll grow up resenting you forever. It's like, or there's balance, right? All of these voices. But again, when you're post traumatic, you very often don't trust your own instincts. So these people sound very smart. They have a lot of instincts. I'll trust that person's instincts. But are you that person? Do you live her lifestyle? Do you have the level of privilege she has? Do you have the exact age, children with the same temperaments that she has? Right. So being balanced and saying, wait a minute, you're doing a pretty good job. Yeah, it's not great to yell at your kids. Don't yell at your kids. Sure. But your trauma is what's feeding into that. So let's get you help with your trauma rather than sitting there and like binge watching Netflix for two hours because you're trying to forget how you yelled at your kid. And then you're going to bed late, which means you're going to be more short tempered tomorrow, which is just to keep feeding the cycle. Why don't we have a conversation maybe with a therapist, maybe with a fellow parenting class, maybe a member, maybe with a, maybe with a friend who's going through the same thing and stop the cycle. That's all we're saying, right? We can stop the cycle.
- [16:17]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. I really like that you're humanizing parenting also. Right. Like, I'm a licensed psychologist, I've been practicing with trauma for 25 years. And I yell at my kids, I make mistakes, I, I do things I wish I wouldn't have done. And that's the more important part for me is how do we repair? How do we think about that? How do we circle back? Right. So I also just really appreciate what you're saying about humanizing that for that mom. Right. Who might feel like because she lives in those dichotomies, either I am a great parent or I'm a horrible parent.
- [16:54]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Right. There's a lot. Trauma tends to very much focus our brain in terms of dichotomies. Right. Because trauma is very much, Is that a bear or is that not a bear? Right. Like, am I going to die right now or am I not going to die? So that naturally sets us up to think in these very black and white, perfectionist, rigid terms, like, I was a good mom today, I was a bad mom today. You were a good enough mom today who occasionally dropped the ball and occasionally juggled the ball really well. That's what you were probably. I'm not saying that we should forgive ourselves for everything. That we do if there's something we do wrong. The function of guilt in our psyche is to tell us who. That didn't go well. Like for me, when I felt too stressed and I said, oh, my dominoes are too close together. Because I realized that I was able to say, hey, I need to remove a domino. And maybe that means saying no to somebody that I have to set a boundary with that I didn't want to, or I didn't have the guts to until my kids motivated me to do that. Maybe that was saying no to a project that sounded really attractive. But dominoes will be too close together. Maybe that's, you know, what? I do have to say yes to this project. So I'm hiring support. And I'm not feeling guilty about that. Right. Like I'm going to pay for it to get like a mother's helper to come in and work with me or a homework helper person or, you know, maybe dinner is not going to be those nutrient dense foods that I like to serve. Mostly. Maybe it's going to be frozen fish sticks and french fries. I promise you my kids will be very excited. You know, it will happen and I'm not going to beat myself up about it. And I think the reason I think you and I can do that is we do have the doctorates, right? So like, we can say, you know, wait a minute. Like we can push back when we hear advice that doesn't resonate with us. We can say, wait a minute. Based on what I know of psychology, based on what I know of child development. This is okay. It's like nothing terrible is going to happen if tonight I skipped, you know, in an after dinner puzzle time with my baby. He's still going to grow up and be fine with being able to do math like it's it. I don't have to do this every single night. On the whole, I serve more nutrient dense food than not. On the whole, I am a calm and present parent more than I am a yelling parent. On the whole. Right. I model good boundaries so that my kids can learn them too if occasionally, you know, I drop a ball.
- [19:05]
Dr. Amy King
Okay. Yeah. I really think there's so much truth in that. But what you're also saying is because we have a lot of education and training and even I think about, you know, people with lived experience who have had incredible success in parent coaching and mentoring, who can just offer to parents perspective. Right? Just let's step back and look at the big picture here, that we're not all or nothing types of Parenting. But I appreciate that you're saying that our brain, when we're in a space of trauma, really doesn't want to allow for that.
- [19:43]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes. And I find also that when that trauma app in our brain activates, because it can happen. I have ptsd, full blown ptsd. So I can still have flashbacks. Loud noises, sudden loud noises, like what would sound like an ambulance siren can trigger me. Right? That's what a trigger really means. It's simply. It literally leads me into flashbacks. I can also let my children know that. Right. And I can make space for that. And I can also set a time limit on that. Like, I need to restore myself for a few minutes. So I'm gonna go and I'm gonna calm myself and I'm gonna come back. And I know that that's not cool. Leaving my kids al distress. I know that that's not cold. Giving them the silent treatment, Right. Like being able to say to my kids, right, I need to calm my breathing for a minute. I need to calm down, right? I had. I had a. I had a lot of big emotions, and I want those big emotions to stay contained. So I'm going to contain them now. My kids know that it's not scary for them. You know, I did have. Yeah, I did have that experience once where before I was. I started doing this, one of my children asked me. I tend to dissociate, especially when I have a flashback. And one of my children, actually, he was about 10 old at the time. He's in college now. But he asked me, where do you go when you go away behind your eyes?
- [21:00]
Dr. Amy King
Oh, my gosh. What a. What an incredibly insightful question.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yeah, he was crying. He was very upset. He was like, you, you. And it's interesting because I used to do this adaptive dissociation thing that my therapist had been trying to get me to start working on, where I could go through an entire day in an associated state. But, I mean, I could present research. I could give a. I. I do a lot of school consultations, so I could be giving, like, a teacher training in service day that they're getting their. Their CE credits for in a totally dissociated state. Nobody would notice. I could, like, I thought I had the parenting thing down because I thought, great. I can, like, it's stressful, but, like, I can stay in this dissociated state. And, like, I'm smiling, I'm calm, my kids are getting their dinner. I'm not yelling. Like, I'm moving through the evening, because then those years, my dominoes were very close together.
- [21:48]
Dr. Amy King
And.
- [21:48]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
And until my son said that to me. So what my therapist had been trying to explain to me and what she was really saying is, for your own sake, this isn't good. But what my son motivated me to say, oh, I need to learn a better way to self regulate. That isn't. This is. I thought I had the solution, right? My trauma app was like, this is great. We take your. We take Robin offline and we leave this like sort of Stepford wife in her place and nobody gets it.
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Dr. Amy King
It's great.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
It's fabulous. Till my kids said, wait. And that's the other side of post traumatic parenting. Our kids can help us heal. They can literally be the motivation.
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Dr. Amy King
Yes, yes, yes, yes. For those of you listening, there are two ways, right? We call it earning back secure attachment. And it's through a safe, healthy partnership and through attachments with our children who will beautifully show us how to get back to that space. If we do the work and if we allow the that to happen. Would you mind, Robin, just sharing a little bit more of your story and how you came into this work through your own journey?
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Sure. So when I was. My father was sick my whole life. He had a heart condition. I remember he was. I was about 5 when he got really sick. I spent a lot of my childhood in ambulances because he would have heart attacks or like very close to heart attacks. And my mom was somewhat of an anxious person and she didn't really have who to leave me with. It was in the days before cell phone, so she would just, you know, I would just get loaded into the ambulance. I have this clear memory. In sixth grade, I wrote an essay and it was messy. And my teacher said this was way before we could electronically submit things. And my teacher said to me, robin, you know, this essay is so well written, but I could barely read it. It's like you gave me a beautiful gift in ugly wrapping paper. And it did not occur to me I was a very compliant kid. It did not occur to me to tell her, well, I rode in an ambulance of a speeding while my father may or may not have been dying. Like, it didn't occur to me to say a word. It didn't occur to my mom to like, let the school know because it just wasn't done in those days. And when I got older, my father actually had a heart attack in front of me. And at that point, I was a lifeguard. So I actually did CPR on him. I was not able to save his life. So the paramedics had to, like, yank me off his body to defibrilla him, and they could not resuscitate him. That was when I was 16 and I developed full blown PTSD. But being 16 with no. With no Google and being a very smart kid, I also happened to be. I was very interested in psychology. My mom had been a school guidance counselor, and I thought I wanted to do that, but I wanted to understand the, like, why it works, not the what to do part of it. So I really was interested in psychology, but from, like, a more experimental perspective. So I was actually volunteering at this nursing home for dually diagnosis people. So I just diagnosed myself, and I was like, oh, I guess I'm schizophrenic. I'm seeing things that aren't there. I'm hearing things that aren't there. My poor mom. Like, I'm gonna end up in one of these places. She lost her husband, and now her daughter's gonna go crazy. Never told anyone this. Never disclosed this fear. Like, I felt like my mom had enough on her plate, and who was I gonna disclose it to? There weren't school counselors back then. We had, like, a college admissions counselor person, but we didn't have, like, you know, any of that. So wasn't till I had a year of studying abroad, and then I was in. I was in. I was in undergrad, and this professor was talking about ptsd, about Vietnam vets, and I. I can remember it so clearly. Like, I can remember where I was sitting in the classroom and, like, the ponytail of the girl in front of me, you know, I mean, like, I remember, like, everything that was happening. And I raised my hand and I said to him, is it anybody who can get it or just soldiers? Like, is this something that, like, could apply to, like. And he said, anybody who went through an experience where either they died or they witnessed someone else being in danger of dying or, you know, and I was like, so, like, witnessing someone else you care about die, that would give you ptsd? And he said, yes. And I said, oh. And then I started really researching ptsd, found myself my own therapist at that point, and just really started my journey. But still, I had this other whole journey of, like, child development and learning how to. I was a. I was a special ed teacher at that point. And then I went into grad school, got married, went into grad school. So if you think about it, during those years, I always say, like. Like in. In the forthcoming book, right? I talk about how I was a doc in those years. Like, if you look at Freud's, like Freud's definition of what it means to be successful. He says, like, to love and to work. Right. I was married at that point. I had a very nice relationship with my husband. I was, I was working. I was, I was at that point admitted to a prestigious program, right. Nyu. It's like a hard program to get into. I was doing great research work, and under the surface of the water, my legs were paddling madly. Like, I looked so serene. I look fine. And I feel like this is what happens. I consult with a lot of schools to create trauma, informed classroom experiences and social and emotional learning. And. And so often I say to the school, these kids are ducks. You're not realizing this. You're not seeing it. Oh, she's fine. Yeah. Her mom died three years ago, but look at her, she's adorable. She looks like any other sixth grader. She's fine. And it's like she's a duck. You're only seeing the surface.
- [27:13]
Dr. Amy King
And for people who are listening to this podcast who are working with parents who may feel exactly how you were feeling as a young person. Right. Like, I have schizophrenia. There is something wrong with my brain. It is misfiring. Or I have some kind of a thought disorder or I'm feeling, quote, unquote, crazy. Right. I'm having, like, hallucinations or delusions. There is something very, very wrong with me. And they are, they're self diagnosing. They're not talking about it. It very much is over. Performance on the outside and just terrorizing on the inside.
- [27:48]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes. And it's very lonely.
- [27:50]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. Pay attention to those people. Right? Pay attention.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
And I think, I think also these are people who are feeling a lot of shame. I know I felt a lot of shame. I felt like everybody else, I was doing all the things that everybody else my age was doing. Right. Like I was, you know, you know, the same as everybody else. And yet I felt like I was working so much harder. Like, I looked around at my graduate classmates and I was like, we're all doing the same things, but I feel like I'm like scrambling to keep up. And some of that was imposter syndrome, of course, and some of that was this sensation of being a doc. But then I had a really interesting story. So I started working with Dr. Sandy McClary, who's a temperament researcher. And I was really drawn to her studies on temperament. And just like everything that she was doing research on, I just really wanted to work in her research project. And at the same time, in my clinical Work. I was working with very acting out kids, very challenging kids, defiant kids. And then I was also in. It's just interesting how like what I chose to work with, I ended up also in a clinic for enuresis and ankle priestess. Well, if you're in a clinic for acting out kids, if you, if you get the name in the hospital for the person who likes to work with kids who are acting on a defiant and the person who likes to work with enuresis, you end up with a lot of traumatized kids. You get every sexual abuse case that the hospital has to offer because you're like the go to person. You're. This is. These are also, these are also very often client populations, like clinical populations that people don't want to work with.
- [29:28]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah, yeah. And they're manifesting symptoms of trauma. That's what you see all day.
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Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes.
- [29:34]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah.
- [29:35]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
And then I was giving a, one of these, like state mandated parenting classes for parents of kids who had gotten into trouble with the law. And it was a curriculum, you know, one of these, like, you know, evidence based, like, you know, this is how you parent these kids. And it was a lovely curriculum. It wasn't bad. But one day this one mom raised her hand and she said, how would I know? I said something about a normal childhood. Like, people with a normal childhood who have normative childhood experiences have all these markers of success, and even if you change one, they have all these markers of success. And she said, she raised her hand. She said, how would I know what's normal? I didn't experience normal. And it hit me like a punch in the gut. And I looked at everyone else in the class and I said, does anyone else have this question? Everybody raised their hand and I raised my hand. I said, forget our curriculum. This is what we need to talk about. Anyone who wants to stick around, like, you're getting your credit for like having shown up to the parenting class, but anyone who wants to stick around, let's have a conversation. And we had this intense 45 minute conversation. And it was so interesting because, because of the location of this hospital, it was, it was in downtown, it was in Elizabeth, New Jersey. So you had some people who were real, like 1% people, because it's near some very. Because right when you're court mandated, you go to the nearest hospital that offers the class. So you had some people who were really like wealthy people who were very privileged who were coming into this class. And then you had people who were struggling to put bread on the table every day for their kids. And we all had this in common. Like the love. No matter what level of privilege you were at, whether it was a woman who came here as an immigrant and really pushed herself, put herself through college, is now a successful partner in a law firm, and then has these kids. She's like, when I was 11, I was feeding my family and I'm supposed to know what's normal for my 11 year old son? Son. Like, how should I know that? You know, I had two jobs when I was 11. Wow.
- [31:39]
Dr. Amy King
Wow. And so you just began talking about parenting after trauma.
- [31:44]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
It just hit me that this has been my journey. The reason I'm drawn to working with what turned out to be traumatized kids and the reason I'm drawn to researching child development is because I'm trying to answer this question myself. I don't know what a normal childhood is.
- [32:00]
Dr. Amy King
Right. In psychology, in my graduate program, we said research is me. Search.
- [32:06]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Totally. Totally.
- [32:08]
Dr. Amy King
That's how I ended up in my work too. Right. I do a ton of work about how do we create resilience for children and how do we strengthen families and mitigate stress and harm? And it's because at some point I had this incredible teacher and we looked at the stress system and what created stress and coping, and I was like, what does create good coping? Like, I'm interested in that. So I appreciate that. What would you say, Robin, to professionals who are working with parents? And I love that you offered, you know, just starting and encouraging them that they're doing a great job just by asking questions and showing up. But what would you offer to an OB who has a brand new pregnant mom who may not have processed trauma, or a mom who's coming into a family practice office with three kids trailing behind her and, you know, lots of adversities that she's experienced, just beginning conversations about parenting after experiencing trauma.
- [33:11]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So I would first say direct them to the resources. Like, just because you may not know doesn't mean there aren't people who do know. I find in general, in the medical world, it's sometimes if you can't see it on a slide, you can't read it on a blood test. It sort of doesn't exist. So I feel like, I feel like medical doctors are getting much better about this as people like you are educating them, they're getting there. But this idea that, you know, there are resources out there, direct them to those resources. One amazing thing I know for myself, I have learned so much from, from the podcasts that I listen to. I have, I have really gained. And the Nice thing is those are very democratic in that anybody can access them for free. If you have a smartphone, you can listen to a podcast. If you have a tablet computer, you can listen to a podcast. You know, and I feel like there are so many resources out there to send a parent to parenting classes, parenting supports. They do exist in the community. A lot of specific municipalities and school districts and, you know, hospitals have classes that parents don't even know about that they can tap into. And when you find out about that, have those resources available for that parent. But also listen with that third ear a little bit to what this parent isn't asking you. Right.
- [34:34]
Dr. Amy King
Provider Robin, that I have interviewed for the podcast, every medical provider has said, I wish I listened more.
- [34:42]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes, I say that. And it's my job to listen. Right?
- [34:47]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. Yeah. And you just also.
- [34:51]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yeah. I also remind myself of an experience that I had. There was a point in my life that I was very overweight on, Like, I was obese, and I was pregnant. And I am. You know, although I am an introvert by nature, I am also a very assertive person. I know how to advocate for myself. I have a pretty good understanding of scientific terms. Anything I don't know, I can always research. Right. I went into a doctor's office, and I was complaining that I was really having a hard time breathing, and I was really feeling rundown and exhausted. And he just kept saying, well, you're a working mom who's, you know, you're a pregnant working mom who's overweight. What do you expect? As it turns out, I had pneumonia.
- [35:35]
Dr. Amy King
Wow.
- [35:36]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
And I felt so disempowered in that moment, and I felt so much shame about my body that I didn't say to him, no, this is not normal. I know what exhaustion feels like. I know what pregnancy feels like. I know what being overweight feels like. This is not just cumulative. This is like, you know, this is exponentially worse. But even me, someone who does have the ability to push back. Right. I could not in that situation. I felt so disempowered. So I feel like for medical professionals to know that it's an. There's an inherent power imbalance in this situation. Open the conversation, ask the person. Is everything that I said to you sitting well with you? And I told you you should be reading to your kids every night. I'm giving you this recommendation. You should be feeding them this amount of fruits and vegetables. Whatever the recommendation I gave you is, what are your barriers to doing that? Help me understand. Right. Because you're not Going to tell me otherwise?
- [36:28]
Dr. Amy King
Yes. Oh, my gosh. So incredibly important and so well said. Right? If a parent is not doing as well as you think they should be doing, there's probably a barrier there.
- [36:39]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Right?
- [36:40]
Dr. Amy King
Let's figure it out. Oh, my gosh. I love that so much. Okay, I'm cognizant of our time, Robin and I feel like we could talk for a long time. So we're going to link up to your podcast, the Post Traumatic Parent Podcast, and your website. What's the kind of work you're doing right now with parents?
- [37:00]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So right now I have my Post Traumatic parenting community on Instagram and it is growing. We have a subscription where parents get to ask me individual, direct parenting questions. I did pull the course because we are in the process of hopefully launching the book, which is something that is super exciting. One very interesting thing about the community is that the social media community are the beta readers of the book. Like the book is directly, they ask me their question or they say, robin, you didn't explain this well enough, and I will immediately go back and I will, you know, fix it and I will explain it better. So we're doing. So I'm doing a lot of that. Like, I did pull the class just because I have to really focus on the book right now. So those are the places that people can find me. I also do a lot of public speaking and a lot of, you know, consulting to schools and school districts about being trauma informed, even with other approaches. Like when, you know, I recently started consulting with a ABA agency where they're providing aba, but they're becoming uncomfortable with the level of coercive control they're using, and they want to become trauma informed. And I do believe there is a way that you can honor both sides. So I am working on protocol for that. I'm working on a lot of protocols for how do we interweave social and emotional learning into every classroom so that it's part of your math lesson, it's part of your science lesson, it's part of your social studies lesson. It's just something we talk about. How does the teacher listen with that third ear to what's going on at recess? What are the, like, subtle signs of relational aggression coming up so that it's not just like, oh, once a week, we talk about feelings with the school guidance counselor. It's an ongoing dialogue conversation with the whole entire school.
- [38:45]
Dr. Amy King
Oh, I love it. I'm so glad that that work is happening in your orbit. Okay. I have just a few what I call, you know, Rapid fire questions. Let me ask you a couple of them. What do you think is one thing? I know there's lots, but what is one thing that people get wrong about trauma informed work?
- [39:08]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I think people assume that trauma informed work means that we simply, like, stay with our triggers and we tell everybody our triggers and, like, that's it. They're not aware that we have triggers, and we then learn to manage them. Right. It's not a disempowering world where we stay stuck in our trauma. It's. We have our trauma and then we move forward with it. We integrate it as part of our personality, as part of what we're doing, as part of our values. It's not this, like, all right, that's it. You have your trauma. You have trauma. Everyone has to respect your triggers, and it's over.
- [39:42]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. Oh, I love that. If you could go back to young Robin who thought she had a thought disorder and, you know, just overperforming, what would you say to her with all the knowledge and love and compassion you.
- [39:58]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Have now, honestly, get into therapy. Like, I would have. I feel like I so regret. And every person. Person that I talk to who is in therapy, who decided to start therapy. I did a lot of educational posts on Instagram about therapy and the barriers to therapy and what it's like. Everybody says, I wish I had started earlier. I so wish I had started therapy earlier.
- [40:20]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah. And. And Robin and I, right now, today, in this moment, are attesting to the fact that psychologists, we have therapists too, because it's important work to do. Yes, yes. So I also think in. Especially in healthcare, but in any profession, people get intimidated, right. By knowledge and degrees and all the letters behind names. Will you share one thing about you that's just messy and human and perfectly imperfect?
- [40:48]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So I guess, I mean, there's a few things. First of all, I am not the world's most organized person, especially when it comes to the neatness of my home. And, you know, like, you will not find perfectly organized toys that are appealing and Instagram ready on my toy closet shelves.
- [41:07]
Dr. Amy King
It looks different behind you right now.
- [41:09]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
My office, I have staff, right. So I have people who actually put things away from me. But, like, by nature, I need somebody. I am not great with time management. I need somebody to, like, remind me, like, robin, you're gonna be late. Like, I literally have my secretary put into, like, an appointment. If. If I'm speaking, you know, in another city, it will say things like, you know, make your coffee now. Leave now.
- [41:31]
Dr. Amy King
I love it. I Love it. We all executive functioning extensions. Right? That's perfect. Last question. It's 11:00 at night and you have a food craving, what do you reach for?
- [41:45]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
11 o'clock at night. I am not eating. My stomach cannot tolerate food late at night. I have learned that I don't. I. One of my ptsd, these symptoms is I don't sleep well at all. I'm a very light sleeper. My father. My father's heart attack happened in the middle of the night, so. So if I eat close to bedtime, I am like, yeah, I am finished for the night.
- [42:03]
Dr. Amy King
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Dr. Amy King
If you wanted to reach for just a food craving during the day, what do you reach for?
- [42:08]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So if it was a real food craving, it would be stale Twizzlers. I like Twizzlers, but only if they've like, been left out for like two weeks, so that. So they're hard and chewy. Like, you know, that would be that thing. But mostly I happen to like eating nutrient rich foods. Like, I like how my body feels when I eat those foods. And, you know, the more I've been doing that, like, the more I've been prioritizing my health. And like, you know what, the other day I had an interesting experience where I love roasted Brussels sprouts and so does one of my kids. And. And my husband pointed out to me that that kid isn't being home this week. And I said, I know. And I am roasting Brussels sprouts for me myself. And I. Because I like them and I want them and I know that I am the only person that's gonna eat them, but I deserve to be cooked for just like everybody else in the family deserves to be cooked for. Cause I deserve nurturing and care too.
- [43:02]
Dr. Amy King
Amen. My goodness. I'll come over for roasted Brussels sprouts. I'm with you.
- [43:07]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
They're awesome.
- [43:08]
Dr. Amy King
Robin, thank you so much for this conversation. Listeners will be able to find your website and your Instagram handle podcast in the show notes. But from the bottom of my heart, please know that I'm glad you're doing this work, that I am honored that you have a lived experience that you're willing to share with other parents to create less aloneness in this world. I think that's really how we begin to heal is through stories and hearing each other's stories and having people who bravely step in as you do so clearly. So thank you for creating that community.
- [43:42]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I.
- [43:43]
Dr. Amy King
And thank you for being on.
- [43:44]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. I can't wait to have you on my podcast.
- [43:49]
Dr. Amy King
Me too. Well, that's it, friends. If you like what you're hearing in this space, I invite you to join us in the provider lounge. A learning collaborative to build resilience. It's an incredible group of physicians who meet monthly, get cme, and lean into conversations about trauma, resilience, and other tough topics. This is the most important, important medicine. Keep listening to other people's stories and let them transform you. And keep sharing your own, because your humanity will heal others.