I Survived the Unsurvivable | From A Slight Change of Plans

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "I Survived the Unsurvivable"

Podcast: The Moth presents A Slight Change of Plans
Host: Dr. Maya Shankar
Guest: Javier Zamora, Poet & Author
Date: February 27, 2026
Theme: Revisiting Childhood Trauma and Survival on a Harrowing Immigration Journey

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Main Theme & Purpose

This powerful episode centers on acclaimed poet Javier Zamora’s recollections of his 3,000-mile journey from El Salvador to the United States at age nine. Through the lens of his memoir, Solito, Javier and host Dr. Maya Shankar explore the emotional aftermath of family separation, the burden of loneliness and self-blame, the fight to survive as a child, and the slow, hopeful work of healing and self-acceptance. It’s a story of unimaginable adversity, fleeting but profound connections, and the struggle to reclaim agency and trust in oneself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Childhood & Separation

• Extroverted Beginnings: Javier shares that he was a vivacious, extroverted child, especially under his mother’s care ([09:08], Javier Zamora).
• A Pivotal Loss: His personality changed dramatically after his mother left for the U.S. when he was five, leading to increasing introversion and a persistent fear of abandonment.
  • Quote: “From then on, I'm no longer on the stage. I never volunteer for a talent show again. And I'm very quiet, and I rarely raised my hand.” ([10:06], Javier)
• Potty Training as Symbol: Even childhood milestones were interrupted, with Javier refusing to learn new things that reminded him of his absent mother ([10:56], Javier).

2. Internalizing Blame and the Good Kid Complex

• Coping through Compliance: Javier recalls striving to be the “good kid,” believing misbehavior might drive caretakers away.
  • Quote: “Acting like this helped me once my grandpa was gone ... please, please love me and please like me and please take care of me because if you don't, then I don't know what I'm going to have to do.” ([12:44], Javier)
• Misattributing Guilt: He articulates how, as a child, he internalized both his parents’ departures as evidence of some failure or unlovability on his part.
  • Quote: "As a little kid, I thought that I had done something wrong for her to leave ... all these people must see something in me that I don't see." ([15:09], Javier)

3. The Journey North: Fear, Ritual, and Human Kindness

• Summary of the Migration: Javier details the logistical and psychological obstacles of the journey, including separation from his grandfather, peril at the hands of authorities, and bonding among a group of immigrants, particularly with Patrizia and Chino ([06:10-08:40], Javier).
• Rite of Passage: A prank played by the men (sending Javier to buy non-existent “powdered gasoline”) becomes emotionally pivotal.
  • Quote: “Here was the valedictorian of this Salvadoran town in fourth grade being tricked by the adults. So it reduced my ego.” ([17:08], Javier)
  • Patricia’s fierce defense shifts Javier’s tentative trust towards her, offering fleeting safety and maternal warmth ([20:19], Javier).

4. Building Trust (and Losing It)

• The Slow Burn of Connection: Trust in others like Patricia and Chino developed through necessity and shared hardship, but it was fragile.
  • Notable Moment: Javier describes a night on the boat where Chino, a teenage man, shields him from the cold, stepping into a surrogate protector role ([24:09-26:32], Javier).
  • Embarrassment and Care: Chino shields young Javier in a detention center so he can use the restroom, further solidifying this bond ([27:12-28:09], Javier).
• Bitter Goodbyes: Crossing into the U.S. brings celebration but an unexpected, overwhelming grief, as Javier and his adoptive group are separated—likely forever.
  • Quote: “This goodbye is the goodbye that still makes me break down ... they started as strangers and they became family ... I haven't seen them since then.” ([29:17-33:12], Javier)

5. The Lingering Wounds: Abandonment, Loneliness, and Self-Loathing

• Enduring Effects: Javier reveals how childhood separation fostered patterns of self-blame, loneliness, and what he names as “self-hatred.”
  • Quote: "If I looked at this nine year old kid, it explains a lot of how I act now as an adult ... and that is too much." ([35:10], Javier)
• Dr. Shankar’s Insight: The conversation pivots to the science of loneliness, emphasizing that one must establish a loving relationship with oneself before connection with others is possible ([35:29], Maya Shankar).

6. Healing, Writing, and Reclaiming Agency

• Writing as Repair: The memoir-writing process brings Javier face-to-face with his childhood self. Through this, he begins to shift from seeing him as a helpless victim to “a superhero,” a survivor of the “unsurvivable.”
  • Quote: “In the writing of this ... I learned to view the kid as ... a superhero. ... This kid is a g. He's a gangster. He survived the unsurvivable.” ([37:29, 38:59], Javier)
• Terms & Identity: Javier unpacks how external narratives (“criminal,” “outsider”) are wrongly imposed and internalized by immigrants—and the power in reclaiming the word “survivor” ([38:59], Javier).

7. Ongoing Struggle and Hope

• Striving Toward Self-Love: Even after publishing his memoir, Javier describes difficulty in simply telling himself “I love you” in the mirror—a moving, relatable window into lifelong healing ([40:56-41:34], Javier).
  • Quote: “This was like a few weeks ago. I couldn't do it. ... I started crying. ... But I've been ... telling myself that I love myself. So I can do it. I'm learning to do it. ... it is helping me.”
• A New Perspective on Loneliness: He now understands loneliness, like happiness, as a transient rather than permanent state.
  • Quote: “I used to think ... that loneliness was a always forever place. ... I'm understanding ... that it's fleeting and it doesn't have to stay forever.” ([41:48], Javier)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Moment | |-----------|----------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:30 | Javier Zamora | “I know how to grow up and I know how to make myself small ... please, please love me and please like me and please take care of me because if you don’t, then I don’t know what I’m gonna have to do.” | | 08:40 | Dr. Shankar | “What impact did it have on you when your mother left at such a formative age?” | | 15:09 | Javier Zamora | “I internalized her leaving, and I made it my fault. As a little kid, I thought I had done something wrong for her to leave.”| | 17:08 | Javier Zamora | “Here was the valedictorian ... being tricked by the adults. So it reduced my ego ... I didn’t allow myself to cry because that’s what little annoying kids do.” | | 20:19 | Javier Zamora | “When [Patricia] stood up for me, I knew that she liked me. I began to see her as a mom ... her temperament was very similar to my mom’s.” | | 29:17 | Javier Zamora | “This goodbye is the goodbye that still makes me break down whenever I think about it ... they became family ... and I haven’t seen them since then.” | | 36:07 | Javier Zamora | “I have this deep seated hatred of myself. And what I need to know and learn is to love myself ... but I still don’t believe it.” | | 38:59 | Javier Zamora | “This kid is a g. He’s a gangster. He survived the unsurvivable ... rarely have I heard that term survivor be attached to immigrants.” | | 41:48 | Javier Zamora | “I used to think ... loneliness was a always forever place ... I'm understanding now that it's fleeting.” | | 34:07 | Javier Zamora | “I just want them to know ... I still love them ... and thank you.” |

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Major Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:10] Javier’s detailed summary of his journey from El Salvador to the U.S.
• [10:06]–[12:08] Personality shift after his mother’s departure.
• [15:09] Realization of internalized guilt and its origins.
• [17:08] The prank and Patricia’s defense as bonding moment.
• [24:09–26:32] Building trust with Chino through acts of kindness.
• [29:17–33:12] The emotional climax: saying goodbye to his makeshift family.
• [35:29] Conversation about loneliness, self-relationship, and healing.
• [38:59] Javier reclaims his story—calling himself a survivor instead of an outsider.
• [41:48] Redefining loneliness as transient and revisiting his relationship with his mother.

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Tone and Language

The conversation is candid and deeply vulnerable, with both Javier and Dr. Shankar amplifying the authentic, often painful emotions behind survival and recovery. Javier’s humility, lingering pain, and budding hope anchor the episode, making it both heartbreaking and ultimately, quietly triumphant.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

• Intimate, First-person Experience: Hear a migrant story rarely told from the child’s inner world.
• Exploration of Trauma's Afterlife: Understand lasting effects of early separation and trauma.
• Nuanced View of Survival: Challenges stereotypes of immigrants—centering resilience and agency.
• Hope through Connection and Self-Compassion: Offers an honest look at the slow work of healing.

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If you found this story meaningful, more episodes like it can be found on A Slight Change of Plans with Dr. Maya Shankar.

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Transcript

[Emily Couch]

Hey, Moth listeners, have you always wanted to tell your own story, but you don't know where to start? My name is Emily Couch and I'm the producer of special projects and radio at the Moth and one of the authors of the Moth's new guided journal called My Life and Stories. One thing I've learned through listening to thousands of true personal stories over the years is that stories are everywhere. Even seemingly small events in your life can shape you in unexpected ways. But it's not always easy to identify those moments. My Life in Stories is filled with prompts that will help you mine your memories and find those experiences, big or small, that have made you who you are. We believe everyone has a story worth telling. You can order My Life and [e-mail] mylifeandstories that's themoth.org mylifeandstories Today's episode is

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[Javier Zamora]

What do you have to lose?

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[Narrator/Host (A Slight Change of Plans)]

hey listeners, if you come to the Moth for heartfelt, interesting stories that you can really sit with and learn from, this episode from our friends at A Slight Change of Plans will feel familiar. At age nine, poet Javier Zamora began a harrowing 3,000 mile journey from El Salvador to the United States states. More than 20 years later, he shared his story, one of loneliness, anxiety and resilience, revisiting what it took to survive such difficult circumstances and the struggles he still grapples with today. With the same heart and vulnerability that Moth listeners love, Zamora revisits fear, endurance, and the quiet courage of a child navigating an unimaginable change. Like the Moth, A Slight Change of Plans is all about our shared experiences and how they shape us. It's hosted by Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive behavioral scientist and bestselling author who explores who we become in the face of change, how we can better navigate moments of upheaval, and why change might just give us an opportunity to unlock great possibilities. Enjoy this episode if you like what you hear. Find A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.

[Javier Zamora]

I know how to act in a way. I know to grow up and I know how to make myself small so these individuals won't think of me as an annoying little kid and so that they would love me and take care of me like oh my God, please, please love me and please like me and please take care of me because if you don't, then I don't know what I'm gonna have to do.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

That's Javier Zamora, who at age nine left his childhood home in El Salvador to reunite with his parents in the U.S. javier is describing his approach to winning over the other immigrants who were also on this dangerous 3,000 mile journey to the US border. It's been more than 20 years since that experience and Javier has finally decided to revisit his childhood in a memoir called Solito. In reflecting on his past, Javier realized he needed to update his understanding of his nine year old self.

[Javier Zamora]

In looking at this kid, I also realized that I was treating him how politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. He had committed a crime. He is somebody that doesn't belong in this society. He's an outsider. And slowly I was like, no, hold up. This kid is a g. He's a gangster. He really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I heard that term survivor be attached to immigrants.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

On today's show, Javier Zamora looks back on his harrowing immigration journey. Maya I'm Maya Shankar and this is A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. In his memoir, Javier writes from the perspective of his nine year old self. For our conversation today, I was eager to hear how 32 year old Javier reflects back on his experiences as a young child. In particular, I was curious about his relationship with loneliness and how it ebbed and flowed as he made his way to the U.S. but first, I asked Javier to share a summary of his immigration story to help us better understand what made his journey so treacherous and his survival so extraordinary.

[Javier Zamora]

I was born in a small fishing village in EL SALVADOR In 1990, in the middle of a civil war. And my dad fled that war in 1991, when I was still 1 years old. And my mom left when I was 5 in 1995. And they left me at the care of my grandparents and my aunts. And at first my parents promised that they were going to come back, but then around the time when I turned seven, I started hearing the word trip a lot. And it became clear that I would be trying to get to the US as well in order to be reunited with them. And so they decided to use the same coyote that helped my mom get to the United States in 1995. And the coyote is like the smuggler and he was with my mom every single step of the way. And her trip was relatively safe and fast. It took her two weeks. So at age nine, I leave my hometown with my grandpa to go and meet the coyote who has six other people that he's also bringing along with me. And we make it safely from El Salvador to a town in Guatemala where we stay for two weeks. After the two weeks, my grandpa has to leave. And so now truly, for the first time, alone or solito. And from that border town, we go to another border town in Guatemala on the coast, and we get on a boat and we take a 22 hour boat ride to somewhere in the Mexican coastline. Fast forward from there. We take multiple bus rides, warehouses that we're locked in. There are bribes. We get pulled out of buses by Mexican immigration cops. After five weeks, we make it to the US Mexican border, so the Sonoran Desert. And it is there that we make three attempts to make it across the border. And during these attempts, I get apprehended by border patrol agents twice. We get chased by helicopters twice. I'm in a detention cell and I literally almost died during each of my attempts. And I have guns pointed at me multiple times. And it's not until weeks later that I make it across the border successfully, and I'm finally reunited with my parents.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Thank you for sharing that. So, Javier, I would love to start off by talking about your experience as a five year old in El Salvador. Your mom fled to the U.S. as you mentioned, at this very formative time in your development, and she left you under the care of your grandparents and your aunts. And I'm curious to know what this transition was like for you, what impact it had on you.

[Moth Podcast Announcer]

Hmm.

[Javier Zamora]

Well, you know, one of my first memories is my third birthday. And in my third birthday, I remember being this loud, very extroverted child. And I think it was because of my mom. My mom made sure that I would be the kid, the volunteers for everything at school. She would take me with her every time in the morning when she went to the mercado or the local market, and in the afternoons, and there was this popular song, there was this dance called Sasa Sapo. And everybody in town when I was 2 and 3 would ask me, all the vendors would ask me to dance. And that carried over into preschool and kindergarten. And so for every Mother's Day and Father's Day celebration, every assembly, I would be the kid who performs in front of people.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And so I was very extroverted. And everybody knew me. I knew everybody. And then she leaves when I'm five, in the middle of first grade. And from then on, I'm no longer on the stage. I never volunteer for a talent show again. And I'm very quiet, and I rarely raised my hand to answer a question. And so my personality truly changed. And she also leaves during a very formative year for me that she was potty training me, and she leaves in the middle of it. I never graduate onto the adults toilet.

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[Javier Zamora]

It's like something that I refused to learn. And I think I refused to learn not because I wasn't intelligent, but because I think it reminded me of my mom.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Do you think that also explains the shift from extroversion to introversion? Because what I'm hearing you say is that being extroverted was inextricably linked to your mom. She was the one who brought you to the markets. She was the one who made sure you were volunteering. And so, in part, do you feel like you retreated from that way of being because it was too sad to be reminded of those memories?

[Javier Zamora]

Absolutely. What just flashed in my mind was my mom. She would choreograph these dances as I would, like, sing along or pretend to sing along. It was lip singing, but she would teach me. We would make A costume together, and then she would teach me a dance. And so all those things. Yes, you're absolutely correct. It was too hurtful to do the things that I would do with my mom because it would mean that I would acknowledge that she was no longer next to me and that she was no longer with me.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Wow. Okay. When you left for your trip to the us and of course, it's uncertain how long this trip will be and what it will look like. As you mentioned, your grandfather traveled with you as far as he could go before he had to return to El Salvador. And then you were truly left alone with a group of strangers who would be accompanying you on the rest of your journey. And this group included a woman named Patricia and her daughter Carla, and also a man named Chino. And you're nine, Javier. So I want to know, how did you respond to suddenly being in a group of just strangers?

[Javier Zamora]

I think going back to when I was five, I learned to grow up. I learned to be an adult. Like, my dad was gone. I never missed him because he was never there to begin with. Who I did miss was my mom. And once she left, part of me becoming introverted also got coupled with trying to behave and be a good kid so the adult around me wouldn't leave me ever again. And as a little kid, I remember always trying to do my best to fold my clothes, to wash the dishes, to eat everything on the plate just so I wouldn't disappoint them. And so my training for this trip didn't start weeks before. I think it started the moment that my mom left because I behaved so well that I didn't want to bother my grandma and my aunts, who are my dominant caretakers. And acting like this helped me once my grandpa was gone, but he leaves me with these strangers. I know how to act in a way I know to grow up. And I know how to make myself small so these individuals won't think of me as an annoying little kid. And so that they would love me and take care of me. And so it was like, oh my God, please, please love me and please like me and please take care of me. Because if you don't, then I don't know what I'm going to have to do.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And that was the constant everyday life for me on this trip.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I want to unpack the conclusion you drew as a 5 year old about how you needed to be in order for people to stay with you, to not leave you, which was, I have to be this good kid. I can't Misbehave. I cannot do anything bad. I need to be an adult. Did you feel that your mom had left you because you were not a sufficiently good kid? I mean, had it ever been explained to you why she was leaving?

[Javier Zamora]

Whoa. I'm just beginning to unpack that now.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Wow. Okay.

[Javier Zamora]

But yes, the short answer is yes. I internalized her leaving, and I made it my fault. As a little kid, I thought that I had done something wrong for her to leave. And then I heard about this other individual, my dad, who I only talk to on the phone. And as a little kid, I like kids do. My whole world was just me and the people around me. And so all these people must see something in me that I don't see. And I am the reason why they keep leaving. And that just saying that out loud has taken me years. And so this is like a self, almost hatred that was planted in me from that age caused by my mom's departure. Because why are these people leaving? Why is the person that's supposed to take care of me and love me, my mother? Why is she gone? As a little kid, I have no context for a war, poverty, all these push factors, the violence that was increasing. So I had no context for that. The only context that I have is my mother's love.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

I see. So let's return to your trip, Javier. You're alone with this group of strangers, and you're being extremely careful to be as well behaved as possible. But some of the men in the group, they decide to play a joke on you, and this results in a turning point in your journey emotionally. And it begins when the men send you on a fool's errand to. They tell you to fetch powdered gasoline from a nearby store, which is not actually an item that exists. And a local shopkeeper ends up laughing in your face when you make this request. And, you know, you're very embarrassed. I'm wondering if you can tell us what happens next.

[Javier Zamora]

So this was the fourth shop that I enter in this small coastal village. And nobody, everybody just pretended, went along with it until this shop owner. And her laughter just felt like an arrow right at my heart and my head. Because on top of being this well behaved kid, I tried to be liked by being really good at school. And I prided myself in being the most intelligent. I was the valedictorian. I won first place every single year. And so here was the valedictorian of this Salvadoran town in fourth grade being tricked by the adults. So it reduced my ego. And this is like three days into being truly by myself. And I didn't allow myself to cry because that's what little annoying kids do. I'm not a little annoying kid. I'm an adult. And if I cry, people are not gonna like me. So it just broke me down. And I just start crying. And I run back to my room that I share with Patrizia, the mom and her daughter. And I tell her what happened. And Patrizia being Patrizia, a small Salvadoran woman who is a fighter, she just grabs me by my hand and takes me to the men who are still smoking. They always. They were constantly smoking. And she screams at them and tells them, why did you do this? Like, why are you picking on this kid? Like, you know, and they're like, oh, no, no, it's a joke. Calm down, calm down. And eventually, after she stops screaming and they apologize, she makes them apologize to me. And then they asked me to stay behind. And she looks at me and I'm like, it's okay. And then she goes back to the room, and it is there with the man that they explained to me that this is the rite of passage, that somebody has done it to them. And they tell me, oh, you're a grown up now. You're an adult. And as they're saying this, they offer me a cigarette. And it is the first time that I have a cigarette, and I just start coughing. And so all of that being lied to, being broken down, Patricia helping me and standing up for me, and then being inducted into the men's club, what that situation did for me is it weirdly made me more comfortable around the men, and it made me closer to them, and it made me feel that I was actually an adult and that I could undertake anything that was going to happen on this trip because I wasn't a normal nine year old kid.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

How did Patrizia, coming to your defense, change your relationship with her and how you saw her and how you saw yourself? Because, you know, she is a mom. She's a mom in your environment.

[Javier Zamora]

When she stood up for me, I knew that she liked me. I wouldn't go as far as saying that she loved me, but I knew that she liked me more than any of the other strangers. And what that did for me is that I began to trust her more and more. And I knew that I could count on her. I knew that when we were walking in town that I could walk next to her. I didn't have to walk by myself or behind everybody or walk next to the coyote, but I walked next to Her. And internally, I think that I began to see her as a mom. And it's weird that she had the exact same name as my mom, Patricia, as my real mom. And her temperament was very similar to my mom's as well. And I think in hindsight, those two things subconsciously made me gravitate towards her.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And I slowly also won her over, and she won me over as well.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

You said you noticed that you were starting to trust her, which is a very big deal in the life of young Javier. And your constant fear of abandonment, I think, speaks to that. Did this episode with Patrizia and that growing trust lead you to come out of your shell a bit more and maybe tap into some of the extroversion you had shown as a young child, but had hid away because it was just too painful?

[Javier Zamora]

A little bit. I don't think I allowed myself to go back to the extroversion.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

It was too risky.

[Javier Zamora]

It was too risky.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

The closest I came to that was induced by Patrizia.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Tell me about that.

[Javier Zamora]

We're in another room and she starts farting in front of me. And. And then I'm like, oh, my God, an adult farted in front of me. That takes a lot of trust.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And that is something that I never did with my mom, but something that I had done with my aunt. And it took us years to get to that trust level. And here is this stranger, Patricia, who I'm getting closer and closer with as the days go on. She just lets it rip, and then I let it rip, and we have this beautiful stinky moment. And that takes trust.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And so that is the epitome of my extroversion. But that's it. I'm still very afraid that if I act out, even she will leave because my mom has left, you know, so anybody could leave.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. Foreign.

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[Dr. Maya Shankar]

From what I read in your memoir, it seems like the trust between you and others in your group really did ebb and flow over the course of your nine week journey. You know, you would take a few Steps forward, then many steps back, and then more steps forward and many steps back. Do you remember any defining moments in which you became more trusting of the people in your group? Any other stories or scenes you can paint for us?

[Javier Zamora]

So I think the cigarette scene was when I learned to trust Patricia, when I learned to trust the person that I trusted the second most, or at times the most, became this individual named Chino. The men, all they did was chain smoke and drink and watch tv. And Chino was the youngest of the three. Chino was around 19 or 20. And I learned that he liked me, and I learned that I could trust him on this boat. So we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and it's completely dark, and it's already night. We got on the boat at dawn, around 5am and this must have been around, like, 10pm, 11pm and it's very, very cold. And all I have is this little thin jacket, and I'm shivering. And Patricia has a jacket, and her daughter also has a thin jacket, but she puts her daughter inside. And then she also tried to put me on top of her daughter. All three of us huddled together, and it's not working. The zipper is not zipping up. So the wind is still coming at me. And it feels like I'm in the Arctic Ocean. And Chino is sitting across from us. And he sees this, and everybody is seeing this woman struggle, but nobody offers to help, not even the other man in the group. But Chino is like, hey, Javier, do you want to come over here? Like, I can cover you with his jacket. With his jacket. And I kind of look up at Patricia, who I trust. We have this bond now. And she gives me the okay, and I'm like, okay. And I walk across the boat. Gino opens his jacket, and I put my arms where his arms go in his sleeves, and he zips it up. And he's just hugging me and trying to warm me up because we're both extremely cold. And from then on, I learned that he cares. But again, our relationship ebbs and flows. I knew that it changed when he was only with the adults. He was probably trying to be a man or trying to impress these older men. So in him trying to impress the man, he forgot about me, and he wouldn't really talk to me. He would be different.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

So when he tried to embody this more manly role, it came at the expense of a trusting relationship with you.

[Javier Zamora]

Yeah. And I don't know, in a very patriarchal, Machisto way, like, a man is not supposed to take care of a little kid. And yet this young man was. And the older men would tease him too. They were like, oh, why are you this kid's mom? And that is, I guess, not a thing that men should do. And yet Chino. Chino would and did.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There's also this moment when you are both in a detention center where Chino really steps up as this surrogate father figure and helps you use the restroom.

[Javier Zamora]

You know, using the bathroom on this trip was the biggest fear that I had. My grandpa in Guatemala those two weeks. He took it upon himself to really teach me to trust that I wasn't gonna get flushed out into the ocean if I flushed the toilet.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

So you were worried it would suck you in?

[Javier Zamora]

Yeah, that was a complete fear. And I didn't know how to swim, so I was like, if I'm flushed down the toilet and I'm in the ocean, I'm gonna die. And then once my grandpa leaves, I could do that privately. But peeing in warehouses and eventually peeing in a detention cell in front of all these other adult men with adult sized penises became this fearful thing. And I learned to like, keep my pee inside as long as possible. And I was in detention for 48 hours. So at one point I had to pee.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah, and.

[Javier Zamora]

And it is Chino who steps up. He pretty much becomes the curtain so all the other people won't see me pee. And he does this repeatedly. I think it's telling that it's him, the pseudo father, who is really taking care of me.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There's this very stirring moment that you describe in your book in which after these three attempts, you successfully make it across the US Mexico border. And there's this feeling where trust is at an all time high. There's such unbridled joy and happiness actually finally making it to your destination. But then it's accompanied by a massive heartbreak because you realize that all these people you've grown close to over the last nine weeks are going to be living on the opposite side of the US from you. And as you're forced to say goodbye to Patrizia, Carla and Chino, you realize for the first time just how much your relationship has shifted with them over the last nine weeks.

[Javier Zamora]

The moment that I have to say goodbye to them, you know, we have already made it. We're somewhere in a warehouse in Tucson. And we are not alone. The four of us are part of this group of 30 immigrants who have just successfully crossed the border. And not only that, more and more vans keep coming. So at one point, this two Bedroom apartment in Tucson is filled with, I want to say over 100 people and it smells bad. And in this whole commotion of people coming and going, we, Patricia Chino and Carla have to say goodbye. And it didn't click to me or in my brain that we like I knew that the US was big geographically. I thought that we were gonna at least be like an hour away from each other. But they're in D.C. and I'm going to San Francisco and them describing that they still have like a three day car ride left, I'm like, oh my God, you are going really far. This goodbye is the goodbye that still makes me break down whenever I think about it. Because I still remember huddling in this dirty carpet in the middle of all these strangers and all of us crying because they were gonna say goodbye to this kid and I was gonna say goodbye to these family members. You know, they started as strangers and they became family in that goodbye in that warehouse. I realized because they were family that I loved them and I knew that they loved me too. And I knew that I wasn't going to see them as much and I didn't know that it was going to be forever. And so I haven't seen them since then. And I think every time I didn't allow myself to remember that and whenever I do remember it, I get teary eyed because this was it, this was the goodbye. And they are the only people that know exactly every little thing that occurred, even the unimaginable things that you would think I am making up. They are the only ones that know that that truly happened and they witnessed it with me and they were there every single step of the way. Even when we almost died in the desert, when we didn't have water, and even when this Arizona rancher pointed a shotgun at all of us, they were there and they know it all. I think that's why it hurt and that's why it hurts to even remember that. And here it. I think what kept me from writing this memoir for 20 years was that these individuals that I had learned to trust and that I had learned to love and that loved me in the worst of conditions were gone. And I think that five year old came back. And by that I mean that I probably blamed myself. I blamed myself that I was the reason why they didn't stay in touch and that I was the reason why they were gone. And of course I don't know what their life was like, I don't know what they were coming to hear. But I do know that after two Weeks. We stayed in touch for not two weeks, like a few weeks. But then they stopped calling. And as a nine year old, I blamed myself again. So I don't know.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

And when you tried to call them, you were not successful?

[Javier Zamora]

They changed their number, but we didn't change ours.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. So you felt abandoned again?

[Javier Zamora]

I felt abandoned again. Even though when it mattered, they never abandoned me.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. From what I understand, trying to get back in touch with Patricia carlanchino was a huge motivation for you to write this memoir in the first place. To revisit your traumatic past in so much detail after pushing it away for so many years. And curious to know if you are given the chance through this book to reconnect with them, what would you want to share with them in that conversation? Hmm.

[Javier Zamora]

That I still love them and that here is the nine year old stranger kid. They didn't know me. That they helped and they chose to help. They didn't have to. And that that kid has grown up and this is the one way that I know to thank them. You know, the book is dedicated to them for a reason. I am indebted to them for life and for my life and I just want them to know that I am very, very, very, very, very grateful. And. Yeah. That I still love them. And thank you. Yeah.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. How would you explain why it is you kept these memories buried for so long? What were you running away from?

[Javier Zamora]

I was running away from myself. Meaning that if I looked at this nine year old kid, it explains a lot of how I act now as an adult. And so if I look at him, I would be looking at myself. And that is too much.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

What's striking me in this conversation, Javier, is that you were left alone so many times in your childhood. But what we know from the science of loneliness is that it's actually establishing a strong and loving relationship with yourself that is a prerequisite for staving off loneliness. It's a prerequisite for being able to feel connection with others. And I heard you talk in the beginning of this conversation about self hatred and it seems like that's the real demon that you've been fighting. Is that right?

[Javier Zamora]

Absolutely.

[Alma Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

I have this deep seated hatred of myself. And what I need to know and learn is to love myself, love who I am. And my wife reminds me of this every single day, God bless her. But I still don't believe it.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Javier Zamora]

And I think you're 100% correct that if I don't love myself, it makes the loneliness last longer. And it's like I'm addicted to that loneliness because I've been alone for so long. But if I learn to love myself, I won't be because now I would have a relationship with myself.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've felt that self hatred too. I think so many of us have. And oh gosh, in your case, what I feel is it is such an unfounded dislike of this little boy that I see is a hero, is a brilliant, strategic, loving little hero. And so it just feels so irrational. Right. That you would not love that little boy. But gosh, this is a big question, but it's kind of like what has worked for you in terms of learning to love yourself and to unwind some of those negative thought patterns.

[Javier Zamora]

You know, in the process of writing this book, I would have this very vivid dreams where I was back on the root. I was back somewhere sometime during those nine weeks. And in the writing of this, in the facing it almost every day, I learned to view the kid as how you just described them, as a superhero. For 20 years, from the ages of 9 till 29, I saw this kid as this helpless pushover who put people at risk. And so I was blaming him and hating him for having done what he did.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Sorry, let me. Tell me what you mean by done what he did. What did you do

[Javier Zamora]

by that? I mean that he immigrated by himself. That.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

And that was on you.

[Javier Zamora]

And that was on me. And I blamed him because, you know, why would you do this?

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

And I guess that traces back to. None of this would have happened if I had been more lovable and my mom had stuck around and I had given her a greater reason to stay.

[Javier Zamora]

Yeah, it goes back to that.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Gosh, okay.

[Javier Zamora]

And so you blame yourself even though you're a nine year old kid.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah.

[Mint Mobile Sponsor Voice]

And.

[Javier Zamora]

And in the looking at this kid, I also realized that I was treating him how the politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. So I was believing them. And that also affected how I viewed my nine year old self. He had committed a crime. He was taking resources that are not his. He is a pushover. He is, I don't know, somebody that doesn't belong in this society. He's an outsider. All these negative terms that I have completely internalized. And slowly I was like, no, hold up. This kid is a g. He's a gangster. He survived the unsurvivable. Yeah, he really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I heard that term survivor be attached to immigrants. You know, you're refugee a lot, but let's unpack that. These refugees have survived something and these Immigrants have survived the thousands of miles as they cross Mexico and they've survived the desert and. And using that term and claiming that term has really unpacked a lot of things for me, to the point that I'm like, wow, this kid is a superhero. He has so many skills, and he made it. And that gave me agency. And having that agency is the beginning of learning to love myself. Yeah, I'm not there yet. And when you said that one thing that my wife just recently made me do, she made me tell myself that in front of a mirror that I love myself. She's like, just do it 25 times. And I couldn't do it. And this is after I wrote the book. This was like a few weeks ago. I couldn't do it. Yeah, I started crying. And that's even after having finished this. That's still where I'm at. Although she doesn't know this. But I've been on the road and I've caught myself staring at the mirror and telling myself that I love myself. So I can do it. I'm learning to do it. And it sounds like a very basic thing, but it is helping me.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yeah. Progress.

[Javier Zamora]

Yeah.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

How do you think about when you reflect back on your journey and where you are today? How do you think about loneliness?

[Javier Zamora]

I used to think, I don't know that cliche thing of people say, oh, happiness is fleeting, but we think that happiness is like a. A place to be and that it's going to stay forever. Well, I used to think that loneliness was a always forever place. And I'm understanding it, that it's fleeting and it doesn't have to stay forever. And that's what I didn't realize.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Part of Javier's process for learning to love himself again has been rebuild trust with his mom. For years, he had resisted talking to her about his childhood and how her leaving affected him. But they finally had that conversation. And while Javier says it's been a long road, today they are closer than they've ever been. Hey, thanks so much for listening. That's a wrap on season five of A Slight Change of Plans. We'll be back in 2023 with new episodes. Until then, you can follow the show and connect with me on Instagram. R Wishing you a happy holiday and new year. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner, Tyler Greene, our story editor, Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer, Andrew Vastola, and our Associate producer, Sarah McCrae. Louise Guerra wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there. And of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram Rmayashankar.

[Narrator/Host (A Slight Change of Plans)]

That was a special episode from A Slight Change of plans with Dr. Maya Shankar. Find more episodes of A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts day or night.

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