Presenting Heavyweight: The Messenger

Summary

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The Moth Presents Heavyweight: “The Messenger”

Podcast: The Moth (featuring Heavyweight)
Host: Jonathan Goldstein
Date: September 26, 2025

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Overview

This episode of The Moth podcast features a special presentation of an episode of Heavyweight titled "The Messenger." Host Jonathan Goldstein helps a man named Michael revisit a pivotal event from his adolescence: being cast as the lead in a short film called “The Messenger” — only to see it all collapse when the film’s director, Quincy, is exposed for a damaging lie. This deeply human story explores regret, deception, and reconciliation while pulling in themes of ambition, identity, and the legacies we leave behind.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael’s Brief But Life-Changing Starring Role

• Michael’s Early Passion for Acting

  • Michael describes himself as a mediocre childhood actor, always hidden in the back row. Despite discouragement (“my mom says your singing is awful” — [05:08] Michael), he keeps at it.

• Landing the Role

  • As a high school senior, Michael hears about auditions for a movie being shot in Cleveland. To his shock, he’s not made an extra, but cast as the star after resembling the storyboard drawings ([06:41] Michael).

  “They showed me the storyboard and I looked exactly like the kid in the drawings of the storyboard. I think that's the reason I got it.”
  — Michael ([06:41])

• The Movie: “The Messenger”

  • Based on a true WWII story: A teen, Thomas E. Jones, delivers the telegram announcing Japan’s surrender — only to be delayed by a traffic incident ([06:55] Jonathan Goldstein).

2. The Glamour & The Fallout

• On Set and in the Spotlight

  • Michael is awestruck by the film set’s magic; director Quincy becomes a mentor and friend, and anticipation builds for a big festival premiere ([07:36] Michael, [08:18] Jonathan Goldstein).
  • ESPN and USA Today run stories; Tom Hanks is floated as interested in meeting Michael ([09:40–10:18]).

  “My dad picks up the USA Today, flips it open, and sees, you know, a two page spread with my picture on it.”
  — Michael ([09:52])

• The Lie Revealed

  • Days before the premiere, Quincy confesses: He couldn’t find the real Thomas E. Jones, so he filmed an actor on a fake deathbed, passing him off as Jones. The real Jones was alive, and his family saw the movie’s press coverage ([11:34] Michael).

  “It turns out that Quincy had lied and had told a really big lie.”
  — Michael ([11:34])

  • The movie is pulled. Michael has to retract everything to friends and family, feeling devastated and embarrassed ([12:33] Michael).

3. The Real Story of Thomas E. Jones and Family Reactions

• Interview With Thomas E. Jones’s Widow and Children

  • Nancy, Jones’s widow, recounts the true story — her husband was never in a diner eating pancakes (as the film showed) and was a diligent worker.
  • The Jones family was outraged at the portrayal ([18:56]), while Thomas himself was more forgiving.

  “That was kind of my dad's attitude, like, oh, don't make a big deal. Don't get this person in trouble. We said, no, this is altering history. It just kind of portrayed him like, as the slacker, you know, like, oh. The heck with that. I'm going to go and flirt and eat pancakes.”
  — Mike Jones ([19:28])

• Attempts to Contact Quincy Fail

  • Goldstein attempts to find Quincy, who refuses to talk:

    "I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore." ([20:41])

4. Unraveling the Mystery With Pat Croce

• Who Is Pat Croce?

  • Executive producer, media personality, and former 76ers owner. He facilitated the film’s funding and media attention ([08:24], [09:40] Jonathan Goldstein).
  • After the scandal, he regrets being duped and feels betrayed ([26:32–27:37]).

  "I was so hurt that I was angry. And when I'm angry, the old Pat Croce, the old corner guy, man, not only did I lose the money, but all the contacts... I had to go and apologize to everyone."
  — Pat Croce ([27:09])

• Pat's Perspective on Moving Forward

  • Having gone through personal transformation and health battles, Croce chooses not to dwell on regret ([27:43–28:11]).

  "The past to me is smoke off the end of my cigar."
  — Pat Croce ([25:14])

• Crucially, Pat Reaches Out to Quincy Again

  • Following a chain of industry connections, Croce ends up speaking with Quincy and helps arrange a conversation between Quincy and Michael ([28:11–28:55]).

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5. The Long-Awaited Conversation: Michael and Quincy Reunite

([31:32])

• Reunion After 20 Years

  • Michael and Quincy reminisce about filming and recall their own small lies on set ([32:07] Michael admits not knowing how to drive stick).

  “I was like, I'm a fraud.”
  — Michael ([32:34])

• Coming Clean: Quincy Explains The Lie

  • Quincy explains he found only a single passing reference to Jones in a Truman biography and, unable to locate Jones (investigators found what Quincy thought were death certificates), made the fateful choice to stage the interview ([34:31] Quincy).

  “I just saw the story rolling out... I couldn't get away from that story.”
  — Quincy ([35:33])

• Confronting Self-Deception

  • Quincy admits to a lifetime habit of exaggeration — a defense learned at a prep school where he never felt he fit in ([36:49]).

  “Lies became a beautiful wall between myself and everyone else. Lies protected me, but also isolated me. It took the collapse of the messenger to finally get me to stop.”
  — Quincy (paraphrased from [37:37] and [37:49])

• Aftermath for Both Men

  • For Quincy: Lost his job, left the film world, and struggled with public disgrace.
  • For Michael: The setback didn’t derail him. The experience on set revealed his calling; he became a successful TV writer ([38:25] Michael).
  • Michael ultimately thanks Quincy for setting his life on its path ([38:44–39:34]).

  “All of this life that I have… this partner, this career, this kid, it comes from this wild, weird, random moment in Cleveland, Ohio, where you decided to cast me in this short film… I never got to just thank you.”
  — Michael ([38:44])

• Quincy’s Relief & Catharsis

  • Quincy confides his belief that he ruined everyone’s life, and is moved by Michael’s gratitude ([39:34], [40:12]).
  • Pat Croce’s brief, forgiving phone call — “let it go” — gives Quincy unexpected closure ([40:30]).

  “As soon as he said those words, let it go, I just... sat out in front of my house and cried for a good 20 minutes.”
  — Quincy ([40:30])

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6. Epiphany and Closing Reflections

• Transcending a Legacy of Lies

  • Quincy, humbled, accepts the weight and lesson of his mistake. Michael finds gratitude, not bitterness, in the trajectory his life took.

• Storytelling as Redemption

  • The episode closes on the film set with Michael and his wife, now a producer — a poetic scene where the artificial world of filmmaking is embraced as a shared, “honest” lie ([41:14–42:13]).

  “It's all a lie, of course, but one that we're all in on.”
  — Jonathan Goldstein ([42:13])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I just saw the story rolling out... I couldn't get away from that story.”
  — Quincy ([35:33])
• “All of this life that I have… comes from this wild, weird, random moment in Cleveland, Ohio, where you decided to cast me in this short film… I never got to just thank you.”
  — Michael ([38:44])
• “The past to me is smoke off the end of my cigar.”
  — Pat Croce ([25:14])
• “As soon as he said those words, let it go, I just... sat out in front of my house and cried for a good 20 minutes.”
  — Quincy ([40:30])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | | -------------- | ----------------------------------------- | | 05:08–06:41 | Michael’s audition and getting the role | | 06:55–08:18 | Story of “The Messenger” and director Quincy | | 09:40–10:18 | Movie’s media attention; Tom Hanks tease | | 11:34–12:33 | The lie revealed; movie canceled | | 17:03–19:09 | Interview with Thomas Jones’s family | | 23:07–28:11 | Pat Croce's involvement and outlook | | 31:32–32:34 | Michael and Quincy reunite | | 33:17–36:29 | Quincy details his downfall | | 36:49–37:49 | Quincy’s history with lying | | 38:25–39:34 | Michael thanks Quincy, life after | | 39:34–40:30 | Quincy’s catharsis; Pat says "let it go" | | 41:14–42:13 | Coda on set with Michael and Katie |

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Tone & Style

• Warm, Wry, Deeply Personal: Goldstein’s narration is gently self-deprecating and empathetic. Michael and Quincy share with candor, vulnerability, and surprising humor.
• Reflective, Redemptive: The podcast dwells on regret but shifts toward understanding, forgiveness, and gratitude.

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Summary for New Listeners

Whether or not you’ve ever heard Heavyweight before, “The Messenger” stands out as a compelling, stranger-than-fiction exploration of how a single choice can ripple through lives for decades, what drives us to embellish our own stories, and what freedom can be found in letting go of shame. It’s a moving testament to the unexpected grace of second chances, and the quiet, life-changing power of a thank you.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pushkin. Hi, dear. Happy birthday to me.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh my God.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was your birthday.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

It was your birthday last week, wasn't it?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's kind of why I was phoning birthday. I.

[Michael]

I'm sorry, buddy.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It loses something when you have to call a week later to receive to get your own birthday wish from someone you know. It hurts.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Okay. Honestly, I feel like your birthday's not that important to you. Am I wrong?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, it's not as important to me as the first night of Hanukkah. And the second night, not the third night. I hate the third night. You know what? As a birthday present to myself, I'm gonna hang up on you. Happy birthday to me. Indeed. From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, the messenger, right after the break. As a kid growing up in Cleveland, Michael loved acting.

[Michael]

The only problem, I wasn't very good.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In fact, he stank in every summer camp show. He was placed in the back row in a children's production of the the Musical. Backstage, a kid dressed as a dwarf told Michael, my mom says your singing is awful. But it didn't stop Michael. He nursed his acting bug all the way through senior year when one day he heard about a movie being filmed in Cleveland and the director needed lots of teens to be extras. Straight after school, Michael made his way to the auditions. He was shown into a room with the director and some of the crew. They gave him a script and he.

[Michael]

Started acting and their eyes lit up and I was asked to keep reading. And so we did the scene again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We did it Again and again and again. And all the while, Michael was overcome by a curious feeling.

[Michael]

I was doing a good job.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Had you ever experienced this before? Like been in an audition where people were responding this way?

[Michael]

No, no, I was usually in auditions where they're like, we can make him a tree.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

At the end of the audition, the director told Michael that he was not going to be an extra. Michael was going to be the star of the whole movie. Why was he going to be the star of the whole movie? Was it his Brando esque brooding, his Shia LaBeoufian intensity?

[Michael]

They showed me the storyboard and I looked exactly like the kid in the drawings of the storyboard. I think that's the reason I got it. They were just like, you look like the kid we drew.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The film was called the messenger, based on a true story. And the true story it was based on was a little known World War II anecdote about a teenager named Thomas E. Jones. Jones was a telegram messenger in Washington D.C. on August 14, 1945, he was sent to deliver the telegram that announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies. But on the way to deliver the message, he got pulled over for an illegal U turn. And thus the end of World War II was delayed by 10 minutes. Michael played the role of Thomas as he navigated that fateful day.

[Michael]

I show up to set and I just was immediately involved in the magic of film. They had to fake the daylight by putting lights outside the window. And I remember being like, oh, you're not just like capturing a moment, you're creating a moment.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And the custodian of this exciting new world, the director of the movie was a 25 year old wunderkind named Quincy. Quincy took to Michael immediately throughout the production. He'd check in with Michael on the phone and take him out for wings. Michael looked up to Quincy to meet.

[Michael]

Someone who was orchestrating this giant production and then for him to like, take time, talk to me. I felt part of.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Even after filming wrapped, Quincy stayed in touch, calling Michael with updates about the movie's release.

[Michael]

We were gonna premiere at the Philadelphia Film Festival. I learned that it was a big production, $100,000 short film, which is a lot of money for a short movie. The executive prod was this man named Pat Croce.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Pat, Pat, Pat.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If you don't know the name, Pat Croce was a media presence, an entrepreneur, famous in the world of sports because he owned the Philadelphia 76ers in the late 90s. Oh, what a play by Iverson. He was A motivational speaker.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I get up, I slap my palms together. It's gonna be a great day.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A noted pirate enthusiast.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

People ask me if I'm a pirate and I say yes, but 300 years too late.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And the kind of beloved pre. Me too, macho man who'd show up unannounced on the set of the local news just to scoop the anchor woman up into his arms.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Accident on the Jersey term, if I could.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My God. Because when you have that much joie de vivre, what choice do you have?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

You know, whenever Pat comes in the.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Room, you never know what's gonna happen.

[Michael]

He just doesn't have any rules because Pat Croce, because he's involved. The movie gets a lot of press.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For a short film by an unknown director, the messenger received an unheard of amount of press. ESPN carried a story with footage of Michael on set. And there was a huge write up in USA Today.

[Michael]

My dad was flying that day. You know, he was in an airport, he picks up the USA Today, he flips it open and sees, you know, a two page spread with my picture on it. So the family's excitement, the friends excitement, everyone starts to just be like, this is a very big deal.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Michael was planning on college in the fall. But as anticipation around the movie grew, he started to reconsider.

[Michael]

Leading up to the Philadelphia Film Festival. Talking to Quincy, he's like, tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This is a real chance. This is a real opportunity. This is bigger than I imagined this. I was like, maybe. Maybe I try and pursue acting.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Maybe Michael had been wrong all these years. Maybe everyone had been. Maybe he really was a good actor. And it took Quincy to discover it. Michael couldn't wait to walk the red carpet, see himself on the big screen, and enjoy a virgin Appletini with Tom Hanks. Did your parents come with you to the premiere?

[Michael]

Well, we didn't make it to the premiere. The movie was canceled. So the week before the Philadelphia Film Festival premiere, I got a phone call from Quincy and he was clearly crying. And he told me that the movie wasn't going to come out and nobody was gonna see it because it turns out that Quincy had lied and had told a really big lie.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The lie Michael's referring to had nothing to do with the historical anecdote itself. That part was true. But over the end credits, Quincy played footage of the actual present day Thomas E. Jones being interviewed on his deathbed. The only problem, that guy was an actor. It seems Quincy had just found a random old man, slipped him into A gown strapped him into a hospital bed and christened him Thomas E. Jones. But there was one thing Quincy wasn't counting on.

[Michael]

Because the movie had received so much attention. Thomas E. Jones real family found out.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And Thomas E. Jones real family wasn't happy. Because as it turned out, the real Thomas E. Jones was very much alive. Breathing, eating, sleeping, and not on a deathbed, but just a regular old bed bed. And so Pat Croce decided to pull the movie.

[Michael]

I mean, it was crushing disappointment. I had the ticket to go. I had the suit, I had all the expectation I had in my brain, everything that could be possible after. And it's all gone. It's all. It vanishes. And then it's a wave of embarrassment because I have to tell everybody.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Michael had to go back to his friends, family, his grandmother, who'd been clipping every article about the movie, and say, remember how I was going to be a big movie star? It was all a fraud. And the guy who thought I had talent, also a fraud.

[Michael]

And I never talked to Quincy again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Michael abandoned his dream of becoming an actor, but his time on the messenger still had its impact. It allowed him to realize how much he loved being on a set, loved the magic of creating a whole world from thin air. And that pushed him towards a career in TV, writing for shows on Disney and Nickelodeon. Meanwhile, Quincy's IMDb credits have grown sparse.

[Michael]

I always wondered what happened to Quincy because I looked up to him. There was part of me that wanted to tell him that I've, like, succeeded, that I've pursued movies because of him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But along with that, Michael has a lingering question for Quincy.

[Michael]

I never understood why you would take such a big risk like that to make such a big line. It's like you've set up a film crew to film this guy on his deathbed and it wasn't him. Like, it just seems like a bad plan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As Michael has climbed the ranks of show business, this question has only gained in poignance. Why risk your reputation, especially when the story was good enough as it was?

[Michael]

Why did you lie after the break.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Searching for Quincy to become the messenger's messenger. But first, the best messages of all. Promotional messages from our cherished sponsors. We really do love you guys. Ew. Too gross.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Interviewer/Various Voices]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

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At your DSW store or dsw.com why did Quincy lie? The more I think about it, the less sense it all makes. Why go to the trouble of hiring an old man and building a hospital set? Why not just use the real Thomas E. Jones?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Hello.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, hello. My name is Jonathan Gouldstein. I've so far been unable to contact Quincy, so I reach out to someone else who might have the answer. I was looking for a Thomas E. Jones.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

He's deceased.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, I'm. I'm very sorry.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Yes, I'm his widow.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We have. When he died, we would have been.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Married almost 70 years.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Thomas's widow, Nancy is 89 years old. She says she doesn't know why Quincy didn't just go to Thomas himself. But we get to talking and she tells me the story of how she first met Thomas. It was through his work as a messenger. It turns out Nancy's father was Thomas boss at the telegram office. She tells me how in 1945 there was a dedicated telegraph machine standing by for the sole purpose of awaiting the Japanese surrender.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And when that machine started ticking, my father, he handed the message first to.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My husband, who was a bicycle messenger.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

At 16 years of age.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Since a bike was too slow for such an important message, a co worker agreed to drive Thomas in his car. Unfortunately, he set out in the wrong direction and thus the Most famous U turn in American history, or at least the only one I've ever heard of. And I've read my Howard Zinn. The U turn got Thomas and his driver pulled over by a cop. Of course, they were saying, we've got the Japanese peace surrender message here. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

But the police realized it was the truth.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

They just tore up the ticket. Wow, what a story. Yeah, and it's a pretty different story than the one in the Messenger. Not only were the Joneses angry about the fake Thomas, but they were also angry about what they considered the fake story. In Quincy's version of events, Thomas is in no hurry to deliver the message. He makes a casual pit stop at a diner where he hits on the waitress and enjoys a large breakfast of pancakes, all while the war rages on. The Joneses read about that scene in the media coverage of Quincy's movie. Newspaper write ups with headlines like, boys Pancake Breakfast Delayed the end of World War II.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Well, you know, my kids were just serious about that. We're not talking about kids.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We're talking about people now 60 years old. We were outraged.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

The kids were outraged.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Victoria Jones. She's one of Thomas and Nancy's six children, all of whom, when it came to the messenger, were in agreement, which.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Was unusual for the six of us.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Thomas son, Mike Jones. He says that the only one inclined to let the whole thing go was Thomas himself.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

That was kind of my dad's attitude, like, oh, don't make a big deal. Don't get this person in trouble. We said, no, this is altering history. It just kind of portrayed him like, as the slacker, you know, like, oh.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The heck with that.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I'm going to go and flirt and eat pancakes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Victoria says that although Quincy never reached out to her father, he easily could have. Just like you found my mother by getting a few phone calls. Quincy could have found my father and he never tried. When she found out about the movie, Victoria messaged Quincy several times, but she says he grew defensive and eventually stopped answering. And then when my father died, I sent him a message and said my.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Father is now deceased.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And he did not respond to that?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

No, no.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I should go back and look.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

He might have said, I'm sorry, and that was it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I tell the Joneses the story about Michael and how I'm trying to reach Quincy myself.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Good luck with that one. I'm sure he'll think this is a better Left a dead story, don't you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It turns out Nancy Jones is right. When I finally get through to Quincy via email, his response is emphatic. I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore, he writes, and that's the last I hear from Quincy. What happens next is years go by unrelated to my failure to speak with Quincy. But you never know. Heavyweight is canceled and I lose my job. And while the story never entirely leaves my mind, without an ergonomic office chair and a long distance phone plan, there's not much I could do about it. And then one day, while trying to decide on a fun font for my resume, I receive a message from Michael. He says he has an important update to share.

[Michael]

Hey, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, Michael. How are you?

[Michael]

Good. How are you doing?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's been almost three years since Michael and I have spoken. You have a son now.

[Michael]

I've got a wife. I've got a son.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The whole family is currently in New York, where Michael's wife Katie is producing a movie. It turns out that Katie's movie is the reason for Michael's update.

[Michael]

An associate producer on the movie, his name's Dan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Michael explains that while out for dinner with Dan, they started talking about the industry, by which I mean the show business industry. And one of the things people in the industry enjoy chatting about most is how they got into the industry. So Michael told Dan the story of the messenger, about the director, Quincy, about the producer, Pat Croce.

[Michael]

And Dan is from Philly. Dan's parents are family friends with the Croces.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're kidding. Show biz connections. In this life, there's not a thing that doesn't come down to show biz connections. It's not what you know, when you know, where you know it, or why you know it, but whom you know. Pat Croce was the executive producer on the movie, the one who ultimately shut it all down. So with Quincy unwilling to talk, he's our best shot at figuring out why Quincy had lied. At some point, Pat had to have demanded an explanation from Quincy. Dan agrees to talk to his mom, who agrees to talk to Pat's daughter, who agrees to talk with Pat, who then agrees to Talk with me. Mr. Croce?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Call me Pat.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Pat. Pat. Pat Croce.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

One thing I like to say about your heavyweight podcast is that it always inculcates a high vibrational frequency.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Can you say more about the high frequency?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Well, in the realm of form, if we're going to transcend form, Pat Croce.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Has a white gautay that ends in a point at his chest. He's in the zen Den, a large room above the barn on his 53 acre estate. His walls are covered in Chinese and Tibetan calligraphy. He says that these days he seldom makes any media appearances. Is there any reason for that?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

It's a great question, you interviewer, you. Well, 10 years ago, something happened. My mind cracked.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pat's mind cracked in a meeting for one of his restaurants. He owns several, among them the Rum Barrel, which is pirate themed.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing here? I don't really give a shit about the next great grouper sandwich. This is just more. I always was seeking more. Another win, another standing ovation, another bestseller. Another, Another, More, more. There was never enough. Never.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What Pat realized was that in spite of all his successes, he wasn't really happy. And so he tried to change his way of thinking, but it was a slow process.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

The ego in me was, if I can change my mind, that'd be another great bestseller. And I would go back on the speaking game. It was all ego, all commercial. But that's how Grace hooked me. Everything that unfolds is perfect. I have this adage, the past has served its purpose perfectly. But most people are cherry pickers. Well, I wish that would have changed or I wish this. Or no, the purpose of the past, Jonathan, there's only one purpose. To bring you and me right here and now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

The past to me is smoke off the end of my cigar.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For me, the past is also smoke off the end of my cigar. Juicy wafts of precious smoke to be hysterically clawed at like a rabid raccoon attacking a helium filled garbage can. And so I ask Pat to go back to the past and explain how he became involved with Quincy, Michael and the Messenger. He says it all began in Key west at the pirate themed museum he owned that sat beside the pirate themed restaurant he also owned.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And you get to know all the piratical personalities on that island, one of which was Reef. And Rief is a salvager. And he's really got a piratical nature. He would even dress as a pirate. And I really loved him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

One day, Reef asked Pat for a favor. Could Pat meet with his son Quincy, who wanted to make a movie?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And we got talking and he turned me on to this script that he has been writing and.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And you liked it?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh, sure. Are you kidding me? It's talking about this young boy who has an effect on the ending of World War II.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And you hadn't known that story? I hadn't known that story.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh, no. I Had never heard of.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What was your impression of Quincy when you first met him?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh, I liked him. And so. And I believed everything Quincy told me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When Quincy's lie came out, Pat was furious.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Prior to 10 years ago, before, you know, my mind cracked. He's lucky he didn't cross my path or else he wouldn't be walking.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You mean that? You mean that literally? Um.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Let'S say no. Since this is being taped. I'm pretty street savvy. I couldn't believe that I got buffaloed like this as someone I thought was a friend. You know, a friend, a Key west friend. I was so hurt that I was angry. And when I'm angry, the old Pat Croce, the old corner guy, man, not only did I lose the money, but all the contacts that I made for him to get him in USA Today. I opened all these doors through all my relationships, and then all of a sudden, when I realized that it was a fraud, that it was phony, I mean, I had to go and apologize to everyone.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But Pat says that these days he doesn't have time for rumination or regret.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And even though I am here at peace, my body has bone marrow cancer. I'm on chemo every 12 hours of chemo meds. Incurable. However, I don't regret that. I don't nothing. Oh, wow, Jonathan. It's only my body. It's not me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Before we get off, I ask Pat Michael's burning question. Why did Quincy lie? But Pat says he doesn't ask the why questions. Only Quincy, Pat says if he goes deep, can answer that. Pat and Quincy haven't spoken for decades. Their last interactions were angry ones right after Quincy's lie came out. All the same, Pat offers to reach out to Quincy. He contacts a friend who he thinks might have Quincy's phone number. I don't have high hopes, but Pat and Quincy do end up speaking. And afterwards, for reasons I can't discern, Quincy agrees to speak with Michael. Get smoother, brighter skin instantly. In one easy step, Dermalogica's daily microfoliant gives you the smooth, glowy skin you.

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Interviewer/Various Voices]

A new season of Survivor means a new season of On Fire, the only official Survivor podcast.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Each week we break down the game like nobody else can.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

From how the season is built to.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Why the players make the moves they.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Do, it is the ultimate companion to the show.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So if you love Survivor, I think you're gonna love On Fire.

[Michael]

Follow and listen to On Fire with.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Jeff Probst on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcast. A video call between Michael and Quincy is arranged. And while we wait for Quincy, I ask Michael the opening question I learnt in J school. Are you in a bathroom?

[Michael]

No, this is our tiny little kitchen in our apartment.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's late at night and Michael gives me a tour of his darkened New York apartment.

[Michael]

There's Carson's little lunchbox.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Very sweet. Where is he right now?

[Michael]

Carson is asleep.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What a lazy bones. And then hello. Quincy enters the chat. It's been almost 20 years since he and Michael were together on set. Quincy was 25 at the time. He's in his 40s now.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

It's nice to see Michael's face. I haven't seen his face in a long time. I know.

[Michael]

It's good to see you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Michael and Quincy begin by reminiscing about their time together, about making the movie.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

There were two scenes that really stand out for me. One is when all the kids were in the diner.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

They exchange memories from what feels like unfraught territory. Stuff like the casting and the fun of being on set.

[Michael]

My favorite scene was doing the U turn you had me drive stick shift. And I lied. When I auditioned, you were like, can you drive stick? And I was like, I can drive stick. I couldn't drive stick. I was really.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh, I never knew that.

[Michael]

And I was, like, stalling out, like, grinding the gears.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It feels like Michael is trying to make Quincy comfortable, show that Quincy wasn't the only one capable of a lie.

[Michael]

I was like, I'm a fraud.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I remember he rented the car from. Was like, pulling his hair out too. He was like, I thought this kid could drive.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But it doesn't take long before the conversation turns to the elephant in the room, and it's Quincy who brings it up.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I remember wanting to reach out to you in years that passed. Yeah, I felt a lot of guilt because, like, this film, everybody had put so much sweat and tears into it, and it was just nothing. It, like, evaporated. And I thought, my God, I failed every single person. And then I became, like, national news. And then the blogs were writing about me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Because the messenger got a colossal amount of pressure when the truth came out. Quincy received a proportional amount of backlash, similar to how the tidal wave of the Messenger's success hit Michael. The bad news about the Messenger's failure hit Quincy. He was at the airport reading that day's newspaper over someone's shoulder.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And they were reading the article about me and how I had lied. And that hit me like I'd say a ton of bricks. But a ton of bricks would have felt like a pillow compared to what that was.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How are you coping?

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I was in denial. I kept going back to this, like, excuse of, well, the Titanic. Right, The Titanic. It's a fake movie. It's based on a true story. There was no Jack and Rose. And yet what I had done was totally different. I mean, I was literally trying to pretend that this other actor I had hired was Thomas Jones. And it took me a year or two to sort of come to terms and just be like, man, I really fucked up.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Which brings us to the question of why. Why swap a random old man for Thomas E. Jones? To explain, Quincy starts with how he came to the story of the messenger in the first place.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I had been working that summer at the Truman Little White House in Key West. And sort of in my onboarding at that museum, they told us to read David McCullough's Truman biography. And it was in that book that I saw this one sentence about Thomas E. Jones and the Messenger.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And it was literally one sentence, one sentence in parentheses in the middle of a thousand page book.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And I thought, God, what an amazing story.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But Quincy thought, you know what would make it an even more amazing story? If he could find Thomas E. Jones, interview him, and include that interview in the movie. And in Quincy's telling, he did look for Thomas Jones.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

I had hired literal investigators to go find this person. Two different guys, and they both said, like, you know, we can't find him, but we found these two death certificates that kind of match up.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So the death certificates felt like enough. Quincy concluded that the Thomas E. Jones he was looking for probably was dead.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And I didn't share that with anybody because in my head, I just saw the story rolling out. It was like we were gonna tell the story. And then at the end, you saw the real gu. And that I couldn't get away from that story.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And in the absence of the real guy, the next best thing was a fake guy.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Oh, well, the deceased, Thomas Jones will never know. And anybody that sees the movie, it's going to be so great, and they're going to be crying and laughing at the end of it that they won't.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Care for this role. There was no casting, no auditions. In fact, the part of Thomas E. Jones wasn't played by an actor at all.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

He was actually a tour guide at the Truman Little White House.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Quincy had asked a work friend from the museum to do the job.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And then the real Thomas Jones found me. And I certainly remember that feeling. It was like a disgust I felt for myself.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In the aftermath, Quincy left the film world for many years. He was fired from his job at the Truman Museum. He eventually found work clerking in a bookstore and making wedding videos. While this was the first time a lie of Quincy's had been so brutally exposed, he admits that the lying itself was something he'd been leaning on since his teen years.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

You know, I had come from a fairly poor family in Key west, and I had attended a very exclusive prep school up in Western Massachusetts called Deerfield Academy, where I had no business being there. And. And so I felt this, like, sense of just, like, always needing to exaggerate. It would be like, oh, I'm going to Paris for winter break. And I'd be like, oh, gosh, you know, Paris, it's great, you know, but didn't even know what country it was in. It was like a daily thing. Freshman year, someone had a picture of Jimi Hendrix, a poster. And I remember looking at his name and thinking it looked kind of French. And I was like, oh, I love Chimey Hen Dry. And I remember him looking at me and being like, What?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For Quincy, lies became a beautiful wall between himself and everyone else. Lies protected him, but also isolated him. It took the collapse of the messenger to finally get him to stop.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And it was actually very relieving because it took a lot of weight off my shoulders that I didn't have to make every story 10% better. I didn't have to. As hard as that was, that was the most important lesson, full stop period of my life.

[Michael]

After we did the Messenger, I didn't take that as anything that stopped me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When Quincy is done sharing the effect the messenger had on his life, Michael shares the role it played for him.

[Michael]

Seeing the camera, seeing the crew, it blew my mind. I didn't know that this was possible. I didn't know that this is what it looked like. And I was in it's Quincy and.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The messenger that inspired Michael's career. But it isn't just that Quincy gave him a professional life. He gave him a life.

[Michael]

I married this beautiful person who she's a movie producer. And we have this amazing kid called Carson who's two and a half years old. And all of this life that I have, this, this partner, this career, this kid, it comes from this wild, weird, random moment in Cleveland, Ohio, where you decided to cast me in this short film. And it's all this to say, like, I never got to just thank you. I've always appreciated that door that you showed to me and allowed me to walk through that moment, that time, that invitation that you gave me to be on set changed the entire direction of my life.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

That means. That means a lot to me. I look back on that time with totally different eyes. It was one of the most difficult things in my life. And I can't tell you, like, how meaningful it is to me to hear that someone had something good come out of it, because it certainly didn't feel like that. I was convinced that it would ruin everyone's life because that's what I was feeling at that moment.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Quincy just assumed anyone involved with the messenger would still be furious with him. And so a few weeks back, when he saw Pat Croce's name pop up on his phone, he says he almost felt too scared to pick up. But when they spoke, instead of yelling at him, Pat told him it was time to let it go.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

As soon as he said those words, let it go, I just. I sat out in front of my house and cried for a good 20 minutes. I didn't know before we talked today, actually, genuinely what you were gonna say today.

[Michael]

You know, I met you as this person I looked up to.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

You're gonna make me cry. I'm really, really genuinely happy for you.

[Michael]

Thank you for taking time just to talk to me. But really thank you for the life I got to have because of it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Recently. I got to share in that life. One day leaving our New York studio, Michael says he's off to meet his wife, Katie. Her crew is filming just a few blocks away and Michael asks if I'd like to come and I say sure. On the corner of 20th street and 7th Avenue, shooting is in full swing. The movie stars John Turturro as an aging pickpocket who ends up with a thumb drive containing a crypto wallet on it. Michael and I are waved past the protected perimeter and Katie gives me a pair of small headphones as I watch take after take of John Turturro slamming down a payphone and screaming fucking in fake fury. I feel like a 10 year old on a field trip. All around us, the city bustles as normal while we're tucked away in our make believe world watching make believe things. It's all a lie, of course, but one that we're all in on.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

And action.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sam.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Now that the furniture's returning to its.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Goodwill home.

[Michael]

Now that the last month's.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide if we.

[Michael]

Meant it, if we tried or felt around for far too much.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Things that accidentally touch. This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Khalilah Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Mohini Madgaon and Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Lucy Sullivan, Karen Shakurji and Nazanin Rafsanjani. Our production counsel is Jake Frank Flanagan. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellowes, John K. Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Bobble Principal and Shanghai Restoration Project. Our theme song is by the Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast or email us at heavyweightushkin fm. We'll be back next week with a new episode.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Heavyweight. If you did, find new episodes of Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

ABC.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Wednesday Shifting Gears is back.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

He has arisen. Tim Allen and Kat Dennings return in.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Interviewer/Various Voices]

What what? With a star studded premiere including Jenna Elfman, Nancy Travis and hey buddy.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A big home improvement reunion welcome. Oh boy, that guy's a tool.

[Interviewer/Various Voices]

Shifting Gears season premiere Wednesday, 8, 7.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Central on ABC and Stream on Hulu.