Presenting Office Ladies: Work Friendship

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Moth Presents Office Ladies — Work Friendship

Episode Title: Work Friendship
Air Date: June 19, 2026
Guests/Hosts: Jenna Fisher, Angela Kinsey, Cassie Jerkins, Sam Kieffer

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Overview:

This episode is a cross-promotion between The Moth and the popular Office Ladies podcast. In honor of National Best Friends Day (June 8), Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey—real-life best friends and stars of The Office—explore work friendships, personal stories of best friends, and what makes enduring bonds. The episode interweaves listener submissions, pop culture references, research insights, and vulnerable personal anecdotes—blending humor, nostalgia, and warmth to celebrate friendship in all its forms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Best Friends Day (03:01–04:25)

• Jenna shares the origins of National Best Friends Day—established by the U.S. Congress in 1935, timed in early June for good weather, while International Friendship Day (July 30th) was established by the U.N. in 2011 to promote global understanding.
• Angela: “How about that?” [03:40]
• Discussions include creative ways to celebrate, like sharing novels about friendship.

2. Office Friendships: Why They Matter (05:08–08:15)

• The hosts unpack how The Office‘s lasting appeal lies in its depiction of diverse, layered friendships.
• Angela lists what an internet article sees as the top ten friendships on The Office (06:36), with Jim & Dwight at #1, but she points out others they feel were left out, e.g. Andy & Darryl, Pam & Michael.
• Angela: “I do like that they say Angela, Oscar and Kevin. But I think Angela and Oscar had their own true friendship.” [07:21]
• Jenna: “The friendships represent the very wide range... it kind of covers all the different categories.” [07:53]

3. Listener Letters: Real-Life Friendship Stories

Frenemies Turned Friends [08:15–10:13]

• Allison S. (Edmonton, Canada) describes a rivalry-turned-best-friendship: “Our friendship took off when we helped each other box dye our hair in her bathtub and realized we both did a terrible job.” [08:42]
• The hosts note the similarity to their own enduring friendship—especially keeping in touch through distance with voice memos and video calls.

First Best Friends [21:39–29:36]

• Angela describes Karinsa, a friend from toddlerhood in Indonesia, still close decades later.
• Alana D. (Pittsburgh, PA) writes about Cassie, her lifelong best friend who flew in to support her during breast cancer: “Her presence and us still being able to be us turned a potentially terrible day into something beautiful.” [24:43]
• Carly B. (Newark, TX) and London have a ritual of smudging food on themselves in solidarity; the hosts celebrate how inside jokes and quirks cement bonds.

Friends Through The Office [31:44–33:17]

• Becca M. (Edmonds, WA) tells how The Office bonded her and her best friend Lisa, even leading to an Office-themed bachelorette party.

4. Office Ladies’ Own Friendship History [55:25–61:25]

• Jenna and Angela reflect on their “origin story”—citing proximity on set (adjacent desks) as the seed of their friendship.
• Jenna recalls nervously gifting Angela a best friend necklace: “It was a little bit like saying I love you for the first time in a relationship.” [60:57]
• Angela shares a journal entry from The Office days, full of mundane but cherished memories—“It's just so simple, but that is it, lady.” [59:11]

5. Candid Reflections on Difficult Journeys & Support (14:27–19:48, 55:54–66:53)

• Jenna shares being featured in a cancer care campaign, revealing vulnerability around her battle scars and the support of Angela and her friends during her recovery.
  • Angela: “You know, I was with you when you had it removed, and that was emotional day for you.” [16:17]
• The episode’s end features Sam Kieffer sharing his sobriety journey and a heartfelt thank-you to the hosts and producer Cassie for their compassion and impact:
  • Sam: “The three of you have systematically dismantled large parts of my brain that have been causing me pain... For the first time in a long time, I’m optimistic about my birthday and my life and my future because the three of you have taught me gratitude.” [61:43–65:30]
  • Angela: “We love you so much, Sam. Office Ladies is not Office Ladies without you.” [65:31]

6. Making & Maintaining Friendships—Research Insights & Advice (41:47–56:01)

• Jenna’s “Friendship Deep Dive” shares results from the Snapchat 2011 Friendship Report.
  • Hardest periods for making/keeping friends: 30s and 40s.
  • Top reasons for friendship fade: relocation, new love, parenthood, employment change, and loss.
  • Tips for making friends: Assume people will like you (because most underestimate their likability—“the liking gap” [46:53]); take initiative; join group hobbies.
• Listeners and hosts share ways to reconnect and make friends, with stories from online friendships (Sani Y. from Finland) to work proximity (Kristin R. from Buffalo).
• Sam illustrates that making friends as an adult takes effort, courage, and initiative:
  • “Making new friends this year has been weird and difficult. Making friends over 40 is difficult in general... but it has been really, really nice.” [52:16–53:07]

7. Pop Culture & Friendship in Movies (33:29–41:04)

• The hosts and team recall favorite “best friend” movies, including:
  • Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants (which they saw together 20 years earlier),
  • Thelma & Louise (“She has this speech at the end... it changed something in me about women supporting women.” [36:23])
  • Muriel’s Wedding, Pride and Prejudice, But I'm a Cheerleader, In Bruges, and, humorously, [The Lord of the Rings: “four really good friends... it takes like nine hours, but it’s really, really good.” [37:14])
• Angela spotlights the Charlotte-Lucas/Elizabeth Bennet bond from Pride and Prejudice, sharing a favorite scene improvised by Emma Thompson:
  • “I’m 27 years old, I’ve no money and no prospects. I’m already a burden to my parents. And I’m frightened." [38:59–40:09]
  • Angela implores Jenna to finally watch the movie: “To know me is to know how much I love this movie... I need you to see it.” [41:04–41:12]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Angela: “I also love that they stay in touch with voice memos and video chat because there's been many times in our lives, in our friendship when we weren't in the same city. And we did that. And I knew your whole life because we were so dedicated to sharing and keeping each other in the loop.” [09:55]
• Angela: “To be a good friend, you have to put the time in... you work for the friendship.” [30:08]
• Jenna: “I lost touch with my very first best friend... Her family moved... It was sort of very sudden.” [26:49–27:39]
• Jenna: “You felt like home to me. You felt like here I was in the middle of Hollywood on a TV set. But you felt like a friend I would make back home.” [57:01–57:13]
• Angela (reading journal): “Back from lunch, Jen and I ate in her trailer. It's my favorite... I want her to come see the two hydrangeas I planted in my backyard. They are finally starting to bloom.” [57:52–58:29]
• Sam (tribute): “Everything that I am better for from having known you three comes from you guys overcoming your own battles in life. You all have done so much inner work that it spills over and affects those around you. I just want to say that I see you and the work you’ve done... Thank you for letting me be a part of this show and your family and I love you.” [65:01–65:30]

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Notable Segments With Timestamps

| Segment | Main Content | Timestamp | |---------|--------------|-----------| | Best Friends Day History | Origin and ways to celebrate | 03:01–04:25 | | Top Office Friendships | Listing & discussion | 05:35–08:15 | | Frenemies-to-BFF Letter | Letter from Allison S. | 08:15–09:55 | | First Friend Stories | Angela’s and listener letters | 21:39–29:36 | | Friendship & Pop Culture | Movies & significant scenes | 33:29–41:04 | | Scientific Take on Friendship | Research findings & practical tips | 41:47–56:01 | | Office Ladies’ Friendship Origin | Proximity stories/journal | 55:25–61:25 | | Sam's Reflection | Moving speech of gratitude & recovery | 61:27–66:53 |

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Tone & Style

The episode is spirited, thoughtful, and often laugh-out-loud funny—full of “inside friendship” jokes between the hosts, warm encouragement, and honest vulnerability. The hosts reflect the gentle, supportive, and sometimes playful tone of true friends catching up and reminiscing, but are never afraid to delve into more serious, emotional territory regarding health, distance, or the challenge of adult friendships.

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For Further Listening/Resources

• Office Ladies Podcast
• The Moth stories at themoth.org
• Office Ladies’ recommended novels and movies about friendship: see episode notes for links
• Jenna’s cancer survivor feature in USA Today (mentioned [19:21])
• BuzzFeed “Who is Your Dunder Mifflin Best Friend?” quiz [10:15–14:27]

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Final Thoughts

This Office Ladies x The Moth collaboration delivers a heartfelt, celebratory meditation on the power of friendship at work and beyond. Packed with stories, research, and lovable banter, it’s a perfect comfort listen for anyone who cherishes their besties—or is searching for connection themselves.

Transcript

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

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[Host/Interviewer]

at the

Moth We Talk a lot about the moments that change us. The big pivots, the grand adventures. But often the most transformative parts of our lives aren't the things we do, but the people we do them with. The ones who know our coffee orders, our childhood secrets, and exactly which version of a bad day we're currently having. Today, we're doing something special. We're sharing an episode from our friends over at Office Ladies. Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey spent years playing characters who weren't exactly best friend material to one another on screen, but off camera, they built a bond that has spanned decades. In this episode, they're honoring the history that shaped them and the future they're still building together. You can find Office Ladies everywhere. You get your podcasts and stay right here for more from Jenna and Angela.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm Jenna Fisher.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fisher]

We were on the Office together and we're best friends. And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the Office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.

[Jenna Fisher]

We're the Office Lady 6.0.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hello.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hi there. Welcome to Office Ladies 6.0. Today we have a really special episode. I know we say that a lot, but I love this one. We've always wanted to do an episode around Best Friendship. And this is in honor of Best Friends day. That is June 8th.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, National Best Friends Day is this Sunday, June 8th. And we thought it would be fun to celebrate. So we asked you all to write in about your best friends, and we're gonna share some of your letters. They were so wonderful to read. If you wanna be in a good mood.

[Angela Kinsey]

Ye.

[Jenna Fisher]

They should put together a book of just people sharing a story about their best friend.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Because it made me so happy. And also, Angela did a little deep dive on office friendships, but I thought I could kick things off with some stats about Best Friends Day.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, I love a stat.

[Jenna Fisher]

Did you know there are actually two Best Friend days?

[Cassie Jerkins]

No.

[Jenna Fisher]

One is national and one is international.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, that's always a little confusing. You know, if you're on the social media and you do the hashtag and you see people doing National Best Friends Day or whatever it is. National Cat Day, you did international, and then you're like, oh, crap, which one is it?

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I'll tell you now.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

This Sunday, June 8, is National Best Friends Day, and that was established in 1935 by our United States Congress.

[Angela Kinsey]

How about that?

[Jenna Fisher]

I didn't even know that they were the ones who did that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

They wanted to honor the bonds of friendship and recognize the positive impact that friends have on our lives. And they chose June 8th because it is generally a time of good weather across the whole country, making it a pleasant time of year to spend time outdoors with your friends. So I think they're wanting you to

[Angela Kinsey]

get outside everybody and do something with your BFF.

[Jenna Fisher]

Exactly. Then in 2011, the United nations declared July 30 as international friend Friendship Day. And this was to recognize the importance of friendships in promoting peace and understanding among communities and nations.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I like both of those.

[Jenna Fisher]

And then, you know, there's a lot of ways you can celebrate Best Friends Day this Sunday. But, Cassie, I think you would like this way. The New York Public Library made a list of 15 novels about friendship to read with your bestie.

[Cassie Jerkins]

That sounds awesome.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. They said these novels feature a range of friendship stories, from lighthearted and affirming to explorations of how friendships can break apart and come back together. So we can put a link to them in stories.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Yes, please.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, you know, it's my belief that one of the reasons the office was such a huge success and continues to be is because at its core, it's centered around friendships.

[Jenna Fisher]

Mm.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, I think maybe Michael said it best.

[Jenna Fisher]

The people that you work with are, just, when you get down to it, you are very best friends.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Aw.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. And, you know, according to the Internet, and there are a lot. A lot of articles about the Friendships that are on the office. But here is one that lists the 10 best friendships in their opinion.

[Jenna Fisher]

Ready?

[Angela Kinsey]

Number 10, Aaron and Phyllis.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, they were very sweet. Number nine is the only threesome. Oscar, Angela and Kevin. Best friends.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sure.

[Angela Kinsey]

Number eight, Jim and Michael. Number seven, Aaron and Nellie. Number six, Jim and Pam. They did start as good friends.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sure.

[Angela Kinsey]

Number five, Phyllis and Stanley. I mean, come on. Yeah, right. Number four, Phyllis and Angela were listed as friends. Yes.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Huh.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. Maybe more like frenemies for those two. A little bit. Number three, Dwight and Pam, which I love. Dwight calls Pam his best friend.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Number two, Michael and Dwight. And I would say yes. I mean, that's who Dwight wanted to be his best man.

[Jenna Fisher]

Exactly.

[Angela Kinsey]

Number one on the list of best friends at the office. Any guesses?

[Jenna Fisher]

No. Who's left?

[Cassie Jerkins]

Is it Kelly and Ryan?

[Jenna Fisher]

That's the only person I could think of. No.

[Cassie Jerkins]

It's such a strange thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is. Everyone unanimously online said the number one best friendship on the office, Michael and Holly. No, but that's good, Sam. That's really good. Jim and Dwight. I know that's what they said. They had their ups and downs, but in the end, you know, Jim says, oh, my gosh. Remember that line? He's like, I can't believe I'm saying this. I miss Dwight. I mean, they sort of had this weird dude on and off again, friendship. But this is up for discussion because I feel like they left a few really big ones off the list. I think Andy and Darryl became good friends. Pam and Michael. Yes, Pam and Michael.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thank you.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. And then, you know, I do like that they say Angela, Oscar and Kevin. But I think Angela and Oscar had their own true friendship.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, I agree.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then I would say they left off one. If they're gonna put Phyllis and Angela on there. I think there's a frenemies category for Angela and Pam. But see what I mean? There's so many friendships that grow over the years of this show, and people watch that and they feel it. And I think it's so wonderful that one of the biggest takeaways from watching the office are these friendships that people connect to.

[Jenna Fisher]

And the friendships represent the very wide range of friendships.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is true.

[Jenna Fisher]

Which includes, I think, the category of frenemies. Or it includes, like, you're sort of like, how did this person become my friend? But they are, you know, like, it kind of covers all the different categories.

[Angela Kinsey]

Are the friend that drives you crazy and you prank, but you end up planning their bachelor party.

[Jenna Fisher]

Exactly. Well, we got a letter Speaking of frenemies that I wanted to read. It's from Allison S. In Edmonton, Canada, who said, my best friend is named Lauren. We worked together as dance teachers. When she was first hired, I did not like her. She was given some classes I wanted to be teaching and I felt an instant rivalry. Luckily, with time, her charm cleared away any thoughts of rivalry and forced me to admit she was awesome. And I was thrilled when it seemed we could instead become friends. Our friendship took off when we helped each other box dye our hair in her bathtub and realized we both did a terrible job.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jenna Fisher]

We had splotchy hair color for weeks. And our connection solidified when we took a work trip to Disney World and were paired together for everything from rides to sharing a bed. When she got married in a small family only ceremony, I was asked to be there as the photographer. I have zero photography experience.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh.

[Jenna Fisher]

And felt so lucky to be included in the day. Her husband agreed that there was no way I could miss it. They've moved to Seattle now, and while the distance is so hard, we used to live across the street from each other. We're still best friends and have video chats and voice memos to tide us over in between visits. She's changed my life forever. We both love Office Ladies and have frequently compared our friendship to Jenna and Angela. I love that they started kind of as frenemies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love their whole story about them dyeing their hair and it being all patchy. Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I also love that they stay in touch with voice memos and video chat because there's been many times in our lives, in our friendship when we weren't in the same city. And we did that. And I knew your whole life because we were so dedicated to sharing and keeping each other in the loop. And that's so special.

[Jenna Fisher]

So cool. I loved it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, up next, I have a fun thing for us to do and you guys can do this with us. I'll put a link in stories, but buzzfeed did an online quiz to determine who would be your best friend at the office if you worked at Dunder Mifflin.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Oh.

[Angela Kinsey]

So, all right, how do we do it? Well, everyone go to their phones. I am texting you a link. We all have to do it individually and and then we have to share our answer. I'm going to read the questions that we're all going to do out loud so people will know.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

First one, what do you do in your free time? The choices are self defense lessons, hang out with friends, doodle At a cafe. Illegal stuff. Cook. Perfect. My comedy routine. Shop or yoga class.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, I did it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, next one.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Ready?

[Angela Kinsey]

How would you describe yourself? Talented. Above average. Relaxed. Inspirational. Cool. Resourceful.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sweet.

[Angela Kinsey]

Smart.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Okay. All right.

[Angela Kinsey]

What is your place in the office? Are you the moral support? The queen? The best. The boss? The prankster? The snacker? The comedian? The glue.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, Angela, I need to know what you're pressing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Why?

[Jenna Fisher]

Because I just need to know the answer. I need to know your assessment of yourself on this question.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. I would say I'm the glue.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sam. Cassie, how do we feel about her answer?

[Sam Kieffer]

I put I'm the glue.

[Cassie Jerkins]

I put I'm the glue.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, my gosh. I'm the queen. But, Angela, I had you as the snacker.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, you could have.

[Cassie Jerkins]

I probably put you for moral support.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fisher]

I would have thought of you as moral support or the snacker. But I've decided be the queen.

[Cassie Jerkins]

That's good.

[Sam Kieffer]

Well, the queen and three glues is perfect.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Beautiful.

[Jenna Fisher]

Is that how we do office ladies?

[Angela Kinsey]

That keeps us. That keeps us all going. Okay, what's your dream job? Model? Actor? Multi millionaire. Athlete? CEO, Painter, Entrepreneur? Or vocalist?

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, I put entrepreneur.

[Angela Kinsey]

Are we sharing now?

[Host/Interviewer]

Why not?

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

It makes it more interesting, I think.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Sam, what did you put?

[Ad Voice]

Athlete.

[Angela Kinsey]

Cassie.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Athlete.

[Angela Kinsey]

I put athlete.

[Jenna Fisher]

Who am I? I am the outlier of this group.

[Angela Kinsey]

Favorite subject? Drama. Robotics. Physical education. Art. After school. Clubs. School. Question mark. Band and lunch.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm gonna put drama.

[Angela Kinsey]

I put drama as well.

[Sam Kieffer]

Art.

[Cassie Jerkins]

I put drama.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, I like it. Pick a hobby. Internet trolling. Comedy. Competitive eating. Running. Programming. Debate. Volunteering. Yoga.

[Jenna Fisher]

I put Internet trolling. Oh, Jenna, I'm kidding. I put yoga. Oh, my gosh. I found out who I am.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my God. I found out who I am.

[Sam Kieffer]

I found out who I am.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Okay, I kind of already knew who I was going to be paired with, and it makes complete sense.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Go, Sam.

[Sam Kieffer]

I am with Pam. Me and Pam could take art lessons together. We're both kind and have a great sense of humor.

[Jenna Fisher]

I like that.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Sure.

[Jenna Fisher]

Cassie. Who are you?

[Cassie Jerkins]

Michael. You and Michael probably met at an improv class. Which you both failed. You love to make people laugh.

[Sam Kieffer]

You both failed.

[Cassie Jerkins]

We definitely did, Mike.

[Angela Kinsey]

Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Who are you?

[Angela Kinsey]

Maybe I hit a wrong button.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Jim.

[Jenna Fisher]

You're Jim.

[Angela Kinsey]

It says you and Jim would be best buddies. You love to prank your co workers. I do not.

[Jenna Fisher]

You hate pranks.

[Angela Kinsey]

I hate pranks. And you like to relax with your family at the end of the day. That part's true.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, and you are the likable everyman of the office ladies group, Angela. Well, okay, so that tracks. Guess who I'm friends with.

[Angela Kinsey]

Wait, wait.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Ryan Entrepreneur.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm with Jan. I'll take it. I'll take it.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's a good one.

[Jenna Fisher]

Buy one of your candles.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my goodness. That was so fun. Okay, I'll put the quiz in our stories, too.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, listen, before we go to break, I wanted to share something. This is a personal share. I wanna share that I am on the COVID of USA Today's and Media Planet's Future of Cancer Care campaign. It's like a little magazine, you know, that they put inside the newspapers. I'm on the COVID Wow. It's in honor of National Cancer Survivors Day, which was this past Sunday, June 1st. And I spoke about my journey, and I do that really just in hopes that it might bring comfort to others. And they asked me for a photo for the COVID and I didn't know what to give because I haven't done a photo shoot since my hair fell out and it started growing back. I did a picture that Josh took of me when I announced, but I didn't have any other pictures. But then I remembered I did have this one picture that I took was when I was doing my campaign for screening time off. I pulled the photographer aside and I said, I'm getting my port out in two weeks. And I have not taken a picture with it because it's like a thing. Like, I feel conflicted about it. I had this very, like, love, hate relationship with this port. It's visible. Yes. And it's not gruesome.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's not gruesome, but it's definitely, you know, that there's something there. And your shirt's covered it, but. Yes, but it would be visible to the eye.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. It's like a bump under the skin. And so I showed it and he took a photo of me. And that's the picture that I shared with them. And it was an important thing for me to have. And then it became kind of an important thing for me to share.

[Angela Kinsey]

I think.

[Jenna Fisher]

I hope that anyone who is going through that will just maybe, I don't know, find something in that picture.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. You know, I was with you when you had it removed, and that was emotional day for you. That was such a book into such a journey you had been on.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I think that's wonderful that you shared that, Jenna.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. I mean, that's a nice share. In honor of Best Friends Day, Lee was away shooting his movie in Oklahoma but they said they could schedule me to get my port out. And, Angela, I said to you. I said, well, I guess I'm going to have to put this off for, like, two months. I'm going to have to have this port in me because Lee's not home. And you said, oh, no, sweetie, no,

[Angela Kinsey]

we're getting that done.

[Jenna Fisher]

She's like, I've listened to you for one year about this thing. I will get you to the hospital. And I had other moms who each took my kids after school and let them spend the night so that I could recover. And it was just, you know, again, friends coming together.

[Angela Kinsey]

The community of friendship. Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Who made that happen for me? And now it's out. And I have this. I have a scar, which I knew I would have. And I assumed that it wouldn't bother me. I thought, I don't care. I have tons of scars from my surgery, from under my arm, you know, around my breasts. I have scars, and none of them bother me, so I just assumed that the port scar wouldn't bother me. And I don't like it.

[Angela Kinsey]

You don't like it?

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't. And some people will get, like, a tattoo over it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Have you considered getting a tattoo?

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't want a tattoo over it. I feel like that's just gonna make me see it more somehow.

[Angela Kinsey]

And you did consider getting a tattoo?

[Jenna Fisher]

I did consider getting a tattoo.

[Angela Kinsey]

Just not there, but just to sort

[Jenna Fisher]

of, like, in honor of this experience.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

But then I got a fake tattoo for Lee's movie, and I didn't like my fake tattoo. Like, I liked it, but I didn't like that. There was, like, something that kept catching my eye.

[Sam Kieffer]

What was your tattoo gonna be?

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I thought that I might wanna get a little drawing of the antique bell that I rang after I finished chemo.

[Sam Kieffer]

Oh, okay. I like that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Or a butterfly. These were my two options, but I'm getting neither, as it turns out. And I'm also not getting a tattoo over my port scar. But, yeah, it's just that, like, all the other scars, I can avoid them somehow, visually. Like, I don't see them. But this one, every time I get out of the shower, there's porty scar. And then, like, I wanted to wear a sundress when we went to Hawaii, and it's like, there it is, and I just let it hang out. Like, I'm not gonna, like, change how I dress or change anything because it's there, but it bumps me. And I. I don't know. Maybe that'll go away eventually. And I know that a lot of people try to pump me up and they're like, it's your battle scar. You're a warrior. And I'm trying to frame it that way in my head.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, I just think it's new and you don't love change. Like why? You need a little bit of time, I guess. And you'll have time with it and it'll be fine. Yes, you'll get used to it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, anyway, you can look for the magazine inside of USA Today. It came out in Chicago this past weekend. It's going nationwide this coming weekend. But you can also find it online. We'll put a link to the article in our show notes. And Angela, will you swipe it up in our stories?

[Angela Kinsey]

Of course.

[Jenna Fisher]

I also have it linked in my bio on Instagram. So if you have someone going through a cancer journey, maybe it'll be of service to them.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I just love all of that. And you know what? We're going to take a break and when we come back, we are going to share our very first friendship stories

[Jenna Fisher]

and some of yours.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

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[Angela Kinsey]

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[Angela Kinsey]

While we're back, and I'm gonna go first. I'm gonna talk about my very first best friend. She's still a dear friend of mine to this day. Her name is Karinsa, and her mom, Karina and my mom were best friends in Indonesia. They played tennis together, and we were always at each other's houses. She has a big family with lots of older siblings, and there was just always so much, like, hubbub in her house, and I just loved it. And her mom, Karina, is Dutch, and she introduced me to my favorite thing, which is mayonnaise with French fries. Oh, do you guys eat mayonnaise on your French fries?

[Sam Kieffer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Cassie Jerkins]

I do. Ranch.

[Angela Kinsey]

Ranch. Well, yeah. Okay.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Yeah. Pretty close.

[Angela Kinsey]

But she. Anyway, isn't that just such a funny thing that I remember? Like, she'd probably be like, angela, I introduce you to so many foods, but you remember mayonnaise and French fries. And Krince's dad is American. He was working overseas like my dad. And we were so tiny when we met. I was a toddler, and Karina's two years younger than me. She was just like a little thing in, like, diapers. And I don't have a memory of my childhood that doesn't include her in that time.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Wow.

[Angela Kinsey]

It was like she was just always part of my life because I met her when I was so little.

[Jenna Fisher]

Was she in Indonesia the whole time you were, or did one of you who moved away first?

[Angela Kinsey]

I moved away first.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. And we're still good friends to this day. We check in with each other a lot. We text each other. She is a librarian, and she's been a librarian for over 20 years now at a middle school in Austin, Texas. She is so smart and so funny and just an amazing person. And I'm so thankful that I have this childhood friend from such a special time in my life that I'm still in touch with, you know, because when I started middle school, we moved around a lot, and I really just hold close those friendships from back then. So shout out to Corinth.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, a lot of the letters we got were from people whose first best friend is still their best friend.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. You know what? I wanna read one from Alana D. In Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She wrote in and said, my best friend Cassie and I met when we were three. And she says, I remember the day I was new to daycare and always sad when my mother left, Cassie started after me and I Remember her first day. I knew then that it would all be okay. We've weathered so much all over the world. We've noticed how our conversations and how we care for one another have changed over the years. In our teens, we vetted each other's crushes. In our 20s, we nursed hangovers and traveling bugs. In our 30s and 40s, we took mom getaways and talked about our aches and pains as we were aging. Most recently, Cassie came to Pittsburgh from Boston after I was diagnosed with breast cancer to be with me for the first whirlwind day of appointments. Her presence and us still being able to be us turned a potentially terrible day into something beautiful. She later came to help me recover after my bilateral mastectomy and spent days caring for me. Her family and boss okayed this time away, and I am grateful for how others also honor and give space for our friendship. We are soulmates, and I know we can face anything that life brings together. Today was my last round of chemotherapy, and we are already planning our next adventure.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, my gosh.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's so sweet. Yes, Alana, thank you so much for sharing that. What a wonderful friendship.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I love that letter. I love their friendship. I actually pulled a letter from Carly B. In Newark, Texas, and it is again about a friendship that started when they were very young. Here's what Carly said. Carly said. My best friend London and I have been besties since we were seven years old. We are now both in our 30s and living 800 miles apart, but are still bonded together as if we live right down the road from each other. My husband has my caller ID as light of my life and. And he has London's caller ID as light of my wife.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's really cute.

[Jenna Fisher]

We are incredibly different people with incredibly different opinions on literally everything, but we are also the exact same person. Somehow it makes sense. We have this bit that's been running for so many years now, and it's hilarious every time it happens. I am a notoriously clumsy person and will drop food on myself at least once a day if we're together. London will see that I've dropped food on myself and immediately smudge a bite of her food on her clothing in solidarity with me. And we laugh until we can't breathe every time it happens. We talk all the time about the similarities between our friendship and y'. Alls. We love y' all and the podcast so much. Thanks for all you ladies do.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that she smudges food.

[Jenna Fisher]

I know. Isn't that so fun?

[Angela Kinsey]

That is so Fun. Well, Jenna, do you have a share about your very first best friend?

[Jenna Fisher]

I do. And, you know, I lost touch with my very first best friend. I don't know her anymore, but her name was Beth, and she lived up the street from me. We just lived in the same cul de sac.

[Angela Kinsey]

Sure.

[Jenna Fisher]

And we were inseparable. And I loved going over to her house. Her mom would not let her eat sugar stuff, like sugar snacks or junk food, but she had this bowl of sugar free candy lozenges, and I thought they were, like, the best thing on the planet.

[Angela Kinsey]

Isn't it funny the little things you remember?

[Jenna Fisher]

Mm, yes. But we would just, you know, we would ride bikes and do things in the neighborhood, and I loved her so much. And then her family moved.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh.

[Jenna Fisher]

And I didn't get an address for her. It was sort of very sudden.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. I mean, this is sort of part of our generation, is that there weren't ways to stay in touch the same way there are now. And I think because my mom and Corinth's mom were such good friends.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

That that was the bridge for us because we were little, we were young. I didn't. There was no social media. There was no cell phones. You know, you moved, you got a new phone number. You know, all those things.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, this was unfortunately, like, a common theme for me in that I would bond with someone and then their family would move. So Beth was my friend, and we were. I don't know, like, I feel like we were like, six, seven, eight years old. And then I just, like, didn't have a great friend for years. And then I became friends with this gal, Lauren, who also lived a little further in my neighborhood, but who I met at school, and we became besties, like, inseparable. I was so excited to have a friend again.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

And then she moved away. Oh, no. But at least this time we were older. We were in middle school when she moved away, and I just was devastated. My mom recognized it. I did a trip where I flew by myself to see her in Boston, and she flew out to see me in Missouri once. But then again, like, kind of after that, we sort of lost touch when we were in high school. And so, you know, I've had kind of throughout my life, I've had these people who kind of, like, come and go. And now that I'm talking about it, I'm like, wow, I wonder how that affected me. But I did have a very best friend in high school and then one in college, and I sort of, like, get a best friend for each season of my life. But, Ang, you're the one that stuck. I mean, I'm still friends with my high school and college best friends, but, like, you know. Yeah. I've also gone through periods of my life where I didn't really have a best friend. Like a true, like, tell you everything, best friend.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I've had both. Well, I think we just met at our perfect time in our life for each other, you know, and now we're older and we are in charge of, like, all of our life, you know, and we're not being moved by someone else and we can stay in touch. And I'm so proud of our friendship. And I tell this to people all the time that ask me about our friendship. Is that, you know, like any other relationship in your life, to be a good friend, you have to put the time in.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And even if distance happens or life happens, be like, all right, we have a phone date to catch up and you just, like, you work for the friendship.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, both people, Alana and Carly, in both of their friendships, there was a move.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

You know.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sam, Cassie, do you have, like, very first best friends that you remember from growing up?

[Cassie Jerkins]

Yeah, My best friend's name was Amber, and we would play in this canyon behind her house, and we were just totally like animal lovers and bonded over just being out in the woods. She meant a lot to me.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Are you still in touch with her?

[Cassie Jerkins]

Kind of like on Instagram. But I moved to a different town when I was like 11, and when we came back, we were just totally different people at that point.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Sam Kieffer]

My childhood best friend, his name was Jared, this is in Watertown, Wisconsin. Used to ride our bikes around until the street lights came out. Then it was time to come home.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Sure.

[Sam Kieffer]

I lost Tuck of him. He went into the military around September 11th and isn't really online, but I should look him up.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that's the thing too. I feel like it's might be easier to find people now. I have a very dear friend, Kate, that was my middle school buddy that we stayed in touch for years. I went to Australia to see her. She came to the US to see me. And then one day the card I sent her came back and I haven't been able to find her. So I love this idea of finding people that meant something to us and reconnecting.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, we had another category of letters that we got from people. A lot of people sent in stories of how the office brought them together into their friendship. I really loved this one. From Becca M. In Edmonds, Washington, who said, I like the both of you have the most amazing best friend. Her name is Lisa and we have been BFFs for 15 years. We met in college and pretty quickly became inseparable. She has been a supportive and loving person that I can always turn to. She even supported me in my own breast cancer scare. With love and laughter. We both have loved the Office since day one in college. We watched episodes together and totally fangirled over the romance of Jim and Pam, Angela and Dwight, and in my opinion, couples goals. Phyllis and Bob Vance Vance refrigeration. And then she goes on to explain that for her bachelorette party, her best friend threw her an office themed girls weekend. They got an Airbnb and she decorated with a sign that said it is your bachelorette party with half blown up balloons. They had fake tattoos that said that's what she said. And also the face of Prison Mike. And then she just said, I couldn't think of a better prompt to email about because I love the friendship between you two. I always feel like I'm hearing a conversation between Lisa and myself when I tune in for the next installment of Office Ladies. And I hope everyone out there has their own Lisa because she's pretty effing amazing. Thanks for giving me an excuse to brag about my bestie.

[Angela Kinsey]

Aw, I love that. I love it when people have office themed parties. It just delights me. They have office themed baby showers, bachelorette weddings, and of course, birthdays.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Isn't that so fun?

[Jenna Fisher]

It's so adorable.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jen and I gave Sam and Cassie each a birthday card that had the Office Ladies party planning committee on the front. And we cut out little pictures of their faces and put them on Phyllis. We found a picture where they were both leaning the same way Phyllis was leaning. Anyway, it just tickles me. And I love that the show still brings people together. Our next section is about best friendships in movies. I looked up the top 15 best friendship movies and Jenna in the top 15. By the way, this made top 15 top 10 of several lists like this online.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is a movie that you and I went and saw in the theater together on a BFF date.

[Jenna Fisher]

We did?

[Cassie Jerkins]

Yeah. Oh.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, wait. I think I know. It's the. It's the one with the pants.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. Directed by our very own Ken Kwapus. We went to the theater to support the movie.

[Jenna Fisher]

I remember.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, it was so good. And it's such a good BFF movie.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. And can you Believe that movie date of ours was 20 years ago.

[Host/Interviewer]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, lady, I looked it up. Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants is having its 20th year anniversary this year.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh my God.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know, it's crazy. It's also out on digital. Maybe we should watch it together again.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

20 years of friendship.

[Jenna Fisher]

20 years of friendship of those pants just traveling away.

[Angela Kinsey]

Traveling the world.

[Jenna Fisher]

Lady. I have my blow up movie screen. We could do like an outdoor summer movie night and watch Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that would be so fun. We would have to take a picture together and send it to Ken.

[Jenna Fisher]

We would.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, so that one made almost all of the lists, but we were also curious to hear from everyone about what their best friendship movies are.

[Jenna Fisher]

I have two favorite best friendship movies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

My second favorite that used to be my first favorite is Thelma and Louise. I love the friendship between these two women in this movie that was number

[Angela Kinsey]

one on this top best friendship movie list.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I believe it because I remember seeing it when it came out and it was kind of the first time I had seen female friendship portrayed that way in a movie. And it was like very. It hit me. It definitely. She has this speech at the end of the movie, Geena Davis's character where she just says to Susan Sarandon, she's like, hey, I just want you to know I can't go back to my old life. Something has shifted in me. And Susan Sarandon is like, oh, honey, I know. And it's just like, it gives me chills. It's just like this journey they go on and they are changed forever. And I felt like when I saw the movie, it kind of changed something in me about women supporting women. It was just.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

And then my favorite best friendship movie though is Muriel's Wedding.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love it so much. And it's similar. It's similar. It's just like a movie about best friends and they're so great and they have each other's back and I just love it so much.

[Angela Kinsey]

Sam, Cassie, do you have a favorite best friendship movie?

[Cassie Jerkins]

I've talked about this movie before, but Faddoms is just so good about like queer women and being gross and, you know, just stumbling through high school together. But coming together I think is just really beautiful.

[Jenna Fisher]

Their comedic comedy together in that movie is so infectious. Like I. I could watch four hours of them.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Same.

[Angela Kinsey]

I have to put that on my list. I haven't seen it.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's so good.

[Sam Kieffer]

Okay, I would say either in Bruges if you've seen that one. I love that And Brendan Gleason.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's a great one.

[Sam Kieffer]

Or there's this movie, it's about four really good friends. One of them has to return a ring and his three friends help him. It takes like nine hours, but it's really, really good.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's really, really good. And they have multiple goodbyes.

[Sam Kieffer]

Oh, they do. If you love friends.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I'll have to check that out.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, one of my favorite friendship movies, and I didn't think about that one, Sam, but that's right up there. But mine is actually Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

It just had its 20 year anniversary and it was re released in the theaters. And I went with my friend and it was so great. I have a friend that every year we meet and watch Pride and Prejudice. Her name is Tess. I just, I love this tradition that we have. But in the movie there is a friendship by love. It's between the characters Charlotte Lucas and Elizabeth Bennet. And, you know, they're these young girls and they've grown up together. Now they're having to figure out the next chapter of their life, marriage, all of that. And they can laugh and be silly, but then they can also get very real with one another. And I think that is true friendship when you just have to be real and be honest and you work through it and you get to the other side. And Charlotte has a speech that I love. She has just accepted the hand in marriage from Mr. Collins, who, you know, everyone thinks Mr. Collins is a bit of an idiot. And she goes to tell Elizabeth this. I saw Joe Wright interviewed about this speech and how it came about. And it's so interesting. I loved it so much. I want you to hear it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

Off with Charlotte Lucas.

[Jenna Fisher]

She's considered like the ultimate millennial in

[Angela Kinsey]

an attitude because of her line, I'm

[Jenna Fisher]

27 years old, I've no money and no prospects. I'm already a burden to my parents.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm frightened.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I've been told that. And it reminds me of the, you know, of that scene being written. Deborah. Margaret wrote the screenplay and did an amazing, amazing job. And then we asked Emma Thompson to help with a little bit of the dialogue. And I went round to her house, very nervous, with my little briefcase, and. And we walked up onto Hampstead Heath and she said, sit down, take out your notebook and take notes. So as she improvised scenes, I wrote them down. And that was one of the scenes that she improvised on that hill on Hampstead Heath. And I remember her just coming out with those lines and me scribbling them Down. And then her ending with. Don't judge me, Lizzie. Don't you dare judge me.

[Jenna Fisher]

Don't judge me, Lizzie. Don't you dare judge me.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Wow.

[Angela Kinsey]

Isn't that brilliant? Emma Thompson improvised that speech. Anyway, I'm such a fan of hers, but I just loved that creative collaboration that Joe Wright brought into this movie. But I loved that moment in Charlotte and Lizzie's friendship. And then they got through it, you know, and they were there for each other as their lives were changing, and so much of it was beyond their control, and they were still there for each other. Anyway, I just. I love that movie. I love that friendship.

[Jenna Fisher]

I've never seen that movie.

[Sam Kieffer]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

What? It's my favorite movie. I rewatch it all the time. Like, if I can't sleep, I put on Pride and Prejudice.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's your edge.

[Cassie Jerkins]

It's.

[Jenna Fisher]

You're the edge.

[Angela Kinsey]

It is. I can't believe you've never seen it.

[Jenna Fisher]

I've never seen it. I should see it, I guess.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. Yes, you should. In fact, I need it for our friendship. Okay, here's my call to action.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right?

[Angela Kinsey]

To know me is to know how much I love this movie.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay?

[Angela Kinsey]

I need you to see it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

Done.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

I will watch it this year.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that would make me so happy.

[Jenna Fisher]

I can't wait.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, don't watch it when you're distracted. Put some alone time there.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, so not while, like, on a lunch break, like I did with Lord of the Rings, and you guys all gave me trouble for it.

[Angela Kinsey]

I will be wounded.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay? I will not.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's like, when we were gonna watch the Edge. You're like, ange, you can't make fun of it. It means too much to me.

[Jenna Fisher]

I did. Okay, I see that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Cassie Jerkins]

All right.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, deal. Well, listen, why don't we take a break, and then when we come back, I did do a deep dive on friendship. There's. People have studied it, and I found some stuff that was interesting to me.

[Angela Kinsey]

Fantastic.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'll share it. All right.

[Host/Interviewer]

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[Jenna Fisher]

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[Angela Kinsey]

Chosen foods.

[Host/Interviewer]

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[Angela Kinsey]

Well, we're back, and I'm very excited for your friendship. Deep dive.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, lady, I love anecdotes. I love studies. I love research projects.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is true.

[Jenna Fisher]

And I was Googling and I found that in 2011, Snapchat did a research project called the Friendship Report, and their goal was to examine the state and nature of friendships around the world.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

So I read the report, and Very lengthy.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was gonna say. How long is it?

[Jenna Fisher]

It's very long.

[Angela Kinsey]

And you read the whole thing?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. Wow. I mean, I love this for my free time. I love to read a lengthy research report. It just gives me joy. And this is probably why I'm Jan. I'll just mention a few of the things that really struck me in reading the report. It showed how people were really good at making friends when they were younger. However, in our 30s and 40s, friendships became both harder to make and harder to maintain. And then they listed the most common stressors to a friendship. These are the most common reasons why a friendship ended.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

And most commonly in your 30s and 40s. Number one was a new love. Like one of the friends got a new love.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right.

[Jenna Fisher]

Number two was parenthood. Someone became a parent. Number three was employment. So something having to do with getting busy at work or changing jobs or something. Number four was loss of a loved one. And number five was relocation. In fact, I actually read these in no particular order because relocation was the top reason people lost touch with a friend. Physical distance. I was looking at that list, and I have lost a friend for all five of those reasons. You know, I shared that my first two best friends I lost over relocation.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

But, yeah, all those things.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

But then I also made friends in those categories. So. Like, when I fell in love with Lee, he brought new friendships into my life. Right. And when I became a parent, I became friends with new people from that category. Right. You know, so, yeah. Kind of interesting.

[Angela Kinsey]

I think it's right on. I mean, I can check a few of those boxes as well.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, they also in this report had suggestions for how to make friends.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

And this one really stood out to me. Their first piece of advice for making new friends is to assume. People like you just assume.

[Angela Kinsey]

Can that be a little dangerous? Isn't that a slippery slope? Because, like, you're like, yeah, they like me. And they're like, no.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, here's what they said. Researchers found that when people were told that they would be accepted into a group, even when it wasn't true, like, they would take a group of people who were already associated with themselves and introduce a new person, and they would tell this person, hey, this group is excited to meet you. They've already accepted you as their friend. And then they did it where they didn't tell that person.

[Angela Kinsey]

And so you entered the group with different confidence.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is that right? And confidence. People are attracted to confidence.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, what they said was the people who were told that they would be accepted, those people let their guard down more, they shared more, they disagreed less, and were just overall more positive. Researchers also discovered something called the liking gap.

[Angela Kinsey]

What is the liking gap?

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay. When strangers interact, you are smiling. I love anecdotes.

[Angela Kinsey]

You guys can't wait to tell me what the liking gap is.

[Jenna Fisher]

I live for this.

[Angela Kinsey]

You also look really cute today.

[Jenna Fisher]

Hey, thanks.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, Sam and I were talking about it. We love your hair. It's got a little swoop. It's. It's longer.

[Sam Kieffer]

It looks really nice today.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right?

[Jenna Fisher]

It's starting to finally turn.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then for a while, it was

[Jenna Fisher]

just growing up and out, and now it is starting to bend.

[Angela Kinsey]

Starting to lay down a little bit.

[Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then I love your top and your pants.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thank you so much.

[Angela Kinsey]

Anyway, whatever. Head to toe, cute outfit. Back to the liking gap.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, my goodness. Well, here's the liking gap. When strangers interacted with each other, they were asked later to estimate how liked they thought they were by the other person. And people routinely underestimate their likability. Like, their interpretation of if the other person liked them was not in sync with the reality that the person did like them. So they were using that as an example to say, like, you can assume that people will like you. Like, you are good enough. You are likable. Carry that into the room with you, everybody.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't know. I thought that could be helpful.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, I think it is helpful.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right. Here was their other suggestion for making friends.

[Angela Kinsey]

I am on board with this.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, good. Okay, good. Here's their other suggestion for making friends, which is don't wait for friendships to happen organically. Studies show that friendships take effort and initiative. And one of the suggestions was, you know, in the same way that when you're looking for love, you'll kind of do one of the, like, online matching things that, like, actually finding a friend online is a good Place to, like, take initiative and, you know, find someone who you might want to be friends, connect with. Yes. And we actually got a letter from Sani y in sunny Finland, who met her friend that way, who said, so basically, I met my best friend online. I think it was somewhere in the early 2010s. I'm Finnish and she's Hungarian. English isn't even our first language. And yet we still somehow became really close really fast. Our long distance friendship is very cool. And we have even met twice. Once in Hungary and once in Finland. Even if we won't see each other in years, we still connect. We FaceTime, text and call, send each other silly reels and laugh together through the phone. I know it's not an ideal friendship, but it's special for both of us. We always have a friend in our pocket.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I love that. That is something we did not have growing up. We did not have this online option. But, you know, as you were saying all of that, Jenna, it made me think of a family story that my sister tells. I hadn't thought about it in a long time, but as you were reading that, I was visiting my sister in the summer. You know, my sister's much older than me and she was married, and my parents had some work travel, and so I went and stayed with her for two or three weeks one summer. And I was, I don't know, maybe like 13 years old. Anyway, I got bored really quickly with just my sister and her husband. And, you know, I would just sit around. I was real bored. And so my sister was like, well, there had been this girl every day. We'd see her ride her bike down the street. And my sister was like, well, why don't you make friends with her? You know? And I finally was like, just bored enough that I had the courage. And I walked outside one day and my sister said as she rode her bike by, I stuck my foot out in front of her bike and I said, hey, you want to be friends?

[Jenna Fisher]

Did it work?

[Angela Kinsey]

She was like, okay. And then I borrowed a bike and we'd go ride bikes together for like a few weeks. We hung out. But it is kind of funny to me. I hadn't thought about that in a long time.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, you did it. You took some initiative. You did not wait for that. That is definitely not a friendship that started organically. No, that was initiative based.

[Angela Kinsey]

I blocked her bike with my body.

[Jenna Fisher]

Here was their third suggestion for how to make friend Pursue a group hobby.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

This is 100% how I made friends. When I first Came to Los Angeles 100%. Here are some suggestions. Take a yoga class. Libraries have book clubs. Pickleball. Join a pickup hockey game. Lee has made so many friends. He plays pickup hockey. He used to play soccer. He was on, like, a softball team. Like, sports is a great. Sports is great, right?

[Angela Kinsey]

Is improv, like, improv class on there?

[Jenna Fisher]

It wasn't, but it could be.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Take an improv class. You'll meet lots of people from all over.

[Jenna Fisher]

You will.

[Angela Kinsey]

What are you looking at me like that?

[Jenna Fisher]

Some people I met. Some people in improv classes are weird.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's how I made all of my friends.

[Jenna Fisher]

I know, but you will meet a Michael Scott in your improv class.

[Angela Kinsey]

You will. And I have collected a random assortment of people in my life. It's true.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, Sorry. Improv classes, they are a good place to meet people.

[Cassie Jerkins]

They are.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sam, I wanted to throw it over to you because I know that you have been on a journey this past year. It is a sobriety journey. And you have shared about this in other places on your Instagram and a little bit here on Office Ladies. But part of that journey has involved you having to make new friendships and connections.

[Sam Kieffer]

It has, yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Can you share a little bit about what that has meant for you?

[Sam Kieffer]

I would love to. Yeah. Making new friends this year has been weird and difficult. Making friends over 40 is difficult in general. And I just way overestimated how simple it would be. But it has been new this year. Taking classes, taking so many classes. Took a fencing class this Sunday and cello lessons and sign language classes and kickball classes and bowling classes. So, yeah, this year has just been an interesting experiment in meeting new people, meeting new sober people.

[Jenna Fisher]

Have any of those things that you've joined in your, like, effort to connect with new sober people, has it worked?

[Sam Kieffer]

Yeah, it has. Yeah. I've made a bunch of new friends that I wouldn't have met any other places outside of 12 step programs. It's been really, really nice.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's so great.

[Sam Kieffer]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, my sister, years ago, she'd gone through a divorce and moved and was really kind of starting over. And she had a student that year that she took it upon herself to learn sign language to help communicate with her students, parents, and she just started taking more and more classes and she found a community that she absolutely adored and she's dear friends with now. And even this week, she's here to visit me from Texas, and she's going to meet up with two of her friends she met.

[Sam Kieffer]

Oh, I love that.

[Angela Kinsey]

In this online sign language class.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Sam Kieffer]

That's awesome.

[Angela Kinsey]

So I just love that, Sam, I think that is showing great initiative about how do I meet people and have a shared interest on this new journey that I'm on.

[Sam Kieffer]

Thank you. It's been really, really weird and very lonely, but in a good way.

[Jenna Fisher]

I mean, how many times have you had to step into a room of strangers this last year? I mean, that is not easy to do.

[Sam Kieffer]

About once a week for this last year.

[Jenna Fisher]

That is courage. And are you assuming people like you?

[Sam Kieffer]

Oh, okay, here's the thing.

[Ad Voice]

No.

[Sam Kieffer]

And I made a mental note when you came across that thing earlier. I'm just not wired that way naturally. I'm naturally hardwired to not like myself. It's like a thing I'm dealing with in therapy and this. All this stuff. So that I, like, threw my hands up when you got to that point, as if it's just a decision to like yourself. That is crazy to me.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Sam, I can relate. I mean, this is the root of all of my social anxiety, is my incredibly loud self. Critic.

[Sam Kieffer]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

And so that's why that stood out to me, this idea that I could just assume people will like me. I'm like, what does that feel like?

[Sam Kieffer]

I will say all 52 times that I've walked into a room of new people this year. I've absolutely had that emotional hangover they call it on the way home where you're going through stuff you said, and you're like, oh, why did I say this? No one likes you. Everything was fine, by the way. But it's just replaying the night.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Sam, you know that I know exactly what you're talking about. I spiral often, so I definitely, definitely have had that experience. And you know what? Just thank you so much for sharing all that, because friendship is something that does elude people at various times in their life. It is not effortless, and it's not easy. So thank you for sharing.

[Sam Kieffer]

Thank you for having me.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Angela, this whole episode got me reflecting on the circumstances that led to our friendship. If I had to, like, name the main thing that led to our friendship. I'm talking, like, origin moment. Yes. I would have to say it was as simple as location. Proximity.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was gonna say proximity.

[Jenna Fisher]

We worked at the same place, but not just that our desks were right next to each other.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our desks backed each other up. You were the closest lady.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Gal next to me. Yep.

[Jenna Fisher]

And we got a fan letter that reminded me of the two of us. It is from Kristin R. In Buffalo, New York, who Said my best friend. Corey and I met in the office. We had just finished college and she just had a baby. But we were two peas in a pod from day one. We were assigned desks that connected.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Hey.

[Jenna Fisher]

And boy, did that come in handy. We used a headphone Jack Splitter to listen to music and podcasts together. One year for Halloween, we dressed as the SNL ladies from the Delicious Dish. She left the office after a few years to raise her kids. But I still work for the company almost 14 years later. I've had six promotions. She's had three more kids. They call me Auntie. We're practically family. And I'm forever grateful for our office.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that, you know, I'm so thankful for the proximity of our desks. But also, it was the first time we talked. There was just a familiarity about you. I just felt an instant comfort around you.

[Jenna Fisher]

You felt like home to me.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

You felt like here I was in the middle of Hollywood on a TV set. But you felt like a friend I would make back home.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. And it was just really simple, day to day life, things that we talked about, you know, and those are the things and the moments that get you through life. You know, big things come and go and swirl around you, but it's the day to day. I feel like that builds lasting friendships. And I went to my office early days journal and I have a little entry. And it's nothing flashy, it's just a simple entry, but I think it says everything about who we were then and why I love it so much. Are you ready?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Putting on my glasses. Back from lunch, Jen and I ate in her trailer. It's my favorite. She brought arm weights to keep in her trailer. And after we ate, she did some arm exercises while I talked. I showed her the push up thing I do on the counter. You know what I'm talking about?

[Cassie Jerkins]

I do. Of course.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's this like, lame pushup I do just leaning on a counter. Then I go on to say, maybe I'll get some weights too. Sitting at my desk now, it's so cold on set, I scooch my seat as far under my desk as it can go so the camera won't see my uggs. Jenna likes my hair today. It's a half up, half down look. I want her to come see the two hydrangeas I planted in my backyard. They are finally starting to bloom. I had them in pots and waited to plant them until I figured out which part of the yard got the most shade. It's riveting stuff here, guys. I go on to say, jenna and I don't work tomorrow, so we are going to the Beverly center to shop and have lunch in the food court. Wow, that's the shopping mall here.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I go on and say, I'm so excited. We never get days off together during the week. Parking is annoying. So I said, we should carpool. Yay. Alrighty. I better run.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love this journal entry.

[Angela Kinsey]

Isn't it just so simple?

[Jenna Fisher]

But that is it, lady. Like you saying, will you come see my hydrangea that I planted? Which, by the way, I remember doing, is why we're friends, because I couldn't wait to see them. I was like, yes, I'd love to come see those.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I just remember just us being in your trailer and our lunches there. It's no surprise to me that I wrote it's my favorite thing, because it's really. You know, being on set was so fun and acting on the office was so fun, but where I felt most like me was on our lunches in your trailer, where we just got to chit chat.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I remember a big swing that I took in our friendship, and I was so nervous. Like, I was like, sweaty palms. My, like, heart was, like, beating out of my chest.

[Angela Kinsey]

I literally don't know what you're about to say.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay. I had been at the mall, and I had gone by Claire's, and I saw that cheesy, like, best friend necklace where, like, one side says be fry and the other side says Saint Ends, but if you put them together, it says best friends. And I just had this instinct. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna get that for me and Angela. And then I realized we had never called each other best friends, but I knew you were my best friend. I did not have another best friend. I didn't even have another close friend at the time. And I remember standing in that Claire's and being like, do I buy it? What if I give it to her? And she's like, oh, thanks. Or is it too much too soon? But I bought it and I gave it to you, and you were like, oh, I love it.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Bff.

[Jenna Fisher]

And it was a little bit like saying, I love you for the first time in a relationship. And I was like, yes, we're besties.

[Angela Kinsey]

We're besties. You know, I loved it. I had just made us matching sweatshirts with our character names on them.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Well, everyone, thank you so much for joining us in this celebration of friendship and Best Friends Day.

[Angela Kinsey]

This was so wonderful. I love that our show brings people together. I love that our job brought us together. And I love hearing people's friendship stories.

[Sam Kieffer]

Actually, sorry, before we go, I brought in something from my journal today, if that's all right.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Wait, what? Sam.

[Sam Kieffer]

Sorry, do we have time?

[Angela Kinsey]

We do. This is a curve ball.

[Sam Kieffer]

I'll try and keep this short. There's just something I wanted to express to the three of you on air. In case something happens to me, I'd like these thoughts permanently recorded forever in clear posterity.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sam, your brain is hilarious.

[Sam Kieffer]

It's gonna start rough, but it'll perk up by the end, I promise.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Sam Kieffer]

This last year was a doozy for me. I got sober shortly after being let go from Sirius xm. Although it never affected my work in studio, the last decade of my life has been fairly controlled by drugs and alcohol behind the scenes. When I was let go from SiriusXM, I realized that the unlimited time and severance package would most assuredly result in an overdose if I didn't get help. And I did. I joined a 12 step program, got a sponsor, and dove in with full conviction. But as I'm learning is the case with most addicts, the real struggle is dealing with what lies underneath the character defects and trauma that I needed in them. With drugs and alcohol, this is the part where it gets good. I promise. Over the last five years, I've been doing this podcast. The three of you have systematically dismantled large parts of my brain that have been causing me pain. And like I said earlier, I just want it recorded in clear posterity the following. Angela, you have this kindness, this deep well of empathy, seemingly with no bottom. Your ability to love and care about people you've never met as well as those you have is truly inspiring. The way you listen to Jenna, truly listen and feel her pain when she's in pain, or remember things people have said for gifts later, or the way you check in on people who are going through a rough time, truly humbles me. Every time I interact with you, it fills my battery up to full.

[Cassie Jerkins]

Oh.

[Sam Kieffer]

Which I realize must be draining to you, so I want to say thank you for that. You have too much love and empathy to be trapped in a candy jar. Jenna, there's an old joke slash meme that goes, why do weak men date strong women? And the answer is because someone has to tell our server, I ordered a Diet Coke and not a regular one and it's not going to be me. I have learned so much about self respect from you, from the way you don't allow yourself to be spoken down to from the way you are clear about what you want out of life. And much like Angela, the way you don't allow your friends to be spoken to disrespectfully either. And also, much like Angela, I have modeled so much in my life this last year after you. I recognize that you don't get to be that strong without the world trying to give you some. So I want to say thank you for persevering in your own life. Your ability to overcome obstacles without letting it affect your worldview is extremely inspired. Cassie, you saved my life. When you started here, I was drowning in work. Your dedication to this podcast was immediately noticed and much like Jenna and Angela, you've changed my life just by being you. There is a quiet confidence to you. You seem to have such a clear vision of who you are. You genuinely seem to like yourself. And as is a theme with this speech, I've modeled much of my daily sober life around you. Your work life, balance, music playing and basketball has inspired me to take up a cello again and sign up for several classes to make my own sober life as enjoyable day to day as possible. I could go on and on about the ways that you three have changed my life, but I'll wrap it up here and just say this. Everything that I am better for from having known you three comes from you guys overcoming your own battles in life. You all have done so much inner work that it spills over and affects those around you. I just want to say that I see you and the work you've done. For the first time in a long time, I'm optimistic about my birthday and my life and my future because the three of you have taught me gratitude. That was the missing piece of my life. I live slower now, seeing and appreciating all that I have. And I have so much thanks to you 3. There's a phrase that I hate from years of working in food service, and that phrase is we are a family. Normally, when you hear that somebody's about to ask you to work on a Saturday when you took the day off, but Jenna and Angela, I really hope that you guys are proud of yourselves. You've achieved something so rare in the performance space. You have truly created a family. I know your fans feel the same way as they are part of that family too. Thank you for letting me be a part of this show and your family and I love you.

[Angela Kinsey]

We love you so much. We love you so much. Sam. Office ladies is not Office ladies without you. Sam.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, Sam. I mean, this is why. This is why we needed you back. Sam, I'm unprepared with how to explain what you bring to us as well. But this. You're not left out of the magic that happens here. But also, Sam, I have watched the grit and strength and resolve that you have gone into this sober living with, and it is also truly inspirational. I have watched you do silks.

[Sam Kieffer]

That's right.

[Jenna Fisher]

Cirque du Soleil silks. And I know that when you're doing that, I know the courage and vulnerability that it took for you to show up somewhere where you didn't know people, to do an activity that was aiding your sobriety.

[Angela Kinsey]

And

[Jenna Fisher]

I just. I am so glad that you are giving yourself the care that you deserve, because you deserve it. And we're just so happy that you're with us.

[Sam Kieffer]

Well, here's to another year, guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

Here's to another year.

[Angela Kinsey]

Here's to another year.

[Host/Interviewer]

Sam.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Love you.

[Angela Kinsey]

We love you so much.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fisher]

Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer, and our associate producer is Ainslie Bubico.

[Angela Kinsey]

Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese.

[Jenna Fisher]

Dennis Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.