Cowboys Weekly Edition - Season's End

Summary

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Cowboys Weekly Edition - Season's End

The Musers The Podcast, January 8, 2026
Hosts: George Dunham & Bob Sturm

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into another disappointing end to the Dallas Cowboys’ season. George and Bob reflect on the Cowboys’ 7-9-1 finish, playoff absence, and what’s gone wrong—from coaching decisions to organizational dysfunction—focusing especially on the last game, the Schottenheimer era, and the struggle to establish a winning culture. The hosts also break down the departure of DC Matt Eberflus, rebuilding the defense, and the ongoing tension between Cowboys head coaches and the influence of Jerry Jones. The episode closes with a nostalgic look at past Cowboys greatness and speculative NFL playoff predictions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Season’s End: Disappointment and Frustration

• The Cowboys ended 7-9-1, missing the playoffs for the second straight year, and for the 10th time in the last 16 seasons.
  • George Dunham: “Damn it, what’s wrong with Brian Schottenheimer? I thought he was getting us to the playoffs.” (00:16)
  • Bob Sturm recounts losing his bet on the Cowboys’ win total and being let down, especially after they traded away their best player early in the season.
• The season finale, a 34-17 loss to the Giants, typified the year’s low points: lack of energy, unprofessional play, and organizational confusion.
  • Bob: “It was a low IQ performance, which I suppose means everybody kind of gave up already… There has to be a professionalism about the way you go about your business.” (01:36)

The “Playing to Win” Controversy

• Schottenheimer had preached culture change and “playing to win,” but pulling Dak Prescott at halftime sent mixed signals.
  • George: “I saw other teams that didn’t have anything to play for—take the Detroit Lions—played their ever living tails off… For this team, I think it could have mattered a little bit. No, this is how we play.” (04:05)
  • Bob: Uses the Dan Campbell/Detroit example to highlight difference in coaching approaches, questioning if Schottenheimer (or any Cowboys coach) has true autonomy.
• The hosts question whether the decision to pull Dak was a coaching move or came from “on high.” A trusted Cowboys source tells George it was Schottenheimer’s choice, which leads to mixed feelings: “What are you doing?” (10:58)

Organizational Dysfunction & Coaching Power

• The hosts dissect the recurring issue of Cowboys head coaches lacking real authority due to Jerry Jones’ meddling.
  • Bob: “In the Jerry Jones era, he has hired a certain type of head coach, and that head coach invariably is willing to be submissive to the Jones family… You're only going to get submissive coaches.” (19:00)
  • George: Wonders if a great coach could ever win in Dallas under Jerry’s system. Bob concedes it’s possible “if the team is too good to fail,” but says the odds are slim without organizational change (22:27, 23:47).
  • The hosts critique Jerry's habit of holding impromptu press conferences that overshadow his coaches:
    Bob: “He wants to be the main character in the Dallas Cowboys story. And it comes with cost.” (26:51)

The Matt Eberflus Departure & Defensive Meltdown

• Eberflus is let go after fielding the worst defense in franchise history (“Over 500 points allowed. Third down defense was atrocious. Coverage was atrocious…”) (31:49)
  • George: “Somewhere in there, belief in [Eberflus] and the system stopped amongst the players.”
  • Bob: “This defense took a bad defense and became way worse… They don’t have the dogs” (54:53)
• The lack of player accountability, stubborn reliance on underperformers like Kenneth Murray, and confusion over defensive philosophy are all blamed.
  • Locker room chatter suggested players were happy to see Eberflus go because of his inflexible player usage (30:56).
• The Cowboys enter the offseason lacking quality defenders and direction, raising questions about future defensive coordinators and schemes.

Searching for the Next Defensive Coordinator & Identity

• The hosts run through possible candidates (Jim Leonhard, Jeff Ulbrich, Aidan Durde, Raheem Morris), emphasizing need for a leader with high standards and an identity.
  • George: “I want the defensive coordinator that it pains him to give up a first down… someone that comes in here and says ‘this is how we tackle. This is how we break down.’” (45:12)
  • Bob: Urges against the “shortcut” of veteran trades: “You need dogs. The only way to get them is in the draft.” (48:16)
• They call for a clear scouting/drafting philosophy tied to a consistent scheme, rather than the “man-chasing-butterfly” approach of recent years (50:01).

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

On Cowboys Culture and Jerry Jones’ Influence

• Bob Sturm (on Jerry Jones): “If you only hire from the pool of people that [Jerry] is convinced will never stage a mutiny or a coup… those guys are not candidates to completely take over the culture and establish an environment uniquely theirs.” (21:35)
• Bob: “He wants to be the main character in the Dallas Cowboys story. And it comes with cost. And the cost is his head coach is never given the full power of a head coach.” (26:51)
• George: “Let me ask you this. Am I naive to feel that if you have the right coach and the right players, you can still win here and win it all here?” (22:16)
• Bob: “Of course you can win here for sure… but if you need a complete overhaul of the culture, in the life of Jerry Jones you’re only going to get submissive coaches.” (22:31, 23:47)

Defensive Woes & Rebuilding Strategy

• George Dunham: “This was the worst Cowboys defense in the history of the franchise… Gave up over 500 points.” (31:49)
• Bob Sturm: “They don’t have the dogs… When people throw out, ‘Hey, let’s get Brian Flores’—do you think Brian Flores could take these guys and run his defense? There’s no way.” (38:11)
• George: “I’d only hang on to about six or seven of these guys on defense.” (34:46)

On Draft Philosophy

• Bob: “I think one of the reasons the Cowboys right now have such little talent on their defense is because they don’t have a global philosophy on what they’re looking for and stick with it.” (52:27)

On Coaching Mentality

• George: “I want someone that comes in here and says, this is how we tackle. This is how we break down… That’s the mentality I want here in Dallas.” (45:12)

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Important Timestamps

• Season Recap & Coaching Critique: 00:05 – 13:00
• Cowboys' Lack of Culture & Coaching Power: 17:38 – 23:47
• Jerry Jones' Influence and Press Conference Rant: 25:36 – 27:06
• Matt Eberflus Firing, Defensive Breakdown: 31:49 – 54:22
• Defensive Coordinator Candidates & Building Identity: 41:32 – 50:01
• Historical Cowboys Anecdote (1975/1976): 54:22 – 63:10
• NFL Playoffs & Super Bowl Predictions: 63:10 – 69:17

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1975/1976 Cowboys Nostalgia

• The show reminisces about the 1975 wild card team’s improbable run to Super Bowl X—contrasting today’s Cowboys with the culture, toughness, and standards of past teams.
  • Bob shares a Dallas Morning News recap from 1976’s NFC Championship win over the Rams:
    “No longer are the Dallas Cowboys a team of the past or of the future. They are now.” (58:57)
  • George: “Thanks for taking me back to a time that was much better, Bob, as a young Cowboys fan, just knowing, okay, these Pittsburgh Steelers are about to find out in Super Bowl 10 what the Vikings and Rams now know.” (63:07)

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Playoff Predictions

• George: Picks the Seattle Seahawks, praising their offensive line and defense, but notes concern over QB Sam Darnold (65:39)
• Bob: Leans toward a Bills-Rams Super Bowl, but admits he “does not have the slightest clue” in such an open year (66:40)
• Discussion highlights how this postseason, missing Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, and Joe Burrow, feels more unpredictable than ever.

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Closing

• Tease for next week: Bob will share what Dak Prescott said that annoyed him most.
• Final sendoff:
  • George: “We covered a lot of ground right there—unlike a Cowboy linebacker this year…” (68:54)
  • Bob: “I never circled back to what Dax said that annoyed me. So we're going to write that down for next week.” (69:10)

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Bottom Line:
This episode is a candid, often funny but ultimately sobering post-mortem of the Cowboys’ season, filled with organizational critique, hope for finding “dogs” in the draft, and longing for a winning culture. The chemistry and passion between George and Bob, as well as their historical knowledge, make it a must-listen for fans hoping for a better future—or simply longing for the past.

Transcript

[Bob Sturm]

Foreign.

[George Dunham]

It's the Muser is the podcast Cowboys edition Football friends, George Dunham, Bob Stern where we talk Cowboys despite another disappointing season. And we may just talk about this all offseason long until we're back in Southern California again. The season is over for the Cowboys at 7, 9 and 1. No playoffs for this second straight year and no playoffs for the 10th time in the last 16 years. And damn it, what's wrong with Brian Schottenheimer? I thought he was getting us to the playoffs. Bob, what's going on?

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, no, that's, that's a great point. I expected, I expected great times. I expected the Cowboys to hit the over Georgie and they did not.

[George Dunham]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Interesting.

[Bob Sturm]

Vegas is good.

[George Dunham]

So when Dak was sat down at halftime in that 34 to 17 debacle against the Giants to end the season, what did you say out loud?

[Bob Sturm]

Well, no, nothing. Nothing. In fact, I went to the Stars game. I was so excited about the Cowboys Giants. I went to the Stars game and said if I have to watch this horrible game, at least I can watch it later where I could fast forward through the commercials at halftime and make it a little less painful. So now here's the thing. If you're going to bet the over on a Cowboy win total, then you should probably be on pins and needles that they don't trade away after you place the wager their best player. And they did. And that was about the moment I said goodbye to any of the muser money that I had put put on this. And so I had died to death so many times. And in the words of Game of Thrones, what's dead may never die. And so I was already gone. And I had no false hopes about Sunday. I knew they were going to let me down. And honestly, everybody else was rooting for a loss so as not to screw up draft position. That's not really my block. I never root against my team. I, I never do. I never. I refuse to acknowledge there is good in losing. I think it's cancerous. And so Sunday was brutal. I did not enjoy Sunday at all. I think it's terrible football. I think in a certain level the organization should be a bit ashamed of itself. Not to sound like Norm here or anything, but George, there has to be a professionalism about the way you go about your business and if you're going to put your starters out there, which they did on defense for roughly the entire game, then dog gone at tackle and, and, and, and, and the personal fouls are nonsense. And. And just it was a low IQ performance, which I suppose means everybody kind of gave up already. And maybe we already knew that. And maybe they were just waiting for the final stick a fork and Matt Eberfluice, which. Which I have mixed emotions about, which I'm sure we will hash out here in our. In our time together today. But it was. It was one of those games, George, where you just say, take this away. I don't want to watch this nonsense for. For nine months.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, I know. And okay, here's my. I have two problems with what happened Sunday. And number one, I'm with you on for this team. I do like getting the better draft pick. I like that part about it.

[Bob Sturm]

Everybody wants a better draft.

[George Dunham]

Everybody wants that. But part of the Schottenheimer thing was we're changing the way we do things here. We're changing the culture here. And last week, leading into the game, it was no Dax playing. We're going to play to win and let's go. And I don't know, I saw other teams that didn't have anything to play for. Let's take the Detroit Lions played their ever living tails off.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

And beat Chicago. Could have knocked Chicago out of that second seed. They didn't, but they could have. And it gave them a winning season. Is that going to mean a hill of beans next September? I don't know, but I think it means something from January to next September. And for this team, I think it could have mattered a little bit. No, this is how we play. And we're not going. I'm not going to accept the losing season. And that just. It's incongruent with what I have been supporting with Brian Schottenheimer. And I get it, but I don't, you know, and it just left me with it. No, that's not what we're doing here. I thought we were trying to go out, you know, swinging, and they didn't.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, and I think that is. That's what we're dealing with here, is you and I in particular, the. The, you know, two of the leading optimists of cowboy football on the ticket. Our little radio station here in dfw, I believe we attempt to keep the faith almost to a point where it's mockable that by next July we'll be cranked up and ready for a Cowboy season of optimism and belief and all that. And we've kind of been those guys for many, many, many years. You probably since you had one of those little hats with the propeller on the top. But, but, but I got here as quick as I could. And I just want to say our optimism is often founded in our idealistic view of. Of reality. And it's probably not actual reality. So. So what I mean by that is we want to believe that Brian Schottenheimer even has the power to instill a Dan Campbell type situation. And that probably is laughable. And we just. I know it's Charlie Brown kicking with Lucy, holding and believing that this time she's not going to move the football, but I really, you know, going. There's a million examples of this, but you just said it. Dan Campbell's out there and he's saying to his Detroit Lions, if we're out here today, then it's worth winning. If there's another team on the field, then it's worth beating them. And I don't even need stakes. They just told to show up for a football game. And by virtue of a football game about to happen, where we are maybe just fighting for each other, or maybe we're fighting for Michigan versus Illinois or. I don't even know. We might have to come up with something. We might have to manufacture a fake newspaper article to get our guys all fired up before game time, but doggone it, there's a football game. There are television cameras, there are fans in the seats. We want to make them upset that their home team just got beat by a team that has nothing to play for. And does that mean Detroit is going to win a bunch of Super Bowls? Probably not. I mean, let's look at the odds. Probably not.

[George Dunham]

Their. Their best chance may be behind them. That was there.

[Bob Sturm]

They might have blown their best opportunity, Georgie.

[George Dunham]

But, but, but.

[Bob Sturm]

Dog gone. That feels good. And wouldn't you love to have a coach like that? But honestly, that coach could be Brian Schottheimer. The point is, you just never have the ability to make those decisions if you are Brian Schottenheimer. And I think we saw it again on Sunday. And I just, you know, I put this in the story I wrote, I think, on Monday, where I just. I just want Brian Schottenheimer to pick a lane because what he's doing right now is so Jason Garrett, which, Which I know that's an insult, and I regard Schottenheimer above Garrett right now, but maybe it's just because I haven't seen enough of Schottenheimer. Maybe five years from now, I'll say they're the exact same guy. And the only type of guy that the Jones family likes to hire is this kind of submissive, wanting to please us type head coach. And, you know, in Detroit, he obviously has to please his boss, but his boss has very quickly said, we're getting out of your way because we trust you to make the right decision. Whatever decision you make, we got your back. The players are not going to go around us. The agents are not going to go around you. Your decision is final, and we are empowering you to act with our blessing, and we want you to know that. And whereas Shotheimer, this whole thing with Dak is making me crazy. And by the way, part, Dak said something that also made me crazy, which we'll get to. But the thing with, okay, we're going to play Dak, but we're not really going to play Dak, and then we're going to tell you all week, the game matters to us, but then it's not going to matter to us. And there's just so many things like they put them out there and they never really allowed him to throw a pass because he might get hit and then he might get hurt. Well, then why play him? Well, because it's a game and it's important for us to have a not losing record. Okay, well then play him. Well, what if he gets hurt? Yeah, but there's no game for nine months. Yeah, but what if. Okay, so, I mean, you're. You're in between, you're stuck in the middle. You're like, I want to play them, but the Jones family doesn't want him to get hurt. And how can I thread this needle and kind of go half in? I mean, honestly, if you're going to do what you did, then play Joe Milton for a full game and put Dakot clothes and let's not have this stupid little dance.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, I'm with you. I did hear something in talking to somebody that we both trust at Cowboys headquarters this week, and I asked him some of those questions. Number one, was that a. Was that a call from on high to get Dak out of the game, or was it a call during the week? Okay, you can start Dak, get him a few yards to make sure he finishes ahead of Matthew Stafford, which he did not.

[Bob Sturm]

Which he did.

[George Dunham]

But. But getting him out at halftime or, you know, did Stephen get on the walkie talkie at halftime and say, okay, that's about enough. And number four, I was told that did not happen. And I was told that that was a coaching decision. And while it does make me feel better, it also makes me feel a little angry with for the first time this year at Schottenheimer. What are you doing?

[Bob Sturm]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

Because you have this locker room, I think, believing in you. But you, you, you've sent him different messages. Unless he told him something during the week that was different than what he said publicly of, hey, we're going to start, you guys. Let's get off to a good start. Let's pound these jokers. Let's get up 28, nothing at halftime. And then cruise. And obviously they didn't. So then he went to him and said, hey, we're going to fight another day and we're going to fight next year. That, that just. Yeah, I don't know. It makes me feel better in some ways, but bad in others.

[Bob Sturm]

So it's. It's 10, nine cowboys when the Giants score that most ridiculous touchdown of the season. I. I don't know if you've gone through every touchdown this season and decided that the Daniel Bellinger dump off on third and 16, where he just runs diagonally to the end zone, was the silliest touchdown scored against the Cowboys.

[George Dunham]

There are a lot of candidates, Bob. How about the Duron Bland face plant against Arizona and the boy Diggs?

[Bob Sturm]

Maybe I should save this. We have an off season to fill here, don't we?

[George Dunham]

That's a really good one. I think we got about six or seven candidates for that.

[Bob Sturm]

Okay.

[George Dunham]

But it was terrible. It was terrible.

[Bob Sturm]

If you're, if you're 16, what was it?

[George Dunham]

Third and fourth and 16.

[Bob Sturm]

There's like 30 seconds left. They're at, I don't know, the 29 yard line and all the Giants are trying to do is just make the field go a little closer. Yeah. It's 10, nine cowboys. By the way, if you have a goofy touchdown submission for our, for our contest, hit us up online. And, and, and don't let us forget any of the fun of these 17 games this season. So. So nominate your favorite ridiculous cowboy mom. 2025. But yeah, the Daniel Ballinger. So James Houston has Jackson dart dead to rights. And dart does a nice job of kind of jediing to the right and moving, moving and then kind of backhanding a pass on this tight end screen that really has no chance and the Giants know it. They're just doing something safe. Like I said, they don't want to lose their field goal. So the only job on 3rd and 16 is don't take a sack, don't do anything dumb. Let's get the lead. We're going to make this field goal. We're going to be 12, 10 at the half, and we're going to be happy. And of course, the Cowboys, like they did for most of the game, did not tackle at all. Didn't. And by the way, tackling, honestly, is just about. How interested are you? And. And you know, we saw that very early. There was like a third and 12 with. To Darius Slayton just ran a shallow cross for, you know, two yards down the field on third and 12. Like, the Giants are giving up. But Corey Ballantyne has the zone flat where he just has to get him to the ground or at least hold him up so your friends can come and help you. You know, one or the other. Like, either tackle him yourself. This isn't that hard. You're an NFL player. Or at least keep him from getting an easy first down by just letting him run right by you. And of course, Valentine did that. So. So that's earlier in the game. These third and 10 pluses, where the Giants aren't even trying to throw it past the sticks and you just give them a new set of downs is so upsetting. And.

[George Dunham]

And honestly, it was so 20, 25, too.

[Bob Sturm]

I mean, yeah, there's no.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

And there's no defensive coordinator on the planet that you can hire that can fix that. Like, you have to. We're talking about. You give a blank. You know, that's. That's the. That's. There's. There's every. Every coordinator in the league is going to say, bro, you got the flat. Get a wide receiver to the ground, push him out of bounds, do whatever you gotta do. Dive to his ankles and just let him pull you. It's just there. There are many, many ways to skin this cat, and it did not work. So this third and 16 dart dodges Houston. So Houston doesn't feel great about that, but it happens. And then backhands the pass to Bellinger. Bellinger now has two linemen in front of him and three Cowboys defenders. And I think the guy who was freed to make the tackle was Donovan Wilson. But Donovan Wilson takes a ridiculous angle, and from there, Bellinger just is like. I mean, nobody's here. I should just run, probably. And here is Ready Steward. Here is Kalyn Carson, and he's just kind of beelining right through the Cowboys defense. I don't know where Kenneth Murray was. Shemar James was caught up in the wash. And, you know, it's just. It's just bad football. And the Giants, again, you have to talk about intent. The Giants had no intention with a 3rd and 16 tight end screen behind the line of scrimmage to do anything but get 5 yards and kick a field goal and go to halftime. And you give them seven points. And so now you're behind. And that's when you make the decision down 16:10 at the half to pull the plug on deck when if Dan Campbell just saw that touchdown, he's more annoyed at anything. And I'm not here to make Dan Campbell Vince Lombardi. I'm just carrying out. Our comparison is that if I'm the head coach and I'm empowered to do what I want to do, and I've got a team that has said all week this game's important to us and we just had that moment on the defense, then I'm obviously asking my offense to go get the lead back. I'm not putting Joe Milton and out there for. And Phil Mafa for the second half, but it is what it is. They. They were. They were a bad team this year, so we probably shouldn't expect them to stop being a bad team, especially defensively as. As the final game was. Was just being played in front of an indifferent stadium and indifferent fans and different opponent. I mean, it's just. It's. It's something, man.

[George Dunham]

It was awful.

[Bob Sturm]

Jaden Blue is good.

[George Dunham]

I do want to talk about the departure of the defensive coordinator, Matt Eberfluss, and how you fix a defense in an off season. You can't completely fix this thing, but they can get better. But let's. Before we do that, I do want to say this. And this is one thing that Brian Schottenheimer is fighting right now, and it just comes with the territory of being the head coach of the Cowboys. If you, if you grade him fairly. That's a just a test of the tornado warning system in my area, by.

[Bob Sturm]

The way, as it's happening here, too.

[George Dunham]

Okay. And that's my dog that's howling. Or maybe we're under attack, Bob. I don't know. Maybe Venezuela is striking back. Well, I don't know who could know? But yeah, he's fighting this. For Brian Schottenheimer, the record is 7:9 and 1, unfortunately. And I fall into this a little bit, too, because the last 30 years have been very frustrating for Cowboys fans. He is viewed as, yeah, same thing. Just a jerry puppet. He's the latest. Get him in there. How much control does he have? Even if he, you know, tries to establish this new culture he keeps talking about, it's never going to work. And until they get to the promised land and win in that promised land, because around here, there is There used to be a standard, and with five super bowl championships and being there gobs of times, eight times, until that happens, he will deal with that. And is it fair? No, but that's just. That's. That's the Cowboy frustration, the Cowboy fan frustration. And right now, you know, Schottenheimer has to deal with a whole off season of that.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. Well, I guess it comes back to the simple question of is there a head coach alive who A, would be given this job and B, has the personality to establish a culture? I think. I think that's the ultimate thing that I've seen in my 28 seasons covering this team. And so I don't go. I don't go back to Jimmy. I don't go back to Landry. I'm certainly aware of them, and I watch their careers from afar. But in the Jerry Jones era, he has hired a certain type of head coach, and that head coach invariably is willing to be submissive to the Jones family and specifically Jerry. So. So you're not going to come in here and 5050 me or 5149 me like Jimmy Johnson. You're not going to in any way, shape or form threaten my authority and my stage and my. My throne here of Cowboys football. So I'm only hiring guys who fit that mold. The Bill Parcells one is kind of an outlier, but like we said in the past, he had a stadium vote to pass, and otherwise he has voted. He has hired submissive head coaches, which mean, and by the way, we're all submissive to bosses. So I'm not saying. I'm not saying they're. They're horrible humans. I am saying you want to hire people that you know are going to, in any walk of life, play team ball. They're going to be part of the team and good teammates and not a complete jerk. Well, in football, we could argue there are times where a head coach has to be the jerk, has to be the last word, has to make tough decisions, has to ruffle feathers and back people off the plate from time to time. Well, I know I'm not breaking news to most people listening to this, but Jerry will never, ever, ever hire anybody like that because he is well aware of his power structure. So if you only hire from the pool of people that he is convinced will never stage a mutiny or a coup, you know, a to the throne, that will ever, never threaten his power, I guess is what I'm saying.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, then those guys are not candidates, in my opinion, to completely take over the Culture and be able to establish a environment that is uniquely theirs. So I guess what I'm saying is you have two pools of coaches you will only hire from pool A and only the guys in pool B would have the nerve to. To act like Jimmy Johnson and tell Jerry to get out of here. This is, you know, you're not on the team for this meeting. You know, I. So I think that makes sense. I think everybody already knows that sort of thing, but that's what Schottenheimer's up against.

[George Dunham]

Well, let me get this. Let me ask you this. Am I naive to feel that if you have the right coach and the right players, you can still win here and win it all here?

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, no, of course you can win here for sure.

[George Dunham]

Because some people think that will never happen as long as Jerry is breathing. I think you and I wonder.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, I think it's fair to wonder. I think you and I could probably go through sports history and find incredibly unstable ownership, maybe even sabotage worthy ownership, and find a situation where a team was good enough to win it all. Maybe because they had a great coach, maybe because they had a outlier quarterback or a special group of players, but they were like too good to fail. And. And you. So you can win that way. But if you need. If you need a complete overhaul of the culture, I'm just. I just want to be honest here. In the life of Jerry Jones, you're only going to get submissive coaches. And submissive coaches are usually not the ones to completely change the environment, you know, culture wise. But hasn't. Hasn't. There are no more like the type of coach, I would say, Jerry, there will never be another tour during a team function. He would never get hired. Right.

[George Dunham]

That's a good one. I don't know about the tours, but I do think that you have enough time in a. In a locker room or meeting room, you know, setting where you can have turpentine, which I love on Hard Knocks. You can have frank discussions as a team.

[Bob Sturm]

Of course.

[George Dunham]

You can have game planning. You can have, hey, this is how we're going to play. And Jerry is not even. Jerry's out looking at a. Well somewhere, you know.

[Bob Sturm]

No, he is. He is. And you can do all that and you can build a great culture. I'm just telling you, at any moment, Jerry's going to roll in and trade your best player because he's mad at him.

[George Dunham]

Okay, yeah, fair point. Yeah. Or.

[Bob Sturm]

Or the year before, he's going to get in a big pissing match with his quarterback. Over a contract that isn't necessary because everybody knows what the quarterback is going to ultimately be paid. But you so love making it about you that you can't help yourself. And so we can talk about all of the sabotage things that Jerry can do. And it only takes one or two a year to keep your handprints on it. But, dude, the Netflix documentary, the cheerleader show, the Mica thing, the CD Lamb thing, the. The Zeke. I mean, these. These contract things, these interviews he does, you know, just on. Down the line, we could make. Obviously, books have been written about what. How he conducts himself. So to say, Schottheimer can. Can definitely change the culture. Yeah, he can. But he's always going to be subject to what's around the next corner. When Jerry kind of feels like he needs to be the main story again, he.

[George Dunham]

The.

[Bob Sturm]

The media, you know, again, I don't want to be hopeless, because I do believe the Cowboys are going to win again. But if you wanted to start with Bob George, what are your biggest issues with Jerry Jones? I would start with the fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with having his own press briefing in the Cowboys locker room after a game at the exact same time his head coach is doing his press conference in the press.

[George Dunham]

Room, and there's more press around him.

[Bob Sturm]

And all the beat writers have to decide. Yeah. Yes. All the beat writers have to decide, which one am I going to attend? Which ones will my boss want me to attend? And every time, the answer is going to be, go see what Jerry said about such and such. And Jerry could fix that today and say, I will have a press conference every Monday morning or I will have a press conference after the coach has his press conference on game night. But he purposely does this. He purposely does this because he loves the juice of cameras pointing at him.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

And that's how he's wired. He wants to be the main character in the Dallas Cowboys story. And it comes with cost. And the cost is his head coach is never given the full power of a head coach.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. No. Well said. And I think a lot of that is true. But wrapped around all of that.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

Is the ambiguous nature of. We're still not sure it's ambiguity. We're still not sure exactly how it works. Like I thought all year long. Well, Eber Fluss was hired before Schottenheimer had a chance to have any sort of say in it.

[Bob Sturm]

How screwed up is that?

[George Dunham]

And it's very screwed up. But again, I was told this week that that really wasn't the Way it happened that they thought that Schottenheimer was going to be the coach, and they asked him, what do you think about that? And he okayed it. Now, the other.

[Bob Sturm]

Can I go back?

[George Dunham]

The counter to that is, of course he's going to say yes because he wants the gig. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

What do I have to say to get this job as head coach of the Dallas Cowboys? Jason Garrett, Brian schadheimer, even Mike McCarthy. What do I have to say to close this deal right now of you making me your head coach? What do you guys think about Eberfluss as your dc? Love it, love it, love it. Can I have the keys now? You know, I mean, so. So again, try telling that to Bill Parcells, although they kind of did. But. But try to.

[George Dunham]

He had his battles he had to sign off on to and all that.

[Bob Sturm]

He had to teach Mike Zimmer the 3 4, because he was given Mike Zimmer as his AS on his coaching staff. So. So I guess what I'm saying is ultimately the type of guy that I want to be the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys, which will never happen. But. But hear me out. It's a podcast. Why not Jim Harbaugh? Let's say I want Jim Harbaugh as the next coach of the Dallas Cowboys. He's leaving Michigan. This is a great opportunity. Let's hire Jim Harbaugh. You ask Jim Harbaugh, hey, we're going to name your staff for you. Is that cool? And he just turns around, walks out the door. He would never even entertain the conversation. And we're also going to trade your best player with seven days before the game. First game. Is that cool? No, it's not cool. And then we're going to tell you the reason we're doing it is we're going to, you know, get some. A couple first rounders in the 26 and 27 so we can kind of rebuild. And then two months later, we're going to change our mind. We're going to trade those picks for Quinn and Williams, who's actually older than Micah Parsons. And when we're done with that, we're going to be talking about trading the other picks for Max Crosby, who's also older than Micah Parsons. Like, what are we doing? They. They don't have a plan. The plan changes, like the weather. And. And so with all this, as I try to steer it back away from just depressing us with Jones talk, I would say the Eber flu thing, to me, George, is, is with mixed emotions and. And I Just on one hand, he never had a chance. And on the other hand this defense took a bad defense and became way worse. And now what we're hearing, and I don't know what to believe. So maybe I need to get on the phone and work the sources too. But I'm hearing, based on a lot of cowboy player reaction, that they're all pretty thrilled he's gone. Partly because if you believe what is being said by some, that he was married to some players and would not take them out of the lineup come hell or high water. And honestly, when you look at like the Kenneth Murray story, you're like, why are they being so stubborn? And come to find out, people are putting that on Eber Flutes.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, well, it has.

[Bob Sturm]

I don't know if, I don't know.

[George Dunham]

If it's true, but yeah, that makes.

[Bob Sturm]

That makes some sense to me. That you trade for a linebacker to replace Kenneth Murray and then you forget to play him in an entire game. That does seem to, to really look bad for, for Eber Floose.

[George Dunham]

Let's go there. Next. How do you fix a defense in an off season with football friends? Get ready for the rush with Max Crosby.

[Bob Sturm]

It's time.

[George Dunham]

Don't miss the behind the scenes moments everyone's talking about, regardless of what they say. I'll take the. Fine.

[Bob Sturm]

I don't care.

[George Dunham]

All Pro defensive end Max Crosby takes you beyond the field with exceptional exclusive insights. I could say this because I've played them. This is the Rush. You guys already know what time it is.

[Bob Sturm]

It was fire.

[George Dunham]

And we'll be right back on the pod.

[Bob Sturm]

We'll be talking about it next week.

[George Dunham]

The rush with Max Crosby.

[Bob Sturm]

Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[George Dunham]

Okay. This was the worst Cowboys defense in the history of the franchise. The only other time they gave up 30 points a game was their expansion year. So taking a team that had nobody and then putting them together and playing an NFL season, you can excuse them giving up 30 points a game. That just happens. But this year's Cowboys team did that. They gave up over 500 points. Third down defense was atrocious. Coverage was atrocious on the back end. Lack of pass rush. You only gave your offense 12 turnovers the whole year. Just awful. Matt Eberfluss, the defensive coordinator, pays the price for it. As you said, it's. There's more than just Eber floors being the problem. But I do think that. I don't know if it was the Giants game. I don't know if it was the Carolina game. Somewhere in their Belief in him and the system stopped amongst the players. And heck, it may have been in training camp when they were getting gouged in week one of a scrimmage with the Rams. You know, the players may have looked at each other back then and thought, man, what are we doing? I don't understand what we're trying to do here with all this, but I do think the. The things you can hold against Eber Floofs the most is what you said playing Kenneth Murray more snaps than any other linebacker.

[Bob Sturm]

Any other player.

[George Dunham]

Any other player. I think Donovan Wilson had the most snaps.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, did he?

[George Dunham]

I'm sorry, but that's. But that's another one, too. My gosh, he didn't tackle anybody this year either. I don't know if he didn't have.

[Bob Sturm]

Great options there, but they're both UFAs, and I'm. I'm done with both.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, absolutely. There was that. I also heard there were so many players played on the edge. Like, I tell you what, let's try to replace Michael Parsons with eight guys instead of four. Jadavian Clowney has his best game. He finally gets 45 snaps, the most he's had all year long. Again, it was the Giants. I'm not saying he would have done that all year long, but I do know that that was a complaint in the locker room. Even the down year for Dante Fowler, there are some with people with the Cowboys who think Fowler's problem this year was he wasn't in there enough. I don't know if that's true or not, but what say you to me? Those are the two biggest fouls by Eberfluz, along with. As we get back into culture and communication, whatever that communication was, these guys didn't buy it. Now you need better guys moving forward. There's no doubt. I. I'd only hang on to about six or seven of these guys on defense.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

And move on. But what say you about the departure of flu?

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. Well, it had to happen. I, it. I, I do want to acknowledge for maybe the final time that it feels gross to me that it was already broken when he got here. And now the narrative as we walk away from this season will be that at least we got rid of the guy who's responsible for all this, and we didn't. The defense is really, really bad. And it was really, really bad when Matt Eberfluss was in Chicago. Okay. And he was employed by another NFL team, by the way. Poorly, but employed. And they were bad. The 24 defense was bad at nearly Everything. And then they took away both their edges. Maybe the second best defensive player in the sport was traded away and the DeMarcus Lawrence revival. And your best corner on your roster was Trayvon Diggs. Now, we can debate whether that was just a name on a page rather than a reality anymore, but you lost some pretty significant pieces off a. Off what Dan Quinn was working with, let's say the 23 defense at least. And from there, you get worse in nearly everything. And ironically, the only real uptick was your rushing defense, because you acquired or now pay three different defensive tackles over $20 million a year. So we, in an effort to get better at stopping the run, which they technically did, they're 16. No, they're 12 yards better per game against the run. And they shot up from 29th worst to 23rd or 29th best to 23rd in the league at stopping the run. But everything else, they're 30th or worse, 32nd in points, 30th in yards, 32nd in passing yards, 30th and takeaways, 32nd on third down, which actually, Mike Zimmer had them in the top 10 in 20, 24. 29th and red zone, 29th. And explosives allowed 25th in sacks. They were second in sacks. Last year, they fell to 25th. So they're bad at everything. And you can go into EPA per play. You can. You can look at dvoa, you can look at any metric you want. The Cowboys defense is brutal. And so when we say, who do they go get now? What were they doing wrong? How can they fix this? Well, I don't want to simplify it, but there's a number of names that are intriguing to me, and. And all of them do defense in a somewhat, you know, different fashion, because there's a number of ways to play defense in modern football, but at the end of the day, George, they just don't have the dogs. They just. They just don't have the guys. And so when people throw out, hey, let's go get Brian Flores. Two questions. One, why would Brian Flores want anything to do with this if he's not.

[George Dunham]

A head coach somewhere? Yeah. Why would he leave the Vikings for this job?

[Bob Sturm]

And two, do you think Ryan Flores could take these guys and run his defense? There's no way. So I think what you have to do is. And this is why, you know, the Quinn and Williams trade, the Logan Wilson trade, even the Max Crosby talk, you got to slow your role on everything and say, okay, here are the guys we like, and Quinn is absolutely the centerpiece of that. So I'm not saying I'm mad about Quinn and Williams being here. I'm just saying it's confusing to say you want to basically reboot your roster and then you go get guys who are older who also make tons of money. But Quinn's not at, you know, 40 something million. He's. Until he gets his extension, which will probably get him over 30. And you know, you just start, you start looking at this and you just say, I need to identify what I have and then hire appropriately and then just start digging. Just start finding guys because we're so far away, you could argue they need five or six new starters. And that is if you say, okay, I'm going to start Osa Quinn and Kenny Clark as my 3, 4 front. And then my two edges can be Ezraku. And I need to resign Jadavian Clowney, let's say. Now, by the way, Clowney played for nothing this year. And, and I would imagine he just put value back on his name with even his last two weeks. I know he's old, but that's probably at least a $10 million a year player.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

And, and I don't know if you get him for one, you know, Dante Fowler, I think was 1 for 10. So I'm just telling you to prepare the Jadavian Clowney. If you want to keep them. It's probably, I would say 2 for 25 is probably somewhere in the range. Yeah, I don't know if that sounds crazy to you, George.

[George Dunham]

No, it doesn't sound crazy, but it just, it hurts because you're paying three defensive tackles 60 million.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, at least. And then. Okay, so now we move to the second level. I like as a Raku. I like James Houston, those two are under contract. I need to get Clowny done. I don't think I want Fowler or Sam Williams back at their prices. So I might need to go draft an edge, which probably is a good idea anyway. And then linebackers, if I'm running a 3 4, I need two middles. I have Demarvi and overshone and I have Logan Wilson and I have Marisol and I have Shemar James. And I would say that's probably my group. I need to figure it out if I can go get Sonny Stiles from Ohio State or C.J. allen from Georgia. I definitely have to think about it because a, a Bobby Wagner, Fred Warner type linebacker might be exactly what this roster has been missing for a while.

[George Dunham]

So you think they will go three, four, by the way, is that your.

[Bob Sturm]

I would recommend it. Yeah, I would recommend it because you.

[George Dunham]

Have three tackles and.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, well, I mean otherwise am I going to try to make Osa a defensive end? Like right. I can't have a 20 some million dollar backup defensive tackle is basically. Now is this a smart reason to pick my scheme? I don't know. I. Yeah, but I do know they.

[George Dunham]

I don't think it's.

[Bob Sturm]

I do know they ran Some, some 50 fronts down the stretch, including on Sunday. So it feels like they're already hedging in that direction. But again, was Eber FL messing around? Was he being told from on high let's run some 50, you know, 50 is a five man front just so we don't lose people. 40 is a four man front. So the, the 50 is essentially a 34 with your two outside linebackers on the edge standing up, Jadavian Clowney, Donovan as a Rocku. And then your three tackles in the middle would be Quinn and Williams, OSA and Kenny Clark or I guess Solomon Thomas or Perry and Winfrey or Jay Twya. You know, that's kind of that middle. So I think that's what I would do, George. But now we need to go look for DCs who are real schooled in the 3 4, which might bring us back to Jim Leonard, by the way, which I don't think we've even mentioned here. But he would be on my short list of DC possibilities for the Cowboys. He's passing game defensive coordinator for the Broncos right now and a brilliant defensive mind, partly because I'm a homer for him as a Wisconsin Badger. But more importantly, him and Shoddy worked together with the New York jets. So he went to the Rex Ryan school. They of course were a 3, 4 defense. And you know that that's a name that makes sense to me if you didn't want to circle back to Aidan Dirday who is now running Seattle's defense and maybe bring him home because he was with Dallas for what, five years? You think the, the British defensive line coach the Cowboys had.

[George Dunham]

Very interesting. Um, do you think they for the second straight year. And it sounds crazy to go within the organization with as bad as his defense is, but I just wonder with his relationship with Quinn and Williams. Is Aaron White Cotton the possibility.

[Bob Sturm]

Interesting. I don't know that he is because maybe I just am not up to full speed on how well he knows defense. I don't either defensive line. But the other name to keep an eye on I imagine is Jeff Albrecht, who, who you definitely know from, you know Being the interim coach of the jets last season when Saleh got fired. But he was the DC for the jets under Salah the entire time.

[George Dunham]

He was in on the Shador prank, too, wasn't he? Or son.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes, I believe his son was. Yes, he wasn't.

[George Dunham]

But he was a. Had to sort that whole thing out. Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

And I want to say Albrecht and Shoddy have crossed paths, but I can't swear as to where. Maybe Atlanta, but I. I feel like they have a relationship and maybe. Maybe there's something cooking there. So, All Brick, Dirty Jim Leonard, who else is on that list? I'm trying to think of who else we were talking about yesterday on our show.

[George Dunham]

Well, if you want to throw in, you know, by the time someone hears.

[Bob Sturm]

This, by the way.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, Jim Schwartz or Raheem Morris.

[Bob Sturm]

Raheem Morris would be great. Raheem Morris also does have some shoddy connections, too. Yeah, that would be great. But I.

[George Dunham]

They may be snapped up somewhere as.

[Bob Sturm]

I kind of think Raheem won't have a shortage of suitors.

[George Dunham]

You know, whoever it is, this is the profile I want. And these are defensive coordinators. I'm going to throw out some names that, you know, you have never heard of before. And if you have, I will. I will give you some user money.

[Bob Sturm]

Awesome. Going right.

[George Dunham]

I want the defensive coordinator that it pains him to give up a first down, that his defense can be almost pitching a shutout. Say it's the team's up 173 and he's screaming in the booth next door to you because they gave up a first down and someone blew a coverage. I want someone that comes in here and says, this is how we tackle. This is how we break down. This is how we. You call it silly, but when Dan Quinn got here, one of the first things I noticed, after every play, every defender, even after the whistle, ran to the ball. Sounds dumb. Okay, it sounds dumb. But they also led the league in turnovers two straight years. Three straight years.

[Bob Sturm]

Three straight years.

[George Dunham]

Three straight years. So there's something to that. Just the way we play defense, some names I'll throw at you. Dave Wanstead, I thought was a great defensive coordinator. He was like that. I witnessed firsthand how he would just implode if someone was in the wrong spot. And the Cowboys are still up two touchdowns. A guy who eventually coached at ucla, he used to be the defensive coordinator at North Texas. His name was Gary deloach. And he would short circuit on just a missed tackle. I mean, just. It almost would end his life in the press. Box. If. If someone missed a tackle. A guy who coaches in. In the high school ranks, he's now the head coach at Austin Westlake. My son worked Tony Salazar, who I think is the best defensive mind in Texas high school football, who just short circuits if they get a fit wrong, you know, and seems to know every play that is coming and signals to his defense, this is what it is and this is what we're in. That's what I want. Who that is, I don't know, but that's. That's mentality I want. And I don't think the Cowboys have had someone like. I thought Dan Quinn did a terrific job when he was here. I thought with what he had to work with. Yeah, I don't think Mike Zimmer hurt his career at all. I know their numbers weren't great last year, but as you mentioned, they did some things well and that defense got to be where it was, I don't know, presentable, you know, after a terrible start to the season. That's what. And I think Zimmer was another one of those that would just, you know, short circuit if. If you didn't play defense the right way. And as you mentioned, part of that is just attitude. We are going to run and hit and fight and to your Dan Campbell point, null your leg off if we have to or whatever. That's. That's the mentality I want here in Dallas.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. And I just don't think there are shortcuts to that, which is why I do want to run the other direction. When people want to trade for veterans.

[George Dunham]

No, you can't afford it. Number one.

[Bob Sturm]

No, I think you can supplement a defense with veterans, but you can't build a defense with veterans. I think you need dogs. I think. I think the only way to get them is in the draft. And usually the only way to get them is in the top 100. And as we said, they traded their second rounder for Quinn and. And their third rounder for George Pickens. And so they've got two ones and then we're off into the fourth, and we'll have plenty of time to do draft stuff. But that's why I think I said on a previous episode, write me down, expecting them to take one of those firsts and try to trade back and get a second and a third and, you know, just to sort of get a normal draft load because they need help and they need it fast. And the other thing they got to start doing, you know, when you. When you say, what do you want from the Next defensive coordinator. It. I don't want to swing back into our last conversation about Jerry and how this organization works, but, man, they've got to have a philosophy that they're locking in on because you can't. You can't go into the draft, allow your coaches to influence who you're taking and then switch concepts immediately.

[George Dunham]

So.

[Bob Sturm]

So what I'm talking about is, for three years, Dan Quinn had a lot of power on who this team was drafting, especially, you know, when. When, okay, is this a guy you want? And so Dan Quinn filled this roster not by himself, but he filled this roster with a lot of man corners and played a lot of man coverage, and it made sense. And then when he left, they hired zone believers, especially Eberfluss. But obviously, Mike Zimmer is more of a bend but don't break. Defensive guy who wants to play zone and doesn't want guys on an island and wants to have everybody facing the quarterback and all that sort of thing. And we can get into the differences if anyone's interested, as the. As the spring goes on. But my point would be, as I look at it, we need to understand that when we draft these guys, it's for four or five years. So let's not draft guys that just fit this year. Let's draft guys that when the next guy comes in to coordinate the defense, because this guy's going to be so good that you know somebody. I'm going to hire Jeff Albrecht, let's say, and he's going to have such a good year in 2026 that someone's going to want to make them their head coach. Okay, well, now I need to hire somebody new who still believes in what we believe and still can use the pieces we have. What we had this year was Siobhan Revelle was drafted as a man corner, and then he debuts for the Cowboys, and they played like 90% zone in his first few games, and it's just like, wow, why are we drafting guys who aren't good at what we want to tactically do? And so this would also go into your 3, 4, 4, 3 discussion.

[George Dunham]

Although it's.

[Bob Sturm]

It's way more, you know, nuanced or. Well, I'm just going to say, with the. With nickel being the base, there's not as much difference between the 3, 4, 4 threes or once was. But you're going to get tweeners like Ezraku, who is he big enough to be a. A hand in the dirt. Four, three, end. Or do I need. Yeah, yeah.

[George Dunham]

So.

[Bob Sturm]

So I don't I don't want tweeners. I don't want zone corners playing man. I don't want man corners playing zone. Now, of course you want hybrid guys who can do anything, but I guess what I'm saying is I think one of the reasons the Cowboys right now have such little talent on their defense is because they don't have a global philosophy on what they're looking for and stick with it.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

What they have is they're chasing butterf of man. We need this right now. At this moment in time, we need this. And we take Mozzie Smith. Okay, well, what. What if we did that, you know, and. And there's just no. There's no real filter for. For distilling down what exactly we need so that no matter who we hire, he knows our expectation for this defense. The players know, you know, like when the Ravens or the Steelers or some of these organizations hire a new guy on either side of the ball, they know the expectation. It's Ravens football, it's Steelers football, it's 49ers football, it's packers football. The Cowboys have changed direction so many times with this defense, from Rob Ryan to Monte Kiffin to Rod Marinelli. I mean, dude, Rob Ryan and Rod Marinelli do not see the universe the same way, I assure you. And, you know, the same with Dan Quinn and Matt Eberfluss. It's completely different. And so you don't want to have to start over all the time. And that's where the Cowboys have kind of been running in circles.

[George Dunham]

Well, you need so many players. Maybe this is the right time to start over with a new alignment, a new strategy for coverage in the back end, whatever it is.

[Bob Sturm]

You need a spring full of going to get dogs, George.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, I like it.

[Bob Sturm]

We need four or five dogs on this defense, and then we're going to put them right in the lineup and there's going to be some growing pains, but we don't have to look at retreads and other teams trash anymore. We're going to get some guys right out of these big time programs and we're going to say, you're 21 years old. Welcome to Dallas. Buy a house. You're going to be here for years to come, and you're going to help us get this defense fixed.

[George Dunham]

I like it. I like that idea. All right, let's talk about a time long, long ago and far, far away, and who's going to win this year's super bowl next. Okay, Bob. It's been so long. It's been 30 years since the Cowboys went to an NFC Championship game or won a Super bowl. Happened in the same year. It was the 95, 96 season and they knocked off the Pittsburgh Steelers and Super Bowl 30. If you go back 20 years before that, that's the season you've been following very closely this year.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes, sir.

[George Dunham]

And Cowboy fans have enjoyed the look back 50 years later of the 1975 team. So it was about a week ago, 50 years ago, that this team played in the 75, 76 season NFC championship game. And that was the week after the Hail Mary.

[Bob Sturm]

That's right. So we're right in the meat of big fun. In fact, if you are interested, and I know you're, you're a busy job, but if you, if you have time, I propose that in roughly 10 days when Super Bowl 10's 50th anniversary hits, if you're willing to do a viewing and we can exchange notes and maybe make the entire episode About Super Bowl 10, I will commit to it right now.

[George Dunham]

I love it.

[Bob Sturm]

That sounds like a great way to get us through January.

[George Dunham]

I'll tease it with. I was in fifth grade and my fifth grade teacher was from Texas. And I spent the first three hours of the day, the next day with my head on the desk. And Mrs. Talley finally had to say, george, I know it's a sad day in the Lone Star State, but you have to pay attention in class. And for her, because I loved her as a teacher. Yeah, I straightened up, got my shirt all, you know, uncrinkled, got out my number two pencil and tried to participate. But it was tough because that was, that seemed like such a team of destiny. From the Hail Mary to the clobbering of the Rams in the. Hey, I bet the, I bet the Rams thought. I mean, we're going to, we're going to erase these Cowboys. There's no way they can come in here and beat us.

[Bob Sturm]

Jimmy the Greek thought so for sure. I think the Rams. So the Vikings were the one seed, right. Because Rams were too the wild card. And so the Rams weren't expecting this game to be a home game. And the Rams also had this weird thing where James Harris, QB1, was hurt. And so Jaws young second year quarterback Ron Jaworski was playing the playoff game and they killed the Cardinals. But I think it was mostly because Larry, don't call me Lawrence McCutcheon ran for like 200 yards in that divisional game.

[George Dunham]

Wow.

[Bob Sturm]

The day before the Hail Mary game.

[George Dunham]

Okay, okay.

[Bob Sturm]

So. So now in the build up The Rams are a six and a half point favorite. And Jimmy the Greek is heavy on the Rams, and everybody's excited about the Rams. And we're expecting a Rams, Steelers, Super Bowl.

[George Dunham]

By the way, I couldn't stand Jimmy the Greek. He was such a cowboy hater every week when. I just don't think they have enough. Yeah, whatever.

[Bob Sturm]

Jimmy gets the Cowboys every week in 1975. It does feel like. So there's a quarterback controversy. And entering this NFC Championship game, Chuck Knox is pretty married to the idea that, look, James Harris, we won 12 games with him and he gets the job back and Jaworski just won the playoff game. And so that's kind of when you watch this NFC title game, and there really isn't a very good copy of it except the NFL Films Game of the Week recap, which is 30 minutes and it's good. And I put it on that Twitter account, but 75 cowboys. Rewind if you want to see it. But the. The game itself, like the first quarter exists and the pregame show with Brent, Irv, and Phyllis, and then like the end of the fourth quarter exists. So all the meat of the game is kind of lost to history, unless somebody's got it in their basement. I didn't have a VCR back then, George. I was three.

[George Dunham]

No, I don't know. My family didn't have a VCR till, like, shoot, the late 70s, I think.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, the Hail Mary game is exists and it's Perfect. Super Bowl 10 exists, but this game in between is. Is mostly newspaper reports and highlights. But if you don't mind, Bob St. John, the Cowboys writer for the Dallas Morning News, I would like to give you a little of his lead from the recap of the Cowboys NFC Championship game. Dateline, Los Angeles. What had seemed an impossible dream not long ago became not just a reality, but a stark reality on a mild Sunday afternoon, the fourth day of the new year. No longer are the Dallas Cowboys a team of the past or of the future. They are now. There is no myth, fantasy, or luck. Dallas, a team which was very unlikely to make the playoffs, a team which was the most likely not to succeed in the playoffs, utterly demolished the Los Angeles Rams, most everybody's favorite to bolt and certainly not back into Super Bowl 10 against the defending world champion Pittsburgh Steelers. And in doing so, Dallas became the first wild card team to ever make it since the current NFL playoff system was set up in 1970.

[George Dunham]

Heck, yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

The maybes, ifs and perhaps is. The maybes, ifs and perhapses did not last Long the Cowboys crashed into a 21 nothing halftime lead and coasted in for a 377 victory before 84,483 live fans in the Coliseum who were as shocked as the national television audience. Oh, perhaps not so much that Dallas won, but with the impressiveness with which it won. So great. If you want to read the rest of it, it's all posted there. It was a huge day. A day that still is a huge day by NFL standards for Preston Pearson.

[George Dunham]

Boy, our old friend. And I don't know if it was the first or second or third touchdown he scored that day on passes from Captain America.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

But one of them is one of the best catches I've ever seen where he left his feet.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

Brought it in. It may have been the third quarter touchdown when he did that kind of put it out of reach. Man, he was that he invent the position of like scat back. Yeah, yeah. Pass catching. Running back. Because I don't remember it before then.

[Bob Sturm]

It. That would be an interesting thing to look up. I did look up something else though. Would you like to hear an entire list of. In NFL history, in the playoffs, running backs with three touchdown catches. Would you like to hear the list?

[George Dunham]

I'd love to hear that list. I bet it's pretty short.

[Bob Sturm]

Preston Pearson.

[George Dunham]

Oh, that's it.

[Bob Sturm]

That's to this day, that's it.

[George Dunham]

I had never heard that before. Well, that makes sense. I mean, because that just doesn't happen. Three touch also for a running back.

[Bob Sturm]

I have another list for you.

[George Dunham]

Okay.

[Bob Sturm]

On the 1975 Cowboys, would you like a list of all of the Cowboys who had played for another team besides the Cowboys?

[George Dunham]

It probably is just Preston Pearson.

[Bob Sturm]

Preston Pearson, right.

[George Dunham]

Was he a Steeler?

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, they picked. They picked him up off the waiver wire I think right around opening day, as I recall reading that article back in September.

[George Dunham]

Well, that was a big pickup.

[Bob Sturm]

They needed. They needed running back help. I think they looked at Mercury Morris first and. And settled on Preston Pearson. 14 players have three playoff catch touchdowns in a playoff game and only one's a running back. Two tight ends, Travis Kelsey and Rob Gronkowski and then a number of receivers, including one guy who did it twice. His name is Jerry Rice.

[George Dunham]

Wow, man, that's a list right there.

[Bob Sturm]

Jerry Rice did it in two Super Bowls, which is extra crazy.

[George Dunham]

Well, thanks for taking me back to a time that was much better, Bob, as a young Cowboys fan, just knowing, okay, these Pittsburgh Steelers are about to find out in Super Bowl 10 what the Vikings and Rams now know. Yeah, we'll get to that here either next week or the week after as we wrap up. We got our bracket, NFL bracket, which does not include the Cowboys. My preseason super bowl pick was the Buffalo Bills, so I guess I'll stick with them. I don't think that's going to happen. I'm going to be really boring, but I just don't see anybody beating the Broncos in Denver or the Seahawks in Seattle.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, I'm happy we're doing this exercise, but I also want to say I don't have the slightest clue because it's such a weird playoff. There is no Patrick Mahomes, there is no Lamar Jackson, there is no Joe Burrow. And in the nfc it's. It just feels incredibly wide open. And I think it feels this way because the 1 seeds are teams that I don't know that we saw as playoff teams. I don't remember thinking the Seahawks were making the playoffs, the Rams and Niners in that division, Panthers.

[George Dunham]

I didn't think they were going to make the playoffs. No.

[Bob Sturm]

And then the other one seed is Denver and I think I might have had them on the fringe. But. But Chargers and Chiefs were going to make that difficult. And so those 21 seeds and then the 22 seeds were probably also not playoff teams in many people's picks in of the season with the Bears and the Patriots.

[George Dunham]

Right.

[Bob Sturm]

And so what you have here are established teams like the Bills and Niners who look very formidable, but they're going to have to win three playoff road games in a row to get there. Meanwhile, these teams with the easier path are like Jacksonville and Chicago and you know, the stinko Eagles. I suppose we should never count them out, but. But they could go out on Sunday. But you know, the Niners, Eagles.

[George Dunham]

So.

[Bob Sturm]

So I wanted to hear your super bowl pick right now. Only because I might have to steal it because I don't have any idea myself. This, this. It feels wide open. Georgie.

[George Dunham]

I think the best. The team that has impressed me most this year throughout is the Seattle Seahawks. I think with their offensive line, I think with their defense. Sam Darnold still worries me a little bit, but man, how many games does that dude won in two years? He was terrible. And their playoff game for Minnesota last year. But I'll say these Seattle Seahawks are going to win this thing this year.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, I don't know what to do. It's all a mess. The NFC in particular. You have to believe in some quarterback that gives. Makes you nervous. Like if you're not going to believe in Sam Darnold. Then you got to believe in Caleb or you got to believe in Jalen Hurts or maybe that Matt Stafford and Devonte Adams is going to be healthy. I don't even know if Adams is ready to roll. And it's a mess. I. I think I'm going to. I'm going to go with the Rams. I don't know why.

[George Dunham]

I think that's a good pick. They got the best quarterback in the nfc.

[Bob Sturm]

They have the best quarterback and that's what I always fall back on. And in the afc. I also will not give up on my Josh Allen dream. Although I do. I do fear the Broncos and I do kind of expect the Patriots to be a problem. So I, I will go Bill's Rams. But I have zero confidence in picking a 5, 6 seed Super bowl meeting. That just that that seems insanity given how much I believe in both the advantages of the bye week and home field advantage. And the five and six seeds have neither. So what do you know?

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And if. And if the Bills do go and they win, it ought to make Cowboy fans really crazy. Have you seen some of their defensive performances this year? Buffalo, especially against the run, there's just like oh my gosh. But. But they've got an offense. It's a terrific. And they turn people over too. So.

[Bob Sturm]

They do. But I would. I would suggest to you that there are seven head coach openings right now in the NFL and Sean McDermott could make it eight if they get beat by Jacksonville. If they get beat by Jacksonville.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

I've heard people try to float that. Matt LaFleur could be on that blocks. I. I don't know if I buy that. It's. I don't given Jordan love and Micah Parsons being hurt. I think love is fine now. Of course. But they were the one seed when Micah blew out his knee. I just don't think you can fire a coach under those circumstances. But I guess we learned with John Harbaugh that at some point Maybe also with McDermott you've had long enough and we want to try something new. Is always a possibility. Although the packers usually don't knee jerk like that. So I don't know.

[George Dunham]

Well. And somebody who still has a coach inquired about John Harbaugh. So maybe it's one of these playoff teams. Who knows.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. Well. And if the Giants don't grab them first, I think the Giants could not believe that John Harbaugh was on the market. So we shall soon see.

[George Dunham]

Man, we covered a lot of ground right there.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

Unlike a Cowboy linebacker. This year we covered a lot of ground and this week's a sports joke. Yeah. Thanks to Peter Welton for putting up with this football conversation amongst football friends. But it was fun for Bob Stern.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, George. Yeah, I never circled back to what Dax said that annoyed me. So we're going to write that down for next week.

[George Dunham]

Okay. What did Dax say that annoyed Bob?

[Bob Sturm]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

Next week on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition football, James Foreign. Vliet, host of the number one podcast insight with Chris VanVleet. On the show I sit down with the biggest names in pro wrestling, sports, film and beyond. These are real long form conversations that go behind the scenes and beyond the headlines with people like John Cena, the.

[Bob Sturm]

Undertaker, Cody Rhodes and more.

[George Dunham]

We talk mindset, motivation and what it takes to succeed. This is Insight with Chris Family. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.