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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
Bob Sturm
Foreign.
- [00:34]
George Dunham
The Podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends It's George Dunham and Bob Sturm. As we look at a Cowboys team that is 2, 2 and 1 after five games. They don't have a losing record after five games.
- [00:50]
Bob Sturm
Bob that's right. And we were worried, we were worried how this season was going. But the we're seeing signs of life. The the packers game was was a weird sign of life, but it was way better than a loss. It felt it. We didn't know how to feel but now we do know how to feel is that they smashed a bad football team and there are bad football teams in this league and there are several on this schedule. And so if you can smash them, that might mean you're not as bad as they are, at least on that given Sunday. So these are all signs we are going to le to because we have no other choice this year.
- [01:30]
George Dunham
And isn't it I say funny that in this town and as you listen to us worldwide here on the Musers the podcast Cowboys Edition in Dallas Fort Worth, if the Cowboys win from week to week, it doesn't matter when it is in the season or what your expectations are for that season. You have to put qualifiers. Well, it's the jets and they're winless and they're not and they have Justin Fields and all that. The Cowboys had four replacement offensive linemen. They were missing their top receiver in CD Lamb, their fast evolving third receiver and return men, Kevante Turpin. They had plenty of reasons I picked the Cowboys going into this, but I thought it was going to be a close game and I fully expected, oh gosh, it's going to be another one of those Mondays where we have to talk about a Cowboy loss. And how did they lose to the Jets? Well, they got a lot of injuries but man, just appreciate, as you always say, you appreciate everyone in the NFL and especially in this case where you go on the road. And I would say this, I don't know how good the Cowboys are but I would put their offensive line in from a depth perspective against anybody's offensive.
- [02:51]
Bob Sturm
Line well, and that's, that's a big part of the sport, right, is the. I mean, you're going to play a lot of games, and in those games, your offensive linemen are going to take a beating and you're going to have to play with way more than five, unless you are the luckiest team ever. Did the Rams win the Super Bowl a couple years ago by starting the same offensive lineman the whole season? I think they did. But. But it's ra. And usually, you know, a good team will have to have maybe eight starters up front, and who knows, it could go higher than that for some teams. And usually that means you're. You're horrible. You're going to pick in the top five because you had to play 11 offensive linemen last season. So just that alone. Even if we only knew about the Dallas Cowboys, but all the seasons we've covered, we know that when you start getting into your reserves, things get real thin real fast and you start to look lousy. And so the fact that we legitimately saw a four offensive line starters down win from the Cowboys, that was away from home and with the worst defense in the NFL, I mean, I don't care who you beat. I really don't. And I'll tell you who else doesn't care. Nobody on that coaching staff cares. It's too hard to get wins in this league to qualify them. It's one of the least favorite things about what we do for a living is that, okay, you're only going to win 10 games in a year if you're lucky. And of those, we're only going to let you actually be happy with like four of them because the rest don't count, because they're six don't count because anybody could beat them. Well, guess what? Anybody could have beat them. You know, during the course of the season, every team in this league is going to claim some scalps. And for the Cowboys to navigate through that when they couldn't navigate through the Bears, that's big to me. Now the Panthers are next. And so you start going through this schedule and you say, okay, we play some great teams, we also play some stinkers, and if we can start putting those stinkers in the win column, that's how we show progress and growth and of course, make our first round pick worse. But, um, you know, that's, that's what you're looking for. So if nothing else, the Brian Schottenheimer train has left the station with a little bit of speed because they've proven something that many of his predecessors could not prove, which is I can win when things aren't going perfect. I can win when adversity hits. And I thought that was huge. I was so blown away because here's the other thing, George, and this is a coach thing, is when you're down a couple guys, or when let's say you have a backup quarterback and you're down a couple starters, you start playing with training wheels, you start playing careful and conservative. And I said the other day, you're playing for like a 1310 win and therefore you're almost punting when your possession starts. You're doing all these things. So think about it. When Marisol Liafou, boy, I butcher that name. I think every week here on the Mewers, the podcast Cowboys edition.
- [06:11]
George Dunham
Well, he's finally getting some playing time.
- [06:13]
Bob Sturm
Good. Because the other linebackers, we've been calling.
- [06:16]
George Dunham
For that here on the podcast for five weeks now.
- [06:19]
Bob Sturm
We have linebacker is a stinky position right now, but when he makes that play, there's two minutes to go in the half. The Cowboys are up 10 to 3. So first of all, the jets are going into tie it. And that play, even though it's the end of a negative play, he punches the ball loose and makes it a positive. And that's great. So, so we'll focus on that. But now from there, if I may slander the good name of like Jason Garrett and you get the ball at 103 with two minutes to go at your own nine yard line. I'm thinking the Jason Garrett years, you're kind of trying to run out the clock and get to the room with the lead but. Or you're trying to run clock and punt it back safely or so you're trying to not mess up your seven point lead.
- [07:09]
George Dunham
And this guy, how about two more possessions?
- [07:13]
Bob Sturm
This guy and this quarterback are like let's go hunting for dinner. And, and let's, let's go looking for some plays and, and Dak is in attack mode and he's throwing it deep to Flor Flournoy. Now the, the next touchdown was, was kind of wild because Javante just bro 66 yarder. But, but the point is, yeah, they go from 103 to 233 at the half and it's church. I mean the game's over honestly there and, and that is a sign of we're down six guys on this offense. We don't care. We're still attacking your tail because we don't think you can stick with us. And I love that because now the players get that. And they're like, yeah, let's go, let's go take these guys out as opposed to let's be super careful. Let's punt nine times and maybe we can hit a field goal at the end of the game to win 13 to 10, which I think most head coaches in this organization over the years since Jimmy are predisposed to be really careful and really conservative if they're down any pieces.
- [08:20]
George Dunham
Yeah. And that drive that started at the nine, there were a number of really good plays and. Well, let's start with Dak and we'll get to the offensive line. The Dak run. I haven't seen a Dak run like that in quite some time where it's significant. In the middle of the field he sees an opening and he looked pretty quick and.
- [08:42]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [08:42]
George Dunham
And he picks up a first down and then the real big one with 120 left. The. Yeah, here we go. Set. Gets him to jump and he knows he's got a free play. He puts it up for Flournoy and man, what a catch by Flournoy. And then. But what a throw by Dak. I mean, yeah, he can't put it out there any better. And then you have that attack mode and next thing you know, it's a Williams touchdown run.
- [09:12]
Bob Sturm
Boy.
- [09:12]
George Dunham
And you still have a minute, and you still have a minute left and you're thinking, well, surely the jets will get a first down. And then they throw an incompletion and now you start thinking, holy smokes, you're going to get the ball back. If you get one player. Maybe we're going to see the 70 yarder.
- [09:31]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [09:31]
George Dunham
And then as you mentioned, the Williams 66 yard run, a lot happens there in about a minute time. That basically ended the game.
- [09:39]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. You know what? If people still have the game, they should go back and watch that final two minutes of the half because you. You detailed a few things on that drive. I'd like to throw a few more in there before the Dax scramble is a slant to Flournoy, which, which is a trust throw and I know it's only second and long, but. But they moved the chains there to reset and then get Dak. The scramble which then led to the free play. And so I really like Ryan Flournoy and I think we're saying his name different just about every time now.
- [10:11]
George Dunham
Just about.
- [10:12]
Bob Sturm
But I do, I'm really thrilled for him because when they drafted him, and I don't know how well you remember it, but I want to say Southeast Missouri State or something like that, but he was one of those guys that you take late on day three because his testing does not make sense for that part of the draft. And sometimes you, sometimes as an organization, you're like, you know what? The type of guys we can get right now are over here. But this one guy is a little bit of a question. Health. Why is he at this school, all these things? We don't have a ton of information on him, but boy, did you see his test scores. This dude is an elite, elite athlete. If we can develop him, we might find something really special in round six. And so it's been a slow go for him because, I don't know, so many young players have to establish trust with the coaching staff that I know where I'm supposed to be. And I know, you know, here's the motion or here's the safety, I need to dig out on this run play. And so it takes a while. I think Lia Fowl is probably like that too. He's just not fully trusted by the coaching staff, which I guess circles back to all those depth offensive linemen who are performing at a very high level like Nate Thomas and, and Brock Hoffman. That's. That's such a testament to their hard work. So, so then speaking of Nate Thomas. So after the Flournoy long pass, now you got, I don't know, the ball like at the 16 or something like that. I'm not sure where it is. But they run Williams 12 yard run. Well, they run the same run play twice and they, they basically it's the exact same play left and then right and it's like fullback lead. And I know you love that and I know Hunter Lipke is probably a candidate for, for a, for a high honor on this podcast. We'll see. But, but it was like fullback lead. And on the one to the left, which goes 11 yards, they put span Ford in motion across to the left. And then I think it's Tolbert and Span Ford who down block. So back into Nate Thomas's guys over there on the edge. And then Nate Thomas pulls out the left tackle and him and Lipke are forming a convoy for Javante Williams. And it's just a power bully run.
- [12:39]
George Dunham
That defensive back wanted none of it. That's right, man. He can move to Nate Thomas.
- [12:45]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [12:45]
George Dunham
He's really athletic.
- [12:47]
Bob Sturm
He's. He's a really fun player. I, I really wonder if they got something there with Nate Thomas. And I don't know about you, but a couple of those guys we talked to in the organization were Raving about Nate Thomas in July when we were there, to me. And I just think he's carried it for several months now since he's gotten healthy after a. After a 2024 where he basically red shirted because I think he needed a surgery of some sort. You may. You may recall. Anyway, then the next play, it's a slightly different formation, and I think it's even different personnel. I want to say the first run is like 22 personnel. And then this one might be more 11 or 12 personnel, but they got the running back or the wide receivers in on a bunch that are kind of looking like attached tight ends, and they just run the play the other direction. And it's again, it's fullback lead with a pulling offensive lineman. I think it's TJ Bass this time, the right guard. And they go on a convoy to the other pylon. And so these two runs to me are Clayton Adams and Connor Riley and Brian Schottheimer. And they talked the talk the entire off season, George, about we're fixing this run game. We're introducing some new. Actually some old concepts that are new again, and we're going to make our team physical. And Clayton Adams said, we want to play with violence. And of course, you know, that got me all excited. Oh, we're going to have an offensive line that's going to play with violence. Let's see it. Well, right there we saw it.
- [14:32]
George Dunham
Yeah, absolutely. And you got me watching All 22 several years ago, and I know enough to be dangerous, but I usually check my work and either refer to you or one of the guys we do talk to at the Star. And he said the four offensive linemen that played due to injury, their play was, quote, remarkable.
- [14:59]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [15:01]
George Dunham
He went on to say that because I was raving about, as you just were about Nate Thomas. I said, Man, 71 sure stood out to me.
- [15:11]
Bob Sturm
Yep.
- [15:12]
George Dunham
He said, still has a ways to go. But keep in mind it was a game plan that was designed for these guys and especially for him. Quick game passing and running the ball. And when you think about it, there wasn't a lot of dak. All right, let me. Let me five step it here and just hang in the pocket until something. I mean, it was very quick.
- [15:36]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [15:36]
George Dunham
And it helped the offensive linemen do their job. But, man, again, I always qualify it. Not an offensive line coach, not an offensive coordinator. I really. Sometimes I watch the All 22 and nothing really jumps out at me. I was just so impressed with the entire offensive line. But to me, Thomas really jumped off the page.
- [15:59]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And he, you know, there's. There's a little bit of Terrence Steele there in the sense that pass protection is always going to be, you know, what he's going to have to focus on because that's. That's not going to be a forte usually. He's just not, you know, he's not Tyron Smith. He's never going to be Tyron Smith. But what he can be is a guy who can move pretty well, and that can help you reset your feet when you're in pass pro. But also it's beautiful when you get out in space and you're looking for something to hit. And. And if I may wander back and, you know, I'm no coach either, but I do say this, there are some. There are some concepts that anybody can understand if they, you know, just kind of study football a little bit. And one of them is, you know, you hear it in the games. We heard it on the game on Sunday when, When Greg Olson was talking about it is. Is the concept of marrying the run in the pass. And. And what does that mean? Well, what it means in the. The most simple terms is just imagine you're a linebacker, and you have to perceive before the play, what do I think the Cowboys are going to do? What are they trying to do to me? And the marrying the run in the past simply means at. When. When Dak is under center, you have no idea if they're about to run or pass. Right? Because they make it look the same. And this. This is pretty old in football, but I think it was made Famous with Sean McVay. And Brian Schottenheimer may not have gone to school with Sean McVay, but. But when he talks, he sounds a lot like Sean McVay, to a point where I think he studied him very carefully. If I were to guess, and I always remember early Sean McVay was. They would play pretty much the same personnel, but they insisted on tight splits with the wide receivers. And what that means is, unlike the old days, where they're lined up way outside the numbers, they're in really tight because we want them to be part of our run game, and we want them to be part of our run game in, you know, vision. When you see them, you're like, is this guy blocking or is he about to go out for a pass pattern? But also it includes them in a way where your defense is bunched in. And now all of the pass routes can use the space between the tackle and the sideline as a way to expose and to isolate certain defenders. And it's harder to zone with tight splits is what I'm saying. And so you now you have to account for each guy because now they can use the width of the field to run away from you and run away from your zones and from your group. And so marrying the run in the pass sets up play action beautifully and it's great on first and second down. And so to circle it back to the specific game plan, I can definitely see that because if you go back and look at the best passing opportunities from Dak, they were off run looks where it's play action. And that's the beauty of this offense. The opposite, of course, going back to like Jason Garrett and Tony Romo is that they, they had so much trouble running the ball and with the offensive line in like 2011 through 2013 that there were many games, George, where they would just run their two minute offense the entire game. And what the two minute offense is is 11 personnel and it's pass and it's shotgun and, and everybody in the stadium knows what you're about to do and you can run from that, but it's going to be like a draw or, or some, some deception run. It's fire forward, lean on your guys, play physical football, take the fight to them. So it's just the opposite. That's the old way we used to play football is let's play spread them out shotgun, I'm going to pass and we're going to play seven on seven football. Basically this is, you know, kind of the evolution and I love the Cowboys leaning into it. We're using motion, we're using formation, we're using personnel groups and we're trying to make our plays all look the same until third down and long. But on first and second down and even third and short, we want you to think we're running maybe, we're passing maybe, and you better be ready for all of it and whatever you decide to defend. Now, Dax can audible to the other thing. And so this is where having a veteran Jedi quarterback is beautiful as well. So I hope that, I hope that makes some sense to the average listener because, you know, football, to me, there's so much chess in it and it's also, as you know, amazingly fascinating the deeper you dig into the rabbit hole of wow, I didn't even know this was going on. And you know, now you know to look for it and it's really fun.
- [21:16]
George Dunham
Well, and Dak seems to absolutely love it. And I think that's why when Brian Schottenheimer held his opening press conference. Dak was there. I think that's why he's been excited this entire off season. Yes, he looks differently, but he's got a new car to drive. And he leads the NFL in completions. He leads the NFL with 14 big play passes of 25 plus. So you may think, oh, wow, they're really concentrating on the running game. Well, it opens up the play action pass. And this is a dude who is operating at 90% right now in completion percentage on play action passing. And I'm telling you, there are and you know, offensive coordinators that would kill to have that type of efficiency.
- [22:10]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, it's. I mean, I think it starts with what's between the ears. And I'd like to think at that opening press conference, Shadi and Dak went in, got a burger or something, and the first thing that was said to Dak is, let's figure out the offense that you want to run. That suits you best. And I bet you we have some common ideas here, and I bet we both want the same outcomes. So let's talk about how best to do what we want to do. And I mean, the indicators are there. When you watch this team play, you say to yourself, I bet you Dak loves this offense, partly because I bet you this is what he's learned in his career, he's good at and what works. And isn't that coaching? Coaching isn't, hey, I've got some ideas you've never heard of before. I'm going to blow your mind. No, coaching is. This team has some problems. Let me offer some solutions from my observation and my experience, but also let me check with my most trusted players on what do they think will work. And I mean, that's, it's not that complicated, if you look at it that way, is I've got some really smart football people in here and Dak has just, you know, he's just started his 127th game, which is significant to me because that's the exact number of starts Tony Romo had in his career. So that's a lot of football, George. And, and when you play that much football, think about the, The Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hour rule or just whatever it takes to become a genius. I mean, Dak has put his 10,000 hours in and he knows the answers to the tests. He is, he's got his master's degree. And so coach and quarterback, we say this every week on this, on this show, and we should keep saying it because we're seeing the signs of a coach and a quarterback who are on the same page, who are, you know, pushing towards the same goal and who are having some early success. That, that's very exciting to us. And, and yeah, the running game's huge. But I mean, when you look at like, what was the game that's let us down and disappointed us so far, we would say the Chicago game, but then one of us would hopefully say, yeah, but in that Chicago game, they lost CD Lamb right away and that was probably a big part of their game plan. Now, should you always have a emergency game plan if we lose our best player in the first quarter? Probably. And maybe that's something they can do better next time. But I think that actually explains quite a bit about what happened in Chicago. Except the other part where the defense was giving up one play.
- [24:49]
George Dunham
Drives, that's not good defense was ridiculous. And turnovers.
- [24:54]
Bob Sturm
Javante's fumble killed him too.
- [24:56]
George Dunham
Yeah. And that, that was, that's what killed that game. All right, let's talk about the defense a little bit later in the show when we get ready for the Carolina Panthers this Sunday.
- [25:08]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [25:08]
George Dunham
But up next, the very first the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition we had. Bob brought up whatever happened to the cowboy band? And it sounded familiar to me. The guys you worked with in the afternoon looked at you like you had two heads.
- [25:26]
Bob Sturm
Unbelievable.
- [25:27]
George Dunham
There was a Dallas Cowboys band. It was awesome. I remember it. And the man who started it and was there when it was put to an end will explain the Dallas Cowboys band when we come back.
- [25:41]
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- [28:04]
George Dunham
Musers the podcast the Cowboys Edition Football Friends It's George and Bob. We are your football friends and we talk Cowboys football each week. So the Cowboys get set now for the Carolina Panthers. And before we talk about this week's matchup, the very first show we did together, Bob, you brought up the Cowboys band and whatever happened to it. And I vaguely remember it. I remember. Yeah, that's right. There used to be a band that was in the stands in the end zone and they had a sign said Dallas Cowboys Band. And they would play during timeouts, they would play during kickoff, and, you know, just they were part of the game presentation and then the trumpets were later left over and they were part of the presentation. But I couldn't put the timeline on it. Well, the guy who started it, the guy who directed it, is a huge part of Dallas history and is a very philanthropic individual who has a lot to do with the arts in the city of Dallas. Very important person. It's Bill Lively, and I talked to him this week, Bob. He's going to give us a brief history here of the Dallas Cowboys band.
- [29:22]
Bill Lively
Well, in 1970, the NFL was very different. Halftime shows for NFL games were oftentimes high school bands. And I was the band director at Bryan Adams High School in Dallas. And we played five halftime shows in two years with the Cowboys in the Cotton bowl in New Orleans and in the Astrodome. And then I went to SMU to direct the Mustang band. And Texram then called me in 1975 and said, We've had the Fort Worth Lions Club Band's been our band since the beginning of the franchise. We'd like to create a studio band to play contemporary music for the cheerleaders and for the fans. Would you create one? And had lunch with Tex, and we agreed to do that. So I recruited students from uta, smu, TCU, and North Texas, finally ending up recruiting all of my band members from the 1 o' clock lab band at UNT.
- [30:14]
Underdog Sponsor
Now we're talking.
- [30:14]
Bob Sturm
You bet.
- [30:16]
Bill Lively
Absolutely extraordinary musicians. And they're arranger. And we performed from 1975 to 1988 in the. In Texas Stadium, including going to two Super Bowls, for goodness sake. One in New Orleans and one in Miami. And then we went with the team to what was called the America bowl in London in Wembley Stadium in 1986. And we did all of that for 14 seasons until Jerry bought the team. And then he wanted to do something very different and we did. That is the quick history.
- [30:48]
George Dunham
So, yeah. Then Jerry put it into it in 1989. And I'm glad you brought this up because I had kind of blocked it from my mind. But I remember being at cowboy home games.
- [31:01]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [31:02]
George Dunham
And looking down and hearing the cowboy band. And they were great. It was. Yeah. It's true. I'm a fossil. I'm a dinosaur. But I liked it. I thought it was great.
- [31:12]
Bob Sturm
I think the league probably had a few versions of this in various places as well. And 70s and 80s football, there was not as much separation between college football and pro football in terms of game presentation. It was probably seen as football. And he's on to something about the halftime shows in the NFL back then. And the halftime length. Like, I was just watching a game from 1975 because I know how to party. And it was Monday Night Football. It was Cowboys and Lions, and the halftime show was the Apache Bells. George from Tyler.
- [31:59]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [32:00]
Bob Sturm
So apparently the Apache Belles was a dance group that might have been a little Rockettes or a little bit. What's our Texas version of the.
- [32:13]
George Dunham
The Rangorettes?
- [32:15]
Bob Sturm
No, the girls.
- [32:15]
George Dunham
Kilgore.
- [32:16]
Bob Sturm
The Kilgore. Yeah. Yeah. Are they the Rangerettes.
- [32:18]
George Dunham
The Rangerettes, I believe.
- [32:19]
Bob Sturm
Okay. Kilgore was what I was remembering. But anyway, there's like a hundred girls, and somehow a hundred girls are shipped. Not shipped, transported.
- [32:32]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [32:32]
Bob Sturm
Bob come from Tyler to the Silver Dome for a halftime show at a Lions game that they broadcasted live on Monday Night Football. And Frank and Howard. And I'm trying to think who the third was in the booth. Alex Caris. Yeah, but. But they're in the booth and, dude, they're acting like they've never seen girls before. And it was amazing.
- [33:03]
George Dunham
They're just worse than Brent Musburger doing college football.
- [33:07]
Bob Sturm
I mean, it was basically that. It was like, you want to talk about first round picks? Here's many first round picks, and they're showing the girls and like, it's live on ABC tv. That was their halftime show. So I didn't mean to interject, but halftime shows were no longer like, now they're. You hardly have time to go to the bathroom now at an NFL game. It is go, go, go. And there's very little halftime entertainment. There might be one song from a band, max, but. But back then, you would have 20, 25 minutes to. To. To kind of hash out a long halftime and, you know, do whatever you needed to do.
- [33:43]
George Dunham
Well, Bill Lively directed that Cowboys band, and then his son, Bill Lively Jr. He and I worked together when I was doing PA at Texas Stadium. The first couple of years when Bill was. I think he took over for his dad, running the operations. But you also brought up the trumpets like.
- [34:03]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [34:04]
George Dunham
The Cowboys used to come out in units and there would be trumpets on the field. And here's Bill talking about that.
- [34:12]
Bill Lively
Yes. Jerry asked me, instead of conducting a band and having a band, to create an entertainment concept for the team, and I did that for him. And one of the early part to that concept were trumpeters that came out on the field to herald the entry of the players at different times before the game started. You're exactly right.
- [34:28]
George Dunham
Okay, so do you remember. Well, those trumpeters being on the field, and here would come the Cowboys specialist or the receivers or whoever.
- [34:38]
Bob Sturm
I feel like that was before me. I wonder what years that was. I guess what I'm. What I remember because I would never see the introductions on. On TV in Wisconsin or Virginia or wherever was. But what I remember is, like after a kickoff or after a first down, there was like a punctuator that sounded like trumpets. Yeah, that. That would kind of go.
- [35:06]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [35:06]
Bob Sturm
Honestly, in tandem with Michael Irvin getting up from the slant and then doing his entire routine of a first down. I feel like there was music that was not recorded. There was live musicians.
- [35:20]
George Dunham
You know, it may have been by that point. It may have been tracked by then.
- [35:24]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [35:25]
George Dunham
They would hit it upstairs, I think.
- [35:27]
Bob Sturm
I think that's it almost sounded like medieval trumpet trumpeters. I don't know what you would call those guys. Yeah.
- [35:32]
George Dunham
That kind of thing. Or like the gladiators coming in. Here they come.
- [35:37]
Bob Sturm
100.
- [35:39]
George Dunham
Okay. So this is what I remember. Every time the Cowboys would score a touchdown, they would play the When I May Not Go to Heaven. That's what the band would play. Okay. And here's, here's Bill talking about that tradition.
- [35:53]
Bill Lively
And we sang that song forever. We did. There's one funny thing I should have told you too. Text agreed to let us make a recording in 1988, and we did that. He said there's only one stipulate stipulation he, he demanded. That is we had to play Hail to the Redskins on that recording so he could send it to the owners of the Washington Redskins at that time on the recording is Hail to the Redskins as they would have performed as a marsh. Then we transition in the way we performed it in a jazz style, and it was a lot of fun to do that.
- [36:26]
George Dunham
Okay, so there's a little curveball that I should have followed up on because there is a history with what the Washington team used to be called. The Redskins. Hail to the Redskins.
- [36:35]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [36:36]
George Dunham
And when the Cowboys were coming into the league, somehow they're owner Clint Merkerson bought the, the rights to Hail to the Redskins and it helped them get approved to get in the league.
- [36:49]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Yeah. So, so this is one of the really weird chapters of the Cowboys Redskins Commanders rivalry over the years is that somehow the Cowboys owners actually had the rights to the Redskins dog and it sort of used it as like negotiating leverage to, to get the Cowboys vote approved, I think. What, in 1960 or whatever it was. Yeah, that's, that's a really, really weird story that, that, you know, I, I, I guess it adds texture and depth to the entire, to the entire rivalry, but it also, it also confuses because you're like, how the heck did he even think of that? And how did it work? And, and I did Text care about.
- [37:41]
George Dunham
It so much in the eight Cowboy Band recorded and send it to him. It's just.
- [37:45]
Bob Sturm
That's right, because I'm guessing George Preston Marshall was out of the picture by then. Are we on to. Yeah, that was the Lakers owner, Jack Kent Cook, right? Yes.
- [37:56]
George Dunham
Yeah. Jack Ken Could.
- [37:58]
Bob Sturm
So yeah, I'm, I'm here for it. I, I, I, I'm a little confused but I, I love it. And, and, and your guys, your guys sounds awesome, man. This is, this is a depth of, of great knowledge here.
- [38:12]
George Dunham
He would, he would be worth having on maybe on our, on our station. The ticket had just given a bigger history because it was part of the game time presentation. You know, it's drowned out now by the Killers and Modest Mouse and whatever's played at at and T Stadium now.
- [38:30]
Bob Sturm
But thunderstruck.
- [38:31]
George Dunham
Thunderstruck. Oh yeah, you got to have thunderstruck. But okay, so there's a little bit of Cowboy history and you've been on your project of the 1975 team and this week is 50 years ago. I didn't realize this. And you talked about it this week the Cowboys open the Pontiac Silver dome.
- [38:53]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [38:54]
George Dunham
On October 6, 1975. Just drilling the Detroit Lions. And I even went back and saw the NFL films this week in the NFL on this with John Facinda talking about the Cowboys third win in a row.
- [39:11]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [39:12]
George Dunham
And this is where it started. Their run of the unlikely run of 75 started with all these young players and unknown players.
- [39:21]
Bob Sturm
Not only that, but 11 sacks of poor Greg Landry. 11. And you know, it was a big, they won 36 to 10 on this Monday night game. So this is week three. They started the season a little later. And so the Cowboys come out of the gate with two home games. They beat the Rams and the Cardinals in the first two weeks. And both of those were really good teams at the time. Believe it or not, the Rams were a power. Anybody that lived through the 70s know that. And then the Cardinals were kind of, they won the division in 74. Right. And they were a very dangerous team. So the Cowboys winning both those games at Texas Stadium and people are like man, Dallas going to be good this year with you know, because remember the.
- [40:08]
George Dunham
Just retired and all that.
- [40:09]
Bob Sturm
Well, I mean there's like eight guys who are classic Cowboys names who are all gone at the same time. Lilly and Bob Hayes and Walt Garrison and just Cornell Green and just going down the list of all these guys. And so everybody thought this is going to be a big retrenching year. It's the dirty Dozen year. And so they have one of the youngest teams in the league now and Roger is in charge of this group. And so they go up to Detroit and lay waste to the lions with a 21 point fourth quarter and just blew the game wide open. So they're up, they went 36 to 10 in Detroit. And yes, the. Of all the things in the game that, you know, Doug English was, was on that Lions team. And there's, there's, there's some fun things there, but of all the things, it's, it's that they're opening this marvel of, of modern technology, the Silver Dome, and.
- [41:09]
George Dunham
Just a wasteland now.
- [41:11]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, dude, it's been a wasteland for, like, I don't know, 20 years. I mean, the lifespan of stadiums is, is one of those things that's really difficult to wrap our heads around because in certain parts of the world, even here, like Wrigley Field and Fenway park and I guess Lambeau to an extent, but not quite. But some of these stadiums, they proudly stand for 100 or 150 years. Like in England. Some of those soccer stadiums, they go back to the 1880s, and they're great and they're maintained and they're renovated, but they're great and they still stand today. And yeah, the seats are too small and the bathrooms are too small, but they're wonderful, wonderful places. Kind of like the Cotton bowl, but others, we open them in 1975. Heck, we opened the ballpark in Arlington in 1994, and we had it closed by 2018.
- [42:10]
George Dunham
Yeah, about 20 years here now.
- [42:12]
Bob Sturm
20 years. So, yeah, the Silver Dome. We can't believe how nice this place is. And then we're going to replace it probably by about the year 2000, if I were to guess when Ford Field opened. Right. Yeah, maybe that place is getting old now.
- [42:27]
George Dunham
Yeah, they may want to start looking at a new one there. All right, little bit of cowboy history for you there. Next up for the Cowboys, the Carolina Panthers. Let's talk Cowboys defense and what they face the guy who used to play for him this week. And we'll do that next on the Musers the podcast, the Cowboys edition.
- [42:50]
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- [43:12]
Bob Sturm
At Lowe's.
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- [43:50]
George Dunham
It's George and Bob, your football friends the Muse, the podcast Cowboys Edition Cowboys in Carolina this week. And before we talk about what the Panthers present, would you. Because we haven't talked any about the Cowboys defense. It's been a very difficult watch in the first four weeks of the season. But game five, all the qualifiers, yes, it was the jets, it was Justin Fields and all that. But man, and going back and looking at the game for the first time, there was pressure.
- [44:23]
Bob Sturm
Yep.
- [44:23]
George Dunham
And more than just the five sacks. I'm talking about speeding up a quarterback that had some panic throws on Sunday and for good reason because he had someone breathing down his neck. There was more man coverage. And you mentioned Leopold finally getting some run. Shamar James because of injury, got some run and had the most tackles of any cowboy defender in 11 years. He had 15 tackles. Give me your defensive thoughts. Did you. Were you encouraged by what you saw?
- [44:56]
Bob Sturm
I was. I was encouraged specifically by the I'm going to, I'm going to cheat a little bit in my evaluation and say to me, George, the game was over when George Pickens caught the 43 yard touchdown to make it 30 to 3 with four minutes to go in the, in the third quarter.
- [45:17]
George Dunham
Game over. Without question, if it wasn't already over at 23, three, then right, 30 to definitely over.
- [45:23]
Bob Sturm
So I'm going to say at 30 to three, if we close the books on the game right there, like, like all the players probably did, then we say, okay, The jets had 43 plays and only got 163 yards and three points, 3.8 yards per play. And they did nothing for almost three quarters. I mean nothing. Ten first downs, a field goal, a turnover. And they just had the jets completely bottled up. And that's, you know, it's Garrett Wilson, it's Breece hall, it's Justin Fields, it's, it's, it's decent NFL players. So I'm not going to apologize for that. I like Mason Taylor, their tight end. So, you know, after that, the jets put some lipstick on a pig. But in those final 19 minutes by rolling up another 220 yards and 19 points and 6.8 yards per play. But I think the Cowboys were rotating and relaxing and up 27 and not too bothered by any of it, nor should they be. And by the way, the stadium was also empty and lifeless and it felt like a preseason Game from there on in, if we do that, if we separated the. By those lines, then I think we can say, I loved a lot of the Cowboys game. I love the pass rush. I love the rallying to the ball. I love Leo foul punching the ball a couple times and getting it loose. One time. I liked almost everything. Now I have to say almost everything because I put a reel on Twitter last night that, that you can find that contains six Bright Breeze hall runs. And I'm sure you looked at these as well. But the six, if you put them together on a reel, it will take you about a minute 20 to watch all six. And in that 80 seconds, you are going to feel like, once again, the Cowboys have one of the worst defenses in the NFL because that was brutal. So I, I don't know how to, you know, evaluate the entire game on the merits of, okay, it was really good, except these six awful plays. They are going to give up big plays. We know that. And if you are, I think I'm more comfortable with them being runs than Russell Wilson passes for touchdowns. But really, at its core, this team still doesn't defend the run very well. Kenny Clark did not fix everything. In fact, there are times where he's at fault. But more than anything, they just, they're just not good enough physically in their defensive front. And that is defensive tackle and that is linebacker. And, and specifically the two guys brought in here to, like, fix the Cowboys defense would probably. Or their linebacking group was going to be Kenneth Murray and Jack Sanborn. And I'm sorry, neither of them are NFL starters. In my mind, I'm sure they are good dudes who are trying hard and who, you know, love their family and everything like that. So I'm not trying to be mean here, but the Kenneth Murray tape for five weeks, I just. Waiter, just please take this away. I'm done with this. I just said how the Cowboys thought we should pay this guy 7.5 million to come here and fix this. I mean, he's, he's, he's very, very poor. And like I said, I loved him at Oklahoma and I thought he was going to be a great pro. But it didn't work with the Chargers. It didn't work with the Titans. For some reason, the Cowboys wanted to trade for him and they did. And I just think not only is he poor, but they've also given him the green dot, which means he's on the field every snap of every game. And it's almost like his position isn't even up for debate. And so I don't know what's going on, but they're like treating him like he's defensive Dak. And I realize I'm going in kind of hard on a dude who's, who's trying. But, but Sanborn poor as well. Although at least Sanborn's never really been a starter in this league, so we kind of knew he was probably a part time run stopper. And Shemar James got a lot of tackles, but he also, you know, a lot of them were out of position, rallying to the ball, so he's hustling. But, but I just think overall they really need some linebackers. And, and I know demarvian Overshone has been transformed into Ray Lewis since he's been injured into what's. What's coming to save us.
- [50:07]
George Dunham
He will help. He will help.
- [50:08]
Bob Sturm
He will help. But they probably also need a dude at linebacker and they probably can't get a dude until April.
- [50:17]
George Dunham
Okay, that's fine. But don't you. Wouldn't you rather have young players with a chance to get better like Leo Foul and James?
- [50:24]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [50:25]
George Dunham
Who could be better versions of themselves by November or December and. And therefore your defense is going to improve with them?
- [50:34]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, in theory I would. I don't know the value, George, of Kenneth Murray being the brains of like Traffic, copying the defense and making sure everybody's where they need to be and making sure the calls get there. And is that too much for a rookie 5th rounder? I don't know. And I'd love to talk with the brain trust of the defense to kind of hear their explanation, but as it stands, you know, they're. I want, on this defense, I kind of want every job up for grabs because when you're the 32nd best defense in the league, every job should be up for grabs. And right now I just feel like many of the jobs are up for grabs, but a few of them are not. And for whatever reason, Kenneth Murray appears to be one of those jobs that we're not even discussing anybody else. Now, maybe they don't have anybody else, but it's just weird to see of all the guys playing every snap, it's usually the two safeties and the two corners and that's it. And Murray actually is right there with them. And, you know, I just think every week when teams are running, they're actually kind of looking for him and they're kind of looking to attack the Cowboys right up the gut. So we have to keep an eye on it. I do think Carolina's going to Go to work on it. I do think Washington's going to go to work on it, the next couple opponents. But let's, let's not lose sight of progress. And progress was the Cowboys defense did not get embarrassed for three hours this week. And frankly, that's been happening every week. So we should lean into the good. And the good is they did some really good things. And you're right. Let's focus on past pressure in particular. And maybe James Houston and Dante Fowler did the best job of getting to the quarterback regularly on Sunday.
- [52:35]
George Dunham
So as some leaks started to spring and stopping the run. Now you see a Carolina team that started Rico Dowdle last week and his first start and he goes for 206 on 23 carries, the second most rushing yards in team history, only behind what Jonathan Stewart did back in 2009. And he had a career long run of 53 yards in the third quarter. Cowboy fans know all about him. It took him a while to get on the field last year, but once he did, he was really productive. We had this conversation on our station this week. What if this would have happened? What if the Cowboys would have gone to Dowdle early and said, we got a two year deal for you and still signed Javante Williams and then used the Jaden Blue draft pick. Not picking on Jaden. I think he, he has an upside. We just hadn't seen it yet. We hadn't seen him on the field until this week, but they seem to just kind of. They dismissed him when the season started last year and then when it was over, it's like, yeah, thanks. And then.
- [53:48]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [53:49]
George Dunham
We're really not that interested. I think this guy's pretty good.
- [53:52]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I liked, I like Dowdle. Now I can also say Javante Williams is objectively better in my head. And so there's, there's a spot for both of them, probably the Miles Sanders spot. If, if, if we were to be.
- [54:09]
George Dunham
Harsh, you could have done that. He could have spent the money that you spent on Sanders on.
- [54:12]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it sounds to me like the two sides disagreed on money and then the Cowboys just moved on. You know, they, I think they offered him maybe a take it or leave it number which was probably not super impressive. And, and it went away. And I think Dowdle never actually expected to leave. And then he finds himself behind Chuba Hubbard. And I think that's interesting. This week it sounds like Chuba has a real chance to play, but maybe they, maybe they keep him down another week because Rico looked so good or Maybe it's a little bit of a share. I know Dave Canales has at least intimated he has some decisions to make on who gets the ball, but I got no problem with Rico Dowdo. I thought, I thought he was a good Cowboy. I thought he put up with a lot of nonsense last year with the Dalvin Cook stuff and with Zeke and everything like that. I mean, 2024, if, if we thought anybody would want to read a really bad book, you could probably write a book on the 2024 Cowboys because there was just so much unnecessary chaos. Rico found himself right in the middle of it.
- [55:28]
George Dunham
Yeah, that was not a fun season. The, the year of give up the 2024 Cowboys. What do you think of Bryce Young, the Panthers quarterback who's had some really hard times? He has shown some flashes this year with the new coaching staff. He showed some signs last year. What do you, what do you think of him?
- [55:50]
Bob Sturm
I think it's in there. I know that's, that's a weird description of a guy. But, but with him there, there have clearly been some Sundays where you're like, okay, okay, that's what, that's what they thought when they went 1:1 with him. But of course, there are, there are some issues with, with size and with, you know, just, just being the type of. It's weird looking back that that guy was, like, qualified as a 1:1 and the Alabama effect and he's one of the, he's an absolutely fantastic kid. Like, we, we had him on the hard line when he won the Davey o', Brien and, and he, he blows you away almost in a Jalen Hurts sort of way when you talk to him. But there are some size things there and there are some vision things and, and you just, we just wonder what his ceiling is. And then you kind of look at their passing game, and it looks like a absolute work in progress where, you know, they don't get to 200 yards very often passing and, and they don't really yards per attempt ever get close to, like, league average. It's, it's very, very paltry and very unimpressive. And, and so I don't know, man, you're, you're, you're now a couple years into this, and of course, you're always going to have that C.J. stroud thing hanging around that, that you could have gone in that direction. And, and I realize Carolina has been down in the depths for, for quite a while since Cam Newton in, in many respects. I mean, they can't find the head coach and they can't find the quarterback situation. And it just feels like they're spinning their wheels year after year after year. Now, this year, to go get somebody as dynamic as Tet McMillan, who we loved, who we thought could be a Cowboy, the Arizona wide receiver, I mean, he's, he feels like a real, real franchise guy. And I know that so far they've had a real hard time, you know, getting him the ball enough, but the targets are very high. Like he is a, he is a dude where they are making sure we're throwing him the ball eight to ten times every single game. And we're going to put the ball in his hand and we're going to build the offense around him. And I think that's smart. So maybe the job for the Cowboys is, let's just make sure that when Ted McMillan explodes and gets like a two touchdown 120 yard day, it's not against us. And so it's a scary.
- [58:36]
George Dunham
Yeah, it is a scary matchup. I like Jimmy Horn Jr. Too. I think he's got some speed and some promise.
- [58:44]
Bob Sturm
Well, they, you know, and they got your boy Hunter Renfro, who, who we all loved at Clemson. And you know, so I'm looking at the Panthers as a dangerous opponent because we should look at everybody like that.
- [59:02]
George Dunham
Sharp teeth and claws. Yeah.
- [59:04]
Bob Sturm
Yes, they have sharp teeth and claws for sure. But they're also undefeated at home. I know it's early in the season, but when you just look at the Panthers splits and you say, okay, well, what should I be thinking here with the Panthers? Well, here's what you should be thinking. This is a team that is.03 on the road and two and oh, at home. And you're got to play them at their place. And they house the Atlanta Falcons by 30 and then they beat the goofy Dolphins. And so I don't know what any of this means, except they haven't lost a home game yet and you got to go play at their place. And you want to talk about pivotal things, George? I mean, here it is. This is a pivotal spot in the road where if you get to 3, 2 and 1 with Washington coming up, I mean, you're going to look at those next four games and say Washington at home, Arizona at home, at Denver and at Las Vegas, man, could we be six, two and you know, six, three and one by, by the time we get to, you know, the Thanksgiving home and home with the Eagles and the Chiefs, I mean, you could put yourself right into this if you take care of the Carolina Panthers. So, so you've done a lot of hard work this point of the season. Now you got an offense that feels good. You just need the defense to replicate what they did against the jets and just get to the passer, make things difficult, you know, make some third and fourth down stops like they did on Sunday. Get the ball loose once or twice and get out of there with a W. And we won't worry about style points again because this team's not good enough. But, you know, I think that's the recipe as we look to Sunday. That's a winnable game. I don't know what the line is yet, do you?
- [60:53]
George Dunham
Cowboys by three.
- [60:57]
Bob Sturm
Maybe.
- [60:58]
George Dunham
Yeah, something along those lines.
- [61:00]
Bob Sturm
Let me check our picks with friends early. She. Yeah, three and a half. Cowboys minus three and a half. Yeah, yeah, that's. That sounds about. That sounds about right. But yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's. It's not going to be the easiest afternoon. What I do think we should probably focus on is that that Panthers defense is, is, is pretty mid. You know, there, there are times where you go in there and they have some real pass rushers. And I just, I think right now that's another team that says, boy, when we get to the draft, we got to get a couple dudes on the edge because right now we're not getting to the passer nearly enough. And that's, you know, that's a tough way to win for a team like them. So if you can find a way to put some points on the board, you should be able to deal with most of what everything else looks like. Because the Panthers defense, unlike, you know, they're not bad. That's a, that's a decent defense.
- [62:02]
George Dunham
Pretty good against the run, which is interesting the way the Cowboys have run it. That, that, that's a clash. That. But you know, I almost think. And we haven't seen just a lot of teams matched up with the Cowboys, but call me crazy, even with these backup linemen, I feel decent about the Cowboys ground game against just about anyone.
- [62:23]
Bob Sturm
I do too. I do too. Because to me it translates in a way where I don't think it's the offensive line are five bulldozers. I really don't. I think they're getting scheme advantages right now. I think if you go back and look at some of those really good cowboy runs, you will find that yes, the offensive line are there and they deserve credit and they're doing their job. But what is really making it pop is deception, eye candy, you know, concepts that are catching the defense with their pants down a little bit, they're expecting outside zone, but they're actually getting a counter or a power play or you know, the pole lead or the, you know, there's. There. The Cowboys are running about six different pitches out there in their run game and, and I think the defense is, is guessing a little more than they used to against the Cowboys and I think they're guessing wrong. And so Javante sees a gap left unattended and he's pouncing. And so I guess what I'm saying is I don't need my offensive line to be the reason my running game's good anymore because my scheme and my running back are helping. And so now it's, it's the perfect relationship between line and quarterback and running back and offensive line coach and offensive coordinator and play caller. Like it's all making sense right now. And let's keep making sense because if all of this is clicking, Cowboys are going to keep competing and winning games.
- [64:06]
George Dunham
Well, speaking of the offensive line, you may think this is crazy, but the hot fried Georgie players of the week. I could narrow it down to the Fab four, but we'll throw Terrence Steel in there too. How about the offensive line of Terrence Steele, TJ Bass, Brock Hoffman and Nate Thomas as your hot fry Georgie players of the week, Hakeem A. Dennigy. Let's throw him in there too.
- [64:34]
Bob Sturm
Or Hakeem was worried he was about to get left out.
- [64:37]
George Dunham
He. He took all but six snaps, I believe and, and he was another one that evaluated really well. Yeah, not by me, but by the ones who actually grade this thing. And they couldn't say nicer things about him. I just think what they did should offensive linemen always get overlooked. I think what they did last week was really the key to the win.
- [64:59]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I do too. And I'll be eager to start getting some guys back. That's the thing is if you can win this Panthers game, there's a real chance that you might get a lot of your ones back. I think Tyler Smith is back already, which is great. The Tyler Booker, Tyler Guyton timeline with Cooper Beebe and CD Lamb and Kevonte Turpin, that is probably a wait and see as we go. But if you can somehow pull off a tie and two wins when you had a month of basically half your offense disappearing, man, that's a lot to be proud of in the first month and a half of Brian Schottheimer. So. So cheer up everybody. The Cowboys don't stink as bad as we thought they might.
- [65:47]
George Dunham
Yeah. See, we always make you feel better on football, friends. From opening up the Superdome, the history of the Cowboys band, to the hot fried Georgie player of the week, or.
- [66:01]
Underdog Sponsor
That's right, players.
- [66:02]
George Dunham
We just always. We make you feel good going into a Sunday matchup, hopefully.
- [66:08]
Bob Sturm
All right, so here's the last thing I wanted to ask you. Would you be interested in getting, I want to say, the guy. Do you remember the snowman who caught on fire at the Cowboys? Was it a playoff game? What was it, George? NFC title at Texas Stadium. So there was. What's the little steno. The little heaters. So if you've ever been, like, at a catering event, they have those little steno heaters underneath the food. Well, apparently the concessions people used to actually carry them with their concessions to keep the food warm as they're going up and down the aisles. And there was a guy there in the 70s in, like, a snowman outfit who was minding his own business until he got too close to the concessions dude and was lit on fire. And you want to talk about stopping down a playoff game? Well, apparently the guy who was lit on fire has been found and they're making, like, a documentary about him. So I think we can either get him or the guy making the documentary about the dude at Texas Stadium in 1978. So I'm just throwing out there if we're going to tell some good cowboy history stories. If you ever wanted to talk to the snowman on fire at Texas Stadium from 1978, I think we can make it happen.
- [67:32]
George Dunham
Same game where there was a live monkey on the first row.
- [67:38]
Bob Sturm
Yes. Yes. This is the same game where somebody brought a monkey into a. I think they actually bought him a ticket. Even so, I don't know how that works. I don't know if all primates need a ticket, but there's. There's a lot of material that we can supplement if the season goes real south. We have some other ideas along the way. I love it.
- [68:03]
George Dunham
All right, Bob, Another week in the books ought to be an interesting game. Can we at least say that, that the Cowboys are interesting?
- [68:10]
Underdog Sponsor
There's a lot of folks around the.
- [68:12]
George Dunham
Country thought, man, the Cowboys are just going to stink this year, and they still may. But it's been an interesting journey so far in these five weeks.
- [68:21]
Bob Sturm
Yes. If you're going to stink, stink. Make it fun for us sort of way. Yeah, yeah. But a little drama in there. So. No, this has been fun. And it's even more fun because of football friends.
- [68:33]
George Dunham
Absolutely.
- [68:34]
Bob Sturm
All right.
- [68:34]
George Dunham
That's another edition of Football Friends. Thanks to our producer, Peter Welton, and we will talk to you again next week.
- [68:50]
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