Bob Sturm (3:06)

Oh, you guys have an opening. Oh, okay.

George Dunham (3:08)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (3:09)

Which.

George Dunham (3:09)

Which does not speak well for turning over every rock from sea to shining sea and seeing if you can get Ben Johnson, seeing if you can, you know, kind of get. Get who everyone else is chasing. But that doesn't mean the guy you are chasing who nobody else is. It doesn't mean that's necessarily a horrible hire. Now, it does not necessarily also suggest the odds are in your favor to do that. To cast a very thin net, I suppose is the opposite of a wide net. I'm not sure. Skinny net, is that what we're going to go with?

Bob Sturm (3:44)

Sure.

George Dunham (3:45)

But whatever. Whatever net they cast, it does appear somewhat obvious. Georgie, what attracted them to Brian Schadheimer? Like, I would think he would be wonderful at asking you, what's it going to take to put you in this car today or sell you a house or sell you magazines or whatever. He shows up at your front door and you give him a minute or two of your attention.

Bob Sturm (4:16)

Hey, man, it's going to be a great day. And this magazine, magazine is going to make it even greater for you, man. And it's going to be great, man. And he, he's.

George Dunham (4:24)

He's. He's positive. He's happy to be going about his day. He wants you to be happy going about yours. And so, you know, this is all part of coaching. It. Coaching and politics are not that far apart necessarily because a lot of it is curb appeal, wrapping paper and convincing somebody that you know what you're doing. Now, like politics, I suppose, although maybe even more so than politics, the scoreboard will ultimately tell the tale. And at some point, your loyalists, maybe unlike politics, your loyalists will be very upset if you don't deliver on those checks that you wrote early on. So, so it's, it's. It's a matter of time. I think we've said this several weeks of the year that there is a Schottenheimer honeymoon. And it's important for him to get things done during this honeymoon and to deliver so that the honeymoon extends and the credibility extends and the ability to make decisions. So I get it. I get all of it to a point where maybe the biggest test for you and I, guys who've been doing this a really Long time. Do we still want to hear you at a press conference is probably a great example of whether or not your plan is at least selling us for now. So that's where he is because both of you wanted to hear it. And I will conversely say I didn't really care what Stephen and Jerry were saying because I've kind of heard it all and I don't know that I'm particularly convinced that what they say and what they do are the same things. Shoddy still has some credibility.

Bob Sturm (6:07)

Yes, I agree with that. Every point you just made there. Unless Jerry would have said and I'm on stop being the GM of this team.

George Dunham (6:18)

I Right.

Bob Sturm (6:19)

I really had no interest in what he said a little bit about Stephen, you know, talking about Pickens and he said very little. I'm not going to read into anything either one of those guys said. But I thought Shoddy had some interesting things to say. We talked about okay. This approach to free agency. I had hoped for more. I'm not saying they didn't do much. Jalen Thompson's going to help. So we'll lock at safety. And the trade for Rashawn Gary. Definite improvement and different looking defensive lineman acquired. We all cried at the departure of OSA Odigi Zua and Schottenheimer said as much this week that he cried on the phone with OSA and I believe him. I think he really does have great relationships with his players and I think that was a personal thing and I think it was probably a football thing too. Is man this may be our outside of Quinn and Williams, our best defensive player and we are trading him to a team that eventually we're probably going to have to go through. But I really maybe because even more so on that.

George Dunham (7:28)

George. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump. I wanted to say about osa. The thing about breaking up with Oso Digizua does feel like it's not about are you a good player? It feels like are you the right body type for what we want to do going forward? Which is a. Which is something none of us will probably run into in life is being told you were just. You're just not the shape of person we're looking for. Unless it's like a modeling career or something like that. It must be very weird because at the end of the proverbial day a football player is just trying to whoop the guy in front of him and he's going about his business. And maybe even the last regime says hey, this is the plane weight we want you at. Let's say 285. And then the new guy is hired and he's like, yeah, I'm kind of thinking 310. And we don't really think you can ever be 310, so we're going to flip you for somebody we think can be. And that's where I imagine there's a, There's a certain sadness because, you know, the guy, you know, he's busted his butt for you. You know, he's the right kind of guy. He's. He's been part of a lot of wars, good and bad, and you just, you know, you've established a relationship and now we're shipping him out because he's the wrong body type. Are we sure about this? And so I could see how that's a really weird deal because there's a lot of exits where you're like, bro, I can't wait for you to get out of our building. And I'm positive Odiggy Zuo was not like that, so I can understand.

Bob Sturm (9:03)

Well, and I think his fans, especially Cowboy fans, are jaded because they've had examples over the years. They were told, whatever it was eight years ago, that T.J. watt didn't fit their mold for an Edge player. And all we've seen him do is just wreck people for eight or nine years. Wait a minute. Yeah, I thought you said he wasn't the right kind of guy and.

George Dunham (9:26)

Right.

Bob Sturm (9:27)

That's. That's an eternal argument about the scheme and is he your type of player and all that stuff.

George Dunham (9:32)

So it is. But if OSA goes off in San Francisco, I bet you we'll get a little bit of that once again, you know, and by the way, rightfully so. I mean, you draft and develop him and you pay him and you've got his future secured. So there is an argument. And speaking of honeymoons, Christian Parker's on a honeymoon right now, so absolutely nobody's saying this, but there is an argument to be said that whatever your new defense is, you should definitely find a home for you. Probably your second best defensive player behind Quinn and Williams. But they decided to go the other way and we need to let them prove to us they know what they're doing. But yeah, of the off season second guesses that we are putting on the board, I think number one for now is certainly. Are you guys sure you Want to flip OSA Diggy Zua for pick 92? I guess, but really. Okay, well, let's. Let's see. Let's see how it goes.

Bob Sturm (10:30)

Yeah.

George Dunham (10:32)

Anyway, back to shoddy I'm sorry.

Bob Sturm (10:33)

No, that's good. Back to shoddy. And you mentioned this the last time we talked about the lack of maybe big names in free agency. The big one was Nakobe Dean for us, we did a big thing on him. Hey, this could be the guy. There's a Christian Parker familiarity. But you threw out the theory last time. Okay, so why does Nakobe Dean go to Las Vegas and they also get Quan Walker and Eric Stokes? Coy Walker, Sorry. Yes, Quay Walker. And you threw out the theory of. Well, and this has been reported. Hey, it's three guys from Georgia wanting to get the dudes together again. And along those lines, this is Brian Schottenheimer from the NFL owners meetings, and he agrees with that theory of yours.

Brian Schottenheimer (11:25)

Hey, we were trying, and if they don't take the money, they don't take the money, you know, But I, I felt like the offers that we made were very, very fair. They were big numbers. We were very competitive. But it's hard to compete with a couple former teammates that wanted to go play together. And there's different reasons about why you lose these guys, but we were very competitive. I will reiterate that. Very competitive in those deals. But that's the business, man. You know, you. You pivot and you get excited and that competitive juices and you get going. You're like, okay, all right, let's go. Next man up. And so again, we're. We're far from being done.

Bob Sturm (12:03)

See, I can hear the car salesman there. Hey, I know that car is on the lot, but this is really what you want over here. Yeah, and. And I understand that, and I, I get it. And by the way, we haven't seen too much of that in the NFL, have we? Hey, let's get together and get our college team back together again. We've seen it a few times, but this is a pretty high profile example of three players going to the same spot in the same free agency period that. I wonder if that starts a trend maybe.

George Dunham (12:33)

Well, I don't know. In fact, was the trend somewhat started and this wasn't them electing to do it, but when Philadelphia started drafting every Georgia Bulldog and putting them all together, Nicobi was part of that. When Jalen Carter and who was the corner they had? I can't remember the corner, but they had a corner. They had Jalen Carter, they had Nolan Smith, the Edge, and Nakobe, they had four or five different Georgia Bulldogs, all with the Eagles. And it's very possible Quay Walker and Eric Stokes were like, yeah, that seems kind of fun you guys are having out there. What if we. What if we have a Las Vegas branch of this Bulldog culture? I don't know. I mean, those, Some of those schools, like those Ohio State fellows, all going in the top five and top 10 in this draft, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure they keep in great touch. It's really interesting to me, and I didn't know this as a little kid watching the NFL, but I do know now that the college brotherhood seems almost stronger than the Pearl brotherhood in many respects, where you just see after games when guys get together or, you know, in the off season, it's. It's your college buddies. It's. It's all those guys you hung out with at Oklahoma or Texas or, or Georgia or Ohio State, where, Where those are. You're like your friends for life. And I, I assume that feels different when you're leaving home for the first time as opposed to when you're in that blurry NFL lifestyle, but it's a really interesting thing. And these, These college football programs, they. They seem to more now than ever, kind of have this fraternity feel to the. Where you're always in there. And if you were to get a tattoo of a, Of a football organization, you're more likely to put your college logo on your arm than you probably are your pro logos.

Bob Sturm (14:35)

Yeah.

George Dunham (14:35)

Whatever that's worth.

Bob Sturm (14:36)

No, and I think that's especially true for guys who stay together for three years if you, you know, got a bunch of transfers. I don't know if those dudes ever really get close, but I think you're spot on there. And. Okay, so whether he was selling something or not Shoddy made me feel better about that. Hey, we put out good competitive efforts. We're not done yet. Here we go. We got. There's other fish out there, and we can talk about some of those things.

George Dunham (15:02)

Yeah, you know, there, There. There are. It's.

Bob Sturm (15:06)

We.

George Dunham (15:06)

We do need to get into them. But I, I will say it is worth noting that they had a plan and now they have to alter that plan. And that's. That's life in the NFL and personnel departments all the time. And so, you know, you and I might look at draft prospects and we fall in love with, quote, our guy. And I know, you know, listeners do this all the time because their guy is usually a guy who went to their favorite college. And man, if we could get Arch Manning someday, boy, would that be the best thing ever. Right, Right. Or, or heck, Texas Tech people would are trying to Will Jacob Rodriguez to the Cowboys in some respects, because not only is he a local college, but he's also local high school. And, and, you know, that's. That's just touching all the bases that we love. And, And. And pro teams can sort of do that. But there are, you know, there are so many situations where you're building files and. And you and I both have friends in the scouting business and just know how deep their Rolodex is and how deep it has to be, because they can't afford to fall in love with anybody in this sport because they often go away, there's nothing you can do about it, or they get hurt, and you just. It just has to be onto the next one. So it's really. If you can look at it from a team standpoint, they. Their entire thing is, you know, we want to draft this guy, and then the team right before you is on the clock and somebody trades up and takes your guy. And now in five minutes, you have to alter your plans that you've made for five months. So you can't fall in love with any of these guys as much as you want. Nicobi Dean, you have to also have a list of. Yeah, but if we don't get him, here are three other guys that we think are of his exact quality. And that's where we are right now is that phase of whether it's a veteran or a rookie, how can we fill this hole? Because we can't fixate on one human for this very interchangeable job.

Bob Sturm (17:17)

So we're going to talk about linebackers a lot on this edition of Football Friends, and we're going to talk about who's available in the draft here in a second. But I thought this was also interesting from Brian Schottenheimer from the NFL owners meetings when talking about how he's been traveling, going to pro days, being at the combine, but the way that he really likes to evaluate talent. And I think it's very much in line with how a scout scouts. And let's listen to what he says here and then talk about it.

Brian Schottenheimer (17:50)

And I really don't think that pro days, seeing these guys do football drills in shorts really pushes the needle. I'd rather spend the time talking to them, watching the film in my office in Dallas and. And doing that. Getting to know them on a deeper level, Clarence, than I do watching them win the underwear Olympics. And sometimes you get fooled by that. Sometimes you're like, I know, I have. I've been like, yo, who is that guy? And then you start thinking, because he runs really Fast through cones and things like that. He's a great football player, and it doesn't always connect that way.

Bob Sturm (18:22)

I like that a lot because every scout that I've talked to over the years, they travel during the season and they go watch practice and they visit, you know, with coaches, and then they go to these pro days along with the head coach. But I really like that. No, trust the game. Don't fall in love with a guy all of a sudden has this great vertical and all those things Shoddy was just talking about there. Can he play? What level does he play? What does he do between the lines? And I think that's very in line with how a scout thinks. And I did have a Cowboy scout tell me last year and shot his first year. And by the way, I think he's light years ahead of where he was last year, and he's trying to put a staff together. And he's trying, right? I think he's much more in line. And he said as much this week at the owner's meetings. He said, man, he thinks like we do and he sees things the way we do, and more importantly, he respects the work we've done. They love him. It's another one of those parts of the building that, man, I'm all foreshadowed. I think he's great, but I like what I hear there. And, dude, they've got to get these picks right this year, maybe more than ever.

George Dunham (19:35)

Yeah, there's no doubt. They. They are definitely talking like, you know, town acquisition365. I saw Shadi say that and I saw Stephen both said, you know, they assured us that, hey, we're trying to make our team better every day of every year. And that's true. I don't doubt that for a second. But what I will add to that is kind of the premise that I kind of expect they're going to take most of this to the draft now and then. So we're in this lull that, what, March 10th is when free agency opens, and then it goes hard for a week, and then there's a second week of some activity, and then every team sort of says, okay, let's pull back on the reins. The first and second batches are completely gone. In free agency, there are guys out there that need jobs. But now let's get through the draft and see what we can do there, because is it right after the draft? And George, you may know this, and I may have to look it up, but as I recall, free agents you sign after the draft do not Affect your compensatory compensation the following year. Okay, yeah. So the compensation picks. Maybe we should explain this very fast. So compensatory picks are sort of a refund, a tax refund, if you will, on players you lose to free agency. And it's a formula based on the contract they sign and the type of player they are. But real quick, if you lose a great player, you'll get a third round pick in the next season. After the third round, they have compensatory picks and fourth, five, fifth, sixth and seventh. And it's a grade system basically. So the best players get you a third, the worst players get you a seventh, but you're being compensated for losing players. It's a sort of welfare for teams that don't sign free agents. And the reason I say that is teams that sign free agents lose or they don't lose their picks, but they're ineligible for compensatory picks relative to the guys they sign and the guys they lose. It balances out to net zero. So the only teams that get compensatory picks are teams that don't sign other free agents of that similar financial investment. So teams who shop in March never get comp picks. Teams that only lose players in March get a stack of them. And over the last several years, we've seen the Cowboys say that's important to us. So they often end up with extra picks, Three, four, five extra picks. And. And so at this point, teams will say, stop signing players. And if we want this guy, let's tell him we'll talk after the draft because I believe in May and in June when you sign free agents who are still available, you are not at all privy or required to sacrifice compensatory picks. So I hope that was clear.

Bob Sturm (22:54)

And you see your draft at that point, you think, oh, geez, we need to go here and you can stock without penalty. And right now it's a pretty bare cupboard, but you can get a couple of guys there that can make your team okay. This is something Bob is really good at. I am. I am admitted A. Is it novice or novice at this but evaluation thing. Evaluation of linebackers who will be in the draft. We're going to go through those names next. And could some of these at the top of the list fall to the Cowboys at 12? That's one of the big questions will try to answer next.

George Dunham (23:42)

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customers customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates.

Bob Sturm (24:14)

Potential savings will vary.

George Dunham (24:15)

Not available in all states or situations.

Bob Sturm (24:21)

The tournament is back. The upsets are inevitable and underdog is the best place to get in on the action. Playing on underdog is easy. Just pick whether your favorite player will go higher or lower on stats like points, rebounds, steals and more. Get your picks right, you could win up to 5,000 times your cash. Last week I went higher on Luka's point total and one big let's keep it rolling this week. Download the app today and use the promo code musers to score $50 in bonus entries when you play your first $5. That's promo code Musers. Underdog make picks win money must be 18 or older, 19 or older in Alabama and Nebraska, 19 or older in Colorado for some games 21 or older in Arizona, Massachusetts and Virginia and present in a state where underdog fantasy operates. Terms apply. Concerned with your play, call 1-800-Myreset or 1-800- gambler or visit ncpgambling.org in Arizona. Call 1-800-next-step 1-800-639-8783 or text next step to 533-42 in New York. Call the 24 7-Hope line at 1-878-Hope NY or text hopeny to 467-369. All right, the NFL draft fast approaching. It'll be later this month. The Cowboys with two first round picks at 12 and 20. That's a lot of draft capital. As you have noted, Bob, the most draft capital the Cowboys have had in quite some time. So what can they do with it? Who will fall to them? And after this free agency period, we see there is a blinking light at linebacker. And if the Cowboys are running a three, four, they're going to need inside linebackers and outside linebackers. And it's a good year for linebackers, but it's going to be interesting to see how it falls. And before we go player by player, real quick, it, it's just amazing. I'm sorry, how did Ohio State lose to anybody this year?

George Dunham (26:22)

Right? Yeah.

Bob Sturm (26:23)

With as many players as they're going to have go in the top 10, the top 15, the top 20. And what a program. Oh my gosh, they just, they just every year just keep pumping out players.

George Dunham (26:39)

In fact, it's worth noting since, since we, we did talk about that for a moment. It's worth noting that in this particular draft, the Big Ten has finally sort of had enough of the SEC's dominating of the top of the NFL draft. I think if you went back the last 10 years and counted first round picks by conference, not only does the sec win all 10 of those years, but they probably win them by two or threefold. Just domination. Just absolutely. Personnel machines. And I'm not saying in any way the SEC is dead, but the way the Big Ten is taking back the mantle in 2026, a lot of Ohio State, a lot of Indiana, a fair amount of your Penn states and your Oregons and you know, certainly the expansion hasn't hurt, but I would just say the Big Ten is up for a massive draft. And I'm, I think there's only two or three SEC guys in the top, say 20 picks this year, which is a stark departure. I assume it's just a weird year and they'll be back. But it is interesting to note.

Bob Sturm (27:52)

Okay, so Bob is really good at this. He is a draft nerd. He is a draft nick, and he leads our draft coverage on the ticket in Dallas. And we came up with a list of five linebackers that we think are at the top of the list. And some of these guys, you may see them listed as an outside linebacker, but they could still play what's basically inside in a 3, 4 scheme that the Cowboys are now going to employ. And so Bob's written about it. He's watched a lot more tape than I have. I did invest tape time. I took my own notes. I leaned on others like you and some other draft evaluators. And let's go, let's go through the top.

George Dunham (28:38)

Okay.

Bob Sturm (28:39)

And there's no doubt the top linebacker in this draft is Arville Reese, the linebacker out of Ohio State. Man, he is a dude. 6, 4, 2, 43, had a boatload of tackles last year, made plays behind the line of scrimmage. Key thing about him, and by the way, I've seen him going as high as number two to the Jets. I don't think he's there at 12, but he's seen as the best linebacker. And this is a type of player that, that Jerry talked about at the owner's meetings and some said he's describing Micah Parsons and I guess that's true. But that's who the Cowboys are looking for, someone who can play outside linebacker, maybe off the ball linebacker and edge. And that would be Reese. He's Awesome. And the man, I just, he stands out. He. He stood out the opener to me against Texas. And anything you watch, any game you watch from him, you. He pops off the screen.

George Dunham (29:43)

Yeah, I think Reese and Sonny Stiles both being from Ohio State, and when you watch one of them, you're watching both of them, so. So it's, it's kind of fun to break them down. And I think Reese, I had him throughout this process as an edge because I do have such a fascination with Micah Parsons and the entire Micah Parsons backstory going, you know, all the way at Penn State. He was not a pass rusher. He sat out that whole Covid season. They would use him as an off ball linebacker and very, very little indication that he would ever be one of the best sack guys in the entire NFL. And then a light went on and some people say it was a DeMarcus Lawrence injury in that game against the Chargers. Just a necessity made this happen.

Bob Sturm (30:33)

How about a Dan Quinn evaluation of, hey, wait a minute, look at this guy.

George Dunham (30:37)

Right, right. And Dan Quinn deserves a ton of credit. But anyway, now, you wouldn't think of playing Micah Parsons at off ball. You only think of him as an edge. Heck, you might just think of him as a defensive end now. And whatever you think of him as, it's a guy who is so physically gifted that he just can't be blocked. And he has a relentless combination of speed and power that just make him a top, top, top edge rusher. So Arvel Reese, when you watch him, I think there's every indication that if there is somebody that resembles Micah Parsons in this draft, and I want to be clear because we do this in the draft game in every sport, there is not a Micah Parsons in every draft. There is definitely not a Puka Nakua in every draft. And these names get thrown around as comps for these kids. I assume it's as much a curse as it is a blessing. But I just want to say, odds are you will not find another Micah Parsons in this draft. Even though last year we said Abdul Carter might be like Micah Parsons and this year we're going to say Arvo Reese might be Micah Parsons. I doubt it. However, he's unbelievable. And the reason I had him at edge is when you see him at edge, you see that sack machine. However, at Ohio State, there are full games where he doesn't play edge. He just plays regular linebacker. And he's super gifted when he does that. And I just, you know, I think he's fantastic. And I can't imagine there's any chance he gets to the Cowboys. But it's almost like one of those Michael Jordan, Dean Smith things where the joke is the only guy who could stop Michael Jordan at North Carolina was the way Dean Smith coached him and just sort of kept him under wraps. And that feels like what Ryan Day and Matt Patricia did at Ohio State is, is they. They only let Arbel Reese play edge in. In certain situations, in certain games. Otherwise, he was a good, really good linebacker. And if you just judge him as a linebacker, George, I think he's the best linebacker in the class.

Bob Sturm (32:37)

Yeah. That's what amazed me is some. Most of the time he's right in the middle of the Ohio State defense. And maybe their idea was, this is our best player and in the Big Ten, people are going to try to smash it right down your throat. Let's put him in the middle. Now. If it is a passing down, I was really impressed with how he would rush the passer. He can pressure off the edge, he can pressure up the middle. He can run stuff. He's got really long arms. Yeah. He's just. And he's only 20 years old. And we'll go. As we go through these guys, I will say no way he's there at 12. But how about this one, Bob, real quick?

George Dunham (33:18)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (33:19)

You buy any. Any of the hype that the Cowboys may be a team that would be willing to trade up?

George Dunham (33:27)

I do believe that they're always sniffing around. I don't know that it would be particularly smart, but this might be the type of year where you say, let's not let 12 come to us. I think I said this last week, but it does bear repeating. When I go through the simulations of what this draft could be like, there are many times where I am sort of disgusted at what arrives at number 12. So if the Cowboys feel the same way that they are crossing their fingers that the draft breaks right so that they get something great at 12 and 20, then they might talk themselves into, well, what if we took 12 and 20 and tried to go get something? And I've heard the argument that would you take. Is it the Browns where you could get 6 and 39 for 12 and 20? Could you do something like that? Well, then, gosh, I would do that all day because there are plenty of guys at 39 that I would feel weird taking at 20. But if I'm also getting the sixth player in the draft now, I'm almost certain I'm going to get one of those three, three blue chip Ohio State defenders. I Would you know at number six because Mendoza is going one. I can almost guarantee either Caleb Downs, Sonny Stiles or Arvell Reese or a couple of them will get to number six. And that's really exciting.

Bob Sturm (34:57)

Yes, that is. And that brings us to Sonny Styles, linebacker, Ohio State 65244. He moved from safety at one point. He was a safety. Some say he's still learning linebacker technique, but yeah, to me they're just 1A and 1B recent styles. I, in fact, I've seen some mocks where they go back to back at two and then at three, Arizona takes Styles. I could definitely see that. And I noticed this. I heard one evaluator say if there's anything with a 6, 5 frame, sometimes he goes in a little high to tackle. And he's still learning linebacker technique. He had 100 tackles in the 24 season at 82 last year, man, him and a Cowboy uniform would just be outstanding. Will he be there? What do you think of him and will he be there at 12? I guess there's an outside chance. I have seen a couple of mocks. I haven't done the Bob Sturm. I actually did do that. An experiment with the simulator. I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, but I could never get. It's rare to get him to drop the number 12.

George Dunham (36:11)

That's true. I would not anticipate he's there, but if he is, I run to the podium. I think he's fantastic. He now the difference between the two is that he does feel like one of those sideline to sideline running backs that blows up run plays and and is just more of a traditional linebacker. Right. So, you know, Arvo Reese could, I could see 10 sacks in a season in his future. Sonny Stiles can rush the passer, but it's those a gap blitzes you see from, you know, from running hit linebackers rather than having actual pass rush moves that could put a, you know, put a tackle in a bind. So I, you know, I think he's the type of guy that gets your guys lined up. I think he makes a lot of big plays. He's where he's supposed to be. He's also got those bloodlines. I don't know if you remember his dad, Lorenzo Styles.

Bob Sturm (37:05)

Absolutely.

George Dunham (37:06)

At Ohio State. But that Ohio State Styles family, him and his brother are both Buckeyes and he's like been born to do this. Also, it should be pointed out with Reese and Stiles, these guys are babies. These guys. You know, the thing about Ohio State is they get five star dudes. They're there for age 18, age 19, age 20, and then they're bouncing. And so they're an NFL factory. They're usually not red shirting and they're usually not legal to drink by the time they get to the NFL. We saw this even with Zeke. Like, they're so young when they get here, but that also means they've got, you know, some, some growth yet to do. Whereas when we talk about, say, Jacob, Roger Rodriguez, you know, he's darn near 25. And so, so we do have to at least bake that into the valuations of these guys.

Bob Sturm (38:00)

Yeah. So as we move on to the other three linebackers, we're going to look at C.J. allen, Anthony Hill, Jacob Rodriguez. Now you're starting to talk about is 22 high to take them. Is this, if you, if you did trade down, would these guys be available? Maybe with the 20th overall pick we can, we can talk about that. And heck, maybe even with the third round pick that the Cowboys acquired, maybe one of these guys would be there. Doubtful. But I still think you're talking about terrific quality. And maybe this is why the Cowboys would trade down from number 20, get some, some other draft equity and then later in the first round take somebody like C.J. allen, the linebacker from Georgia, all American, all over the field. I remember specifically the Texas game. They could not block him. Number three was everywhere. The film I watched on him, very similar to the Texas game. Some criticize that maybe he's not athletic enough. He doesn't move his hips the right way. Man, I don't know. He's, he's 6, 1, 2, 30, he's all over the field and projected at around maybe the 22nd best player. So I could see the Cowboys taking him at 20 and I'd have no problem with that because I think he's going to be a terrific pro.

George Dunham (39:32)

Yes. So there's a lot here. And let me first just show my cards and say if, if I could will a guy to the Cowboys, it's probably going to be C.J. allen. I, I would be all over taking him at, at, at 20. That would be delightful. I, you know, it might be a little high, but I don't, I don't care. I, that's a, that's a player that I feel not only great about from a standpoint of the ability for him to destroy run plays and kind of, as you said, go sideline to sideline and very difficult to block him. He gets around blocks. He knows what he's doing, very, very intelligent. And what I really like is he's from that Kirby smart, very similar Nakobi Dean, you know, training in that. I, I get a guy who can coordinate my defense from that position. Like he's getting guys in their spot. He's recognizing things. I can tell from watching his film that he is watching film like he is anticipating run plays before they happen. I love that of a player where I can just see that he's a student, he's got that Sean Lee in him and that he recognizes plays. You know, when you break the huddle just from your alignment. And so there's a lot there. I definitely recognize that if I'm taking a linebacker who is a coverage linebacker who can run pass routes down the field at a similar, you know, way that I would expect a safety, he might not be my guy. So. So I don't disagree that the hips are a little tighter than I might want for a guy to turn and run. But I honestly, at this point, I want a coach on the field who can make plays and just play traditional linebacker like I want it played. And then the kill shot on my case here, if I'm trying to sell to the audience, would be this one. They hired the outside linebacker coach from Georgia, Chadro Uzo De Rebay, I believe is his name. And he is on this team, on this coaching staff. And so if, if anybody has the intelligence, the, the, the info on whether CJ Allen is our type of guy, it would be in this coaching room right now. So I would, I would circle that with red ink that, that that might be something they want to get out of round one with CJ Allen from

Bob Sturm (42:02)

Georgia, man, I would love that too also. And just, you know, reading about their defense, he was considered the leader of the. Has real leadership skills, which speaks to what you were talking about. Obviously a big film study guy comps. Some say he's very Roquan Smith, like, okay, sign me up. Yeah, sign me up for that. I was really impressed when he did blitz, man. Geez. It was more than just the Texas game. It. If he did blitz inside, some of that anticipation that you mentioned, they just seem to know where to go, how to wreck a play and yeah, I love that one, Bob. I think if you're going to go linebacker and he's available at 20, you just wonder with some of these guys, do they. Are the Cowboys going to miss out on, on recent styles? And does someone like Allen take a hop just because, you know, some guys jump as the draft Gets closer. I wonder if he's going to be one of those guys who becomes a top 20 pick by the time it's later this month.

George Dunham (43:10)

Yeah, it's going to be interesting. I know, I know. You know, his, his pro day got a few people nervous. But, but this is one of those positions where I might argue I would take a, a slightly less athletic linebacker to get a slightly more intelligent one. And I think that's where C.J. allen checks a lot of box.

Bob Sturm (43:30)

Okay. A couple of linebackers from Texas teams. Anthony Hill from the University of Texas. Twenty may be a little high for him, but a really productive player. Loved watching him at Texas. Some think that last year maybe he, he didn't have the big splash season that some anticipated after had over 100 tackles and 24. I don't know. I see someone who could really help out the Cowboys though. At 6 to 2:38, he can make plays behind the line of scrimmage. He can be a three down linebacker. I saw probably Hill and Jacob Rodriguez, who we're about to talk about the most. I love him. I just. Is 22 high for him. Is that reaching too much if there's no other linebacker available?

George Dunham (44:24)

Yeah, it's one of those weird things. Right. Because he's obviously an unbelievable talent and he's obviously done a lot of great things, whether it be Denton Ryan or with the Texas Longhorns. And it would be wise to expect his pro career will be very, very good as well. My only issue with Anthony Hill, and this is a weird thing to say, but I just wanted to love the tape more than I did. Like there's nothing wrong with him. I just wanted. My friend Dominic says, I just want to see moments that make me sit up to the edge of my chair and want to see more. Like he was, he was good. He was probably very good. He was solid. He wasn't spectacular. And I think the other four guys that we've named, they all had some tape that made you want to call your buddies and say, you won't believe what I just saw. So maybe this is only because Anthony Hill at the start of the season was advertised as, this is one of those special guys that will do special things that you, you go in, it's almost like you go to the movie theater being told that this is the greatest movie you'll ever see. And then you're like, yeah, it was really good, but it wasn't the greatest movie I've ever seen that. So that might be unfair and I might live to regret it. But I, I would say Anthony hill's a top 50 guy. I would not say he's a top 20 guy. Based on the 20, 25 tape that I evaluated. I, you know, and I could be wrong. That's one of the things about evaluating tape is you, you want to leave the, the very real possibility that you're just not seeing it. Right. Or that his coaches were not asking him to do the same things as the other guys. But of these five, he was my fifth favorite. And that it doesn't mean he's bad, it just means that he's not the other four, in my opinion.

Bob Sturm (46:21)

Yeah, I, I guess it's a decent possibility that they consider him at 20. I'm just thinking he's going to fall into an area where the Cowboys don't have a pick.

George Dunham (46:33)

Yes.

Bob Sturm (46:33)

After 20, somewhere in the second round, before the third round pick, probably. But yeah, I just, I don't think it's going to work out for positioning for him unless, you know, the draft order changes somehow. And that brings us to Jacob Rodriguez out of Texas Tech.

George Dunham (46:53)

Yes.

Bob Sturm (46:54)

The thing that I write down anytime I talk about J. Rod is a very, very strong mustache. I think that helped him make so many tackles at Texas Tech this year. The defensive player of the year in the Big 12. Degursky Bed. Narrick Lombardi, Butkus Award winner. Man, he is awesome and can do so many different things. Great rungs, run stopper. And I don't know, maybe you have. Bob, you've watched a lot more of this stuff than I have. Have you ever seen a guy in one football season have seven forced fumbles from the linebacker position?

George Dunham (47:34)

You know, that's the thing, is if the name of the game is to get the football, he got the football 13 times with forced fumbles and six more times with interceptions in the last three seasons at Texas Tech. When you talk about a linebacker generating 19 takeaways by himself and six sacks, add those. Add 25 and a half tackles for loss. I mean, the productivity. So this is, for me, George, it's the exact opposite of Anthony Hill. And take this for how you want. You know, I don't mean to be unfair to either guy, but I entered the Anthony Hill, Jacob Rodriguez thing expecting that. I would love Anthony Hill way more and Jacob Rodriguez away less because, well, where do we start? He's like 24 years old, or he will be by opening day. He was a quarterback when he was at Virginia, which I think is key.

Bob Sturm (48:43)

I think he's got great footwork and

George Dunham (48:46)

knowledge of what offenses are doing. So, so it's, it's weird going into this and maybe there's some, some profiling is. You're just like, okay, this guy, Big 12, it's not like the NFL. I'm not going to like him as much as these other guys. Then you watch the tape and you're like, where do I sign? I'm in love. He's unbelievable. If there's a negative, and this is a weird one, he's so good at punching the ball out that sometimes I think he spends a little, a little too much time trying to punch the ball out and not enough time making sure the tackle is secured. But at the same time, he's a really good tackler. He's. His athletic testing was insane. Like, he is not a good athlete. He is a great athlete. And maybe the mustache throws us off, I don't know. But the guy is a 39 inch vertical. Are you kidding me? The 40 yard dash is great. The, the 10 yard split is great. The three cone, which I really look at for this type of player, was elite. The shuttle was elite.

Bob Sturm (49:55)

So.

George Dunham (49:56)

So the way he sees the game, the way he anticipates, the way he gets the football, the way he's athletically gifted as a tester, he's older and I'm concerned about that. But if you're asking for a guy who fits the window, who's ready to be a star right now, I don't think. And boy, boy, I didn't know what I didn't expect. I would say this, George, a month or two ago now I'm like, yeah, maybe at 20. And that's crazy. Like, he was not really a top 50 guy when the season started, but the tape is too good that I could actually talk myself. Yes, I'd love to trade back and get them too. Don't get me wrong. But if there's no trade back and you're saying, am I willing to go from 20 to 92 hoping there's a linebacker there for me, or am I going to be hitting the remaining free agents to am I going to have to call Kenneth Murray back, for crying out loud? You have all these scenarios where you might panic a little bit. And if panic means I leave this draft with Jacob Rodriguez or CJ Allen a little higher than I should have taken them, I'm fine with either one of them. I prefer Allen, but I think Rodriguez is going to be a stud and I saw enough tape to say, let's go do it.

Bob Sturm (51:19)

Yeah, I love him too. I didn't Miss many snaps of Texas Tech football this year. And he was, he was an exciting defensive player to watch and love his story, you know, his wife, army helicopter pilot, well documented. I love the fact that he plays catch with fans before the game. I just, I don't know. Yeah, I'm, you know, you love and I, you talk about it. I hope I'm not rooting for him so much that I'm vaulting him up the, the draft board. And I have to stop myself before I put him up to 20 because I wonder how many teams would be willing to make him a first round pick. But he's. He may have been the best linebacker outside of the two dudes from. Okay, I can, I think I can say that outside of the guys from Ohio State, he's the best linebacker. Most productive linebacker in college football last year. Does it translate to the NFL? That's what we're going to find out here the next five years.

George Dunham (52:20)

And that's why his testing was very important to me. And he did a great job. He knocked it out of the park and so, you know, asked and answered. It may be remembered hilariously that Bob thought Jacob Rodriguez was going to be a better pro than Anthony Hill. But I'm going for it. I've seen enough. I like them both, they're both great stories, they're both local kids. But just trusting the tape. I have to trust that Jacob Rodriguez to me has a higher upside and a more immediate upside than Anthony Hill. So hopefully when this is played back for me in 10 years, I'll have a good. I'll have a good sense of humor.

Bob Sturm (53:06)

Quickest three cone drill and in. I think that's combine. Yeah, at the combine and tied for the second and the 20 yard shuttle. So that's the test we were talking about. They're really, really good. Okay, as we finish up, one more,

George Dunham (53:25)

one more name I just wanted to throw out there is Josiah Trotter, Jeremiah Trotter's kid. He's got a brother who plays for the Eagles, Jeremiah Trotter Jr. But Josiah Trotter from Missouri, again, did not expect to love that tape that much. Probably a second round guy, but he was fantastic as well. I know there are other linebackers out there, but those six are the ones to really hone in on Josiah Trotter from Missouri. Maybe down there with Anthony Hill somewhere. Fringe. Top 50ish for me, but. But I really like them both.

Bob Sturm (54:03)

I remember his brother and his dad. Lumberjacks at Stephen F. Austin.

George Dunham (54:08)

There you go.

Bob Sturm (54:09)

Trotter, linebacking family.

George Dunham (54:11)

Yeah, Unbelievable.

Bob Sturm (54:12)

That'd be good, but yeah, maybe another one of those guys that falls in the category that unless the Cowboys acquire a second round pick, he may not match up with where they have selections. Okay, Jerry and Steven had a couple of interesting things to say as it relates to George Pickens. Let's finish up there on football Friends.

George Dunham (54:36)

If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With sleepscore, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high. Know your sleep score With Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required protein is

Bob Sturm (55:07)

now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new new protein lattes or matcha.

George Dunham (55:16)

Try it today at Starbucks.

Bob Sturm (55:22)

Okay.

Brian Schottenheimer (55:23)

Bob.

Bob Sturm (55:23)

Is it bad that anytime Jerry speaks now, especially in the off season, I almost need like a, a month without Jerry speak, Stephen. To a lesser degree, in fact. If it has to do with George Pickens or any sort of hey, is this guy going to be signed thing, I, I perk up when I hear Steven. I almost need a two to three month break from Jerry. Is that bad? Am I a bad person?

George Dunham (55:51)

If you are bad, I'm right there with you. So you're bad too. I, I think it's amazing that the, the press corps mobilizes to go out there because Jerry might speak. And I understand what gets the clicks and what sells the papers, but the fact that Jerry might speak is kind of what's wrong with this whole organization, in my opinion. And I just see very little value in it, except it is irritating, if you will. It's part irritating and part entertainment to see Jerry say things like he did about George Pickens, which, the one that really jumped out at me because in my mind they're definitely franchising him and they're smart to do it. And honestly, they might just franchise him again because two franchise tags. If Pickens is willing to play like that, which there's a really good chance he's not, but if he is, I think you should at least attempt it. You get George pickens on a 2 for 60, roughly, and 2 for 60 is way less than an extension would cost. You know, the annual average value of an extension probably starts at 32 or so. And you probably got to go four years on that. And so. And by the way, he might be asking for 38. And we talked about this last week with Pukinakua's new deal coming up and Jackson Smith and Jigba's deal coming up, he might be asking for 40. And there are actual statistical, you know, rankings that suggest that he's right there with those guys based on 20, 25, which is what his agent will do. But. But the thing that jumped out at me was his agent, David Mulligetta, who, as far as I can tell, has never on the record done anything that makes him unlikable publicly. I don't know him well, but it seems like he conducts himself like an agent, which usually means I'm not going to say anything that's going to hurt my clients chances of getting business done. For whatever reason, Jerry's got something going there. And maybe there's a. Or maybe maybe he bumped a beverage that Jerry was holding at a. At a, you know, mixer at some point. I don't know. But I do know that Jerry had the audacity, one year after Micah to basically circle back and say, you know what? George Pickens can save a lot of money if he just deals directly with me and not with an agent. And. And I, first of all, fans may cheer for Jerry Jones just because it's. It's more fun to do that, I suppose, than to, you know, just to think that he's ruining things. But, man, I'm almost positive, George, that's against the CBA to knowingly circumvent agents when they've been hired by a client to represent them. And Jerry did it with Micah, and he was more than happy to admit it, like he was proud of it. And now the exact same agent and the exact same owner, and Jerry's kind of intimating that Pickens should do the same thing. And I just don't know that that in any way helps you get deals done with your most important players.

Bob Sturm (59:20)

So I know, and I hear that, and I think, oh, man, is this thing going sideways? Is he not going? By the way, I don't care if he shows up to. Is it minicamp or the other one where you.

George Dunham (59:33)

Otas.

Bob Sturm (59:34)

Otas. If he doesn't show up to that, I guess I really don't care if it's a training camp thing. I can't stomach another one of those. I really can't. We've had that every year at Cowboys camp. But see, this is how I get my news. I saw a TikTok video with CD and George Pickens dancing in an SUV. So that makes me think that he's close to signing a deal because the rap song had to do with my effing money. And so I think that's my hunch that maybe, I don't know, maybe they are close to an extension.

George Dunham (60:11)

Maybe they are, maybe they are.

Bob Sturm (60:13)

But this is, I mean, I think

George Dunham (60:14)

my takeaway from that is you're on TikTok and I had no idea.

Bob Sturm (60:18)

Well, they just come up on, you know, other forums and, and then they have the tick tock thing at the end. I don't, I don't doom scroll too much on TikTok, but it does give me content like that, that I write down. Like, okay, they get me close to deal with Pickens because CD and George seem to be having a really good time together.

George Dunham (60:37)

Okay, well, good. I hope they're having a fun time and I hope they're staying out of any mischief, which I'm sure they are. And, you know, let's have a happy spring time. If you're a football player, it's time to get your mind right and I suppose get your money right.

Bob Sturm (60:53)

That one's on me. I watched too much of the Banana Splits growing up. That's. That's just probably a dumb way to look at anything in the NFL. Hey, this is something we didn't do last week. Just real quick here.

George Dunham (61:07)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (61:07)

As we talked about linebackers available in the draft. It's a good draft for linebackers, but I can't leave behind what Shoddy was saying about, hey, and we're not done yet. We're not done yet. Which has cowboy fans thinking. Okay, well, last year they got George Pickens after they didn't draft a wide receiver. So maybe that's what he's talking about there. Are there some, I don't know if likely is the, the right word, but are there some legitimate possibilities, like Jordan Brooks with the Dolphins that maybe the Cowboys would make a trade for or Patrick Queen with Pittsburgh? Do you think there are. Those are two examples. But does it make you think, hey, maybe they got a deal or two on the side that could work out for him if they don't see the linebacker that they want?

George Dunham (62:05)

Yeah, I think so. Now, I prefer of the two, I think Brooks is a far better player than Queen. I think if you end up with Patrick Queen, you're, you're probably not super excited, but you're saying, I've got to have an NFL starter, so let me get the best available. That, that we can acquire for less than, you know, a really expensive price.

Bob Sturm (62:31)

I just.

George Dunham (62:32)

You know what I think? I think if you look back to last year at this time, and we're getting ready for the draft now, we don't have football friends yet, so this is. We didn't have this conversation probably, but I probably was talking with Dominic or Corby or whatever about the Cowboys best case scenario in the draft. And I'm almost certain we talked about Tetaroa McMillan.

Bob Sturm (62:55)

Yes.

George Dunham (62:55)

As we got to go get this big time wide receiver to put next to CD Lamb. And so we wanted Ted McMillan, and he's turned out to be a great pro already with Carolina, but Carolina snagged him. And Carolina's been doing that to the Cowboys a few times in these last five years because they also got the corner the Cowboys wanted when the Cowboys had to settle for Micah Parsons in that 20, 21 draft. So it's full circle when they took J.C. horn. So I guess when we're fixating on Ted McMillan and I guess what, Matthew golden might have been the second wide receiver. We were keeping an eye on the Texas Longhorn. They didn't grab a wide receiver at all. They took a guard, they took Tyler Booker, and we're like, what are they doing? What are they doing Now? I'm almost positive they take Tet McMillan if he's there. But they had Tyler Booker ranked ahead of Matthew golden, and that is a defendable position. So I guess what we're saying is we look at free agents and the draft as two separate things. I'd like to think somewhere in that personnel department, they've got guys ranked who are veterans and draft picks, and they have that stack. And somewhere after Tet McMillan at the wide receiver position was that George Pickens idea. And they circled back to that, I think, on May 7 or May 15 or whatever the date was last May after the draft. But before, you know, things got too far into the summer, they go and make that trade with Pittsburgh. And so if the question is, do they have, let's say, two linebackers or three that they would be willing to take in the first round, probably not four, to be fair, I said four today. But I, I know for a fact after talking to my scout friends that I have a lower bar of desperation than they do the Cowboys, or let me not say the Cowboys. Most personnel departments aren't nearly as desperate as fans or media like we are. Like, I gotta have somebody panic, panic, let me take this second rounder and pick 20, because I have to. Somebody There I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to take the field in September with no linebacker. And I just have Rowdy out there. So these, these personnel departments do not panic. They, they've been doing this many, many years and like I said, they don't fall in love with a guy, they fall in love with a group of guys. And they're pragmatic and they're smart about it. So whether they value Jordan Brooks at the same level as say, C.J. allen or Jacob Rodriguez, I am wildly speculating. But I do know that Jordan Brooks is a heck of a player. And the Miami Dolphins are saying, yeah, he's a heck of a player. We want to extend him. We want to keep him in Miami after his final season on his contract this year. So we're working on an extension. But we have taken calls because that's our job as the Dolphins, to take calls and to see if somebody's going to blow us away. Well, that means, of course, the Cowboys offer and the Dolphins asking price are way out of whack right now. Does that change after the draft and does it change after you use your 26 picks? Now you would have to trade a 27 pick and maybe the dolphins want a 26 pick for him right now, but maybe that would change after the draft. So yes, and that's a super long answer to a short question. There are many things out there we're not privy to, we never will be privy to unless they actually pull the trigger. And one of them is if they don't get a linebacker at 12 or 20, they have a plan. Now is it a good plan? You know, they had Kenneth Murray playing last year, so not all of their plans are good plans, but they do have a plan in place that if they don't get their guy, let's take a corner, let's take a edge rusher, Heck George, let's take a wide receiver. You know, some there, there are many options in the first round that aren't linebacker that we should accept might be the reality in three weeks time.

Bob Sturm (67:11)

Okay, we're out of time this week. But next week let's talk about, because all we've been talking about edge, linebacker, safety. What if at 12 and 20, maybe they take their defensive player at 12 they get down to 20 and I can't believe this running back is still on the board. I can't believe this wide receiver is still on the board. Would they dare do that? That's one thing. Let's talk about that next week. Because I think there's two names that are really interesting and heck, maybe even at 12.

George Dunham (67:44)

No doubt.

Bob Sturm (67:45)

Maybe even 12.

George Dunham (67:46)

No doubt about it.

Bob Sturm (67:47)

Yeah, I'll sign up for that. Could you imagine if the Cowboys took an offensive player at 12?

George Dunham (67:54)

I think a running back, even.

Bob Sturm (67:57)

I like Jeremiah. Everybody loves Jeremiah. Love.

George Dunham (68:00)

How do you not love Jeremiah Love, man.

Bob Sturm (68:03)

Okay, let's talk about that next week. I think that's a. Okay, that's a good one. And who knows what could happen between now and next week with these Dallas Cowboys. That's why we have football friends to talk about all this and to keep it going during the off season as we count down to the NFL draft. Thanks to Peter Welton for producing for Bob Sturm. I'm George Dunham. Two football friends.

George Dunham (68:35)

Next Roll with Vernon Davis. I'm your host, Vernon Davis. Okay, y', all, thank you. Thank you. That's enough. Today we have Dietrich Wise. Through my example, on the field, off the field, during game day, in practice, that was one way that I led, because then it led to success.

Bob Sturm (68:48)

Next Roll isn't about what's next. It's about why they do it.

George Dunham (68:51)

My man, Dom, you finally reach this pinnacle, but can you actually close the deal out? And then to be able to close it out, that is one of the biggest joys. That's powerful, man. Next Roll with Vernon Davis.

Bob Sturm (69:02)

Follow and listen on your favorite platform.