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- [00:00]
George Dunham
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Bob Sturm
It's the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition, the football friends, George Dunham and Bob Sturm as we work our way through the off season. We never have off season here on Football Friends. I mean, there's something happening with the Dallas Cowboys every day. Could be a signing of a running back, could be the introduction of a new defensive coordinator, could be what the heck do you have to pay a kicker? There's no telling where we're going to face here in the off season. It's going to be an awesome addition. We're going to talk about the value of the Cowboys running back. We're about to meet the new defensive coordinator and we've got a special guest that we're going to introduce you to today that'll start getting you ready for the draft. Bob, we're almost to March. It's time to start getting ready for an April NFL draft. That's hard to believe.
- [00:55]
George Dunham
It is full silly season and that means team building. That means decisions of high consequence. And so we are off and running. It is time.
- [01:07]
Bob Sturm
Well, let's meet the new defensive coordinator who's gotten a lot of buzz here in the last week after his introduction at the Star One, Christian Parker, who's made a quick rise through the ranks from college football into the NFL with the packers and the Broncos and the Philadelphia Eagles making a big impact in the passing game. Defense. He's been working in the secondary, but he's worked with some outstanding coaches and his. You always want to win your press conference, Bob, if you're a head coach or a coordinator. And I would say without question, Christian Parker won his press conference, his opening press conference. Can he fix the defense? I have no idea. But I do think the Cowboys did some different things here. They went out, they cast a wide net, they didn't just go out and go, yeah, we've heard of him and he used to coach as a head coach in this league. And I think Brian Schottenheimer has a lot to do with this search that has netted them a 34 year old defensive phenom who is widely respected around the league.
- [02:18]
George Dunham
Yeah, there's no doubt. I think he is very impressive in the way he articulates what he wants to do. That's never been an issue and I would suggest that in just about every aspect he said the right things. Now what does that mean? And of course the intrigue of okay, we often believe that a coordinator can get you to a point, but in reality this is a spot where you're going to need the Horses. I mean, this is. This is professional sports, and we know that you cannot win the Kentucky Derby on a donkey, as they've often said. So. So get us the horses. He says all the right things now. Let's give him a chance to be successful. I'd like to think that was part of the conversation is, hey, if you come take this job, we believe that, that, that you are, you know, the guy. So now we're going to help you out. Let's go. And I'm very excited about that. Now we just need to see it on, you know, we need to see how the pieces are all going to fit together.
- [03:26]
Bob Sturm
Absolutely. And just for context, last January and February, I was saying a lot of these things about Matt Eber Floos. Yeah, this guy's got a great reputation. He's a good defensive coach. And, yeah, he can do this. He's. He's fine.
- [03:44]
George Dunham
Right. So, yeah, I mean, that, that's, that's the thing is, is Mike Zimmer sounded good at the time. I'm sure Mike Nolan sounded good at the time. So. So these introductory press conferences, I definitely think there are clues in there. Like, for instance, and I'm sure you want to get to this, but the 3, 4, 4, 3 conversation, and just the way he sees the game, there's. There's little clues out there, but you always have to. You always have to kind of take it with the same grain of salt of. I mean, every guy says, I. We want to create big plays. We want to get turnovers. We want to suppress explosives. You know, we're. We want to tackle well, you know, all these things that every, Every coordinator wants to do the same things, which is essentially distilled down. And by the way, I think you could probably do this press conference where you're like, look, touchdowns are really bad. We do not want to give up touchdowns. As part of this defense.
- [04:45]
Bob Sturm
I go you one better, Bob. My defense, we're going to stop the run and we're going to pressure the quarterback.
- [04:53]
George Dunham
That's right. We want to affect the quarterback. We want to own the line of scrimmage. We. Yeah, I mean, yeah.
- [04:59]
Bob Sturm
And we want to be physical.
- [05:00]
George Dunham
Yeah, exactly. And we want to have a mean disposition, and we want to intimidate and we want the quarterback feeling us and just all these things. So. So these press conferences go really, really well. And then we always have to flip it around to. It's a bit of a pep rally on one hand. And then on the other hand, you're like, okay, if I'm Christian Parker, how many beans do I want to spill on the very first press conference when there's no competitive advantage to saying anything? So you combine those two things, of course, what else are they going to say and what should they really reveal? And it kind of comes down to press conferences are essentially a promotional item for a sports team to kind of renew hope that maybe this. This year will be different. Right?
- [05:54]
Bob Sturm
Sure.
- [05:55]
George Dunham
And so he did very well, I would like to think. There's never a moment where you're just staring into the. The abyss with no answer. Ready, and you're just terrified and all these things. So. So he did that. But, you know, now you're. We're. We're looking through the clues and we're trying to figure out how does this group of guys fit these ideas?
- [06:21]
Bob Sturm
Absolutely. It is a lot on how you say it. And the way he said it really impressed me. It impressed Shotty, too. This is the first thing we'll listen to from the press conference when Brian Schottenheimer was talking about the interview process, and he says that Christian Parker was the last one they talked to, and he couldn't wait to just dig a little deeper and talk more ball with him.
- [06:48]
Brian Schottenheimer
He was the last Zoom that we did. And as he started talking, it wasn't just him talking about his watches and his shoe game. He got a serious shoe game. Yeah, you got a shoe room. You guys can write about that. He's got a shoe room. But, man, every time we talk, we just would get. Get off a call or get off the Zoom and get off the interview, just be like, damn, I want. I want more of that. And I think his ability to develop players is very obvious. You look at what he did in Denver, involved with certain. And you look at what they did in Philadelphia, obviously with Cooper, DeJean and Mitchell and guys like that.
- [07:24]
George Dunham
He.
- [07:25]
Brian Schottenheimer
He's done it. And, you know, ton of respect for Vic Fangio. He's cut his, you know, teeth under Vic, but he's not Vic. He's got his own convictions and beliefs, and that's what I love about the guy.
- [07:36]
Bob Sturm
Last year, I was thinking, okay, Brian Schottenheimer seems to be a solid guy. Then I heard his first press conference, saw that, I don't know, a dozen players were there. I'll say some of the same things by what we're about to hear from Christian Parker, the way he communicates, the way prioritizes getting to know guys as people. Then we'll talk football. But it sounds like he's a brilliant dude. And you can see Schottenheimer's face just light up when he talks about him. And again, I don't think he's coaching here if Brian Schottenheimer is not here. You know what I'm saying? If they would have.
- [08:12]
George Dunham
I agree.
- [08:12]
Bob Sturm
If Mike McCarthy was still here, I don't think this is a guy they would hire.
- [08:18]
George Dunham
Yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, you know, as you look at the way, you know, this thing is coming together, it's a. It's a young, energetic coaching staff. If you just look at the defensive ages, you have Christian Parker, 34. Marcus Dixon is 41. Chidera Uzo de Rebay, 33. The outside linebackers. Coach Scott Simons is 40. The inside linebackers, the pass game is Derek Ansley, he's 44. The DBs are Ryan Smith, he's 35. The. The assistant linebacker is J. A.J. clark, 26. And the assistant DBs is Robert Muschamp, he's 29. So average age of the entire defensive staff is what, 36, 35 years old. So, yeah, I mean, it's in many ways an exact duplicate of the offensive staff you've put together. So, you know, you. You basically say, let's modernize everything. Let's, let's. Let's be the guys who are trying to fight, figure out what's next in this league. And that probably is another clue. Now, we in no way want to be ageist, because I don't believe in that. I think that's one of the sorry things about the media is that apparently you forget football when you turn 60 or 65 or 70. I mean, Vic Fangio teaches Christian Parker everything he knows. And Vic Fangio is like 70 years old. So is the information predicated on being born after 1990? Of course not. But maybe the energy level, maybe the enthusiasm, maybe the ability to relate to the players on a better level.
- [10:04]
Bob Sturm
Teaching.
- [10:05]
George Dunham
These are. Yeah, these are. These are all theories, right? So let's, let's. Let's chase this theory and see where it takes us.
- [10:11]
Bob Sturm
Well, his influences are many. You mentioned Vic Fangio, who he coached under Philadelphia, Vance, Joseph, Denver. I told you a coach that I talked to who knew him back when he was a defensive analyst at Texas A and M in 2018. That means he was together with Mike Elko. So he's had a lot of influences. You're right about the 3, 4. But as Parker says here, there are a lot of elements to the 3, 4 that he will play.
- [10:40]
Christian Parker
A lot of them have a Lot of similarities, but differences I think foundationally, you know, Vic Vance, Mike Petton, coach Elko Gerrell Evero, all came out of a 3, 4 structure. I think that once you get past that from the fronts you build and the coverages you do and the personality on third down, red zone, you definitely have a mentality as a play caller, but I think that it's still going to be designed around the players that you have. So there's different nuances that I've taken from each one of them and even people outside of that, as I've had extensive studies and you build relationships outside of the circle you've been in that you know, you want to incorporate with what you want to do.
- [11:15]
George Dunham
So I think his actual wording at a different point of the press conference was. Was it three, four personnel with four, three spacing?
- [11:21]
Bob Sturm
Okay, yeah, I did hear that.
- [11:23]
George Dunham
Was it. Okay, so. So just to drill down on that. And again, it's, it's. It's not really reinventing the wheel, the NFL right now. Defense, top down. So, so what that means usually is you are making sure that you begin by suppressing big explosive passing plays. Now, I can't imagine there's any offense design since the advent of the forward pass that is cool with giving up bombs. But, but, but this league.
- [11:57]
Bob Sturm
Well, boss Cowboys gave up A league leading 46 pass plays of more than 25 yards last year.
- [12:05]
George Dunham
That's insane. I mean, that's just insane on every level. But yeah, so, so, so you start with shell coverages. You start with two guys high and then sometimes going into quarters or going into cover six, which, which basically means keep the danger in front of you. And then the, the thing you have to pair that with, of course, is the ability to stop the running with four. And that's what Seattle's done, that's what Philadelphia's done, That's what San Francisco's done. Now, we get there in different ways and we get there with different, you know, alignments and even schemes. But these are the two major principles of modern defense is one, we must make sure we are fortified deep. And we will allow you to try to put together a 12:15 play drive where you're nickel and diming us to death. We want you to try to do that. And then we're going to get some, to use the Jerry parlance, we're going to get some war daddies who can hold their own up front, especially against the run. And then you supplement that with some edge players. But overall, what we're looking for is Just to make sure that we play a sound group defense and not like relying on individuals. Even if you have a Patrick Certain or. Or those boys, Quinon Mitchell in Philadelphia, for instance, we want them to be able to be in the hip pocket of the guy they're covering, but not necessarily impress man on an island. We want safeties over the top so we can play more aggressive underneath as coverage guys. So I don't want to get too lost in the sauce of what this all means. And frankly, anybody not trying to play a sound defensive scheme is extremely frustrating. And I don't think Matt Eberfloos is a moron, and I don't think Mike Zimmer's a moron. So the moral to the story is the principles are both sound fundamentally, but also George sort of obvious. And now you have to supplement it with guys who can play. And that's the secret sauce. That isn't really a secret. That's the missing ingredients that they have to deal with is they. They do believe with, with. With Quinn and Williams and with Kenny Clark and with Oso Digizua and even Solomon Thomas and Perry on Winfrey, if you want to talk about. They feel like they got five dudes who can sort of keep the linebackers clean and sort of handle the business up front now and in a fundamental way where everybody else can deploy against the past threats. And. And then you start to work from there. And then, of course, third down is third down. We gotta go get the passer now. You go.
- [14:58]
Bob Sturm
Go get some linebackers. Edge players. This team needs some help in the secondary, as we've talked about. We'll talk about that more a little bit later in this week's edition. I kind of like the defense. Call me crazy. Just hold your opponent to a lot less than 28 points a game if you can do that. Great idea. I think you're going to be a lot better than you were last year. I also like it when a coach thinks outside the box, talks outside the box. He makes a reference here that I've heard probably three dozen coaches reference this. This literature from the fifth century, I think. And I guess technically it is an ancient Chinese secret, the art of war. But if you go back to Christian Parker, his education, he was a Richmond Spider and he was a political science major, and he talks about how he has carried that with him.
- [15:56]
Christian Parker
Obviously, in the political science realm, a lot of the stuff is centered around the debate element or discussion. So when you have those conversations about different leaders in the past, whether it's on the philosophy side or world leaders in different countries and figuring out different vantage points on why they did what they did. I think it definitely leads into to the coaching world, whether it's, you know, you're Marcus Aurelius and Seneca and the whole philosophical realm there with the principle of stoicism and things like that, or just, you know, the art of war and that kind of, you know, military strategy, all those type of things. You see those worlds blended a lot when you come to those different backgrounds. And so the books that I might be was supposed to read that I didn't, you kind of end up circling back to when you get into this Seneca.
- [16:41]
Bob Sturm
The only Seneca I know is Seneca Wallace. What the heck's he talking about, Bob? He sounds like he's really well read and he knows what he's talking about.
- [16:48]
George Dunham
Yeah, he said, I think you, me and Shadi all immediately said Seneca Wallace. What does he have to do with any of this? But apparently the Roman philosopher Seneca, Seneca the younger to get action. Apparently Seneca the older was kind of a spare.
- [17:04]
Bob Sturm
Was he a 34 or 43 guy?
- [17:08]
George Dunham
I don't know. I think he wanted to mix coverages though, and kind of a match quarters type thing. But yeah, on one hand he's that guy, and on the other hand, we HEAR he's got 500 pairs of sneakers, which is an interesting guy. I like interesting 498 more than I have. So, no, I don't know.
- [17:27]
Bob Sturm
He sounds like a great guy to talk to. I can't wait to talk to him at training camp. I bet he's. He's just one of those guys you just kind of wind him up and
- [17:35]
George Dunham
listen to him go, well, Philadelphia swears by him and that, you know, and that's long before the Cowboys were interested. There was a lot of last year during super bowl week when the Eagles were in it. So Super Bowl 59 and wanted. Of course, he was one of those, you need to know about this guy who helps bring this Eagles defense together. He's the next big thing. And for the Cowboys, especially the year after, they didn't talk to Ben Johnson and Liam Cohen and some of these next big thing in NFL offense. And they hired somebody in the break room, which we like, Brian Schottenheimer. But hiring guys inside the facility always makes me nervous, George.
- [18:19]
Bob Sturm
I know.
- [18:20]
George Dunham
And so this year, I don't know, they seem to have said, let's go get the next big thing in NFL defense. And maybe it works great. I hope it does. Now, of course, if it does work great maybe he's somebody's head coach by 2027 or 2028. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But right now, people do think Christian Parker is the next big thing.
- [18:44]
Bob Sturm
Well, there you go. There's your introduction to Christian Parker and we'll see. He's got a lot of fires to stamp out here in Dallas and yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how he puts the personnel together and just how big a jump this team can make, what could what they can acquire this off season. And let's go there next. There's a free agent defensive player that Bob is really high on. We'll talk about the the possibility of him coming to Dallas and let's talk about the value of the running back. The Cowboys just got a new contract to Coming up next, the George W.
- [19:28]
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- [20:22]
Bob Sturm
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- [22:25]
George Dunham
Totally agree. It seems like a fair number. He's, he's at about 8 million a year with the first two years guaranteed. And I know many of us could manage on 8 million a year. It's very good money. But it's also about 16th in the league at annual average value for a running back. Which do you feel like Javante Williams is at least league average as a running back and I would say absolutely. And he proved to us last year. And I feel like I said this a number of times on football friends, this guy's a dog. And I want dogs on this team. I want guys who compete not because there's something in it for them, but it's because that's what they do. That's how they see the game of football is if I put a little bit of desire into this thing and if I fight my tail off, it's going to make my team better. And I just love guys who are high effort, guys who look like it means a lot to them. And you know, obviously he's got a lot of ability, so it's not all try hard stuff. But yeah, try hard means something to me, especially in a Cowboys culture where you want to make sure everybody is fully committed to what matters and so they got one with him. Is he enough at running back? Well, I think he tired out last year. I think after Thanksgiving he was a little less. Now we don't know was he hurt or was he just worn down because not only was he carrying the rock, but he's also trying to defend Dak and they're, you know, they're sending guys at him and beating him up Every week and that's not an easy part of the job. So as the Cowboys continue to build, we know almost everything should go to the defense. But on the offensive side, do I need a veteran running back like they thought Miles Sanders might be last year, or do I just hope that it's Phil Moffa or Jaden Blue or even. I think Malik Davis is back for one more year. Is. Can one of those guys, but honestly, two of them are tiny and the third one is, is Phil Moffa who you took in the seventh round. And I think he's like 238. So he actually might be ideal. Heck, he might be more of a, of a fullback type. But you know, when you, when you look at it all, the only hesitation I have on Javante is, is, is just that wear down factor and that's, that's, you know, we can work with that. We can, we can find some, you know, we can find a second running back sometimes on the street. But, but I think with Mafa, with Hunter Lipke doing more, it's just. You just don't want guys like Lipke doing your blitz pickup because that limits what the defense is worried about as far as getting the ball. That's what makes Javante so valuable, is you better respect him as a threat and then he can also pick up the blitz. That's what you're looking for. Which again goes back to. That was probably what they had in mind with Miles Sanders.
- [25:22]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think they can find a little something and I would like a little get up and go with my second back. That's why I think Jaden Blue could be, you know, something really valuable for this team. He had a hard time getting on the field and when he finally did get the rock against the Giants, that was such a ridiculous game.
- [25:45]
George Dunham
Right.
- [25:46]
Bob Sturm
But he showed some flashes.
- [25:48]
George Dunham
He did.
- [25:48]
Bob Sturm
Would love to see a lot more of him. And I did Malik Davis, not a leaf show that he can play in this league and he plays two. So I think, I think between those three, I think you're good there.
- [25:58]
George Dunham
Yeah, you probably are. Malik though is, you know, again, He's. He's barely £200 and we know Jaden Blue is under £200. And so the only, my only issue Javante is like 220 and Miles Sanders I think is probably say 210, maybe 212, something along those lines. So. So again, if you're picking up an NFL linebacker and I get down to £200 or 195, it's a mismatch. And so, you know, they can sort of try to hold up. But if you do that five, six times a game, they're going to be, you know, the, the coyote and roadrunner bit where you're, you're using a spatula to get them off the, off the highway at a certain point. So, so maybe they can grow into that. But, but that's, that's the thing about getting, I don't want to say gimmick running backs. That's a bad term. Let's say gadget running backs. If you get, if you're taking gadget speed guy running backs, Jaden Blue. And of course they also have Kevante Turpin, who's, who's kind of a gadget wide receiver. He like weighs 155. So I mean, you said, I would
- [27:10]
Bob Sturm
rather jet with Jaden Blue than jet little Covante around there.
- [27:14]
George Dunham
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you just, you just, the more play action you use, the more deception you use. Well, then the more blitzers you're going to be dealing with and the safeties and linebackers, they, they will eat your tiny guys for lunch. Which is, which is why, you know, I'll continue to say maybe Miles Sanders, I think he signed a 2. I think Miles Sanders is still under contract.
- [27:39]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [27:39]
George Dunham
And you know, like we said, Phil Moffa is just getting started, we hope.
- [27:44]
Bob Sturm
Okay. So you're going to hear a lot of names thrown out between now and when free agency starts here in a couple of weeks. And Bob, you've outlined before, there aren't just a ton of really sexy names and free agency, unrestricted free agency. But there is one name and there is a tie in with Christian Parker since he was most recently in Phil. In Philly. You sent me some tape this week on a really interesting linebacker that. And it's not just you. There's a lot of connect the dots here and the Kobe Dean coming to Dallas from Philly. What do you think?
- [28:24]
George Dunham
Yeah, well, I would love it. He, he obviously is not a flawless player. He's been hurt a fair amount and that instantly turns people off because we've had injury prone linebackers over the years by the bushel, including, you know, demarvi and Overshone right now, who we love but has yet to play a full season. And so I always say, you know, there's a, if he was a perfect player, then his team doesn't let him out of the building. So you're only a free agent if something has not gone quite perfect usually. And so when you, when you look at all the UFAs this season, all over the league, all of them have a slight red tag on them. So I just want to start there. There. There's no perfect free agent because you don't let those guys off your roster. So once we establish that, I say Nicole Dean is 25 years old. Since he's been at Georgia, he's always been thought of as a very high iq, very smart, very able to have the green dot and make sure everybody's in the right spot, get a timeout if I need to, but make adjustments on the fly. So he's your kind of your, your field general. So I want that. I did not have that last year. I also like the way he reads out a play and plays his position well and plays patiently and sometimes it doesn't show up in the stats because some of those plays I sent you, he's just turning the runner back to his help. He's, he's kind of playing the force, you know, or the, the contain, if you will. Setting an edge sometimes, but also doing it in the interior where you're sending him back to your defensive tackle who's going to make the play. And that's just fundamentally sound defense. So I don't think Nicobi Dean is necessarily the best linebacker in the league, but he's available at a price that is appealing. And then of course, he is literally Christian Parker's extension onto the field. He has been in Christian Parker's defense for his almost his whole career and that is valuable to me. There are two free agents that will be paired with Christian Parker this spring. Nicobi Dean, the consensus says he's the second best linebacker on the market. And Reed Blankenship, which is rated about the 8th consensus high safety. I would not rule out either of them, frankly, because I do think they both are at a price point where you could actually say that's, that's worth doing. And they're also at positions, George, where I don't mind drafting a safety if it's a great one and I don't mind drafting a linebacker. So like Sonny Stiles and Caleb Downs are both extremely interesting to me. But I want to be careful about using those two first rounders on non premium positions because those can be filled in free agency at the right price. So just to give you the example, there are four defensive positions where the Cowboys need help. Edge, linebacker, corner and safety. Well, edge is. Aside from quarterback. It's the most expensive position in the NFL. You will pay so much for an edge. Corner is basically that. But the Two cheaper positions are linebacker and safety. So if I have two first round picks and two bullets in free agency, then I think I'm going to put my first round picks on. Let's say number 12 goes to the best corner, which is a very good one, and 20 goes to the best edge, which will also be a pretty good one. And so I can get two guys there. And then in free agency, maybe at 10 million a year or 12 million a year, I can get Nicobi Dean. And then even less than that, I could maybe get a guy like Reed Blankenship and maybe I can find my four starters from that exact method. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I do think Nicole Dean would pair well with demarvi and Overshone. And another thing people will say about Nicobi George, and you might have saw this on the film, he's a little small. However, in this scheme, I believe the Cowboys are planning on keeping their linebackers clean. And so you don't need a 245 pound linebacker necessarily. With. With again, big Quinn and big Kenny up front, you should be able to have linebackers that are free to run to the ball. And that's why I think Nicole would fit well here, just like he did in Philadelphia.
- [32:57]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, he's a dog, man. I don't care what his size is as far as height and weight. He fights through blocks, he runs to the ball, he takes things out. And if you. All of the plays we watched of the all 22 this year, the Cowboys defense, I saw nothing that looked like that. I saw, yeah, I didn't see one linebacker come even close to playing like that.
- [33:21]
George Dunham
That's. That's the, you know, again, we'll try not to kick Kenneth Murray every episode, but. But if Nicobi Dean was out there last year, the defense would have looked way different.
- [33:30]
Bob Sturm
Yes, absolutely. All right, good stuff. Love all that. And I love where we're going next. We're going to start looking at some potential names for the Cowboys to draft this April that can help this defense and help Christian Parker. And we have a very special guest to do that.
- [33:51]
Dominic Robinson
You saw the game winning play once, but have to replay it three times on the way back to the hotel because some moments don't end at the buzzer. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save@bestwestern.com.
- [34:12]
George Dunham
Mic drop.
- [34:12]
Dominic Robinson
You ready?
- [34:13]
Bob Sturm
Let's do it.
- [34:14]
George Dunham
Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ritten, Midland. It's unfiltered. You know, when you go to the Sound of the gun, bam, you're gone.
- [34:20]
Bob Sturm
It's weird. I mean, I've had so many near
- [34:22]
George Dunham
death experiences, it's raw.
- [34:24]
Bob Sturm
I love this country.
- [34:25]
Dominic Robinson
I offered my life to serve this
- [34:27]
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nation and protect its people.
- [34:28]
Bob Sturm
The question, you know, what's the meaning of life? And to me it just boils down to one single word, which is purpose,
- [34:34]
George Dunham
mic drop, follow and listen on your favorite platform.
- [34:40]
Bob Sturm
We roll on through the off season on football friends, and before you know it, the NFL draft is going to be here. We're through the NFL comb. And Bob, I lean on you for draft knowledge and I know you lean on a lot of people. Introduce the world to our special guest right now who's going to set us straight on maybe some potential names for the Cowboys who have two first round picks this year.
- [35:05]
George Dunham
Yes. Well, for the last couple years, Dominic Robinson and I have been going through draft guys and we try to quality control each other. We try to check it out. He was in the game for quite a while. You may remember his work at Florida State many moons ago. If you're old like us and old like him. But, but now he loves watching ball and certainly breaking down the tape. And if I don't get to somebody like last year, he pulled me aside and said, bob, you need to look at Cam. Scatter. Boo. And I'm like, man, I don't know. Okay, I'll try to fit one more in. And boy, am I happy. I did because that ended up being a guy we were pounding the table on in round three. And of course the Giants got him and the rest is history. But I wasn't going to fit him in my 60 profiles until Dominic told me to, so, so he does great work. We, we try to check each other's notes. Dominic, how we doing?
- [36:03]
Dominic Robinson
Doing great, man. George, I, I gotta thank you for, for sharing, sharing Bob with me. Thanks for having me on. This is, you know, you're so lucky. You get to have him once a week and I get them once a year. 1. During, during a small period of time during the year, I get to get to have my football, my football buddy, my draft buddy. And so I'm excited. You know, once the Super Bowl's over, I get pretty pumped.
- [36:31]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [36:32]
Dominic Robinson
Because I get to spend time with Bob and you're, you're lucky enough. You get, you get it every, you get it.
- [36:37]
Bob Sturm
I know Bob is the best, but you're the best. I've heard your work and you're awesome. I'm so glad. And we've got your resources to check in with a few times here before we get to the NFL draft.
- [36:48]
George Dunham
So let's roundtable this thing a little bit and, and, and, and Dominic, we'll start with you. But in terms of, obviously from a Cowboys perspective on here, they've got, they've got some good ammunition this year. Not the greatest because they traded away round two for Quinn and round three for George Pickens. Those are obviously fantastic football players, so we're not complaining. But it does make the draft situation a little trickier. 12 and 20 though, those are some very, very nice pieces of gold that we probably have to turn into to starters if we can on this defense. But, but just in general, what, where, where's your head at with regards to the Cowboys? Trying to, trying to team build with what they have to work with and what the draft offers this year.
- [37:42]
Dominic Robinson
So first of all, I think this will be interesting. It's always interesting to see the direction the Cowboys go just because they always go somewhere. I listened to our episode on the Cowboys draft last year, Bob, and we talked for probably an hour about wide receivers at pick 12 and not only did they not go wide receiver, but they went offensive guard.
- [38:06]
Bob Sturm
How about a guard?
- [38:09]
Dominic Robinson
Which is kind of nothing like a wide receiver. So. Yeah, so it's always fun to, to kind of. We, you know, we spend a bunch of time trying to guess what they're going to do this year. We're thinking, we're thinking defensive player, you know, or, or a bevy of defensive players maybe. And so I will say that if that is the case, this is, this would be the year. I think the talent in this year's draft is very slanted towards defensive players. Yes, there's more defense than offense. Easy to say. Obviously normally when there's no quarterback names and you know, quarterbacks usually drive most of the conversation around surrounding draft talk. So when there aren't a bunch of them, you know, then you, you, it's not as sexy, it's not as fun. And so this is one of those years where I think if they were going to do what we want them to do or what we think they're going to do, this would be the year to do that which would go defense.
- [39:16]
Bob Sturm
You know, Dominic, we were talking last week about that pick at 20, the second first round pick the Cowboys have. Bob brought up the really good point. If you're trying to rebuild this defense and also under, if, if we understand we're operating under a two to three year window here for Dak and CD and everybody. You want someone who you want two starters out of this first round who are ready to go. Is that. Is there a decent chance certainly at 12 you can get that. How good do you think that chances at 20? And if it's just kind of, yeah, I think he could step right in. Are you more inclined to trade down and get value? I know it depends on what's still on the board, but that whole thing, I think, is a really philosophical, interesting question for this team.
- [40:12]
George Dunham
I almost like to ask it in a. In a hypothetical way, would you rather have two in the top 20 or would you rather have three and, say, the top 50? Like. Like, as a general rule. And there's a way to look at it, George, where they have almost 2200 points this year in draft currency, but 1200 would be that 12th pick. 850 would be that 20th pick. And then all of their other picks combined only amount to roughly 130 points in draft currency. So if you cut it into a pie, that 12th pick is 55% of your draft, and the 20th pick is 40% of your draft. That's 95% of your draft in those two picks, even though you have five more picks in the draft. So if you look at it that way, should we cut those pie pieces into smaller pieces, Dominic? Or do you. Do you say, well, no, I want two dogs in the top 20? And maybe if. If. If a couple quarterbacks and a couple run, you know, Jeremiah Love, maybe Kenyon Siddiq, maybe a couple offensive tackles. Can I actually get two of the top, say, 12 defensive players on my defense for next September, and I just stay there and draft? That's. That's kind of the. The bigger discussion, I guess.
- [41:35]
Dominic Robinson
Yeah. I've been playing around with the simulator, and I cannot stop trading one of those picks, 12 or 20, that. That makes sense to me now. The reason why that makes sense to me is I sort of have this. It's not an actual, you know, Boulder or, you know, you know, stop gap at 12, but somewhere around 12 for me, every year is where I feel like the game changers stop. Yeah, right. Where Micah went, like, the pick after Micah, for me is like, after that, I'm still getting a. I'm not saying there aren't great players. Obviously there are, but usually right about 12 is where it's like, okay, this guy's sort of a franchise, a foundational changer, you know, after that. So for me, between, like, 13 and 24 is when you really want to start to look at trying to get multiple players for that for those spots in my head. And then I feel like at the end of, like at the high 20s, you usually get great value also. So for me, between like 13 to 24, they're going to cost too much for the actual production that you're going to get out of them. Typically now that's not, again, it's not an ironclad rule and obviously the years change. But for me, if you get to 12 and there isn't a game changer, go get yourself another pick in that top 80, top 100. And you're sitting in and you're really, really looking at that, doing some, some damage there. Or even at 20, if you can trade back and go get two players in the higher 20s, lower 30s, you're really looking at, like, doing some, doing some damage by going and getting really comparable players. It's going to be the same player you're going to get at 20. It's going to be the same player you're going to get at 32 or 38, but you're going to be able to get two of them. That's the, that's the way that I look at it is like from about 20 to 40, you know, for 20 to 50, those, the, those players are essentially the same value, you know, but they're, but they're not in draft capital I can go give you because you, your, your team might need a player at 20 that you can't get at whatever spot you're at. So like the Raiders, for instance, they have 1 and 38, I think it is. So they would want to move up to get into the 20s for sure, because they just don't have one. You know, they don't have us, they don't have a pick after that first pick, you know, so a team like that would be, you know, a great team to look at.
- [44:39]
George Dunham
Yeah. And, and then what I tried to do last time with George was actually I sit at 20, but I trade back from 12. And if I trade back from, if I trade back from 12, then I can get like 19 and 50 or 22 and 53 from another team. And now I've got 20, 22 and 53. And to me, that gets me really excited. Although I probably miss a chance at getting one of those top three corners. So, so it's give and take. And you probably don't want to just draft for need guys. But, but, but you do have to think about, you know, 55% is in that 12th pick and another 40% is in that 20th pick, and then everything else we have in this draft, even my fourth round pick. These are table scraps. These. They might turn into something. But odds are for through 100 years of the draft, odds are that your pick at 112 is going to be a guy that covers kicks for a couple years and then disappears. You know, there are exceptions every year, but you have to play the large samples if you're going to try to figure out. Well, I'll put it another way. Almost every study ever says the key to being a smart drafting team is to just have more picks. It's a quantity thing, not a quality thing. Almost every time, yeah, for sure.
- [46:11]
Dominic Robinson
It's that pick at 12, man. If you can get back from that. The way that I look at it is if there's not a game changer, if Arvel Reese isn't there, which I don't think he will be, you know, somebody like that, you know, an edge, one of those Ohio State edges that you like, like somebody that is just, you know, you know, you, you feel like most likely is going to be a, a Pro Bowler in year one if that guy's not there, man, if you can trade back, you're gonna get a really, really good, you know, a day one starter and you're gonna get end up getting two of them for that spot. And, and you're gonna have a lot of people that are go a lot of teams that are gonna want that spot because of the, the players that will be sort of a need for
- [46:59]
Bob Sturm
their teams if they do stay at 12. You guys want to throw out just a couple of names because it seems more likely to me that names like Caleb Downs at safety, David Bailey at edge are gone by the time 12 runs around. And it looks like from all the mocks I've looked at that you could get the top corner perhaps at. At number 12. Correct. Is it. Do you think you have a better chance of getting the corner you need with a coach now who is very keen on defensive backs? I would think. And I would wonder what Christian Parker's influence is going to be there. But is that more likely someone like McCoy out of Tennessee or something like that at 12?
- [47:46]
Dominic Robinson
So I personally don't. It's too rich for my blood. I don't like a corner at 12. I don't see a player of that value, of that, you know, ability. Now I haven't dove into the corners yet for, for Bob and I's episode on, on secondary, but I, I sort of live in that space, you know, year round. But as of right now, there's no corner that I like at 12. Interesting that I would, I would take. Yeah. To me if, if the, if there's a corner there, then I'm definitely trading that spot. You know, if, if that's, if that's the best player left. When I, when, when that, when that spot gets to me.
- [48:31]
George Dunham
Yeah, I, I, I think, I think the, there are two guys I would have a hard time walking away from. And I'm just going to assume first of all that, that the top two edges that I've seen, maybe three, well, probably three edges that are all top, top guys who I don't anticipate getting out of the top 10 would be David Bailey from Texas Tech, who I love, absolutely love him. He's a fantastic player. Ruben Bane from Miami, who's, who's different but also fantastic. And anybody who watched college football last year doesn't need to be introduced to either of those guys. And then Arvell Reese, who is one of three Ohio State, maybe four Ohio State first rounders off their defense. And each one of them, you just see how Ohio State's good every year is that they just, you know, they're not, they don't mess with the portal hardly at all. I know they won the national title with a quarterback out of the portal last year, but, but just in general, they just go recruit future NFL superstars, often the sons of other Buckeyes, and they just keep that conveyor belt going. Arvell Reese is a very, very special player and I think he'll just, I don't want to use Micah Parsons name very often when we look at edges, but there is, there is something about Arvel Reese that does make you see Micah. Now when you get past that group, there are two guys that I would have a hard time walking away from a 12 if somehow they fell. And they both play positions that don't often get pushed up the draft board. The guys who get pushed up the draft board every year are the edge rushers, the quarterbacks and the wide receivers. Every year it happens. And these guys, Sonny Stiles from Ohio State is, you know, I was trying to sell you on Nakobe Dean. If, if I knew I could get sonny Styles at 12, I would not be trying to sell you on Nakobe Dean. Sonny Styles to me at 240, at 6 foot 4, the way he runs the middle of the field for Ohio State, if, if I could turn in the card right now at 12 and he's there, I think, I think he's a transformational, you know, Run and hit linebacker. I'm, I'm not quite ready to say he's Fred Warner, but that's what I'm talking about. That's, that's, that's the type of guy you build a defense around at that position. And I'd love to hear Dominic's thoughts on him. And then the other one is even more of a pipe dream, and that's his teammate, Caleb Downs. The, the safety. The thing about that, though, and I just, I, maybe this is me trying to will it to happen, but we have seen some unbelievable safeties get to 12. If you want to talk about Derwin James, I think 17. And I thought Derwin James was the best player I'd ever seen. Like, I, I don't know what you thought of him, Dominic, but I remember, I remember thinking Derwin James is the first freaking dude of all dudes. The, the other one is Hamilton from Notre Dame who went to Baltimore. What did he have? Did he, did he go 12 or 14 or something like that?
- [51:51]
Dominic Robinson
I want to say 14. Yeah.
- [51:53]
George Dunham
Okay. So, I mean, safety slide. Will Caleb down slide? Probably not, but most of the time safeties don't go top five. And so most of the teams in the top 10 need offensive line help every year. And so I haven't really looked at the offensive line at all. So anyway, those are the two names, George, where I would be saying, okay, I ain't trading back from 12 at all on, on Caleb Downs or Sonny Styles, because if I could start my draft with either one of them, I will say my draft is going to be great whatever I do the rest of the weekend.
- [52:26]
Bob Sturm
Boy, that's, that's interesting about safety. And you're right, they do seem to slide. Dominic, do you think that's changing now with a re. Emphasis on the running game in the NFL? To me, safety is corners, obviously more valuable, but has the value of a, of a really good safety become more important in today's NFL?
- [52:50]
Dominic Robinson
Yeah. Here's what's going to be really exciting about the Caleb Downs deal is he may be the first nickel to get drafted as a, you know, sort of franchise top 10 pick. Like, we've, we, we've. We've. We've been saying for a couple years like nickel is base, but we haven't quite shown that in draft value where your nickel is going to get paid like your top, you know, top end shutdown corner. We haven't seen that because nickel traditionally is a safety or it's a, it's a, it's your third best Corner. Well, that's not, that can't be the case anymore because the Kyle Hamilton's of the world and the Derwin James of the world are now your best players on your team, period. So. But we have not seen that yet in the draft because the college game is, you know, hasn't quite produced a player like Caleb Downs, you know, in a while. Kyle Hamilton was a traditional middle of the field safety that we thought had the ability. Derwin James was a quarter safety that we thought had nickel hybrid play all over the, the place. Buddha Baker, Baker for, for, for uw. These guys didn't get drafted as quote unquote Nichols, but now they're, they're the best in the game playing nickel, which is really a linebacker. And so I will be so excited. Now I do want Caleb to slide to the Cowboys at 12. And you're right, Bob, traditionally that position slides. But is that position no longer what we've known it to be? And will the NFL with, the NFL show us that with the way that they draft him, are they going to draft him like he's a traditional safety, which he is not. This guy is an absolute freak. He's, he's very. Derwin James as like you asked was like if I was excited when Derwin James came out. Hell yeah, I was because he, he was, he was everything. He wasn't a corner. I didn't know what he was. And that's, that's right. I love those guys. I love hybrid players. They're, they're, you know, a guy that's just a player, just a ball player is. That's my favorite kind. So, and that's what, that's what Caleb Downs is. And so I would love for him to go in the top 10 because I think that would show like the evolution of the game, which is again, we've been saying Nicholas, Nicholas base for a while, but we do not draft that way. You still go draft your shutdown corner separate from your, your middle of the field safety.
- [55:47]
George Dunham
And the Cowboys haven't invested in safety since Roy Williams from Oklahoma. And so, you know, and honestly it shows on their defenses that, that they have very ordinary safety play. And God bless Malik Hooker and, and, and, and Donovan Wilson and, and, and many of these guys they've had over the years, your Gerald Sensiboz and your Barry Churches and just go down the line, but it's, it feels like it's one of the last things on their shopping list. And so if you get a dynamic Buddha Baker type, you know, who can just do so much and just attack all over the field and also be so smart about the way he plays the position. And. And there's just. You just. You dream of guys like that. Now here's the thing, George. I think both of those names, it is a greater than zero possibility at 12, because I do try not to use the consensus board, but I do think the consensus board gives us an idea of what most people are thinking. And there's a lot of information out there and on the consensus board right now. Now, the combine is this week, so this could change very, very quickly once the combine, you know, guys start working out. And we know those Ohio State guys usually kill their workouts, and so they will shoot up perhaps. But downs hits at 8. Then Jeremiah Love, then Jordan Tyson, the wide receiver, Arizona State, then MANSOOR Delaine from LSU via Virginia Tech at corner, and then at number 12, Ohio State, Sonny Stiles. So, Dominic, have you. You got much on Sonny Styles yet?
- [57:29]
Dominic Robinson
Yeah. So I was gonna say for the. Just what I'm looking at in terms of the tape, what the tape tells me and what sort of. Is out there, guys that I would no doubt take that have the potential to actually slide were Sunny Styles, Arvell Reese, and, you know, I guess it's the Ohio State trio and, And Caleb Downs. I also think that what scares me with the Cowboys is Makai Lemon could potentially slide there and Jordan Tyson could potentially slide there. And just knowing Jerry and knowing the Cowboys, I, I don't see him passing up Jordan Tyson if he's there at 12. Now, again, I don't know what's going to happen with, with George Pickens. Have they, have. Have they shown what they're going to do their hand there or.
- [58:31]
George Dunham
Oh, he's. He's definitely tagged.
- [58:33]
Bob Sturm
He's going to be tagged.
- [58:34]
Dominic Robinson
He's going to be tagged. Okay. So, you know, I guess they'll. They probably have to pass there. But. But yeah, I, I think if those three guys are there and there is a possibility that one of the three will slide there, you gotta take them. If it's not one of them, I don't necessarily see, you know, anyone else. That's a position of need that they would actually, you know, entertain.
- [59:04]
George Dunham
And then. So, so let's, let's try to fit in two more topics. George, if you think it's time at 20, again, we're just, we're spitballing here, but if I, If I were to probably figure out what I'm getting at 12, which would probably be. Is Downs, there is Styles there. If not, I'm probably leaning towards one of the corners, even though Dominic may challenge me on that. Let's just spitball at 20, what you might want to do if we're not trading back. Because of course we have to say it again. In order to trade back, somebody's got to want to trade up and you have to be prepared to take your best guy. This is where I do think the edge class is interesting and I do think you will have some options there. And so I want to present, just based on the consensus board, the idea of, like Cassius Howell from A and M, Calderick Falk from Auburn and Akeem Mazador, Miami. And this is where we can kind of get into the window conversation with Dominic, which is, if I'm trying to win in these next three years, do I mind that Akeem Mezador is darn near 25 years old?
- [60:22]
Dominic Robinson
Me, personally? No, no. I, I'm going to go and have him play ball for me from 25 to 30 and play his best ball and let the chips lie where they are at in that second contract and let it probably let him walk after that one because he played so great for us. That's, that's the hope. So I, I, I will say if I'm the Cowboys GM, I'm trying to, if I get to 12 and there is no, none of those Ohio State guys, I trade back and Mesadore is my first pick. That's, that's, that's what I've been looking at. And I love that. I freaking love. I'm taking him all the way. You asked about the corners. If the Clemson kit is there. Avion.
- [61:08]
George Dunham
Avian.
- [61:09]
Dominic Robinson
Terrell. Terrell Terrell.
- [61:11]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [61:11]
Dominic Robinson
If he's there, I'm taking him. If not, then I'm, I, I'm trading, I'm gonna try and trade that pick. Hopefully if I, if I took my 12th pick, you know, if I got one of those Ohio State guys there and then I have no tarot at 20, I'll take it. But if I don't there, there's no one else there that I love. And so I probably then try to trade that, that 20th pick. But I love Macedor at the 20 spot. I think that's a perfect fit. I think you love what you get. Kaden McDonald maybe from Ohio State is great there, you know, but, you know, that's, that's sort of what I'm thinking at 20. Again, I want to trade one of these two picks.
- [61:56]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [61:56]
Dominic Robinson
If, if, if I can. And, but if Those guys are there, then. Then I'm not going to trade it. I'm going to go ahead and take them.
- [62:05]
Bob Sturm
You know, I had the thought that sometimes if you want defense, you want offensive players being taken off the board so defensive players drop down. In this case, would it also be decent? Along those lines, Dominic, if you want to get more value and trade the 20th pick, or if you wanted to trade 12 and get something around the 20th selection that, I don't know, someone like Jeremiah Love sliding to 12 may make the Cowboys phone ring more when they get there and they could get a better deal. What's better?
- [62:41]
George Dunham
Or does it, or does it make their hand twitch to turn in the card and go get him?
- [62:45]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, maybe. But I just wonder what's better, an offensive player sliding that has value or an offensive player going in front of number 12 to bounce a defensive player down? Which one do you think is better?
- [62:58]
George Dunham
That's a good.
- [62:59]
Bob Sturm
You.
- [63:00]
Dominic Robinson
What do you think, Bob? That's a really good question.
- [63:03]
George Dunham
Well, no, I mean, this depends on
- [63:05]
Bob Sturm
who it is and all that.
- [63:07]
George Dunham
Yeah, well, honestly, I feel like offensive line and wide receiver and Jeremiah Love could all be that type of guy. And I guess what you're cheering for if you're a Cowboy fan is those are the types of guys who, who have a good month here in March combine and then workouts. Because honestly, it's, it's not crazy. I think we're, we're on the same page, Dominic and I, that of the top 50 players, 30 of them, maybe 35, feel like defensive players. But when you talk about the top 11, you can see scenarios where most of those teams are so awful at, so on both sides of the ball that they will fall in love with my Oga, the tackle from Miami or, or Lomu from Utah or some of these offensive line prospects because their quarterbacks are getting killed or they need a quarterback and maybe there's a second quarterback that can get into this top 11 mix, I don't know. And then those wide receivers and then Kenyon Siddiq, this, this generational tight end from Oregon. And so you start putting those guys together and that's where defenders can slide but also trade up. Opportunities will present themselves. And I, I think the Cowboys would lean to trying to turn those two picks into three or four picks based on what we know from Dallas, which is they do love to trade back when the opportunity presents itself, especially when they feel the stress of we actually need five new guys on our defense, not two. We're not, we're not Two players away. We need five. And so how do we do that? Well, let's sign one or two free agents for the first time in a dozen years, but then let's also, you know, try to get three or four bites of the apple in the first two days of the draft.
- [64:57]
Bob Sturm
Boy, and it probably applies every year. You've got a hit, but given the misses this team has had in the last three or four years, they have got to hit, whether it's 12 and 20 or it's 12 and whatever they've traded down to 27 and they've added something else in the second round. Wherever these picks are falling, man, they have. They've got the hit on these mama Bears.
- [65:22]
George Dunham
There's no doubt. And maybe that's where we can wrap this up, Dominic, with. With a quick overview of those first three picks from the 2025 draft. Because it lasts spring. You know, we were. We were dreaming at this point last spring of like Tet McMillan making it to the Cowboys at. Was that also number 12?
- [65:43]
Dominic Robinson
That was at 12.
- [65:44]
George Dunham
Yep. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, so we were like, man, can. Can Tet make it to 12? And he almost did, but then Carolina always takes our guy and. And he was, he was really good this year. I think he's going to have an unbelievable career. And. And therefore, the Cowboys did confuse us by taking another guard. We don't mind Tyler Booker. We think he's going to be a heck of a player. But I'll stop using the pronoun we. And I want to hear kind of a brief thought on each of the top three guys. So Tyler Booker, what did we all think of his first season?
- [66:25]
Dominic Robinson
So this was so interesting. Like I said, we were waiting. We talked wide out for months, you know, and we. At that spot, there was, you know, obviously they took T. Mac. Matthew golden went to the Packers. He ended up. So t. Mac had 77 catches. Matthew golden had 33 catches. We were pretty excited about Matthew golden going to the Cowboys. There's obviously a big difference between him and TMac, but that was, that was. That was interesting. And then they were talking Walter Nolan in that spot.
- [67:03]
George Dunham
Oh, yeah.
- [67:04]
Dominic Robinson
So as mad as we are or however we feel about Tyler Booker, I don't know how. How you guys feel. I think he had a. A great season for a rookie guard in the position. I mean, you look at the success the Cowboys had, they're in the top four and most adol. Analytic categories like they were. It was a good offense. And to do that with a rookie guard, you know, he Gave up, I think he gave up three sacks, you know, but he played. He only missed three games. So you're going to get a kid and he misses three games. He plays a thousand snaps, which is the same as Tyler Smith played. Tyler Smith also gives up three sacks. This guy's, you know, you know, a pillar of your offense. So as a rookie, that's a really, really good year, man. And let me just say this. And Walter Nolan played six games this year. So, so, so how, how, how, you know, do. What do you want, what do you want to. Would you like to trade with the, with the Arizona Cardinals and take, take Walter Nolan back in that spot?
- [68:14]
George Dunham
I feel great about Booker and George. I don't know where you net out on him. I just, I just got to, I feel like we got to stop taking guards and non premium positions in the top 20 of the draft. I'm willing to make exceptions, but if Tyler Smith and Tyler Booker are both guards and then we miss on Mozzie Smith and you know, you start looking at how you're using your first round picks, you just have to really make sure that you're using them on the positions that determine wins and losses the most. So I think Tyler Booker is going to be a great guard. I just wonder how smart that is. You know when you say, is he the 12th most impactful wins and losses piece to the puzzle that will come out of this draft? And that's. It's nothing against him. He appears to be a beast.
- [69:07]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I love him and I love the person too. I think he's been great for the locker room and that's one thing I think Schottenheimer's big on. And even they were, they were doing some of this before he got here was what kind of guy are you? And I think he's, he fits that, that profile of great guy. And I know a couple of guys that they passed on because they didn't feel like it was going to be their kind of guy. So yeah, I love that pick.
- [69:36]
George Dunham
Okay, so real fast now on Ezraku and Ravel. Yeah, I think they're both absolute positive keys to a, making the 2025 draft smell good and B, making the defense. The, the, the amount that they could transform this defense, if they are dudes, is off the charts. We think as a Raku can be one. We have no idea on Revel from what I can tell or Revel. I'm not even positive how to say his name, which is never a good sign after one year in the league. But, but they both play premium positions. They both seem to slide for various reasons. As a rock who it's a little cloudier on why he slid at his spot. I do think that is clearly best player available and, and maybe maybe a couple thoughts on each of those. Dominic.
- [70:33]
Dominic Robinson
Yeah, so Ezraku I think is going to be great or maybe not great, but for that spot that, that was a good value.
- [70:43]
George Dunham
Good pick.
- [70:44]
Dominic Robinson
I think what we saw from him this year was encouraging. Ravel I'm worried about, I mean we don't know because he didn't play very much, but I don't feel, don't feel good about, about him. I will say this and Mike or I Bob, I think you'll, you'll probably remember our buddy Mike Green.
- [71:09]
George Dunham
Yes. Mike Marshall.
- [71:11]
Dominic Robinson
Mike Green from Marshall had a phenomenal season for the Ravens and he was there for Revel's pick. He was. Yeah, I believe he was 77 or something like that and Ravel was 76.
- [71:24]
Bob Sturm
So,
- [71:26]
Dominic Robinson
so that, that one's gonna, gonna, gonna bother me a little bit. You know, it just that Mike Green played 700 snaps this year. It had really good pressure numbers, had some sacks like he did some really, really good things even more than, than Ezraku. So you know, you, you had a chance to, to go get him and, and Bob, we loved him. Remember, I believe he was both our number one edge.
- [71:56]
George Dunham
Yeah. You know he went, he went after Azaraku at 59 to the race.
- [72:01]
Dominic Robinson
59, yeah.
- [72:02]
George Dunham
Yeah. So I just want clean that up a little bit. Ravel went 76 as a raku. Yeah. So you would be picking either Green or Ezraku. And if I can go through the notes in my head, I just don't think the Cowboys were comfortable with the off field stuff with Green. Right. Relative to Ezraku. Yeah. I think Green had some, how we say things to investigate by the personnel department before they picked him. But, but absolutely.
- [72:37]
Dominic Robinson
Are you sure you're not mixing him with Pierce with the Tennessee.
- [72:42]
George Dunham
I got Mike Green 59, but yes, if you want to go back to Pierce who went to Atlanta back in the first round at 26, very big person of questions and honestly this isn't
- [72:56]
Dominic Robinson
a bad thought to remember Mike Green having off the field stuff. I, I remember Pierce, but I didn't remember Greenhouse.
- [73:03]
George Dunham
I believe a girl, a girl had some accusations. I don't remember if they were true or not, but Pierce had questions and of course Pierce is in jail today. So that's, that's a, that, that's how we can say George, that's a bad first round pick for the Falcons.
- [73:22]
Bob Sturm
That's a mess there for sure.
- [73:23]
George Dunham
But Ravel, I mean, look, he was hurt. We knew he would probably be red shirted, almost like Mike Nolan and or Walter Nolan. Excuse me. And when he got out there, it looked like he was kind of Trayvon Diggs. Like he wasn't confident in coverage and he wasn't really interested in tackling. And those are, those are two things that make us nervous. If you're a Cowboys fan watching corners play is can this guy cover well and with confidence and also will he help us tackle somebody? Please, no more of this Olay bs, You know what I'm saying?
- [73:59]
Bob Sturm
Well, that's a project for Christian Parker. I guess that's right off season to try to get him on the field and play with some confidence. Dominic, man, thanks for joining us. That was awesome. And yeah, we hope to talk to you some more before the draft.
- [74:13]
Dominic Robinson
Appreciate it guys. It was great, great. Thank, thanks for sharing Bob with me. Ja. I appreciate it.
- [74:18]
Bob Sturm
Oh yeah, you bet. That's Dominic Robinson, draft expert, joining us here on Football Friends. Thanks to our producer Peter Welton for Bob Sturm. I'm George Dunham. We'll talk to you next time on the Mewzers the podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends.
- [74:43]
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