Bob Sturm (5:21)

Hey, the practice facility, the Ford center, hosts country music awards and high school football games and East West Shrine Game and crazy stuff like that too.

George Dunham (5:33)

So. Yes. So think about it. Nobody else makes more than 244 million. The Cowboys are at 629 million. And that's every year, by the way, guys. And so when we talk about having a $400 million advantage over everybody else, it's every year. It's not one time. After two years it's 800 million. After three years, it's 1.2 billion. And so the Cowboys absolutely print money. So that is truth number one. That is not even challenged by anybody. There is no other side, like, let's, you know, hear both sides of this. Everybody agrees that the Cowboys make so much more money than any other franchise. And then the second truth, which we have to compare and contrast with is that the Cowboys have spent less money on players than any other franchise when it comes to free agency and when it comes to just the annual capital improvements of acquiring players. And we talked about that last week, but I do think it's worth reemphasizing. Absolutely. Over the course of six seasons, they have spent 54 million total in a league where many teams are up near 300 million. So the 31st biggest spender is the Baltimore Ravens at 74 million, which is 20 million more than the Cowboys. And then on a per player basis, they're at 3.4 billion, 3.4 million per season per player, which is easily the worst. Nobody else is below five and a half million. So, so they are dead last in total and dead last in total per player. So the two points are they make the most money and they spend the least money in the entire league. And that includes teams like the Cardinals or the Jaguars or teams we don't even think are trying sometimes. And so, so that's important. And I don't want to get lost in the sauce there, but when we hear Jerry every year talk about, man, we've spent a lot of money over the years and we're about to spend a ton of money, there does have to be some Charlie Brown and Lucy George, from the standpoint of, is he just talking again? So we should hear him here, talk about the promises of what the next week or two are going to look like for Cowboy fans. But we should also tell you we have heard him talk about all in before, and it turned out to be sort of what the kids might call horse hockey. So let's actually, yeah, let's hear from the bus from last week. This is about two minutes. And I think the voice you're going to hear first is Clarence Hill, longtime Cowboy reporter, asking about putting all your chips in and busting your budget with

Jerry Jones (8:13)

the rounds in pushing all your chips in. They're two different things. And that I think you make reference to saying, you know, that postseason meeting, we're gonna bust the budget. There's difference between being more aggressively busting the budget.

George Dunham (8:26)

You know what I'm saying?

Jerry Jones (8:27)

Well, I, I, we're smanicking. Yes, yes. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. First of all, I want you to know that the only way to push more is for me to go borrow some of my future. Okay. Expect me to go borrow some of my future. Okay. So that's one representation that you're thinking of now as opposed to in the future. But I look at things frankly beyond that. I look at where we are with Dak and I look at where he is in his career and I look at some of the pluses that we have on our front and what we think we can do there and what we can do with Pickens and Lamb and what we can do with running back that we just signed. And so all of those things I want to do everything we possibly can to stop somebody and to basically of win some third downs more than we did last year. And so I think that would be the area that you would see me bust the budget. Whoever said that earlier that would where you would see me do that is what we're doing defensively. And I would expect anybody that's a Cowboy fan or a critic of the Cowboys to say, duh, that's not hard to see Jerry to do. But I guess what I'm doing is saying yes, intend to do that if given the opportunity.

George Dunham (9:58)

So there's a number of things to consider. The first one is it sounds like he agrees with what we talked about a couple weeks ago, which is there's an obvious window now. And so you should borrow against your future to play for the now. And I do think that makes a lot of sense just in terms of finances, George, because like people say you're putting it on your credit card, but that's not true because when you pay on your credit card, you're paying like a 20% interest penalty and it compounds. So you'll see this at times if you buy something on credit, they are obligated to disclose a financial thing that says you borrowed $1,200. But if you pay it back at the schedule we have with the APR interest we have, you're actually going to pay us back about $3,000 against the $1,200 you actually bor and that's bad finances. Anybody will tell you you don't need to be Dave Ramsey to understand those finances, but in the NFL there's no interest. And so if I borrow, let's say $50 million against my cap and I put it in 2020, well then that's going to be almost 30% of my entire cap. But if I can kick it back to 2026, it drops to like 17%. And if I push it again out to 2030 now, it's only 12% because the cap keeps going up and it's an interest free loan against those future caps. And so what I'm saying is $50 million now is not the same as $50 million in five seasons. And so if you have a window where you can win now, you are not only smart to acquire better players, but you are also smart financially to pay against a bigger cap, then it would make more sense as the cap rises every year. X number of percent and I think the average now, George, is like 7 or 8%. The cap goes up every single year. Well, if that's the case, then that $50 million gets smaller and smaller every time the cap expands, which is every year.

Bob Sturm (12:07)

You know, we've talked about the times where they've been close. Home field advantage after 2007, after 2016, when Dak and Zeke were rookies, you could even say one of the 12 win seasons for McCarthy. Technically, you could say, man, they're getting close. Even after those years, they didn't act like the team of, hey, we're close. Let's, let's knock down the door here and take some chances, you know, with a free agent or an aggressive trade or let's get out ahead of this and let's go ahead and sign our quarterback or running back to a deal. They just, it's been mismanaged. There's no doubt about it. And I guess the thing that really gets me as we look to what is Jerry about to do? The track record, as we've outlined on this on this podcast, and you've talked about it on your radio show, the last time the Cowboys really made an aggressive free agency signing was Dion. I mean, it really was. I mean, if you like, you know, an all in kind of like, hey, we're close.

George Dunham (13:22)

We got Sports Center.

Bob Sturm (13:24)

Yeah. Like, we got beat in the NFC Championship game, which they did that year by San Francisco. Let's go get the guy who was covering Michael Irvin and let's sign him to a crazy deal. And that's really the last time people

George Dunham (13:40)

might push back on say to right. Or Leonard Davis. But again, we're talking about. Those guys are all like 50 now.

Bob Sturm (13:50)

So.

George Dunham (13:50)

So we're talking, we're talking about, we're talking about a long, long time ago. And you know, Bill Parcells was the coach. So think about how long ago that is and think about how some of our listeners right now were in, you know, fourth grade when, when, when to was playing for the Cowboys. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it's amazing. Well, here's a great way to put it, George.

Craig Miller (14:12)

Name.

George Dunham (14:13)

So Dak Prescott's about to start his 11th season as quarterback. Dallas Cowboys Name the best player the Cowboys ever went and signed on a Dak Prescott team. So since 2016, who's their best free agent signing?

Bob Sturm (14:29)

They've all been drafted players.

George Dunham (14:31)

They've all been drafted players. They've probably traded for one or two. I mean, George Pickens would count, but,

Bob Sturm (14:37)

yeah, if you just took.

George Dunham (14:40)

If you just took free agency, I think you might end up with Randall COBB On a one year, $5 million deal in 2019. And I think. I think that's the best player. So. So when people, you know, try to tell the story of Dak Prescott, did he get, you know, organizational commitment to go all in to try to maximize his opportunity? I'm not in any way trying to say that. That he's been done wrong. I mean, he's made a ton of money and he's. He's obviously had a really good career, but not a great career by historical proportions. And you could always say, man, would my team help? Would my team say, we need groceries and we can't wait three years for rookies to develop. We need guys who can help us right away. And like, we just. We've said this. How many weeks in a row, the two teams in the super bowl were the two teams that were amongst the top, top spenders in free agency just last year. So this idea that you can't help yourself in free agency is absurd. Now, on the other hand, you also can make some really big mistakes in free agency. We understand. Sure. So, again, we get that you can't build the entire thing out of free agents. That's so expensive, but you should be able to help and supplement yourself. And so he's recognizing the window. He's recognizing the opportunity. He's also recognizing what we talked about a couple weeks ago, which is you can create $100 million by sending some emails to the league office on restructures, which I believe they've either done or are doing. And you can also extend George Pickens and create another ton of money as well. And so I think I'm falling for it, I guess, is what I'm saying. By the next episode of Football Friends, I think the Cowboys will have a piece or two that we would have to consider clear starters and maybe above average starters on this version of the Cowboys defense. It sounds like they are absolutely pot committed this time.

Bob Sturm (16:53)

And I hate to keep pumping air in this guy's tires, but maybe that's the Brian Schottenheimer influence of, hey, could be this. We've got to do this. This is what we've. Look at Seattle. Look at New England. And it's not just spending money for the sake of spending money, but we've got to go out and really get these players that are pro personnel players have identified as this is a dude at linebacker, this is a dude at edge. Which by the way, I'm coming around on your Max Crosby thought of making that deal with Las Vegas. We can kick that around if you'd like. But things like that, at least that conversation of what if, what if we made this trade, these two free agent signings and these two first round picks, now you're talking about what should be real value, real talent infused into this team that can make a jump from a 7 win team to an 11 win team and you're in the tournament and we'll see how it goes. I'm with you. I think it's, there's a possibility there that, that, that Jerry would be willing to pay for that.

George Dunham (18:11)

Yeah. And we're at the time here you just mentioned the start of the new league years is March 11th. And so let's just tell contact with free agents with contact with UFAS, that can start Monday. So March 9, Monday, I think at 11am you can start talking to teams and we know based on previous years that that means there will be agreements before mid afternoon on Monday. Now they won't be official, you can't turn them into the league until March 11, but you know Schefter and Rapaport and those guys will start telling you what the agents are texting them, that we have a deal with this team and so you can stop calling us because we've, we've, we've agreed to terms with Team X. So that will happen Monday into Wednesday. Honestly, by Wednesday it's possible a lot of the big business will already be done. And so that's one thing to look at. The other thing you mentioned was the trade component. And I'm a little, I'm not even sure I fully agree with the Max Crosby idea just because I think you would probably have to give up one of your firsts because I think Las Vegas has that type of leverage and

Bob Sturm (19:26)

maybe a future first, which I'm really not wild about.

George Dunham (19:28)

Yeah, I, I would hesitate on that one, George, but I have another name for you and I'm really committed to this one that I think the Cowboys need to be on the phone right now and they could have this trade done by the end of the podcast. I think Minka Fitzpatrick is what this team needs as that nickel safety. I've listened to Christian Parker Talk about it. I've talked to my friend Cody Alexander at Match quarters who is a X's and O's mind on defense and he is saying what Christian Parker was saying, which is the key to this whole thing is you need a nickelback who is not some slight slot corner. We're talking about a guy with safety ability, but maybe corner coverage skills. And that's a very, very small group

Bob Sturm (20:19)

of guys what Dominic was talking about last week. And Caleb Downs.

George Dunham (20:22)

Yes.

Bob Sturm (20:24)

Who can play in the slot.

George Dunham (20:25)

Yeah, right. And so the Caleb Downs medical information is very interesting because maybe teams starting to raise eyebrows about his meniscus and things like that. Maybe that actually gets him into your range. But the problem with that is if you go all in on the draft, then you better be right because free agency will be over. And so I look at Minka Fitzpatrick playing in Miami and he was in the 2018 draft. He was a special, special player out of Alabama. What's interesting is he was a corner at Alabama, but since he's been in the league, he's kind of been a perfect hybrid. And as this goes Now, George, he's 29 and he's played a ton of football and he has given his body to this game to a point where he plays, of course. But it's not uncommon to see him looking like he's a little bit beat up. Because if you're playing the star position, they call it the nickel, the big nickel safety hybrid who's in the box and, and getting after things that will take a toll on you. So I was looking at his Dolphins film from just this past year and he's still making plays. He can blitz off the edge, he's great in run support, cover, he's intercepting. So I think that where the Dolphins are right now is they would move him. And I think you are probably talking about a middle of the draft pick, not a first rounder or a second rounder. I'm thinking if you would take his contract, which I think is about 18 for next season and that's it, well then you can probably get him for something, maybe, maybe a fourth, I don't know, maybe a third. I don't know what the price is exactly, but I do think that's the type of player who if you do that then maybe assign, sign somebody like Nicobi Dean or Reed Blankenship and then we take those two firsts and we go get two dogs to add to this defense as well. Now I've completely changed over my defense maybe with those first, I Go get a top corner and I go look for a top edge rusher at 12 and 20 or something along those lines. So now I got four new pieces and two of them in Minka and Nakobe Dean are those high football IQ guys that you're just like, okay, this can be really what we're looking for. So, you know, there's just something to think about. That's the name. As I look at all the lists and the guys available and I look at what free agency would cost like the Saints. Alante Taylor can also play that hybrid, but he's not quite as physical as Minka. But maybe he's more fluid as a, as a cover guy. I kind of think that's a guy that you're going to have to go like four years and say four for 64, four for 72, somewhere in that range. And I could get Minka on a one year deal maybe for 18 million and maybe it costs way less in terms of a draft pick. So just trying to think about all the different ways you acquire talent this time of year and the guys who are available because their teams aren't contending, they're starting over. And you start to say, who are the guys between, say age 28 and 30 who might be able to help us right now? Where those teams are going to say, hey, give us something and we'll send you on your way.

Bob Sturm (23:47)

One name we have not mentioned on this podcast, a defensive player who is out there. And this is, again, it's not at that position, but I think it's at a position where the Cowboys may have been at their worst. And if the Nakobe Dean thing does not work out, if he indeed is the top name, what do you hear on the Devin Lloyd front? That from Jacksonville?

Craig Miller (24:12)

Okay.

George Dunham (24:12)

I mean, that's, that's a dude. That's a, that's a fantastic linebacker. And it's one that if the Cowboys go get him next Monday, we'll know how serious they are. Because the cost of a big time run and hit linebacker at that age is, you know, that's a lot. That's, that's a, that's a contract like I just described for Elante Taylor. You're probably getting in there at close to 20 a year and you probably have to go four years, five years. So that would be a big time acquisition. I assumed Jacksonville would not let him get out of Dodge, but if the Cowboys end up in that world, that is a guy that, he's 27 years old, he's always had great size.

Bob Sturm (25:02)

First round from 22, I do believe

George Dunham (25:05)

from Utah as I recall. And yeah, he, he, you know, he is a guy. It didn't happen right away for him but, but he's really grown into his own and, and was an all pro last year. So, so he timed his, his breakout, you know, real although his last two years, I, I don't want to say he just broke out. His last two years have been his best work and, and he timed it well for the end of his contract because he's about to get paid by

Bob Sturm (25:34)

somebody and maybe Jerry if he breaks the bank as we that's this year's phrase of break the bank and that that bank account's been pretty safe for a long time.

George Dunham (25:48)

Yes.

Bob Sturm (25:49)

Okay. We have a very special guest that is coming up next that has a question that works in well with this whole what is Jerry going to do? Thing. And we will introduce you to this special guest who has a very good question for both of us. Next.

Craig Miller (26:08)

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Bob Sturm (26:59)

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Bob Sturm (28:09)

So, Bob, I promised you a special guest this week on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends. I don't know if we could get any more special than a Muser himself. How about Craig Miller to the Cowboys podcast?

Craig Miller (28:24)

Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I'm a big fan.

Bob Sturm (28:27)

We're so excited. We don't have much company on this show, so we're really excited to hear from you and to see you. This is amazing. And Craig and I work together every morning on the Ticket in Dallas. And of course, we do the Muses the podcast together. And Bob, we've been kicking this around. Craig has a question for us. Okay. And it may take us a while to unpack it. So here we go.

Craig Miller (28:54)

Okay, so first of all, thank you for having me on this podcast. I'm a big fan. Secondly, you both know how much I respect your football brains, and I love listening to each of you talk about football, especially the Cowboys, because you've each been so immersed in that team forever. But I reference this probably once a year on our radio show because both of you have told me this same thing and I've heard both of you say it for 25 plus years on your various radio shows. And it always gives me a feeling of hopelessness. But I also happen to agree with the two of you. But I want to know where you currently stand on this, because both of you have said to me before and said to the radio audience before many times, it can not work the way it is structured with the Cowboys, with Jerry being the owner and the general manager, therefore, the GM has no accountability. And with that structure in place, it can work a little bit. It can work to the tune of some good regular seasons. But as we've seen for 30 years now, it has not worked to the tune of playoff success or returning to the NFC Championship Game or a Super Bowl. So here we are in 2026, and I haven't heard you guys say it yet this year, but I'm guessing you probably will. Do you both believe that it cannot still ultimately work the way it is structured at the Star?

Bob Sturm (30:38)

Bob, I'm running out of ways to answer this question. I do have. I do have some new information from this year. That may help my answer, but you go ahead. That is obviously the biggest problem with this team, and it's a really good question. Why do we continually beat our heads into the wall, knowing what the structure is and why even do all this?

George Dunham (31:03)

Yeah, that's interesting. And it is a bit of a hop up on the psychiatrist couch, I suppose, to try to figure out what fuels any sort of optimism about something where optimism seems to have left the building a long, long time ago. I think that's basically the idea here. And I don't know. I always have a belief that

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we

George Dunham (31:33)

like, if I cover this thing long enough, there will be a conclusion that is satisfactory, there will be an end where they get to the right place. And maybe it's a matter of just convincing yourself that at a certain point the numbers just will pop up correctly. But the way the Cowboys have been structured for a very, very long time is shocking to me that it hasn't resulted in what every human has a tendency to do, which is if something frustrates him, if getting towards a goal of success frustrates you enough, you're almost wired as a human to say, let me try the exact opposite to see if I can get different results. Whereas this organization, and that man in particular has really dug in, in some level of stubbornness that, no, I'm going to prove that this way can work, even when it's obvious to us that it doesn't seem to work at all. And so what keeps me optimistic about the Dallas Cowboys is probably based largely in how successful they were before it got messed up like this, and the belief that, yes, they will rise again. But I do admit that the way they go about it over the course of years, decades, does seem to be to make them their own worst enemy. So in a way, Craig, I agree with your general premise of what is the matter with us for still believing that this could be the year or that someday they'll go all the way, which is a slogan I really believe in so much that I put it on my Twitter bio. It's just this idea that I can't leave my watchtower now because I swear, the second I leave, it's all going to hit right and they're finally going to find football immortality. And I don't want to invest this much time and give up now only to see that I left a year too soon. So now I'm just playing the numbers, George. And I realize that may be more information than crazy. That's kind of where I'm at.

Bob Sturm (33:49)

And I'M afraid that's where I've fallen to, is just, hey, odds, sooner or later they're going to get there. Even though, as Bob and I have talked about, even though AI does not have them winning it in the next 30 years, they have the London franchise winning before Dallas can come back and win another Super Bowl. Part of it is that part of it is frustrated as I get with Jerry. I do think over time and the influence of people like Bill PARCELLES and Will McClay and now Brian Schottenheimer. I have always believed this as well, and maybe I haven't said it enough. While the structure is flawed and the structure has continually sabotaged this team, I do think if you have the right guy as head coach and he puts together a dynamic staff and you have the right guy at quarterback and then obviously the talent around it, it can happen. I don't think Jerry could even mess that up. If you had the right pieces in place and he's been searching for that, who knows, maybe Mike McCarthy could have been that guy. Did Jerry keep him from doing it? Him? Maybe as Bob and I were just talking about, maybe by not spending enough and being more aggressive with trades and free agency, maybe that's what sunk McCarthy. Did he not try to convince Parcells to stay one more year? Maybe that could have done at that team that Wade took that next year in 2007 that had home field advantage, but lost to the eventual champion, the Giants. What if Parcells had been the coach of that team? I don't think Tony Romo and Jason Whitten would have gone to Cabo. Not that that's the one thing that sunk them in that game, but I. While they haven't been close at some points, I could see, oh, man, that was a pathway where Gilligan could have gotten off the island right there. He just. They just didn't take it. And I still believe it can happen. And maybe I'm just too optimistic about Brian Schottenheimer, but maybe he's the one. Maybe he's the one who can cut through it all. And I almost think there's a way. Just as we try to interpret Jerry, I bet when you're working for him, there's a way. And maybe Schottenheimer is trying to do this now. And it's the same thing. McCarthy and Garrett and Wade and everyone's tried and that is to negotiate Jerry and those treacherous waters sometimes that you have to go through. Maybe he's the guy who can. Can work all that because he is a communicator because he can, you know, cut through some of the nonsense. He's a. He's a lifer in this league. And maybe, just maybe that can do it. But, hey, when I hear Jerry speak from the Combine, I'm also just dropping my head to my hand thinking, oh, my God, we got this. This whole, you know, riff raff going again.

George Dunham (36:55)

So, in a weird way, Craig, are we. And see, this is where the conversation gets uncomfortable. But are we trying to outlast Jerry? Is that what we're doing, where everyone has a finite amount of life? And if you outlive him in a way, does that introduce a whole new set of variables that could restore the Cowboys to their former power? Partly because like we said earlier in the show and have said on all of our respective shows a thousand times, they don't lack for resources. So the number of reasons why the Cowboys can't be successful is actually quite small. And, you know, sometimes nature has a way of fixing those problems over the course of time, as dark as that is.

Craig Miller (37:51)

Yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it. But you would be assuming that Stephen would then not also assume the titles of owner and general manager, which would keep the structure flawed, just with a different person in place.

George Dunham (38:08)

But the odds that two guys could be that historically stubborn is longer than the odds of one guy being that historically stubborn.

Bob Sturm (38:17)

It's almost as if you'd have to have a father, son. Oh, wait, yeah. That's what they are. Yeah. Maybe that's the only way it could be two generations of being that stubborn. You know, who we don't talk about enough is Mike Brown, who owns the Cincinnati Bengals. Took it over from his dad, the legendary Paul Brown, and he does both. He does the same thing.

George Dunham (38:40)

Two very similar results.

Bob Sturm (38:42)

They finally got there with Joe Burrow. They didn't win it, but they got close. But. But the results of. The Bengals have never won the super bowl. And, you know, maybe there's your answer. You can't do it this way. If you. If you have your owner also being the gm, de facto gm, and, you know, occasional gm, he let most. And he listens to everyone around him. It's almost the same structure. And, you know, maybe you do have your answer there. This just can't work in this league. That. But we're just separated in failure and success and just, you know, centimeters.

George Dunham (39:23)

The Mike Brown thing is interesting because he did get to a Super bowl, and there's every reason that Joe Burrow could have won that. They were very close before Stafford Got him. What does then depress you again is somehow the Bengals have managed to miss the playoffs three straight years with Joe Burrow being age 26, 27 and 28 or something like that. So they've been gone in three years since that super bowl, basically. And, and that's, you know, another sign that it's just honestly, and it's Craig is right from the get go, which is you can't have somebody in that important of a position without any sort of accountability and any sort of like, you must make these moves to make our team better or else. And there's no or else. If you've hired yourself and, and you know, it's even that thing where people are like, yeah, but he's one of the best owners in football. And I really find that a bad discussion as well. I know he's in the hall of Fame, and I know he's won executive of the year a few times. So I realize this won't stand up in court. But. But when we go back to how much they've invested of their incredible resources back into the team or into the organization, like there is a salary cap, but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to manipulate the cap to their will by restructuring and by kicking the can and by even paying teams to take bad contracts off them. And also, they could hire the best front office in football history. They could hire the best five GMs and make them all Dallas Cowboys employees. They could do the same with their coaching staff, but they choose not to. They choose to kind of be one of the more frugal franchises with all these revenues of any team in the, in the sport. And it's all very curious, to be honest.

Craig Miller (41:18)

Yeah. And it's from the perspective of Jerry, the gm, they're trying to win in spite of the way he has set up the organization. And look how he handles his coaches. He gives them three years, four years, five years, and if they. They don't get the job done, he moves on. Well, imagine the last 30 years if he had had somebody as general manager. How many different GMs would we have had for the Cowboys in that time with such a lack of playoff results, he probably would have gone through five or six. Gm.

George Dunham (41:54)

Yes.

Bob Sturm (41:54)

Yeah.

Craig Miller (41:55)

Seven or eight maybe. Who knows? And yet that doesn't click with him. That if I had been hiring GMs with these same results, same way I do with coaches, I cycle through coaches because none of them can get me to the NFC Championship game, I would have been changing out these GMs. But then when you hear him at the combine say, yeah, I don't, I don't. I'm not bothered by my mistakes because, you know, I'm still here and I've lived to, to talk about all of them. Well, of course you are because you're not going to fire yourself. And it's just maddening. It's a maddening.

George Dunham (42:29)

Yes.

Craig Miller (42:30)

Cycle that the Cowboys are in because of his inflexibility.

Bob Sturm (42:36)

And he added to that comment of, you know, I was just listening to the advice that I was given. If you say they're my mistake. Well, I. And he didn't name names, but if he was, he would say, you know, Will McClay, that was his pick. Or that's who our head coach or defensive coordinator wanted. Mozzie Smith. That. That wasn't my pick. I was just listening to what people thought. And that. To your point, Bob, that, that, that drives me crazy too. Is the general manager should be the guy who every day wakes up thinking roster, roster, roster, who's at the bottom of our roster. That's what Parcells. That's how he operated. That's how Jimmy operated. How can I turn this over? What are some trades? What is the value of this draft? What is the. What's the need on my roster? And it's 365 days a year. And Jerry doesn't think like that. Will McClay and his staff may. But maybe 60% of their ideas are heard or 40% of their ideas are heard. And also what you were saying, Bob, to amplify. And this is their part that drives me crazy with all that revenue that they've generated, the Cowboys should lead the NFL. And investment in the coaching staff, nutrition training. We see these grades come out from the nflpa. Why are the Cowboys not A plus? And everything that goes around, weight room, analytics, whatever you want to put. Where there is no salary cap, it ought to be. They ought to be way ahead of the league on all of that stuff.

George Dunham (44:12)

Yeah, yeah. There's, there's, there's plenty here. Right down to. I think he hires coaches based on the disposition that they have to. Where they can work under the parameters that the Jones family provides. So I think the fact that they do have Brian Schottenheimer is almost a mistake of how they normally hire, because they normally hire very submissive, willing to go along with anything. I think Schottenheimer may not be nearly as submissive as Jason Garrett or Dave Campo or Chan Gailey or some of those guys. I think he also Knows the political game a little better. Maybe that's being the son of Marty. But he does understand that I got to keep the owner happy, but I still gotta be true to what I believe about this game. And so I kind of think they start there. They don't interview somebody like Ben Johnson or Mike McDonald or some of these bright coaches just because they're not from this biosphere. That drives me crazy. And. And then the competitive edge of Jerry Jones. I've always believed this. I'm interested in what you think of this Craig, is that I kind of think his super bowl is the Forbes list. I think he does. He is competitive. He does want to win his Super Bowl. But his super bowl has been to be that of a businessman, which is, at the end of the year, have I made more money than any of my competitors? Well, then I've won. I am the champion. And the Cowboys, of course, have been champions by that measure for 15 years in a row, basically since they opened their new stadium. And so does he feel that he's failing? If he is absolutely boat racing the entire other 31 franchises, in revenues, which

Craig Miller (46:02)

he is, yeah, that is his super bowl for sure. And if the other super bowl happens to come along, then great.

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Craig Miller (46:09)

But, you know, he's. From the time he's been in grade school, he's been all about making money. Now he's also been about football. He's always been a football fan and he played, and that's how he makes that competitive side. Yeah, Right. But yes, the Forbes list is number one for him. And as long as he's doing that, and as long as they're the most talked about franchise in all of sports, then he feels like he's succeeding as an owner, slash, gm. But as George said, a GM should be about roster, roster, roster. And I'm curious because I've heard, Bob, you allude to this from time to time. How many of the 53 could Jerry actually name? First and last name? If you just sat him down right now without a roster in front of him, how many do you think he could actually name? Keeping in mind he's the general manager and every other GM could probably name all 53. Yeah.

George Dunham (47:06)

Yeah. That's. That's terrifying to think about. And even more terrifying is, can he name five starters on the New York Jets? Can he name.

Craig Miller (47:15)

You know, there's no way.

George Dunham (47:16)

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's. That's what you're dealing with is, is you're. You're in a room with these other 31 GMs. And I, you know, because we've met some of them and we visited with them and we've seen their work. We know that they have a working knowledge of darn near every single player in professional football. And I'm just, I'm sorry. We heard the audio earlier in this episode where Jerry says we re signed the running back. I'm not positive if we waited for him or followed up that he would instantly know you actually signed Javante Williams. You know, so. And you know, hey, give us a thumbnail of what you thought of him at North Carolina or Denver, Jerry, or, you know, just any of these things.

Bob Sturm (48:01)

So, so he's playing where he went to college. That's a really good one.

George Dunham (48:05)

No, he could not. And, and, and he's, you know, he's been playing dress up all these years and, and I want to be respectful of what he is been capable of and what he has done. But, but I do think if you're a Cowboys fan and you want to know why this hasn't worked all these years, I do believe at its core it is that they continue to change very, very little about the way they do business. And that is more specifically him. So then you come back to the endless discussion of will Stephen be different? And I think that's fascinating and I don't think anybody could actually know because there's a very good chance that Steven almost, if you like, watch the TV show succession, is very, very careful not to upset his life calling and to ever go, you know, bang heads with Jerry while Jerry is still with us. And I do think there's a really good chance he would do things completely differently. But for now, he is in lockstep with so much of Jerry's thought process that he's either a creation of what he thinks will keep him as the, the, the king to be or, or I don't know. I, I just think that's undetermined. And so I at least want to give them the benefit of. And I often say this on the air, but the son of Bill Wirtz, the Chicago Blackhawks owner said all the right things. And then when Bill Wirtz passed, Rocky Wirtz did everything completely different and the Chicago Blackhawks became a dynasty within about five years. And I do use that at least to point back at the Blackhawks. For most of Bill Wirtz reign was one of those sleeping giants where everybody said, why aren't the Blackhawks actually good in the National Hockey League? There's no reason they shouldn't be good. And everybody said, well, their owner is holding them back. And it turns out he was. And so I do at least want to leave that door cracked a little bit before we just say he's Jerry. He's Jerry. Exactly. Jerry. You know?

Craig Miller (50:14)

You know, one problem with that is that he. Stephen, may be like Prince Charles. He may not inherit the throne till he's about 75.

George Dunham (50:23)

That's right.

Bob Sturm (50:24)

Yeah.

Craig Miller (50:25)

Because Jerry may be in this gig for 10 more years. And what, Steven's in his 60s now. Right. So we may not get a very long run of Stephen as GM yeah.

Bob Sturm (50:35)

May have to rely on Spalding to do something about all of this. Okay, what about this for Jerry? You know, will Steven be different than Jerry? How about this is a. Are we close to a tipping point? And I think we've been saying this for about five years now, but I just wonder. Jerry is 84. Is that enough of a motivation for him to think, okay, now I really will push the chips in because time is ticking. And I know we said that about him when he was 77 and 78, but he's 84 now, and he's talked about surviving cancer. And, heck, I know I feel different about life now that I've hit the big six. Zero. Craig and I have talked about that. I guarantee you, when I'm 84, I'm pushing some chips to the center of the table. Does that change his mentality at all? Or is he stubborn till the very end and he writes his last check?

George Dunham (51:33)

I've been waiting for that moment for, like, a decade now. It's. It's really weird. We've been on. We've. We've had this conversation how many times, guys, I. I feel like I forget which camp it is, but there was actually probably a decade ago, there were whispers that Jerry's having some. Some. Some health complications or something like that, where, depending on who you talk to, there was at least the premise that he's getting old. That sort of thing that happens in every season of succession or any way you want to compare this to. And so I'm going to just throw it out there that it might have been like the 2013 season was, like, the first time. It was the man. We should really consider that this may not be like this for very much longer. And so just to set up my answer, we've been waiting for the. I've got one last shot at this. I'm going all in. We've been waiting for that season for so long that it's almost like he's either waiting and waiting and waiting, and now he's ready to activate it for 2026, or he's just not wired that way. And we're back to. He's winning the Forbes super bowl every year. So I don't know. The human emotion is, man, I own this team. I want to be. I want to have that playoff glory again, one last time. But when we saw them go the entire 2024 season, that started with losing to the packers in that playoff game and then ended like 13 months later when they finally fired Mike McCarthy and they did nothing the entire year, they let it die on the vine. They didn't give any help. They didn't fire him, but they also didn't commit to him. It was just the worst Cowboy season I can remember. 2024, I thought, was just awful. And. And I. That that was not the actions of a guy who felt any urgency about the future at all. That's what was so bothersome to me.

Craig Miller (53:34)

Yeah. The first time we heard him talk about that was maybe when Romo was still his quarterback. Didn't they have a conversation on the bus at the Pro bowl where they each said, hey, we don't have many more years.

George Dunham (53:45)

Yes.

Craig Miller (53:46)

Left. And that's been 10 years. And in that time, they've been one of the lowest spending teams in free agency.

George Dunham (53:55)

Right.

Craig Miller (53:56)

They seem to have, to your point, Bob, no urgency. So. No, I don't. To answer your question, George, I don't think Jerry turning 84 is. Is lighting a fire under his butt at all.

Bob Sturm (54:07)

Yeah. And that was. That was 10 years ago. I think that was 2015, maybe going into 2016, when Romo was on the bus. And I think he said it to Jerry. I know you don't have that much longer to wait before we win one of these things, so. Yeah. We have been spinning our wheels on this for a long time. So, Craig, that's a long way of saying we don't have a good answer. We just have hoping and a prayer. How about that?

Craig Miller (54:33)

Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, I like the. Playing the odds. You're playing the NFL odds that despite Jerry and his mismanagement, his general mismanagement, that the odds are going to catch up and the Cowboys will get to the NFC Championship game at some point. But that's. That's still not much for a fan to put a whole lot into going into each year just crossing your fingers and hoping the GM doesn't wreck it again.

George Dunham (55:00)

Yeah, there's a. There's a. Again. I'll return to the idea that I, I take personal joy in trying to out stubborn, stubborn people. And so whether it, whether it be politicians or sports owners or whatever, I'm just going to keep stacking days and I'm going to try to outlive you if I disagree with you. So that's, that's the plan.

Bob Sturm (55:22)

That's the plan. And to, to win a Super bowl before the London chimney sweeps win one. That is, that's the plan of attack here in Dallas.

George Dunham (55:32)

That's right.

Bob Sturm (55:35)

That was awesome. I tell you what, when we do a radio show together and keep podcasting. Craig Miller.

Craig Miller (55:41)

Yeah, I like that idea. Thank you guys for having me on.

Bob Sturm (55:44)

Yes, you're the best. It was a treat. That was awesome. All right, that's Craig Miller, another muser to the musers, the podcast cowboys edition. Bob, let's take some questions from those who listen to the pod next.

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Bob Sturm (57:03)

Well, that was an awesome conversation with one Junior Miller about the future of the Cowboys and will Jerry be any different in 2026. Bob, you put out the call this week. What are folks thinking about and what do they want to ask us about this week on the musers the podcast cowboys edition.

George Dunham (57:23)

Yeah, we want to do more of this especially in the off season so, so hit us up on social media or you can email us as well. But there are, there's one here from big techs who wants to ask us to discuss trade down scenarios from 12 since it's more valuable than 20. That would net the Cowboys at least a second round pick because I think my preferences at the spot Arvell Reese, Sonny Styles, Caleb Downs, Ruben Bain, David Bailey and Mansoor Delaney will all be gone. So we've talked about this a little bit. Trading back from 12 is certainly one of those spots where, where you can get a lot more in return. And so could you get a, a one in the bottom third of the first and then add a second and if you could, George, would that chase you away from number 12, do you think?

Bob Sturm (58:22)

Maybe. Because I'm, I'm starting to think that those hot names we keep talking about, most of them wearing a buckeye helmet, will be gone by 12, so why not? I liked your idea last week with Dominic maybe sliding down with someone at, at 18 or something. And if you had 18, 20, you pick up a second round pick and maybe with value you could even get one added on depending on how desperate that team is to move up the number 12. I like that. And yeah, I guess the only question is are you then dropping from 12 to 18? Are you sacrifice like have you seen in your mind, Bob, and I haven't heard this yet. Is this a 15 player draft? A 20 player draft? As far as impactful players, I want to know that as an organization before I'm willing to trade out of something that high.

George Dunham (59:24)

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. There's another question along these lines and I think it all sorts of fits together which is basically the idea of how do you rank a draft if the premium positions aren't in great supply? And so we've talked about this in the past. You know, the, the premium positions, the big, the big five if you will. And the, the idea that you want quarterback tackle. It's from DFW Sports Fan. Sorry, at DFW Sports Fan. How should a team navigate the draft this year when the best players aren't at the money five positions? So quarterback, wide receiver, tackle, edge rusher and shut down corner. It's not a great year in those spots. A great year in those spots would be like, what was it, 2018 where we had four quarterbacks in the top seven picks or eight picks or whatever it was and, and that pushes everyone else down and everybody wins. But this year there's only one quarterback. There's probably no wide receivers that are real close to the top 10. There's some good edge rushers, there's some decent corners, but the best corner I've seen. George didn't play a down in 2025 and maybe I'll try to talk you into him in the weeks to come. And Jermad McCoy from Tennessee, who I

Bob Sturm (60:47)

love, I see his name to Dallas at 12 a lot in all these mocks around the country.

George Dunham (60:51)

I just don't know if the Cowboys have the stomach for another guy coming off a red shirt. But, you know, and you start to look at that list and you just say, maybe I have to. Maybe this is a great year to trade back. Because I think, like Dominic said, there's a lot of players that are sort of in the same value bin, and if I can get two of the top 50 instead of one at number 12, you know, let's say the picks end up being just. I realize I should have some trades ready and maybe we'll. We'll do the trade simulator in weeks to come and just to play around with it a little bit. But if I said 19 and 50 or 22 and 53 or 54, is that better to you? Better for you than 12? And it's interesting because we don't know about rising and falling, but there are guys in that 50 range that are really attractive, and some of them have moved up. Obviously, a guy like Jacob Rodriguez from Texas Tech is one of those players that you just keep saying to yourself that maybe, just maybe he's no longer at 50. Maybe he's a top 30 guy now and you have to be careful about all this stuff. And this is all the draft game that gives everybody tired head, but it is a good conversation, man.

Bob Sturm (62:14)

I love that dude. I love J Rod. Get a new mustache gang going here in Dallas.

George Dunham (62:19)

Boy, that'd be good with me. One more.

Bob Sturm (62:23)

Yeah, hit us.

George Dunham (62:24)

Okay, last one for this week, and then I promise we'll do more in the weeks to come, for sure. This is from Real Randy, man, and he says Dak hasn't started more than 12 games in consecutive seasons in the past eight years. Wow. The Cowboys haven't drafted a quarterback in the first two rounds since Quincy Carter 25 years ago. When and how do the Cowboys eventually address their future at quarterback?

Bob Sturm (62:54)

When they know for sure that Dak Prescott's career is almost over or already is over, or they've released him. And I don't think you see a quarterback drafted any. Any time in the next. If it's a good scenario. Three years.

George Dunham (63:10)

Yeah, Yeah. I, you know, I'm a big believer in Ron Wolf saying the. Every year is a good year to take a quarterback. There's no doubt. But I also admit that you're sort of. You're sort of playing powerball if you're going to do it on day three. For every Tom Brady, there's 100 not Tom Brady's. And so if we're seriously looking for Dax Successor you better be talking about top 100 guys. And I just don't think this organization is or frankly should be thinking about that right now. Based on the idea that they've gone so long since winning in the present tense, it's important for them to use this three year window to squeeze everything they can out of the special players they've assembled. And yes, Dak Prescott is a special quarterback. He's not a Hall of Famer yet, maybe you never, but he's at least in the conversation of well above average quarterbacks in this league. And you have to take advantage of that window better than you took advantage of the Tony Romo window. So that's what I would say.

Bob Sturm (64:21)

Amen. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm thinking that was an episode and we'll see what happens this week. We may have big news to talk about on our next podcast. Bob who knows, maybe if all the things we've been talking about for the last hour, if Jerry pushes the chips in, we are thinking, okay, Mr. Jones, looky here. All in. Break the bank, all that stuff. We'll have more on that next week. Thanks to Peter Welton for helping us out here in producing this fine show. And thanks for Junior Miller for stepping in another muser added to the equation on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys Edition Football.

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