Gambling with Beer Enemas - Episode 19

Summary

The Musers The Podcast – Episode 19: Gambling with Beer Enemas

Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: George Dunham, Craig "Junior" Miller, Gordon Keith
Producer: Peter Welton
Podcast Network: Cumulus

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Episode Overview

This episode of "The Musers" dives deep into the widespread, controversial, and often absurd topic of gambling in sports—with a special focus on the recent NBA gambling scandal involving players, coaches, and alleged mob connections. Amid their trademark irreverence and banter, George, Craig, and Gordon navigate the cultural, ethical, and personal facets of betting, both inside professional sports and within the world at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The NBA Gambling Scandal

• Scandal Details: The hosts open with a discussion of the breaking news that rocked the NBA, where 30 people (including coaches and players) were charged with illegal gambling and passing inside information to betting networks.
  • Notable figures involved: Chauncey Billups (Portland Trailblazers head coach), Terry Rozier (Miami Heat), Damon Jones (former NBA player/coach).
• Scope and Severity: The scandal’s ties to the mafia and high-stakes rigged poker games suggest a larger, more dangerous underbelly.
• Potential Impact:
  • Craig: "I think this is terrible for the NBA. I think it's going to be an epic disaster... you've already got a fan base that's growing disgruntled with the product...and now this. I think this is devastating for the league." [07:35]
  • George/Gordon: Wonder if the story will quickly pass due to "scandal fatigue," but acknowledge the unprecedented nature of a head coach arrest:
    • Craig: "A coach was arrested. We've never had a head coach in a major sport arrested." [09:26]
• Historical Context: Recalls past NBA controversies—1985 Patrick Ewing lottery, Tim Donaghy referee scandal—and notes that the league's integrity has long been under fan scrutiny.

2. Changing Attitudes Toward Gambling

• Normalization and Legalization:
  • Huge growth in legal sports betting, now in 38 states, and integrated into everyday sports programming (e.g., point spreads on ESPN).
  • George: "Legal betting in this country last year was up 22%, up to 150 billion. It's big business." [10:20]
• Societal Attitudes:
  • Craig cites New York Times/Pew data: public disapproval of sports betting has risen from 34% (2022) to 43% (2025), suggesting a possible pendulum swing.
• Proliferation of Prop Bets & Microwagering:
  • Gordon: "I do think we are going to get to the point where NBA teams and gambling, legal gambling operations run hand in hand, and everyone will sit there in the stands...prop betting every single possession." [27:49]

3. Personal Histories & Philosophies on Gambling

• George:
  • Grew up in a family that "always played for something”—from nickels to dollars.
  • Hustled at golf in his youth, rarely suffered significant losses because it was “more about winning than the money.”
• Craig:
  • Self-avowed "scared gambler." No appetite for personal risk; finds sports and competition inherently interesting without a financial stake.
  • "I've never needed that juice to make a game or anything I was competing in exciting...competition itself has always been enough." [26:09]
• Gordon:
  • Not attracted to gambling; finds even small stakes too stressful.
  • Shares stories of playing the lottery for "the dream," not for real expectation of winning.

4. Gambling’s Role in Sports Culture

• Integrity Concerns:
  • Inside information is a growing concern (easier access, blurred lines between legal/illegal betting).
  • George: "Some of the biggest sponsors for pro and college [sports] are sports books." [12:53]
• Athlete Psychology & Locker Room Culture:
  • Acknowledges competitiveness as a driver for athletes to seek out "action."
  • Stories of Michael Jordan’s legendary gambling exploits (with a "bag man" waiting in the parking lot)—emphasizing the culture of friendly (and not-so-friendly) high-stakes betting among athletes.
• Parallels to Alcohol & Stock Market:
  • Both can be enjoyed responsibly, but some are better off abstaining. Even draws comparisons between sports gambling and stock market investing (“totally gambling,” per Craig).

5. Future Predictions

• Integration with Venues:
  • Anticipate the rise of casinos within sports stadiums and arenas—especially in Dallas for the Mavericks.
  • Gordon (joking about the future): "All be sitting in our seats bedding prop betting every single possession and tugging on our weed vapes...with a milking machine..." [50:05]
• Enforcement & Oversight:
  • Policing insider betting is almost impossible short of FBI intervention (as in the current NBA scandal).
  • Ongoing escalation in stakes and blurring of legality.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scandal:
  • Craig: “A coach was arrested. We've never had a head coach in a major sport arrested.” [09:26]
• On Attitudes Shifting:
  • George: “When I was doing play by play, I would get a call at least twice a football season from someone I know who bets on games. And it always made me feel really strange. And I would not give him information.” [12:08]
• On the Appeal of Gambling:
  • George: “It wasn't the money as much as it was winning, you know, and winning a bet...I bet I can do this, and I did it. The money was nice, and it sucked when you lost.” [24:13]
• On the Risk of Chasing Losses:
  • Gordon: “To some people that can't stop chasing the loss and don't know when to cut their losses, it's the sunk cost fallacy.” [41:19]
• On Lottery Players:
  • Gordon: “When it first came to our state, I was playing the lottery and loved that dream. And it was worth it to me to pay that two bucks every week to fantasize the whole week about what I'm gonna do with these sweet winnings.” [45:19]
  • Gordon also recounts a notorious urban legend (confirmed via colleague) about someone forgetting to buy their regular lottery ticket the week their numbers hit. [46:48]
• On the Stock Market:
  • Craig: “I've always made that comparison. It is gambling. And the response I always get from people in the stock market is no, no, no...my response is...you're gambling on that potentially happening.” [44:05]

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:00 – 02:00: Light banter, introductions, and “Letter of the Week.”
• 03:40 – 10:50: NBA gambling scandal breakdown
• 10:50 – 14:45: Shifts in societal and media attitudes toward betting/prop bets rise
• 15:00 – 19:00: Casino sponsorships, European models, moral implications
• 19:00 – 22:00: Michael Jordan gambling story (legend of the "bag man")
• 22:00 – 26:00: Personal gambling experiences; George's golf hustling
• 26:00 – 30:00: "Juice" of gambling vs. competition for its own sake; rise of prop betting
• 30:00 – 36:00: Enforcement, historical perspective, and athlete mentality
• 36:00 – 41:00: Gambling at casinos, horse tracks, limits, and chasing losses
• 41:00 – 44:00: Odds of winning; professional gamblers and their reported "success"
• 44:00 – 46:40: Stock market as a form of gambling; lottery as the "tax on the poor"
• 46:40 – 51:20: Lottery anecdotes; engaging with gambling at a personal/societal level
• 51:20 – 52:38: Final thoughts—fantasy football’s impact, unsolvable layers of the issue, humorous dystopian future predictions

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Tone & Style

As always, The Musers blend light, observational humor with authentic self-reflection. The dialogue alternates between playful ribbing (especially about each host’s betting habits or lack thereof), genuine concern about the state of both sports and society, and a nostalgic look at their own histories.

• Gordon: Irreverent, with left-field what-if jokes and a neurotic eye for detail.
• George: Storytelling, pragmatic, relishes the competitive thrill.
• Craig: Analytical, introspective, and a bit fretful about the game’s integrity and his own risk aversion.

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Bottom Line

This episode offers an insightful, funny, and surprisingly nuanced look at America's growing love affair with gambling—its impact on sports, culture, and the individual psyche. Through stories, statistics, and spirited argument, The Musers outline not only where we've come from but where the intertwining of sports and betting is likely headed…possibly involving beer enemas and vaping at the arena.

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Best enjoyed if you want the real scoop on sports gambling, locker room culture, and the shifting sands of public morality—all delivered with classic Musers' banter.

Transcript

[Gordon Keith]

The Musers, the podcast. It's episode 19. Gambling with Beer enemas.

[George Dunham]

It is the Musers, the podcast, episode 19. I'm George Dunham.

[Craig Miller]

I'm Craig Miller, aka the Splendid Splinter.

[Gordon Keith]

I think that one's taken 19. Who sang that 19 song? What is that?

[George Dunham]

No, no, no. 19.

[Gordon Keith]

What was it?

[George Dunham]

The average age was 19. I can't remember that group from the 80s.

[Gordon Keith]

Is that Falco One Night in Bangkok?

[George Dunham]

No, that wasn't Falco One Night in Bangkok. Just say your name.

[Gordon Keith]

Oh, Gordon.

[George Dunham]

Keith. That's Gordon. And here we go with episode 19. We thought we may have a very special football friend for episode 19. That may be episode like 21 or 22. We had a scheduling quirk. Would you call it? Yeah, yeah. And at some point we will have a very special football friend.

[Gordon Keith]

Very special, very.

[George Dunham]

But today we're going to talk about something that is really grabbing the headlines, and that is gambling. And the big story that hit not too long ago about gambling in professional sports and namely the NBA. But before we go there, how about a letter of the week? Hey, gotta do it.

[Gordon Keith]

You know, we had to did it on them.

[George Dunham]

Oh, we're gonna do it on them. This says Musers. I've been really enjoying the podcast and I especially enjoyed this week when I was listening in the car with my husband. And I have a note for each of you.

[Gordon Keith]

Oh, she's got notes for us.

[George Dunham]

Yes. This is from Elizabeth, who says junior, I kept waiting to hear you mention Rick Steves. You're selling yourself short by not claiming it. Yeah, very true. Why not that? And why not some Barry Switzerland when.

[Gordon Keith]

We were talking about impersonations? Yeah, Junior has an excellent, excellent Rick Steves.

[Craig Miller]

I have a very short list, though, compared to you guys. Yes, I do. Rick Steves. Yes, I do. Bill Parcells. Yes, I do. Rick Golin. And yes, I do. Sal from South Philly.

[George Dunham]

We were robbed of those.

[Craig Miller]

And who was it? The racing car expert?

[George Dunham]

Oh, Cornelius.

[Craig Miller]

Maximilian Cornelius. So I do five.

[Gordon Keith]

Okay. Yeah. Some of those original characters.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

But if you told me a guy does great impersonations and you told me he does Rick Steves and Bill Parcells.

[George Dunham]

I'd want to hear that guy.

[Gordon Keith]

That's. That's the weirdest collection of voices.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

One guy does.

[George Dunham]

I would want to hear that. To me, Elizabeth says, I don't even know who Dick Vital is, but I love. I love to hear his voice, and it makes me laugh out loud every time. Incredible work. Thank you.

[Gordon Keith]

Okay. I still don't know who he is. Who is He.

[George Dunham]

He's a long time. Basketball. You know exactly who he is?

[Gordon Keith]

Not really.

[George Dunham]

This is to Gordo. I couldn't believe no one mentioned your mic impression. Impression from Breaking Bad.

[Craig Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

What you're gonna do is you're gonna turn around, you're gonna walk away.

[George Dunham]

She says that you're most accurate. And it elicits something between a squeal and a cackle. It just hears it.

[Gordon Keith]

He drove me crazy. I liked Mike the Breaking Bad, but it drove me crazy how he would narrate everything that was about to happen. You're gonna get in your car and you're gonna drive as far as you can. He was always telling people what to do.

[Craig Miller]

That really is one of your best, though.

[Gordon Keith]

I don't know about that.

[George Dunham]

We should have broken that out.

[Gordon Keith]

His last name always drove me crazy. Ermin Trout.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, well, we'll have to do that. On Impersonations Part two this week we talk about gambling and the big story that hit the NBA gambling scandal, where a number of former coaches or current coaches and players were a part of 30 people being charged with illegal gambling. And it involves Chauncey Billups, who's the head coach of the Portland Trailblazers. Really wild that the head coach of an NBA team gets arrested. He was charged with illegal poker games, being a part of those with current and former basketball players. And also something along the lines of inside information passing that on to a. A betting network. Terry Rozier of the Miami Heat was involved in betting on basketball in that he also notified the network of betters. Yeah, maybe go against me hitting my personal numbers tonight because I may just leave the game with some sort of unknown injury at the ender. Yeah, bet the under on that one. And former NBA player, current coach Damon Jones, who was also a part of one of these types of stories, and it has rocked the NBA. Congress would like a word with Adam Silver, the commissioner. And there's so many different directions to go here. One of the first questions I had when I heard the story was, how prevalent is this? Let's just take basketball. They're getting picked on now, but we can talk about the other sports as well. This seems like a pretty big operation, but do you just have in your mind that this happens a lot more than we think I do.

[Gordon Keith]

I think it does. I mean, especially with the proliferation of how much easier betting has gotten. You know, there's just prop bets. You make prop bets on everything, it seems like these days.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

So with the inside information part of it, you know, that seems like it's it's, there is a definite big vulnerability there for players to exploit this and can make easy money. Now obviously the news story that came out was a, was even much bigger with the mafia and these high level poker games and all the cheating devices. I mean that, that story got really crazy.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

And overgrown. But you know, there's the illegal betting and then there's the legal betting that also has some, you know, some issues of vulnerability if a player gets in there and starts giving inside information and people can take advantage of that. I just, I hate to hear that athletes would do that. But I guess you're human and you're motivated by those human things of greed and getting an advantage in life. If you have inside information and know which way to bet, that's what people look for.

[George Dunham]

How bad is this going to be for the NBA? Craig, you're a big NBA guy. I almost have a different take. I mean the optics of it are terrible right now. When you have a head coach that's involved not only in player performance on the court, but as Gordo mentioned, these high stakes poker games that are going on with current and former basketball players that are rigged with X ray vision, all sorts of crazy stuff. But I almost think because gambling is everywhere and because our attitudes towards it have, have lightened the last couple of decades, I wonder if this is going to be the PR disaster that everyone thinks it's going to be.

[Craig Miller]

I think it's terrible for the NBA. I think it's going to be an epic disaster. And it's stacked on top of a lot of problems that they're having right now. The NBA is really struggling because of the game. It's a three point shooting contest and fans and even the players have spoken that they don't like it, but that's what it's turned into. And so you've got this league that doesn't have the Jordan Bulls or any dominant team right now. We've had all these different teams winning over the last six, seven years. You've got fans upset that it's just turned into a three point shooting contest. You've already had the league more than any of the other leagues called into question regarding their integrity. Going all the way back to the Patrick Ewing 85 draft lottery, Tim Donaghy and the scandal referee scandal, the referee scandal. And so for a long time, even before this news broke this month in October, people have not trusted the NBA. Well, now this breaks and we don't even know how deep this goes. This may be 30 players deep. This may be 100 players deep. Nobody knows just how deep this is going to go. And. And so you've already got a fan base that's growing disgruntled with the product, has never really trusted the product, and now this. I think this is devastating for the league.

[George Dunham]

It could be, but there's part of me that thinks it's going to have a news cycle of about three weeks or a month, and then the NBA moves on with a new head coach in Portland, a new guard in Miami, and we just kind of go about our business.

[Gordon Keith]

I kind of have that feeling, too. I guess maybe I just have scandal fatigue, and I just assume that the rest of the world does, too.

[Craig Miller]

So that's what the NBA is banking on, that we all have fatigue. Like, we have fatigue for everything. Right. But just think about what you just said there, George. In that setup, a coach was arrested. We've never had a head coach in a major sport arrested.

[George Dunham]

He's going through the morning buffet at the hotel, and all of a sudden he said, what's going on?

[Gordon Keith]

Hands behind his back, plate of scrambled eggs right there.

[Craig Miller]

That makes it unlike any sports story that we had ever seen before, any sports scandal that we ever seen before. Just a head coach being arrested during the season is. That's new territory.

[George Dunham]

But attitudes, as we mentioned a few minutes ago, have really changed. I don't know if you saw that feature on the NFL today. A few weeks back when they were celebrating 50 years of Brent Musburger and the crew, they could not even mention the point spread.

[Craig Miller]

Right.

[George Dunham]

So Jimmy the Greek would come up with intangibles, and he would go down his list of intangibles, and that's how you would know how Jimmy was picking his favorite that day. But it's Everywhere now. Now SportsCenter has Scott Van Pelt doing bad beats. And they tell you what the line is or what the over under is and what happened at the end of the game. And it's like a. There's all these shows on gambling. Who's the. Who's the team to bet? Legal betting in this country last year was up 22%, up to 150 billion. It's big business.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, it's huge business. And it. And it makes the game, the games a lot more interesting for average people. I mean, you know, the guys who are interested in games that they would normally never be interested in. It's got to be good for the league in some sense, right? All this, the. The explosion of legal. Of legal gambling. Yeah. And. And you know, Young men, they love to gamble. This has, like, been a favorite pastime of. Of young men for quite some time now.

[George Dunham]

It was always vilified when we were in our 20s and breaking into the radio business. It was really frowned upon if you ever talked gambling around games and. But I can remember over the last 30 years from. And I know you guys think that I gamble all the time, and I really don't.

[Gordon Keith]

You are our resident gambler.

[George Dunham]

We're going to talk about our attitudes toward action in betting on things.

[Gordon Keith]

Look at him. He looks like he's tweaking right now. The word gambling. He just loves it.

[George Dunham]

But when I was around a team, when I was doing play by play, I would get a call at least twice a football season from someone I know who bets on games. And it always made me feel really strange. And I would not give him information.

[Gordon Keith]

I knew.

[George Dunham]

I knew he was playing, and so I didn't.

[Gordon Keith]

Why not help out your friend?

[George Dunham]

Well, because to me, that was just wrong. It was inside information. And it just. And this is maybe 20 years ago, too, where we didn't have legalized sports betting in, what, 38 states like we do now. I think only Nevada then had legalized sports betting. So it just. It seemed really wrong. But to me, the lines have been blurred. I don't know if I was still doing a team now if I would give out that information. Probably not. But it's just. I don't know. Some of the biggest sponsors for pro and college are.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

Are sports books.

[Craig Miller]

All of the leagues have gotten into bed with gambling companies now because it's so much money. Yeah. And I go back and forth on whether it's good or bad or has no impact. So the New York Times had this story in the wake of this NBA scandal, and they write, as more Americans experience the high cost of gambling, it is starting to lose public support. The Pew Research center reported this month that 43% of Americans now view sports betting as a bad thing for society. Just 7% view it as good. The rest are undecided. The other 50%.

[Gordon Keith]

And so that number has gone up. The disapproval rate has gone up.

[Craig Miller]

They're saying yes in 2022. Just three years ago, 34% of Americans viewed sports betting as bad for society, 8% as good. So today it's gone up to 43% view it as bad. So there is this one school of thought that America is embracing gambling more and more. It'll be legal in every state pretty soon. But then there's research like this that shows that Americans are going the other way, thinking, no, this may not be good for society.

[Gordon Keith]

Well, it's, you know, it's a lot, I guess, kind of like the alcohol discussion. Right. It's something that you can enjoy responsibly, and then there's a certain segment of the population that should just stay away from it.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

You know, that would have a problem with it. But I think if someone shows that they can handle gambling responsibly and well, and I don't have too much of a problem with it. I mean, it's as long as it's their money and they're responsible and it's not. They're hiding stuff from their family and, you know, trying to hide gambling debts and, you know, you know what I'm talking about. It's if you're on your own, no one's depending on you, and it's your money and you're not losing more than you can afford to lose, then there's no issue with me.

[George Dunham]

I think the NBA will eventually get over this hurdle, and I think we're going to get to where we have casinos that are part of our sports.

[Gordon Keith]

Venues, hopefully right here in Dallas.

[George Dunham]

Maybe they've already talked about that as that maybe that could be the future for the Dallas Mavericks. And we already have that in soccer in Europe, don't we?

[Craig Miller]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

So how do they get away with it? And everyone seems. Maybe everyone doesn't seem fine with it over there.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah. I don't know. I do know it's too big to ban gambling. It's too much money. The leagues are getting rich off of it. Some players are getting rich off of it. I'm talking about gamblers, not actual athletes, although it sounds like some of them were getting rich off of it, too. But I go back and forth on whether there's a moral component here that should be policed or legislated. I'm kind of like you, Gordo. If. If this guy wants to take $1,000 or $10,000 or 20 bucks of his personal wealth and that's his fun, okay, fine. Now, if it gets into where you see that guy is taking a TH000 or $10,000 and he doesn't make that much money, now he's having trouble feeding his family, whose responsibility is it to step in and try to fix that guy?

[Gordon Keith]

Right. And that's where it's kind of analogous to alcohol. It's the same thing is you can't make the government say that, ban all alcohol because of these, you know, this group of people. Can't handle it.

[Craig Miller]

Even though we do it with drugs, with a lot of drugs, just not alcohol.

[Gordon Keith]

But we've relaxed on that even in our lifetime, too.

[George Dunham]

Boy, in the participants, so many athletes.

[Gordon Keith]

They love the action because they're competitors.

[George Dunham]

Because their competitors are like, yeah, I can make this shot. I bet you 50 I can make this shit. I won't just pick on basketball, because I think this happens on NFL charters, too, when they're flying back from a destination. There's big money on those poker games, and I don't know if anyone is actually running the house on it, but that's still technically illegal.

[Gordon Keith]

I think it's legal. No, not as long as there's nobody. No house.

[George Dunham]

Taking that, there's not a house. Okay, maybe not.

[Gordon Keith]

It's legal to pay, play poker and gamble.

[George Dunham]

But just talking about the mentality of the players, that that line is blurred with them because they have so much money, they're like, well, yeah, I bet you a thousand bucks I can, you know, make 10, three pointers and 15 seconds or whatever the bet is. And they do that all the time. Where the. The greatest, best basketball player ever, Michael Jordan. How much do you think he has wagered over the years between poker and golf?

[Gordon Keith]

Didn't he release the figure one time of how much he had lost?

[George Dunham]

Because I remember thinking about Phil.

[Gordon Keith]

No, I thought it was Jordan, and we had heard how much he had lost. I do remember that about Phil as well.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

But you do the math and you realize, well, that's a. You know, it's only just a smaller fraction of his net worth or his wealth, and he earned it, so it's. I guess he's his to lose.

[Craig Miller]

You want a Jordan gambling story?

[George Dunham]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Miller]

So this is many, many years ago. We were on a work road trip in California, and our buddy Bob Sturm and I were playing golf. Bob does our special Cowboys episode each week here on the Musers, the podcast with George that drops every Thursday morning. We were playing golf at this course, and we saw Michael Jordan there, and we couldn't believe it, and we didn't want to bug him or get a picture, but we could see him. He was always a couple holes ahead of us, and sometimes we were parallel fairways together.

[Gordon Keith]

And how'd you know it was him?

[Craig Miller]

Well, it was funny. We were driving down to the driving range in our golf cart, and as we get closer, we see this tall guy warming up, and Bob says jokingly, hey, look, it's Michael Jordan playing here today. And we both laugh. And then as we get closer and closer. We're thinking to ourselves, wow, that kind of does look like Jordan. And then when we get down to where the carts were parked, there's a giant Chicago Bulls Nike golf bag with the Air Jordan logo on it, and it said Michael Jordan on his bag. And Bob and I didn't say a thing. We just looked at each other like, oh, my God.

[Gordon Keith]

And he got closer. You saw the Hitler mustache and the bald head.

[George Dunham]

I may have been back during that time period.

[Gordon Keith]

It was during the time when he had that uncomfortable mustache.

[Craig Miller]

He had a cigar going as he was working his driver. And he. We don't say anything to him, but we warmed up next to him for a little bit. Then he got in his golf cart and drove to the tee box. Then we drove up there and watched his group tee off. There were eight of them. So he got to play with an eightsome. And then when it was our turn, we talked to the guy at the first tee, the starter, and said, michael Jordan gets to bring eight guys out here. And he goes, yeah, number one, because he's Michael Jordan, he can do whatever he wants. And two, they play fast. He demands that you play really, really fast. And then we asked, do they put money on this? And the guy said, oh, yeah. Jordan always puts a ton of money on this. In fact, he has a guy in the parking lot that is his bag man, basically. And if he owes you money, at the end of the round, he will tell you to go see his friend in the parking lot who will pay you cash.

[Gordon Keith]

Who opens up the duffel bag.

[Craig Miller]

Opens up the duffel bag. So he comes to the golf course. I don't know with how much. Ten hundred grand? A million? I don't know. But he comes ready to pay his debt because he gambles on every single round he plays.

[George Dunham]

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[Craig Miller]

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[George Dunham]

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[Craig Miller]

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[George Dunham]

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[Craig Miller]

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[George Dunham]

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[Craig Miller]

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[George Dunham]

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[Gordon Keith]

You are bitten by the bug a little bit more than us. And that hey, I just think that certain people just have different makeups, you know, I like some things that you don't. I go into a casino and we do shows at casinos and everything and I'm never tempted to gamble. Like it makes me way too nervous to gamble.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And I'm not a big casino guy. But growing up playing golf and I think I got this from my dad. He had always say, well we need to play for something. Even if it's a nickel, we gotta play for something. And a lot of times we just put the title of world champion on it. But there would always be a nickel or something and he would always, always have if I got beat, hey, pay your 15 cents. So it was very harmless. But then that became a dollar and $2.

[Gordon Keith]

And it taught you the life lesson.

[George Dunham]

Sometimes I'd take time with dad has.

[Gordon Keith]

To have a payout.

[George Dunham]

I collected 20 from my dad. And then when I played with my friends in high school and into college one summer I swear to you I did really well and it almost had a part time job as a golf course hustler. And my hustle was I would team up with my friend from whose daughter's already notified me that they they keep a Todd count. My friend Todd, there's another one really good player, still is. And we were a duo because we were such good friends and he would carry us every day. And you talk about a competitor, he was like Jordan. And we won. I guarantee you 85% of the time. And back in the 80s if you won 20 or 30 bucks here. It wasn't bad twice a week.

[Gordon Keith]

So it was just. You would just bet that you could beat another?

[George Dunham]

Yeah, we would play. We'd play all sorts of games. We would play two guys when you. Two guys best ball trash, when you'd.

[Gordon Keith]

Warm up on the driving range next to the other two guys, where you're always shanking it and everything to make it seem like you're really bad.

[George Dunham]

I wasn't that. I wasn't that big a hustler. I wasn't like Lee Trevino. I could beat you with a Coke bottle. But to me, stories like that, like Lee Trevino saying I could tape up a Coke bottle and beat you, those were legendary to me. And that just felt like, man, that is so awesome. It wasn't the money as much as it was winning, you know, and winning a bet of, hey, I bet I can do this. And I did it. The money was nice, and it sucked when you lost. And all of a sudden, if you played in a group of, like, 12 and you were told you're down 120, it's like, oh, geez, when you're 20 years old, that's a lot of money. But I guarantee that one summer, I had more payouts than pays.

[Gordon Keith]

I wonder if the difference is like, to me, the losing hurts more than the winning feels good.

[Craig Miller]

Yes, that's what they all say.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

And Giorgio, I guess the winning feels so much better than the losses hurt.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And you quickly forget about, all right, we lost 50, but we're going to bounce back tomorrow. And a lot of times we would until we played a guy who was eventually on the PGA Tour and he shot 59. And Todd kept doubling the bed. And we lost a lot of money that day. But those days were few and far between. And just the thrill of, okay, we're down 40. I mean, there was times where we were down and we would come back and win, and those were legendary because Todd was so amazing. He'd birdie three out of the last four holes, and we didn't lose, mainly because of his greatness and competitiveness there.

[Craig Miller]

You mentioned Todd again, there's another mention.

[George Dunham]

But it wasn't me. You know, I mean, I'd occasionally chip in and make a birdie and help us win. But I do understand that part of it of, hey, let's play for something. You know, we've had stupid bets up here. Hey, I bet I can do that. And if I do, it's 10 bucks, you know, or whatever. See?

[Craig Miller]

And that's weird to me because I've never needed that juice to make a game or anything I was competing in. Exciting, like the competition itself.

[George Dunham]

That's enough.

[Craig Miller]

Has always been enough, and the games have always been interesting enough. And I'm a scared gambler. I do not like gambling. I have to pick NFL games each week for the Dallas Morning News. I'm our radio station's representative. And I hate that because it makes me nervous every week. And I don't have any money on the line. All I've got is pride on the line, professional pride, but that's enough. If I had money on the line, that would be. I couldn't make it through a weekend if I knew I was losing 100 bucks or 500 bucks on a game. So I don't understand that world. I know it's a part of mine, but I don't understand that world because to me, the games are interesting enough without the juice. If I'm playing pickup basketball or my own round of golf, it's interesting enough to me to see if I can break 90 or break 80 or whatever I'm trying to do in anything that I'm participating in. That's all the motivation I need. So I don't understand the extra layer.

[Gordon Keith]

I think it's just we're in a kick it up a notch society. I mean, we always make things have to make them more interesting and make our nachos spicier. So you got to make each game spicier and adding a little action on it, then that makes it a little bit more.

[George Dunham]

And that attitude's been around. I mean, that old saying's probably from the 40s, let's make this a little more interesting and, you know, put this on it or something like that. You mentioned prop bets earlier, Gordo, and that's something about this.

[Gordon Keith]

That's. That to me is what's really interesting is I do think we are going to get to the point where NBA teams and gambling, legal gambling operations run hand in hand, and everyone will sit there in the stands with the game going on right in front of them. Just prop betting every single possession.

[Craig Miller]

It's happening right now.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, you can do it right now.

[Craig Miller]

Oh, really?

[Gordon Keith]

Well, there you go.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

Welcome to the future.

[George Dunham]

And. And. And that has changed. Just my view of it. My view of it has always been, okay, this guy is tanking this and it's affecting his team. You could easily still win the game, but that guy could make sure that he had more than five turnovers in a game or he didn't score more than 10 points. And it.

[Gordon Keith]

And how can a league police that?

[George Dunham]

I. I don't. I don't think you can unless you see the evidence of, hmm, he didn't score 10 points and he averages 20 a game. And there was a lot of action on the under for this game. And it's not. It doesn't even have to be a bunch. It could just be, I'm gonna take the under and he scores 19 instead of 21. And unless, to answer your question, unless there's a lot of action on that, I don't think the league would ever know.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah, the only way to police it is how the FBI just policed this latest NBA story. And that is you. You plant some moles, you investigate, you dig deep, you. You see some smoke and you think there's fire. But other than that. But the league, in terms of, you know, putting down rules, they're allowing their athletes to bet on sports, which. Right there. That's already a slippery slope.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Craig Miller]

You know, they say you can't bet on your own sport, but they're allowing you to bet on sports. And some can bet on other games in their sport. And just the whole thing is. It's very, very sticky and it's very hard to police because they want to be in bed with all of these casinos and gambling companies because it's brought untold billions into their league.

[Gordon Keith]

But has it increased? To me, the final thing ought to be, is it bringing more people to the game? Like, what is the benefit? Is there benefit outside of just money for the NBA franchises? And is it increasing viewers?

[George Dunham]

Viewership?

[Craig Miller]

I think so, yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

And interest in the game to younger people?

[Craig Miller]

For sure. In the NCAA basketball tournament, that's. That's the one of sports event that we know that without gambling and just the office bracket pool, interest would be a lot less. But yes, to all the sports.

[George Dunham]

They say that 68 million put something on the NCAA tournament, and basically you pick the bracket for whoever was running that. Hey, pick the perfect bracket and you win this. 68 million people. They're not getting that during the regular season of, you know, Duke versus North Carolina.

[Craig Miller]

Right.

[George Dunham]

On a Saturday afternoon. But get to the tournament and all of a sudden everyone has an interest, both legally and then just on the side of, okay, here's the office pool, here's your family pool. Yeah. In that regards, in that regard, I think it is increasing the attention for the NBA. Yeah. To a certain degree. Or Major League Baseball or the NFL. Yeah. I think it has. I think it has raised the interest level, the fact that you can make so many different bets and sometimes it's just an over under, sometimes it's, yeah, who is going to win by the point spread. And it's like I said, it's everywhere now. And in a relatively short amount of time, too. I'm trying to mark, has this been all in 10 years?

[Craig Miller]

I think so.

[George Dunham]

Of bringing in sports books to where they can sponsor in the different professional sports? It's in a very short amount of time, yeah.

[Craig Miller]

And it made me think, this latest NBA scandal, how many games that we have watched over a long time have been impacted by. By somebody doing something nefarious. And we had no idea. We just couldn't believe that crazy ending. But it was really something going on behind the scenes. How many players are betting on their game or their sport? We know they're betting on other sports, but you see these little stories, like the John Matier story from the off season where looked like he was maybe betting on some Pac 10, Pac 12 games, you know, a lot of times nothing comes from it. But again, you see that smoke and I just, I wonder how deep this runs. And this has been going on for over 100 years in American sports. The Black Sox scandal, You know, we have gambling going on in sports and these are just the stories that we know about. Is it times 100 or times a thousand of the stories we don't know about or are we hearing the only ones that happen?

[Gordon Keith]

I wonder how did they find out like the, the billup stuff that was part of poker games.

[George Dunham]

Right.

[Gordon Keith]

His in particular was poker games, but.

[George Dunham]

His was also connected with being a coach, giving inside information as to who was going to play.

[Gordon Keith]

Oh, I see.

[George Dunham]

And, and I was going to ask this.

[Gordon Keith]

Both are all allegedly.

[George Dunham]

Allegedly.

[Craig Miller]

Right.

[George Dunham]

Let's say he did do this. To me, the most nefarious is having those poker games with known mobsters.

[Craig Miller]

It's crazy.

[George Dunham]

I mean, that is. If that is true, then that lends itself to, hey, that didn't work out the way we thought it was. What about this?

[Gordon Keith]

You can help us out.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

You can owe us a bit on these poker games. You can help us out in another way.

[George Dunham]

Boy, these were high stakes, millions of dollars.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

Some of those guys and some of those setups, they, they took some rich guys and they would take millions of dollars, allegedly from them. That's just amazing that you're playing a poker hand or hands of poker and someone's going to walk out of their.

[Gordon Keith]

$2 million in debt and you're inviting your Friends to play. You're inviting your other wealthy athletes. Athlete friends. Athlete friends. I have athlete friends. Yeah. And then they find out that you're part of the operation that was cheating them out of money.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And I wonder. I think it does get bad for the NBA if there's more of this. If this is just the surface level, then we have another investigation of another player, coach, or team that maybe some come out of the woodwork now and say, well, yeah, that also happened to me. Or the same thing was happening with this team. If it starts. If the dominoes start following falling, then I think it could be really bad for the NBA in the next couple of years.

[Craig Miller]

And you guys might be right that the outrage cycle will leave this behind after a week or two. But I just think it's the vulnerability of the league right now is why this puts them in a little bit of peril. You know, stuff comes out about the NFL, but we all agree the NFL is a monster that apparently can't be hurt right now. So they seem to outlive anything that causes outrage. But the NBA is on shaky ground right now. They had some really good TV numbers for their opening week on NBC, so there is some health here. But they're also on shaky ground because of the state of the game. And so that's why I think that this could snowball in the wrong direction for them.

[George Dunham]

There's a lot of action on those first couple of games.

[Craig Miller]

That's why.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, but I got the over on.

[Craig Miller]

Luca, and there's no doubt that gamble gambling generates interest in the sport. There's no doubt. I don't do that, and I don't see why. The games are interesting enough for me. But there's no doubt that it brings more people to the games, to the TV sets, to their phones, to the gambling apps. And the leagues know that, and they're making tons of money off of it.

[Gordon Keith]

So what are the cheating scandals that have hit the NFL? I mean, here you've mentioned three or so with the NBA.

[George Dunham]

It always seems like it's point shaving and basketball. It's betting on teams. And I guarantee you there's been football related. Arch Schleester.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[George Dunham]

And that was after he left Ohio State and was in the NFL. And there was. But, you know, that story quickly went away, too. I can't bring one up from the NFL.

[Craig Miller]

Baseball and basketball is where we have most of it.

[George Dunham]

Right? Yeah. Okay. And here's the other part that is just fun. And I've only I promise you, I've only done this a couple of times.

[Gordon Keith]

But I wouldn't mind for about to hear something.

[George Dunham]

I wouldn't mind doing it again someday with some friends. Go to Vegas or wherever this is legal and sit in the gaming room, make your bets and then just watch basketball all day or watch football all day and all of a sudden you're screaming at the TV for the guy to stop at the 5 yard line or whatever it is. But I'm sorry, that is, I get the appeal of that.

[Gordon Keith]

I do. I do too.

[George Dunham]

And I've done that a couple of times and it's been fun. Or if you can hit the five team parlay and all of a sudden you know you get eight times the amount of what you bet.

[Gordon Keith]

That sounds fun to me.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

I wouldn't want to do it personally. I don't want to sit and watch sports all day, but.

[George Dunham]

Right.

[Gordon Keith]

But yeah, I can see how someone like you, it'd be great. You're with your buddies, you're laughing, it's a whole day, you're watching sports all day. It's just fun and exciting.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. Or you make your picks. And I can see why the NCAA tournament has taken off. And I've known some people who have done this, they go to Vegas every March and they sit around and they watch the games. That looks like fun to me, even if I only had 10 bucks riding on it, just to see the reaction.

[Gordon Keith]

Of the room and all the trash.

[George Dunham]

Cussing at the number one seed that gets knocked out. I just, I get that.

[Craig Miller]

I'm trying to think of my gambling experiences in person. And I went to Vegas once for a long weekend and I sat down at a blackjack table and. First time I'd ever played any kind of a game in person in Vegas. And I remember the guy next to me after the first hand, he said, let me show you how to play. Because he could tell I didn't know what I was doing. And that was ruining the experience for the other people at the table. So he started telling me what I should do, what I need to hit on, when I need to stay. And I ended up, I took like 100 bucks to that table and I walked away with 250 because of this guy. And I thought, wow, this is great.

[George Dunham]

It was a good feeling.

[Gordon Keith]

London, this is the easiest job I've ever had and.

[Craig Miller]

But I stopped it there. And I didn't play anything else. I played some slots. I think that was one good feeling. Been to the horse race track a few times. Always Lose big there always. And it's not fun to me. Like, it's kind of fun to think you've got a pick and you put it on that horse, but then the horse gets beaten by 20 lengths or something. And then afterwards you're like, why did I put 40 bucks on that? I just threw that away. And then going back to my childhood, I remember like you, George, your dad would offer a bet here and there, a nickel or a dime bet. The only time my dad ever offered to bet me on anything was the Washington, Miami Super Bowl, 73.

[George Dunham]

Was it 147 with the perfect dolphins. Yeah. 72 season.

[Gordon Keith]

And he does.

[Craig Miller]

And he took Washington because he used to live there.

[George Dunham]

Okay.

[Craig Miller]

And I happily took Miami because they were undefeated.

[George Dunham]

Did your dad know they were undefeated at the time?

[Craig Miller]

I think he did.

[George Dunham]

Okay.

[Craig Miller]

And he said, let's put a quarter on this. And that was a lot in 1973.

[Gordon Keith]

It's worth like a dollar now.

[Craig Miller]

Right. And I won the quarter, and then we never bet on anything ever again. But that didn't give me that feeling of, wow, this is easy money. You know, I need to build off of that. I need to go from there. But other than those few moments, I don't think I've done a whole lot of gambling in person.

[George Dunham]

Does it make you feel better that when I do, and I rarely go and play blackjack or poker or anything like that, but when I do, I have a limit and it's usually 200 bucks. And once I lose the 200 bucks, I don't go back.

[Craig Miller]

That's healthy.

[George Dunham]

And get more.

[Gordon Keith]

You don't chase your losses.

[George Dunham]

I really don't know. I do not. And for the person thinks, oh, man, what a waste of money. He just spent 200 bucks. Well, if you go to an amusement park, what are you dropping?

[Gordon Keith]

Right.

[George Dunham]

So it's the same kind of thing. If you were entertained by that, go.

[Craig Miller]

Play around the golf.

[George Dunham]

Go play around to golf. Yeah. If it's a really nice course, you're going to drop, you know, 500 bucks and you at least have the possibility that dream for five minutes. Or to me, it's kind of fun to sit at the blackjack table. And even if you break even, they bring you some cold drinks and you get to talk to people and you play for a couple hours.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, yeah. Playing cards, it's always the man. I'm down. I was up $700 and now I'm down 200. I can't quit now.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, I know it's going to turn around at some Point.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, you do. I mean, you've been on this losing streak here. You're due for your fortune to change. And that kind of thinking is always what gets you.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

To some people that can't stop chasing the loss and don't know when to cut their losses, it's the sunk cost fallacy. You know, I mean, it's like they just. If I keep throwing money at this, then it'll turn around for me.

[Craig Miller]

What percentage of gamblers do you think really win? Because there's the old saying, the reason the buildings are so big and lavish in Vegas is because most of the gamblers lose. The house most of the time wins. So what do you think that percentage really is?

[George Dunham]

It's got to be less than 5% that, that low. Yeah, I think so. That actually, that actually win consistently. And those guys who come on say hey, nothing, always impersonate them on our station picks. But hey, nothing but winners this week. Yeah. Did go 100 this week.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah, you did.

[George Dunham]

Okay, so maybe. No, but I think it's very small. I knew playing golf growing up, once I got to high school and college, I knew guys and I think that's all they did. I think they dabbled in business a little bit, but they bet basically for a living, man. And some seem to be doing okay. But I wondered about them, like, what if it went south form where they owe the wrong guy money and, and.

[Gordon Keith]

Just how truthful are their reports of winnings? I always think people exaggerate how much they win or they only tell you about their wins and they don't tell you about the losses.

[Craig Miller]

Right.

[Gordon Keith]

They'll tell you about a good weekend, but they don't really talk about the bad weekend they just had. They're just in a bad mood.

[George Dunham]

Remember in the early days of our radio show, we would have a guy that said he made a living gambling. He'd call us up with tips and tell us to rub some dirt in it and take a laugh. And he claimed that he, he made money and made a living just betting.

[Gordon Keith]

Well, there's professional poker players.

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Gordon Keith]

Make money.

[George Dunham]

So they have to win. Yeah, they have to win those tournaments.

[Gordon Keith]

We've always heard poker and blackjack or one of the few games. A couple of the few games that you can play where you actually have.

[George Dunham]

A little bit of control.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, but then again, I think, you know, stock market to me seems like a gamble too.

[Craig Miller]

Totally.

[Gordon Keith]

Every time I've gone out of my comfort zone and treated that like a casino, hey, let me give you A stock tip, you got to buy so and so, buy so and so. And it goes up a little bit and then it completely bottoms out. And then I'm an idiot. That's why. That's part of the way that I learned that I'm not a gambler. Just give me an index fund and where I don't have to think about it because I just get so upset if I ever lose a bunch of money on this friend of mine that made me lose 500 bucks on some stupid stock that he had heard about on some forum.

[Craig Miller]

I agree with you. I've always made that comparison. It is gambling. And the response I always get from people in the stock market is no, no, no, no. We're looking into these companies. We do our due diligence, we look at their cost basis and their price per earnings and whatever all the other mumbo jumbo. And my response to that is always, well, yeah, that company may look like it's on solid ground. And then one night their CEO goes on a bender and is in a drunk driving accident and kills someone and is removed from. You're gambling on that potentially happening. And then their stock plummets. And so it is, it is risky. The sports gambler, though, will tell you the same thing that the stock market guy says.

[Gordon Keith]

I know this team.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah, I know this team. I know these tendencies. Look at this chart I have. I know exactly what they're going to do.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, it's very similar to trends that you see in football or basketball. How do you feel about the person that is in the convenience store with you? And if you go to that same store during the week, that person is always buying five or six lottery tickets.

[Gordon Keith]

I know, I know.

[George Dunham]

At least they have the chance.

[Gordon Keith]

I used to play the lottery.

[Craig Miller]

I did too.

[Gordon Keith]

When it first came to our state, I was playing the lottery and loved that dream. And it was worth it to me to pay that two bucks every week to fantasize the whole week about what I'm gonna do with these sweet winnings.

[Craig Miller]

Me too.

[Gordon Keith]

Of course, I never won.

[George Dunham]

How do you think you netted out on that? You win at least some $2.

[Gordon Keith]

I justified it once again, which is the. The dream was worth the price to me. You know, it was entertaining, but it also was a source of low key stress for me because there were times where it was like, oh crap, the drawing is in an hour and I forgot to get my ticket this week. I gotta run down and get it. This was gonna be a week and this is gonna. And then there would Be weeks that I'd forget to play it. And then I was like. And then of course I wouldn't have won anyway because I used regular numbers that I played all the time. And I didn't win anyway, but I risked it and I. Okay, I didn't lose. I didn't lose, but it could have happened this week. And I. It just tormented me that I failed to get my ticket and my numbers could have come up, but even though they didn't, I can't let this happen again.

[George Dunham]

And they really played on your emotions too, didn't they? With you can't win if you don't play.

[Craig Miller]

Right?

[Gordon Keith]

Right.

[George Dunham]

How else are you going to win?

[Gordon Keith]

That's right. You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. And we heard that Michael Scott said that.

[George Dunham]

And we heard that terrible story of a guy who played the same numbers every week.

[Craig Miller]

It's the worst.

[Gordon Keith]

Okay, we confirmed that story.

[Craig Miller]

Yes, yes, we have. Yes.

[Gordon Keith]

Okay, so this, the story was that a guy that used to work up at our company played the same numbers every week with his wife for the lottery. And they're watching the lottery drawing on Wednesday night, or she was, and then.

[George Dunham]

He got home is the way I heard it.

[Gordon Keith]

Okay, that's the way you heard it. She watches it. Their regular numbers were the lottery numbers that were drawn and they won millions and millions and millions of dollars. She's freaking out, so excited. He gets home, she runs, jumps in his arms, white face, dudes, I can't believe this and everything. And then of course, his face drops and he tells her that he forgot to buy the ticket on the way home.

[George Dunham]

Oh, gosh.

[Gordon Keith]

And that supposedly is a true story, right? We know the guy.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. So the lesson there is don't play the same numbers because you'll have to play them for the rest of your life.

[Gordon Keith]

That's what I felt when I was playing the same numbers. When was I going to quit? I felt so nervous to quit because what if my numbers came up?

[George Dunham]

That's a two dollar investment you'd have to make every week or whatever you buy.

[Gordon Keith]

And I did the other gag of I found out what numbers Craig was playing all the time.

[Craig Miller]

This is so sorry.

[George Dunham]

It is sorry.

[Gordon Keith]

Why is that sorry?

[George Dunham]

Because those numbers were special to him and he chose them for a very special reason.

[Gordon Keith]

So every week I would go out and buy a lottery ticket with the exact same numbers to where he was always going to have to split his winnings with me.

[George Dunham]

Why are you always trying to get a baseball bat into Somebody's spokes did.

[Gordon Keith]

It to honor him.

[George Dunham]

To honor him.

[Craig Miller]

Back to your original question. When I see somebody at a convenience store and they appeared, I know I shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but they appear. They appear to be down on their luck and they are buying 10 or 20 scratch off tickets. I feel bad for that person. Now, you could spin it as this is the way their 20 bucks gives them that thrill and enjoyment. The thrill of scratching off is their entertainment for the week. It's like spending 20 bucks at a movie. Okay. But I also have always kind of agreed with the lottery being a tax on the poor. And it's their easy way to millions and they're spending who knows how much money that they can't afford on that. And that. It's always made me uneasy, but I.

[Gordon Keith]

Think of how many people have looked at me in the convenience store and thought that exact same thing, right?

[George Dunham]

If you saw Gordo, you'd think he's not doing very well, which is that.

[Gordon Keith]

Every one of Yalls friends has judged me harshly because of my cover. Yeah, that's Gordon.

[George Dunham]

You know what I say? Hey, take that same $10 and bet the over on Cardinals Cowboys. You seen Dallas's defense?

[Gordon Keith]

And I always say, hey, take that $10 and invest in this company that I heard about on Discord.

[George Dunham]

Can't miss. So, okay, 10, 15 years from now, do you think we will see the arena slash casino for NBA teams and the casino slash stadium for NFL and major league baseball teams?

[Craig Miller]

Yes.

[George Dunham]

Yes. I do too. I don't think you can hold it back. Yeah, I think we're just going that way. And.

[Gordon Keith]

And I think we'll all be sitting in our seats bedding prop betting every single possession and tugging on our weed vapes the whole time with a milking machine hooked up to our penis, just giving us a constant tube hooked up.

[George Dunham]

To her mouth, just feeding this beer.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, Hot dog all getting beer enemas at all times.

[Craig Miller]

Country will be going to hell in a handbasket. But in that moment, we'll feel great, we'll feel awesome.

[Gordon Keith]

We'll feel like we're the king of the world.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And I like what you said earlier, Craig, about just the game was enough. The competition was enough. And while I do understand and like the juice, the game to me is enough to watch Monday Night Football. And it almost ruins it for me if I have interest in it. Like, okay, this team has to win or I lose my weekly football picks. I'm going to fall five games behind you or something. Like that.

[Craig Miller]

And it's why you and I stopped playing fantasy football.

[George Dunham]

That's right.

[Craig Miller]

30 years ago. Because it was ruining the games. I was watching a random Vikings game and I was pissed that Herschel walker didn't get 60 yards that night. And then I finally, I sat back and said, why are you ruining this experience? It was a good game. Yeah, but you hated it because Herschel Walker you have on your team, and he didn't get to 60 yards.

[George Dunham]

I know. My kids used to drive me crazy with that. Screaming at the TV over some random game. You don't like the Eagles.

[Craig Miller]

Yeah, but that's my guy.

[George Dunham]

That's my running back. And they.

[Gordon Keith]

That's what makes it. Fantasy football has been great for the NFL.

[George Dunham]

Oh, it's been huge. And now you have fantasy football shows that are sponsored and does really well. All right. Well, I. I guess we solved some problems, or at least we made some predictions of what's going to happen.

[Gordon Keith]

But we talked about problems.

[George Dunham]

We did.

[Gordon Keith]

Which, if we talked in a relationship with a woman, you know, that's important. So never solve anything. Just talk about all the time.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And maybe you can come up with something.

[Craig Miller]

By the way, tell me when somebody solves any of this, because this is such a massive issue and it goes so deep, so many layers.

[George Dunham]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Miller]

That it seems unsolvable. Like a lot of things in our world to where the answer is just give in.

[Gordon Keith]

Yeah, just give in.

[George Dunham]

Just give in.

[Gordon Keith]

Just give me my. Give my weed pen, get the tube.

[George Dunham]

Hooked up and just bet on whatever you want to bet on.

[Gordon Keith]

Just a tube of popcorn butter, Right. My mouth.

[Craig Miller]

Nothing matters anymore.

[Gordon Keith]

All I want to eat is birthday cake right now.

[George Dunham]

Well, thanks to our producer, Peter Welton and we will talk to you again next week on the Musers the podcast.

[Gordon Keith]

If you'd like to reach out to the Musers and maybe have it read.

[George Dunham]

As a letter of the week, you.

[Gordon Keith]

Can do [e-mail] or press the link in the show notes for a whole list of places to find. Or contact Junior Jub and Gordo.

[George Dunham]

Thanks for listening as always.

[Gordon Keith]

The Musers, the podcast is a tired head production.

[George Dunham]

Start your day with America in the morning.

[Craig Miller]

I'm John Trout, your host from breaking news.

[Gordon Keith]

The U.S. supreme Court with rulings shifting gears, Apple has released the new iPhone.

[George Dunham]

Here's the Wednesday business report.

[Gordon Keith]

Far from a seller's market to politics. Politics and entertainment moving into scary movie season.

[George Dunham]

So why not another conjuring movie Shifting gears. Howard Ball Jackpot is now the third.

[Gordon Keith]

Largest ever in history. Live long and prosper.

[George Dunham]

America in the morning Fresh each day Follow and listen on your favorite platform.