Sign of the Times - Episode 15

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Musers The Podcast – Episode 15: "Sign of the Times"

Date: October 1, 2025
Hosts: George Dunham, Craig “Junior” Miller, Gordon Keith
Duration: ~57 minutes
Theme: Reflections on anxiety, division, and hope in today’s world, as seen through the Musers’ blend of humor, personal stories, and historical perspective.

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Overview

This episode, titled "Sign of the Times," features The Musers as they grapple with whether the present era is uniquely fraught—or just another moment in the long cycle of modern anxiety. Eschewing politics but not the world's harder edges, the trio explores recurring fears throughout U.S. history, the impact of technology and social media, the nature of social division, and the challenge of finding hope amid bad news. Through stories, both absurd and poignant, the Musers share honest insights and signature wit about living in "crazy times."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sleep, Superstitions, and Bad Luck: The Bullwinkle Deer Head

• (00:35–08:15) The Musers begin with exhausted banter about sleep, segueing into a listener letter on superstitions. George and Craig then recount the saga of "Bullwinkle"—a deer head that, after being carted to a football game, seemed to bring bad luck to every team whose hat it wore, and was ultimately blamed for several calamities, including a major earthquake.
  • Notable Moment: The legend of Bullwinkle humorously illustrates how humans try to find patterns and explanations in chaos—underscoring skepticism about superstitions.
  • Craig, on Bullwinkle's bad luck (08:02): “Cursed the Cowboys, Maulers, Vikings and earthquake in Mexico.”
  • Gordon, unfazed (08:11): “I am very unfazed by this, man.”

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2. Are Things Worse Now—or Just Louder? The Historical Cycle of Fear

• (09:01–12:41) George introduces headlines of violence from the 1960s–70s, questioning if today is truly more tumultuous. The group discusses the cyclical nature of fear and division in American history, citing the civil war, the 1960s, and today.
  • Gordon, on the 1960s (10:28): “The 60s still take the cake as far as civil unrest...more craziness...had people questioning the fabric of our culture than even now.”
  • Craig, expanding to the 1860s (11:37): “We’ve never been more divided than the 1860s when we were fighting each other. Bloody battlefields.”
  • They agree that while the present feels tense, the social fabric has been under siege before—and arguably worse.

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3. The Social Media Accelerator

• (13:05–15:18) The Musers delve into how social media magnifies fear, discord, and misinformation, making problems seem worse than they are. The hosts discuss their own changing relationships with consuming news.
  • Craig (15:18): “I was poisoning myself…overwhelmed with so much bad news and so much suffering and bloodshed that it starts to get to you.”
  • Gordon (14:29): “If you spend a lot of time scrolling through… reading the gas fire that is taking place… I don’t think that is good for anybody.”

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4. Local vs. National: Where Does Real Change Happen?

• (17:33–18:50) The show highlights the importance of engaging in local civic matters versus national "soap opera" politics, lamenting that municipal issues lack drama but have the biggest impact.
  • Gordon (18:01): “It’s probably the most important. But it’s not as fun.”

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5. Modern Fears: Corruption, Crime, AI, Nuclear War

• (19:04–20:43) The hosts discuss survey data on top American fears: corrupt politicians, followed by war, inflation, and technological threats. There’s skepticism about whether these threats are truly worsening or just noisier.
  • George (19:04): “Number one fear of Americans was government—corrupt politicians or government officials.”

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6. The 10% Who Shout, The 90% Who Sigh

• (22:38–24:38) The Musers dissect how online discourse is dominated by fringe voices, while the vast middle majority are disengaged.
  • Craig (23:33): “But they control 90% of THE conversation and the 90% of Americans in the middle… don’t want to hear any of the noise.”
  • George (24:03): “Well, they need to get involved. They need to get more engaged.”

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7. The Power of Comments: Human Nature with a Megaphone

• (26:26–29:06) After recounting a story of a bereaved person reading online comments, the hosts lament how digital communication amplifies humanity’s worst impulses.
  • Gordon (27:32): “It started at the beginning of time… now we all do. Now all of our private thoughts are public and we’ve lost the judgment as to whether we wanted to say this out loud in a crowded room because the crowded room is always safe now.”

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8. Optimism and Pessimism Through Generations

• (47:35–54:15) The hosts unpack whether they're hopeful or despairing about the future.
  • George (47:35): “Are you an optimistic person or pessimistic as you get older?”
  • Craig (48:24): “I’ve always been a pessimist until recently… short term I’m very optimistic and long term I’m still pretty pessimistic.”
  • Gordon (49:35): “I think that the early part of our demise is going to be very exciting and fun… as far as humans, I think that we were… the apes in the chain here.”

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9. Hope, Technology, and The Next Generation

• (53:38–55:28) Amid worries about AI, climate, and the future, the Musers reflect on intergenerational hope and what they see in the world through their children’s eyes.
  • Craig (50:56): “She’s made me more optimistic about humanity short term… but I am really worried about what kind of world she will be living in.”

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10. Laughing Through It: Funyuns as Hope

• (55:48–56:11) The episode closes with humor, even as they admit they can’t solve the world's problems—but find solace in Funyuns.
  • Gordon (56:11): “Funyuns gives me hope.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On repetition of history:
  George (09:01): “Some of our headlines repeat themselves from years ago and decades ago, centuries ago.”
• On the real vs. virtual world:
  Gordon (14:29): “We get to choose our reality online too… We faction up even more.”
• On optimism versus realism:
  George (47:35): “I’m 58% optimistic as opposed to 78 or 79.”
• On generational improvement:
  George (53:58): “This next generation… I’ve seen a lot of good from them in acceptance, and I think they handle things better than our generation did. In some ways.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:35–08:15 – Bullwinkle: The deer head of doom (bad luck story)
• 09:01–12:41 – Comparing unrest: Today vs. the 1960s and 1860s
• 13:05–15:18 – Social media: Amplifying anxieties & news fatigue
• 17:33–18:50 – Importance of local politics
• 22:38–24:38 – The divided attention economy: The 10% vs. the 90%
• 26:26–29:06 – The poison of comments and public vitriol
• 36:29–42:15 – Nuclear war, digital threats, and AI
• 47:35–54:15 – Personal optimism, pessimism, and hope for the future
• 55:48–56:11 – The Funyuns moment: Finding hope and humor

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Conclusion

In “Sign of the Times,” The Musers deftly blend wit, warmth, and hard questioning, illustrating that today’s anxieties are both unique and familiar. From the power of online negativity to the hope they find in everyday people (and Funyuns), the hosts contend that while the world’s division feels overwhelming, most people simply want a good life for themselves and their children. The episode closes on the note that focusing on community and the good in people—real, not virtual—may be the best antidote to the malaise of "the times."

Transcript

[Gordon]

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[George]

Okay, you guys ready to do this? Another week of podcasting.

[Gordon]

Yeah. I've slept for three days straight. Just have enough energy to podcast.

[George]

What is the longest you've ever slept from start to finish?

[Gordon]

Probably 12 hours. I'm not a long, long sleeper. I know some people who slept for a full 18 hours regularly in college.

[George]

I swear, Craig could sleep close to that.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think I did that a time or two. I don't know, about 18, but probably 15 or 16.

[George]

Well, I've only had 30 minutes, so let's see how this goes today.

[Gordon]

Well, you've only had 30 minutes of sleep.

[George]

No, a couple hours. A late cowboy game and a big family event. And yeah, I felt pretty much this morning like I haven't slept in a week. So this ought to be good.

[Gordon]

It will be good, George.

[George]

Don't worry.

[Gordon]

It's the Musers, the podcast, episode 15. Sign of the times.

[George]

It's the Musers, the podcast, episode 15. I am George.

[Craig]

I am Craig.

[Gordon]

I'm gonna be Gordon.

[George]

Okay, all three, we did roll call, and we are ready to roll. Last week we talked about superstitions. And in our letter of the week, we hear from Teresa, who writes, hello, Musers. After listening to the superstitions episode, I write to you and tell you that I am the sixth child born in our family of nine. Wow, that's a bunch. Jeez. I was born on the sixth day of the sixth month.

[Craig]

Uh, oh.

[George]

And I've always been a very lucky person. And 13 is my favorite number.

[Gordon]

See there.

[Craig]

Wow.

[George]

So she has fought through.

[Gordon]

Didn't I tell you that superstitions were bs? And she proves it. There's living proof.

[George]

Okay.

[Gordon]

Did she include a picture?

[George]

You are. No, you are probably right. But Craig and I forgot to tell you the story of Bullwinkle. And maybe this will change your mind.

[Gordon]

Doubt it.

[George]

So we had an apartment together and with our two roommates in college. And when we were moving in, we were getting random furniture from family and I said, hey, my brother in law has an old deer head and he doesn't want it anymore. He's going to throw it out. You want to put that over. We had a fireplace. You want to put that over the fireplace? And everyone's saying, yeah, that's great. So we said, okay, well I'll, I'll bring it and we'll hang it up. Well, we didn't hang it just yet. And Craig and I actually went to the Dallas Cowboys opener at Texas Stadium. That's how long ago this was. And on the way down, we got big laughs because Craig was in the passenger seat of my 1977 Ford Fairmont. And as we would pass people, he would make the deer head raise up and he had like, he was an eight point and he would look around and we got a lot of laughs and we thought it was hilarious.

[Craig]

Yeah, like George and I would be staring straight ahead at the road and I'd turn the deer head sideways to look at the car passing us.

[Gordon]

So he was like sitting in your lap or something. Okay, gotcha.

[George]

Real funny comedy. And I think we had him in the back seat at one point. Like, you know, he was the passenger also going to the Cowboys game.

[Craig]

People around us loved it.

[George]

Oh, they loved it. We loved it. We laughed all the way to the cowboy game. And then we said, well, we probably should put it in the trunk because, I mean, gosh, this is so valuable. We can't just leave it in the back seat. So we put it in my trunk and as I shut the trunk, my keys were still in the trunk. I said, well, let's not worry about it right now. Let's just go watch the game and we'll figure out a way to break into my car. And we were trying. We couldn't get the. Then we tried to go through the door and then through the back seat, but we never could even get my door open. So I had to call my dad. This was before cell phones. We had to walk back to Texas stadium and call my dad at like midnight for the extra set of keys. And they lived in farmer's branch and he had to drive down and he had to ask us the question, well, how'd this happen? Well, we had a deer head. Robert, my brother in law, gave it to me and, you know, we were showing the deer to people having laughs. And I locked it in the trunk and I locked my keys in.

[Craig]

At this point, we didn't know Bullwinkle was bad luck. No, we just thought this was.

[Gordon]

You thought he was good luck. For comedy, maybe.

[George]

Yeah. And that was just, you know, stupidity on my part for locking my keys in my trunk. So back we go to Denton and we hang him up over the fireplace. Well, it was a big win for the Cowboys. They opened with a win over Washington on Joe Theisman's birthday. So we put a Dallas Cowboys hat on him.

[Gordon]

They were playing the Commanders way back then.

[George]

Yes. They were playing Washington way back then.

[Gordon]

Yes.

[George]

And so the next week, they were at Detroit, I believe. Terrible team. And Bullwinkle is wearing the Cowboys. Hack is. It's going to be a great year for the Cowboys. Well, they got beat by Detroit. I mean, smashed like 42 to 14 or something. So I thought, well, that's. That's bad luck. But then that same weekend, our intramural football team won. So we put. We had. We actually had hats for our football team, had an M on them for Maulers, and we put that on Bullwinkle's head and we won. That weekend we had already won. So we figured out we're never going to lose again. And the next week. I don't think flag football has ever had a game this lopsided before. We just got destroyed.

[Craig]

So we won. Then put the hat on him.

[George]

Yeah. So we won before.

[Craig]

Yeah, we lost the first game with Bullwinkle wearing the Mahlers hat. So now keys locked in a trunk. Cowboys lose. Well, he's wearing a Cowboys hat. Maulers lose wearing a Mauler's hat.

[George]

So then our roommates, a big Vikings fan, they won, I believe, over San Francisco or somebody like that, an upset. So he's feeling all high and mighty, and he puts the Vikings hat on Bullwinkle.

[Craig]

We don't know it's bad luck yet.

[George]

Yeah, but then they get absolutely whipped. And so he thinks, get that Vikings hat away from the deer. And we all thought, okay, this is definitely bad luck. It's bad luck for football teams. Let's just put another hat for comedy's sake. Let's just put a sombrero on it. So I get home from school like that next Tuesday or something, and one of our roommates, Skip, was watching tv and he's silent. I said, what's going on? And he just points at the tv. He had it on CNN in coverage of a terrible earthquake and there were hundreds dead.

[Gordon]

Where was the earthquake?

[George]

Mexico. So, yeah, keys locked in a trunk.

[Craig]

Cursed the Cowboys, Maulers, Vikings and earthquake in Mexico.

[George]

Take that for data.

[Gordon]

So why was he named Bullwinkle? Why is it deer named Bullwinkle?

[George]

I Don't know. We just thought it was a funny name. Yeah, I guess we did her. Bullwinkle. From the cartoon? I guess.

[Gordon]

I don't know.

[Craig]

You're mistaken. You're mistaken us for putting more than one second of thought into naming a deer head.

[Gordon]

Gotcha.

[George]

Yeah. So there's proof, though.

[Gordon]

And what happened to Bullwinkle?

[Craig]

We threw him away, didn't we? Because he was such bad luck.

[George]

I think so. I think when we moved out of the apartment, I think y' all asked me if I wanted it back. No. I don't know what we're going to do with it. I think y' all just put it in the dumpster.

[Craig]

You got to admit, Gordo, the Mexico earthquake. Isn't that the cherry on top of the Bullwinkle story?

[George]

It's a pretty amazing. Seem very unfazed, like three weeks time.

[Gordon]

I am very unfazed by this, man.

[George]

We thought you would be intimidated or a little spooked out by that, but I guess not.

[Gordon]

Yep.

[George]

All right. Well, last week was superstitions. This week is the sign of the times. The times we live in. And on our radio show, we really don't talk politics and we really won't today. But we wanted to talk about the times we are living in. And I thought I'd give you just a couple of headlines and see if gives you some sort of fear. Nine killed, 130 injured. And two explosions that went off. National Guard uses tear gas to disperse protesters in California. Does that raise your blood pressure just a little bit?

[Gordon]

Well, I have the first question is, were the explosions man caused or were they just some sort of natural gas explosion?

[George]

They were bombs that were planted on purpose in a Crowded City in 1971 in Belfast in Northern Ireland. And the other headline was from 1969 at People's park and Berkeley, where tear gas was dropped out of helicopters and the National Guard that was sent in by Ronald Reagan to try to restore order. Point being that some of our headlines repeat themselves from years ago and decades ago, centuries ago. But I will say that and we'll get into this survey that was done and what people fear. These are some pretty crazy times we're living in. But I keep telling myself that what our parents went through, at least Craig and I's parents went through in. During the World War II and Depression era. What our parents and brothers and sisters went through in the 1960s into the 70s with just incredible stories that went on in this. In this country and in this world. Are the Times any crazier now? Than they. Than they were then? Or do we have any more fear of a bomb going off or nuclear annihilation that we did 30 or 40 years ago?

[Gordon]

No. I think that, to me, the 60s still take the cake as far as civil unrest and people not knowing how the world was changing and feeling uncertain about it. You have world leaders and civil rights leaders getting assassinated left and right. And then you had the Vietnam War, I think, and you had the hippies, and you had Manson cults. And I think there was more craziness in the 60s that had people questioning the fabric of our culture than even now. And it seems crazy to say, but. Because I think World War II, I mean, yes, you have an existential threat and you have a world war, and you had just come out of a depression, but those things were kind of like known enemies, even though you knew that they could kill you and could kill a nation. There was uncertainty as to how this was going to go, but there was an uncertainty as to what the problems were.

[George]

Yeah, the 60s was different.

[Gordon]

60S was a lot more. It's harder to make sense of while you're in it.

[Craig]

A world war is also unifying for a country.

[George]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And the 60s were more dividing. I'll go you even 100 years earlier, Gordo. I agree. The 1960s. How about the 1860s?

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[Craig]

When America is in the middle of a civil war, you know, we hear all the talk about how divided we are today, and a lot of that is very true. But we've never been more divided than the 1860s when we were fighting each other. Bloody battlefields. The nation was ripped completely in half. We were at war with ourselves.

[Gordon]

And the bloodiest war we've ever had.

[George]

Lost more Americans in that war than.

[Gordon]

Right, so you had people in families that were fighting each other, people who were north of the Mason Dixon line and south of the Mason Dixon line. So, yeah, I couldn't imagine. And that's why, you know, of course, Lincoln always gets ranked as top president because of him shepherding us through those times.

[George]

Patch that all back together.

[Craig]

Yeah. So it's bad now, but it's not the 1960s or the 1860s. I think those two trump whatever we're going through right now.

[Gordon]

You know, a lot of what we're going through now is in this weird realm of. It's not in real life. Like, you walk around and people aren't talking like that to each other in person. It's just when we go into our other realm, which is the virtual world, when we go online and everyone's yelling and things are going crazy.

[George]

Yes. That is what makes this feel different. We've. We were alive during the. Weren't you totally confused, by the way, about Vietnam and protest when we were. I didn't know what was going on. I just knew it was very unsettling. But could you imagine being in elementary school and somehow being introduced to social media and seeing all this online? And that is what makes it different. And I do think that so many times social media makes something appear more devastating and more complicated than it really is. And the immediate reaction to it. That is something that we have that accelerates big events or social topics that we. That is very new to us. Yes.

[Gordon]

And there's gas thrown on every fire now.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

That's not to say that there aren't fires. You know, a lot of this stuff is real and it does affect people's lives. But the accelerant that we have of social media, that's thrown on every controversy and you know that. That part is different. You know, that is how the world is being remade now that everyone can broadcast their own opinion and we get to choose our own reality online too. That's another big deal to where we don't have the same news sources and we've decentralized everything. So of course we faction up even more.

[George]

Yeah. And you know, that is one thing that if I could offer any sort of advice, it would be don't find yourself. If it is some sort of social event or something that that has happened either it's a catastrophic event that you're trying to find out information. And I think that's mainly what people are trying to do. What's the latest on this? What are they saying about this? But I think if you spend a lot of time scrolling through on something, reading the gas fire that is taking place, or if you watch a news outlet for four or five hours straight, I think. I don't think that is good for anybody. I think that will just raise your blood pressure, it will make you fearful. I just don't think that's good for you.

[Craig]

You know, I've come around on that. You've thought that way for a long time. And I've always been a news junkie. My dad was a news junkie. The only thing he listened to in the car was news radio.

[George]

Yeah.

[Craig]

When he got home from work, all he did was watch the national news, then the local news. And so I grew up around that. And I've always loved watching the news. And it was only until recently that I was a big News junkie. And then I just got the feeling that I was poisoning myself, that every night watching all this bad news. And I still feel like I need to watch the news because I want to know what's going on in the world around me. I've always wanted to be aware of what was happening, especially in my community and in the world. I want to know the headlines. But lately I've watched less and less news because it seems to be poisoning my brain. And I'm one that's tried to get a varied account. I try to watch a bunch of different networks and read a bunch of different things. And not just in an echo chamber, but even there, you were just overwhelmed with so much bad news and so much suffering and bloodshed that it starts to get to you. So I've. I still watch, but I'm. I monitor how much I watch these days.

[Gordon]

Yeah, here's a bunch of stuff you can't do much about here. Go carry it with you the rest of the day.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

I know, I know. And, you know, some people say it's a. It's a luxury to not tune into the news, but I'm not so sure that that's the correct way of phrasing it because I know a lot of people that don't tune into the news from all walks of life. And the. The argument that, well, it's because the news doesn't really affect you now. It's. It affects all of us, I guess, the policies that are made. And. But at the same time, if you can only do one thing about it, which is basically your vote, or you're going to go out and you have to be an organizer to try to influence a bunch of other people on how to vote. How many people actually have time to do that? That may be the luxury.

[George]

Yeah. I hope that people still get involved, though, once they see something and have that feeling of, I want to make this different, I want to run for city council or I want to get involved in area politics. And we've said this on a radio show, it gets glossed over and a few people get involved in it. But really, that's what we should be worried about. What's going on in your own town.

[Gordon]

In your own area, it's not sexy.

[George]

George, but I know nobody cares. It doesn't float anybody's boat until something's in your backyard that you don't like.

[Gordon]

It's probably the most important. But it's not as fun to. It's not as fun of a soap opera. So I'll go to the one that has the most drama. That's the one I'm interested in.

[George]

Because we hear the word bond and then we're going to vote on a.

[Gordon]

Municipal bond, the biggest Glazer term ever invented by humankind.

[Craig]

But so many, if not most big movements in countries around the world over the course of time started grassroots. They started locally, they started with electing these people here and these people here at a local level. And it just grew. Yeah, you know, sometimes it will start at the very top. You elect one person at the top and it has a trickle down, but, but so much of the time it starts from the ground up.

[George]

You know, in a survey, the number one fear of Americans was government was corrupt politicians or government officials. I wonder how much that's changed from the 60s.

[Craig]

And number one fear today?

[George]

Number one fear today, like more than 20 and 24. And we'll talk about some of the other ones, from AI to nuclear war.

[Craig]

And money and inflation, more than being shot or crime.

[George]

Yeah, that was over 60 public speaking that that was their biggest fear of.

[Craig]

Just, you know, snakes.

[George]

What around you is your biggest fear? You know, topics like war or, you know, money, inflation, the AI thing that we'll talk about. But I think that may be a little different and this applies to both sides. But I, I guess this is again, my advice would what I, I keep holding on to that. I think we have more good people than gets reported because we report on the fringe elements. Because it's like you said, Gordo, it's more interesting and it makes big headlines because they do something that is sometimes just grotesque. But I do believe that there are more people in the middle who are just hoping, as JFK would say, they treasure their children's future and we all breathe the same air. I think most people feel that way and. No, I think most people feel that way and they want the best for their family and the people that they love. But all we hear about is the discord. That's what we hear about and I think it exists. But I, I just wonder if the accelerators of the networks, local affiliates, social media, I wonder if it makes it seem. Seem worse than it really is.

[Gordon]

Yeah, it does make it seem worse than it really is because that's all that gets reported. You know, the news is just a small aperture with which to look at the world. And so the picture is incredibly cropped. So if you're looking at only the negative parts, and you're going to have a tendency to make that leap of magnifying, you're presented with evidence and you think everything is bad because everything you've seen that's reporting on the world is bad because if it bleeds, it leads. So of course you're going to think that. But I just encourage everyone to compare it with your everyday life. I mean, how is it when things are as bad as they are and everyone is always incentivized to say we're living in the worst time ever? I hear so many people saying this horrible exaggeration. You know, this is the worst it's ever been. And meanwhile, everybody, the quality standard of living is higher than it's ever been for people. You know, how are we able, if it's so bad out there, how are people able to walk down the hall and pass 50 people and not have 75 arguments when they're going down that hall? It just doesn't. You don't see it in regular life. People don't stop to argue the way that they do. Every single, every other interaction online is an argument. So, you know, there's a disconnect with the, the world in which we're choosing to live in, which is the virtual world, and the world that we're so far required to live in, which is our biological world. Yeah, the world we walk around down here. People tend to get along in spite of the problems, the very real problems that are going on in real life. People have a tendency to get along in real life in a way, and they're incentivized to get along in real life in a way. They're not incentivized to get along in our new world, which we are all moving more and more into the virtual world.

[Craig]

I agree with that completely. I think you're dead on. And I have also always believed this, that in the online world, and I think in the world in general. But to your point, George, does it seem worse than it is? Because the online world controls the narrative? And I really believe that in America, maybe this way, in other countries, that there are, I don't know what the numbers are, 5 to 10% on the far right that are screaming all the time, and 5 to 10% on the far left, they're screaming all the time. And they're the ones that spend all day at the keyboard and they're the ones that post on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter all day long and Reddit and you name it, trying to get their point across, shouting down the other side, and that's maybe 10% of America.

[Gordon]

But they control 90% of the conversation.

[Craig]

But they control 90% of THE conversation and the 90% of Americans in the middle, I really believe, don't want to hear any of the noise. And like you say, Gordon, they're going along with their lives and things are okay.

[George]

Well, they need to get involved. They need to get more engaged.

[Gordon]

You have lots of opinions as to what I need to do.

[George]

Well, maybe there is something to that. Maybe we should be more engaged as citizens and care more about things that seem very distant or things that we're not interested in.

[Craig]

But I think it's really sad and bothers me that 10% control the 90%.

[George]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it feels like the 90% feel helpless and they go online and they see this and then the 90%, they're kind of in the middle somewhere. They leave their 5 minute online scroll thinking, wow, the world is burning down. Everybody hates each other. And I don't think everybody hates each other.

[George]

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[Craig]

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[George]

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[George]

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[Gordon]

Wait, now what? Now they wrote, they made a post about a family member that died.

[George]

Well, it was an article written about their family members. So. And they went on and read it and then thought, well, I wonder what people, how they were reacting to this story and saw just awful comments about their relative who paid the price of what happened in the story. And they don't read comments anymore because the comments were so terrible. And that's one thing that I remember the first time I did read it and I've tried to stay away from them too, but I just couldn't believe of, wow, these people are going after parents who just lost a child or you know, just something that you would think the consensus would be. What a sad story. I'm so sorry for this family. I hope they find peace. Some sort of comment like that. But no, let me go to war with these people and let them know what they should have done as parents and maybe their child would be alive. And I don't know when that started. I don't know when exactly that started, but you talk about poison. That's one that I've always had a hard time dealing with.

[Gordon]

Well, it started at the beginning of time. The only difference was that you weren't able to publish because not everybody owned a newspaper and not everybody had eyeballs and not everybody had a captive audience. Now we all do. Now all of our private thoughts are public and we've lost the judgment as to whether we wanted to say this out loud in a crowded room because the crowded room is always safe now because the crowded room is virtual. So that's what's changed. I think that people have always had these thoughts. I think human nature has always been the same. I just think that it's expressed differently now. Yeah, and it's, you know, we've shined a light onto our darkest, the darkest parts of ourselves and everyone can see the darkest parts of humanity. And I don't know where that leads us. I think that the only way to do it is just, I guess you just get depressed about it. Wow, this is the way humans really are. They're really this negative and this bad. And I guess part of it, this goes back to the age old question, do you want to know the truth or do you not do you want to live in your ignorance and your narrative is that the world is good and the people are good and that people have good thoughts and wish each other well? And I think that they do when they're in a physical space with each other. At least they'll pretend to feel that way.

[George]

I need cleansers. And sometimes we may get tired of the feel good story on the news or in this case, like college game day. They always, I think, have amazing stories of someone who's overcome something. That kicker for Auburn.

[Gordon]

A lot of those are ginned up though.

[Craig]

Yeah, I don't need it in college pregame shows. I do need it in the news. A lot of newscasts at the very end now have a fluff piece and I need that. But I don't need it in college game day because the whole thing is fun. College football.

[George]

But it's not though. College football fans fight each other more than anyone in all these games. I think sometimes we forget their humans who are competing. He sucks. I hope he transfers. No, he's somebody's son who has gotten to this point to be a college athlete. And this kicker for Auburn has gone through just incredible battles with cancer and somehow he's back out on the field kicking. I need that story every Saturday to restore my faith in humanity. Not only the human spirit, but how people react around that. And yeah, there's so much negative out there, but I think you're right. I think a lot of people dismiss that as, okay, that's just a fluff piece. And I'm sure if you started a network and they had half of their news as, hey, look at this amazing story and this money that has been raised, it would, sadly, it would probably fail.

[Craig]

Yeah. That age old question, are people inherently good or are they inherently bad? I think most people have both in them in us. And I'm reminded of when I was a kid, my dad had a book on our bookshelf called the Glorious Burden. And it was about the history of the presidency. And I would read it because back then we didn't have the Internet and we didn't have anything to do as kids. So I read every book on my dad's bookshelf and it would go back to the 1700s and it had bits from each campaign over all of the years. And this book, I think at the time went up to like 1968 or 72, something like that. And the stuff that was written and said and posted on little flyers that were posted around town.

[George]

Horrible.

[Craig]

Were so horrible.

[Gordon]

Yeah, you talk about Canada Talk about dirty campaigns.

[Craig]

It was unheard. I was looking at this stuff thinking we were allowed to say that. They were allowed to put that picture of Thomas Jefferson or whoever it was up on a bulletin board somewhere. And it's just that today we all have that bulletin board. Like Gordo was saying, everybody, now everyone's got opinions on both sides, good and bad. You have negative opinions. And now we all voice all these negative opinions. But we've had them forever. They're not new. These opinions are not new. And in fact, we may have been more vile and disgusting back then when it came to our political discourse than we are even today. And that's hard to imagine.

[George]

Well, what was it? Was it the Dallas Morning News or the Dallas Times Herald that had the full page Wanted for treason. Jfk, I guess.

[Gordon]

Yeah. It was an advertisement. Yes. It wasn't done by the editorial of the Dallas Morning News, but yes, when.

[George]

He came to town.

[Gordon]

Yeah, wanted for treason. Yeah. It was a group of citizens that had hired and made that ad, you know, so he had to see that. So, yeah, I mean, in politics this has been going on, but we do have periods of time where things will get more civil and then things will get worse. So it's cyclical.

[Craig]

You know, talking about it being cyclical, I think you're right. I was talking to a buddy of mine who worked in politics back in the 90s and early aughts, and he's a very down the middle guy. And he said that he can't believe where it's gotten to today. And that when he was in politics 30 years ago, he said, you know, you didn't want the other side to win an election, but you always listened to them. And there was always talk back and forth about how to make the country better or the state better or the city better. And he said, all of that is gone. And that's the saddest thing. To him, someone who came from the world of politics, is that we don't have one second to even remotely listen to the other side. And back in the day, some of the most famous lawmakers were famous because they would reach across the aisle and they were easy to get along with. The other party liked them. I don't know that there's anybody in either party right now that the other party likes. It just seems like we're so incredibly torn down the middle there. That. That's the part that I guess scares me the most. Is that a path forward for this country? It's got to be together. Unless this country is going to split in two. But it's got to be together. And right now it just feels like nobody wants to work together.

[George]

Well, I bet even there, maybe it's not as bad as it's being reported, because what makes the headlines are the disagreements. I'm sure there are phone calls that happen in our state, in Austin and in our nation's capital of.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but what do they say? You can't let this get out that I talk to you because my constituents will kill me.

[George]

They may have to, but at least they're having that conversation of, hey, what could we do here to. To make sure the government doesn't shut down or what could we do here? I don't know what people are saying where you're from, but this is what they're saying. I am I just idiotic to believe that that still happens. I think it does.

[Gordon]

Like I said, I guarantee it still happens. But you can't say it out loud because, you know, and a lot of this started with one of the greatest broadcasters that ever lived, was when Rush came along and really started, found that commercial success in demonizing the other side and being just that every day, hammering on. So you're never. Now you're never going to want your side to compromise with devils. And once you've demonized the other side, why would you ever want someone to work with the devil on a deal? You don't. So. And each side has done this successfully to where now you can't.

[Craig]

You.

[Gordon]

You cannot even go to a family get together. And if you even talk to Uncle John, knowing his political beliefs, then you really sold out your side. And it's like, but can't we just talk about trucks? Look, we have that in common. We're at a family get together, okay? No. How dare you talk with a Nazi or whoever. Whatever bad name you're trying to call people.

[George]

Okay, but again, back to the 60s. I remember several dinner parties my parents threw not going well either with family members or with business associates over Vietnam hippies and it.

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[George]

And even with my brothers and sisters, when they would bring home someone they were sometimes confronted about why is your hair so long? And what's this whole peace thing about? You know, I mean, it was. Yeah, they had very. A very difficult time finding common ground then too. And I'm sure they did in the 70s and, and the 80s as well. Another one that ended up on the top five of fears of Americans was nuclear war. You guys feel better about that now or when?

[Gordon]

Yeah, it's interesting that we don't even really think about that anymore.

[Craig]

Never think about that.

[Gordon]

When I know that there's been somebody was a book a few years ago that talked about how dangerously close we are to still having nuclear war. And no one ever thinks about it because the narratives kind of changed or the interest level has kind of changed. We used to worry about it all the time.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

And now we just think we got that handled. Now we saw that whole nuclear war.

[George]

Issue, that doomsday clock that they started in 1947, which as they say, is a metaphor. It's not a prediction.

[Gordon]

Right.

[George]

But they have us at 89 seconds to midnight as of January of 2025, and at 91 we were 17 minutes away. So we ticked down now to 88 seconds and you know, again, it's what was atomic scientists that started this thing way back.

[Gordon]

So it's an atomic clock.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

Atomic doomsday class. Where was it at its closest? Is it at its closest now?

[George]

Yes, this is the closest it's ever been.

[Gordon]

Okay. And think about how fearful we were during the. Before we were born, you know, but in the 50s, 60s for nuclear war. Nuclear Armageddon.

[George]

Yeah. People I've talked to lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, thought we were close.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[George]

They thought it was going to happen.

[Gordon]

When I watch documentaries on that, I get sweaty thinking about how close we were to that. And you know, there's that famous incident, I wish I knew it and had researched it for this, about that sub commander who basically saved the world from.

[George]

Nuclear disaster because one computer had it wrong about incoming missiles or.

[Gordon]

Right. And he said, you know, basically he defied an order to launch his missiles because he was like, I just would like for a little confirmation that this is going to happen. And he basically saved the world from happening because if he had launched, then everybody has to launch and then that's the end. And to think that we're that vulnerable with just one piece of garbled information away from destroying the entire planet that's been here for 6 billion, 13 billion years. How long has the planet been here?

[Craig]

Six to 13 billion years, at least since the.

[Gordon]

I'm giving you a recovery basis.

[George]

Okay. And that's another one was on the list with cyber terrorism. And a lot of that goes to the financial world, but. Or our electric grid. But what about that hacking into either our system or the Russian system?

[Craig]

I fear that way more than nuclear war. Are you guys watching the show called paradise with Sterling K. Brown?

[George]

Not yet.

[Craig]

It's really good. Really good. I think you guys would Love ends up that there is a nuclear war, but it is caused by something other than you would think. And that's kind of how I feel. Nuclear war will eventually happen. In this case, it's caused by a weather occurrence or an exploit, an underground explosion that causes duck situation on a pond. It's an underground explosion that causes a tsunami which causes a bunch of duck situations. And because the world is having to deal with this chaos, and I think it can come in the form of that or it could come in the form of cyber hacking and a complete meltdown of our, of our infrastructure. And that's when the countries who have nuclear capabilities start to panic. Oh, well, the, the whole world's going to hell in a handbasket. Well, now we really got to fight for whatever's going to be left here. And that's when the nuclear bombs all started going off in this show. And so that's so that maybe that's why I don't think about nuclear war. Even though it could just take one accident or it could take one crazy, like Putin, you know, saying, I've had about enough of all this and I'm just going to go down a blaze of glory. But I don't think about that nearly as much as I think about cyber hacking causing worldwide panic.

[Gordon]

You talk about the social fabric coming unraveled. Give us one week with the US without any power and you talk about us, we'll get to fighting each other very quickly.

[George]

Yes. Yeah, that's, that's really scary. And that's why cyber terrorism, I think was in the top 10. And we'll do our whole section of, of AI at some point and whole.

[Craig]

Episode on that episode.

[George]

Yeah, but that's my fear is that something will be get put in place and well, it's automated, so there's really nothing we can do to hit off or, you know, don't launch missiles or something like that.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I think that the, to me, the most interesting problem that we're going to face and conundrum in this situation will happen was will not let. We'll try to keep AI from being able to press the button itself automatically. So we'll keep the human. It'll make us feel better to keep the human in the decision making, just like in baseball. But we will rely on the AI to give us its suggestions and it will think out the problem and AI will recommend you push the button and then just the arguments that will take place before we actually push the button, which we will do. But people will say, well, let's not listen to it. But the thing's always giving us good advice in doing this, and we absolutely will do what it says. We think that we preserve our free will by being the physical finger that presses the button. Yeah, but yet we have no free will because we've been convinced that it's. It's our overlord. And it will be our overlord on so many things. It will do so many things that are good for us, and we'll solve our cancer before it recommends that we.

[George]

And I guess that whoever pushes the button could say, Yeah, I know 20 million are dead, but it could have been 40, right? According to AI so that's why I went ahead and. And pushed that thing.

[Gordon]

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[George]

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[Gordon]

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[George]

Everyone knows the legend of D.B. cooper, but what if I told you there's an even better story out there? One with multiple aircraft hijackings, prison escapes, and so many twists and turns. I'm talking about the hit podcast American Skyjacker, which is now an action packed documentary coming to theaters and streaming this fall. Find out more at www.americanskyjacker.com and listen to our bonus episode of the podcast, coming soon, American Skyjacker. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. What about money and inflation, you guys, if not for yourself, worried about it for future generations and what things are going to cost? If it's a car or.

[Gordon]

I have to admit, I don't understand money.

[George]

I don't either.

[Gordon]

It's very confusing to me. I hear everyone complains about inflation, but at the same time, don't we? Didn't inflation somehow tied to. That's how money grows too, right?

[George]

How does crypto tie into all that?

[Gordon]

I mean, like, if money was always worth the same, then how do you keep gaining more value and money? I mean, I know some of inflation is bad, but don't you need some natural inflation? That's how things grow. Or am I thinking that inflation is the wrong term?

[Craig]

No, I think you're right. And I think that's why countries try to keep it, or our country at least tries to keep it around 2%.

[Gordon]

They know that you want measured inflation through time.

[Craig]

There has to be inflation. And ideally prices will go up, but also wages will go up and everything will just kind of grow normally. It's when it gets out of whack, is when things get really messed up.

[George]

You know, with fears of, well, this is how it's probably going to be. I was very guilty of this right after 9, 11, and we have had terrorist attacks since. But didn't y' all think this is just going to change the way we live and. And we're going to have incidents like this. Yeah. On a yearly basis, and thank goodness that has not been the case. But you just never really know, you know, what something is going to symbolize or change. It did change us in some ways, but it's, It's. I would say this. I. I think we've done pretty well in the last 24 years compared to how I felt then.

[Craig]

You know, maybe that's the biggest difference today compared to the tumultuous 1960s or 1860s or whatever decade you want to go to, is that the world is so small today. So everything seems so close and interconnected, and it just seems like, you know, one. One bad move on this side of the globe is going to affect this side of the globe and terrorism. You think about it wherever you go, and we travel so quickly and we get around the world so quickly that it all just seems like one gigantic ball of chaos. Maybe more than it did back in the day when you rarely left your hometown or you rarely traveled, things like that. So maybe that's the difference and why a lot of people believe that it's more chaotic now than ever before. I think social media is the main difference. I think faith and emotion are really powerful forces and that drives social media. They're much more powerful than logic and reason. And when people get wrapped up in a topic and they are driven by faith and emotion, that's when they are the loudest and the angriest and the most driven. But that's been the case forever. It's just now that the world is so small, we're feeling everybody's faith and emotion and anger at the same time. And because of social media, we're seeing it and we're hearing it constantly.

[Gordon]

Yeah, humans haven't changed. Technology has changed.

[George]

Right.

[Gordon]

And that's good and bad. And too often people argue from one perspective or the other, and it is a combination of those things. What it will net out to be, I don't know. Because technology has solved so many problems and been so good for humankind. It's been our greatest invention. You know, technology is the thing where human progress, where humans exerted dominion over the world. But think about this. We've lived in a time, our parents, grandparents. For me, you know, lived in a time that bridged between when man had the ability to destroy the world and before they just. Man did not have that ability. And now man does have the ability to push a button and destroy the world because of technology. We've developed the technology to destroy everything that's ever existed here.

[George]

Yeah. And that's crazy different than back in the other centuries. Do you find yourself, and we've asked this of each other before, are you an optimistic person or pessimistic as you get older, do you find yourself being less optimistic? I think that's true. In my case, I'm still more than 50% optimistic. I still want to say everything's going to be okay, it's going to be fine. Whether it's we have enough checks and balances or we have enough good people in the world, we have enough clear thinking people in the world. But that number has slipped with me and I don't know what it is I'll throw out. I'm 58% optimistic as opposed to 78 or 79. How do you guys feel about that?

[Craig]

I've always been a pessimist until recently. And I think maybe it has to do with having a kid late in life. I've just seen more of the beauty in the world and more joy in the world through her eyes or through raising her. And so I was always a pessimist and thought, not that the world was coming to an end or anything, but I think over the last few years I've changed into, I think short term I'm very optimistic and long term I'm still pretty pessimistic. Like I don't know that we're going to be here in 100 years. But short term, I think it's kind of an exciting time with all the advances in technology and the things that we're going to get to experience. Keep in mind, we're the generation that grew up playing with sticks in the dirt, you know, for fun. And what we're going to get to experience over the next like five to 10 years, I think is really exciting and I can't wait to see it all unfold. But after that, all bets are off. I'm pretty pessimistic and I hate to say this because I love this country, but all empires fall and I am very pessimistic about the long term path that this country's on.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I'm basically exactly the same way. I think that the early part of our demise is going to be very exciting and fun.

[George]

Right.

[Gordon]

I think that The. That part's going to be good. Next five to 10 years, 20 years. I'm not sure what the time frame is going to be. It is an exciting time. We're going to have lots of breakthroughs. The world is going to be changing at a rapid pace, and it's going to be very, very exciting. When you ask, am I optimistic or pessimistic? It depends on who you're talking about. I mean, you talk about humans. I'm probably pessimistic for humans. I do think that we're creating our successors. I think AI will be the successor to humans. Humans eventually die out and there will be digital consciousness. That will be the thing that we were a stepping stone for the evolution to that be born, for that creature to be born. So I think it's going to be good for that, our successors. But as far as humans, I think that we were. We're. We're the apes in the chain here.

[Craig]

Yeah, I agree.

[George]

Yeah. Hope figures in there somewhere. Doesn't. Do you have, like, because you have a child now, are you more hopeful for the future now? Maybe that's some sort of mind trick that were. Well, I'm hoping that for a better world or at least a world that can sustain for those who come after us.

[Craig]

She's made me more optimistic about humanity short term has opened my eyes and exposed me to more people and more goodness. As I see people treating her well or meeting nice parents, you know, meeting other nice kids, that's opened a door to a world that I didn't know was there before I was a parent. But I am really worried about what kind of world she will be living in when she is 75 years old or 50 years old, hell, even 25 years old.

[George]

Sure.

[Craig]

I'm prop. Just knowing where I think we're going. I'm pessimistic about when she's our age, doing a podcast, what. What she'll be talking about and experiencing. Because I don't think it's going to be good.

[Gordon]

And I don't know that any humans will be doing podcasts then. No, I mean, we'll.

[Craig]

I was kind of kidding.

[Gordon]

Yeah, we'll press a button and it'll, you know, it'll spit out a podcast that's made perfect just for you and you' think it's great, right?

[George]

And you think we're close to the movie idiocracy already. That was supposed to be 500 years in the future and that's like five years away now.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I mean, you know, at its base Is that we're. We just have a few basic impulses. Our lizard brain works in such a way. And technology is going to get real good at just serving our lizard brain the raw meat that it needs. It'll give us the fear, It'll give us the sex that we need and the hatred that we need. And then we'll all just be in our little pods experiencing that all the time.

[Craig]

We're almost there right now, and.

[Gordon]

And everyone in their own virtual world. They're the king of that virtual world. And they get to have all kinds of adventures and fun and change their identities every other day, and it's just going to be great. But we'll all be socially disconnected with the feeling of connection as we lay in our pickled juice. As long as we still have some biological.

[George]

Starting to lose hope.

[Gordon]

You're losing hope, but it depends on your perspective. You'll lose hope if you're wanting the world to continue as it is now. But if I said, well, we're going to live in a world in which everyone has a great quality of life and everyone is the king of their own nation, and everybody's subjects love them, and they are a kind, benevolent ruler, and they get to make love with whoever they want, you know, this is all in the virtual world, but they're experiencing just as if it was real. And everybody has a quality of life as good as the greatest person who ever lived on Earth. It's like, that is hope, isn't it? Yeah, I guess, but it sounds dystopian to you because you keep comparing it to this kind of world.

[George]

Yeah. And I don't think I'll be around for all that. That's not going to happen while I'm still kicking, is it?

[Gordon]

Well, who knows if we can get a neuralink hookup that it's kind of already starting to plug into.

[George]

I'm not ready for that. And as we grow older, we're supposed to look at the younger generations. We have no chance. See, I'm optimistic about them, too. And I have hope for this next generation because I've seen a lot of good from them in acceptance, and I think they handle things better than our generation did. In some ways.

[Gordon]

In some ways.

[George]

In some things, they drive me absolutely insane. But I think just with every generation, my generation, I know my dad looked at it and thought, oh, my gosh, we're going to hell in a hand basket. But we've made it to this point, and I think they'll make it okay, too, I hope.

[Gordon]

Yeah. I mean, they'll face challenges, sure, absolutely. That we didn't. I know it's controversial and everything and we will disagree about it until the very end, but climate change is something that we will deny and preach about until the very end because we're more invested in trying to win that argument than trying to preserve the world, I think. So they're going to be facing that even if the world fictitiously melts.

[George]

They may be so smart. They figure it out, though.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but how can they figure it out?

[George]

I don't know.

[Gordon]

I mean, at some point you reach a critical point where the Earth is in a biological. It's in a process where it just has to go through.

[George]

Yeah, it may be maybe too.

[Gordon]

There's nothing that humans can do. And that's part of the argument to people who don't believe in man made client change. That's what they say. Hey, this is just a natural thing. It has nothing to do with man. All right, fine. It has nothing to do with man. But we're going to experience a heat death, and that seems like we should at least unify on. Is there anything we can do about this that would be bad? Because it sounds bad. Heat death sounds bad.

[George]

That does sound bad. Yeah, that sounds really bad. Well, there's a lot of bad out there, but there's also good.

[Gordon]

But there's a lot of good. And what you got to do is focus on the good and the positive and what can you do to make a difference and mitigate the bad?

[George]

Yes, it's like you said a few weeks ago, focus on the people around you and what's good, the good that we have around us and enjoy that in the time that we have here.

[Gordon]

Yeah, well, now you've depressed me. Give me something good. Hit me with something funny.

[George]

Funyuns. I think Funyuns will be around in the future.

[Gordon]

Funyuns will survive the heat death of the Earth.

[Craig]

They would survive a nuclear holocaust for sure.

[Gordon]

Seriously, I've had some Funyuns. I broke up in a bag of Funyuns that I'd had for eight years. Tasted exactly the same. See, there's nothing wrong with them.

[George]

See there? That ought to give you hope for the future.

[Gordon]

Funyuns gives me hope.

[George]

I don't know if we solved anything, but I thought it was a good conversation. I don't know even what direction we went in, but there you go. That's how we roll here on the Musers, the podcast. Thanks to Peter Welton, our producer, and we'll talk to you next week.

[Gordon]

Thanks for listening. Don't forget tomorrow or next up, depending on when you're listening to this. It is the Dallas Cowboys Weekly edition with Bob and George reviewing the Packer nuttiness and previewing the jets game. You can also email the [e-mail] Please also press, follow or subscribe on whatever platform you currently are listening to.

[George]

And don't forget the Musers.

[Gordon]

The podcast is a tired head production, horny.