580: Is Starting A Podcast Worth It In 2025? Here’s Our Take

Summary

Summary of Episode 580: "Is Starting A Podcast Worth It In 2025? Here’s Our Take"

In Episode 580 of "The My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast With Steve Chou," host Steve Chou and co-host Tony engage in an in-depth discussion about the viability of starting a podcast in 2025. They explore the evolving landscape of podcasting, weighing its benefits against the challenges posed by market saturation and changing content consumption habits. This summary encapsulates their key points, insights, and conclusions, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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I. The Podcasting Landscape: Saturation and Accessibility

Initial Concerns About Saturation

Steve initiates the conversation by expressing skepticism about the feasibility of launching a successful podcast in the current saturated market. He remarks:

Steve Chou [00:05:00]: "I think to be in like the top, I think it was like top 10%. You only needed like a couple hundred downloads."

Tony concurs, highlighting how exclusivity within niches can offer better chances for visibility:

Tony [00:02:43]: "It's top in your niche. Right. So it's. You have a. I think you have a better chance because you can break it down by category."

Ease of Entry vs. Competition

While acknowledging the low barrier to entry in podcasting, both hosts discuss how the ease of starting a podcast has led to an influx of content creators, making it challenging to stand out without strategic execution.

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II. Arguments Against Starting a Podcast

Technical and Resource Challenges

Steve outlines the complexities involved in producing quality podcast content, especially when integrating video platforms like YouTube:

Steve Chou [00:06:14]: "Editing a podcast is a lot different than editing a YouTube video. Because you need to edit something that's like 40 minutes long."

He emphasizes the resource-intensive nature of podcast editing, which requires skilled editors to identify engaging clips and maintain audience retention.

Discovery Mechanism Limitations

A significant hurdle discussed is the ineffectiveness of traditional podcast platforms in content discovery:

Steve Chou [00:17:59]: "The search on itunes is so garbage."

Despite advancements, platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts still lack robust discovery algorithms compared to social media giants like YouTube and TikTok.

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III. Arguments For Starting a Podcast

Low Technological Barriers

Tony highlights the minimal technical challenges in setting up a podcast, citing the abundance of online tutorials and easy-to-use recording tools:

Tony [00:04:00]: "I think with podcasting there's very little technology involved. Right. As far as creating it."

Niche Targeting and Social Media Integration

Leveraging platforms like TikTok and YouTube for podcast promotion can enhance discoverability. Tony points out how algorithm-driven feeds can introduce podcasts to interested audiences:

Tony [00:06:00]: "The TikTok algorithm is so good that I get served, like, right now...can make it work well."

Building Loyal Audiences

Podcasts inherently attract dedicated listeners who develop a sense of loyalty and trust over time. This loyalty can translate into tangible business opportunities, such as event attendance and product sales.

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IV. Personal Experiences and Insights

Steve's Decade-Long Podcast Journey

Steve reflects on his ten-year experience with podcasting, noting significant early successes and the evolution of his podcast's role in his business:

Steve Chou [00:30:09]: "I started in 2014. So this is my. Actually this is my 10 year anniversary of the podcast."

He acknowledges that while podcasting was less competitive a decade ago, the current environment demands more strategic effort to achieve similar success.

Tony’s Observations on Discovery and Engagement

Tony shares insights from his interactions and how podcasts have facilitated meaningful connections and business growth:

Tony [00:29:57]: "I think that loyalty that you build with the podcast because someone's listening to you for 40 minutes a day or 40 minutes a week, I think that does really affect the ability to, like, drive conversions on things."

He underscores the podcast's role in building trust and facilitating business opportunities that might not be achievable through other mediums alone.

The Role of Video Integration

Both hosts discuss the importance of integrating podcast content with video platforms to enhance discoverability and engagement, noting that YouTube currently serves as a more effective channel for reaching broader audiences.

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V. Conclusion: Weighing the Pros and Cons

Steve and Tony ultimately present a balanced perspective on the value of starting a podcast in 2025. While acknowledging the increased competition and technical challenges, they also recognize the unique advantages podcasts offer in building loyal audiences and fostering business connections. They emphasize that success in podcasting hinges on strategic content creation, effective use of social media for promotion, and leveraging the medium’s inherent strengths in audience engagement.

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VI. Notable Quotes

• Steve Chou [00:02:00]: "It's all in the execution, right. Like, if you can make your podcast clip that good, then, yeah, it's gonna work well."

• Tony [00:07:38]: "If you want to meet people and you want to like Joe Rogan, he kept going on when he had no listenership... good things started happening when they discovered that he was having these great conversations with people."

• Steve Chou [00:30:56]: "What I mean by that is, so you're trying to promote a podcast on YouTube, and even though YouTube is becoming more podcast friendly, you still need a set of skills to, like, the video has to be in a certain way so that people want to watch it for a long time."

• Tony [00:22:26]: "So I do think it would change because once upon a time we had this conversation."

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VII. Final Thoughts

The episode underscores that while podcasting remains a viable and potentially rewarding endeavor, it requires a nuanced approach that leverages modern content distribution channels and prioritizes high-quality, engaging content. Aspiring podcasters are encouraged to consider their unique value propositions, target niches, and integration with platforms like YouTube and TikTok to maximize their chances of success in an increasingly crowded market.

For those contemplating starting a podcast in 2025, the key takeaway is to approach it with a clear strategy, understanding the demands of content creation and the importance of leveraging complementary platforms to enhance discoverability and audience engagement.

Transcript

[Steve Chu]

Welcome back to the podcast, the show where I cover all of the latest strategies and current events related to e commerce and online business. In this episode, Tony and I debate whether it's still worth it to start a podcast today, given how saturated this medium has become. But before we begin, I wanted to let you know that tickets are now on sale For Seller Summit 2025 over at sellers summit.com the Seller Summit is the conference that I hold every year that specifically targets e commerce entrepreneurs selling physical products online. Unlike other events that focus on inspirational stories and high level advice, mine is a curriculum based conference where you will leave with practical and actionable strategies specifically for an e commerce business. Every speaker I invite is deep in the trenches of their e commerce business, entrepreneurs who are importing large quantities of physical goods and not some high level guys who are overseeing their companies at 50,000ft. I personally hate large events. So the Seller Summit is always small and intimate. Every year we cut off ticket sales at around 200 people, so tickets sell out fast. And we've sold out every single year for the past eight years. If you are an e commerce entrepreneur making more than $250,000 or $1 million per year, we also offer an exclusive mastermind experience with other top sellers. The Seller Summit is going to be held in Fort Lauderdale, Florida from May 6th to May 8th. Right now, this is the cheapest the tickets will ever be. So head on over to sellers summit.com and grab your ticket. Now on to the show. Welcome to the My Wife Quitter Job podcast. Today we're going to be talking about whether starting a podcast is still worth it today. And I think the last time I checked there were like a million podcasts out there. And I think to be in like the top, I think it was like top 10%. You only needed like a couple hundred downloads.

[Tony]

It was surprisingly small.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah.

[Tony]

To, to. To be in the top also. It's top in your niche. Right. So it's. You have a. I think you have a better chance because you can break it down by category.

[Steve Chu]

I wish I had that stat. I should have been prepared with that stat. But it was something shockingly low.

[Tony]

Yes. It was like, I want to say less than a thousand.

[Steve Chu]

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Tony]

So what do you think? So we, we talk. We do in the course. We have several lessons on podcasting. We talk about it sometimes in the webinar. Depends which webinar we're doing. And we tend to, I want to say we don't not recommend it for People. But it's definitely not our first. First choice for people.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah. Actually I've been a little down on podcasting over the years. Ever since, like, you know, everyone just flooded in on it because there's only so many channels and each podcast tends to be pretty long, you know, 30, 40 minutes or maybe even longer. Like Joe Rogan. It's like three hours.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

So. So there really isn't as much time and as much room for a podcast as per se. Like a YouTube channel where the videos are much shorter.

[Tony]

Yeah, So I was. So you brought me down. Oh, I did, yes. On the podcasting train.

[Steve Chu]

All right. I'm just like a Debbie Downer these days.

[Tony]

I know you're a Debbie downer this year. 2024 Debbie Downer. Steve.

[Steve Chu]

The podcast we just released today was the blogging episode.

[Tony]

By the way, you're down down in that one. So I. You brought me down. But I started thinking about this maybe. Well, I have an idea for a podcast which I, I don't want to talk about on this, this episode because it's still. It involves my kids and so I don't like to announce things unless, you know, I've got their buy in on stuff. But I've. So I've been thinking about this a lot for probably the past like four or five weeks. And I actually think podcasting is still a pretty good idea and for a variety of reasons. The first reason, and we've talked about this before, pretty low barrier to entry as far as we know. Lots of people who try to set up a WordPress website and get very, very frustrated very quickly and it doesn't look exactly how they want it to. And most people, when they try to set up a website, they have this idea of what they think it should look like in their mind and then they have the capability of what they can build with zero WordPress experience. And those two are never the same. And so they immediately get frustrated not realizing that initially no one's going to read your website anyway. And by the time you have an audience, you'll have money to pay someone on upwork to make the tweaks to website and get it looking more like you like it or you'll have enough experience to do it yourself. So I think with podcasting there's very little technology involved. Right. As far as creating it. And there are lots of good tutorials on the web. In fact, you have one on. My wife quit her job. You did? I don't know if it's still on there. You might have deleted it, it's still there in your SEO, in your SEO purge. You have a great tutorial on how to set it up. There's several other people that have great tutorials on the basics of podcasting. And we'll take you from like, here's what you need to record to here's how you get it published on itunes. So I think technology wise, low barrier people can figure this out on their own. They're never going to need to hire anyone to help them.

[Steve Chu]

I would agree with that. Actually. You can just sign up for a service now, not even have a website or anything, and have a podcast. Right. So easy peasy that therein kind of.

[Tony]

Lies the problem though, because anyone can do it.

[Steve Chu]

Anyone can do it. And there's not really a good discovery mechanism. Although I think my views of podcasting might have changed a little bit relatively recently, like in the past year or so, because I think YouTube is a great way to proliferate your podcast, ironically.

[Tony]

Okay, so this is, this was my next point is that what has changed my mind about this is the increase of either full podcast or snippets of podcasts on TikTok and YouTube.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, no, I mean that's a consideration. That's why it's on my list to get another video editor just to do the podcast. But again, that takes resources. Editing a podcast is a lot different than editing a YouTube video.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

Because you need to edit something that's like 40 minutes long. You have to find someone that's really good at spotting something that's catchy, so you can move it to the beginning and attract the attention and then move on. And then you can't just like have two talking heads in the video the entire time.

[Tony]

Correct.

[Steve Chu]

It seems like it's pretty significant resources.

[Tony]

Yes. To edit them in like a fancy way for YouTube or tick tock.

[Steve Chu]

Not even fancy, but just like the basics. Not just two talking heads.

[Tony]

Well, I think if you're publishing the entire podcast on like a long form video. Absolutely. But I. What I tend to see is clips of podcasts on. Especially on TikTok. Right. And that I believe is far less editing than editing a full length 40 minute podcast.

[Steve Chu]

So I would disagree because you have to find someone who can spot those clips in a conversation. It's very difficult. So I was trying to do that. So I've published six podcasts, I want to say, on my channel, and they've all done reasonably well. Like the highest one has like 60,000 views and we're talking like a 40 minute episode here.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

But to go through and pick a clip that's interesting, it kind of takes. It kind of takes some skill. Like, you can't just hire Joe Schmo to go in and pick, like, interesting quotes or interesting clips to put on, you know, TikTok or YouTube.

[Tony]

So here's how I would do it. If. If I was doing this, I would be. As I was recording the podcast, I'd have a pad of paper next to me, and when something interesting was said, I would just write down the timestamp of the podcast. And so that would make it easy to clip it out. And I think you could. Like, I'm saying this is not where you're even hiring someone to help you. You're doing this all on your own. Because also, if you're just getting started, right, and you don't have any audience, then you don't have a huge YouTube channel like you do where you want, like, better editing for putting it on YouTube. I think if you just want to put clips on TikTok or clips on YouTube shorts, pretty simple to, like, time time stamp on a piece of paper and then grab it. And I think that's actually pretty low effort.

[Steve Chu]

I would agree with that. In practice. I noticed you don't have your pad out for this episode.

[Tony]

Well, because we're not putting anything up.

[Steve Chu]

I already told you that. I'm going to.

[Tony]

Yes. If you want me to. I can. Not today, because I'm not sitting by any pens. I'm at the wrong desk.

[Steve Chu]

I'm just trying to think if that would ruin my flow. Like, if I had a guest on the show, I was like, oh, good one. And then jot it down.

[Tony]

So when. So I used to do this with. With our podcasts, like, years ago, when we were taught, when we first were like, oh, we should put these on YouTube, I used to do that. And then we didn't. Yes. And then. So I don't think it really ruins your flow because it's literally just. I look up 7:30. That's where we are right now. I would just write 7:30. Um, so I. I think it's. So here's why I think this is good, though, because I have found myself discovering a lot of new podcasts from TikTok specifically because I. I watch YouTube for long form. I watch TikTok for shorts. So I'm not really watching short videos on. On YouTube very often. So for me, like, I've discovered several podcasts. In fact, you know, when Joe Rogan interviewed. So he interviewed what, Trump and J.D. vance before the election. And actually the. The Minnesota Waltz, I think he came on too, Right. Did he do Joe Rogan?

[Steve Chu]

He did not.

[Tony]

Oh, he must have done a different podcast.

[Steve Chu]

Anyone from her campaign went on Rogan.

[Tony]

I found myself watching clips of those. Like, I never watched or listened to the full three hours because I don't have that kind of time, but I found myself watching, like, multiple clips of that interview with Joe Rogan. And like, my boys who are 20 and 24 listen to Joe Rogan, like, full, full length. Right. Like, they'll just put it on in there. Yeah. And So I think one, it's TikTok and YouTube have become a discovery engine for. And it's interesting because I think the TikTok algorithm is so good that I get served, like, right now. So I watched the Golden Bachelor. I think we've talked about this before. It just ended. But all throughout the time that I was watching the Golden Bachelor, I was seeing a lot of TikToks about the Golden Bachelor. I was also getting hit with the podcasts about the Golden Bachelor. So there are, like, podcasts dedicated towards either to either, like, reality TV or the Golden Bachelor specifically, or Bachelorette. And so those were being put in my feed. And there were several times where I was like, oh, I would listen to this podcast, like, during the Golden Bachelorette, right. I would. So it was like, I would never have known that that even existed had I not, you know, been on TikTok, been seeing other things in my feed, and then that got served to me. So Discovery, new podcasts just from the TikTok feed.

[Steve Chu]

No, I agree with you 100%. I'm just trying to think, though, like, that's Joe Rogan or someone famous coming on in a clip. If you see, like, a random Chinese guy and, like, a random person that you've never heard of, unless that clip starts really well with a decent hook, it's probably not even going to do well. Right. If you're not known at all.

[Tony]

Correct. Except for I didn't know these two people doing the Golden Bachelorette. I had no idea who they were.

[Steve Chu]

Is a very popular show, right?

[Tony]

Correct. But it's also something that, like, you would never stop and scroll. Stop your scroll for that because you don't care about the Golden Page. However, if you are on TikTok and you see someone breaking down warriors clips, Right. Like, plays in the Warriors. I know there's a guy on YouTube that does this really well. But, like, if you saw someone talking about basketball plays or something in that niche, you would probably stop because that's something you're interested in and TikTok will feed you that because you're watching other creators.

[Steve Chu]

I mean, that's. That's happened. That's happened many times. I'm just trying to think, though. I. I mean, it's all in the execution, right? Like, I. I'm pretty sure that the basketball clips that I see on Tick Tock, they're. They have really good hooks. Like, it'll say something like, Giannis is gonna get traded. That's like this, the start. And then there's basketball clips of people dunking and whatnot. Yeah, so it's all in the execution. Like, if you can make your podcast clip that good, then, yeah, it's gonna work well.

[Tony]

So, like, last night, this is totally current event, so by the time it's publishes, this will be a little bit old, but last night, the Cav, The Cavs played the Celtics. Cavs were undefeated. Only undefeated team in the NBA. Chasing the warriors record, right? Of what did they go? 24 wins in a row. So, you know, it's like a big deal, right? Because Celtics are the. Are the NBA champion, you know, so it's like all this hype, right? So if someone did a podcast last night or this morning, right, where it broke down the game and you know that they had a good hook, if I didn't know this person was. I'd never heard of their podcast before, but they sort of, you know, break down big games in the NBA. Like, I would probably give that podcast a couple listens based on seeing it in my feed.

[Steve Chu]

I 100% agree, but it's the NBA that attracts me. But if you're. If you're just like teaching E commerce, for example, and then you just bring up two random people that. That doesn't have a good hook and whatnot or anything that's popular. Yeah, I guess if you're talking about something popular, you can probably make it work.

[Tony]

I don't think it has to be popular, though. It only has to be popular with your people. So another example just from this week, our friend Lars sent me a business that was for sale, right? And he was like, you should buy this. So I'm like, I don't know, Lars, coming from you, who's like, down on E commerce, you should buy an E commerce business. But I've never. I've never really thought about buying a business before like that. I mean, I've. It's always been in the back of my mind, but it's never been something I'VE like, seriously considered. Well, over the past couple days, I've spent a decent amount of time, like sort of looking into buying a business, right? Like, what would it take? What do I need, what should I look for? You know, just kind of doing some research. So of course now my feed is starting to show, you know, some business type, business acquisition type pieces of information because that's what I've been focused on for the last couple days. So if I were to see some random Chinese guy talking about pitfalls of buying a business or things that you need to look out for, or things that they won't tell you, or, you know, whatever the hook is, right. I would probably watch it because that's what I'm interested in right now. That's what I'm looking for. So I don't think you have to like, obviously like doing a podcast about reality TV is really, a lot of people are doing that, right. It's got the popularity of the reality tv, but I think as long as it's like once you get in someone's algorithm and you're in that niche of what they're already looking for, you've just opened the opportunity for them to find.

[Steve Chu]

You and listen, so they're in. I mean, I agree with you, but what you said is if it has a hook and if you're just recording a podcast and you're taking a clip out of it, chances are it's not going to have a hook, right?

[Tony]

You gotta, you gotta make the hook.

[Steve Chu]

So, right, you gotta do something or record it. And it's, let's just say I've tried this before. It just takes effort. It can be done. It just takes a lot more effort than you think. For a full length podcast at least. I haven't really tried to break it apart into clips actually, I take that back. I did use Opus once on one of my podcasts. So Opus is a AI tool that will try to extract out interesting clips from whatever you give it. And I, I, I tried it on one of my podcast episodes and, and it was, it just didn't work for me. Like I would have to record something in the front end, I think, and then lead into it, which is doable. Which is doable. But you know, I may as well just record the clip from scratch. I think at that point was, was what I was thinking.

[Tony]

Well, I think there's something about when you see the video and there's like a person or two people with the, the podcast mics. Yeah, I think there's something about that that because, because in my mind it's immediately like, oh, that's podcast. Let me see, let me look down and see whose podcast it is. Right. Because usually the title of the ch. Title of the podcast. And so I think. And here's the other thing. I'm realizing that like so many people listen to podcasts. Especially like, like we were. So my grandkids had their final soccer game of the season on Saturday, went to the thing and you see all these like parents at the game. Right. And it's like rec soccer. So none of the kids are actually that good. And there's a lot of dads walking around with like one AirPod in. Right. And so we bumped into someone that like I, I didn't know that well but my daughter knew him and my son in law was like, hey, what are you listening to? He's like, oh, Tim Ferriss podcast. Right? Like all these dads are at soccer listening to podcasts while their kids are like not playing or whatever. You know, they're like double duty kind of thing. So I just think the amount of people listening and wanting that information and wanting to be infotained. Right. Whatever it is, is still like that's not waned. That's just continuing.

[Steve Chu]

100 agree. I 100 agree. I'm just talking about in terms of proliferation. So every time I do one of my workshops and I just happen to be doing one today, first question I asked is how'd you guys discover me?

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

And the last two workshops it has been nine out of ten. YouTube.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

And then the, the remaining one is the podcast.

[Tony]

But think about it like I don't know how many podcasts this, how many downloads you get a month, but your YouTube channel gets more views a month than your podcast gets downloads. So I actually think based on the numbers that I know it's probably to scale.

[Steve Chu]

It probably is. I mean to a certain extent, you know, the podcast people are, are much more loyal.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

And that's the advantage. Right?

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

So it's hard to say. I think it's really hard to grow a podcast.

[Tony]

Yes. And I, but I think that now that you can sort of market your podcast on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram, I think the ability to grow your podcast just got easier. Not the actual like it is hard to like edit and create the hook and things like that. But like just sitting on, on, on itunes and hoping that someone finds you is tough.

[Steve Chu]

That'll never happen. Yeah, no, I agree. It's really YouTube that's making podcasts attractive. Like platforms Like Spotify and Apple podcast is like the worst. There's no discovery.

[Tony]

No, I. So I was searching for. So I, you know, I take my daughter to school every day, which is. I haven't had to drive to school in a really long time. So I was like, well, let me be productive and listen to like some sort of educational podcast on the way to the drive. Plus hopefully she'll learn something, which I'm sure she's just loving this, right? She probably has her own AirPods and actually. But I searched for, I went on itunes and I searched for I think email marketing, like Black Friday or something like that. This was a couple months ago and people are putting that kind of, kind of content out in October and like two podcasts came up and I'm like, I'm. I. Well, I know, like, I know there's more. Like I couldn't even get. Remember we were talking about Chase and Jimmy's new podcast, Send it?

[Steve Chu]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Tony]

That didn't even come up. And I knew they had an episode about that because I'd gotten their email and that didn't even come up in my search. So the search on itunes is so garbage. And this has happened to me multiple times. Like I've tried to search for, you know, hey, I want a podcast on, you know, Pinterest, you know, ads. Nothing comes up. Right. Well, I know for a fact there's podcasts on this, right? So yeah, I. So that stinks. But I think there's other, now there's other ways to market a podcast which makes to me like reopens the door to why this might be a good idea for your business.

[Steve Chu]

I mean really, I think it's YouTube.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

If we just put it down because YouTube has a great proliferation engine. And you're right, TikTok is good too if you can break it apart into clips that have a good hook.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

So when I think about it though, effort wise, I almost think starting a YouTube channel is less effort. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about a free resource that I offer on my website that you may not be aware of if you are interested in starting your own online store. I put together a comprehensive six day mini course on how to get started in E commerce that you should all check out. It contains both video and text based tutorials that go over the entire process of finding products to sell, all the way to getting your first sales online. Now this course is free and can be [e-mail] free. Just sign up right There on the front page via email. And I'll send you the course right away. Once again, that's mywifequitterjob.com free. Now back to the show. Right? Because, okay, let's say, let's say you start a podcast, you got to record either by yourself or with someone else. Fine. Right. And then to edit that sucker, Provided it's like 30 minutes, 40 minutes long and do a decent job to get recent decent retention on YouTube. Quite a bit of effort. It takes my editor longer to edit a podcast without annotations and everything than it does a 10 minute episode on my YouTube channel.

[Tony]

Because it's also a lot longer. Right? You're talking 40 minutes versus exactly.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, but the hard part that I've always had is finding that clip and maybe using your method, it's better. Although when I'm interviewing someone, I'm, I'm so focused on, you know, listening to them and, and, you know, coming up with a follow up question that I don't. I think jotting down even a timestamp would, would mess me up, honestly. You can do it, but I don't know if I could do it.

[Tony]

Yeah, yeah, I definitely think it's a lot of work to edit it to put on video, but I think that. So obviously I would say that interviewing people on a podcast is easier than just talking by yourself.

[Steve Chu]

Yes, I would agree with that.

[Tony]

So I think for some people, and we have, we know these people, right? Like, this is not an abnormal thing. The thought of like creating a script, talking, looking at a camera for 12 minutes, like, that's pretty intimidating, right?

[Steve Chu]

It is.

[Tony]

And so, or if I said, hey, you get to interview this person and they are like, you know, they used to be on the Bachelor, right? So you get to interview this person that used to. You do Bachelorette content. You get to, you found a bachelor person that wants to come on and be on your podcast, that seems easier. As far as like the mental hurdle, right. You come up with a couple questions, you do a little background research about that person. Hopefully, you know, a little bit. A little bit, right. And then you kind of let the interview take it from there. So I think for people who are just intimidated by the thought of, you know, creating a script, getting on a teleprompter, doing all those things that, that for a lot of people, it doesn't seem hard for us, but we do it all the time. I think for some people, just interviewing someone is a lot easier.

[Steve Chu]

You know, what's funny about that statement is I once had A conversation with Andrew Udarian. He runs the E Commerce Fuel podcast, and he feels the absolute opposite. He says it's much more work to have someone on the show than it is for him to just do a solo.

[Tony]

He does so much more prep than us.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, he's got to. He says he's got to do prep on the person. He wants to make sure he asks probing questions. He wants to make sure that he's not asking the same questions that all these other interviewers have already asked him. So I can see that. Like when. When I had Cialdini on the show, which is someone that I really admire.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

I spent a hell of a lot of time listening to a whole bunch of his interviews, making sure I could extract out different nuggets that weren't covered yet.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

So it just depends. I mean, everything requires work, and I guess it just depends on your skill set. Right. If your skill set just happens to be interviewing, you still have to do the research. But I can see it being easier. Like, for me, it's much easier to interview someone than it is for me to come up with the script. Like, if you asked me to talk 40 minutes about something, I think I would die.

[Tony]

Well. And I think so. I listen to Chalene a lot, and she does primarily solo podcasts.

[Steve Chu]

Right.

[Tony]

And I know, like, just you. When. You know, when you follow her, you understand that she. She records podcasts, like, in the back of Ubers while she's on her walks. Like, so she probably doesn't have a ton of notes. Right. Although I think she definitely has an outline.

[Steve Chu]

She probably has an outline, but she can talk for 40 minutes straight. She can be interesting.

[Tony]

Yeah. And I feel like I could probably talk for 40 minutes with an outline and. And not struggle. So I do think there is, like, a. Not a. Just probably an innate ability to. To have an easier time with that. However, I do think, like, when you do a solo podcast, you. You have to at least have those talking points. You at least have to say, I want to cover these five things because I've listened to podcasts where it doesn't seem like someone had those, and they're really, like, you have to be really funny or just really engaging to keep people on your rabbit trails. Whereas, like, Chalene, I find her funny and she's engaging, but she clearly has, like, six things she wants to get through. And sometimes she'll trail off. Right. Because she's in an Uber, so she has to get out of the Uber and whatever. But she always comes back to the point so you, you know. You know you're going to get all that in the 30 minutes or however long the podcast is.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, no, I. Chalene has got a gift.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

Of being just funny. I'm sure you're. I'm sure she has an outline.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

Eventually covers all of it, but then she tells these funny stories in between, like, off the top of her head, right?

[Tony]

Yes, yes.

[Steve Chu]

I don't have that gift, unfortunately, so I don't think I could pull it off. But, you know, I think you could. If that's your gift, then sure, you can do it.

[Tony]

So I think that there's something. I don't want to say safe, because I. I think that word's a little overused right now. But I think there's something about, like, thinking, oh, this is just a podcast. And then, like, because we video every podcast that we record, but I never care that we're videoing the podcast. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not super worried about the video or like, obviously we have lights on. You know, we're dressed. But it's not like a video where I feel like the pressure is like, okay, I gotta get ready. I gotta. This. I gotta do that. With the podcast, I'm like, the. It's so much, to me, more informational than visual. So even if it was going on YouTube or TikTok, I don't think I would care.

[Steve Chu]

I think you're lying. As soon as this goes up on yout starts going up in YouTube, you're gonna do Rent the Runway again. You're gonna show up in some dress with your hair done. Remember, you used to do that for office hours. You used to always be in a different dress.

[Tony]

And then I realized they didn't care and it wasn't worth it. Also, I've been working on my house for, like, six months, so I'm constantly in, like, work clothes.

[Steve Chu]

I think that would change, like, if every episode started getting, let's say, even 10,000 views on YouTube. I'm pretty sure you would change. Hell, I might even comb my hair.

[Tony]

Or, you know, you might bust out that collared shirt.

[Steve Chu]

You know, on YouTube, I'm presentable usually. Like, I'll shower.

[Tony]

Yeah, I don't. You know, this is totally off topic, but I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would because I. So I tend to now consume content from people who are, like. Especially podcasters, who are, like, sitting on a couch, like, Indian style in what looks like their pajamas, recording. And so I don't Know, like if I was at an event speaking. Absolutely. Like, that's a different, that's a different game. But I, I've. Yeah, I've kind of softened my stance, I think, on some of that. Interesting. Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

Because once upon a time we had this conversation.

[Tony]

Yes, we did, we did, yeah.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah.

[Tony]

It also might be the fact that I'm in the attic like every four hours. So it's just like the level of inconvenience is really high.

[Steve Chu]

All right, so back to podcasting. You know, I do think that the podcast has had a tremendous effect on my life.

[Tony]

Yes. I wanted to get to this.

[Steve Chu]

Okay, well, let me hear what you have to say first and then I'll say my piece.

[Tony]

So what I think the benefit of the podcast, and we've seen this with some of our students. Right. Like David Crabel, we, who we talk about pretty frequently, had a. Has a podcast and the opportunities, and it's not a hugely popular podcast one. It's about the cottage food business. So there's going to be a limited audience to begin with. Right. Like, how many people are there in the world that are doing this? Under a hundred thousand probably or something like that.

[Steve Chu]

I have no idea.

[Tony]

Yeah, it's not a huge number. We're not talking about like the MBA or the Golden Bachelorette, where people, you know, we're getting millions of people who are like keyed into these things. So the amount of opportunities that I've just seen for him of meeting people, getting invited to speak at events, getting invited on other podcasts, and then using the podcast as a way to get introductions to people that you probably would not be able to get just with a website.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, I mean, that's certainly happened to our students. It's happened to me.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

I think it just takes even more patience to get a podcast up and running than any other medium.

[Tony]

Yeah, well, let's, I mean, let's talk about. For you. I mean, you started this. When did you start this podcast?

[Steve Chu]

I started in 2014. So this is my. Actually this is my 10 year anniversary of the podcast.

[Tony]

Look at that.

[Steve Chu]

It was at a time when podcasting was just kind of getting popular, I want to say. Yeah, and to prove my point, I hit the number two overall at one point when I first launched. That's how, you know. Yeah, that's how not competitive it was back then. I mean, I was only there for like two days, but still, you know.

[Tony]

But you made it.

[Steve Chu]

But I made it and I have a screenshot to prove it. And so during that time, I Think it was really easy to build, or much easier, I would say, to build. And sure, I was promoting it alongside of, you know, the blog and everything, which, again, that was the blogging heyday too.

[Tony]

Right.

[Steve Chu]

And that's how I was able to grow it pretty large today. I think if I started from scratch, assuming I had nothing else, I think it'd be very difficult.

[Tony]

I don't know about very difficult because I think you can leverage video, but it would be harder than it was 10 years ago, that's for sure.

[Steve Chu]

Well, what I mean by that is, so you're trying to promote a podcast on YouTube, and even though YouTube is becoming more podcast friendly, you still need a set of skills to, like, the video has to be in a certain way so that people want to watch it for a long time.

[Tony]

Right.

[Steve Chu]

And at that point, I think I would just start with a pure YouTube video designed for YouTube to build up that audience first and then maybe later start a podcast.

[Tony]

Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea. What I remember is that when you. Because I met you, like, right when you were starting the podcast, I think I was on one of your earlier episodes.

[Steve Chu]

You were definitely in the top 50, I think.

[Tony]

Yeah. And look where I am today. So anyway, when I met you, you know, we met in 2014, and then we were attending the same events, probably 2015, 2016, 2017. And I can remember specifically being in San Diego and I don't know what event we were at, whether it was fincon or Traffic and convert version or something like that. Social media marketing world. And having numerous people come up to you and say recognize you from the podcast.

[Steve Chu]

Yep.

[Tony]

Which I think now, like, for you, YouTube sort of taken.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah, it's taken over for sure.

[Tony]

But I think what it did is that, like, I remember walking the halls with you of these conferences and introducing yourself to people. People realizing that you had the podcast, like, having. Even if they'd never listened to it, knowing that you. And it giving you an immediate in with people that you might not have been able to have a conversation with or like, continue to interact with without the podcast.

[Steve Chu]

No, yeah, no, no question, no question. I was just. I was just talking about it from the standpoint of starting from scratch.

[Tony]

Yeah, much.

[Steve Chu]

You know what? The. The reason why I started the podcast was to actually meet people.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

Because I'm stuck in this office all day by myself. And for a long time it was actually a really good way to do it. And today, to a certain extent, it's pretty easy to do because I can get people to come on.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

But I think over the years, people coming on podcasts has become just so flooded. Like, you should see my inbox, actually. You do see my inbox.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

How many.

[Tony]

Yeah, you get a lot of those.

[Steve Chu]

Multiple a day, wanting to come on the podcast. And it's gotten to this point now where, like, even when people ask me to join on their podcast, I've been saying no to everyone. Yeah, right. Because, you know, there's. It's. It's an hour of my day and this podcast, unless they quote some readership or listenership, I should.

[Tony]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Chu]

I'm not going to go on because it's been so jaded. Whereas back in the day, I probably would have gone on anyone's podcast.

[Tony]

Yeah, right.

[Steve Chu]

So that's changed a little bit over the years, too.

[Tony]

But what I also noticed was that last year at Seller Summit, which this was, this was definitely the highlight of my Seller Summit is that people didn't know who you were. They're like, who's Steve Chu? And I was like the Chinese guy on the main stage, actually.

[Steve Chu]

How do you find. How did those people find out about the Seller Summit?

[Tony]

So I went on a bunch of podcasts last year to promote Seller Summit. I don't know if you remember this. I went on E Commerce Fuel podcast and I went on it. I went on it one more. I don't remember which one it was. And so several people heard those podcasts and came to Seller Summit because they heard me on these other podcasts. So they didn't know who I was or you were. They just heard about it from a podcast. And this is where I think the podcast becomes impactful. Like, it's not cheap to come to Seller Summit. Right. Tickets are anywhere between 800 and 1500 dollars, depending on what kind of ticket you buy. If you don't live in Fort Lauderdale or South Florida, you've gotta pay for transportation, hotel. Like, this is a pretty big investment. And not knowing who either of us are, Right. And hearing a podcast for 40 minutes of me yapping. Right. They made a decision to come to Seller Summit based on, I think, one, whatever. I mean, I was talking about, like, e commerce and email marketing. So it was obviously related to what Seller Summit's about. But also the trust in whoever I did the podcast with. Like, obviously, Andrew's got a very loyal following, a lot of trust. And so, like, if Andrew endorses this, right, if he says, go to Seller, someone on the podcast, people will Make a buying decision just based on that because the loyalty runs so deep, whereas I don't think the loyalty runs as deep in other places. So I think that that loyalty that you build with the podcast because someone's listening to you for 40 minutes a day or 40 minutes a week, I think that does really affect the ability to, like, drive conversions on things.

[Steve Chu]

The way I think about events is you don't go to an event because of the host. Right. Like, think of all the events that I. That I go to or have gone to over the years. It has nothing to do with the hosts at all, actually. Right. You go for, like, who the sessions are or the people that you might meet.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

So I, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot more people that come to Seller Summit that didn't come or had never heard of me or you before.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

It's just the fact, I think, well.

[Tony]

We might get a bunch this year because Andrea just went to an event and promoted the heck out of Seller Summit.

[Steve Chu]

Oh, is that right?

[Tony]

To some disgruntled attendees. She's like, well, if you, if you don't like this event, I'll tell you an event you'll love. Yeah. I think people, definitely. No, one of most people don't event attend events for the person who owns the event, like, that's kind of silly. It is a little different because with Seller Summit, because you and I are both so involved. Like, we're speaking, we're, you know, it's not like we're just in the background. I noticed traffic and conversion was shutting down their event. Did you see that?

[Steve Chu]

No, I didn't.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

They're shutting down their event permanently.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Steve Chu]

Wow.

[Tony]

So. But, but I think, like, if you ever went, I mean, we've gone to a couple of traffic conversions. We didn't go there to hang out with Ryan Dice because you don't ever see him, you know, like, so I, I do think, like, events like ours and E Commerce Fuel are different. Right. In that it's more of like a community based event versus a, you know, come meet the speaker and, you know.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah.

[Tony]

Hang out. Although we hang out, but it's. It's not the same. So. Yeah. Anyway, I just think that the, the podcast, you, you can build such a loyal following with the podcast if you do it right.

[Steve Chu]

So I've been kind of playing devil's advocate this entire episode.

[Tony]

Yes, you have. Debbie Downer again.

[Steve Chu]

Well, no, I'm just trying to be realistic. Like, if I have a finite amount of time and I Want to start something? I think I'm still going YouTube first.

[Tony]

We. We know, we know. Can I just buy you a shirt for Christmas? This is YouTube first. And you can just wear it.

[Steve Chu]

Like, if you. If you went back to 2014 today, I would start the channel over the podcast.

[Tony]

Well, yes, because then you would have 10 million followers.

[Steve Chu]

Yes, I would. And it's nothing to do with podcasting itself. It has to do with proliferation.

[Tony]

I agree.

[Steve Chu]

And the amount of exposure versus the effort. Right. If you want to meet people and you want to like Joe Rogan, he kept going on when he had no listenership.

[Tony]

Mm.

[Steve Chu]

And then, you know, good things started happening when they discovered that he was having these great conversations with people.

[Tony]

Also, you think about the fact that, like, it's a three hour podcast.

[Steve Chu]

Yeah. Which was ridiculous back in the day.

[Tony]

Absolutely. And especially when you consider, like, the attention span of people is like 15 seconds. The fact that he's been able to, you know, basically create these hours and hours long content, like, it's pretty phenomenal.

[Steve Chu]

And he was just doing it for fun, to hang out with people, which, ironically was my first impetus. Like, I never thought I'd make money with the podcast, to be honest with you. It was my way of meeting people and. And chatting with people that were inaccessible.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Steve Chu]

But meeting your goals, that still works today. Hope you enjoyed this episode. If you plan on starting a podcast this year, let us know in the comments. For more information and resources, go to my wifequitterjob.com episode 580. Once again, tickets to the Seller Summit 2025 are now on sale over at sellers summit.com if you want to hang out in person in a small intimate setting, develop real relationships with like minded entrepreneurs and learn a ton, then come to my event, go to sellersummit.com and if you're interested in starting your own e commerce store, head on over to my wife, quitherjob.com and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just type in your email and I'll send the course right away via email.