628: The Amazon Listing Mistakes That Are Killing Your Conversions (And How to Fix Them) With Daniela Bolzmann

Summary

Podcast Summary: The My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast with Steve Chou

Episode 628: The Amazon Listing Mistakes That Are Killing Your Conversions (And How to Fix Them) with Daniela Bolzmann
Aired: March 4, 2026
Guest: Daniela Bolzmann, Founder of Mindful Goods

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, host Steve Chou talks with Amazon listing optimization expert Daniela Bolzmann, founder of Mindful Goods, about the pitfalls and mistakes that many brands—both large and small—make with their Amazon listings, and how to fix them for higher conversion. Daniela provides in-depth strategies, real-world examples, and actionable frameworks for optimizing the creative, images, SEO, and conversion elements essential for 7- and 8-figure brands. They also discuss the role of AI, split-testing, and user-generated content in modern optimization.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Daniela’s Backstory and Mindful Goods’ Evolution

• Transition to Amazon Focus: Daniela shares that after exiting her tech business, she wanted to specialize and found her zone of genius in Amazon PPC, creative, and SEO content optimization for product detail pages (PDPs) and storefronts.
• Business Pivot Post-COVID: Mindful Goods went from a retainer-based full-service agency to a project-based focus on Amazon creative, due to pandemic-driven shifts in client needs ([03:26]–[07:00]):

  “Overnight, we had lost all of our business and within 30 days we had tripled our business. So we just never went back to the old model.” — Daniela Bolzmann ([06:42])

• Current Clients: Primarily 7- and 8-figure brands, working on volume, strategic creative projects, with some retainer exceptions.

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2. The Biggest Amazon Listing Mistake: Repurposing DTC Creatives

• Copy-Paste Approach: The #1 mistake at all brand levels is copying creative (images, assets) from DTC sites like Shopify onto Amazon without adapting for Amazon’s unique environment.

  “The number one, number one thing that I see is a copy-paste approach… It should suffice, but it doesn't.” — Daniela Bolzmann ([07:57])

• Why It Fails: Amazon shoppers face distraction—competitor ads, noise, and lack of focused attention—making DTC creative less effective.

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3. Optimizing the Image Stack: Stand Out or Be Ignored

• Standard Shopify Images: Pure product beauty shots or flat lays are not enough; images must show and tell, not just show ([12:21]–[13:22]).
• Main Image (Hero) Optimization:
  • Analyze category competitors for differentiation.
  • Use variations like angle, presence of hands, implied motion, or showing multiple SKUs.
  • Employ AI to generate multiple main image concepts for split testing.

  “Something as subtle as [a hand coming into the frame] can totally catch the eye when nobody else is doing it.” ([13:37]–[14:14])

  • Use badges or overlays (on the product—not the white background) to communicate size, key features, or claims directly in the image.

  “What if we know as a brand that people that buy this product are mostly concerned if it's going to fit specifically for Spirit Airlines… put a badge… that says ‘Spirit airline approved.’” ([17:31]–[18:13])

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4. Storytelling and Answering Objections with Supplemental Images

• Use the full image stack (beyond the main image) to sequentially answer the top buyer questions—features, benefits, sizes, compatibility, founder story, or trust signals ([20:28]–[22:09]):

  “If you can do a great job of making sure that you know the priority of those questions… and you can prioritize your image stack… you’re setting yourself up for success.”

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5. The Power of Video and UGC

• Non-Negotiable Video:

  “Listings with video have 20% increase in sales according to Amazon.” ([22:21])

• UGC Is King: UGC (User Generated Content) is easier, more effective, and more scalable for Amazon than highly produced video. Use platforms to source quick and authentic videos ([22:21]–[23:59]).
• Repurpose Micro Content: Stitch together multiple brief user clips—unboxing, tutorial, comparison, testimonial—to build narrative and social proof.

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6. Advanced Amazon SEO and Research (VOC AI, Data Dive)

• Review Mining (VOC AI): Extracts insights, reveals buyer priorities, gaps in competitor listings, and informs creative focus ([24:29]–[27:13]).

  “We noticed that this baby brand, their products actually helped the… parents were saying this product helped the baby sleep. All the competitor products didn't say this… so we can play that up.” — Daniela

• Data Dive: Prioritize high-reach, high-intent keywords in titles. Use features like “Battle of the Titles” to systematically out-optimize competitors in the title field ([27:13]–[30:18]).
• Creative—Keyword Synergy: Pair those insights from review mining with keyword research to build targeted, conversion-optimized creative briefs ([29:23]–[31:39]).

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7. A+ (and Premium) Content: The Underutilized Conversion Booster

• A+ Content Has Massive Upside:

  “We've seen up to a 1,080% increase in sales just from basic A plus content.” ([32:09])

• A+ as ‘Stop the Scroll’ Content: Last content section before reviews—should convert fence-sitters, not just keyword-stuff or list features ([32:29]–[32:54]).
• Unlocking Premium A+: Seller Central brands can unlock it with five (even duplicate) A+ submissions, enabling a mobile-optimized, carousel/video-rich experience ([32:54]–[35:02]).

  “You need to wait about a week. Should unlock premium A plus content… gives you a seamless scroll very similar to a landing page takeover.”

• Ladder of Impact for Changes:
  • Title: Quickest win, up to 990% increase
  • Main/Product Images: Up to 547% increase
  • A+ Content: Up to 1,080% increase (but hardest to execute)
  • Combined effects: Seen up to 2,500% increase! ([35:54])

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8. Bullet Points, Titles, and User Behavior

• Bullet points are secondary to the title and images—make key benefits “skimmable.” ([41:07]–[41:58])
• Prioritize urgent buyer info upfront, saving secondary details for bullets or A+.

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9. AI-Enhanced Content: Use Responsibly

• AI Use-Cases:
  • Generating creative options
  • Filling “content gaps” (e.g., changing packaging or adding missing models)
  • Accelerating ideation—but not one-click generation for entire listings ([43:27]–[47:36])
• Where AI Falls Short: Final outputs must be authentically on-brand and trustworthy—obvious AI elements can lose buyer trust (e.g., “AI woman” on supplement page) ([47:36]–[47:59]).
• AI + Human Split Testing: Always validate with human eyes using split testing (e.g., Pickfu) to ensure authenticity and conversion ([48:33]–[52:05]).

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10. Testing and Validation with Pickfu

• Essential for Main Image and A/B Testing:

  “We always use split testing as we're creating designs… sometimes you need to get data back quick into these feedback loops and you don't have time to wait for manager experiments on Amazon.” — Daniela ([48:40])

• Human Feedback Beats AI For Nuance:
  • E.g., Adding “Vegan” to packaging based on repeated comment feedback increased CTR by 11.8% ([51:32])
• Daniela’s Pickfu Advocacy:

  “I made it part of our process… and since then I just made it part of our design process at Mindful Goods. So we always use split testing as we're creating designs…” ([49:09])

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11. Who Mindful Goods Works With

• Ideal Clients: 7- and 8-figure brands who “believe their products should be in the world” and invest in visual storytelling ([52:27]–[54:47])
• Selective Screening: Only about 20% of inquiries proceed to projects—brands must value high-end content and ongoing iterative optimization.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Give them what they want really easily.” — Daniela, on using image badges to call out key selling points ([18:13])
• “Video used to be challenging. I think the way to go with video right now still is UGC… so easy to repurpose and you can repurpose it in so many different ways.” ([22:19])
• “If you're a Seller Central brand… Amazon has given access to [Premium A+ content]… you could literally put a placeholder in the brand story section… duplicate, submit, duplicate, submit… do that five times… It should unlock premium A plus content on your account.” — Daniela ([32:54])
• “Of all the things you could do to your listing, the lowest lift is going to be the titles. The second lowest lift is going to be your main image… A plus content will show the highest gains, but it is the highest lift.” ([35:10])
• “I've seen people try to do like a one click and it creates all your product images. A one click and it creates all your A+ content. …I don't feel confident in anything that we've created to sell to anyone today.” ([44:48])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Daniela’s Journey & Agency Pivot: [03:26]–[07:00]
• Biggest Amazon Listing Mistake: [07:57]–[09:52]
• Shopify Creative vs. Amazon Images: [11:16]–[16:09]
• Image/Badge Examples & Differentiation: [13:22]–[21:16]
• Storytelling/Objection Handling in Images/A+: [20:28]–[22:09]
• Video & UGC Strategy: [22:10]–[23:59]
• Tools for UGC at Scale: [23:35]–[24:04]
• VOC AI & Data Dive for SEO: [24:29]–[30:18]
• A+ Content Tips & Ladder of Impact: [32:00]–[36:26]
• AI in Listing Creation—Pros, Cons, Ethics: [43:27]–[47:59]
• Pickfu/testing process: [48:33]–[52:05]
• Mindful Goods client profile: [52:27]–[54:47]

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Final Takeaways

• Adapting content for Amazon—not recycling DTC assets—is critical for conversions.
• Optimize every creative touchpoint systematically (main images, titles, image stack, A+, video).
• Use research-driven insights (from reviews, data tools) to identify real buyer priorities.
• AI can enhance creative brainstorming, but the final word—and trust—belongs to human input and real user feedback.
• Split-testing (e.g., Pickfu) is essential for catching what shoppers care about most.
• The combination of strategic creative investment and data-driven refinement differentiates listings that quietly bleed sales from those that scale.

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For case studies or to connect with Daniela Bolzmann, visit Mindful Goods Co or find her on LinkedIn.

“If you haven't updated your Amazon listings in a while, then re-listen to this episode and follow Daniela's playbook.” — Steve Chou ([55:13])

Transcript

[Steve Chou]

Welcome back to the podcast, the show where I cover all the latest strategies and current events related to e commerce and online business. In this episode I sit down with Daniela Boltzman, Founder of Mindful Goods, to talk about what actually separates high converting Amazon listings from the ones that quietly bleed sales. We dig into why repurposing your Shopify creative on Amazon is one of the most common and costly mistakes that sellers make and walk through the exact frameworks Daniela uses to optimize main images, titles and a content for seven and eight figure brands. But before we begin, I want to let you know that tickets for Seller Summit 2026 are now on sale [e-mail] and if you sell physical products online, this is the event that you should be at. Unlike most events that are filled with high level fluff and inspirational stories, Seller Summit is all about tactical, step by step strategies you can actually use in

[Jonathan]

your business right away.

[Steve Chou]

Every speaker I invite is in the trenches. People who are running their own e commerce stores, managing inventory, dealing with suppliers and scaling real businesses. No corporate execs and no consultants. Also, I hate large events so I intentionally keep it small and intimate. We cap attendance and around 200 people so you can actually have real conversations and connect with everyone in the room. We've sold out every single year for the past nine years and I expect this year to be no different. It's happening April 21st to 23rd in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and if you're doing over 250k or $1 million in revenue, we also offer a private mastermind for high level sellers. Right now tickets are the cheapest they're ever going to be, so if you want in, go over to sellersummit.com and grab your ticket.

[Jonathan]

Now on to the show.

[Steve Chou]

Welcome to the My Wife Quitter Job Podcast.

[Jonathan]

Today I'm excited to have Daniela Boltzmann on the show. Now Daniella was introduced to me by a good friend, Ritu Java and Daniela is the founder of MindfulGoods Co where she helps Amazon sellers with Amazon listing optimization and branding and her female led agency has had their work featured in many case studies by Amazon and they provide a done for you service that makes your products stand out and sell. She's also spoken at many events including Amazon Accelerate and as we all know, Amazon is getting more and more competitive every year. So today I invited Daniela to come on the show to talk about how to make your Amazon listing stand out in a sea of competition. And with that, welcome to the show.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Oh thank you for having me. My Favorite topic. I'm excited to be here.

[Jonathan]

I thought we were going to talk about tennis, actually.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

But second favorite topic, actually, I've been getting into paddle. Now, do you play paddle?

[Steve Chou]

No.

[Jonathan]

What?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Is that it? Padel. Some people say padel. It's, it's, it's kind of like. What is it that they play in the States? Pickleball. But it's pickleball. It's like pickleball but with glass walls behind you. So it's like, yeah, it's really, really fun. It started in Mexico, spread to Europe. It's more popular than pickleball in Europe. And it's, it's a lot of fun. And I love tennis. I play tennis like three times a week, but I'm really into paddle as well.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

I can't get into pickleball as much because it's not as much of a workout for me, which is why I like tennis the best.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

All right, Danielle, for those of the people listening who do not know who you are, how did you get started with E Commerce and what's the backstory? Why Amazon?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Oh, it's a great story. So I'll try not to bore everyone, but my background is in marketing and tech. I had a, a tech business before this, and I exited that business and realized that I was a burnt out founder. And I had 10 years of marketing experience under my belt at that point. But I was more of a Jill of all trades. I could pick up things really quick, I could do a little bit of coding, I could do a lot of everything. And I really wanted to specialize in one area. And E commerce had always been very interesting to me. So when I had kind of dabbled, I was trying to decide between focusing on D2C or focusing on Amazon. Around that time, Amazon had acquired Whole Foods. And I was fortunate enough to have a family business that was in cpg. And so I had asked my aunt if I could learn Amazon, you know, with some of their products, and she gave me the go ahead. Soon as I did that, I realized what a big learning curve it was, and I made it my goal to start helping other founders to do that. And at the beginning I just said, you know what, I'm a marketer. I will learn this stuff, but I'm going to learn it alongside you. So I did that. And after the first couple of years, I realized that I was pulling my hair out and there was so many pieces of this that I was never going to be an expert at everything. And so when I did Some reflection. I looked back and I said, you know what? Of all the brands that we've worked with thus far, of all the things that we've done for these brands, the piece that brings me the most joy and, and that becomes my zone of genius is really the creatives, the SEO and that's on PDP and Storefront. So it was just this one specific lane that I decided to double down on and which was a very difficult decision at the time. Right, Because I had started a full service agency. I had retainer clients paying me 5 to 10k each per month. So it was a, it was a pretty healthy way to live. And, and I was basically saying I want to forego that safety to just focus on projects and, you know, project based work to help more brands. Right. A little bit more volume. And I didn't pull the trigger right away. It was like right before COVID I was deciding if I was gonna do this and there was a lot of brands coming to us that really wanted to work with us, but they couldn't afford retainers. So I said, why don't we just work on your creatives and help you get your listing up so you can generate some cash flow, um, and then you guys can start your ads and see how things go and then you can level up over time, you know. And so we did that with a few brands. Covid hits Our clients that are on retainers need to get out of their retainers, understandably, to help manage their cash. We let all of them out of retainers. We flipped our website and just said that we're now just doing creative projects because what I saw was all of the retail shops closing their doors and now all of these brands need to start selling on Amazon. And so overnight we had lost all of our business and within 30 days we had tripled our business. So we just never went back to the old model. And that's still what we do today. And we're just fortunate enough to do it with now mostly seven and eight figure brands that are, you know, a little bit further along. But equally, you'd be equally surprised at the plateaus that they hit and how their content can go stale. So even the biggest brands in the world have this problem.

[Jonathan]

So you're completely project based now. So that implies there's not that recurring revenue or they do, they just keep coming back for more.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Is that we do have brands that repeat. We do now have larger clients that do enter into retainers, but our retainers are by invite only. So if we have a good experience with a brand and they have a catalog big enough to support us working together for, you know, at least six to 12 months. We'll have that discussion and, and we'll work with them if it's the right fit.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

Love it.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

So for everyone listening out there, I know a large percentage of them are on Amazon. And so what I want to start with is by just kind of addressing some of the common mistakes that you see. I know that you've worked with large brands and I know you've worked with smaller brands as well. So what are some of like the mistakes that you see almost everyone making, whether they're big or small?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Pretty much across the board. The number one, number one thing that I see is a copy paste approach because a lot of times you invest some money initially to get some creatives for your Instagram that you then use on your Shopify that you then try to repurpose for your Amazon. Whereas when someone goes to your Shopify site, you pretty much have their undivided attention for a certain set of time, right? There's not a whole bunch of advertising distracting them. And so you would think you could take the same creative and bring it over to Amazon. It should, it should suffice, but it doesn't. We need to be thinking through how we can get their attention and keep their attention all the way down the page with all of these different distractions that are going on on Amazon in terms of your competitors advertising on your page. And so it's just a different lens, a different strategy that you need to think through. But that's probably the most common mistake that I see. And it is still happening with the largest brands. And I'll tell you the problem that is happening on the large side of brands. And I mean, like, we're working with some of the biggest ones in the world right now. And they have full ecom teams, right? Full budgets, full production, full in house teams that can do this stuff. But there's a little bit of a learning curve associated with it. There's very few team members in house that are completely dedicated to Amazon. Amazon is still considered the ugly stepchild. There's not a huge dedicated budget thrown at a launch strategy for Amazon, a growth strategy for Amazon. Usually all the focus and a majority of the budget is going to the D2C side. And so what we are focused when we're working with brands like that is trying to make those team members the internal champions, right? We want to show them wins as quickly as possible. We want to show their Teams. What can happen if we just put a little bit more attention in the right direction on Amazon? A little bit more attention with intention, you know?

[Steve Chou]

Have you ever wondered what your business is actually worth? Well, I've worked with Quiet Lake Brokerage for over a decade, and one thing that I learned over the years is that most sellers wait way too long to find out the answer to that question. When I sold one of my businesses through them, I was surprised by how little I knew about what it actually takes to prepare a business for sale. And Quiet Light doesn't just list businesses and hope for the best. They prepare them properly. And the difference in the outcome is huge. Buyers are looking for very specific things. If your financials aren't clean or if your documentation is a mess, you're leaving serious money on the table. And most sellers have no idea what those things are until it's too late to fix them. And I've watched this play out across multiple deals. Now, getting a valuation isn't really about the number. It's about understanding what makes your business valuable to someone else and what's currently killing that value. And that information is worth having whether you're selling next month or in five years. Now, I've trusted Quiet Light with my own businesses. And if you're building something, you might want to exit someday. Talk to them right now, find out what needs fixing while you still have time to fix it, and go over to quietlight.com for a free valuation.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

That's kind of our whole goal, is working alongside those teams to make their process easier, make it so that they can do these launches easier, make sure they're using the content in the right way and, and kind of streamline that process for them going forward.

[Jonathan]

Walk me through an example of something a creative that you use on Shopify that would not work on Amazon.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

So when you're looking at a Shopify page, you're typically looking at like, let's say like a flat lay you might have. Let's use. I was just on Baze Luggage website, right?

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

They have these like stunning imagery that is like of all the product shots, right? So the product would be like on the suitcase with the trolley handle on it. You would show the suitcase open, the suitcase closed, close up shots of the pieces. Now you would still use that on Amazon. The problem is that if you were to use that in your product images and you were just to use those images, oftentimes, one, they're not using all the images, first of all. The second thing is they're just uploading those images as is, with no text layovers, nothing interesting about it. And so while the customer might click through it, you're not telling them anything, you're just showing them something. Right. And so their eye is going to look at it for a minute and just go to the next shiny object. And oftentimes we need to be showing and telling at the same time so that we can effectively increase conversion. So that's kind of the, the basic, basic thing that you have to be doing on Amazon. Yeah.

[Steve Chou]

Extra images.

[Jonathan]

Not. Not the main image. Right. Because you're not allowed to use text in general. Right.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

On the. Yeah. On the other product images in the product image stack, the main image itself, you wouldn't really play around with it that much. Probably on your DTC website, you'd probably have just like a really pretty Hero shot product on white, or maybe not. Maybe it would be a background. But on Amazon, when people search for your product and see that product show up in the search results, there's. You're competing against immediately like 20 images in that. In the upper part of your screen. Right. And a bunch of them are going to be advertisements. Um, but then there's a bunch of organics that are going to show up and your product needs to stand out. And so there's so many little things you can do here or there to tweak how that image is showing up in the search results and try to get more clicks by playing around with that. And that's basically one of the lowest hanging fruits that most brands can take advantage of.

[Jonathan]

So using that suitcase example, since it's kind of fresh in your mind, what would you have changed about that image? So it sounds like you saw a flat lay of the suitcase, which is pretty, pretty standard for a Shopify store. How would you have changed that for Amazon? Like the Hero.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Let's start with the Hero. Yeah. So a Hero image, there's a couple different approaches that I would take to it. Right. So one, I'm. What I'm looking for is what's going on inside the category. So I'll go look at all the competitive set and then what is going on in other categories that are more competitive. If I were redoing the main images for Base, for example, what I would be looking at is what is going on inside of their category, but also what is going on outside their category and maybe other competitive categories. What are people doing that we can get some ideas from? We go through an ideation jam session, but we don't want to limit ourselves to creating Just one or two options. Right. So what we have done is we've taken some of our top performing main images that we've done across lots of different categories and we've trained an AI to basically create a bunch of different main images based on the one product image we're dropping in from a brand. So it might come up with someone holding the handle and like maybe pushing the suitcase into the frame. So you'd imagine kind of like a hand coming in into the frame. Right. And so something as subtle as that can totally catch the eye when nobody else is doing it. Another thing that we might do is we might play around and figure out like, how are we showing that it has multiple colors? How are we showing that it has multiple sizes? Are we playing with the angle of the suitcase? Does, does an angle make a difference in terms of what people are looking at first? So if all the suitcases are straight on, what happens if we put ours at an angle? If all of the suitcases are straight on, what happens if we show someone leaning it and pulling it out of the frame? Or it's just thinking through all of those little elements. So that's angle orientation. Hands. No hands.

[Jonathan]

One thing that I noticed on Amazon is almost every image looks the same after a while because I'm pretty sure it's just people copying stuff. Right?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah.

[Steve Chou]

I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about a free resource that I offer on my website that

[Jonathan]

you may not be aware of if

[Steve Chou]

you are interested in starting your own online store. I put together a comprehensive six day mini course on how to get started in e commerce that you should all check out. It contains both video and text based tutorials that, that go over the entire process of finding products to sell all the way to getting your first sales online. Now this course is free and can be [e-mail] free. Just sign up right there on the front page via email and I'll send

[Jonathan]

you the course right away.

[Steve Chou]

Once again, that's mywifequitterjob.com free.

[Jonathan]

Now back to the show.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Part of it, part of it is yes, being different. The other part of it is how we can get Rufus and the algorithm to pick up on what it is that we're doing. So are we putting in some high intent keywords in, in really tricky ways? Right. So sometimes you'll see like a hang tag on something that obviously is not a real hang tag, but it's a digitally enhanced hang tag that might have your high intent keywords on that hang Tag. So for instance.

[Jonathan]

Okay, wait, walk me through that.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, yeah. So for instance, if I'm trying to buy a base bag, okay, I know exactly what size I need that I'm looking for. When you buy a suitcase, you know what size you're looking for. You don't want to see all of the large suitcases when you're just looking for a carry on. That's probably one of the more frustrating things, right? But it's the same context of a mom who might be looking for snacks, right? If a mom is looking for snacks for her kids lunchbox, she doesn't want the, the big box of popcorn. She wants the individual snack size popcorn, right? So what's the easiest way to communicate this to the shopper? It's by having some of those high intent keyword words in some way. So if you had a suitcase that was taking up the frame and you put a fake label on top of the suitcase that says 18 inch.

[Steve Chou]

Interesting.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

You know, whatever it's called. Roller. What is it called? What did I say? 18 inch roller handbag or you know, and then you know, you gotta figure out what your main keyword is there. But the other thing that you'll, that you can do is when you're doing your keyword research and this could be a secondary image you want to be figuring out, like what are the questions that, you know, people have about luggage and that they need to check off in their mind, right? Like one of the main things that we know people are curious about about luggage in general is, and this is like, it's personal for me because we have a big luggage brand that we work with. But also I'm actually shopping for luggage right now myself. And one of the things that I noticed in my behavior is that I just have to know if this one will specifically fit in the spirit airline little like size chart thingy, right? Because everyone hates when you're traveling. If you've been to Europe and you've used any of those budget airlines and you get pulled out of line because your carry on doesn't fit in their little thing. You know, this happened when I went to Iceland too. It's like it's got to fit in the little thing, right? And so you have to check those dimensions with the wheels, with the handle, with everything. And so what brands can do proactively if they know that is a question? They can either put that chart on there and be like, this is your airline. These are the dimensions. This check, check, check fits and this, this xxx doesn't fit. Right. And so it's thinking through all of those little details to make sure that all of those questions are answered in the shopper's mind. So going back to the example of the. Of the main image. What if. I want to know, what if. What if we know as a brand that people that buy this product are mostly concerned if it's going to fit specifically for Spirit Airlines, I might decide to put a badge on top of the luggage image, not on the white part, but on top of the luggage image that says Spirit airline approved. You know, and that way, as I'm seeing these images pop up in the search results, I, as a shopper, I'm like, oh, that one is Spirit airline approved. Boom. I'm gonna click on that one first. You know, it's like, give them what they want really easily. And so for a mom, the mom example, buying her snacks. I know I need the popcorn. I want the snack size. This is a 25 piece snack size. Great. If it says it right there, 25 piece snack size for kids lunch boxes. I'm like, I'm gonna click on that one because I don't want to click through these other examples if I don't know that they're actually snack size or if I don't know. That's the 25 pack.

[Steve Chou]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

You know, so I guess you can get away with this on the bag. Like, you can create like a fake label. Right. Like, like it comes that way. Right. And then insert all that information and you're saying AI is crawling. All that also. Right. It's absolutely image now.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Absolutely. And it'll show.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

I love that.

[Steve Chou]

Okay. And then.

[Jonathan]

And in terms of just filling out all the image slots, I. I know. I. I think I heard you on another interview about storytelling with the imagery and all those slots. Walk me through that with, with the bag example.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah. So a bag example, we want to think through what are the top questions that people are going to be asking about the luggage. Right. So one would be like the airline example. Another one might be the. The colorways that that it has. Another one might be all of the features that the bag has. So, like, if it has pockets, if it has the. The expandable piece, if it has any inserts, if it has, like, any. Any bonus items that come with it. There's a set of questions for every product that you should know your consumers are asking. Right. And if you can do a great job of making sure that, you know the priority of those questions, like, how many people care about this one thing versus another thing? And you can prioritize your image stack to answer those questions sequentially. You're setting yourself up for success. And so you would want to do that in your product image stack and in your A content. And through the rest of it, you want to add different, different details. Like, like badges, like badges for media are a great one if you want to build trust. Showing photos of the founder, if it's like, you know, some kind of a locally founded brand, telling the story behind the brand, if that's something that's really important, like there's always some sort of personalized details that you can infuse into this or some sort of narrative that you can convey to have people identify with the product in some kind of way. So you want to be thinking through that angle as well. Not just, not just, you know, info, info, info, info. It's a bit of info and a bit of personalization as you go.

[Jonathan]

So how do you feel about video on the listing you mentioned, founder story, do you recommend that everyone have some sort of video on their listing as well?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

100%.

[Jonathan]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Listings with video have 20% increase in sales according to Amazon. Video used to be challenging. I think that the way to go with video right now still is ugc. I think it's, it's, it's easy. You get a bang for your buck. You get potentially those, those creators posting on their platforms as well. You could tie it into a TikTok strategy, but that content is so easy to repurpose and you can repurpose it in so many different ways on your listings and in your advertising. So you can think through taking all of these little micro clips from multiple different UGC videos, piecing it all together in various different ways, not just in one way. Like one might be an unboxing video, one might be a comparison video, one might be here's how my pack, here's how I pack my suitcase video one might be, here's all the things I brought to Europe in this bag video, you know, like all of these different things and showing that multiple different people love this product. And here's all the reasons why in these videos. Right?

[Jonathan]

So what is your strategy for getting UGC at scale? Or maybe not at scale, but what's the strategy for getting UGC in the, in the simplest way possible?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

We use various different, different sites for like there's a bunch of platforms that are out there that have UGC creators that are already on there and you can pay 200 bucks for a video or 300 or 500 depending on what Specifically, you want. You send them the product and they'll do the video, and then you get the video back.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

Just for the listeners, are there any particular ones that you use for your agency?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

We do. I'm like, struggling to remember the name of it, so let me.

[Jonathan]

Okay, no worries.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And as you're looking for that, maybe we can. I'll just link those up. Maybe you can email them to me after. Just talk about just some SEO fundamentals, because I know with AI and Rufus and everything, things have changed a little bit. How would you set up your listing? Doing keyword research and everything now today.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

So our tried and true stack that we're using is VOCAI paired with.

[Jonathan]

So describe a VOCAI for the audience. It looks at reviews.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, so VOCAI does a number of different things. It's, it's. It's like many of these tools, many of them do many different things. But what we primarily use this one for is we'll put in an ASIN and it will. It'll take all the reviews and all of the data on the listings, and then it will distill it down into visual interpretations for us. So what that helps us do is kind of look at things like, numerically to figure out like. Like we were saying, what are the most important factors of this listing? What are the most important factors going on with the competitors as well, and where are the gaps within that? Right. So an example of this is we were working with a baby brand, and we noticed that this baby brand, their products actually helped the. All the parents were saying this product helped the baby sleep. All the competitor products didn't say this. And so this is one thing that is a. It's a gap because, yes, we know this as a brand, and obviously that's why we built it. But the fact that, that the parents are saying this and that it's not being said on the other listings is. Is huge. Right. So we can play that up. We could even show like, maybe some sort of like, clock that shows, like, how many hours the baby sleeping. You know, it's like, think about the pain that parents have when their baby's not sleeping and they're just like, they just want to sleep, you know, like that if they're looking for a product like this, it can be amazing. The other thing is that there was a gifting component to the ways that it was mentioned in gifting was not in line with how everybody else was mentioning in gifting in that category. So just, you'll notice different things as you as you start to just kind of sift through and take in the data and you can say, okay, what happens if we play that up a little bit more and lean into that a little bit more. So that's one reason why I like looking at vocai. You won't always find insights for everything, but it's a great place to start. Then on the, on the Data Dive side, what we're doing there, one of my favorite pieces is they have this thing called Battle of the Titles and that is something that I consistently say, if you're looking to optimize your listing and you're looking to get some quick wins, that's the number one place you should start, is with your titles. Because we've seen the largest gains with the shortest or lowest effort, right? So it's a very low lift activity. Imagine typing some keywords and putting that into your title and seeing sales overnight. That's essentially what can happen with some of these tests. So I always recommend starting there. But the reason why I like Battle of the Titles is because it forces you to look at your competitive set and try to increase your reach factor of your keywords in your title more so than theirs. Right? And so you can basically change a keyword here, change a keyword there, and then you'll see your score go up or down and you can compare that score to the competitors that you've put into the Data Dive system. And so doing that is just a really easy way. And the reason why I love this so much is because we had built our own internal calculator and we had been doing this for brands manually in a spreadsheet. And we'd be giving this to them with a video showing them like, here's how you play with the calculator. And now when Data Dive had been already doing this inside of their software, I was like, yes, finally. So we completely migrated to Data Dive primarily for that, but then within that they have a really simple niche dive as well. So you have like a one click system where you can go to your search page results, click on your product, add your competitors and it'll pull all of your data super fast into what they call their niche dive. And that'll help you start to figure out your whole keyword system like which are going to be your main root keywords that you're going to go after and you can start to basically have all your keywords live in this platform, right. And so you would take the two things, right? It's the insights from Vogue that kind of give you direction and then it's the, it's the keyword data that you're pulling from there. And in addition to any keyword PPC reports that you have, any brand analytics that you have from Amazon, like you would want to pull that and cross reference everything and make sure that you're bringing in the Amazon data that you do have. If you're already selling on Amazon, if you're not, then you would definitely want to lean heavily on something like a data dive tool. So you're not just launching into Amazon with very little keyword research.

[Jonathan]

It just seems like the, to me, at least the VOC AI is more useful for the creative generation as opposed to the keywords. Right. Does VOCAI turn up keyword that you can use in your title or I mean, data Dive does all that already, right?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, that would be more of a data dive thing. But I think in terms of like laying out your overall strategy, you would want to, to understand the two. Right? Because if you're looking at VOC AI and it's showing you certain trends around your product, then you might lean more heavily on those types of keywords that play into that trend. And if you pair that again with your PPC keywords and say like, it could be that your PPC team is only going after the gifting words in the beginning. Right? So they're going after the gifting words. We want to show more of the, not just gifting images, but more of more of the gifting images. Perhaps we would want to lean more heavily on what types of gifting actually matter in the category. And so it's really like looking at everything together and coming up with like a holistic strategy as opposed to just saying like, these are all my keywords. Let's go after everything at once because it's probably going to be less effective.

[Jonathan]

So I see. So you're using the review generation, the reviews from VOC AI to prioritize the keywords that you put in the front of your titles, thus overriding perhaps some of data dive suggestions.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Not necessarily. We definitely lean on data dive for that component. Where I would say we use VOC AI more heavily is for instance, one of the things that I do is I pull all of the. So yes, more on the creative side, but I will pull all of the reviews. I'll download the CSV, I will put that into some, you know, like a custom GPT and I'll ask it to build a, build us the avatars for this brand based on all of this data that we have. And then also build me the creative brief for this avatar specifically for Amazon. And so we've built that kind of a GPT that'll do that for us. And then from there, like, let's say the images say we want to have an image that says that talks about this and it shows this, and it says this. We want an image that talks about this, says this, and shows this. We would want to make sure that that's aligned with the PPC or the, the SEO strategy. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

Okay.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

And swap out some words here and there. Pull some of those data dive keywords, make sure it's in the copy that we're using, that sort of thing.

[Steve Chou]

It's actually been a while since I've

[Jonathan]

gone deep in the woods with data dive, but I remember there was a lot of discretion on your end in terms of the prioritization, you know, maybe choosing outliers in certain cases. I. I don't think I've tried that battle of the titles yet, so I'll have to go back and give it a try.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, that's a fun one. That's one of my favorite features.

[Steve Chou]

Okay, okay.

[Jonathan]

And then so you have your creatives. Can we talk about A plus content a little bit? Do most people you find scroll all the way down to the bottom and does it make a big difference?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

So A plus content is. There's two things I can share with you about A plus content. It is the. The point of which you can have the biggest gains on your listing. So we've seen up to a thousand 8% increase in sales just from basic A plus content. Not even talking about premium A plus content.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

So A plus content, the reason why it's so effective is because it's the last piece of content that people are going to see before they hit the reviews. So if you can think of it through that, through the lens of it's more important to stop the scroll here than it is to have a bunch of textual jargon. We don't want to be keyword stuffing here. We want to be stopping the scroll and tell them one or two more things before they hit those reviews so that they can buy. The goal should be to convert here. The other thing I will say is that most brands today that come to us still don't have their premium A content unlocked. If you're selling on seller central, this is something that is free and accessible. Right now I have clients today that are paying a half million dollars to have this turned on on one SKU on vendor central. And so. And that's per year, they have to pay that amount. So they have to have huge advertising budgets to even get access to this still, which I think is silly. That's a whole nother thing. But if you're a seller central brand as of like over maybe even two years ago now, Amazon has given access to brands it's very simple to unlock. The only requirements are that you have a brand story applied to all your and that you have submitted A plus content more than five times and that it's been approved. Now that doesn't mean you have to have more than one product. It doesn't mean that you have to have more than one set of A plus content. It doesn't even mean that you have to have A plus content designed or brand story designed. You could literally put a placeholder in the brand story section. You could put a placeholder image and you could put a placeholder image in your A content. You could submit it, see if it gets approved, make any changes. If it doesn't, once it's approved, duplicate submit. Duplicate submit, duplicate submit. You get the idea. Do that five times. Duplicate submit. You don't even need to redesign, change anything. Then it will unlock. You need to wait about a week. Should unlock premium A plus content on your account. The next time you click to enter your A plus content, it should say Basic A plus content, Premium A plus content, Brand story. So from that point you can design something nice and amazing. And the reason why you would want to do that is because it's actually giving you a seamless scroll very similar to a landing page takeover. It's giving you the ability to add hotspots. It's giving you the ability to add carousels, multiple carousels. It's giving you the ability to add full scale video and you'll have. The best thing is that you get to upload a separate set of mobile content so that you know, the 70% of shoppers that are on mobile are now looking at their own set of content, which is ideal.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

Right. So right now with just regular A plus content, what, what happens on mobile, it just, it just shrinks. It probably all down, right?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, it's not optimized at all. So. Yeah, but that's, it's such a quick fix really. So it's something that everybody should be doing if they haven't done it already. That's a high priority that I highly recommend. Yeah, but it is. Of all the things you could do to your listing, the lowest lift is going to be the titles. The, the second lowest lift is going to be your main image. Those are both going to show great gains and they can show great gains. And then your A plus content will show the highest gains. But it is the highest lift. It's the hardest one to do.

[Jonathan]

Well, sorry, I'm trying to just understand what you just said. So you're saying like the A plus content has the potential for the highest gains on your list?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, yeah. So I'll give you the breakdown. So, main image and product image stack you. We've seen up to 547% increase in orders.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

For, for SEO and title testing, we've seen up to 990% increase in orders. For A plus content, we've seen up to 10, 80% in orders increase. So they can each independently increase. The best is when you do it all together. Altogether, the highest we've seen together is a 2500% increase in orders.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

I would have thought that the title in your image stack would be the highest priority, like do. Because I always thought that people don't even make it down to the A plus, but I get it. If they're looking for the reviews, they have to scroll past it. Which implies that, like the images used in the A plus content have to like, grab you.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, I think there's also probably a. I, I don't know. My brain always goes to this dwell factor of like, how, like, I know we know Amazon's tracking this very similar to how social media companies will track, like how much time people are watching your videos, how much time people are liking your posts and that sort of thing. I would imagine that brands that are performing best are getting higher dwell factor. So, like by having interesting color palettes going on in the product images and all kinds of flashy images going on in those product images that are showing and telling people, stay on those images longer, swipe back and forth and check them all out. Right. But if it's not interesting, they're probably not going to finish swiping. They're going to click the button to just go straight down the reviews. But if it is interesting, you might actually increase the. The factor of people scrolling to look at the A plus because they know it's there and just to get a few more questions answered because they might still have a couple of questions that they didn't get answered. They might be looking for like, where is the answer to this? Right. And so they're either going to look for it in the A or they're going to start asking Rufus for it. And Rufus now displays the image that's associated with that answer. So if you know that people are asking Rufus about particular things, then you would want your imagery to answer that very clearly so that Rufus does serve it up in those scenarios.

[Jonathan]

So you're saying that this dwell time could be a ranking factor?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

I don't know if it's a ranking factor. I, I think it's probably associated with conversion. Like if, if people are digesting your content a little bit longer, they're likely more interested in your product and they're likely adding to cart and buying. But if they're, it's like, it's like if you think of a high bounce rate, if they're not, if they're not interacting or engaging with your content and they're just leaving and bouncing, then your conversion rate's going down. Right. So the whole goal is like, how can we increase that engagement factor? Like, how can we keep their attention? Which is already really hard to do on Amazon, but how can we do it right? So like, carousels of our, we did, we pulled like our best performing premium A plus content to see, like, what did they have in common? Like, is there something that we did there that we can say, we can lean into and say, okay, these are best practices we should do. And we kind of itemize, like, what are all the things that we may or may not have done with, with, you know, any set of A plus content? The only thing that every, all of them had in common was that we use carousels for every single one. And there is some sort of a bias on carousels that some people don't like carousels because they feel like, why would I want to take my, my people down a rabbit hole? I just want them to put it in the cart and buy. Yeah, right. But there's a difference between primary content and secondary content. And a lot of times your primary content, which is the first thing that people are going to see, we want that to answer the most direct questions that people have. If they're just looking to like, get it in the cart, like answer the question, get it in the cart. But there's, there's a whole nother set of buyers that probably want to, they like to spend time researching. They're looking for the best one. They want to know the secondary information. And so by having that information in the carousel. Yes, tucked away, but it gives them some more to digest and convinces them that this is the right product for them. Right. So that could be the different differentiating factor. There is like showing them why this is, this is right for them. Or showing them that it's easy to assemble in this amount of steps. Or showing them like what are all the, the things that you would want to break down in a carousel that would help people better identify and understand your product?

[Jonathan]

I can see this being very effective for a product that's a little more nuanced or complicated. Like, like the bag example, I could see A plus content being really worth it. Right. Or any electronics or anything that requires more research. Right.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Or anything that has larger catalogs and multiple use cases. So like if you have like there's certain brands, there's many brands that are coming out right now that have like 15 different products and they all have a use case. And so this gives you a chance to kind of break those down and really explain when you would want to buy one or the other a bundle. Right. So you could get into cross selling upselling products across the catalog by taking advantage of carousels.

[Jonathan]

What do you think about bullet points? Like, you know, usually when I sell these, when I buy on Amazon these days, I just kind of look at the images and maybe like a brief same look at the title and I just buy it. Right. So like if you were to prioritize all these, how would you do it?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Prioritize what?

[Jonathan]

Everything. Titles, image stack, bullet points, A plus content. Let's say, you know, you had a limited time.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

I know for me, yeah, I group the title and the bullets into the same category and I just look at it like, like primary and secondary content is the same way I look at, at title and bullets. So title is your primary, bullets is your secondary. Like you still have to lay out like the main five to 10 things in your bullets. And it has to be super easy to digest in just the first few words. So it has to be skimmable, you know, that sort of thing. But your primary heavy hitters are going to be in your title. And with A plus content, it's the same thing. It's primary and secondary content. Your primary content that answers the questions are going to be the first banners that people see top to bottom. Anything that requires a swipe is going to be secondary content.

[Jonathan]

And I, I just had this question that just came in my mind. Why are these brands paying $500,000 for premium A plus content when they could just use your five submission method?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Oh, that's on vendor central.

[Steve Chou]

Oh, vendor central.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Oh, people, vendor central. Then they are.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

And vendor central brands don't get access to it even today.

[Steve Chou]

Sorry, can you just explain to me

[Jonathan]

what the advantages of being on vendor

[Daniela Boltzmann]

central today, so vendor central. I think a lot of the larger brands are the ones that are still on vendor central because they have, they have a direct relationship with Amazon. And so for some of those brands, it makes more sense that Amazon would still buy their product and they just ship it off to Amazon. So it just, it just depends. And even some of those are even doing like a hybrid approach at this point. So yeah, I would say it's not the majority of the clients that we have. It's probably like 10 to 20% of our clients are vendor. But yeah, not all of them have premium. For most of them, we're pushing them to get access to premium because I personally think that they should, should have access. If seller central brands are getting it for free, it seems unfair that vendor centrals wouldn't get it and they're the ones spending the big advertising dollars. So.

[Jonathan]

Okay, you know, it's funny, before I hit record, we briefly chatted about AI generated content. But while we were talking, it seems like you are using AI for the images in a way.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Oh, absolutely.

[Jonathan]

Okay, so what can you clarify your anti AI or your reservations about AI content that we talked about before we hit record?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah, so, okay, so here's, here's my two cents on AI.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

One, I think everybody's, we're caught up right now in a new AI tool coming out every week and having to learn all of these different AI tools and how it's going to, you know, how, how we're going to make it happen for our business. AI can do so many things. So great. My team uses it every single day. We use multiple different tools. We're always trying to figure out the best and latest creative tools and as are any team right now, and as they should be. I don't think on the creative side that many AI tools are able to do anything in one click. It is a huge time suck, first of all. So we have found ways that it does make sense to use AI in certain scenarios. The second thing is, AI is awesome at creating these like whimsical, crazy things. Right. But in order to do that, if you still want it to be pixel perfect, it most likely won't be. It is going to require touching things up in Photoshop afterwards. So again, like, it is, it is. You can do almost anything you want to do in your imagination, but you have to know that that comes with a resource intensive time suck. Right?

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

All right, I got it. Yeah.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

And the other thing is, the other thing is like, I, I don't think AI is suitable for doing entire listings top to bottom. I've seen people try to do like a one click and it creates all your product images. A one click and it creates all your A plus content. We ourselves are trying, trying to break our own systems. I don't feel confident in anything that we've created to sell to anyone today. And I, I would and, and that's something like, just ethical, like I, I, I think that there's, we take a lot of pride in the quality that we put out there. And so if I'm going to put something out there, I want it to be something that's, that's better than you're going to get on Fiverr, at least, you know, or better, you know, like I, I want something that's like meaningful in that sense. And I don't think a lot of AI tools, especially the one click things that people are trying to pitch right now, are really there and that they're taking in the data that's required to create more of a strategic approach to doing listings well. So I think that that's a caveat. That being said, we have created listings that are full AI and nothing else and we've done it for just two brands at the moment where it made sense to do it for them. It was very specific products. I'm not going to say which ones they were, but in those scenarios it did make sense for the majority of brands. It doesn't make sense because you would look at the product and you would kind of subconsciously know that the content is just like off, like something's just not right. And then you lose that trust factor with the shopper and that's something that you have to take into consideration. It's the same thing of like when, when people started using renders for their imagery and Amazon didn't want people using renders because so many people were getting bad renders. And then you have things that just look horrible and then the customer receives something totally different and they're upset. And so we have to make sure that when we're adopting any of these tools that we're doing so responsibly and still showing what the customer is actually gonna receive. And that everything feels really authentic and true to the brand. And so where we're using it today is in a few different ways. We're filling in the gaps with any content that's missing. We are maybe taking the photo shot. Like there's a bunch of clients that have spent thousands of dollars on, on photo shoots and then they've changed their Packaging and that's something that we can place back into those images with AI and then touch up in Photoshop or we can just do with Photoshop. It just depends on the scenario. There's certain scenarios where we, we might want to place, play around with something that's not possible in a, in a photo shoot, or we might need models that we don't have available to us in a photo shoot and we might be in a time crunch. So in that scenario we would want to lean on AI imagery. I just don't think it's best to use it for everything, start to finish. For most types of products, it usually

[Jonathan]

takes me multiple iterations to come up with an AI image for like a meta ad, for example. And then recently I critiqued a student's website. They were selling ethically sourced supplements and, and it was an image of a AI woman which ruined it for me. Right. Like as soon as you see like an AI person that's obvious, you're, you start to question everything that's on the page. So 100% agree with you there.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

But if you couldn't tell that the woman was AI and it was done really well, then you wouldn't lose that trust factor. Right. But it's because you picked it up so quick. And so there's, there's things that you can use like pickfu to help determine whether people are noticing whether it's AI or not. Right. Like you could have easily put that, those images into a split test and, and ask people, like, which image do you like better? Don't even mention the word AI. But then see if people are like, I like this one because it's not AI. And if you notice the multiple people are catching that it's AI, it's like, okay, this isn't working. You know, we have to either do it better or do something different.

[Jonathan]

Since you brought up pickfu, let's give these guys a shout out here. So how are you using pickfu in your, in your agency?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

So I actually found Pickfu from your blog many, many years ago. So almost eight years ago. I want to say maybe between six and eight years ago. Long time. And I loved it so much for split testing main images that I immediately reached out to them and I told them, I was like, we have to get on a call. I am going to be your ambassador. We need to do videos together. More people need to know about this. And I like, they didn't have a choice. It's just like this is happening. Whether you like it or not, this is happening. I like, I made a video, I sent it to them and they were like, this is great. So we started doing videos together many, many years ago and since then I just made it part of our process at Mindful Good. So we always use split testing as we're creating designs because sometimes you need to get data back quick into these feedback loops and you don't have time to wait for manager experiments on Amazon. Like you don't have four to 10 weeks to wait for one split test. We need to get some sort of pre validation and what that does is it helps us understand maybe which main image might perform best on Amazon or which order our image stack should be or any little tidbits that we might have missed on our, on our A plus content that we didn't think to incorporate back into our design. So there's so many little insights that you can gain by running these split tests. So we just make that a part of our design process so that we are doing that for our clients.

[Jonathan]

I mean I personally found that real humans, so the trend right now is to just upload images to like AI and have them tell you which one's better converting. But I've always found like human responses are just way more nuanced and things that AI would just never tell you. At least that's just been my experience.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Also if we think about the, I do think things are going to go that way for sure and that's going to allow us to do even like more rapid testing without thinking about the financial cost as much. So I'm, I'm like a, I'm, I'm really into that as well in the, on the AI audience side. But I agree with you. There's certain insights that you get from the human element that you might not get from, from you know, an AI poll and there's certain specific ones that like instantly come to mind when I think about it. Like where it's, it's usually the questions that people have that are in their head that they then say in the comments, right? Like, yeah, like, like that might not come up in a, in an AI analysis but like one of the ones that, that, that I always remember is this one that we did with yes Bar and I think they're, they're actually their founders are based in your area as well. But they, they, we were testing main images for them and a bunch of people kept mentioning in the comments like is, are asking like is this product vegan? And we realized like, oh wow. We did not highlight the fact that it's Vegan. It is vegan, but it's like very small, like light type on the box. So we basically digitally enhanced the word vegan onto their packaging so that it was like big and bold. And one of the first things that you saw, and I mean there's a couple other things that we obviously did to the design. We included some close ups of the stacked snack bars and we enhance the colors a little bit and like, you know, our little wizardry tricks. And the click through rate on their listing went up by 11.8% within two weeks. And that's like, that's, that's like the power of playing around with this creative stuff.

[Jonathan]

That's something that AI probably would not have pointed out. Right. I mean, how would AI know that people are looking for vegan stuff?

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Yeah. In relation to this product. Right, Correct.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. So Daniela, where can people hire you or get help from you? And what types of brands do you serve? Like, do you have certain limitations or requirements? I should say not limitations.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Right. We're typically working with seven and eight figure brands that are a little bit more established at this point. We still do work with a handful of early stage brands every year. But it has to be the right fit. Like we're really passionate about working with brands that believe their products should be in the world for some reason or another so that we have great stories to tell as we're working with those brands. So if you think of like some of the most amazing direct to consumer websites that are out there right now, we are helping those brands bring that to life on Amazon.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

Because I know you have a pricing package page, right. Where you can just buy a package. Is that open to everyone or once you click on that package, you, that you get further screened.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

You get further screened. We. So I will, Danielle, I will say we, we do turn away like 80% of the business that comes our way is not a fit. Okay. So I know it's a bummer. I wish we could serve everybody, but we're really great at serving this specific type of clientele, these specific type of brands that have, that really believe in, in, in their content. Right? Like that invest in content. They want their product to look the best that it can possibly look on every single channel. That's who our dream customers are. Because they get it. They completely understand the value of content. And so we prefer to work with those founders. Anyone that's like not sure why somebody would pay three times the cost for a listing for us, just like it's not even a question. Like it's like the clients that we work with, they completely get it and we don't. We're not questioned. So you can find us at Mindful Goods Co and you can find amazing examples and case studies and we share everything. We have a whole metrics tab on our website that has our usually we're updating a few times throughout the year of all of our split testing data. We publish it all. I haven't seen any, any other agency doing that yet. So we're really passionate about helping founders manage their split tests, run their split test, using that data, iteratively improving throughout the year. And then we like to share those results in aggregate and in the form of amazing case studies from smaller and larger brands on our website. And if you're looking for our latest and greatest creatives that we're putting out or test results, we share almost everything on LinkedIn. So.

[Jonathan]

Nice.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

You can find me there.

[Jonathan]

So search for Daniela Boltzmann on LinkedIn or mindful.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Daniela Boltzmann. Yeah.

[Steve Chou]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

Well, Daniela, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[Steve Chou]

It's just a small world.

[Jonathan]

I'm actually going to play tennis with the founder of Pickfu and like right after this interview.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

They're great. I'm jealous. I'm jealous.

[Jonathan]

All right, thank you for coming on.

[Daniela Boltzmann]

Thanks for having me.

[Steve Chou]

Hope you enjoyed this episode. If you haven't updated your Amazon listings in a while, then re listen to this episode and follow Daniela's playbook. For more information and resources, go over to mywifequitterjob.com episode628 and once again, tickets to Seller Summit 2026 are now on

[Jonathan]

sale [e-mail] if you want to hang

[Steve Chou]

out in person in a small intimate setting, develop real relationships with like minded entrepreneurs and learn a ton, then come to my event.

[Jonathan]

Go to sellersummit.com.