Podcast Host (3:09)

Yeah, it's so much.

Jillian (3:11)

I could go on and on, but.

Podcast Host (3:12)

Yeah, I've heard you say. Actually, I read a statistic the other day about the divorce rate, which is getting. I think we're at maybe a 50% divorce rate heading, trending upwards, which is even more scary because I feel as though that there's so much on the line when it comes to divorce. You know, you think about it logically, take romance out of it, and you think, okay, we have to have the splitting or a divorce of our finances, our assets, maybe our kids. I think it's such a traumatic thing in itself. But then why is the divorce rate going up and why is it trending upwards?

Jillian (3:50)

I think it is trending upwards because people in today's day and age don't really honor the sanctity of a long term. I'm not going to say marriage because I just think that's an institutional thing. But the. We don't have a lot of really great examples of enduring love, like what it means to be with someone through thick and thin. And that does not mean, just to be clear, that you remain in something that is unhealthy, toxic, or abusive and in any way, shape or form. But let's put that to the side for a moment. It's really as hard as it is to get a divorce. People think, well, if it doesn't work out, then we'll just get a divorce. So people are entering these relationships with the back door very much in the forefront of their mind. Like, if it doesn't work out, we can just, we can just bail. And I think that people are really losing an understanding of what commitment is. And like I said, you don't commit through there. It. You have to have a standard and that is, you know, there cannot be abuse. And sometimes, yes, we do grow apart. And sometimes after a while, like, it's just, it's run its course. These things do happen. So I am not in any way because, like, people can really misread this. I'm not in any way saying just stay in a relationship because that's what you're supposed to do. But however, and people think, you know, oh, it's, you know, we're going through a rough patch, I'm out. And it's like, hate to break it to you, but the people who have made it many, many, many years, and they still love each other, they still sleep in the same bed, you know, they still hug each other, they still admire and respect each other. It's because they actually stay committed to each other through the hard times. And they didn't leave at the first sign of strife.

Podcast Host (5:49)

Hmm. I find it fascinating that. So I come from an immigrant background. My parents are from Cyprus. And, you know, a lot of our family is. So. They were. It was more so like an arranged marriage. And what I'm observing now, you know, in my 30s, it's. They're all married. My parents are still married. My aunts, my uncles, all still married. And they didn't, evidently choose in the. In. In. It wasn't for love. They didn't go out and say, oh, I'm. You know, it was more so, okay. The families met. And that seems to play a part in longevity in my.

Jillian (6:27)

Absolutely, absolutely. It's. You're not just committing to the person, you're committing to the relationship. You're not just committing to the relationship, you're committing to the family. And it's a value system. It's a value system that says, you know, I'm not. It's not about just finding the next shiniest object. It's not about, like, oh, grass is greener on the other side. It's. I have a commitment to building a family and to loyalty and to making things work. That's a value system.

Podcast Host (6:57)

That's hard to find sometimes.

Jillian (6:58)

Well, yeah. Well, it's also. People are finding it very hard to find within themselves.

Podcast Host (7:03)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I want to unpack everything because on this podcast, we speak about reaching physiological health. And it's become apparent to me now that this is a. A circle or a quadrant, if you will. We've got, you know, you've got your physiological health. That's, you know, you staying fit, you staying healthy, you've got nutrition, but you also have to marry psychological health. You have to marry emotional health. And oftentimes, especially on this podcast, I don't tend to focus too much on the emotional health because you don't think about that. You more so just think about health and body. But it's interesting because if I look at the cohort of my clients who are all, you know, well and truly, you know, married kids, the biggest stress they have comes from, you know, we've got kids. Not in a bad way. It's just that, Louisa, I didn't get much time to sleep last night because the kids woke me up or I got to go home, or the wife is doing this or the husband's doing this. So there's a lot of emotional and mental stress that happens from a marriage. And I heard you say something super fascinating, and it was related to divorces. And you said, there's a real. Or breakups. And you said there's really. The biggest reason that you've seen for people ending relationships is Stress.

Jillian (8:24)

So people think that they're, that their relationship or their marriage will improve once the stress reduces in their lives. When really it's how we react, the stress in our lives that ultimately improves the relationship.

Podcast Host (8:39)

So, okay, so let's, let's, let's unpack that a little bit. Is that because not many people go into a relationship thinking I have communication problems or you know, they, they often arise, unfortunately.

Jillian (8:54)

Unfortunately. I mean, we should all enter a relationship very humble saying, I have a lot to learn.

Podcast Host (8:59)

Yeah, but okay, what if we don't? Yeah, okay. And so small things start. So how does the stress start to build up?

Jillian (9:07)

Well, stress is really just like, look, if you are in a long term relationship or marriage and you have kids and all of that, of course there's going to be, these are, it's not that these are real stressors. Parents die, mental illness, physical illness, children, all these things. There's all these things that happen in the course of a person's life and in a, within the course of a person's life with another person that is indeed very, very, very stressful and certainly not sexy. But the goal of a relationship is to stay connected. And so there's going to be lots of reasons that, and excuses that anyone can give in a long term relationship why they can't be connected. You know, their job is like super, super stressful again or children. I mean, there's going to be things that are going to be thrown at you. And that's why to be in a long term relationship, you need a certain level of grit and resiliency and you've got to master what's up here in your brain, you've got to master your psychology because shit's going to get really real. And so what you have to do is recognize, okay, these are all the things that are happening and this is what we have to do whether we're in a relationship or not. By the way, life can be very hard and very stressful and one of the ways in which we have to take responsibility for our lives if we want to suffer less, because we are going to suffer, is learning how to face the uncertainty in our lives because it's going to be there. So I don't know. That's a therapist, that's a mentor, that's, that's working out all the time, you know, not all the time, every day that's, you know, maybe quitting your job and starting a new job. I mean, we're going to have to make so many decisions in life. You know, when we're going to have to make changes in our life to make things easier. And this is. These are the things that we have to do. So what I see happen a lot in these relationships is, oh, but I've been so stressed at work. And work's been like, you know, this and that. And, you know, it's. The stress is real. The stress is if I don't achieve at work, I'm worthless because my dad taught me from a very young age that, like, my identity is really wrapped up in the work that I do. Right. So this stress is not just. It's real and it. And it goes very, very deep. Some stress is so overwhelming because it strikes a chord within us that has to do with something that started in childhood. You know, we have a belief system that says that we have to achieve a certain way. We have a belief system that we have to be a different mom to our child than our mom was to us. I mean, we really can make things very difficult for ourselves. And all I'm saying, all I'm saying when I say that about stress being the number one thing is that people get so wrapped up in their story, in their stress, in their worry that they start to. It's like, overwhelm the physiology. So to bring physiology in, as you, I'm sure you're well aware, the physiology of overwhelm and stress is we turn inward into ourselves. Like, our sternum drops, our shoulders go forward. You know, we get in our head, so our jaw goes forward, our neck goes forward. Because the brain is actually overriding everything, intuition and heart. And when we're like that, that is the opposite of being available to our partner, which, physiologically, the sternum is more lifted, the skin of the sternum is more spread, there's a deeper breath, right? So when we are in a physiological state of stress, in a mental state of stress, we are tense. And so we might not be as responsive to our partner's touch. Or we might even think, oh, God, when they touch me, like, how annoying. Like, they're getting in the way. I mean, I see this all the time. Someone is like, I'm too stressed out. So every time my partner touches me, I'm irritated. Like, can you imagine that happens all the time? And it's. And they think, oh, you know, it's them. No, it's you. You're so stressed out, you don't even realize that you are becoming totally unavailable in this relationship.

Podcast Host (13:33)

I've heard some people also describe their relationships as lonely, saying, yes, I've got somebody physically but you have no idea how alone I feel.

Jillian (13:45)

That's a very horrible feeling. It's a terrible feeling to experience experience in a relationship. It's that. That loneliness is worse than the loneliness of actually physically being alone.

Podcast Host (13:56)

Yeah, I can imagine. And that would evidently just come down to communication issues.

Jillian (14:01)

Yes. I mean, basically all relationship problems. Most, most, all of them boil down to communication issues. But, you know, if someone's feeling very alone in their relationship or their marriage, like, there's a lot. There's probably many layers to unpack, and that relationship's in trouble and needs help. And. And you have to communicate, you know, you have to say, this is how I'm feeling, and I really, really want to be more connected to you. And I don't know. And maybe. And I feel like we've lost our way. But I love you and I do think that you love me. Or I don't know. But are you willing to get some help with me with this? I think that we need help.

Podcast Host (14:34)

What about breakups? Okay, so we've discussed. Or is there anything else that you think leads people to breaking up? Because we've got stress. Okay, we know that. Stress and communication, evidently. I mean, what else could lead to a breakup? Obviously, we've got infidelity.

Jillian (14:54)

Yes. So. Yes, lots of things. So, right. The infidelity can lead to a breakup. But what was happening before the infidelity? There's usually a lot of things. Disconnection that's happening prior to that. So disconnection. So really, I've said this before. Relationships rarely end because a lack of love. They more commonly end because of a lack of connection. And what causes that connection? Well, a lot of things, but it's these micro rejections.

Podcast Host (15:19)

It's.

Jillian (15:19)

It's not the one time we were looking down at our phone when they were trying to share something with us. It's the multiple times. It's not the one time that we got into a really bad argument. It's the fact that we have more arguments than we do have harmonious moments. It's not the one time that you felt sort of rejected or turned down. It's the many, many, many times. So they get stacked one on top of the other. So that ends it. And then that. So these, These moments of disc. Many moments of disconnection causes breakups more than a lack of love. And then there's just people who. I mean, immaturity. I mean, I know the breakups in my. Not all of them, but many. Like the breakup of my marriage, which was many years ago, like that just immaturity. Like two people who didn't have enough self awareness to see what was going on, didn't have enough awareness or courage to speak up and set down a boundary. I mean these are just the things we kind of get. Many of us, we get into relationships like toddlers, like not really knowing like anything really about ourselves, not really having the, the self esteem and also just the. We weren't taught how to actually stand up for ourselves in a relationship. Some of us are so afraid to lose the relationship that they'll do anything. So it's like we have these patterns and it's the patterns that sabotage a relationship. And so our job is to get to the root of what our, our pattern is and to figure it out so it doesn't keep repeating itself.

Podcast Host (17:02)

I mean it's just like actually anything in physiology really. We, you know, at neuro athletics we marry the, the art and the science. If we do a blood, you know, reading and we see, okay, this person has elevated cortisol, we don't just say, hey, you've got elevated cortisol. We want to figure out what are your patterns. Is it sleep deprivation? So it's the exact same thing?

Jillian (17:26)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Podcast Host (17:28)

Okay, let's, let's turn towards breakups because I feel like this is where the bulk of our conversation is going to go. I've heard you say the following. You cannot build a relationship with someone who ignores your texts. You cannot build a relationship with someone who isn't willing to talk about the future with you. It takes a lot of courage to walk away from someone that you have a deep connection with. To accept someone's rejection as very real is scary. But we need to stop trying to change them. We need to stop trying to jump through hoops to be enough for them. We have to learn how to be brave. So my question is, why is it so hard for us as humans to move on after a breakup?

Jillian (18:16)

Yeah. So there's a lot there. Well, first of all, that what you read was very specifically to people who are in the early stages of relationships. So like, because the advice that I would give to someone who's considering ending their marriage or their long term partnership is different than the advice I would give to someone who is considering ending their six month relationship. Like if you're seeing someone, it's within the first six months and there's a lot of like games and just like wrong. I'm going to be very firm. Like, you got to get out. Like, this is ridiculous. Get out of it. Like you're, you've only got your skin in the game for six months. As attached as you are, you'll be okay. Clearly, if it's a long term relationship, there's a lot more to unpack. So I don't just say, you know, just walk away because you're unhappy. It's like, you know, you can't build the building a relationship. Like, don't try to force someone to be the partner that you want them to be if they clearly cannot be. You know, you have to communicate and say, I want more, and then see where that dialogue, you know, leads you. But why is it so hard to move on? Well, first of all, it's harder for some than it, it's harder for some than it is for others. It's, it's hard for everyone. Breaking up is. Well, first of all, not every breakup is the same. Some are an emotional catastrophe, some are hurtful, but you kind of dust yourself off and you kind of get back up again. You know, like Leah's words, the breakups that really traumatize us that, that bring us to our knees, you know, whether that was, you know, six months, a year, 20 years, you know, because when you're breaking up with someone, you're not just breaking up with the person. You're breaking up with a dream, you're breaking up with an expectation of what your life was going to look like. You're breaking up with an identity. You're not no longer someone's spouse, you're no longer someone's wife, you're no longer someone's husband, you're no longer someone's boyfriend, girlfriend, partner. You're just you again. And we live in a culture, particularly here in the us where being single at a certain age is considered like a crime in some way. It's ridiculous.

Podcast Host (20:31)

It's like that all over the world, really.

Jillian (20:33)

I don't think it's really so much like that in parts of Europe. I think that there's a lot of, for example, women who are in their 50s and 60s who are considered to be like, they don't really have a hang up about their age. They're not, A lot of them are not injecting a bunch of stuff into their skin to look different and they're not. And they actually are quite independent. This is in certain European countries for sure. So it's not widespread, that obsession with it. But you know, and then it can be very, very difficult if you want a family and then you're breaking up and you're thinking, oh my God, I got to get back out there again. Like the uncertainty of that. And you know, the Buddha said that life is suffering. And the reason why life is suffering is because we are attached and we get attached. We're meant to attach. We're pack animals. And letting go of someone that we love means that we have to face, like I said, the letting go of a dream. It means we have to face ourselves in many ways. And we also have to face the story that so many people tragically arrive to, which is, particularly if this is someone who's been broken up with, is, I'm not good enough, you know, I. They have to face these, this feeling of abandonment. We have many. The breakups that are, that are the most challenging for, for us are the ones that unearth old trauma. So you, this person breaks up with you and all of a sudden you don't even realize this, but you're to cry over, you know, your father who didn't come home one day, and you're crying over, you know, all the people who have broken your heart. And then you're crying over the fact that like, you're alone and then you're crying. Maybe you're crying over the fact that you're a certain age, so you're worthless. So the breaking up is, is not just the person. It is so many other things. They're all deluded thoughts that are based on our experiences and conditioning. They're very real, but they're not. But they're not based in the truth.

Podcast Host (22:49)

I guess that would be difficult, right? Somebody, let's just say somebody went through a traumatic breakup, but then they got back with the person for whatever reason they broke up. And they get back with the person thinking, well, things are different now. Then the exact same breakup happens again. And then they just feel like it's a tragedy. What have I just done? I should have learned the third, you know, the second time. And then, you know, and then they're thinking, do I go back into this? And it's. I guess my question is, do people really change?

Jillian (23:25)

People can change. Many people don't. Because to change, we are a species that clings to the familiar. And we're also a species that is very motivated by pain. So we will change when the consequences of not changing is painful enough. But if the consequences of not changing is just not that uncomfortable, then we likely stay the same. Look, there are people who break up and get back together and it works out. But those people really took time to self reflect, to really look at their part, to, to change, to get help to evolve, to grow. And the people who don't, you know, the people who break up and think they have to go fix themselves right now, they've got to change. And then if they come back and beg enough for me and prove to me that they've done all the work, I'll get back together with them. Yeah, it never works. You are still you and you have a pattern and you have a pattern in the relationship. So if you think they're the only one who has to change, guess what? You're going to get back together with them. And they might be different, but you won't be different. And so you'll just start fighting again.

Podcast Host (24:53)

What about attachment styles?

Jillian (24:54)

Yes, I think so popular right now.

Podcast Host (24:57)

So popular. Oh, what did I read? I read this book and I forget what it was called. Love or something and it actually, you know, you looked at the attachment styles that you grew up with. Again, it goes. But everything seems to go back to childhood.

Jillian (25:12)

It does.

Podcast Host (25:13)

Everything seems.

Jillian (25:14)

Well, not everything because I mean most things go back to childhood but we have a conglomerate of influences. We have Hollywood, we have literature, we have our teenagehood that has, that has to do with our peer groups. So yes, things do go back to our past, but not everything has to do with parents. But a lot does for sure.

Podcast Host (25:33)

What about how we choose to break up for, you know, for whatever example, do attachment styles come into play there?

Jillian (25:42)

Well, yeah, someone who is very. So there's, there's your attachment style and then there's the person with a certain attachment style who has done the self reflective work and communicates and is mature. So like anything else, the more conscious and self aware we can become in our relationships, the better regardless of who raised us or who did not raise us. The more we can be honest, the more vulnerable we can be, the more that we can stand up for ourselves. Listen, all these things, it doesn't matter what your attachment style is. That's really the point. The point is, is that we have to learn how to be better communicators. But yes, so for example, an avoidant who hasn't done any work on themselves in this regard and is, is, you know, acting very childish will end in a really end likely end a relationship very abruptly. The anxiously attached might stay too long. Might stay too long or you know, in their hearts and in their souls and in their bones know that the relationship should end. Actually wishes the relationship could end but can't even face the reality of the. The attachment being severing so they stay in something that's making them miserable as attachment.

Podcast Host (27:04)

Yeah. You just described my friend who's probably going to listen to this, you know, just turned 40 and in a relationship where absolutely hate, they, they absolutely just cannot stand one another. But she, and she voiced this to me two days ago. I. Louisa, I can't leave. Where am I going to go from here? I'm just, I've made my bed, I'm going to lay in it. Who's going to want me now? I'm 40, I've lost my chance of having kids. I hate my life, I hate this. But I'm just gonna just breathe through it.

Jillian (27:37)

Well, first of all, this is a woman you're referring to, right?

Podcast Host (27:41)

Yeah.

Jillian (27:41)

Yeah. So so much of that is the societal conditioning that tells a woman when she's 40. She's like damaged good. Which is like, to me, it's laughable because like I've never gotten more attention in my life than in my. For so I don't know. Right. So I, you know, it's just that we have to really, you know, that narrative. I'm 40 so no one's gonna want me is the most ridiculous thing ever. It's really, truly, ladies. It's really, truly not true. It's not true. Now I understand that the real what is true is that your biological clock is ticking hardcore at 40. But what are you going to do? Stay in a relationship with someone you hate and bring children into that? That's wrong. That's a mistake.

Podcast Host (28:31)

Yeah.

Jillian (28:32)

So you know, the. I made my bed, I might as well lay in it. That's something that she picked up that belief system that I'm sure was like, someone taught her that. Mom or dad taught her that, you know, so she's just afraid of the unknown.

Podcast Host (28:47)

You know what I think is interesting? Not just in romantic relationships, right. This idea of red flag flags. Right. You just, you know, if you go through everyone's been through a breakup and then your, your girlfriends ring you and they're like, but there were red flags there that you just missed.

Jillian (29:01)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (29:01)

And I think we get over consumed in somebody else. Whether it's lust, whether it's love. And those red flags, we just don't see them.

Jillian (29:11)

Yeah. So this is the mistake that we all make when we're young and people are still making them in middle age and, and I want them to, you know, it's like, okay, you're, you're know you're not 25 anymore. Like when you're, it's okay to do this in your 20s, but now you Kind of have to not do this anymore, even though people do this well into their 30s, 40s, and even 50s and 60s, honestly. So, you know, chemistry is really fun. You know, being attracted to someone is very fun. But if you are someone who has a pattern of overlooking red flags because you just are so hungry for the relationship that you have lost your ability to be discerning, because all you want to do is just feel like. You just want to be like, no, no, no, no, no. You just. I don't want to risk this not working because I'm so excited by this. So I'm just going to ignore all the red flags. That's the worst thing you can do. You have to be discerning. When you meet someone, you have to go slow and uncover their character. That's the most important thing that we have, aside from our health, is our character. And we have to protect our character by behaving in ways that we're proud of. And when we do act in a way that's below and beneath who we know we can be, we apologize and we forgive ourselves for being human and we do better next time. But we have to protect our character. So always choose character over chemistry. Yes, you have to be attracted to someone. Chemistry is what gets you in the door. But, like, there's a lot of people who are having chemistry with people who are terrible for them. And if that's you, that's something you need to explore. Whether it's in therapy, whether it's my podcast, whether it's your podcast, you know, whatever it is. It's like, you got to do the work. Because if you keep having chemistry for, like, the wrong person, then you've got to become disciplined and go really slow and get to know someone and their value system, their character, and. And figure out what's really the best person for you. Not the person who's going to look the coolest next to you, but, like, really, who's the person who's going to accept you and who's going to respect you? That's very important.

Podcast Host (31:39)

Yeah. It's also scary when you say you have to unpack it. Right? And I know you've spoken about dating apps because it's like, where do you find such a person with these amazing characteristics without these character flaws?

Jillian (31:55)

Well, everyone has character flaws. I mean, you want someone with. It's actually rare to find someone with incredible character, but I think that we should all try to find, you know, find someone with really good character. I mean, you know, and you want to find someone who's who has great, really good character and is. And is has a value system that says my character is very important to me. So I really do try to do the right thing. But everyone's flawed. Everyone has baggage. Everyone has baggage.

Podcast Host (32:25)

Isn't just wife, ex, wife, kids.

Jillian (32:28)

No baggage. Is also just like, you know, I mean, baggage can be lots of things. We come to the table with a past. We come to the table with fears. We come to the. Some people come to the table with certain mental illnesses and some people have physical limitations and some people get anxious and some people, I don't know are like, you know, like I, I fly all the time, but I'm afraid to fly. So it's.

Podcast Host (32:51)

Oh gosh, me too.

Jillian (32:52)

Yeah, I'm afraid to fly. So like if you, if I'm in a relationship with someone and he's getting annoyed at me on the plane because I'm like, I have to hold his hand and like, you know, like, put my head, you know, like he can tell I'm like nervous. You, like, you're out. Like you don't even get a chance with me because that is like, really, you're going to reject me in that moment for being afraid of flying? Like, that's ridiculous. That's totally ridiculous. So that's what I mean about acceptance. And like, people have flaws. Like, like, here's the thing, you got to go into a relationship and say, this is who I am, but this is who I want to become. And like, these are the things that I struggle with. And sometimes it's going to come out like this and I am going to do my very best. My, my pledge to use and I'm going to be responsible and I'm going to apologize and like, let's just communicate about it. But everyone is flawed. No one is coming to save you. There's no perfect partner. Like, don't stop looking for your king and looking for your queen and using that kind of language, which I really just think is ridiculous. I mean, you want someone who gets you, who accepts you, you get and accept them. And when things get rough, you communicate about it. Like, literally no one is perfect.

Podcast Host (34:12)

Yeah. What are some common red flags that we should all look out for?

Jillian (34:18)

So the, the low hanging fruit. Red flags are violence in any way. So someone who has, I mean, I've had people write into me and say, you know, I met this amazing person and he admitted to me that he, you know, hit, hit his wife, you know, punched his wife or something. But he's done a ton of therapy and he's really worked on this and it'll never happen again. And like on the one hand it's like, wow, that person admitted that like, okay, like, definitely, like that takes a lot of courage. And like, kudos to that person. Kudos to that person for, for getting help. But sorry, wouldn't recommend you getting into a relationship with someone who has punched their, their ex wife.

Podcast Host (35:06)

So that means that people. You're right. So some people can change, but some people pick up on it.

Jillian (35:13)

It's not. He may have changed. I don't think you have to weigh out your wrists.

Podcast Host (35:17)

Yeah, no, that's true.

Jillian (35:18)

You have to weigh out your wrists. Like you want to be in a relationship with someone who's had to work on not being a violent person. I just don't recommend it. So violence, also violence with words. Addicts. Anyone who's an addict, who is not sober, that's a red flag. Red flags are people when you see someone be mean to others, how they treat others, they're rude. A red flag is someone who, you meet them and all they do is talk crap about their exes. That's a huge red flag. It's like really? So you had nothing to do with that. So clearly you've taken no time to self reflect on your part. So you're just going to trash talk your ex. That's a huge red flag. Those are the main ones. Right. You know, and then there are other red flags that are much more personal. It's like if you're someone who tends to get very anxious, then you want to be with someone and you're. And then you meet someone and they're like not that empathetic towards your anxiety. That's a red flag for you. That's just like not a match for you. That doesn't mean that that person is a walking red flag, but they are a red flag for you.

Podcast Host (36:31)

Wow. It feels as though like it's a full time job sometimes.

Jillian (36:36)

I know, but you know what? Well, full time job. What? To find someone.

Podcast Host (36:39)

To find someone. To find the right person to source through them.

Jillian (36:43)

I know. Well, you know, people think that it's really not true, but it's a big job if you've got a track record that reflects a lot of hard or unhealthy relationships. Yeah, you've got your work cut out to you. But don't let that discourage you. Let it inspire you. Because with just some work and with you staying awake and not. And this is. Look, you meet someone and you're like something they said kind of gave me pause. I'm not sure. Don't write them off. Talk to them about it. Hey, you know, something you said kind of made me curious. And then talk about it, because what. The dialogue that ensues could be really wonderful. You got to give people a chance. And so many people, they just want to, like, they want the person who they are most attracted to to be like, their perfect person. It's like, no, actually, like, you know, attraction can grow. You want to give people a chance. Like, we've gotten so into this mindset of just like, you know, looking out for self. And the bottom line is that it's about connecting with others and not being so judgment. Like, you have to find the balance between not being judgmental but also being discerning. And it really just depends on who you are if you've been hurt a lot. Like I said, you have a. There's. There's just a track record of unhealthy relationships. Yeah. You may need a little village to help you be discerning. You know, it might mean that your best friend and, you know, or you know, your most trusted family member has to meet this person first before you have sex with them. You know, not that that's like a guarantee, but like, if you are someone. For those listeners who've been in toxic relationships or they've been in a relationship, you know, with a narcissist, or they've been toxic in relationships. Yeah. They have to, like, take a minute, take a breather, and really. And approach dating from a much more cautious place.

Podcast Host (38:50)

Do you believe in love at first? First sight?

Jillian (38:53)

No. That's what I remember. Like, I got asked this question already, and I love that I got asked this a lot. No, no, no, no. Lust at first sight. Attraction at first sight. Interest at first sight.

Podcast Host (39:07)

Attraction at first sight is a real thing, like attraction?

Jillian (39:10)

Oh, yes. No, no, no. I believe in attraction at first sight. Lust at first sight. Love. No, I don't believe that you love someone at first sight. I think that you. You can become enamored with someone at first sight, but love is a. Is a completely different thing. Love is a choice. Love is something that we have to consistently put aside our egos and love someone the way that they need to be loved. Love is selflessness. It's not just. It's not just a feeling. It's a practice. It's an intentional practice. It's a verb. Yeah. It's not just a feeling. So I don't believe in love at first sight. You don't? How can you love someone when you don't know them.

Podcast Host (39:55)

Takes a lifetime to get to know someone.

Jillian (39:57)

Well, yes, in many ways it does. And that's. And that's a beautiful thing because that means that if you're in a relationship of 10 years and you. And you're getting bored, well, guess what? You still, you can get curious and see a completely different person in front of you. People coming back to change. People in small ways change all the time. You know, like we. Our preferences change, our. Our dreams change, our direction in life change. And so when you're in a relationship with someone long term, there's going to be many times where you're going to have to accept when your partner is like, on a different path, you know, following a different dream. Yeah, it's very scary feel. It can feel very threatening. But the couples who really endure the longest embrace each other's change.

Podcast Host (40:50)

Something I'm seeing a lot of. And when I say this on the podcast, I get. I meet a lot of people. Just, it's given my, you know, my job. So I hear a lot of things and people also write in. But what I'm seeing a lot of is people just waking up after maybe 10 years of marriage and out of nowhere, this isn't for me anymore. I love you. It's not for me anymore. It's not what I want. I realized I want this. And they've just backdoored at exit and it's. And I think, wow, someone can just, 10 years into it, just wake up. And I'm sure you've heard this before. I don't know if you have, but how does that happen?

Jillian (41:32)

That usually has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship and everything to do with an existential crisis happening within the person who wants to leave.

Podcast Host (41:41)

Like a midlife crisis.

Jillian (41:42)

Yes. A midlife crisis is really just a. A point in a person's life where they are bored, unfulfilled, struggling to find meaning in their life, and they don't know which direction to take. And so they think if I just blow up the whole thing, that'll be the thing that shakes things up. But that's very destructive because we want to be able to make these changes to our lives while staying connected.

Podcast Host (42:11)

Yeah, I think to me, that would be the scariest thing.

Jillian (42:14)

Yes, it is quite scary.

Podcast Host (42:16)

Do you think there is the right person out there for everybody?

Jillian (42:20)

I believe that there are many right people for us. I don't think that there's an unlimited amount of right people, but I don't believe in the one. I Think that we choose who the one will be. I think there are many. The ones, you know, we do actually change over time. Our priorities shift as we age. We have certain life experiences and we think, oh, I was going to go left, but now it looks like I really should go right. So things change. We evolve. Our. And like I said, our priorities change. So what was like, once really important to someone 10 years ago in a partner might be very different now. And I think that, you know, huh. It's like, how do I say this without it being a total buzzkill, which is that, you know, at the end of the day, you just, you have to, like, learn how to love a perfectly flawed human. You know, you have to learn how to love an imperfect person. And so I think that the, the quote, unquote right person for you is, like I said, someone where the both of you, you accept each other. You really, really accept each other for who you are. And, and you respect each other and you're good friends with each other and you communicate with each other. You can do that and feel that with someone, that person's right for you.

Podcast Host (43:46)

Do you think friendship is a really great foundation to start a relationship?

Jillian (43:50)

I do. I think it's a wonderful foundation. I mean, look, we will always have to balance in a relationship, passion and friendship. We're great friends, but I still actually want to have sex with you. Like, that's, that's always going to be a balance. But your friend is the person who you trust. Your friend is the person who you respect. Your friend is the person who you can be your goofiest self with. You need that. I. I can't even imagine being in a relationship with someone where you can't do that. I mean, I have done that, but I couldn't imagine it now in my life. Like, you have to really be able to feel that. And I think that at the end of the day, the couples who I have admired the most, who I know for a fact are strong couples, even with their problems, they have a very strong foundation of friendship. Every single one.

Podcast Host (44:49)

Yeah, I love that you said that because oftentimes we look at social media and we see what we see. Yeah, we see, oh, they've got the perfect white picket fence. They look so happy. Why am I not as happy as them?

Jillian (45:03)

It's a trap.

Podcast Host (45:04)

They have everything going on. Do you find that?

Jillian (45:06)

Oh, yeah. All the time. I've even, I've even felt it in myself. And then next thing you hear is like, you know, they're divorcing.

Podcast Host (45:13)

Yeah, yeah.

Jillian (45:14)

Yeah. You don't. Don't believe what you see in social media. You never know what goes on behind closed doors. And I'm going to butcher this statement, but my friend's grandfather has a saying that that is something along the lines of, you never know what's going on in a relationship unless you're sleeping underneath their bed.

Podcast Host (45:35)

Oh, I love that.

Jillian (45:38)

Yeah, It's a good one.

Podcast Host (45:39)

Yeah. Because you'll never know.

Jillian (45:40)

You just. We don't know.

Podcast Host (45:41)

It's like when you hear of divorces and you think, what happened? It's like, you'll never know.

Jillian (45:46)

Yeah. You don't know. Yeah. That picture that you saw on social media, it's got nothing. Yeah. You don't know.

Podcast Host (45:51)

So when is enough enough?

Jillian (45:53)

Yeah. When is it time to leave? It's one of the questions that I get all the time. And it's. You know, I wish there was an easy answer for this, and there isn't, because every relationship has its own complexity, and some are very complex. But here are some guidelines. So if there's abuse, it's. It's a wrap. You got to get out.

Podcast Host (46:12)

Is that emotional as well?

Jillian (46:14)

Verbal emo. You know, emotional meaning manipulation. You know, you're. You're manipulated. You are put down, you're criticized, you're stonewalled, you're given the silent treatment, you're ignored. Repeatedly. Yes.

Podcast Host (46:33)

And that stands for somebody who leaves the relationship comes back. Leaves the relationship comes back.

Jillian (46:39)

That's a form of no, because you're. You're taking them back. That's not abuse.

Podcast Host (46:43)

Okay.

Jillian (46:43)

Yeah, no, no, no. That's your shit.

Podcast Host (46:46)

Yeah. All right.

Jillian (46:47)

Yeah. You're taking them back. No, I don't see that as a. So that's not a form of views? No, it's. Someone who calls you, is name calls, is violent with you, with their words, ignores you, puts you down, put you down in front of others, disrespects you constantly. So abuse, physical or otherwise, it's time to leave. I don't believe in working on a relationship like that. I believe you get out as quickly as you can and you get the help that you need. Sometimes it's time to. I don't believe that people who've really invested their lives and their. And their hearts to each other should leave their, end their relationship without giving couples therapy or couples work a shot. Now, is it a guarantee that's going to help? No. Part of my motivation for getting into this field is because I was appalled at the couples therapy that my ex husband and I did. It just Was terrible. It was so bad. And glad that we're not together so everything happens, everything ends up the way it, it should. But it was just bad.

Podcast Host (47:53)

So bad.

Jillian (47:55)

Great, great individual. The therapists, all of them. No one, no one was holding us accountable. No one was telling us the truth. No one was like getting up in our faces and saying, quit that, you know, like, time to grow up. Like, this is what's going on. And I think that that's what people need is, is compassion. But tough love too. I don't think that people should end their relationship before communicating their needs. And the number one thing is when people are unhappy in a relationship, they become absolutely obsessed with themselves. It's all about their needs not being met, their unhappiness. This is not a judgment. I've been there. We all do this, what they're not getting. And they rarely stop to think, what am I not giving? What am I not fulfilling in them? Because if you're unhappy in your relationship, big chances your partner's unhappy too. So the two of you have not done a great job at making this relationship work. Again, we're shelving abuse and all that, right? We're not talking about that. So you need to really have an honest conversation. Like people have to have the difficult conversations before they end their relationship. They have to lead with love, lead with vulnerability, lead with telling the truth and have the conversations that are really scary and dare and rock the boat and, and see what happens. And I don't think people should end their relationship in an important relationship. You know, break up a family without having those conversations. Now, it might mean that you still have to end the relationship, but at least you know that the two of you really did what you could to make it work. And then hopefully you can end it with some gratitude for the time that you had in each other's lives and with some, with kindness and with, and with just, you know, civility. That's the goal. Yeah. So, you know, if you haven't told the truth, now's the time to tell the truth. If you haven't asked for what you needed, now's the time. If you haven't asked them what they needed, now is the time. If you've been stuck in your head with resentment, now is the time to deal with that resentment.

Podcast Host (50:19)

Yeah. So, yeah, bringing this full circle.

Jillian (50:23)

Yes.

Podcast Host (50:23)

Let's talk about some happy things. Like, okay, what, what, what can we be doing to set us up for a successful long term relationship?

Jillian (50:34)

So I think that people, single people, should be learning the skills of good relationship now before they met the person. So instead of skimming through content on social media that's not directed at people who are single and dating, you should be actually consuming as much content and is reading as much books on how to be a great communicator and how to have a great relationship now. So prepare yourself now. Deal with any old stuff. You know, like, if you are. If you're saying, you know, men suck or women suck, like, guess what, you're going to have a really shitty relationship. So you got to figure that out. So anything that's sort of. That you think is blocking you from opening your heart and opening yourself to love again, like, that's something that you need to explore and get to the bottom of because, you know, I mean, yeah, it's very scary, but if we close our hearts, then we're not gonna get what we want. So.

Podcast Host (51:39)

I love how you said that love is a commitment. It's not something that is just based on attraction and chemistry. It is something that you say, okay, I am in this. And it's basically something that you, you know, I, I refer to this often in the Bible. I'm not very religious, but in the Bible, it says many things about going through life and going through life with another person, but it only says one thing about choosing a partner. And it says you should choose a partner that you. Or you should choose a person that you would go to war with.

Jillian (52:16)

Yeah, I mean, I haven't read the Bible, but I do love that. And, and I agree with that. I think. I really believe that you want a partner like you want a partner in crime. You want someone who. It's the two of you and you are facing life together and life for certain people and for all of us. On some level, there's. If you're going to do life with someone, things are going to get difficult, not just between the two of you, but just in life. And so you need. There's going to be battles and wars that you're going to have to face in your life. And you want someone who. You want to do that with, who you trust in a foxhole. And, and maybe that person doesn't look exactly like your idealized version of what a person should look like. Maybe that person, you know, maybe that means that you have to stop projecting mom and dad onto this person. You know, every time they're. They're unhappy, it's like, oh, well, my mom was always unhappy. So now I, you know, this person's a problem. Like, we have to really, really be self Aware. And Yeah, maybe that person isn't exactly who you thought it would be be, but when you do find that person or you get an inkling of. Of feeling that. That safety when you're around that person, that tangible release of your nervous system that you're like, oh, I can really be myself with this person. Don't let that go. That's what's. What it's all about.

Podcast Host (54:00)

Yeah, I love that. Find somebody who's good for your nervous system.

Jillian (54:04)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (54:05)

So you're writing a book.

Jillian (54:06)

I am.

Podcast Host (54:07)

Oh, my gosh. So this is amazing because I think we all need it. Is it about communication?

Jillian (54:12)

It's about. I mean, it's about love and relationships. Yeah.

Podcast Host (54:15)

And teaching you all the do's and.

Jillian (54:17)

Don'Ts, I guess, basically all the things that you really need to do and. Yeah. And the things not to do. And it's. There's going to be a lot in it. There's going to be case studies in it. There's going to be little exercises that you can do in it. I think it's going to be great.

Podcast Host (54:33)

I need to buy like a thousand copies and just hand them out to my friends, please. Like they walk in the door. I'm going to say, here you go. Here you go.

Jillian (54:41)

Love it.

Podcast Host (54:42)

That's great. Any parting thoughts? I think we covered everything.

Jillian (54:46)

I think we covered everything. Yeah.

Podcast Host (54:48)

You're incredible. And you do a lot of. I found you, you know, on social media. You are great on social media. When you talk on your reels, I feel like you're talking to me.

Jillian (54:58)

That's great. I'm glad.

Podcast Host (54:59)

So we're going to link that. And you've got a podcast. Do you as well?

Jillian (55:02)

Yes. So I have my podcast, Jillian on Love. So that has been really amazing and taking up a lot of my time in a good way. And I've got Instagram, TikTok and you know, I've got courses and stuff like that.

Podcast Host (55:15)

Oh, wonderful. We're going to link everything. Jillian, thank you so much for being on the Hero Experience.

Jillian (55:19)

Thank you so much for having me.