← The Neurodivergent Experience
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- [00:02]
Sophie James
The autistic culture podcast network the sound of autistic culture.
- [00:11]
Chase Sapphire Advertiser
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Simon Scott
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Simon Scott
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- [00:27]
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- [01:17]
Sophie James
Hot topic.
- [01:24]
Simon Scott
Hello and welcome to your Friday News Hot Topic. I'm Simon Scott and I'm joined by the wonderful Sophie James to discuss some news that's not necessarily out in the public per se, but this was definitely news to me. Sophie, hello again, by the way.
- [01:44]
Sophie James
Hello, hello.
- [01:45]
Simon Scott
Welcome back. Even though we've not gone anywhere but the audience doesn't need to know that, we'll let them know.
- [01:50]
Sophie James
Welcome back.
- [01:51]
Simon Scott
Welcome back. We haven't gone anywhere but welcome back. So we were having a bit of a discussion off air where we were discussing the Hot Topic and one of the things that you mentioned to me, which was news to me and I think is going to be news to a lot of our listeners, is your experience in a lot of people using the word autism as a slur.
- [02:11]
Sophie James
Yes. So what I found is from, you know, talking to a lot of young neurodivergent people through my mentoring sessions, is that autism especially or autistic has become a slur and it has become a very negative word. And so that recently, like a lot of, you know, young people don't want to say they're autistic. Not I feel like the reasons before were the same of just like not wanting people to misunderstand you or think there's something wrong with you, but even more so now because it's actually become a popular word. It's basically meaning, you know, that you are not with it, that you're kind of, you know, quote unquote, like special but in like a negative way, you know, that you don't understand the World like very negative stereotypes and people. Apparently it's not the same with adhd. ADHD is like, okay, because like there's the stereotype of like ADHD boys just kind of like bouncing around the classroom and just like being funny or whatever. So ADHD is apparently more safe. But autism has become like a very negative word and a way of insulting someone. Wow.
- [03:34]
Simon Scott
So I don't want, I almost don't want to like highlight it in a way, but I kind of feel I have to. How is it sort of being used? Is it like people that are a bit socially awkward or people that like struggle with, with dating or like people just going oh, how autistic or that's so autistic. Is that sort of how it's being thrown around? Cuz the way that I'm sort of imagining it in my head is how people used to use the word. And I hated that as a kid. Like I got called that a few times and I know a lot of people that used to just say and throw it around so casually and not realize like how ableist and discriminating calling that somebody is. But I never imagined that people would start using the word oh, how autistic or oh God damn tis like I just never imagined that it would be used that way. But after you talking to me earlier about it, I really can feel that that probably is the case now.
- [04:29]
Sophie James
I think it is exactly the way that you've just described it has become that word. And I, I'm not exactly sure where because this is just what I have been told and I've heard. So it might be good to get like exactly someone's story of how. But I know that, you know, someone was called like, you know, yeah, you're, you're being really autistic or that's so autistic or just being, just using it in just a very discriminative and negative term. And I'm just like, yeah, yeah, but do you actually. And I find it so ridiculous to hear because you know, I'm only 22, like I was in school that long ago. I'd never heard that. Like we did not know what that word meant. Or like at least I didn't at school and no one had ever said it. It had not been a word that was said at school ever or even barely ADHD. I think I actually said to one kid, I remember in year 10, I was like, are you going to ADHD? And he was like, no. What he was really like taken back by it. So like it wasn't It. It just really wasn't a word or. Or something that was very talked about, but now it's becoming an insult. And I think a lot more people are saying they are autistic or, like, a lot. And it's probably online. You know, there's a lot more knowledge about being autistic or adhd. There's a lot of stereotypes around it. And I think you're right. It's become a way to insult people who are appearing quite socially awkward or maybe have special interests. And you can see that at school or look a certain way.
- [06:17]
Simon Scott
I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because, like, I think about who I was at school, and I. If I was to meet that kid now, I'd be like, that kid's autistic. But it never, ever occurred to me that having that conversation or using that word to a kid would offend them. You know, like, I never thought people would be using the word autistic as a slur. I see on, like, live streams of video games and stuff where, like, somebody will be like, info dumping over a mic on a game and somebody blow, oh, this guy's so autistic. At no point did I consider that they were trying to slight them or offend them.
- [06:52]
Sophie James
Yeah.
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Simon Scott
And that kind of really worries me because we already have an issue with the younger generation getting diagnosed or getting support. This. This almost makes me think of when I was younger. Sophie, I don't know if you experienced this at school, but being called gay was an insult. Like, I used to do theater at school, and everyone always used to say, oh, Simon's gay. Even though I'm. I'm not. I'm. I'm really not. And not that that would be a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just. I'm heterosexual and being very literal, I'd be like, no, I'm not. And it's nothing to do with the fact that you're insulting me. It's the fact that you've got the wrong information around.
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Chase Sapphire Advertiser
Yeah.
- [07:32]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [07:32]
Simon Scott
And I can understand why a lot of young people would feel closeted by not wanting to be openly gay because of the way that the word is used as an insult and as a slur. My worry is that that's now going to move on to people that figure out that they're autistic and are really afraid to be open about it to get accommodations and support or medication or whatever, because they're afraid of Internet language.
- [08:03]
Sophie James
Yeah. Well, I think it has already happened. I know so many worrying. I meet so many young people who say, yeah, none of my friends know that I'm neurodivergent. And I'm like, and. And this is where I want to gain that understanding. Because my first reaction in my brain goes, but why? Like, I always told my friends when I was younger that was autistic because it helped them understand me. Like, it helped them get me. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, Sophie, she's got a different brain. She just, like, she doesn't have much of a filter. She's just saying things, but she's not offending you. She's literally. So you can go to her, and if you want an honest opinion, she'll give it to you. And, like, I almost. I feel like people actually saw my. My positives and as a person and didn't just see it in a negative way. And so it makes me sad that people don't tell their friends. The people that they're supposed to be feel safe and accepted by. That they're neurodivergent or they're autistic. Well, that they're autistic. That is the word they don't want to say. ADHD is okay, I think, because I
- [09:11]
Simon Scott
see memes about it all the time.
- [09:12]
Sophie James
Yeah, I think it's more socially accepted as, like, kind of being a little bit quirky, even though obviously we know that's not what that means, but that's what it is more socially deemed as. But autistic has become this thing where you do not understand things. You do not understand how things work, and you are stupid socially, and you have weird interests, and you're just kind of like, a bit weird. Like, I think that's what people say. You're weird. You're weird. You're like a bit of a freak. And that makes me feel really sad because I'm like, we're still doing this. Can we not accept that people are unique and different and awesome? And, like, why we still doing that?
- [09:59]
Simon Scott
I've got to ask Sophie, where do you think this is coming from? Like, as somebody who's a little bit younger than me, I mean, I've been on the Internet for a really long time. I know troll culture and. And how people are, and I know how words come and go in the lexicon, but I see so many people being openly adhd. I see a lot of people that go, I'm a little bit different from my friends, so I'm ADHD without actually really doing a lot of the research. Not that I'm saying that they aren't yeah, but. And I also see a lot of memes. Like I've see Renee rap in an interview where somebody goes, why are you like this? And she just goes, adhd. And people use it as a clip on a lot of memes and a lot of reals. And it seems almost like, I hate to say it, but a bit of a trend.
- [10:45]
Sophie James
Yeah.
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Simon Scott
So where has this like really negative association with being autistic come from, do you think?
- [10:52]
Sophie James
I think it's because of the media in terms of what we've seen about autism and because we haven't seen a lot of autistic people on TV and in movies that have openly said they are autistic and are maybe more in the profile of my neurodivergence or your neurodivergence then it is they see Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. And that's Love on the Spectrum's one line. I don't think helps and Love on the Spectrum. And these people are, you know, are obviously, you know, I'm not gonna put Sheldon down as a character because he's awesome. And I'm sure there's Sheldons in the world and that's cool and everyone loves Sheldon, but that Sheldon isn't autism. Like those are non equal equals equation. That is, he is an autistic person. And I think people see how he's portrayed on the Big Bang Theory as being quite a difficult character who annoys a lot of people and who is very specific and is very kind of annoying almost. And they're like, yep, that's autism. That is what that is. Whereas actually everyone on the Big Bang Theory is probably neurodivergent, like, and they're all different characters. And I think our as a society as well, our challenges are just so highlighted as the definitions of these words as opposed to the fact like you're just talking about an alternative neurotype. And there is no one definition to it and there is no one person to that. It is just like an alternative neurotype that have patterns of behavior that is presented in very different ways. But obviously that is a very, you know, thoughtful way of looking at it and a very social model of looking at autism. And I think there is just so much of the medical model of autism spread around everywhere and children talk to other children as well. And so if all they're talk told about autism is that they went to camps and. And they got their diagnosis and their diagnosis says that they can't do this and they're deficited in that and they're Unable to do this. That's. That's all they know. And that's what, that's what goes around. And that's what autism is. And that kid that stopped going to school, he was autistic. And that's why, you know, it's dangerous, isn't it?
- [13:30]
Simon Scott
Because once it starts young, it becomes a real. Really hard to re educate. I mean, I think about it, Sophie. There was a, A young lad that I went to school with who had a tutor that sat next to him and he always sat on his own. And he. I wouldn't like to speak for him, but I don't think he was bullied. I think he was ostracized because people knew that he was different. But I wouldn't say, I think people had the withdrawal and the respect to not slur against him. But I got slurs because I was socially awkward and people would go, oh, look at that cloud. And I go, oh, actually that's technically a nimbus cloud. That's part of the jet streaming. Did you know it was discovered in. And people are, oh, shut the up, Simon. Like, that's the response that I got a lot of the time. And I felt like I was at school to learn how to be intelligent and to stand out. And when I started doing those things, that was bad. Like, that was the, the energy that I got. And. Oh, man, I used to get called all sorts of stuff. Like, I got. I wasn't. I was a chunky kid and I got called fat. I was a little bit weird. So I got called a freak. I work. I, you know, did theater. So I got called gay. And there was like a word for every sort of like, social stereotype. It just makes me really sad now that people aren't seeing the positives. Like, it's, it's. It's not even like they know what the positives are. It's. People just go, thing bad, Autism bad. Now gonna use it as a slur.
- [15:02]
Sophie James
That is it. I think everyone at school wants to be seen in a good light because school is a very difficult place where you've got a lot of hormonal children from different backgrounds with different parents and different ways of thinking all placed into one big space where they're just trying to, like, compete with each other. Who's the best of that? Who's good at that?
- [15:30]
Simon Scott
Where do I fit in in the hierarchy of this place?
- [15:33]
Sophie James
Exactly. It is. And it is when you think of adhd, because of all the things online, you can see goods of adhd, you know, like or, you know, like, when I've spoken to people in the past, they've gone. People have actually asked me, like, do you know, are you. They haven't said, are you adhd? This is just something I say. But they say, do you have adhd? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, yeah. I could tell because I'm just really, like, chipper and hyper and happy, and I'm always doing something. Somehow I have the Hoover out, and then I'm going to the gym, and then I'm like, I'm a squirrel. Really?
- [16:10]
Simon Scott
I'm alive. I'm dead. Yeah, I get you.
- [16:14]
Sophie James
I get you. Just, you know, very physically hyper. And people see that as really entertaining and funny and quirky. And I think a lot of people at school thought I was very cute and sweet, and so that's how it can sometimes be perceived. But when we think about autism, it's like, That is not associated with the quirky, happy, sweet person that.
- [16:46]
Simon Scott
What is that associated weird people?
- [16:49]
Sophie James
Yes, that is what that is associated with you. There's not even really a way out there yet that we are spinning it into something good.
- [17:01]
Simon Scott
So, I mean, I've experienced that a lot recently. I mean, I've just launched the Autistic Culture Podcast network. And I've been baffled by the amount of people that go, autism isn't a culture. Go, well, it is. And they go, no, it isn't. It's a deficit. It's a disorder. How can a deficit or a disorder have a. Have a culture? You can't have broken leg culture, so why have you got autistic culture? And it's like, oh, God, we've got some work to do. Yeah, we've got some work to do.
- [17:29]
Sophie James
I. I think even growing up, from my experience, because no one else said they were autistic, they. There was a little part of me that felt a bit uncomfortable saying to people, like, yeah, I'm autistic, but I actually used to kind of. Kind of challenge myself to do it even more to the point where I feel comfortable doing it, because in my head I was like, but this is. There's nothing wrong with me saying this. This is just a fact. This is just who I am. And let me actually prove to you what it means. Let me prove to you how wrong you think of it by me telling you I am and then showing you who I am. And then you can change what thoughts on being autistic were. And so I used to kind of be like, they're gonna think because there's always this thought in your mind because some people do kind of use it as a trend. There was always a thought in your mind that's like, you're gonna come across as someone who's just like, I'm this and I'm that, so I can do this. And actually, there is a new thing now when kids are actually using ADHD as reasons to actually just bully other children. They're like, oh, no, y.
- [18:43]
Simon Scott
Oh, I hit him because I have adhd.
- [18:45]
Sophie James
No, literally, this is. These are the stories I've been told that they actually are just bullying autistic kids and using ADHD as a reason that they are allowed to bully.
- [18:56]
Simon Scott
Oh, I've got like a vision of like Bart Simpson now. Sat in a room going, it's the adhd. I can't stop it. Look what he's making me do. Like, that's. Yeah, we laugh, but that's kid's kid. Pretty fucked up.
- [19:09]
Sophie James
Obviously there's, you know, reasons to why you might be perceived as rude or inappropriate in neurotypical standards, but there is no reason for bullying. And bullying has to be put in its place and stopped because then you're affecting autistic children who are being bullied by ADHD children. But it's okay because their adhd, fucking friendly fire. It's crazy. I'm just like, what is going on? And that's the thing children. And so there's like the oppos. And when children hear like, oh, I'm adhd, so that means that I can just have no filter and just bounce around and do all of these things because I'm different. So I'm allowed to do that. And it's like, that's not getting accommodations.
- [19:52]
Simon Scott
That's being a dick.
- [19:54]
Sophie James
Yeah. But they don't understand that because I think that's what they've been told by their parents or told by someone they've seen. So they've then, oh my God, understood it.
- [20:03]
Simon Scott
This is why. Do you know I'm just gonna move to a desert island, Sophie.
- [20:06]
Sophie James
I know, I'm sorry. I've just brought everything.
- [20:08]
Simon Scott
Fights with the coconut smile. Be a lot easier.
- [20:10]
Sophie James
But this is why. This is what I have in my mind suddenly when I'm just on a walk and I'm like, I don't know.
- [20:17]
Simon Scott
This is the problem with being a data gatherer and a bottom up processor. We see too much. But, you know, it's difficult. And even I think back on my own experiences. Sophie. When I got diagnosed, I went in for adhd. And when I Got autistic adhd. I was like, oh. And it didn't feel good. And I've learned to make it feel good and to focus on the positives. But even now, I will meet people in a professional setting, a social setting or whatever, even if I'm just playing golf with somebody. Somebody goes, what do you do for a living? I go, oh, I'm a co founder of the Autistic Culture Podcast Network. And everyone, like, wrinkles their nose to start off with, like, what the that about? And if I say to people I've got ADHD, nine times out of 10 people go, I know. I tell them that I'm autistic. And they go, hmm, well, you're not like my friend Deborah's friend's dog, son, brother in law twice removed, and he's autistic, and you're nothing like him. So you're wrong. That I have experienced. But there have been many times where I've told people that I'm autistic, and they go, oh, yeah. And then suddenly they start infantilizing me, and it is really difficult.
- [21:30]
Sophie James
Yeah.
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Simon Scott
This is so complex.
- [21:31]
Sophie James
Something I, I, I always do and try to do my mentoring sessions is help people advocate for themselves. It's like, okay, if someone reacts to you in a certain way about you being autistic, that says more about them than it is about you. Like, do not let that get to you or affect you. They do not understand this information. They are probably projecting in some way if they're being rude. And they do not have, you know, people in their life to make them feel good. And they're probably being projected on and it's, you know, it's just a cycle of abuse, you know, so don't, don't let it rain on your parade, you know, And I love to help people find their inner strength. And that's what I mean when I go and tell people that I'm autistic because I feel like I do it so confidently now. I'm like, go on. Got anything to say? Nah, you don't, because I've said it with so much confidence. You've now started questioning yourself and your own beliefs on autism, you know, and that's what I want to do to people. I want to make them question themselves.
- [22:38]
Simon Scott
I mean, oh, Sophie, I had it a little while ago where I was having a conversation with somebody and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm autistic. And I went, I don't know about that. And I turned to them and I went, do you feel like you have enough knowledge to debate me on this without me absolutely embarrassing you, because I do this for a living. I went, if you want to go, let's fucking go. And the guy was like, oh. And I went. Didn't think that autistic people could be passive aggressive, now, did we? We learn something new every day. And I was like, I can get why people sometimes think I'm a bit of a scrapper, but that's the energy that it gives me, puts me in a bit of a rage. It makes me feel very defensive. And I can only imagine how, you know, a kiddo feels when they're trying to figure themselves out. They're trying to get supports or just trying to accommodate for themselves. And then you have somebody go, oh, like, it just.
- [23:28]
Sophie James
Yeah, you want.
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Simon Scott
It's not. It's not.
- [23:31]
Sophie James
You want to get the accommodations. You want to be understood, but you don't want to make people think that you're, like, trying to parade about, parade around saying, I'm different. I need more than everyone else. And there's just so many societal expectations on kids. And that's why, you know, it is important that when you do find out that your kid is autistic is to make sure that you are using the right language around them. And it's okay to get it wrong, but it's really. That is very important. To use the right language is to say they are autistic, not they have autism. That does change things. It changed the narrative. It changes the perspective is the social model, not the medical model of stuff. And, you know, not always pointing out their challenges or, oh, you're so anxious or you're so make your kid realize their strengths, what they're good at. You know, why their brain's working really well so they can see it in themselves. Because we, you know, we do listen to our parents very deeply, even if we don't want to. You know, we emulate what they. How they treat us, and we do that to ourselves. And how our parents treat themselves. We emulate that as well.
- [24:52]
Simon Scott
We regulate in the same way that they choose to regulate themselves, and we copy and paste as behaviors because we don't know any better. We don't know any different.
- [24:59]
Sophie James
Exactly.
- [25:00]
Simon Scott
Just work with what we've got in front of us. It's almost like we're pattern matchers, and that's. That's what we do.
- [25:04]
Sophie James
I think. Yeah, sorry. I was just gonna add, I think because my dad always said, like, own it. You own that. You know, and he said, you know, that you're that you're different and, yeah, you deserve accommodations. It's like, what, you're gonna place an Arctic fox here in the UK and expect it to succeed and, like, survive? No, it's like, it's just. It's not gonna happen if you put a fox here from the UK in the Arctic. I think not. So let's. You know, you are entitled. You are entitled to accommodations. You're entitled to. They're called reasonable adjustments. And you are entitled to accept yourself, you know, and be different. You are allowed that as well. And I think because he always gave me that confidence, I was like. And I saw him do it as well. I saw him go to other people, say, I'm autistic, and I'd always be there, like. But I was like, oh, no, he owns that. He owns that, and I'm gonna own it too. So that was my story.
- [26:11]
Simon Scott
Yep. And it was a very good one. Thank you. Yeah. So this has been your hot topic for this week. I'm very intrigued to know whether you are a young person listening to this or a parent or a grandparent. What do you think about kids using autistic or autism as a slur? Would love to hear your thoughts. But, Sophie, it's been so awesome having you step in as my guest co host and, you know, I'm really looking forward to having you back on the show. Thank you so much. It's been. I've had a lot of fun. It's been a great pleasure.
- [26:39]
Sophie James
Yay. Thank you everyone for listening and. Yep. Cool. Awesome.
- [26:46]
Simon Scott
Peace out. Right? Bye, everybody. Be kind, Be safe out there. Don't slur each other with the word autism.
- [26:51]
Sophie James
Don't do that.
- [26:52]
Simon Scott
Yeah. Bye, everyone. Thanks watching for. For tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.
- [27:55]
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- [28:17]
Sophie James
I've got ideas.
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- [29:27]
Simon Scott
Thanks for listening. Support autistic led media through Autistic Culture plus and enjoy bonus content, early episodes and ad free listening. Visit autisticculture.supercast.com to learn more.