← The Neurodivergent Experience
The Neurodivergent Experience
I Don’t Belong Here: Imposter Syndrome and the Neurodivergent Brain
00:57:33
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Ooh, that looks fun.
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A
Welcome to the Neurodivergent Neurodivergent Experience Podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.
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D
Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates, and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.
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A
I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.
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D
I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the Neurodivergent Experience. Hello.
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A
Hello and welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. I nearly forgot what this is called. It's just I was saying it and I was like.
- [02:33]
D
What? What? Welcome back. What?
- [02:35]
A
What's so. Yeah, that's. That is a neurodivergent experience. This is called me being extremely tired, burnt out, and still having a bloody cold. So, Scotty, now we know that basically I'M mentally drained and as useless as a camel on ice skates. What have you been up to and how are you doing?
- [02:58]
D
Yeah, do you know what, man? I'm good. Had a. A fun little week of trying to get everything done before I go away tomorrow. I'm very, very excited. By the time you listen to this episode, I will have already have seen more the monster Ms. Gaga. I don't know if you've heard of a Jordan. She's quite good. So looking forward to that. I'll have been to Amsterdam and had a culturally lovely little time wandering around there. And I hopefully will feel very recharged because right now I'm a little bit. Not high, not highly strung, but I've got that sort of like nervous giggles, you know, when you've just been, like, super busy and you're just like, everything's fine, it's on fire, but everything's fine.
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A
You must have travel anxiety as well.
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D
Oh, I hate it, dude. Like the two days before. Because I have such, like, bad time blindness. And I also have demand avoidance, obviously. I'm like, oh, don't worry, I've got loads of time to pack. We only go to the hotel tonight. Great. And I've also got, like a full day of work ahead and I'm like, I hope I don't forget anything or suddenly go there and go, oh, a toothbrush. Should have brought a toothbrush. So I love, like, going away and having a break, but the anxiety that I get up to that point is shit. And I also did that really dumb thing where I was like, I'm gonna save myself £20 six months ago by booking a 7am flight. That was a good idea.
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A
You know you can drive to Amsterdam in less than eight hours from where I live.
- [04:21]
D
Well, unfortunately, I don't live where you live. It's like another four hours in the.
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A
Well, that sounds like a you problem, but it is.
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D
It definitely is a you problem.
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A
Crikey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna drive there next year in my nice new car. New in quotes. New to me. My new to me car. So that's. That's going to be fun. But anyway, apart from our travel plans, what. What are we going to talk about today? And why did you want to talk about this particularly?
- [04:53]
D
Oh, God, here we go. We're talking about imposter syndrome.
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A
He's an imposter. He's not good enough. No thing he does is good enough. That is my brain.
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D
Most of the time, it's my brain. One of the reasons as to Why I want to talk about this is because I've had a brilliant time. Very stressful, very busy. I've set up the Autistic Culture Podcast Network. I've launched a new show, which is called the Late Diagnosis Club. Wonderful. Very happy. Thank you. But also the fear. The fear of going, you haven't got a bloody clue what you're doing. Wait until everyone finds out you're a fraud. And that has just been my existence for 31 years on this planet, give or take. Not fun. I'm getting them, but yeah. So imposter syndrome. Do you know what? Crikey. I think I struggle with this more than. Than most things. And I have not got amazing inception. I have a lot of cocktail of feelings, and sometimes they are. They are extreme to the point of almost feeling not fair. And I can't figure out how I feel about a lot of things a lot of the time. And I've, in retrospect, been really successful with a lot of stuff. I've done a lot of things I've always wanted to do. But why don't I feel it, Jordan? Why don't I remember it? Why do I forget that I have. Have done these things or. I'm this person, and every single time I seem to, like, you know, even. Even now, like, when we are together on this show or even in person, if anybody kind of talks about their achievements or their abilities around me, I get, like, cringe, and it feels weird.
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A
Yeah.
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D
And I'm still getting used to, like, all of these sorts of feelings, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been in a position to talk about this a year ago at all.
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A
No, no, I. I completely agree with that. Which is why, looking back now, like, the other episodes, I mean, even I have imposter syndrome. I'll talk about that in a minute. But it's. It's in relation to the podcast. It's a huge reason why the podcast is so much better than it was when we first started. I even cringe a little bit when I go back and listen to the old episodes, mostly because the music wasn't as cool. But I. And my mic. My mic was terrible. But I cringe a little bit because I'm like, oh, I thought I was very confident, and I can. I can hear it in my own voice. I'm nowhere near as confident as. As I am now. But you, my friend, have just monumentally improved with your confidence. And the difference between then and now is that you wouldn't have been able to talk about it. Then because you. You didn't have enough experience to talk about it. And that's the whole point of this being the neurodivergent experience is you were gaining experience, which now you're in a position where you have gained that experience, that you can talk about it. But just for the people who don't know, Imposter syndrome is a very quick breakdown. It's an internal experience of believing that you are not as competent or intelligent as others perceive you to be. So essentially, you don't feel like you're good enough to do the things that you are good enough to do. It's kind of like the opposite to overconfident. You know, there's some people who just think that they can literally do anything and then they naff at it, and then they have that cognitive dissonance where they believe that they. They know something they don't. And then it's. It's not even an un. I think it is a lack of confidence, but it's a complete disbelief of others telling you that you're good at something, even if you are good at something. But you can't convince yourself you're good at it. You can't even be convinced by others that you are good at something or that you are smart or that you are talented or that you are competent or that you are, you know, better. Better than someone else. You know, you will just continuously put yourself down mentally. And I do believe, because this is mostly common with neurodivergent people, I do believe that psychologically it is down to how we are treated when we are very young and that we are put down and we are made to feel like we aren't good enough with the bullying aspect. But I also think it's internalized because we are trying so hard to keep up with neurotypical standards. And then we will fail to do that. And even if people don't point out those failures or don't mock those failures, we will internalize those failures and we will take them on board and we will think, well, I'm not good enough because I couldn't keep up with everybody else. Especially when you don't know your neurodivergent and you think you should be like other people and do the things they do. And you don't focus on all the great things that you can do because most of the time you just want to fit in with everyone else. And if you can't keep up with them on the things that they're good at, because those are the things that you might struggle with. You're only ever going to feel like you are the problem. And when you grow up thinking you are the problem as an adult, you'll get out of that mindset. Oh, mate. So much therapy with Ashley. So much therapy with Ashley to get out of that mindset.
- [10:52]
D
This is a result of a lot of therapy. Yeah, for sure. And, like, I think about, like, the person that I was before I sort of had my neurodivergent awakening and self diagnosed, diagnosing, not believing it, and then self diagnosing again. In that because I was such a highly masking person, I felt like any success that I had was based on baking, was like, fake it till you make it. And everything felt like a performance. It never felt like a skill. It felt like I was pretending to be good at something rather than just organically being good at it, you know, Raise your hand if you're listening. How many of us got called lazy or dramatic or not living up to our potential?
- [11:34]
A
Yeah, could try harder. Easily distracted.
- [11:42]
D
Yeah, we've all got the same school reports by the sounds of things. And it's so true in that I used to work for a top radio station. I've also, like, worked in the West End for theaters. And these are the, like, the top echelons of where sort of people work. And the whole time I was there, dude, the whole time, I just did not feel like I was capable. Like, I was just waiting to mess it up. Everybody. You'd soon find out, and it had all just sort of come crumbling down. And I was just sort of like my own worst enemy because I had in, like, executive dysfunction with that as well. And everything is just slightly harder. Like having confidence and believing that you can do something, especially in those sorts of environments, like theater, performance, broadcasting environments, literally 90% of it is just confidence is just believing that you can do something. Having a sort of make it so attitude and, you know, just sort of pulling it off at the last minute. So much of it is. Everything is an absolute shit show. But we pulled it off in the end. That sort of environment, that sort of anxiety brought out the best in me. But when everything was said and done, I was like, I could have so easily have messed that up. In fact, I did mess it up. And I'm amazed that nobody caught that I messed it up. And every single time, I felt like I was just flying by the seat of my pants with everything. And at no point did I go, I'm here on merit. I deserve to be here. The reason as to why you've got that job is because you are capable of doing the job. I just had this sort of internalized feeling that I just lied my way into this job and eventually everybody was going to find out I was going to be the boy that cried wolf and I'd get fired. It never happened, but every single day I walked into work, that's what I felt like could happen.
- [13:37]
A
Yeah, I think it's the killer of dreams. I think because there's. It's so often that we will not do something or give up on something very quickly that we potentially could have been really, really good at simply because we completely lack the self confidence. So if we are not immediately good at something, we will just say, well, then I will never be good at it. Which, which is a horrible way to think. But not horrible as in I'm blaming myself for thinking that way. It's a horrible way to be made to think because that is how I've been conditioned in my head of, well, you're just crap or something. So it's like at school. So I'd be like, okay, we're going to go and play tennis. And I'd be like, well, I've never played tennis. And then I'd go hit the ball and I'd miss it or I wouldn't hit it hard. And then everyone be laughing at you. Everyone be mocking. So yeah, there's. There's a feeling, there's a little word. He's done it again. And the fact is, if you're a popular kid or cool kid or people liked you and you mucked up, they were like, don't worry dude, you'll get it next time. Not me. I never got that. They were like. And, and it would always be derogatory to do with my, my, my abilities. So I would be like, oh, well, I guess I'll never be. Or I was just too nervous to even try and do something. So I would just like fake being sick or something like that because I wouldn't.
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D
Yeah.
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A
Want to be mocked in front of other people.
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D
That's such a good point. I turned down so many opportunities out of the fear of public failure. Like, there was so many opportunities that I was given that were essentially promotions that I passed up for myself because I was like, no, I'll mess that up. I'm not the right person for you.
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A
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, big time.
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D
That's something that I've been guilty of. And you know, you then look back on it and you. All the regret. But then, you know, it wasn't the right time. No, like it's, it is difficult. It is difficult. Like and another thing as well that I've been guilty of and we'll go to a break after this is overworking to prove that you belong to be there as well, which then results in extreme burnout. I have done that where I have gone. Yeah, I can do that. Yep. No, I can, I can do that to try and prove myself and then I've eagerness to please just, yeah, just formed and done things that I'm not capable of doing and then almost self prophesizing, you know, turning down opportunities that I could have done and then throwing myself into things that I know I'm not good at in a hope of proving my worth and failing at it and then going, oh, I was right all along, I shouldn't have done that. I knew I was not right for that. Oh, I was. I've proved myself right. And that's the most damning thing that I think I've found with poster syndrome.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a break and then we can talk about a little bit more about, you know, what we've, we've been through and then how we have managed to begin to overcome it.
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B
Walmart business is in the business of helping your business, regardless of whether you're building bridges or building spreadsheets or building lesson plans. Ooh, that looks fun. Walmart business can help save you time, money and hassle so you can focus on what you're building instead of what your supply closet is missing. In short, we take care of business so you can do more with yours. Wear the Walmart you love now for your business.
- [17:25]
C
Learn more@business.walmart.com avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is with thumbtack. You don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today.
- [17:52]
D
This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it Won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start. RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the weight. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. It's a fun one. Today we're talking about imposter syndrome. I don't deserve to be. No one likes me.
- [19:39]
A
Yeah. I said to you last night when we were talking about when we were in prep, I was like, why do we even bother doing this? No one's listening. No one loves us. No one cares. And then it's like, oh, you got 105,000 downloads. And I'm like, fine.
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D
Okay.
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A
I suppose they're all Russian bots. No one really listens to the. If you do really listen.
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D
No. The virgin comrade.
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A
Please comment. Because genuinely, I look at Spotify and I look at the comments and there's just, like, one comment. And I'm just like, oh, now there's a few.
- [20:16]
D
Now we're getting a couple. Like, especially. I was replying to a few last night, people that have found our EDS episode and gone, oh, my God, I have learned so much from finding this episode in your podcast. And I've gone, oh, that's so great. Please come back. Hang around. No, take. Take in the view.
- [20:34]
A
So what. What is the worst thing that you struggled with as far as this podcast is concerned, when it comes to imposter syndrome? Like, what has triggered it more than anything else? Put you on the spot.
- [20:48]
D
If people knew the real me, they wouldn't listen.
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A
Genuinely, I know the real you and that's why I do listen. But that makes. Yeah, it makes sense to think that way.
- [20:58]
D
Yeah. It's like, why would anybody want to listen to what I've got to say? Like, that's genuinely, like, a feeling that I've thought. Like, oh, I have produced many Podcasts and helped people launch their own. And I've had a lot of meetings with people that go, yeah, me and my. My friend are going to bitch about our wives in a. In an echoey bathroom for three hours. Because that's never been done before. And I've sat in front of a lot of people that, like, have ideas for podcasts. And I go, that's great. You do you. I don't think it's a great idea, but you do you. Because I know what sort of. I don't like, say what's there. It is. There's that feeling because I know what works and how to produce content and audio in a way that now can build you an audience and actually give you a show. I know how to do it for other people, but doing it for myself, that was tough. Like, really, really tough. Like, actually fighting through that feeling. Hence why I do it with you. Because I would not be able to do this on my own. Like, to actually sit down and commit to myself and go, right, you are doing it. Open a microphone, press record, and be satisfied if nobody listens. I just couldn't get through it. I just could not get through that thing of going, what if you make something and nobody likes it? What if you make something and nobody listens? Then why even bother? And that's why I never made anything for myself, is why I've always been the bridesmaid and never the bride with so much like, creative content creation. Because I've always looked at other people and gone, well, they're obviously way more talented than I am, way more intelligent than I am. So why would I put myself out there when there's so many other people that are way better than me? And I've had to just sort of really allow myself to grow, take and take patience with myself and really not put any pressure on myself. Because with this podcast, you listen to those first few episodes, Dude, I'm. I'm like a bloody wallflower. I'm so shy. And now I feel like I've brought the energy that I bring to this microphone into my everyday life now. It has genuinely been one of the most healing things I've ever done. That's not hyperbole. Yeah. It took me such a long time to get the confidence to even message you back and go, I'm really sorry. I've been hiding away for a year because I've not had the confidence to even ask you if we can do this, let alone do it.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah, I think it's even more difficult nowadays, especially with the younger generation to get any self worth and self confidence because so much of that self worth and self confidence is put into likes and comments and social media shares. And obviously I fell into that pattern as well, especially with my photography where I was saying okay, is this a good picture? Is this not a good picture? And instead of asking myself is it? I would, I would judge it on whether or not how many likes it got. And it wasn't until I understood reach and algorithms and things like that that I didn't put any self worth of how good I was at photography in the likes and shares and comments because I realized that it's, it's just a lottery when it, when it comes to social media. But so many people will put their self worth into how others on social media feel and feel about them. I nearly did that thing where I started sentence and didn't finish it, but I didn't folks. Anyway, but it's the irony of putting so much self worth in social media is that social media is so toxic, it's so bad, it can be wonderful. I've had wonderful experiences on my page doing this podcast, you know, and even Instagram, which I barely ever even use now, but I've had wonderful experiences and, and chatted and met amazing people and if it wasn't for social media, I would never have met you, I would never have met Pickle, I would never have met my new mum, Anne, who I love very much. She adopted me. You know, I, I, I'm not gonna leave anyone out. So you know, there is so many friends, Ben and Ren and Graham and Carl and I've left you out, I'm sorry. But I've got so many wonderful people in my life because of social media, because of the page. But it, it has definitely taken its toll on me sometimes and especially it's like so negative, like so negative. And I've actually had to have therapy and work. That's another one. I would never have met Ashley. I would never have met Ashley if it wasn't for my page and her reaching out to me. I would never have met Marie Locke who I literally did the book with. I would never have been able to write the book that has sold so many copies and helped so many people. I would never be there to do any of this thing without social media. I should never have put my self worth into that. But at the same time that gave me self worth. It's a double edged sword, man. It's so hard out there.
- [26:21]
D
So hard, isn't it?
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A
So hard.
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D
So hard. And I remember as well, I can't remember if it still does this, but certain Instagram pages don't have likes on their posts. And I think it wasn't necessarily a choose to have or have not thing. At one point I think Instagram was like, we're getting rid of the like counter.
- [26:40]
A
Yeah, no, that's very good for your mental health.
- [26:43]
D
But some people were like, but that's the whole point. That's the whole point of posting. What's the point of making content if I don't know how many people have liked it? And that made me go, that's a lot of self worth relying on those likes. And I've seen it from people I've known, people that have had Instagram pages for five years who post absolutely everything that other people post. The same aesthetic, the same coffee shops, the same outfits, the same holidays, the same poses. And they go, I've been posting for five years and my page only has 5,000 likes or 5,000 followers. And I expected to be a famous influencer by now. It's like, oh gosh, that is a dangerous sort of place to put all of your hope and self worth into a page online. And I use Instagram. I put my hand up, I'm guilty of doom scrolling. I can spend way more time on it than I like to. I can get a little bit lost. But the thing that I always come back to is, but how would I keep in touch with certain friends if I didn't have Instagram, if I didn't know what they were doing? And then I don't really. I'm like one of those people that never posts. I just watch. Yeah, but that thing that I said earlier, like if you knew the real me, you'd leave. I vividly remember when I was working in radio, there was this study that was done that was like on in Timeout magazine or something along that line. It might have been the Evening Standard, but it was definitely London focused. And it was saying, would you rather have a 6 out of 10 life? But everyone think you have a 9 out of 10 life. Would you rather have a 9 out of 10 life? And everyone think that you have a 6 out of 10 life. Everybody chose to have a worse life, but everyone think it was better than actually just have a better life and nobody care or know about it. And that to me was like just it. It frazzled my brain. But then at the same time I have been somebody who was always masked and given off this impression of I'm fine, everything's fine, I'm not unhappy. Everything's great when I've been miserable. So I kind of understand that thing, but that was like the. Just the difficulty that I've always had with. With social media. I've always felt so fake, and I feel like a lot of people are fake on it and they, and they. They aren't themselves. And it makes me wonder, you know, like, I've got certain friends who create these aesthetics. And don't get me wrong, you know, some of them are content creators. That's their business, that's the industry that they're in. But the amount of photos that they take of everything. And I'm a little bit like, are you living. If you're constantly taking photos of everything, do you need to take a photo of every single meal that you eat? But I genuinely have friends. I know what they eat every meal of every day if I'm on their Instagram page. Genuinely.
- [29:29]
A
Yeah. I, I mean, I was never really into. Well, I wasn't into social media at all. Like, I. I'd never used it. I. I had a Facebook account that my wife made me, which I. I went on once to look for an old friend and found them and then chatted with them and then never use Facebook again. I was like, it. I got what I wanted out of Facebook, which essentially, which is what it was for in the first place, which was to communicate with old friends. And the only reason I went on it in the beginning of 2019 was basically I was just wanted to put my pictures there to. To, like, join local photography groups. It was just reaching out because it was social. I never expected it to blow up like it did. I never expected to be where I am now.
- [30:13]
D
I.
- [30:13]
A
Literally all I was looking for was a couple of people who lived around my area who might want to meet up and take some pictures and be some friends. I never imagined for one second that people would be like, holy crap, those pictures are amazing. And it took me a long time to. To one understand how good I am at photography because I couldn't understand what they were saying. They were like, you don't get it. Like, well, I've been doing this for 20 years and I can't take a picture like you. You've been doing it for, like, two months. And I couldn't grasp that because I was like, yeah, but I'm not good at things. I'm not. I'm not that good at things.
- [30:51]
D
Yeah.
- [30:53]
A
So how bad are you? Like, that may be just you. And I was thinking most people could probably take pictures like me it's just, you know, I'm. Or, or it's a fluke. I remember I did an article once and I was talking about how many pictures I take because of ADHD and someone literally commented in the newspaper, I think it was an article in the sun and someone was mean and they said, oh well, if I took a thousand pictures, I'm about to get one right. What they. And I was like, yep, I actually agree with you that it's all basically a fluke. And that's how my brain was going. Despite how good I was. I was saying, oh, maybe it's just all a fluke. But then the fact is, is that a thousand of Those pictures, like 300 of them were the same picture because of my ADHD and because of my OCD. And I took a picture of the same thing so many times and it was never about the pictures, about the composition. So nowadays I just, I will look at the competition and say, look, it doesn't matter how many pictures I took of that one lake. It's like I was just trying to get it right because I, I still have that fear of like, oh, I didn't get it right, I didn't get it right. But I'm a lot, lot better. So when I would take a thousand, I probably mount, take, literally just take a hundred pictures when, when I go out for a trip. It, it is funny because the more I've done something, the more positive feedback I got. In this one occasion I actually stuck with something and actually was able to improve very quickly. But I do wonder if I'd taken up photography and I hadn't been as good as I was as quickly as I was. And for anyone listening, I took a picture a week after I bought my first camera and that won the South Downs Photography competition the following year. It was on international TV everywhere. And that was a picture I took a week. So like, yes, it might have been a fluke, but I think that if you go and look at my photography, you realize that that wasn't a fluke. I genuinely am very, very good at photography. But if I, if I wasn't that good straight away, would I have given up? And I think the answer is yes, I think I would have given up.
- [33:07]
D
I think that's the thing as well that's so difficult about the ND brain, is that because you're a bottom up processor like I am, you will find reasons as to why you aren't good at something because you're analytical and you can dissect a lot of Your thoughts. And I do this. I look at a lot of things that I do and I go, well, that was obviously a fluke. Like, I think it's so true in what you were saying. Like, if, you know, you hadn't had the accelerated success that you'd had with your photography, I can understand as to why you would pack it in. And I've had things like that, that there are certain things that I've tried that I've been good at really quickly and I've kind of given up. But then again, I can hear that internalized voice in my head going, oh, Jack of all trades, master of none. And it's like I have all of these little things that are constantly playing in my head that just sort of like, are almost like my own comment feed in my brain that are just like the two old, like Stadler and Waldorf in the Muppets berating me from the, from the balcony. And you know, I really struggle with compliments. I really struggle with it. Oh, so I can only imagine, I can only imagine, like once you started doing photography, like, and we've discussed this before as well, like, did you just go to. People only rate my photos because they think, you know, because I'm autistic?
- [34:30]
A
Yeah, like, immediately, that was my first ever thing, which is why I didn't tell people that I was autistic at first, because I, I just started posting on a group because my photos were, were getting so much attention on this one group. And I started, you know, hyper fixating and I was posting so many and I, I felt like I was taking over the group in a way. And I felt really bad because I had so many pictures I wanted to share with. I got so excited at the reactions again, the first time anyone has ever said anything nice about the things that I've doing that were so important to me outside of my family. And I was just, it was like a high, you know, I was like, oh my God, people saying nice stuff. So that's, that's when I started getting the. Oh, God, I'm, I'm being annoying. And this is the whole imposter syndrome of like, oh, maybe I'm not that good. Maybe it was just, you know, maybe they're just being nice. But then I was like, okay, so because of the imposter syndrome, because I felt like I was being annoying and I was upsetting everyone even though I wasn't. I literally said, oh, I'm really sorry I'm posting so much. It's just that I'm Autistic and I get very excited when, when, when I get really into something. And that was the first time I said that I was autistic was after everyone was saying nice things. So I didn't, I didn't feel like that was the reason they said nice things because they didn't know I was autistic. It certainly has popped into my head every now and again. And it's like, well, I don't think, I don't think I would have had the articles. I don't think I would have been on TV like I was. I don't think I would have had the attention that I had if I was like, oh, I'm a dad and I'm a photographer. Yes, it was because I said I was autistic is where people were like, oh, make a story out of that. Which is why I tried to turn it on its head. And instead of it making a story about, oh, this autistic man is good at photography, you know, despite him being autistic, I would turn on his head and every interview and say, well, actually I'm good at photography because I'm autistic. That, that's why I'm good at this. And I wasn't seeing that. And I see that a lot now. People are saying that a lot now and it's wonderful to hear. But I didn't see any of that when I first said it. I said it because that's how I felt, which is why the photography so good for my mental health. But yeah, it, it does happen a lot. Is this, it's the pity party. And we, we have talked about this before and I don't like that. I don't like people tapping people on the head saying good for you. And, and I definitely seen it with like some people out there that are just really bad at singing or really bad at art and everyone's kissing their ass saying how amazing they are, how great they are because they're autistic or because they're disabled. And you did a thing.
- [37:32]
D
Yeah, it's, it is patronizing.
- [37:35]
A
It gives me the creep, patronizing. And I really hate it. I really do.
- [37:41]
D
And I think that could feed imposter syndrome as well. Like there is sort of. There's nothing worse than being told you are good at something and then having the rug pulled out from under your feet. Because that is, that's the one of the things that killed me so much with my self confidence.
- [37:58]
A
You've also, when you are good at something and you see that people. And I know it's subjective with art, but, I mean, if someone's, like, genuinely not good coming, like, it's just obvious and people are like, oh, you're amazing. And then you're like, oh, so they're probably bullshitting me as well then.
- [38:15]
D
Yeah, right, exactly. And that's, like, one of the worst things, I think, like, with Imposter Syndrome is I had success as being an actor when I was younger, like, between the ages of, like, 16 to 22, 23, I was doing really well. I was working, I was in stuff, and my confidence fell and I stopped getting things. And it reinforced how I felt about myself. I was like, oh, you've been found out. That's right. That's it. It's over for you. It never was in. Even there in the first place. People were just filling you with crap. And I. Yeah, I. I have really sort of struggled with that. I had this sort of, like, if you're not first, your last mentality. Even when I was first, when people were like, oh, congratulations. I just didn't know what to do. Like, I remember I won an award at the Student Radio Awards, and I stood up and I literally just got in front of the microphone and went, thanks. And just didn't know what to say.
- [39:11]
A
I started to laugh. But that was literally me. Thank you.
- [39:17]
D
Yeah. And like. But then after that, I was like, I should have said more. I should have done this. Like, somebody mentioned to me. I can't remember who now, but it was the other day where they were talking about, like, passing on the stairs. It's like, somebody you'll say something to somebody you'll go up the stairs, like, on the escalator, and then you go, oh, shit, I should have said this. Oh, I should have said that. Like, that would have been really, like, a good rebuttal to somebody 20 years ago. And that is sort of like the really difficult cocktail I have with it. But I'm so much better. I am so much better than I used to be. I need to give myself credit on how far I've come with this, because I'm a million miles away from where I was a year ago.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah. I don't think my alexithymia has ever affected me as much as anybody telling me that I'm good at photography or it's not. When they say I'm good at photography, I'm like, thank you for stating a fact. It's when they're, oh, I love your pictures. I love them. They're so beautiful. I bought, like, 10 of them. I Love them. In reality, I'm like, oh, thank you. That's so wonderful. And, oh, which one do you. I want to have a whole conversation about it, but I just go, well, yeah, I'm really good. And they're like, yeah, you're so good. I'm like, yes, yes, I am. And Sylvia's like, you, you've got to stop saying that because it sounds arrogant. And I was like, right. But I'm deer in the headlights. I don't know what to say. So I just agree with them. And they go, oh, you're so good. And I go, yes, yes, I am. So it's like, even if I'm agreeing with somebody, apparently I shouldn't have done that, and I should have been more humble. And I'm like, but isn't me being humble?
- [40:50]
D
Believe in yourself, but not too much.
- [40:52]
A
That's it. But being humble feeds into my imposter syndrome of like, well, you're not good enough. So at least by me saying yes, I'm actually really good at photography. Because even though I'm talking about it now, and even though I'm super successful with it, I still feel icky saying that I'm really good at photography. I still feel icky saying, I feel.
- [41:15]
D
Icky sometimes even when you say it, because I'm like.
- [41:17]
A
Like, it just.
- [41:18]
D
It's like secondhand imposter syndrome.
- [41:21]
A
I know, right? It's like, I'm so good at this thing. And you're going, he is really good. But does he have to say it?
- [41:27]
D
And the answer is.
- [41:29]
A
The answer is yes, I do have to keep saying it, because I. Because I. I believe it. And I think that it just helps if I'm. If I say it about the thing that I know that I'm good at it, it might help with the things that I am good at, but I don't think that I'm good at. Maybe it feeds that positivity of that one thing that I believe I'm really, really good at or that I know. I know deep down I'm really good at this one thing. Even though I'm. I am good at more things, I don't have the confidence of being good at those other things as much as I have with photography. I hope everyone's following me because I'm really, really bad at this. So if I keep saying I'm really good at photography, maybe finally I'll turn around and go, actually, I'm really good at these other things that everyone else tells me I'm good at.
- [42:17]
D
Yeah, I think that's yeah, yeah, right. Let's take a little break. And on the back of that we'll go, here's things that we think may help you because they kind of help us. I think.
- [42:28]
A
I think everyone needs a break. I just blew their brains away with that really weird explanation of brain works. Good luck with that. Everyone.
- [42:41]
B
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- [43:10]
C
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- [43:34]
D
Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast Ashley Bentley of Integrated Coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit Lynch Forward Slash Ashley nde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Jordan didn't spend the break trying to explain what he meant there. Imposter syndrome.
- [45:12]
A
I have. I have no idea what I am talking about. And if anyone is getting any positivity out of anything I'm talking about, then I guess that imposter syndrome.
- [45:23]
D
Can you put it in a sentence?
- [45:25]
A
Yeah.
- [45:26]
D
You just did.
- [45:26]
A
I'm crap at everything. No one likes me. Everybody hates me.
- [45:30]
D
Right?
- [45:30]
A
Oh, saying that just. That. That just invokes a memory of when I was a kid that literally when. When I was getting told off or. Or when, you know, most of the time I was getting, like, abused or bullied or whatever, what I would do is I would. I would go. I had a bunk bed. I would go to the top of my bunk, and I would cover myself with my cover, and I would lay under the COVID and I would scream into a pillow. Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. And it's literally the opposite of looking in the mirror saying, everybody loves me, nobody hates me. But as a child, I was screaming that into a pillow. Everybody hates me. Nobody loves me. And I just. I remember that so vividly. And I would. I did that for years and years and years and just mentally just destroying my confidence.
- [46:19]
D
I used to come home from school, dude, and literally look at myself in the mirror and be like, why are you like this? Like, why. Why do you have to be like this? People would like you if you weren't like this. Oh, crikey. Crikey.
- [46:33]
A
Anyway, so bad for everyone who is just like us, both sides.
- [46:38]
D
That's why we're here, to share his experiences. Yeah. And this is the thing, dude, is like, we. We have. We have got better with this. It's. It's taking practice, and we have got better at this. So one of the things, genuinely, that has really helped me moving forward with this from, like, a neurodivergent experience perspective. And I know it sounds really simple, but I often ask myself, if a friend said this about themselves, would I believe it? So, like, when I have. I have been on. There have been times with you where we've been struggling with our confidence of this show. And I'm sure you won't mind me sharing this. You've been on the phone with me, upset, going, I am rubbish at this. Like, I am not very good at this. I can't do this, I can't do that. I can't do this. And I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop, stop, stop. You are good at this. You're really good at this. Just believe in yourself. And I have had to think about myself as my. As a friend. I have had to Treat myself as my own friend and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You. You shouldn't be saying this about yourself. You need to, you know, sort of brain check yourself. And one of the things that I have had to learn to do is to take the advice of my friends, is trust that my friends are my friends. They have the best of. Of heart in my interests. So when I have run you up in tears, in floods of tears before and gone, I don't know if I should do this, dude. I think I should just produce a show that you do. I don't think I should talk. And every single time you have said to me, simon, that is bollocks. Are great at this. You can do this. I believe in you. And that is genuinely one of the most healing things that I've, I've ever experienced, is being honest with how you feel about yourself to the people you trust the most and then trust what they're saying to you is true.
- [48:39]
A
It's. It's a difficult balance to, to find. Like I said, it's hard.
- [48:44]
D
It's practice.
- [48:45]
A
Yeah, I, I think the worst thing, the biggest enemy of this is literally as soon as you actually do start feeling confident and, and acting confident, people who also lack confidence latch onto that and their envy then turns into malice and people then start putting you down. So previous people might have built you up, might have said, oh, you're actually really good at that. And you turn around and go, yeah.
- [49:13]
D
No, I am until you surpass me and I can't be having that.
- [49:16]
A
And then that same person goes, well, I mean, well, you're not that good at that. And it's, it's so funny because RSD is a big part of this. And I had, I. I had. This was like, I'm really, really proud the, the new car I'm buying and I sent it to all my friends and I was like, oh, yeah, it's. And it's like a really nice green. It looks kind of bit like a warthog. It's like, it's like a tiny suv, but it's like, oh, it's my little warthog.
- [49:39]
D
We've been talking about the warthog a lot the past few days.
- [49:42]
A
It is the Halo warthog. And everyone's been really positive, like, oh, yeah, it's really nice. And, and I'm so happy for you. And then I sent it to my sister and she was like, yeah, that's all right. And I was like, oh, maybe I shouldn't get it. Maybe it's rubbish. Maybe it's crap. And like, it's like, what is, what is wrong with me, right? Like, because my sister wasn't the biggest fan of it, and then suddenly one.
- [50:13]
D
Out of ten, one out of ten reviews.
- [50:18]
A
I, I, I. Sorry to out my sister on this, but you deserve this because you should have been her exact. Oh, yes, not bad.
- [50:29]
D
Oh, doesn't mean it's not good though, does it?
- [50:31]
A
Oh, fine. And when are you paying your mortgage off?
- [50:36]
D
Delete your number. Just text it. I would just text back, be like.
- [50:40]
A
Who'S this sibling rivalry. I'm such an. I was like, you're still renting, are you?
- [50:48]
D
I know.
- [50:49]
A
Yeah, I was. I'm a dick. I can't help it. But yeah, it's, it's just a bit of bounce. It's not, not real. It's just, it's just sibling banter, which is, which is fantastic. I have a sense of humor. But yeah, it's just so weird. This is just like someone saying not bad, and suddenly I'm like, well, that was, that was a terrible decision. I'm really sure that. But then the really good hint is try and weigh up the positives against the negatives. And rather than the negatives washing away the positives, try and focus on that positives. Now, I know that sounds like a really, like, cliche thing to say, because it is, but it also actually works. And just trying to ignore the negatives is it's literally your best bet. Like, that's how I got through it. But like I said, therapy with Ashley, I needed help with that. It wasn't something I could just be like, oh, I can do that. Today I needed help. So if you need help with this, then I would suggest to get help with this. Because we can't always help ourselves as much as demand avoidance wants us to.
- [52:02]
D
And one of the things that I learned in therapy quite early on, which is a tool that you. And annoyingly, my brain does this. It forgets good information. And I remember just the only things you know, just irrelevant stuff. Tell you the code at the bottom of eyes, white dragon, Yu Gi. Oh, card. But not what I learned in therapy. But one phrase that I learned and I kept saying to myself is, you aren't your thoughts and feelings. You just have them. And that has really helped me with this. And I have to reinforce it. I say it to myself quite a lot is, remember, Simon, you aren't your thoughts and feelings. You just have them. And your feelings aren't facts as well. Is I've had to learn how to Say thank you. And not in the sense of somebody does something nice to me. I say, thank you. You. It's that if. You know, I. I had it recently where a guy called Wes I met on a. A call said, your podcast changed my life. It saved my life. I feel so much happier. Me and my wife are happier in our relationship. I listen to you in Jordan every week and thank you. And I just burst into tears because I was like, oh, my God, like, what do I do with all of this emotion? And I just went, no, thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for believing in me and for believing in me and Jordan and what we're doing, and we couldn't do it without you. That is a huge, huge step for me to take, is to accept a thank you and to go, no, thank you.
- [53:29]
A
See, this is. It's so weird because you're saying that and I'm sitting here going, ah, just. Yeah, he's right. He's probably just being nice, right?
- [53:40]
D
I mean, but you've got to.
- [53:42]
A
You know, I can't imagine for one second that anything that I've ever said has actually saved someone's life or changed someone's life or helped anyone in any way whatsoever, in any meaningful way. Like as. And. And hundreds of people, probably thousands.
- [54:03]
D
Dude, there's thousands of people booing now, going, boom.
- [54:06]
A
Yeah. There are thousands of people through my advocacy that have reach and that I know that I have helped, but in my bloody brain, I'm still thinking, nah, they probably just being nice. And literally, I have about five messages today and yesterday of people saying that exact thing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And every time, I'm just like, thumbs up, thank you back. I guess I say thank you to them. Like, I don't know what I'm thanking them from. Thanking them for thanking me. And we're all thanking each other, and it's all very British.
- [54:42]
D
It's all very British.
- [54:45]
A
But at the same time, I go, if someone says, oh, I love your photography, I'm like, yeah, I know you do.
- [54:49]
D
Of course you do.
- [54:50]
A
And it's so funny. It's so. It's so funny. It's like, see? So, yeah, I need. I need. I need. We everybody. And I know this sounds really easy to do, and again, it's not. Is just keep giving yourself little confidence boosts. So even if you don't think that you're really good at something everybody thinks you're good at, try and find the little things that you think you good at. Even if it's like, Daily chores, like, daily things. Just like, just think, okay, I did that thing. Oh, I'm actually pretty good at that. Even if it's hoovering. Like, I actually enjoy hoovering because, like, I really like going in every corner and I just, I make a little bit, but I'm rubbish at hoovering. But I like to, I like to think that I'm really good at it. Says the man who puts the robo back on every day.
- [55:44]
D
I'm very good at turning him on and putting him on charge. But you're right, dude, you've got to celebrate the small wins. Like, I used to get out of bed some days and I'd sleep in and I'd literally like get out, look at myself in the mirror and go, you're a piece of shit. How's that helpful? That's not helpful at all, is it really? And just celebrating little wins. Like, I got some work done the other day and I finished it and I did a good job and I sort of like hit save on it and hit export on the edit and I went, did a really good job with that, Simon. Well done. That is a million miles away from where I have been. And that is such a small, little insignificant thing. But it symbolizes a really big change. Just sort of going, you did good today. Even if I did okay, okay's okay. Yeah, it's, it's not easy. Don't get me wrong. I'm not sort of. I'm not trying to, to sit, you know, sit on my high horse and go, I've got it all figured out. Because I absolutely don't.
- [56:44]
A
Obviously now you're doing it again, but I've got better. But you're, but you're doing it right now because you, you, you can sit on a high horse because you have achieved so much. And it's not a high horse in comparison to anyone else. It's the high horse in comparison to the past you. You are on a higher horse than the past you. And that's it. It. Don't compare yourself to any other person, only compare yourself to how you were yesterday in exactly the same way as me with my back. Is like, is my back better than it was yesterday? Is it a little bit better than today? And it's just, it's just taking things step by step because you're not going to turn around tomorrow and go, I'm fabulous and amazing at everything. And if you do, good for you. But you're probably not, does that help? I don't know, Sadistic man. Or did it or did it?
- [57:38]
D
Or am I?
- [57:40]
A
So I. I would. Brain's gone, so. Yeah, I think I'm out of spoons. Right. Bye everyone.
- [57:47]
D
Okay, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for obviously being with us once again at the Neurodivergent Experience. Get in the comments, let us know. Because I know that people struggle with this. I know a lot of people struggle with this, hence why we're talking about it. So get in the comments, let us know. Help us exist. Bye, everybody.
- [58:04]
A
Oh, no. I did remember what I was gonna say.
- [58:06]
D
Oh, no.
- [58:10]
A
Well, tough sounds like a you problem. The. The worst thing that can happen from this trigger warning. So stop listening if you don't like things with trigger warnings is self harm. This can lead to self harm. I have self harmed. Self harm can not only be physical self harming yourself, but pushing other people away, being nasty to people because you want to push them because you don't feel like you're good enough for them. I went through all of that, especially married to Sylvia, who I think is the greatest person ever. I didn't think I was good enough. And you know, self harm comes in many forms. And if you are at the point where you are self harming due to imposter syndrome, please, please get help because it will. It will just get worse and, and it will just catastrophe and catastrophe and will never get better until you reach out to others. So please, please get help if you can.
- [59:20]
D
Very well said, my friend. And we shall leave it there. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for believing in us. We're starting to believe in ourselves too. To so we will be back tomorrow with another hot topic on a Friday. And don't forget Ashley Bentley's Mindful Mondays every single Monday. Start your week right. Get chill and with a bit of purpose. Lots of love, everyone. Take care of yourself. Be kind, be safe out there. See you next time.
- [59:46]
A
Nightly by.
- [59:51]
D
Thanks for tuning in to the Neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, tik tok Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening. And until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [60:58]
B
Hello, this is Jessie and Lenny Ware from Table Manners, a podcast direct from our dining table where we talk all things food, family, growing up, and everything in between. And everything in between. This season we've had Reese Witherspoon reveal the greatest cookie recipe. We had Gary Oldman, who's freshly knighted. Sir Gary Oldman.
- [61:17]
D
Sir Gary Oldman.
- [61:18]
B
We did some singing with Gloria Estefan. And Jeremy Allen White has shared some culinary stories with us. And it's not just this series. We've had plenty of other brilliant guests where you can listen back to all the episodes. People like Cher, Dolly Parton, Kate Winslet, St. Paul McCartney, John Legend, Benny Blanco, and Selena Gomez. We've had them all and we fed them very well. Come and listen to Table Manners, the podcast with me, Jesse Ware, and Lenny Ware.
- [61:44]
D
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.