Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Object Permanence and Neurodivergent Life

Summary

The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Object Permanence and Neurodivergent Life

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Date: September 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the concept of object permanence and its impact on neurodivergent individuals, particularly those with ADHD and autism. Jordan and Simon explore the struggles, misconceptions, and practical consequences of living with object permanence challenges, sharing raw personal stories and practical strategies. The discussion also highlights how lack of object permanence can affect relationships, organization, routine, and emotional well-being, advocating for greater understanding, self-compassion, and supportive environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates & Banter (01:09–10:07)

• Jordan shares a harrowing story about a recent health scare involving extreme back pain, ambulance support, and the unexpectedly positive community support he received.
  • “I’ve never felt so not alone in my life. And it’s incredible, like, when social media is actually used for good.” (07:07)
• Lighthearted chatter showcases their friendship and the underlying compassionate tone of the podcast.

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2. Defining Object Permanence & Its Neurodivergent Implications (10:07–15:05)

• Simon introduces the main topic, prompted by an online reel discussing object permanence from a neurodivergent perspective.
  • “So much of my life, I forget that people exist. And it’s not like I forget that they exist. It’s if you aren’t in front of me, you don’t exist.” (10:32)
• Object permanence explained through the Piaget model and expanded to include emotional and memory aspects.
  • “It’s not just about physical objects... It can extend to time, memory, and emotional constancy.” (11:35)

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3. Object Permanence in Daily Neurodivergent Life (15:05–21:45)

• Both discuss how challenges with object permanence manifest:

  • Forgetting people exist unless directly interacting.
  • Struggles with remembering tasks, bills, birthdays, food in cupboards, responsibilities, and obligations.
  • Dependence on external reminders, visible cues, and routines imposed by others (“if it’s not in my diary, it doesn’t exist”). (16:26)
  • “Out of sight, out of mind. Things feel as if they don’t exist unless we’re actively cued.” (16:49)

• Emotional permanence issues:

  • Difficulty trusting others still care when not present.
  • Forgetting birthdays; alleviated by using reminders/calendars.

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4. Object Permanence, Social Relationships & Trauma (21:45–36:56)

• Simon shares a university memory demonstrating how object permanence challenges affected his responsibilities and resulted in negative reactions from others:
  • “I completely forgot that said meeting even existed... my lecturer had driven an hour and a half into London to come to this meeting, wait for me for an hour and then go home. The dressing down that I got... wasn’t fair.” (24:13)
• Both reflect on how forgetting important social obligations (e.g., events, birthdays, commitments) can sabotage relationships and fuel internalized ableism.
  • “The amount of mental abuse I would give myself over these moments… why the hell can’t you remember this?” (26:59)

Notable Quote:

• Simon: “As soon as I started advocating and being publicly open about neurodivergence, my two original friends from the group have really rekindled their friendship with me because they know that I’m not an asshole, I’m just disabled.” (33:12)

• Discussion about negative assumptions people make about those with object permanence issues and the need for more understanding:

  • “Wouldn’t it be lovely if people’s first thought wouldn’t be a negative one? What a wonderful world we’d live in…” (34:31)

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5. Chronic Forgetfulness in Practical Life (36:56–53:03)

• Clutter and Routine:
  • Difficulty keeping spaces tidy or remembering to complete everyday tasks.
  • “I never don’t have mess... I just don’t see it.” (37:30)
• Simon describes routines (multiple reminders or visible cues needed), and how executive dysfunction complicates even seemingly simple steps (choosing what to hang up in the closet, prioritizing “favorite” items).
• Both highlight internal conflict between a desire for order and the inability to maintain it due to neurodivergent wiring.

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6. Practical Strategies & Tools (53:03–74:33)

What’s Helped:

• Alarms & Reminders: Both advocate for recurring reminders (phone/calendar) for events, birthdays, bills, and chores.
  • “Now I have it as like a repeated thing that comes up on my phone.” (18:12)
• Shared Calendars and Collaborative Organization: With partners or housemates for mutual reminders.
• Verbalization Technique: Announcing out loud where items are placed (“I’m putting it back, not putting it down”) to cement the action.
  • “That’s helped. I really like using that.” (61:53)
• Digital Tools: Using shared diaries, location trackers ("Tile" for keys and wallets), smart doorbells, password managers, and biometrics.
  • “If I have my phone, I can click the app and go find my wallet… now it will tell me where it is.” (68:12)
• Notepad Apps: Keeping important info, including passwords, in a phone notepad app.

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7. Medication & Self-Compassion (53:03, 56:27)

• Methylphenidate: Both hosts express how ADHD medication helps maintain focus, routine, and emotional regulation in daily tasks, not just at work.
• Supportive Relationships: Both stress how patient, non-punitive support from loved ones (e.g., regular reminders, shared management of daily tasks) is essential and healing.
  • “When these things happen, she doesn’t punish me. She just goes, you need help with that and I’m just going to do what I can to help you.” (55:23)

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8. Challenges in Advocacy & Acceptance (56:46–77:28)

• The need to expand public understanding—object permanence issues are rarely attributed to neurodivergence (“wish it had an official name”).
• Acknowledgement that advice like "just get a diary" is unhelpful without tailored strategies.
  • “There’s always a simple solution to being neurodivergent. Just stop being neurodivergent.” (56:34)
• Both reflect on age, comorbidities, and the reality that these challenges persist or change with time.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jordan:

  • “I’ve never felt so not alone in my life. It’s incredible, like, when social media is actually used for good.” (07:07)
  • “Easy for people to say ADHD means you’re easily distracted… but this is the most disabling part for me—forgetting birthdays, people, appointments.” (27:15)
  • “ADHD is hard, dude. It’s hard because your brain is just doing somersaults on seventeen different trampolines.” (45:31)

• Simon:

  • “So much of my life, I forget that people exist. …If you aren’t in front of me, you don’t exist. …That happens with people.” (10:32)
  • “As soon as I started advocating… my two original friends… really rekindled their friendship… because they know I’m not an asshole, I’m just disabled.” (33:12)
  • “Put it back, don’t put it down—that’s really helped me.” (61:53)
  • “I've had meltdowns with my head in my hand going ‘I am insane. If this was the 50s, they’d have lobotomized me.’” (70:39)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:09–10:07 | Catch-up, health story, neurodivergent banter | | 10:07–15:05 | Introduction to object permanence & neurodivergence | | 15:05–21:45 | Forgetting responsibilities, emotional permanence | | 21:45–36:56 | Social dynamics, losing friends, trauma, ableism | | 36:56–53:03 | Home organization, conflict, humor about forgetfulness | | 53:03–56:27 | Strategies: reminders, advocacy, medication, support | | 56:27–74:33 | Tools, technology, more strategies, relationship tips | | 74:33–77:28 | Reflections, aging, memory fears, listener engagement prompt |

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Advice & Practical Tips

• Use multiple, redundant reminders: Phones, written lists, and calendars.
• Announce actions out loud: Reinforces memory for placement of items.
• Leverage technology: Shared digital calendars, location trackers, password managers.
• Share systems with housemates/partners: Collaboration can reduce shame and increase success.
• Accept accommodations: Medication, external structure, and frequent reminders are necessary supports, not signs of failure.
• Practice self-compassion: Internalized ableism and “why can’t I just remember?” narratives are harmful; self-acceptance is key.
• Normalize the experience: Realizing you’re not alone can reduce shame and enable better solutions.

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Tone & Atmosphere

The hosts maintain a warm, humorous, and validating tone. Discussions are interspersed with jokes, lived examples, and gentle ribbing, but always return to compassion for themselves and others. This fosters a sense of solidarity and relief for listeners who experience similar struggles.

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Call to Listeners (76:31–77:28)

Simon: “I’m interested, as somebody who listens to this podcast—do you forget we exist? Do you come back to our episodes and go, oh yeah, Simon and Jordan, there’s seventy episodes I haven’t caught up with? Or do you just sort of forget everyday stuff? I’m interested to hear…and any suggestions or things that help you—we are all ears. Because this is a continuous battle for both Jordan and I. But I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, dude. It’s so helpful, I'm sure, for listeners, but selfishly for me just to sort of talk about this and go, oh, yeah, you do that too.” (76:31)

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Final Takeaway

“Be kind to yourself… you’re not alone in this journey.” (77:26)

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This summary encapsulates all essential discussion points, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear, authentic, and practical overview of the episode’s content and spirit.

Transcript

[Simon Scott]

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[Simon Scott]

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[Jordan James]

Welcome to the Neurodivergent Experience podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

[Simon Scott]

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend, I'm Simon Scott.

[Simon Scott]

I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

Hello, hello and welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. What up, Scotty?

[Simon Scott]

Hello. Yo, yo, yo. How's it going?

[Jordan James]

Well, I'm. I'm hip and down with the kids. You know what I'm saying?

[Simon Scott]

Down with the utes. As the. As the van says.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, man, I'm young at heart and old in my back. I've got the brain of a 5 year old in the back of an.

[Simon Scott]

85 year old Benjamin Button. All in one body. Yes.

[Jordan James]

All ages at all times getting younger.

[Simon Scott]

And the other bits just decaying and falling apart as you. As you live and breathe. Oh, my friend, my friend. Yeah. So how has your week been? You've been better?

[Jordan James]

No. Yes and no. Got worse before it got better as it always does. Yeah, it started getting better. I even managed actually to go for like a 15 minute walk outside with my walking sticks, you know, looking super cool, but I was like, I was still bent like a pretzel. So it's like my hips is like adjusted to the fact that I had no power in my lower back. And it was. Yeah, it was. I was all twisted. Yeah, I know you appreciated my topless picture that I sent you. Yeah, it's. It is. Was a bit weird when I, when I got back one of those eggplant squirty emojis, but I just assumed that that was.

[Simon Scott]

I wasn't trying to send that to you, but yeah.

[Jordan James]

Ladies and gentlemen, the lies. The light sends me that every morning. He's like thinking of you.

[Simon Scott]

Egg sank emoji picture of me in front of a fire with her.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't really feel very sexy right now, so it's all appreciated.

[Simon Scott]

It's somebody's kink somewhere. That's the beauty of the.

[Jordan James]

It's not mine, but yeah, so I was getting better and then I went to bed in my actual bed rather than sleeping on the chair. And that did not work. So when I got up in the morning, I was like, this doesn't feel good. Started trying to come downstairs. Sylvia was like, that's not working. Try and go on your back. Sorry. On your back. Try and go on your front and come down the stairs backwards. And as I turned around, my foot dropped. It did that sort of jerky drop to, to try and get the stairs. And. Yeah, and then I couldn't move. I was stuck on the, on the top flight of the stairs and my legs were on the stairs and my body was like flat on the landing and, and my nether regions were crushed on a step. I was like, hello. Everybod.

[Simon Scott]

Radius could hear you.

[Jordan James]

That. And. And autistic people.

[Simon Scott]

Yes.

[Jordan James]

With super hearing. Yes. So, yeah, I literally couldn't move. And again. Oh my God, that is the worst pain I've ever had in my life because I, I felt so scared and vulnerable in that moment. And my son, he called for an ambulance. They put me through to the paramedic team who eventually called me back. They. They were able to send out two I can only describe as angels. And you know, I'm, I'm very happy that it, you know, that they did. I'm certainly not complaining about that. But that hour and a half felt like three days, man. Seriously, it was. I was just so scared. And they, they pumped me full of gas and air.

[Simon Scott]

That was pretty, pretty fun. After all that I was high as.

[Jordan James]

A kite and then It. And then it goes away. And I was like, give me that.

[Simon Scott]

Just like Darth Vader on the stairs.

[Jordan James]

It took them 40 minutes to get me off the floor. Oh. Because they were slowly, like, moving my legs, trying to, like, free up enough. Enough of my body, so I was physically able to move, even though it was agony. Managed to get off the floor. Then they. Then they were helping me walk around. Then. Then I managed to get down the stairs because the guy, the. Dan was his name. Shout out to Dan. He was walking down backwards with me, you know, in front of me holding the gas and air tank and I'm just. I'm. Got the. The nozzle in my mouth and I'm just like. So I didn't breathe oxygen all the way down the stairs, I just breathed in the gas and air. And if it wasn't for that, I would never have got downstairs. But essentially, since then, I've just. I've. I've been in my chair. I can't sleep in my bed. I have tried. And then after, like, half an hour, like, no, no, I need to go back downstairs, which is really horrible because Sylvia misses me and I miss. I miss my cuddly toys now. I miss Sylvia as well. But it's. It is getting better. Ladies and gentlemen, for you wonderful people out there that are concerned, I've had a lot of support through my Facebook page. So much support from my friends, from my family. I've never felt so not alone in my life. And it's. It's incredible. Like, when social media is actually used for good.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Jordan James]

But of course, I still got somebody saying, why are you calling for an ambulance? If you can make a. If you can speak to the ambulance people, you shouldn't be calling for an ambulance.

[Simon Scott]

If you had called for an ambulance, you're already dead.

[Jordan James]

And I'm like, so people who are having one of those slow heart attacks, what, get in a car and drive themselves to the hospital. I was like, jesus Christ, what is the ambulance for if it's not for taking people to hospital? But the fact is, I never even went to hospital. It was paramedics, I think they were in a car and they come to assess me. Yeah. So it's not like I was like, stopping. People were having heart attacks, getting emergency services. But at the end of the day, the NHS is so badly underfunded. But we know that because we talk about it all the time.

[Simon Scott]

Afraid so.

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

So.

[Jordan James]

So I've had a lot of trauma, doll.

[Simon Scott]

So this episode could be. Could be listed of the funnel ones.

[Jordan James]

So I, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit floaty. I'm al. You know, I'm able to walk, but not for very long. So I'm, I am doing better. But Tramadol. Tramadol is my friend at the moment.

[Simon Scott]

I bet.

[Jordan James]

And Tramadol, Naproxen, cbd. Still taking my ADHD meds so I can make better decisions and not go, oh, I'm going to do like a little bit.

[Simon Scott]

Do you know, a cartwheel?

[Jordan James]

Now, before we start, I, I will just tell you quickly, this is, this is how absolutely dumb my brain is sometimes is that one. I was feeling better. I was like, oh, I'm not in any pain at all. And I was standing and I said to Sylvia, I was like, maybe I should try and do a little jump.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, Jordan.

[Jordan James]

Why, Jordan. What? Why is my brain saying, not to.

[Simon Scott]

Be cricket but don't do that. Do you want to do a load?

[Jordan James]

And Sylvia's looked at me, went, why? I went, I don't know, I just want to see if I can do it. And she's like, you'll never do it again. No, no, you don't. And I was. And I sort of made that. That, that sort of.

[Simon Scott]

Oh.

[Jordan James]

And then I went, nah. And I didn't do it.

[Simon Scott]

Thank God for that.

[Jordan James]

I. Oh, Jesus. The, the neurodivergent baby brain doesn't, doesn't always do good. And yeah, words. So what. Why are we here?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, very good question. I am so glad that you've done that. It's led me onto the topic quite well. I was sort of just browsing the Internet, as one does earlier this week, and I came across this reel that was discussing object permanence. Now this is something that I've heard about before, but I've never heard it, you know, framed in the way that it was around sort of the neurodivergent experience. And one of the reasons as to why it hit home is so much of my life, I forget that people exist. And it's not like I forget that they exist. It's if you aren't in front of me, you don't exist. And that, and that's not like a nasty thing or like a self absorbed thing. It's a, oh, I put the cup down, I turn around, I move back, the cup has gone. That happens with people.

[Jordan James]

Is this why you have that giant life size poster of me above your bed?

[Simon Scott]

Yes, that's exactly why that's there.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So every day you wake up and.

[Simon Scott]

You'Re like, honestly, bro, if we didn't do this podcast and I didn't speak to you for two weeks, it could become two years by accident. And that's not like a. A nasty thing. That's a genuine.

[Jordan James]

My RSD just made me feel sick. But even though I know. I know exactly what you mean.

[Simon Scott]

You know what I mean? But that's what I mean is, oh.

[Jordan James]

You don't love me. Is it because my bag's broken and I'm not as sexy as I used to be?

[Simon Scott]

This is why I want to talk about it, because it's so hard to sort of explain. So let me just sort of break down the general concept before you start crying. So I mentioned I'm on tramadar. Yes. Welcome back. There's a piece of candy over here. So. So object permanence originates from developmental psychology, which is the p Gets stages of cognitive development. So I thought you might find this quite interesting. Refers to the understanding that objects and people continue to exist even when out of sight. It typically develops in infants around 8 to 12 months of age. It's not just about physical objects. It can extend to time, memory and emotional constancy. So this is remembering that relationships and responsibilities, persistent like that, like you listening here, that bill that we've not paid because I also need to do that after we finish recording. So object permanence in everyday function can help with memory and organization, such as remembering tasks, possessions that you have or food that's in the fridge that state runs out tomorrow. Support stable emotional regulation. Trusting that loved ones still care about you when they're not in front of you plays a role and executive function linking present actions to future outcomes. Now, does any of this ring a bell?

[Jordan James]

How is it. Is it like just now binging to neurodivergence? Because what the hell? Like that is neurodivergent.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, absolutely. And this is why when I read this and was looking at a couple of reels about this, I was like, people only just talking about this now. Because this sounds like my living existence.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I mean, from. From what you said, from my experience and my knowledge, I would say that it sounds. Which is neurodivergent in itself, trauma based. So I. It definitely sounds that it's like a trauma reaction, especially with people. It's. It's a trauma reaction simply probably because it's. It's like that we're out, we're so emotional that rather than having to deal with the emotions of missing somebody, you basically just do a little switch and it's like, oh, they're not there, so I don't care. And it's, that's just the easier way of doing it. Certainly. You know, I, I would say that that that's why it is for me when I'm like that when, if I go away on, on a trip, like a photography trip, and it's just me and Rickle work, I don't. Like, he calls his wife every day. Like they're, they're, they're phone. Sylvia doesn't call me and I don't call her. I might get a message like, oh, how's it going? And I'll be like, yeah, it's great. Love you. Bye. Other than that, we, we just don't communicate at all. It's. It's really, really strange. It's just, you know, essentially out of sight, out of mind. Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Because I speak to at least one of my parents on the phone every single day. Not genuinely. And like with Caris, I will text her most of the time when we're not together, like you were just saying, just as a check in. But in the evenings I will call her or she'll call me and like. Yeah, it seems so sort of obvious to me when you're reading it. I'm like, well, of course this is tied to neurodivergence or.

[Jordan James]

Traumatized. Neurotypical as well.

[Simon Scott]

Absolutely. Yeah. But one of the things that sort of like really rung the bell with me was this reel that I was watching was talking about how this woman was like, oh, I have loads of friends, but I don't have a social life. She went, and I kind of forget that people want to speak to me or spend time with me. And then as soon as I'm with them, it's like I get this huge rush of, oh my God, my friend's here. I love my friend. I love spending time with my friend. Let's. Let's do everything together. And then as soon as like you find your hyper focus in something else, it's like absolutely everything that was tied to that friend just kind of just goes and just disappears. And I, I have experienced this in, in many ways and I will. We'll discuss more so his own experiences after the break. But I just wanted to touch on this in how it's sort of people are sort of connecting it to neurodivergence. Many people online are describing challenges with object permanence, like issues. So they're not saying this is object permanence. It's, you know, related to a lot of what you were Saying, you know, it's. It ties in, but they're not sort of putting the name to the sort of experience. So it can consist of things like forgetting things exist once they're out of sight, like emails, food in the cupboard, bills that need paying, difficulties maintaining relationships or obligations without external reminders. If I don't get reminders, if it's not in my diary, it doesn't exist. And the main point of what you were saying off air is out of sight, out of mind. Things feel as if they don't exist. We're not visible or actively cued. And the way that they've linked it to neurodivergence is working. Memory differences, executive function challenging can cause clutter in your life because keeping items in sight to avoid forgetting them. Difficulties with maintaining routines if they're not fixed and somebody else is implementing them on you. Like, as soon as I stopped going to school, dude, I know I had no routine. It's like, I had to make it for myself. It didn't exist. So it's memory, attention, sensory processing, interaction. Emotional permanence can be hard, you know, showing someone that you care out, not out of the moment, you know, Like, I forget people's birthdays all the time. Like, two weeks later, I'm like, oh, if I message them now, I'm a dick.

[Jordan James]

I'm. I. Because I'm aware of, you know, the neurodivergent mind and how we are. I'm kind of like, I'm always on it, if you know what I mean. And if my birthday's coming up. I know. And I would never feel bad if every single one of my friends forgot.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Because I forget their birthdays if I don't put them in the calendar. So now, now I have it as like a repeated thing that comes up on my phone. So I always know now whose birthday is. And I will remind everybody that it's my birthday and it's not for attention. It's because I know that if they forget, they will feel guilty, they will feel bad because I know that they. They love me. You know, all my friends love me, and I love all my friends. And it's never a deliberate thing. So I try and remind them so. Because I don't want them to feel bad because I won't feel bad if they forget, but they'll feel bad. Oh, they'll feel guilty.

[Simon Scott]

I feel awful when I do stuff like that.

[Jordan James]

So. Yeah. Plus, I normally have a party. Yeah, I. I had a whole party organized this weekend. Like, it was a fancy dress 80s theme and like most like movies and TV shows and I was gonna, I was gonna go as Indiana Jones and Sylvia was gonna go as Winnie, you know, from Templar Doom.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that would have been really good. I could definitely see you two doing that.

[Jordan James]

She was gonna like perm her hair and stuff and we had this whole thing planned and it was really sweet because my dad used to always wear like an Indiana Jones style hat and I have his actual.

[Simon Scott]

That's such a title, isn't it? The Indiana Jones.

[Jordan James]

Oh, big time. Yeah. See I, and I have that hat in the loft. So I was going to wear my dad's hat and. Oh yeah. But I, I just, I don't know, I kind of just canceled it. I just don't really feel up to like having lots of people. So we're just going to keep it just family and have like a, just, just a, you know, basically just family over certain people that live in the house. And then my nephew and yeah, Sylvia's gonna make some pizza and because it's my birthday this weekend, which by the time people are listening to this, it would have been yesterday or no, Thursday, Wednesday the 17th. The 17th is Monday the 17th. And if anyone's listening and you'd like to buy me a present, you know.

[Simon Scott]

What, I knew you were going to do this.

[Jordan James]

You can go to my Pickfair store. So Jordan James Autistic Photography Pick Fair or just Jordan James Photography on Pickfair and you can buy one of my photographs. They're only ten pounds. I am very, very cheap.

[Simon Scott]

I mean test.

[Jordan James]

And, and that 10 pound will, will be my birthday present. And, and the great thing about that is that you will get a picture and I will get 10 pound.

[Simon Scott]

It's a fair exchange. It's a nice exchange of goods and services.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So if anyone's out there and they also, and also because I out on work for two weeks, I've taken a bit of a financial hit. So anybody that would like to buy my photography is pretty much the only way that I can make money at the moment because my work doesn't pay me sick pay, which is messed up a bit crap. And apparently statutory sick Pay is like £170 a week and that's not enough. So yeah, please buy my.

[Simon Scott]

These are all the things that you don't think about when you have a lifelong disability and things don't go how you want them to go.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So if you don't, that means you don't love me.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. So you'll forget about him. And don't forget about us. After this short break, we will be back. Don't go anywhere.

[Jordan James]

I've already forgotten.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, no. This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes, take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN Diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the weight. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here with a laid down Mr. Jordan James. And we did remember that you exist. We're still here, don't worry.

[Jordan James]

Yay.

[Simon Scott]

Yay, Yay.

[Jordan James]

It's my birthday. Buy my photography.

[Simon Scott]

Yes, don't forget. Right, let's all write it down once again.

[Jordan James]

Tramadol.

[Simon Scott]

Yes, it's. Drugs are bad.

[Jordan James]

Anyway, Drugs are not bad. Illegal drugs are bad. The Tramadol is fantastic. It's the only thing that is now.

[Simon Scott]

Actually making me feel okay, you poor thing. So object permanence, right? You know when you were talking about like trauma related sort of with this. And I know that we often share our experiences on this show, it's kind of the point. But I vividly remember being at university, right, and the degree that I was doing didn't quite have a union, but we had student reps and I was asked to be a student rep, which I was very proud of and quite pleased about and I was meant to meet one of my lecturers for a meeting and I completely forgot that said meeting even existed. And I didn't realize that my lecturer had driven an hour and a half into London to come to this meeting, wait for me for an hour and then go home. And I came into uni the next day and the dressing down that I got from my lecturer wasn't fair. I understand that they were upset, but telling them that if I didn't turn up to any of her lecturers, she would fail my degree and I would be dead to her was a bit much.

[Jordan James]

Whoa.

[Simon Scott]

Yes. So I was never late for a lecture ever again.

[Jordan James]

Can I just quickly ask, what exactly was your response to that? Because my response went, oh, see, I have the opposite. I'm like you. No, I just went straight. When. When anyone's aggressive to me, I tend to be aggressive. Oh, I used to tend to be aggressive straight back, but nowadays I'm better, thanks.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, no, no, I just. I just went very mute and I went to the toilet and I had a big cry.

[Jordan James]

Oh, bro.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, so. But that is such a good sort of example of, like, object permanence. I had another one as well where part of my degree, I had to go and watch a show and we were all writing about the show, had to do an essay that I was graded for about said show. And I'm sat at home having a lovely little time. I've just made tea and I'm about to sit down and watch a Liverpool game and my friend texts me and goes, how far away are you from the theater? Because the show starts in 10 minutes. So I then had to end up buying a ticket for the next night for a West End show that cost me £70 to sit at the back of my own with a notepad to then write this essay. And the amount of mental abuse I would give myself over these moments. Dude. Where I would just be like, why the hell can't you remember this? Why can't you remember where to be at what time without everybody holding your hand? Like, it feels so disabling. And this is one of the biggest triggers for my internalized ableism is just forgetting things completely. It's not even like I go, oh, yeah, that's up soon. It's a. Oh, oh, yeah. Oops. Totally forgot that that exists.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. Because it's easy for, you know, people who want to sort of talk about ADHD and then sort of simplify it. It's like, oh. It means you're easily distracted. It means you can't concentrate on things. And I mean that. That's part of it.

[Simon Scott]

Part of it.

[Jordan James]

But, like, on the grander scale, the thing that I is the most disabling is this exact thing, you know, this is what really affects our lives on a day to day basis. Because I think being easily distracted, not being able to concentrate, that will definitely affect you in like your work, you know, if you have like projects, depending on what your job is, obviously. But I, I think on, on a grand, you know, everyday life that that is the worst thing. Like you say, like forgetting birthdays, forgetting people, just forgetting dates, for, for just forgetting things all the time. And I remember listening to, to the Smosh Reads Reddit podcast.

[Simon Scott]

Great show by the way.

[Jordan James]

If you don't listen to it, I love it. I'm obsessed. And there was, there was a person on the Reddit saying, you know, am I the. Because this woman had forgotten to go to brunch with her friends.

[Simon Scott]

Been there.

[Jordan James]

And then like, you know, her friends called him like, you know, where, where are you? And she's like, oh my God, I'm so, so sorry. They, you know, she made an effort, rushed, and when she got there, her friends all got up and walked out without even saying anything.

[Simon Scott]

How traumatized.

[Jordan James]

And, and, and just left her. So she went, made they have to go all the way there. And they just got up and walked out as almost like, like in protest of her as a human or something. And then, and then she was like, you know, and then she was, she's, oh, okay then. And so she went home, looked on social media and saw that they'd gone to a different place and they'd carried on the brunch without her. And I was like, well, those aren't your friends.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, no.

[Jordan James]

And she was like, am I the. And I was like, well, no, no, no, you're not. They are. And apparently when, when, when her friends finally decided to talk to her, they said, oh, it's because that you do this all the time. And it's like, and at no point has anyone gone, well, that sounds like someone who has adhd.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, like, obviously you're just a bad person.

[Jordan James]

Obviously you're just a bad person. And it's, it's. So this is why I think, you know, discovering that you're neurodivergent and understanding how it negatively impacts your life in, in that way, it does answer so many questions. And it's not like, oh, it's an excuse, it's a reason. It's a, I mean some, some people are assholes and they will use being neurodivergent as an excuse. There are people like that. But in this case, like a genuine like, oh, I really wanted to go to that thing and I forgot. And it's not because she doesn't care about her friends, it's because out of sight, out of mind. And you know, it's easy for me to turn around and go, okay, well then you need to set lots of alarms. But if you don't realize you're neurodivergent also maybe you get told and you think, okay, I'm gonna set an alarm for that, but you're doing something else and by the time you finish doing that, you forget to set the alarm.

[Simon Scott]

Dude, the amount of times I find myself, I was just going, how did I get to doing. Oh, I was doing something. I do it all the time. It's why I have two screens in my computer. I have a fun side and a work side. The work side always has the work stuff on it because if I, when I used to have one screen, dude, I would click off of it and just like go and just forget I was at work. And I'd be on YouTube for an hour and I go, oh, I've got a deadline. And I used to self sabotage myself so much because of out of sight, out of mind. And it's not just like you were saying with, with work, but socially, it's socially sabotaging. I've had a group of friends for a very long time. There was a couple of people that I went to sixth form with and we're still very good friends. We don't see each other a lot because of geography and distance, but we are still good friends. And we had sort of somebody who came into the group later on in life through like university and, and boyfriends and girlfriends and things and they were very autonomy led and I think they're neurodivergent. But if you try and have that conversation with them, which I did once, oh, don't even waste your time. Even though they've got siblings that are autistic and all sorts. And basically, long story short, this person's birthday was a big party in Leeds and I forgot until the day of the party and the party was in leeds at like 6 o' clock and I found out about 4 o' clock and I was struggling with burnout at the time. I was very low on spoons and I decided, I made a decision not to go and I was so worried about how they would react. I never let them know. It's like rather than face the reaction I just went, I'm not even going to do anything about it and not get the reaction. And by not turning up to this party and being another body for this person to receive infinite amount of praise. I have not been invited to social gatherings with this group for two years now. I was not invited to a wedding.

[Jordan James]

Well, that's a bonus.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, honestly, I was relieved.

[Jordan James]

I was gonna say that sounds great. I don't wanna be invited to a feckin wedding.

[Simon Scott]

But that's what I mean is like I've had times where I've walked through the city of Manchester and walked past this group of friends having a meal not too far from where I used to live and things like that, and I ended up not actually speaking to my very close friends for nearly two years.

[Jordan James]

Oh, so quite similar to that Reddit thing then. Yeah, yeah. Group. Groups of friends are hard, genuinely.

[Simon Scott]

And everyone was like, oh Simon, such a dick, he never turns up for anything. And then as soon as I started advocating and being publicly open about neurodivergence, my two original friends from the group have really rekindled their friendship with me because they know that I'm not an asshole, I'm just disabled.

[Jordan James]

But wouldn't it have been nice to. Because like, you're not an. So like, in general, day to day, you're not just. So if, if, if that, if that behavior is what makes you an. The fact that you forget things, how does that make you an. That just makes you somebody who's very forgetful. Yeah, but it's like in their minds, it's like, oh, well, that means you just don't care about us. Or that means you're a selfish person or you just, you know, and, and it's like, wouldn't it be lovely if people's first thought wouldn't be a negative one. What a wonderful world would live in where. Where somebody does something that, that upsets you and instead of just going, oh, that means that person is blah, blah, blah, you know, terrible, whatever, just stop and go. I wonder what's going on with them.

[Simon Scott]

Right?

[Jordan James]

Like, like don't make it about you ask why, what's going on with them because you have no idea what's going on in people's lives. And I'll give you a quick example of a guy at my work, so cold, like, just really grumpy. Everybody didn't really like him.

[Simon Scott]

We've all got one at work, don't we?

[Jordan James]

Yeah. You know, he just didn't really open up to people, didn't really talk to people, you know, and I'm very jokey. I don't know if people know this about me. I don't really take a lot of things seriously. So I'm very, very jokey. Was a possibly, maybe occasionally slightly annoying person. Especially when I greet people like, hi, how are you doing? What's going on at like 6 o' clock in the morning? When they're just work with you at 6:00'?

[Simon Scott]

Clock? No, in the nicest way.

[Jordan James]

I know, I know it doesn't take.

[Simon Scott]

Three hours to fucking just feel alive, but.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I was always trying to be nice to this guy, but after a while, even I just like, you know, screw this guy. You know, he's a dick. But it was funny because after I got diagnosed, he actually came to me and he said, oh, I didn't realize that you're autistic as well. And I was like, oh, so he's got Alexithy. Well, obviously I didn't know about alexithymia then, but obviously I knew about struggling with communication and I knew about the general thing about autistic people. Even though I didn't quite match that social thing, maybe for me, I was super social. I just kept saying the wrong thing.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Socializing was never the problem. It was what came out of my mouth that was apparently.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I've gone off on a tangent about something that has nothing to do with the subject, but essentially it was. It's not judging a book by its cover. Don't just immediately assume that you know why somebody is doing something and that answer is because they're a dick. And there could be a multitude of reasons why somebody might get annoyed at you for no reason or no seemingly good reason. You just have no idea what's going on. I think it would just be nice if people were just a little bit more patient, kinder. What a lovely world would live in.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, what a lovely world. Yeah. And that's the difficulty that I had with this sort of social setting. It's, you know, when you get that, like, autistic alarm system that goes off when you're in front of a narcissist.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. I brought up by one.

[Simon Scott]

Yes. That. That feeling that, oh, this is dangerous, this isn't good. And you know what? I'm so relieved that I don't have to socialize with this person anymore, because I did it not through choice. It was. They were just in my friendship circle. And when they were in the circle, absolutely everything had to revolve around them. And when it didn't, it didn't exist. And I used to have a lot of difficulties with it. So now I'm absolutely relieved that I never have to see interact with this person ever again. But I did lose a lot of time with old friends over it as like I became sort of a casualty of my own object permanence, which is so frustrating. And it's not just that as well. It's like clutter. I don't function well in really messy spaces, but I never don't have mess like on, you know, the nice video window that I'm talking to you through Jordan looks quite nice, but we pan the camera to the left and it's a crime scene. There's just stuff on the floor. There's pictures that need putting up. There's a board that I put up that I was like, oh, I'll put things on there that are important and all the things that are important are on the floor in front of it. I just don't see it. And I will like have clothes on the floor and I'll just like step over them and around them. And then when I do pick them up and put them away, I'm like, oh, that was really easy. Why didn't I just do that straight away?

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it's. There's so much conflict going on in our brains at all times at all. No wonder. Also tired. And one of those major conflicts is, is that need for routine, that need for control, that need for a space in which you feel comfortable in and demand avoidance. The whole enemy, the enemy of me of like I, I really like my closet to be very, very neat and tidy. It's like I, it's like I am autistic about my clothes, but I'm ADHD about buying them. I just buy too many. But I, I organize them so I have all my jerseys in one bit. Then I have my jumpers, but they have to be. So I've got my Jordan jumpers and then I've got, you know, my, like, it's so similar to my, my super dry jumper. And, and I have everything in order, even color coded. I'm not even joking.

[Simon Scott]

You minor in years. My kids.

[Jordan James]

Oh, that's. I love you. That's awesome. That she gives me a tingle. And I, but then I have that thing, it's like, well, you know when, when the washing's done and we'll, we'll put it in a pile and that pile will just stay there for a long time. It'd be a pile on the floor next to my bed of new washing all done and it would just stay there. And every time I look at it, okay, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. And I swear, and I've said this before, it's like preparing for some fight or something. You know, I'm ready, you know, I'm going to train, I'm going to try, I'm going to build up to it. I'm going to build up to it. And yeah, it's just a matter of starting it and then I'm good. But sometimes, because Sylvia will complain about it a lot, she's like, I can just pick the clothes up and if I'm not in the mood to hang them up neatly, I pick them up and I will shove them on my shelf in the closet rather than hanging them up or putting them in the drawers. I have a. I have a shelf that goes just alone in this. The hangers. And. And normally it has my. My Jordan ones, my collection of Jordan ones, that they're all neatly put. I've got five pairs, Jordan one, six pairs of Jordan ones, and I had them all neatly on this shelf. But then I'll just get like this lump of clothes and I'll just shove it in and. And then I close the cupboard and then it's like. Then it's 10 million times more or less likely that I will ever hang them up. And it's even harder to get over the PDA because I. As long as it's neat and tidy, then it doesn't matter what you. What your cupboards are. And there was a. There was a really good example of this, of it was in the latest spongebob movie, it's called the Plankton Movie. And Plankton goes to his old college, I think it is, and he opens the cupboard and then everything pours out of the cupboard. It's just. There's just so much stuff. It's like the tardis. Like there's not enough room in that closet for that money. And it just pours out. It's so funny. And then I looked at that, I went, yeah, that's like every. Every cupboard in my house, you would just open a cupboard up. And it was quite funny because when the paramedics were here, they said, oh, where do you keep your trauma doll? And I said, oh, it's in the cutlery drawer. And he's like, why. Why is the Tramadol in the cutlery draw? And I said, because of adhd.

[Simon Scott]

I'll find it. Yeah. I mean, I've got a really nice wardrobe behind me in my office, right? And it's where I keep my favorite stuff. So it's all my golf clothes, it's my football kits, it's all this sort of stuff. And like, I will go into my pile of washing and I will push the pants out of the way, I'll push the socks out of the way, I'll not pair them. I'll take my favorite items out of the pile, I'll hang those up nicely and then I'll walk away and just leave the clothes on the bed. And I totally understand why that is frustrating for people. I totally, totally get it. But I, I want to make those clothes neat and tidy. I couldn't give a toss about my pants and my socks. And that's the cold, hard truth of it. Because I don't really care about those items. I'm not, you know, folding them nicely, hanging them, making sure there's no creases, like really straightening them out and putting them away really nicely, making sure all the hooks are facing the same way that the logos are from right to left. I have a system, but only if I want a system. And that's the sort of really difficult thing is it's not even a case of going, oh, I'm choosing not to have a system with this stuff. It's like, I don't see it, dude. You know when Wiley Coyote used to draw a fake tunnel on the cave and Roadrunner would run straight through it? That's my tism. And then when Wiley Coyote tries to run through it, that's my ad. That's the ADHD part. Like he just like things become 2D. It's like, it's like almost like a painted background. I'll put it down and I go to reach it, I'm like, oh, it's just a painting. It's, it's not actually there. It's gone now. And I get so upset with myself over this. I live in a three story house and the amount of times, dude, I will go downstairs for something and I'll come back upstairs, get in bed and go, I've not even brought it with me. And then I go back downstairs again, I'll get the thing and then I'll like, I'll go down with my phone because I won't put the lights on. I'll just have a torch on for some, some reason. And then I'll put my phone down, pick up the thing that I needed and go back upstairs. And sometimes I will do four laps of this house before I have everything that I need. And I get so annoyed with myself over it because I just feel Like, I'm like having deja vu constantly.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, you're preaching to the choir, my friend. Obviously, I am in my chair pretty much most of the day, and when it takes me a while to sort of get comfortable, you know, because it's like, you know, because of the pain, it takes me ages to get comfortable. And then I'll get comfortable and I'll be like, I've left the controllers on the other side of the room.

[Simon Scott]

I hate that feeling so much.

[Jordan James]

And some. Okay, here we go. Because I don't want to keep bothering people. And it's. At the moment I'm. If I wasn't able to get off, if it was too painful, I know that, you know, I'd call Sophie to come down and get them or whatever, whoever's here, but I'm just like, no, no, I. I can get off here. You know, it's only be a little bit painful, but I can do it. But it's so annoying. And you do. You just get so. And then I'll do that, and then I'll sit down, and then I've realized that. And I go to pick up the coffee. That was the reason. Reason I got up in the first place was to make myself a coffee. And I go to get the coffee, which I swear I. I put down next to me, and then I look over and it's on the breakfast bar. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, here we go. And I'm back up and I'm down and. And then I'm. And then I'll sit down and be like, now I need the toilet. I'm like, oh, my God, my life. But it is. It's adhd. ADHD is hard, dude. It's hard because your. Your brain is just doing somersaults on 17 different trampolines at the same time. So it's. It's balancing plates. That's what it's like. It's like you're balancing plates all the time. And it's like, as soon as you take your eye off one plate, the other plate starts to wobble. And then you've got to look at that plate, and then that one is, ah, it is so frustrating. So you think about, like, just making an English breakfast that I will, you know, stop cooking the sausages. And then I've put the oven on and I'm, you know, doing the mushrooms and chopping the mushrooms, and I'm doing the mushrooms, and all of a sudden, oh, no, I forgot that I was doing the bacon. And yeah, it's and as soon as I turn around, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go and get the butter out of the fridge. As soon as I turn around, I've forgotten what I was doing before that.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And I'm like, is this just, like, what?

[Simon Scott]

Like.

[Jordan James]

So the amount of times I will overcook things or I will burn things is just. There's countless.

[Simon Scott]

I had an experience when I was working in the bar last year, and this was when I wasn't able to get hold of the ADHD meds during the shortage. And I put food through the kitchen. They made it for me, put it on the side. I sat down and had my entire break and completely forgot to go and get the food. And my break finished. I walked past the kitchen, and they went, have you started your break yet? Like, oh, crap. And my food was cold, and I just left it. Like, the amount of times, dude, I've made myself a nice meal and got, like, a nice glass of Coke and put ice in it. And then half an hour later, I go, oh, my God. And my food's on the side. It's cold. The ice is all melted in my drink. And I'm just like, I don't want that now. And, yeah. Yeah. The methylphenidate has really helped me with so much of that because it keeps me on task and keeps me aware. But there have been so many times, dude, where I have just literally had things that I have forgotten. And the way that my mind turns on myself and just abuses itself because I forget simple things like that. I'm glad that I don't do it as much as I used to, but crikey, I used to get so upset with myself over some of this stuff.

[Jordan James]

Yes. Yeah. I think we're. We. We are so hard on ourselves, which is why it's even harder when other people are hard on us.

[Simon Scott]

Because I'm like, this is how we feel. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

This isn't deliberate. Like. Like, it's not deliberate. It's not like I. It's like, Sylvia will say, oh, you know, can you. Can you bring the. Washing it? And I'm like, well, that's outside. And I can't see that. So. And I'm like, yeah, I will do that. Then PDA kicks in. I'm like, okay, I'll do it later. You know, they procrastinate. Procrastinate, procrastinate. And. And. And then. And then it. It goes from PDA to. To adhd, where it's not the fact that. That I'm struggling With the, with the task. It's the fact that I completely forgot the task. And then this is why Sylvia's so good. Because then she'll message me like an hour or so later and she'll be like, have you done the washing yet, sweetheart? You know, that helps me. And I'm, and I'm like, oh, right, okay. And because she's nice about it, because, because she knows I probably haven't. It's. It's easier for me to be able to be like, oh, okay, you know, I'll go and do it because I, you know, because I'm. Because I'm not doing it for her. Because it's my washing as well. I'm doing it because I'm in the house and I can. But I just need reminding of it because it's not something that I will think about to do. Yeah, but, yeah, it's, it's always a struggle. But that is the wonderful thing about living, you know, in my family is that, that we all pretty much understand this about each other. And so we will have clashes a hundred percent. Because, you know, sometimes we, we kind of. We're so busy thinking about our own neurodivergence, we kind of forget about everyone else's.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah, I am guilty of this.

[Jordan James]

And, and so many times, you know, our neurodivergent behaviors will negatively impact others and, and their reaction when they get, you know, so you do get that back and forth of getting triggered by each other, others, Others, neurodivergence. But overall, it's like, there is a certain understanding. But I think what annoys me, especially with, with my son, is the fact that, you know, it'd be like, okay, can you, can you do this thing? And he'd be like, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. And I know he's got pda, and I know, you know, he's going to forget because he's adhd. And then he does forget. And then I turn around and go, well, this is why you need to take your methylphenidate. Because he, he won't take it unless he's working.

[Simon Scott]

And I'm like, I don't subscribe to that.

[Jordan James]

Like, just take it. Because it's not just about when you work in. It's about living the rest of your life. You're only at work for, you know, seven, eight hours a day. What about all the rest of the day? What about all your days?

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, you know, just as important, keep taking.

[Jordan James]

I mean, I'm not really doing much at all. I'm just sitting in this chair, you know, and doing. But I've taken it. So I remember to do my stretches, so I remember to move so I don't get so distracted with my game that I'm playing on my TV show that I'm watching and I make sure that I move because if I don't regularly move, it's never going to get one. It's going to take a lot longer to get better. So I need to look after myself. So I'm taking methylphenidate just so I remember to, to, to do, to do my, my physio.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. Oh, mate, I, I take it every single day. And yeah, something is so simple. It helps me in the gym. It helps me keep on my routine and my workout and remember my reps. It's, it's, it's so helpful in everyday life. And I think we'll take a break here, bro, because afterwards I want to talk about some of the things that we've done that actually have helped with this because I feel like I've got a few things I could share. So we'll be right back after this break. Don't forget we exist. Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast. Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection. Go to Bit ly Ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. We've been talking about object permanence today and, and just forgetting that things exist, whether they're people or things. And you know, we've talked about our experiences and you know, the ups and downs of it. But you touched on a great point, Jordan. And it's something that's really, really helped me. And I know it's not a simple solution, but it has been a game changer for me, which is being with the right person because my partner knows me very well, but when these things happen, she doesn't punish me. She kind of just goes, you need a help with that and I'm just gonna do what I can to help you. And that has been so healing for me to be able to, you know, have these moments where I forget something that is considered quite silly to forget. And rather than having a dressing down and being told that I need to stop being a man child and grow up, they've gone, oh, I see, you need help with that. Let me text you and remind you that the washing machine needs emptying. And that's been such a big game changer, but that hasn't happened without me being able to advocate for myself and communicate what I do and don't struggle with that has been such, like a big game changer for me because one of the things that, like, always used to frustrate the hell out of me was when I used to have an ex girlfriend that just be like, just have a diary. Just get a diary. I'll buy you a diary. Here's a diary. Here's a pen. Fill it out.

[Jordan James]

Oh, yes. No, no, don't, don't worry, ladies and gentlemen, there's always a simple solution to being neurodivergent.

[Simon Scott]

Yes, of course.

[Jordan James]

Just. Just stop being neurodivergent.

[Simon Scott]

Don't do that.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that, your bellends. How dare you be born with a differently wise brain. Yes, of course.

[Simon Scott]

Yes. So my, my darling will text me and she'll just go, washing, kissy face. I go, oh, yes, the washing machine needs emptying. And that is super, super, super helpful. Like, we were talking about not judging people. This is like, I wish there was more information about this. I wish it had an official name that relates to the neurodivergent experience of this feeling so that I can now talk about it. Like I talk about alexithymia or dyspraxia or. And it, you know, by giving it a name makes it real.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I mean, I, I say about dodging people, but it's like it's the human condition, you know, it's. It is hard to sort of put ourselves in other people's positions, especially if we're upset by their actions. So when, you know, When I say stuff like that, it's not like, oh, I'm, I'm so great because I do it all the time. Because that would be hypocritical. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice if we all did it? And I'm one of those people, wouldn't it be nice if I did it as well? So it's like, I, I will try and do it. And I think that's, that's, that's all you can do. You can, you can, you know, do your absolute best. And that's the thing is that I think that, you know, so many of us are just, just trying so hard, and it's demoralizing when you, when you don't get that space and that patience and, and the thoughtfulness of, of just, you know, being able to be yourself. How do you. I mean, I know we talked about, like, setting alarms and things like that if, if you were to give advice to, to the people listening who are struggling with this and apart from just, just taking methylphenidate, because the fact is there are a lot of autistic people that aren't diagnosed ADHD that will struggle in exactly the same way, because it doesn't. Because this is just part of being adhd. So you might not reach the criteria for adhd, or you might not have thought you had ADHD and, or you might have been turned away for whatever reason. You, you, you, you know, you don't think you're adhd, but that doesn't mean that this won't affect you because it's part of the same synaptic pruned brain. You know, it's just part of it. So this, this is, you know, part of our experience overall. So for the people out there, what, what would you say is like, the best thing to do to, to sort of get over that? Out of sight, out of mind. Not, not with people generally, but like, things like, oh, I've put that in the cupboard. So as long as it's in the cupboard, it doesn't matter anymore. And then you'll go to, you'll be like, oh, where are my batteries? And then you have to spend three hours looking in every cupboard because you don't remember what cupboard you, you put the batteries in. Right, now I've lost my, my Samsung headphones. Like the little pod ones. No. No idea. I absolutely know that they are somewhere in my house. I've searched everywhere, but, like, socks, they've just vanished. And it, I don't, I don't get it. Like, I don't understand what has happened to. To these. These Samsung parts. I don't. I don't understand it because I've never lost them before because I got them free when I got my tablet, but they're worth quite a lot of money.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And I'm like, I'm not going to buy another. It's not a great thing to lose. I can't afford to buy another pair. So I'm. I'm really gutted that I can't find these. And it's really annoying because I know that I haven't lost them, but I have no idea where I put them. And I know that sounds like lost them, but what I mean is that I haven't left the waiting somewhere. This. I physically put them in this house and I can't remember where.

[Simon Scott]

You know what? Honestly, and it's so simple. But this has really helped me. If I'm putting something somewhere, I will literally shout in the house, babe, I'm putting the thing in the thing, sugar. Okay? And I give more people the information. Like, I used to be quite sort of have my own system and not necessarily, like, secretive with it, but embarrassed by it. So I would keep it very personal and private. Now, if I'm putting something somewhere, I'll go, babe, I'm putting this in this. Got it. She'll go, yep. And then hopefully she won't forget either. But that sort of really helped me is announcing, I'm putting something somewhere. And Karis does this thing as well where she'll let hold something. And she goes, we put it back, not put it down. She'll literally hold on something and she'll be going, I'm putting it back. I'm not putting it down.

[Jordan James]

Oh, that's really good one.

[Simon Scott]

She says it out loud like she'll have something in the cupboard. And she goes, I'm putting it back. I'm not putting it down. And that's helped. I really like using that. And another thing that we've done as well is we have a shared diary. So whenever she puts anything in her diary, it instantly comes into mine. And that's really helped because we both have notifications for things. Like, she will text me and go, remember that you've got a meeting today. And I go, I do know that I have a meeting today, but you've really reminded me that I have a meeting today. Today. And I do the same thing with her. You know, she'll go, I'm getting my nails cut on. On nails done. I don't know what, what, what they do. But she's like, I'm having my nails done on Saturday at one o'.

[Jordan James]

Clock.

[Simon Scott]

Right, cool. It's in the diary. Saturday at one o'. Clock. And then on the Saturday morning we both get the notification at the same time on his phones. Because a lot of the issues that I've had in previous relationships is turning around and going, oh, what are we doing today? And previous ex partners are going, what do you mean you don't know what we're doing today? It's like, do you even care about me? I'm like, yes, of course I do. I'm just forgetting things. And that has really removed a lot of arguments. But dude, put it back, don't put it down. And now, like, I literally was saying to her the other day, I have like this little bath bag that I keep all my toiletries in that aren't in cupboards. Like my hair gel, my moisturizer. Because I have a habit of walking with things, Walking to a mirror, putting the thing down, turning around, it disappears. So I have like this little bag. And the other day we rearranged some furniture and Caris was like, well, I'll just put this away so it's not in the way now. And then she forgot the thing where I keep my things. So we ended up having this whole thing of moving around. And I said, declare you're putting it somewhere before you put it in. Then she went, right, your little bag. Everyone see the bag? Like, yeah, the bag goes here. Like, right, cool. And it's, it's simple and sometimes it feels silly, but works for me.

[Jordan James]

That sounds like a really, really good idea. And just a thought just popped into my head about this, actually, because this, this is, this is something that is just completely unique to me in our house. Whereas most things is like, at least one other person in my house is like, oh, yeah, I also do that. I will constantly. And it's not just in the house, it's just in general. I will constantly forget who I told something to.

[Simon Scott]

I hate doing this.

[Jordan James]

So I'll be like, oh, that film. I went and saw it the other week. It was such a good film. And then two days later I'll be like, oh, this film. I saw it the other way. Such a good film. And they go, yeah, you, you told me two days ago.

[Simon Scott]

Or even worse, they'll go, I know, I was there.

[Jordan James]

Oh, that actually did happen recently. I said to my friend, I was like, oh, dude, have you seen the new Superman movie? It's so Good. He went, yeah, I literally watched it with you.

[Simon Scott]

Or even worse, I hate doing the thing where somebody tells me a bit of information and then two days later, oh, my God, did you know this? And they go, yeah, I told you.

[Jordan James]

Yes. Okay, so maybe it's not just me, because actually there is some people that do that to me. They're like, oh, did you know this thing? And I'm like, yeah, because I was the one that told you. Sylvia does that a bit, but it's not so common. And it's like, oh, it's so crazy because recently I literally was. Was saying to Sylvia and. And Sophie, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to. To the physio on. On Thursday. And, you know, and I'm. I've. I'm really gonna, you know, look to. To sort of try and build this part of my muscles and stuff like this. And then an hour later, we're out for, like, you know, my daily stroll up the garden path and back. Yeah, I'm a legend. I made it all the way to the tree.

[Simon Scott]

Little victories, dude.

[Jordan James]

And on the way there, I said to Sophie, goes, oh, I'm doing so well, you know. Yeah, I've got this physio on Thursday. I'm really looking. She's like, yeah, you just. You just. I know because you just told me. I was like, oh, what the. Like, honestly, if you didn't know your adhd, you didn't know your neurodivergent. And I. And I say this with absolutely zero humor because this is what happened to my dad early on to Alzheimer's, like, if you didn't know, it would be really terrifying.

[Simon Scott]

Scares me, though. I forget stuff that I used to know so well now, even, like things that related to old special interests just sort of. The details disappear. And it upsets me that I've lost that sort of knowledge. And it comes and goes, but our memory is something. The loss of memory frightens me. Really, really frightens me. And there have been times, like what you're explaining where I feel like I repeat myself, like a broken record and have deja vu. I, at one point in my life was like, can you get Alzheimer's at 24? That's a genuine thing that I had for a week or two, a little panic of, oh, my God, I've turned into an old man at 24. 24. I'm forgetting everything because it comes and goes, my memory. I remember so much stuff that I don't think I'm gonna remember. And then the really important stuff Just. Just disappears.

[Jordan James]

What's the thing that you tend to lose? As in you forget where you put it? Because obviously I'm going, a wallet.

[Simon Scott]

I put my wallet down and I lose it. And you know what? My. My darling Mrs. Did a great thing for me. She bought me an item that's called a tile. And it's a little GPS that goes in your wallet, and you have one on your keys, and you have one on your phone. And if you lose one of the other, you can. If you have one. Like, if I have my phone, I can click the app and go find my wallet. And then it will start ringing. So I can go around the house and be like, hark, wallet, speak to me. And now it will tell me where it is. And it does the same with my keys. Like, if I lose my phone, which I do very often, I've had to get slightly different cases because all of our counters are quite light. And when I had a light phone case, I put it down and it just, like, blended. So I had to get a black one so it stands out, even if it's face down. And I will misplace my phone all the time. But if I can find one of my keys or my wallet, I've got a little keychain on it. I click, and my phone starts to ring.

[Jordan James]

I've got that on my. My Samsung Galaxy watch.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Because I've also got Samsung Galaxy phone. And there's a thing, literally, it says, find your phone.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. So it's like you, wallet in your keys. Yes.

[Jordan James]

Just. And the real panic is I press it and then I don't hear anything.

[Simon Scott]

And I'm like, worst. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. And. And 99.9 of the time, it's because I've left it in the. Oh, dude. I've done this thing leaving your keys in the door. Oh, you're coming. Something distracts you. You shut the door behind you. And then there was the postman. They came, they knocked on the door, because normally they just put the post through the letter box. They knocked on the door, and I was like, oh, it must be like a package or something. And they were just like, oh, I just wanted to let you know that your keys are in the door, you know, just in case someone stole with.

[Simon Scott]

Your car key on it in front of your car.

[Jordan James]

1. What a lovely person.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yes, Very kind.

[Jordan James]

You know.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, thank you for that.

[Jordan James]

I mean. I mean, the Amazon drivers don't even freaking knock the door. They just. They kind of throw the package.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, dude. I think Kobe delivers my parcel. He's three, pointing him from across the.

[Jordan James]

Street like a 1940s paper boy. It just lobs. Lobs. Parcels. Yeah. It's like, dude, just ring the bell. Even if you're gonna walk off. Even if you're gonna. You know, what's it when. When you press the bell and run off.

[Simon Scott]

I'll knock a door on.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah, that. Even if you're gonna do that, at least. At least then I'll know that some of my package is out there. But, yeah, just stuff like that. It's. It's. It's hard, isn't it? I just love the fact that, like, most of this is just. Oh, you do that too. Oh, my God. I can't believe you do that as well.

[Simon Scott]

I feel so much better about hearing that. I'm not alone with this, dude. I've had meltdowns before with my head in my hand going, I am insane. If this was the 50s, they would have lobotomized me. Like, I have had those meltdowns over not locking the door at night and not being able to find my wallet. Oh, it's in my car.

[Jordan James]

My car was unlocked all night. I woke up this morning, I looked out, and I know my car's unlocked because the ears, which is the wing mirrors, the ears are stuck out. The ears of my car. That's. That's what they are. They're stuck out. And when I lock it, the ears go in. So you streamline.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. Oh, I. I did it the other week. We went to my parents for two days, and I drove caris and I drove back, and she went, you've left your computer on for three days, and the window was wide open. I was just like, oops, insurance. That won't go well with home insurance.

[Jordan James]

This is why as I get older, like, I'm not. I. After my. My doggies go over the. The rainbow bridge, I'm never. I'm never having another pet. Because the older I get, the worse this gets. Even though I'm more prepared for it. I have things in place to help me. It doesn't. It's like you could set a million alarms, but it still doesn't make you not look like a tit when you turn around to the guy you watch Superman with and tell him how good the Superman movie is. That is the ultimate. I didn't even know you were sitting next to me.

[Simon Scott]

In your RSD goes, we'll never speak to each other again. It was nice knowing you. You on? Yeah. Bye.

[Jordan James]

It's. Yeah. So it definitely. It's definitely getting worse for me as I'm getting older. And. And for Sylvia, she's going through perimenopause.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yes, of course.

[Jordan James]

And it is. It's like ADHD on steroids.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

My mom had a time at the moment, it's. It's like I literally. I have to, have to. I think I just need to hold her hand everywhere we go because she is just so forgetful with everything and she's, she is that person that's just, where's my phone? Where's my phone? Where's my phone? Where's my phone? Panicking where my phone is. And now it's just like, it's. Every five minutes is where's my phone? So, yeah.

[Simon Scott]

There are these tools, like the tile system. I'm sure there are other ones. I got it off the Bezos store. There's lots of thing. Yeah, I know. But there's lots of things out there that can help with this. Like having a ring doorbell that goes, is your door locked? Thank you for Letting me know, Mr. Ring. Like some things as simple as that. Because these, even though these are like slight things, losing your keys when you're already late for a very important doctor's appointment or anything is disabling and quite destructive to your life. You know, it can have lasting consequences. Like imagine if I didn't lock the door properly, went away for a week and came back and all my stuff had been nicked. I wouldn't be able to reclaim it on insurance because I didn't lock the door. Like, there are lasting consequences to these little unfortunate accidents that come with object permanence. So, yeah, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. But a couple of tools I suggested that. I really hope that they help people because they certainly help me. You know, having a little gadget, just something as simple as saying, don't put it down, put it back. It's, it's, it's given me positives. It's helped me with this thing that I didn't know existed and had a name. But now I can't stop thinking about use.

[Jordan James]

My thing is use notes. The notepad on your phone. Yeah, it's an app that comes with every Galaxy phone. I don't know if it comes with Apple, whatever, but get a notepad app for your phone and just write down everything. Every. Like, honestly, mine is like War and Peace, but it's got all my, it's got my, my passwords in there, you know, for like everything that I need. And because, dude, forgetting passwords it's like, that's a daily thing. Like, honestly, that, that's a nightmare. I, I do feel like a pension up most of the time. Not just because of my back, but because of my brain.

[Simon Scott]

This goddamn password technology.

[Jordan James]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Back in my day, you didn't have any locks.

[Jordan James]

That's why I do know what I love? The invention of the, the, the fingerprint, the, the thumbprint.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, Biometrics is a game changer that has, that is.

[Jordan James]

Oh, that's. So I lose a fingerprint, honestly, because it's, it's like o Netflix password. But then you put Netflix on, it will come up with a QR code. You know, I, I scan the QR code with my phone and then it'll go to Netflix on my, on my phone, because Netflix is always on my phone. And, and I'll just thumbprint. And then it works on the telly.

[Simon Scott]

Like bank purchases. It's like, oh, I need to pay for something on my credit card. But I can't remember the PIN right now because I very rarely use it. But what I'm not going to forget is my thumbprint.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah. It's also, it makes me feel safer as well because it's like, unless, unless someone knocks me out using my thumb, then I think I'm good.

[Simon Scott]

Or even worse, you lose your thumb and your phone. What a nightmare.

[Jordan James]

Now I'm just scared.

[Simon Scott]

Well, I feel a lot better for sort of talking about this and normalizing it. I'm interested, as somebody who listens to this podcast, do you forget we exist? Do you come back to our episodes and go, oh, yeah, Simon and Jordan, there's 70 episodes I haven't caught up with? Or do you just sort of forget everyday stuff I'm interested to hear and any sort of suggestions or things that help you, we are all ears. Because this is a continuous battle for both Jordan and I. But I've really enjoyed this conversation, dude. It's so helpful, I'm sure, for listeners, but selfishly for me, they just sort of talk about this and go, oh, yeah, you do that too. It's just, it's so affirming. It really helps.

[Jordan James]

Who are you again?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, no. Well, okay, everybody. John's forgotten who I am. He may forget to turn up next week. Who knows? But as always, please be kind to yourself, Take care of yourself, be safe out there, because it is a scary little world. Love yourself. Bye bye, everybody.

[Jordan James]

We'll see you tomorrow. And the whole topic.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, don't forget there's a hot topic. I certainly do nightly Bye. Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparked something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversation and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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[Simon Scott]

Acast powers the world's best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Recommend.

[Jordan James]

I'm Eden Scher. And I'm Brock Charlelli.

[Simon Scott]

We played best friends on the Middle.

[Jordan James]

And became best friends in real life.

[Brooke Devard]

We're here to rewatch the Middle with all of you.

[Simon Scott]

Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews and what we think now, many years later.

[Jordan James]

There's a lot to dive into. So let's get to Middle.

[Simon Scott]

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