The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Object Permanence and Neurodivergent Life

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Date: September 17, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the concept of object permanence and its impact on neurodivergent individuals, particularly those with ADHD and autism. Jordan and Simon explore the struggles, misconceptions, and practical consequences of living with object permanence challenges, sharing raw personal stories and practical strategies. The discussion also highlights how lack of object permanence can affect relationships, organization, routine, and emotional well-being, advocating for greater understanding, self-compassion, and supportive environments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates & Banter (01:09–10:07)

• Jordan shares a harrowing story about a recent health scare involving extreme back pain, ambulance support, and the unexpectedly positive community support he received.
  • “I’ve never felt so not alone in my life. And it’s incredible, like, when social media is actually used for good.” (07:07)
• Lighthearted chatter showcases their friendship and the underlying compassionate tone of the podcast.

2. Defining Object Permanence & Its Neurodivergent Implications (10:07–15:05)

• Simon introduces the main topic, prompted by an online reel discussing object permanence from a neurodivergent perspective.
  • “So much of my life, I forget that people exist. And it’s not like I forget that they exist. It’s if you aren’t in front of me, you don’t exist.” (10:32)
• Object permanence explained through the Piaget model and expanded to include emotional and memory aspects.
  • “It’s not just about physical objects... It can extend to time, memory, and emotional constancy.” (11:35)

3. Object Permanence in Daily Neurodivergent Life (15:05–21:45)

• Both discuss how challenges with object permanence manifest:

  • Forgetting people exist unless directly interacting.
  • Struggles with remembering tasks, bills, birthdays, food in cupboards, responsibilities, and obligations.
  • Dependence on external reminders, visible cues, and routines imposed by others (“if it’s not in my diary, it doesn’t exist”). (16:26)
  • “Out of sight, out of mind. Things feel as if they don’t exist unless we’re actively cued.” (16:49)

• Emotional permanence issues:

  • Difficulty trusting others still care when not present.
  • Forgetting birthdays; alleviated by using reminders/calendars.

4. Object Permanence, Social Relationships & Trauma (21:45–36:56)

• Simon shares a university memory demonstrating how object permanence challenges affected his responsibilities and resulted in negative reactions from others:
  • “I completely forgot that said meeting even existed... my lecturer had driven an hour and a half into London to come to this meeting, wait for me for an hour and then go home. The dressing down that I got... wasn’t fair.” (24:13)
• Both reflect on how forgetting important social obligations (e.g., events, birthdays, commitments) can sabotage relationships and fuel internalized ableism.
  • “The amount of mental abuse I would give myself over these moments… why the hell can’t you remember this?” (26:59)

Notable Quote:

• Simon: “As soon as I started advocating and being publicly open about neurodivergence, my two original friends from the group have really rekindled their friendship with me because they know that I’m not an asshole, I’m just disabled.” (33:12)

• Discussion about negative assumptions people make about those with object permanence issues and the need for more understanding:

  • “Wouldn’t it be lovely if people’s first thought wouldn’t be a negative one? What a wonderful world we’d live in…” (34:31)

5. Chronic Forgetfulness in Practical Life (36:56–53:03)

• Clutter and Routine:
  • Difficulty keeping spaces tidy or remembering to complete everyday tasks.
  • “I never don’t have mess... I just don’t see it.” (37:30)
• Simon describes routines (multiple reminders or visible cues needed), and how executive dysfunction complicates even seemingly simple steps (choosing what to hang up in the closet, prioritizing “favorite” items).
• Both highlight internal conflict between a desire for order and the inability to maintain it due to neurodivergent wiring.

6. Practical Strategies & Tools (53:03–74:33)

What’s Helped:

• Alarms & Reminders: Both advocate for recurring reminders (phone/calendar) for events, birthdays, bills, and chores.
  • “Now I have it as like a repeated thing that comes up on my phone.” (18:12)
• Shared Calendars and Collaborative Organization: With partners or housemates for mutual reminders.
• Verbalization Technique: Announcing out loud where items are placed (“I’m putting it back, not putting it down”) to cement the action.
  • “That’s helped. I really like using that.” (61:53)
• Digital Tools: Using shared diaries, location trackers ("Tile" for keys and wallets), smart doorbells, password managers, and biometrics.
  • “If I have my phone, I can click the app and go find my wallet… now it will tell me where it is.” (68:12)
• Notepad Apps: Keeping important info, including passwords, in a phone notepad app.

7. Medication & Self-Compassion (53:03, 56:27)

• Methylphenidate: Both hosts express how ADHD medication helps maintain focus, routine, and emotional regulation in daily tasks, not just at work.
• Supportive Relationships: Both stress how patient, non-punitive support from loved ones (e.g., regular reminders, shared management of daily tasks) is essential and healing.
  • “When these things happen, she doesn’t punish me. She just goes, you need help with that and I’m just going to do what I can to help you.” (55:23)

8. Challenges in Advocacy & Acceptance (56:46–77:28)

• The need to expand public understanding—object permanence issues are rarely attributed to neurodivergence (“wish it had an official name”).
• Acknowledgement that advice like "just get a diary" is unhelpful without tailored strategies.
  • “There’s always a simple solution to being neurodivergent. Just stop being neurodivergent.” (56:34)
• Both reflect on age, comorbidities, and the reality that these challenges persist or change with time.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jordan:

  • “I’ve never felt so not alone in my life. It’s incredible, like, when social media is actually used for good.” (07:07)
  • “Easy for people to say ADHD means you’re easily distracted… but this is the most disabling part for me—forgetting birthdays, people, appointments.” (27:15)
  • “ADHD is hard, dude. It’s hard because your brain is just doing somersaults on seventeen different trampolines.” (45:31)

• Simon:

  • “So much of my life, I forget that people exist. …If you aren’t in front of me, you don’t exist. …That happens with people.” (10:32)
  • “As soon as I started advocating… my two original friends… really rekindled their friendship… because they know I’m not an asshole, I’m just disabled.” (33:12)
  • “Put it back, don’t put it down—that’s really helped me.” (61:53)
  • “I've had meltdowns with my head in my hand going ‘I am insane. If this was the 50s, they’d have lobotomized me.’” (70:39)

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:09–10:07 | Catch-up, health story, neurodivergent banter | | 10:07–15:05 | Introduction to object permanence & neurodivergence | | 15:05–21:45 | Forgetting responsibilities, emotional permanence | | 21:45–36:56 | Social dynamics, losing friends, trauma, ableism | | 36:56–53:03 | Home organization, conflict, humor about forgetfulness | | 53:03–56:27 | Strategies: reminders, advocacy, medication, support | | 56:27–74:33 | Tools, technology, more strategies, relationship tips | | 74:33–77:28 | Reflections, aging, memory fears, listener engagement prompt |

Advice & Practical Tips

• Use multiple, redundant reminders: Phones, written lists, and calendars.
• Announce actions out loud: Reinforces memory for placement of items.
• Leverage technology: Shared digital calendars, location trackers, password managers.
• Share systems with housemates/partners: Collaboration can reduce shame and increase success.
• Accept accommodations: Medication, external structure, and frequent reminders are necessary supports, not signs of failure.
• Practice self-compassion: Internalized ableism and “why can’t I just remember?” narratives are harmful; self-acceptance is key.
• Normalize the experience: Realizing you’re not alone can reduce shame and enable better solutions.

Tone & Atmosphere

The hosts maintain a warm, humorous, and validating tone. Discussions are interspersed with jokes, lived examples, and gentle ribbing, but always return to compassion for themselves and others. This fosters a sense of solidarity and relief for listeners who experience similar struggles.

Call to Listeners (76:31–77:28)

Simon: “I’m interested, as somebody who listens to this podcast—do you forget we exist? Do you come back to our episodes and go, oh yeah, Simon and Jordan, there’s seventy episodes I haven’t caught up with? Or do you just sort of forget everyday stuff? I’m interested to hear…and any suggestions or things that help you—we are all ears. Because this is a continuous battle for both Jordan and I. But I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, dude. It’s so helpful, I'm sure, for listeners, but selfishly for me just to sort of talk about this and go, oh, yeah, you do that too.” (76:31)

Final Takeaway

“Be kind to yourself… you’re not alone in this journey.” (77:26)

This summary encapsulates all essential discussion points, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear, authentic, and practical overview of the episode’s content and spirit.