Re-Run | Girls Are Autistic Too: Misdiagnosed By Misogyny

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: Re-Run | Girls Are Autistic Too: Misdiagnosed By Misogyny

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Guest: Ashley Bentley (Hypnotherapist, Coach, Breathwork Practitioner)
Date: March 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This re-released episode explores the unique challenges faced by autistic girls and women, particularly the high rates of misdiagnosis influenced by societal expectations and medical bias—a phenomenon the hosts coin as “misdiagnosed by misogyny.” Through candid conversation and lived experience, Jordan, Simon, and repeat guest Ashley Bentley dismantle stereotypes, dissect gendered masking, and explain why the “typical” autistic profile is so male-centric. The chat covers masking, special interests, emotional regulation, diagnostic barriers, and the importance of self-acceptance.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Intro & Autistic Camaraderie

Jovial banter about distractions, hyperfocus, and sandwich-based eating routines (03:45–08:46). The conversation transitions to Ashley’s recent engagement and a light-hearted discussion of rings—a metaphor for personal autonomy and self-understanding.

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2. How Autism Presents Differently in Girls & Women

a. The Myth of “Male” Autism

• The episode addresses longstanding medical and societal assumptions that autism is primarily a “male” neurotype, neglecting the diverse presentation in females.
• Simon: “We are here to try and discuss today... how autistic women present differently to men.” (12:49)

b. Social Presentation & Masking (13:32–18:33)

• Masking Defined: Women and girls are more likely to “mask” autistic traits—consciously or unconsciously camouflaging their differences to better fit in.
  • Jordan: “Autistic women are often more likely to mask or camouflage their autistic traits... This can lead to them appearing less socially impaired than autistic men. Ouch.” (14:15)
• People Pleasing & Fawning: Many autistic women become chronic “people pleasers” or exhibit the “fawn” trauma response, prioritizing smoothing social situations even at great personal cost.
  • Ashley: “Fawning is a nervous system response...It’s a protective mechanism…it’s not a choice.” (19:26)
• Empathy Stereotypes: The stereotype that autistic people lack empathy is refuted, especially for women.
  • Ashley: “I am the complete opposite of [expressionless]. I’m so empathetic…so incredibly expressive.” (15:22)

c. The Weight of Societal Expectations (21:06–24:23)

• Girls are reprimanded for behaviors excused in boys; women are expected to be “ladylike.”
  • Jordan: “Boys will be boys. But women will constantly hear, ‘Oh, women shouldn’t do that…That’s not very ladylike.’” (21:09)
• Misinterpretation of traits: Selective mutism or neutral expression often misread as being “snobby,” “moody,” or “resting bitch face.”
• Result: Many women hit adulthood with little sense of their own identity due to years of masking and people-pleasing.

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3. Special Interests & the Mimicry Paradox

(29:10 – 45:55)

• Gendered Expression of Special Interests:

  • Women often choose socially “acceptable” passions (e.g., celebrities, popular bands), facilitating masking/mimicry.
    • Ashley: “…it was socially acceptable because young girls like teen heartthrobs…” (30:03)
  • Men’s interests often more “niche,” less tied to social currency (e.g., Jordan’s obsession with evolution and video games).

• Mimicking to Belong: Autistic people (especially girls) often adopt interests or mannerisms to fit in, even if it means abandoning personal passions.

  • Jordan: “We want to be part of the herd so badly, we end up mimicking. So we copy other people to the point where we’re not that individual thinker.” (36:31)
  • Many revisit childhood interests in adulthood after unmasking: “You hit 30 and you’re autistic, and you allow yourself to have what you denied yourself…” (43:08)

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4. Repetitive Behaviors (Stims) & Suppression by Gender

(47:03–58:34)

• Visibility of Stimming:
  • Males may stim openly (e.g., hand-flapping, jumping); females often “internalize” stims or suppress them in public due to stricter social expectations.
    • Jordan: “I will flap, I will jump up and down in the middle of Tesco. No problem…Sylvia [my wife] stims at home…But she will not do it in public.”
    • Ashley (on discreet stims): “I pierce the middle of my palms with my nails. That’s an easy one that…nobody knows I’m doing.” (49:52)
• Negative Impact: Chronic suppression leads to emotional overload, which may manifest as shutdowns, delayed outbursts, or somatic symptoms.
• Loss of Self: Years of hiding behaviors contribute to adult women feeling disconnected from authentic joy and unsure about true personal interests—necessitating intentional self-compassion and rediscovery.

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5. Emotional Expression & Internalization

(62:54–74:39)

• Societal Messaging: Women penalized for visible emotion but expected to be nurturing and composed.
• Internalization vs Explosiveness:
  • Common pattern in autistic women: internalize distress due to socialization, resulting in anxiety, depression, and inexpressive (stoic) tears rather than “meltdowns.”
    • Jordan: “Instead of having a violent meltdown...she’s stoic-faced, and there’s just tears pouring down her face.” (69:37)
    • Simon: “If a guy does [express anger]...he’s a bit unhinged, but he’ll calm down. But if a woman does that, it’s ‘Oh, she’s mental’...or ‘She’s on her period.’” (71:38)
• Men & Emotional Regulation: Men often given social “permission” to explode or be loud, while women are judged more harshly.

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6. Misdiagnosis, Diagnostic Bias & Progress

(74:39–85:38)

• Diagnostic Bias:

  • Autism diagnosis criteria are based on male presentation due to Leo Kanner’s narrow original research.
  • Women are overlooked or misdiagnosed (anxiety, depression, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder) rather than autistic.
    • Ashley: “Once I found out about the connection between eating disorders and autism…I had an eating disorder when I was younger…It made so much sense.” (77:11)
  • People of color and non-male, non-white presentations also under-diagnosed.
  • Jordan: “That’s what needs to change, because if a guy is there...‘I think you might be autistic.’ A woman...‘It’s an eating disorder, it’s anxiety…’” (81:06)

• First-Hand Diagnostic Experiences:

  • Ashley shares difficulties getting NHS assessment as a non-crisis adult woman, resorting to private diagnosis.
    • “He said, ‘You’re not in a mental health crisis, so I can’t put you on the list’…I had to go private.” (85:59)
  • Encouraging note: Jordan describes how his son’s girlfriend, seeking a diagnosis, was taken seriously and referred— “for once, I have something good to say on this podcast about the diagnostic process.” (85:38)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Masking:
  “I have no idea who I am. I have spent my whole life masking and trying to please others that I actually have no idea who I am, what I want…”
  — Ashley Bentley (26:08)

• On Fawning:
  “Fawning is a nervous system response. It just happens. You’re not thinking, I’m going to fawn right now.” — Ashley Bentley (19:26)

• On Societal Double Standards:
  “Boys will be boys. But women will constantly hear, ‘Oh, women shouldn’t do that…’”
  — Jordan James (21:09)

• On Misdiagnosis:
  “Eating disorders, borderline personality disorders, mood disorders, anxiety, all seem to be so common in many women I speak to… and I go, ‘What’s borderline to you?’ and they go, ‘Well, I’m a bit obsessed with the color orange.’”
  — Simon Scott (77:54)

• On Autistic Camouflage and Interest Mimicry:
  “We want to be part of the herd so badly, we end up mimicking… to the point we’re not individual thinkers.”
  — Jordan James (36:31)

• On Suppressed Stims:
  “Suppressing these stims…will find its way out somewhere. Trying to keep that stim down, it comes out somewhere else and a new one will just manifest…”
  — Simon Scott (54:02)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:45–08:46: Neurodivergent day-in-the-life, distractions
• 12:49–15:22: Social presentation differences, masking & empathy
• 18:33–24:23: People-pleasing, fawning, societal expectations on women
• 29:10–45:55: Special interests, mimicry, fitting in and late discovery of self
• 47:03–58:34: Stimming, public suppression, shame, and “state vs. trait”
• 62:54–74:39: Emotional expression, internalization, gendered reactions to distress
• 74:39–85:38: Misdiagnosis, diagnostic accessibility, Ashley’s & others’ first-hand stories
• 85:59–89:11: Difficulties in accessing diagnosis as a woman
• 89:42–90:32: Wrap-up and encouragement

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Conclusion

Through honest storytelling, personal anecdotes, and laughter, this episode details the subtle—but heavy—burdens placed on autistic women and girls, from being taught to hide who they are to facing misdiagnosis in a system built for boys. Yet, it also offers hope: diagnosis pathways are (slowly) improving; self-compassion and community can help unmask who you truly are; and, above all, listeners are not alone.

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For further exploration:

• Diagnosis resources for autistic women
• Information on masking and the “fawn” trauma response
• Books recommended by Jordan on understanding diverse autistic experiences

“If you’re listening to this and you’re unsure—if you relate to us and get a little tingle—welcome. You’re one of us, and you’re very welcome here.” — Simon Scott (89:42)

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Transcript

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[Jordan James]

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[Ashley Bentley]

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[Jordan James]

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[Jordan James]

Okay, it's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.

[Ashley Bentley]

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[Jordan James]

So the knock knock was just you knocking?

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[Jordan James]

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[Ashley Bentley]

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[Jordan James]

Oh actually they will have to get up and open the door.

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[Jordan James]

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[Simon Scott]

Foreign. It's Simon here. Before we get into today's episode, this is just a quick note. This is actually a rerun from our archive. I was traveling this past week, so we're revisiting one of our previous conversations that we think is still really relevant and worth another listen. But we do have something new coming for you tomorrow. On Friday, we will be releasing a new episode of the Hot Topic where Jordan and I respond to the controversial article UTA why I no Longer Think Autism Is a Spectrum. We read through parts of the article and unpack some of the claims being made about rising autism diagnosis, late diagnosis and the idea that autism should be restricted to a narrower definition. It's a pretty passionate conversation about research, lived experience, and who actually gets to define what autism is. So make sure you check that out when it drops tomorrow. For now, though, here's today's episode.

[Jordan James]

Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

[Simon Scott]

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw, and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates, and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.

[Simon Scott]

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor, and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

Hello. Hello and welcome back. Welcome back, Scotty.

[Simon Scott]

We're back. Hello. Yes. It's another week. It's another Thursday and we're back again. I miss. I. I have, like, I do miss doing it. Even though, like, we do, like, multiple episodes a week now. There are times where, like, I have days where I go, it's not a podcast day today.

[Jordan James]

Oh, those. Those are the days. I'm like, I will definitely play Oblivion today, and I'll manage 10 minutes of it before I'm on my phone looking for something to buy for my son for his birthday or something like that. There's. There's so much in my brain that just so easily gets distracted. And Oblivion is such a chill game because if I'm playing Doom, it's like. But Oblivion is like, walk around and listen to this really soft kind of music and help this random person find their purse.

[Simon Scott]

I can't. I've talked about, like, playing the Witcher on this show many, many times, and 90 of the time in the Witcher, I'm just in the pub playing cards.

[Jordan James]

That's what I was doing in Red, the first Red Dead Redemption. I used to. I stayed up all night playing poker against the computer. Computer. Yeah. It was just like. And I was not winning anything. It's virtual. I'm not like gambling in real life. It's. It's Red Dead Redemption, so I'm trying to make money.

[Simon Scott]

It's just basically been like, Oblivion and other bits, but your shelves coming along. We were literally talking about how we hyper focus on things when we haven't got time. And five hours later you've got a beautiful looking shelf.

[Jordan James]

Sylvia. Sylvia has gone away this, this week with Sophie. And while the cat's away, this man child will buy toys. That is definitely the phrase as I remember it. And, and I am now rebranding it. And so yeah, I, I, I kind, I kind of went in the loft and just basically it was, it was like a toy shop up there, dude, where Sylvia has like very sneakily, she'll tell you, it's forces unknown, but we all know it was her. I was like, it was the loft gremlins. It was definitely Sylvia. She's, she just like randomly puts my stuff in the loft because I have so many toys. And then I go up there and, and my favorite thing that I found and I can't, I can't reach it to show you, but it was, it's a bricks head, Lego Balrog and Gandalf and it's mint in the box. I'm like, I don't even remember this.

[Simon Scott]

How's that managed to get past your filters? Like it's in the box. That's very rare for you.

[Jordan James]

A couple of years ago I had an event from the autistic experience and had like 40, 40 people turn up. Four of my followers turn up to the event and one of them, because it was at the event, was held round about my birthday and one of them bought it for me for a birthday present.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, nice.

[Jordan James]

And somehow that ends up in the loft. And then I'm like, sorry.

[Simon Scott]

He really enjoys this.

[Jordan James]

Now I've got it. I'm stuck, stoked. But to be honest, it's really cool because I, I got a lot of stuff that day. It was my birthday. So to find something like that two years later and be like, oh my God, like this is like a new present. So I went in the loft and essentially like I got toys for free. And now when Sylvia comes back, she'll be like, where, why, why, why is all this?

[Simon Scott]

I didn't buy it, I found it.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, but I also bought stuff as well. I bought a Pennywise balloon lamp to go with my Pennywise doll. I, I, this is why I need Sylvia. Because un, unsupervised I am, I am basically just Kevin McAllister from Home Alone.

[Simon Scott]

Just literally just thinking like, this week

[Jordan James]

I don't have to be afraid anymore. This week I have only eaten sandwiches. Oh, I haven't made a meal. I haven't made a meal. I've just eaten sandwiches either ones that I've bought in the shop or ones that I've made myself. Because it's to me, I'm like, that's just the easiest thing is just to make sandwiches.

[Simon Scott]

If you're listening to this, how many sandwiches have you had this week? Because yesterday I think I had. Yeah, I had a few.

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Yeah.

[Jordan James]

It's just, it's for me, it's my autistic go to. It's like sandwich. Because you could put anything in the sandwich. Like pizza. Like I could just put anything on a pizza.

[Simon Scott]

Double safe food. Put chicken nuggets in bread.

[Jordan James]

No, I had actually decent sandwiches. I, I can make a good sandwich.

[Simon Scott]

Don't dislike sandwich making skill.

[Jordan James]

Cheese, tomato, salad cream, open sandwich, slightly toasted bread and a bit of butter.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, gourmet.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. And a Twix.

[Simon Scott]

So Gordon Ramsay is going to be bursting through his door any minute going,

[Jordan James]

what the fuck is this? I'm going to open a shop, the autistic sandwich shop. It is like we have, it's like a free Twix.

[Simon Scott]

Thing is, though, by saying that you put tomatoes in there, already lost half of your potential audience.

[Jordan James]

Oh, crap. Yeah. No, tomato's optional. Salad cream can be replaced by other condiments.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, salad cream, man.

[Jordan James]

Something about we can do vegan cheese.

[Simon Scott]

Tickles my brain.

[Jordan James]

But anyway, what are we doing today?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, very good question. What are we doing today? Well, we are once again joined by the wonderful Ashley Bentley, hypnotherapist, coach and breath work practitioner from Integrative Coaching. Thank you so much for joining us again, Ashley.

[Ashley Bentley]

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a joy and a pleasure to be here with you both.

[Simon Scott]

The last episode that we had together, our Echolalia episode, is probably my favorite episode of this series.

[Jordan James]

So much fun.

[Ashley Bentley]

And I've done so many more ever since as well. And it's just. Yeah, yeah, it was so fun.

[Jordan James]

That's one of those ones that it was way more fun to do than to listen to as well. So I'm imagining lots of people listening to going, these people weird. And we're in it going, this is the most fun I've ever had. But before we kick off, before we start, we must acknowledge celebrate good times. Yoga. Got engaged.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, of course. Congratulations. Show us the rock. Show us the rock.

[Ashley Bentley]

Well, this is just a placeholder ring so far.

[Jordan James]

Placeholder. Cheap bastard. Ross.

[Ashley Bentley]

No, no, no.

[Jordan James]

Did you, did you just get a packet of crisps?

[Simon Scott]

Pull out a hula hoop, Pop Targos on the way home?

[Jordan James]

How about that.

[Ashley Bentley]

No, this is a very lovely Archibald Knox ring. That was.

[Jordan James]

I don't know what that is.

[Ashley Bentley]

It was his late mother's ring or.

[Jordan James]

Now I feel like a dick. I've got a ring up here. It's a one ring and it was forged in Mount Doom. And this will be the ring that I will.

[Simon Scott]

If it was a Temu on it, It'd be a 2R ring, but, yeah, this official.

[Jordan James]

This. This came from Hobbiton.

[Ashley Bentley]

No, it was.

[Simon Scott]

It was.

[Ashley Bentley]

Thank you very much. It was completely unplanned, the engagement, which is why there wasn't a ring. But do you know, it's quite. It's quite nice because that means I get to pick out the ring myself, which is quite nice.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

No, you are going totally over, mate. I do not understand this, because why you get in the ring that you're not gonna have as the wedding ring just because you.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, See, John, this is also why I haven't, like, proposed officially, because Karis is like, I have to decide the ring.

[Jordan James]

Nah.

[Simon Scott]

So it's not for me to sort of decide that one, I guess, is it? I'm not gonna wear it.

[Ashley Bentley]

I'm really.

[Jordan James]

If you spend more than 40 quid on a ring, I'm gonna be very annoyed.

[Simon Scott]

Damn. I'd like you to find me a ring that isn't 40 quid that, you know. Anyway. Don't. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Anyway, to be fair, this. This is my seventh wedding ring and it was. This one was the most expensive. It was £70.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan James]

And the reason I've had seven is because the other six were so cheap that they basically just. Just rusted and discolored and. Or gave me gang gangrene.

[Simon Scott]

So what's your thing with the Ashley? How come. So you the same with, like, the autonomy thing. You have to sort of pick it yourself.

[Ashley Bentley]

I. When it comes to jewelry, I like. It's. It's just. It's not a safe bet to try and I don't. I never know what I'm going to like. So to expect somebody else to know what I'm going to like, even when I don't know what I want, I know what I want when I see it. And I think it would be a lot of pressure.

[Jordan James]

May I suggest a one ring from boards from the Mount Doom.

[Simon Scott]

Many men have died to bring you in.

[Jordan James]

And when you put it on, and this is great for autistic people, you turn invisible.

[Simon Scott]

Except that one person that's just staring at you going, my ring. So perception sensitivity is not immune to the one ring, unfortunately. But this is, but this is also quite a good lead into our conversation today because aren't we all so different? So still processing the working title, but essentially we're here to try and discuss today, kind of fun in a loose way in how autistic women present differently to men. You know, possibly potentially figuratively insert word here. But that's sort of our conversation today. So George, you want to lead us off on our first couple of topics, seen as you are Mr. Would make a man.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So basically what I've put together is

[Simon Scott]

through

[Jordan James]

A. AI's version. Right. So Google's version from various sources of what is a generalized idea of how women present differently than men because women can be autistic as well. Who knew? And I've, I had to tweak it quite a bit because some of it was using dated language and some of it was dodgy and I wanted to add a few things as well. So essentially this, what I put together, it's. So I'll start with social presentation. So we're going to go through each one and then we're going to discuss each point with our resident female autistic. Autistic women are often more likely to mask or camouflage their autistic traits, meaning they may consciously or unconsciously hide or compensate for their differences in social situations to fit in better. This can lead to them appearing less socially impaired than autistic men. Ouch. Even though they may experience similar challenges internally. According to Psychology Today, autistic men may display more overt social difficulties and repetitive behaviors. This can also lead to women being people pleasers, becoming eager to not rock the boat. This can stem from a desire to avoid rejection or judgment rather than an inherent need to please others.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And discount social. The social presentation of autism.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah. So yeah, I definitely was a people pleaser. Still am. And you know, this is. You can be a people pleaser in a, in a healthy way, I've come to learn and realize. But you know, with a lifetime full of being undiagnosed autistic, you know, this has only been in the last six years for me knowing that I was autistic. Yeah, basically very, very shy, sensitive and quiet. So my social interactions, I was kind of a loner and I would try and sort of mask and fit in, but I found that people pleasing was a real easy go to, to enable me to fit in. And so. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, I think, quite. I wish this is what was so, I mean my, my view of autism being autistic was so outdated. And I know I've mentioned this before a number of times on the podcast, but it bears repeating, I think, because sometimes you don't know what you don't know. And I thought I knew, you know, the typical traits of being autistic, meaning, you know, sort of like expressionless face and not, you know, DSM 5 style. Yeah, yeah. Not, not showing empathy. And it's like, well, I am the complete opposite of that. I'm so empathetic almost to a fault sometimes and, and so, you know, incredibly expressive. So it just never even entered into my mind. And, and finding out the, the fact that this is, can be a core trait, especially for, for, for women, this deeply empathetic nature, it was, it was such, such an amazing moment in my own life of being able to, wow, I can accept myself, you know, this, this feeling. I can remember when I was growing up and getting into high school, so I was always very shy and sensitive and quiet. And then when I got into high school, we moved around a lot and I, I started at this one high school and I remember walking down the halls and I'm like, people looking at me and I'm like, I don't know, where do I look? How do people know where to look when you're walking down a hallway? And. And so I would kind of look the other way. And I found out later a lot of people thought it was a snob because, yeah, so all the. And because I was so quiet and I didn't want to, you know, I would, you know, dart my eyes a different way. People thought I was being snobby. So, yeah, this, the social presentation, I think, I think there are a lot of autistic women who can mask a bit better than I was able to mask. I would try do a lot of masking, but my social difficulties I think were pretty, pretty noticeable, but again, not noticeable in terms of being autistic.

[Simon Scott]

So I have a question, Ashley. I'm speaking from the autistic women in my life, specifically both my partner and my mum, Fawn. You know, a lot of the time you go, oh, what do you want to do? And the response I normally get is, well, what do you want to do? And I think that sort of sits in that people pleaser. But then at the same time, both my partner and my mum have been labeled as narcissists because they have like, not necessarily strong opinions, but they have their sort of like, belief systems, but then almost like counteract it with this fawning. So they're very quick to Sort of jump into a situation where they're going, oh, I agree with that. And this is why I agree with it. And they almost go over the top and kind of isolate themselves from it. Is that something that you would say you relate to as well?

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes. Oh, my God. And learning about. So this is. Fawning is a nervous system response as well. So it's happening below our conscious level. We're not thinking, I'm going to fawn right now. It just happens. Suddenly you're fawning. And even in the moment you're like, oh my God, why am I, why am I going so over the top? But it's just that, you know, the horses, the horse has left the stable. It's happening and finding out that, you know, we've got fight, flight, fight flight, freeze or fawn. So fawning happens. And it's really, really interesting when, you know, our nervous systems are taking in so much more. Us beautiful autistic people are taking in so much more of the world around us in any given moment. So our nervous system is already overloaded. And then when we get into a social situation and suddenly it's getting so overloaded. It's, it's a protective mechanism, this, this fawning. And it's happening again. Yeah. Below our conscious level of, of choosing. It's a, it's a, it's a reaction rather than a response. And so this is why working on calming our nervous system allows us to reduce the fawning. It still happens though. But, but, yeah, yeah, very much relate to that.

[Jordan James]

I think a lot of what we're going to talk about and, you know, disagree with me if you do. I think a lot of what we're about to discuss and what we've just discussed is, is more of a. Societal expectations that are put on women to behave a certain way.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes.

[Jordan James]

Like boys will be boys.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Is a phrase. Oh, yeah, right. Boys will be boys. But women will constantly hear, oh, women shouldn't do that.

[Simon Scott]

Smile.

[Jordan James]

That's not very ladylike. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's, that's not very becoming of a woman. Boys, grubby, dirty, smelly. Oh, they're just boys. Woman, dirty, smelly. Oh, you're disgusting. Where's your hygiene? Oh, that's gross. You should be setting a certain standard because the men around you expect it. It's shit. Right. So I never did that to my daughter. So I don't think that I, I don't think that she does these things because that wasn't that expectation in this house. She Might do some of these things because of expectations that society overall puts on her. We just, we didn't have that like a deliberate thing, but I think there's always, there's always something like when you watch TV show, when, when you listen to music. Like literally just yesterday I'm watching ESPN and I'm seeing. And I've seen this on Sky Sports and I've seen this on most sports thing, the sports are focused mostly towards men. An absolutely stunning, stunning, beautiful woman who is very knowledgeable, knows what she's talking about. She's not there just because she's pretty, but she's gorgeous. All the men around her, not so much. Not so much. And I'm like, where are the gorgeous men? If you want gorgeous people on telly, I can't stop that. I don't think it's right, but that's fine. But why is it okay for the four men around her to be mayor? And that's according to my wife Mare, but the one woman has to be gorgeous. Music, men can just sing. Women have to get half naked to be even remotely popular. Now, I know I'm going off on one, but this is because my daughter drills this into me. She's like, this isn't right. And I'm like, I agree.

[Ashley Bentley]

No, it's really good. Sorry, go ahead.

[Jordan James]

Well, I was about to say that that's why. So she's not really like this. But Sylvia, she's brought up in Eastern Europe, she's brought up in Poland. And it's women are women. Women cook, women clean, women look after babies, women. And, and it's literally like that when she was growing up in communist Poland. And it's very easy in, in our dynamic for her to, to go into that way and let me be the dominant man. But I need pushback. And I get to be. Because of the privilege of being a white CIS male, I like, I recognize that privilege immediately. So I get to be dominant without people being like, slap the handcuffs on him or punch him on the head or string him up. I get to be the loud person in the room because I'm a white guy. Simple as that. And I know that because of that. I don't take advantage of that. Like I said, this is unconscious. This is just my personality. Sylvie doesn't push back enough. And that's why I have so many toys. I'm just putting it out there, just making my excuses for all the toys that I have. That's. It's Sylvia's fault.

[Simon Scott]

So, yeah, I think you've Made an interesting point there, Jordan, because you wouldn't necessarily say what you've described as autistic traits. You just go there, like societal responses. Like something with my own partner. She has selective mutism. So when she goes into this sort of mute state, her face becomes very sort of neutral, and she will literally pick a spot and stare at the wall. And now I recognize that as selective mutism. 90% of people recognize that as resting bitch face.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes. Yes.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. That's not okay, is it?

[Simon Scott]

So a lot of people think my partner is really moody and hard to get to know and a bit offish, when really, she's just overstimulated. I mean, I'm sure you're nodding along, Ashlyn. Is that reflective in your own experience?

[Ashley Bentley]

Well, it was like the whole thing of everybody thought it was a snob because, you know, I wasn't making eye contact, and I was. I was very quiet and kept to myself. And really, I wanted so much to connect. I just didn't know how. So, yeah. Yeah, it is. And I. I want to go back to what you said, Jordan, about how. How you've raised Sophie and how amazing that is. I wish, you know, my family. I know my parents did the best they could with the awareness that they had. My dad, I'm convinced, undiagnosed autistic, his dad and his dad's dad as well. There was not a lot of cultivating your uniqueness in my household. It was very much, you've got to fit into this. Appearances or everything. And you've got to fit into your.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, the neighbors might be talking.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes.

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[Ashley Bentley]

And so, you know, that certainly didn't help. It really didn't help. It's like everything is so confusing. So you're just trying to. You're trying to figure things out, and you're trying to see, well, okay, what is. How am I supposed to be? And how can I be my unique self while I'm doing this? And you end up losing yourself. And so often, I mean, I experienced this, and I experienced this with a lot of clients. I have a lot of, you know, women at middle age who haven't been officially diagnosed, but they're realizing that they likely are, and. And they're realizing, gosh, I have no idea who I am. I have spent my whole life masking and trying to please others that I actually have no idea who I am, what I want. Yeah, that's a really scary moment. But it is also. But it's a. It's a turning point, and it's a Beautiful moment and it can feel very unsettling. But you know, it's, it's one step at a time figuring out who you are once, once the mask starts to come off.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. And a lot of that stems from, you know, your special interests and things that you get involved in, which is, I think is a good place for us to take a break. And when we come back, we'll look at the interests and activities and how they could potentially differ between autistic men and women.

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[Ashley Bentley]

Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was, that hologram trading card.

[Simon Scott]

One of the rarest, the last one

[Jordan James]

I needed for my set.

[Ashley Bentley]

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you

[Jordan James]

get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.

[Ashley Bentley]

Millions of finds, each with a story. Ebay, things people love.

[Simon Scott]

Back to the neurodivergent experience. I'm Simon Scott, sat here with Jordan James and resident in house therapist, hypnotherapist, pathway practitioner all round, amazing human being, Ashley Bentley. We've been talking about social presentation and you know one of the gifts of unmasking is learning who you truly are and your special interests and activities. Jordan had a little like conversation with a Google AI. And this is what it it's example is, is while both sexes can have intense, focused interests, autistic women may express them in ways that are more socially acceptable or relatable. To their peers. For example, they may have a passionate interest in a celebrity or a band that is also popular among their female friends, while autistic males might be more likely to have a specialized interest in a specific topic or object. What's your thoughts on that, Ashley?

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, well, yeah, the celebrity obsession one runs very deep. I had a number of those, starting with River Phoenix when I was 12, me and my best friend. So, yeah, so that was socially acceptable because young girls like teen heartthrobs. I mean, that's been going on for, and will continue to go on for ages and ages. But then that turned into slightly more heavy duty sort of. Once I got into my early 20s and I was quite isolated in my early 20s, I didn't really have any friends. So that's when I went really, really heavy into being obsessed with. With different celebrities. I was also obsessed with Pink Floyd when I was a teenager. So music, again, that. That can be quite a socially acceptable sort of obsession. But. But it also, I think especially once. Once I got into my 20s and I felt like. I felt like I was having to hide it and everything and, and then, then that leads to a lot of sort of shame and guilt and it's like, what am I doing? What. What is. What is this? So. Yeah, but. So it is interesting. So would the two of you. What sort of. I know, I know. Jordan, your special interest. Definitely the. A lot of different video games. Is the celebrity thing not really a big thing for. For men?

[Jordan James]

It depends on the man.

[Simon Scott]

It honestly depends. I think from my. I can only talk from my own perspective and experiences. My partner is obsessed with pop stars. You know, she loves Chapel Roan. She loves Jade from Little Mix specifically. Just Jade, not Little Mix as a whole. She loves Sabrina. Carpenter literally refers to Sabrina first name terms in our house. Like she lives next door. Whereas the celebrities that I like are associated with my special interest. They aren't necessarily. The special interest is like one of my special interests is golf. So Tiger Woods I have a really keen interest in. I really like the psychology of Arnold Palmer, but they're almost like subcultures of my special interest person. What about you, Jordan? What would you say that's such a

[Jordan James]

clever way of putting that, dude? Like, it's. The person isn't my special interest, but they're associated with my special interest. So they are. They are adjacent to my special interest. Yeah, that I. That rather than them being the. That's. Yeah, that's brilliant. I've never thought about it like that. And it's like Absolutely. Like, my special interest. Like, yeah, video games and movies and South Park. But my. My main special interest is evolution. And within evolution, one of my favorite people, and I know that I'm not unique to this. He's a very popular man, is David Attenborough. So for me, I'm like, I'm not obsessed with David Attenborough, but it's like, he is the person that I would most like to have a conversation with. Him and Richard Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens, maybe those. And Charles Darwin and Eddie Izzard. Just.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes.

[Jordan James]

Because, yes, that was one of my impressions. And my. And my surrogate fathers, Matt and Trey, the creators of South Park. But. But I'm not like, oh, I want to know what Matt and Trey are doing this week. I want to buy a magazine and see what they're wearing or, like, what have they said? Or if somebody sends me a video and go, guess what? Matt said. I'm like, cool. I don't think I've ever felt like that. Even with Michael Jordan. Even with Michael Jordan. I would love to meet Michael Jordan. Just. So, yeah, I've met Michael Jordan. I've got some questions to ask him. But I don't obsess over Michael Jordan. Like, what's Michael Jordan doing this week? Or what's Michael Jordan? I have no idea. So it's definitely like, what you said is like, I have a lot of respect or admiration for the people adjacent to my special interest simply because I want to talk to them about my special interest.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

It's like I have an audience, like,

[Simon Scott]

the sharing of information. Yeah. Because I have found, like, I like, my deepest special interest is music. My partner's is the same. So you were mentioning Pink Floyd. Right. Ashley is like, I could talk about the wall or I could talk about, like, the creation of, you know, just all of their albums. But whenever I sort of, like, discuss music with my partner, Caris, like, we will use Sabrina Carpenter as a. As an example. I'm interested in how the album is made, the songs, the lyrics, the sort of, like, imagery that it creates, and, like, the overall sort of, like, world, whereas she's interested in the creator of that world. So it would almost, like, be. If I was really interested in Lord of the Rings, I would imagine, just knowing my partner, just talking from this perspective, that she would potentially have more of an interest in Tolkien than she would in the world of Lord of the Rings.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, possibly.

[Jordan James]

And.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah. And I don't know if that's because women tend to really emotionally connect very Deeply with one another and an interpersonal relationship. So maybe it makes sense that we're. We're diving deep into the actual people involved in our special interests rather than just the special interests. And I mean, I suppose, yes, if. If you're looking at music as one thing, I mean, again, it was so like Pink Floyd as a perfect example. I just like anything. So not just the. The band members, but anything involved with Pink Floyd, like even some of the band members had some solo albums that, you know. And this was. This was a long time ago, before the. You know, before the Internet or anything like that and you going into record shops and I would buy all these albums, even though a lot of them were unlistenable, I would still listen to them. Anything that had the slightest connection to them, I had to have and I had to know about it and I had to bring it into my world. Yeah, yeah, it's. It is. It is very interesting, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

It's almost paradoxical, I think, with autistic women because. And I think this. This is a lot of men as well, that we are individual thinkers. We're bottleneck thinkers. You know, we are. Count all the trees before we'll call it a wood. Like we. That's how we think. But at the same time, we. We. We want to be part of the herd so badly, we end up mimicking. So we copy other people to the point where we're not. That we're not individual thinkers. And I just. I think that that's such an interesting thing. It's like, I wonder how many of these women wouldn't be so obsessed with. With celebrities or a person or a band or something like that if they hadn't seen all the other girls around them do the same. And they just doing it because they want to fit in. And I. And I speak about this because it happened to me that I. I loved basketball when I was a kid. It was my world. I had Shaq written in the back of my head and was sent home from school. I love. It was shaved into the back of my head.

[Simon Scott]

No, I'm just a much true story.

[Jordan James]

I loved basketball so much when I was a kid, but I got bullied so badly, I had to leave the school that I was at. And when I went to a new school, I was so scared of getting bullied again. And everyone was like, football, football, football, football, football, football, football. And I was like, I just. I better say football as well, I guess. Football. Me too. Football. And I, I had the fleeting interest in football because you know, I'd watch international games and. And, like, you know, we're a Chelsea family. I was born near Stamford Bridge. It was. Chelsea was in my family. But I'm basketball. I was basketball till I die. The only blue that I was wearing was the blue of Orlando Magic. I loved it. But everyone was like, football, football, football. And I was like, yeah, football, football, football, and that. And football ended up becoming my obsession. I ended up getting a Chelsea tattoo, which I've covered up.

[Simon Scott]

Don't you. It's weird.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. But I can pinpoint the exact moment with a group of guys, and they were like, oh, so what are you into? And I so badly wanted to say basketball, but I was so scared. They were like, oh, this stupid American sport. No. And. And I was like, oh, yeah, football, mate. Yeah. I mean, Chelsea. And I know my accent changed as well. I was like, hello, lads. And they were like, oh, football in it. Yeah. Like, I. Because I changed my accent depending on who I'm around as well, because we're such mimics, but we're. We're so individual, but we're so herd men. Got the herd mentality. Just so we can fit in, just so we're not left out. Because that's my biggest fear when I was a kid was being left out that you. It. It's. It's such a split. I literally felt like two face. I was split personality down the middle. And it wasn't just a. It wasn't a mask for me. It was half a mask and then half. Because everyone could see the real me, but I was trying to hide the real me. And, oh, it was just so tiring. And it's like. Do you agree with that, Ashley? Like. Like, from. From your perspective?

[Ashley Bentley]

Well, funnily enough, going back to Pink Floyd, I will freely admit, when I first started listening to Pink Floyd, I think I was, like, 14. My brother had the Wall and Dark side of the Moon, and I was at this point where I was like, I am so desperate to be cool. I want to be cool. I just really, really want to be cool. All right, what are the cool kids listening to? Pink Floyd. Okay. Right, let's do this.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I nailed it, is what you're saying.

[Ashley Bentley]

The first time I listened to. To them, you know, it wasn't like, oh, this is. It took a while. And actually, what it was really. It was what ended up happening very similar to. To your football. I. It ended up. I. I listened. I started listening to the lyrics, and, you know, they're very sort of, you know, It's. It's Roger Waters mainly very upset about his dad being killed in the war when he was a baby, which I. It's totally can't relate to, but I could relate to this. This angst, this. This deep sadness that he had and this. This confusion and this anger. And it was like, yes, I can. Somebody else out there knows how I'm feeling. It's a completely different reason why. But suddenly this thing that I was trying to just be cool. Yeah, I want to be into Pink Floyd. Suddenly it's like, holy crap, this is everything. And then I. Then the obsession became really, really deep, so.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly that. I mean, I've got so many Chelsea shirts. I've been to. I've been Chelsea parades and, you know, and I am. I am a Chelsea fan. My son's Chelsea fan. But I just. Now that I. Nowadays, I got back into basketball, I stopped masking, and I forgot. I forgot all about the reasons I got into football in the first place. And I just went. This doesn't really interest me anymore. It's not like, oh, I hate football. I don't. I just. I'm kind of indifferent about it now because I love basketball. I'm back to who I really was. I dropped the mask. But there's nothing wrong with. With, like, if I carried on, like, in football, it's not like, oh, that's a bad thing. Not a bad thing to carry on like, in football. It's just. That's my personal journey, is the fact that as soon as I dropped the mask, I was like, that's so interesting because actually, soccer.

[Ashley Bentley]

I don't listen to Pink Floyd anymore. They will always have a very special place in my heart, but I never listen to them.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, see, I was exactly. I was exactly the same. Ashley is like, I have always been a nu metal, punk rock, emo kid. And When I was 18, I started dating a girl who was an indie girl. And I have Arctic Monkeys tattoos now. I don't listen to them anymore. And it's. Yeah, it's. It's kind of. I still really appreciate the lyrics, but I have gone full circle. I'm now listening to what I was listening to when I was 14, 15, 16, 17. And I. I see so much rhetoric online of, like, you hit 30 and you're autistic, and you allow yourself to have what you denied yourself.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

In your early 20s. And.

[Jordan James]

Which is why I've got all the toys.

[Simon Scott]

But one of the things that's, like, I find so interesting is, like, when I first went to university. I listened to Pink Floyd and didn't get it. And then as life sort of developed, I mean, I listened. I'm 31 in a month, and listening to the song Time hits you so much more differently with life. It's like. One of the things that I like about music so much is, like, I have never listened to Bruce Springsteen before, really. I put the Nebraska album on the other day for the first time, and it spoke to me.

[Jordan James]

That is a great artist.

[Simon Scott]

It's 40 years old, that album. How can it sort of relate to me now, even talking about, like, music? My partner literally said to me the other day, she was like, I fear that my personality is just an amalgamation of others. And that's sort of like. The mask thing for me is it's this sort of, like, chameleon state, because I can see it. There is nothing more stressful, I think, for myself and for my partner. We both associate. This is the idea of having a birthday party and all of our friends are there because you've. Trying to be all the different people at once, and it's exhausting. And I really sort of see it with my partner, specifically, just because of light. And we'll get on to sort of, like, the repetitive behaviors in a moment. But I can see her really trying to sort of create a. A connection with people that are around her, whether it's like, men or women. It's like she really likes Star wars and people will talk about Marvel, and she only really likes one character from Marvel, which is Scarlet Witch. But as soon as somebody talks about it, it's like she's allowed herself in the conversation. Not necessarily that people let her in, but she almost goes, oh, I can speak with authority in this. I'm not going to embarrass myself. And the mask comes down a bit. But I do feel like a lot of the autistic women in my life are in a chameleon state. They just seem to sort of navigate and flow. And then when they especially like my mum and my partner Caris, when they're on their own, they almost have, like, a hard reset and have to really think about what makes them happy again. It doesn't come to them naturally. They have to really think about it and commit to it and go, oh, this does bring me joy and I'm gonna do it. Whereas I find I hide what brings me joy from people and just kind of float and ghost. Whereas it's like, yeah, it's like I put. I. I take things away to socialize. Whereas my partner or the female people in my life put things on to socialize. Does that make sense?

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, there's a, there's a great saying is it state or trait? And mean. And that can be used in a lot of different, different ways but it, I think it can relate to that. You know, if you're, is this something that actually is. So the trait thing would be is this something that is actually me or am I in a state where I feel like I need to embody whatever this is? So is it state or trait? And, and, and sometimes it can feel very confusing. Is, is this, is this me, this authentic me in this moment? Or am, you know, am I, am I masking what it goes back to this whole who, who, what do I actually want, what do I actually enjoy? It can be very confusing sometimes. But I think this, this, this is where the ultimate sort of self compassion comes in and that really, really helps to sort of bring, bring the overwhelm down and then I think we can, we can look at ourselves with a much more non judgmental lens. But it can be difficult.

[Simon Scott]

Absolutely. Before we go to another break, Jordan, repetitive behaviors. Do you want to read the line that Google spat out? And we'll discuss this before taking a little bit little break.

[Jordan James]

So repetitive behaviors, autistic males makes a bit more visible repetitive behaviors like hand flapping or toe walking. Whereas autistic females may internalize these behaviors more due to the high pressure women and girls are put under to behave a certain ladylike way. I added that bit because the Google thing was insulting. So I was like, I will change that because it's a lot of insulting language out there. But essentially when, when it spat that out I was like I, I don't, I don't know if I can absolutely understand and see that that is a female versus male sort of representation because obviously, let me be clear. I think that it's, it's, it's not that we are different different, we're all autistic. It's just when let's, let's say that, that myself and, and Sylvia, my wife, we have exactly the same traits like pound for pound, it's never going to happen. That's literally impossible. But let's say we do pound for pound exactly the same traits, behaviors, whatever you want to call them, we will absolutely present them differently based on social expectations like 100%. And I know this because of the ones that we do have very much in common and that is stimming. Stimming is a huge one. I will, I Will flap. I will jump up and down in the middle of Tesco. Like, no problem. I don't care. Right, Not a problem. I'll spin around in place in Tesco, the little dance. Somebody thought I was drunk once and I was like, I'm working on it. That's why I'm in Tesco. So where is the alcohol, my friend? So if you see me now, wait till you see me after a couple of shandies. I'm a raver. Oh, but, yeah, so it's. But Sylvia, she stims at home. She just. Does she. And I'm like, you're stimming. She's like, that's not stimming. I'm like, it's just like you're sitting there, like, tapping your body all over. You're stimming. You're stimming. But she will not do it in public. She just won't. And it's. It's sad. It's sad. Like she just won't. She won't want to feel out of place. So, yeah, Ashley, is, Is that, Is that. Can you relate?

[Ashley Bentley]

I definitely can. And I mean a lot of my, sort of. So my earliest stem, which I still do, is I sort of. I pierce the middle of my palms with my, with my nails. And that's an easy one that I can do that. Nobody knows that I'm doing it. I can do it out in public. And yes, there is this expectation you don't want to. I remember, gosh, when I was. When I was in sort of my mid to late teens, I had some, some tics sort of. Come. Come on. I don't know if they're tics, I think, or maybe a bit of stimming, but sort of like a hard blinking and also wanting to feel like cold air on the top of my gum. So I would, I would walk around doing that and I would. I caught myself in the mirror doing it once. I thought I was doing it. I thought you couldn't see me, see me doing it. And then I caught myself in the mirror doing it. I was like, oh, my God, that looks ridiculous. But yet they were already very hardwired and the hard blinking thing, so they really. I was in a very difficult time in sort of my teens and early twenties. So as much as I wanted them to go away in public, it just wasn't happening. And I worked very hard to reduce the hard blinking and the, the, the, the air bit and some other bits. But of course, now. And. And I think it's one of those things where it can be quite distracting for another person. So it's like there's no shame in these hard blinking and things like that. And it's not so much an embarrassment thing. But I'm kind of glad it could be off putting if I'm speaking to somebody and doing these things without them knowing what's happening. So I'm kind of glad that I have sort of been able to reduce those and just sort of keep it to this. But yeah, there is a lot of expectations of women to act a certain way. Yeah. And it definitely affects our ability to do these stimming repetitive behaviors that we want to do.

[Simon Scott]

Do you think suppressing these stims, Ashley creates almost like an over expression. Not like. Not to say that that's a negatively, a negative thing. But I've noticed that my partner doesn't stim in public. Whereas I do is like I'll tap if music's on in the store, I'll have a little, a little boogie in a jig. I'm not afraid to sort of do that. But then I'm quite repressive with my echolalia. Whereas I will notice Caris will not steam in public at all. And then as soon as she comes through the door, echolalia kicks in. She starts to tap. She's going just like, sort of like. Like singing along to a soundtrack only she can hear.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And she plays with her hair a lot. It's like that's sort of like the only one that I kind of see come out is that she'll do like a self soothe a little bit, but it's kind of minimal. But when she's at home, you know, she'll put it on her top lip and like play with it and like move her face around and there's like a. A lot more expression in public. And you know, I think a lot of that from. From my perspective was potentially around shame of. We've been told from such a young age, don't do that. So I vividly remember I went through a period of blinking and like heavy blinking, like big blinking. Almost like trying to like get this feeling of my eyelids almost like rolling on themselves.

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

That was just sort of the sensation that I was going for. And I vividly remember going on a trip to London and my mum going, don't do that. The lady opposite will be made uncomfortable. Something so little. Like it's not a conscious decision that my mum made to go, don't do that. It's really weird. You're creeping people out.

[Jordan James]

But as A parent. I. I can say that's not your mum being mean or anything.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. But now I associate doing that with being weird and creeping people out. So then I try to really work on that. But then trying to keep that steam down here, it comes out somewhere else and a new one will just manifest,

[Jordan James]

like trying to block a hose pipe. And then another leak pops out.

[Simon Scott]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Jordan James]

10 leaks.

[Simon Scott]

So the cowboy that's been shot 100 times, he drinks the milk and it. Yeah, that's kind of how it feels. It's going to come out somewhere.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes, yes. And that will be the case with anything that we're trying to suppress in our life. You know, it will find its way out somehow. So it is. It's a real difficult one. I remember when I first started to do the hard blinking. It's so funny, the memories that really stick into your mind. I remember being in high school and there was another guy in class and we were all sort of sitting around talking and I noticed him do the hard blinking. Now, I don't think I'd ever seen anybody else do it. I thought it was unique to me. And suddenly I saw him do it, but immediately I thought, I know that he's nervous. I can tell that he is uncomfortable. He's giving his game away. So when I do this, I'm giving the game away. And people might know what's really going on inside. And suddenly it's like, this is. We can't let people know what's going on. Side. Oh, no, no, no. These really. It's really, really interesting how these, These memories and these, the shame and the. Just sort of. No, you've got to. You've got. Can't make anybody uncomfortable. You can't show what's really going on inside all of these messages that we, that we get. And again, you know, our, our parents are trying so hard to. They want so much for us to have an amazing life and they think they're, you know, the, the, the best intentions. A lot of the times for these sort of things, like with your mom on, on the train there. But it does lead to these toxic feelings of I can't show what's really going on inside and if I do, then there's a lot of shame attached to that. And. Yeah, undoing all of that as we get older is. It's a. It's a process. There's so many layers to, to really removing the mask.

[Simon Scott]

Absolutely.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Just.

[Jordan James]

Just quickly go for a break. But just quickly. Do you think that. That you will ever be completely Unmasked, like, and just be able to, like, we got in the Lake District in September where we'll meet in. And I'm gonna set a little homework that when we go to Keswick, I want you and I to just, like, dance up the street. Stim away.

[Ashley Bentley]

Let's do it right.

[Jordan James]

We're gonna. We're gonna. And we might even record it and be like, stim away.

[Ashley Bentley]

Well, one of my favorite things to do, because I'm surrounded by farmland, there's a lane in front of my house that just only goes to the farmer'. There's never anybody there. And my favorite thing to do is to go for a walk and just let my ridiculous freak flag fly.

[Jordan James]

Every now and again, I do a little turn just randomly. I'm just like. Like a little Jackson. Michael Jackson, just randomly. And sometimes I've got the dog on the lead and I. I get myself caught up and the dog's lead. I'm like, oh, crap.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

See, I have, like, a little, like, arm swing. Like, I'm listening to, like, Curtis Mayfield on the Soul Train. I just, like, sort of have like, a little disco boogie arm to myself. But it's. It's so weird, isn't it? I was as. As you were saying that, Ashley. It was just making me think of, like, when we are unmasked over undiagnosed, or we're being raised by undiagnosed parents and undiagnosed kids, the only person that is allowed to be uncomfortable is you.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes. Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Have you just tried suffering? That's one of the taglines from the Autistic culture podcast. Have you just tried suffering? And that's kind of what it reminds me of, is don't make all of these people uncomfortable. You just be uncomfortable.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes, yes, yes. Abandon yourself.

[Jordan James]

Screw everyone else.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Advertiser]

For.

[Ashley Bentley]

For the sake of others. Yes.

[Jordan James]

In general.

[Simon Scott]

And a great time to take a break. When we come back, we will be discussing, it's quite important, the diagnostic bias, and also how we emotionally express ourselves. But don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Advertiser]

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[Simon Scott]

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast Ashley Bentley of Integrated Coaching, Breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and Connection go to Bit lynch forward/ashley nde to book a free consultation or learn more.

[Jordan James]

And we're back. Yeah. Welcome back to the Neurodiversion Experience podcast. I am Jordan James and this is why I don't do this often. Oh my God, I'm tired.

[Simon Scott]

Like, this is like spoon burning, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it's. And, and, and we, we, we will leave this in because it's the reality of Jordan not having enough sleep and help me.

[Simon Scott]

Okay. So emotional expression.

[Jordan James]

Thank you.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, you're okay. So on our little like goog asking Google what, what autistic women do. Apparently autistic women may internalize their emotions more, leading to a higher prevalence of anxiety and depression, while autistic men may exhibit more externalized mental health issue behavior.

[Jordan James]

I had to edit that one as well because. Yeah, yeah, it said behavioral problems and I'm like, off. No, that's a bad AI. Bad AI. You know what? Just quickly, a lot of this, I was really impressed with that. The fact that AI has obviously gone into the world and picked out bits and a lot of it was really good. And I'm like, that actually kind of gives me hope for the future of the rhetoric of talking about autism is that it wasn't damaged, broken, diseased. It wasn't as bad. It wasn't any of that. It was actually there was only like a few little things here. I was like, oh, but that's because I'm very fussy. But most of it I was like, damn, like if somebody didn't know about autism at all and this is what they looked at without my edits, that, that would, that's actually really helpful, like that representation of autism. And I'm not a fan of AI in general, but as far as AI for stuff like this or searching and trying to understand something. But my suggestion is if somebody does do that, fine, great. But then also do more research because just looking at one thing is not research. That's the beginning of the research. And then you go, and luckily autistic

[Simon Scott]

people love a bit of research,

[Jordan James]

especially when it comes to vaccines. Do all your, all your research and, and find out that most people that say they're bad don't know what the hell they're talking about, in my opinion.

[Simon Scott]

So yeah, anyway, emotional expression, internalize your emotions. Would you say you do that, Ashley? Or would you say. Because when I, I think about the autistic women in my life, they aren't great internalizers, I'll be honest. Not that that's a bad thing. They just don't.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah. I wanted so much to be able to internalize because it was very not helpful in my family dynamic. My dad had a real. And I understand this whole dynamic so much more now, but he. I, I cry very easily, Very, very easily and always have done, ever since a little girl. And if my dad was upset, he had a bad temper and I would start to cry. That would just send him over the edge and he would. He'd be yelling and stop crying, stop crying. And I would want more than anything to be able to stop crying, but of course, it just made me cry harder. But I know a lot of people who grew up in similar situations and they were able to internalize and shut down and just really take it all inside. So it's very interesting how some people are able to do some children because, you know, this happens at a very early age. Some. Some people are able to do that. I wasn't able to do that. And that's kind of stayed with me my whole life. It's been. It's been a bit of a. I have such a different relationship with it now, which is really, really beautiful. I. I know that it is so much better to express your emotions than to internalize them, but it wasn't very helpful, especially when I used to work in an office, you know, crying at work. Oh, my God.

[Simon Scott]

It was just like, no, nothing worse is that.

[Ashley Bentley]

And you could feel it coming on. It's like, don't, don't do it, Ashley. Don't do it. And of course, you know, the, the horses left the stable again. It's like, no, it's happening. It is happening. You're crying at work and it's so embarrassing. And. Yeah, so that. So I do know that this is something that women are able. Some women are able to do. But it sounds like, Simon, the women in the autistic women in your life, similar to me, very expressive with their emotions, aren't able to internalize.

[Simon Scott]

And I would also say I am very like that. I really struggle to internalize my emotions. I have a face that comes with subtitles, you know, if I'm down. My mum always used to say she could tell if I'd had a good day or a bad day by how I walked across the playground to the car.

[Ashley Bentley]

Wow.

[Simon Scott]

She could just see the exact sort of day that I'd had. And a lot of, like, my signs of burnout is mutism. So I've always been somebody who's been quite open about talking about their feelings. It's come through Counseling and through, you know, work. But I'm more than happy to talk about when I'm not feeling okay. You know, I try to like, normalize it with people around me. I also try to like, you know, be the change you want to see in men because there is this sort of, you know, by being a tough guy, not talking about it is, is a weakness in my, my opinion. But I found the sort of like the women in my life, when they have burnout, it's really internalized, whereas it sort of in the moment, like, I see a lot of like emotional irregulation. And this is just from people that I've known that are nd and not necessarily autistic. But the sort of, it's that, it's the tears thing is I can really see like once it starts, it just, the mask sort of massively unravels and the sort of like shame and embarrassment because I don't get labeled as emotional. Whereas I feel like in, in a lot of walks in life, if a woman is labeled as emotional, it's such a slight against their character.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And of course, as we were saying before, you know, the more you try and push it down, the more it's just, ah.

[Simon Scott]

Oh yeah. Jordan calls it like the Coke bottle sort of effect. It's like the shake and the lids on it and you can just see it's gonna go bang.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes. Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. I mean, how do you find that? Jordan, Obviously your, you know, your wife, your daughter, sort of, how would you say they express their emotions as you feel like one's quite internal, one's expressive. What, what's your source of take?

[Jordan James]

See, I mean, I, I tend to agree with this despite the fact that you, your guys experience is different to what this, this information was saying. And I kind of feel like that's true, which is kind of the opposite to how most people would think. And, and, and so a lot of people will be like, oh, women are very emotional. You know, they will cry in public, they will, you know, tell people about their feelings. And it's like that, that's not what's not happening. I think with autistic women, it's, if they have an issue with something, they have a problem with something. If, if, if, if they, if they feel like they would need to want to fly off the handle and it's that societal expectation. So once again, they will mask, they, they will hold that back, which is probably why a lot of the time it just ends up coming out and crying. Because what I've noticed with, with my daughter is that instead of having a violent meltdown, she, she will feel it, but because she won't express it violently, it, it has to come out. Like we were saying about like the leaks, it has to come out so it, and she's stoic faced, just stoic faced and there's just tears pouring down her face and it's, she's showing no emotion to the tears. It's just that literally the tears leaving her body is like, you know, the anger coming out from the meltdown, but it's coming out as tears. Whereas for me in the past with the problems I had, it came out with me like punching myself or punching a wall or sewing, you know, a controller and stuff that I, I very, very rarely do now because I understand myself better. But for me, that's how it came out. It was very expressive. And once again, it's because I have that privilege of the fact that, you know, I can, I can get away

[Simon Scott]

with stuff like that, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

It is, it's much safer for me to do it as, as a white male to, to have a negative reaction and go, oh, I bloody things. And oh. Because most people are always having a bad day. That's just, that's just. Yeah, that's geezers. Yeah, he's a bit, he's a, he's a bit unhinged. But yeah, don't worry, he's a good guy. He's just, yeah, he's got problems.

[Simon Scott]

You've nailed that. It's. He's a good guy.

[Jordan James]

But yeah, but if it's a woman, it's like, oh, she crazy, mate. Oh yeah, don't go near her. She, she, she, she's crazy. She expresses her feelings and loses her temper and screams at people randomly. And I'm like, well, if a guy does that, that's just, oh, he's a bit aggressive but you know, he'll calm down once you've given him a Snickers bar. But if a woman does that, it's, oh, she's mental or, or even worse. And I have heard this in a toxic male environment and it makes me sick and I don't even want to say it, but it's, oh, she's on her period.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes.

[Jordan James]

Oh, yeah.

[Simon Scott]

One of the things that you've kind of nailed there, John, is I've had friends like in university or like walks of life where the, the date in a man's dating a girl or a guy that I know is dating a girl and his behavior is really problematic, non committal, kind of aggressive, very immature. As soon as like the, the, the girl in the relationship has bit back, oh, she's psycho, mate. Don't want to deal with her.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah, don't. Crazy.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

So disgusting.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, but that's, it's so interesting how like we seem to have these sorts of societal acceptances and I think that's one of the things as well about just being a neurodivergent person in general is we do question the norm. We are game changers. We're going, why do we have to do it this way? And that must be even more difficult. Ashley, as, as a female who has these sorts of expectations when you have a game changer mentality of going, while I see your rules, they're ridiculous.

[Ashley Bentley]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you're right. And I think, you know, it is so fascinating why. And I wonder if it's down to the fact that, you know, as the, the female archetype is known as the, is the nurturer, is the, you know, the maternal nurturer. So, and not to say. And so when you see a woman who's angry or, or you know, crying, it's, it's almost unsettling to the inner child in all of us. It's like that, you're, you're, I, I need to know you as this kind and so together and nurturing person. I don't know how to. This is making me very uncomfortable. Whereas men, as you know, it's very, we're strong, we go out and we do things and so, so being sort of vocal and expressing anger fits in with that archetype. So. Yeah, I think it's so interesting how these things do run very, very deep.

[Simon Scott]

And I think this is obviously where so much of the diagnostic bias comes in because just reading the Google suggestion here, due to differences in how autism presents in women, they are often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed with other conditions like anxiety, mood disorders, eating disorders, or even borderline personality disorder. That's the, the one that I seem to see float around a lot.

[Jordan James]

And that's the one I added because that wasn't.

[Simon Scott]

Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

[Jordan James]

That needed to be in there because I wasn't in there.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

So continuing this, the diagnostic criteria for autism are often based on the male presentation of the condition due to Leo Kanna's original research bias, making it harder to identify autism in women. And also, you know, non white people, bipos or Caesar, people of color.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I wrote all of that because all of that was wrong as well.

[Simon Scott]

Thank you for adding it. Yeah. In essence, while both autistic men and women experience autism, we experience it. Who knew the ways they manifest and express their autistic traits can differ significantly, impacting diagnosis, support, and overall experience.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, that wasn't me, but I did find that very interesting because I think it's quite succinctly put. And also, once again, if. If that's what AI is grabbing as

[Simon Scott]

information, and that's what rhetoric's out there in the majority.

[Jordan James]

So that's a positive thing, is that that information's out there and that's becoming the majority.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, that's one of the only, like, positives that, like, because I. I use AI, not by choice, necessarily in work. It's built into so many systems and softwares that I use now. But one of the things that I do find about it is it is looking through a lot of the information, the rhetoric, and making an unbiased conclusion. And if this is the sort of information that it's putting, even if it's not worded correctly or if the language is sometimes a bit blunt and, you know, borderline offensive. Yeah. You're having to add, you know, people of color in there or misidentified due to, like, Canna's research. But if I was a. A day one, I've just learned. I'm just learning that I'm autistic or having understanding in autism. This is a lot better than going on the National Autistic Society website or Autism Speaks.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan James]

And a million times better than watching a documentary that was made, like, 10 years ago, 40 years ago.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, if you're looking.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Jordan James]

Reading any book with a puzzle piece on the front.

[Ashley Bentley]

Once I found out about the connection between eating disorders and autism, I was like, oh, my God. Because I had an eating disorder when I was younger and through into my 20s, so that just finally it made so much sense. It made so much sense. And, yeah, the amount of women that are misdiagnosed with borderline and they don't have it, or they can coexist. So you can have borderline and you can also be autistic, but. But so often I think people are misdiagnosed as borderline, and really they're women and really they're autistic. And it's. Yeah, it's important. You got to get the right support.

[Simon Scott]

And this is the thing that kind of worries me, Ashley, in the. The amount of health professionals that I've navigated in the past who really haven't picked up on what I see now as, oh, my God, huge neon signs. How could you not pick this up? I have a lot less information at hand to the tools, the education that you guys have. How the. Are you missing this? I know, and I have spoken to so many who I believe to be autistic women in just throughout walks of life. And eating disorders, borderline personality disorders, mood disorders, anxiety, all seem to be so common in many women that I speak to within life. It seems to be. And obviously, you know, like, the autism in me recognizes the autism in you, and that's sort of like the, the recognization pattern that comes. But I've spoken to so many people that go, oh, I'm not autistic. I have borderline personality disorder. And I go. And I go, what's borderline personality disorder to you? And they go, oh, well, I'm a bit obsessed with the color orange.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it's okay. It's wild. Because that's exactly what happened with my sister. She was diagnosed borderline personality disorder. And then after I got diagnosed autistic, and then after I did all the research, become a specialist, even though she has a doctorate of psychiatry, and before that she had a psychology degree. But because she was, she was learning from books, she was learning from the current rhetoric. She was learning from the perspective of this is the information we know, so this is the information you will learn in order to pass your exams and become a doctor. Whereas I could just be a free thinker. I'm not, I'm not bound to a book. I'm not bound.

[Simon Scott]

You're not trying to get a degree,

[Jordan James]

and I'm not trying to get a degree.

[Simon Scott]

Get something. Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan James]

I'm just deep diving into my special interest, which gives me the freedom to be able to explore what I'm learning from a different perspective. Because who's going to tell me off for it? No one's marking my work. I'm, I'm, I'm just out there. I, I say that and then I put something on Facebook and everyone wants to mark my work, but which they have done. Especially when I was talking about, like, you know, the, the alternative neurotype and how the synaptic pruning, all that, and people have tried to bring it down. And then I was right, and I was like, where are you now? Yeah, where are you now? They're all quiet now on the Facebook front. But, yeah, so I, I definitely, you know, I very, very nicely went, yeah, you're just autistic. Like, you're the alternative neurotype. And she's like, no, no, no, I was diagnosed. And I'm like, yeah, but they were wrong. I'm like, I'm sorry, I know you. And I also know about borderline personality disorder, which is one of the most misdiagnosed things in the world for women.

[Simon Scott]

We don't know what it is, so it must be bpd.

[Jordan James]

I honestly think that there is a point. I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's not a thing because none of these things are things. They're, they're just written down. And it's opinions and it's psychology. It's a very opinion based, alleged science. I'm not a fan of psychology. I really am not. Sorry. Everyone is a psychologist, but yeah, it's mostly it's because it's spelled with a P, so shut up. Dyslexic here. But it is, it's very much opinion based. Eventually, you know, she started doing her own research. She started looking into it as well. And she's just come back to me, you know, about like six months later be like, yeah, I'm parent, I'm autistic. I was like, I know, sweetheart, I know you want to talk about it. And, and that was it. You know, I, I didn't push it, I didn't gloat in it. Like, that's, that's just because I, it, it's been the same with Sylvia. She, she's found it difficult to come to terms with the fact that she's neurodivergent. We've talked about neurodivergent closet and, and, and the neurodivergent closet, you get, you get lost in it to the point where it becomes narnia. You're so deep in that closet because so called professionals are throwing clothes on you in that closet. They're just throwing clothes in the form of other diagnosis emotions. Or, oh, it's, it's this thing, or it's that thing, or it's this thing, it's that thing. When it's clearly autistic or ADHD or both, it's clearly the alternative neurotype. But they're like, oh, because you're a woman, we'll give you everything else before we eventually get there. And that's what needs to change, that's what has to change. Because if a guy is in there, they go, I think you might be autistic or I think you might have adhd. And the woman will go with the exact same, exact same traits or symptoms. Behaviors, whatever they want to call it. And it will be, oh, it's, you know, bipolar disorder, or it's an eating disorder, or it's anxiety. It's always. Anxiety is a big one. Oh, you have anxiety sickness or whatever it's called, like. And it's like, they just want to skirt around the issue constantly. And that really, really needs to change. And it is changing a bit. And I'll just come up with a really, really good, positive thing. My son's girlfriend will love it a bit. We know she's neurodivergent. She's been with him for a year.

[Simon Scott]

We know.

[Jordan James]

And she actually went to the doctor to ask about an autism and an ADHD diagnosis, which I didn't even know you could do. So apparently you can go to the doctor and ask for both. Yeah, you can go for both. Because I said, which one is it? She went both.

[Simon Scott]

So co occurring. It shouldn't be. Just the matter of fact, as it was anyway.

[Jordan James]

And. And I was like, right. It was like preparing her for a fight. I'm like, okay, Rocky, what do you need to do? We need to go in the woods and we need to start pulling giants. When you get. We get slabs of meat and just punch them. Or alternatively. And I was like, take, take, take this book. Take that book. Print this out. And I was like, take this Dr. Luke Bearden book. Take this book. Show them this book. Oh, and. And I was like, trying to prepare her. And she. I'd imagine, like, mentally she was walking in there with like 10 rucksacks of information, but my son went with her because I even offered to go there with her. I was like, I will fight for you.

[Simon Scott]

And.

[Jordan James]

And it's like, no, no, Simon will do it. And I'm like. And then I'm starting to prepare Simon. I'm like, okay, Rocky, but I'll prepare you now. They. They. They had it. They. They got it. They. They went in there and they just said their thing. They didn't need to. And straight away, they. The. The doctor took her seriously and put her through for an autism and ADHD diagnosis. And I was like, well, for. For once, I have something good to say on this podcast about the diagnostic process. So yay, I guess.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Should we end on that positive note? Because that is a bit of a win, isn't it? I've just now got the image of your son now standing on the top of the ring going autism instead of Adrian.

[Jordan James]

As much as I want to finish, I really, really wanted to ask Ashley.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, sure.

[Jordan James]

What was your experience when you went for a diagnosis?

[Ashley Bentley]

Well, it was very interesting because it's. Even though the Isle of Man has the nhs, it's separate from the, the UK nhs, they, they work together in some ways, but it's, it's a complicated system. So when I started to realize, oh gosh, I might be autistic, I got in touch and I just, I knew what I had heard was that there was a long waiting list and I thought, that's fine, let's just get myself on the waiting list. And so I got in touch with the mental health team at the NHS here and had a call back. And I remember very distinctly having this phone conversation. It was during, it was early part of 2020, so Covid was going on. So it was a phone consultation and the guy was asking, you know, all sorts of, all sorts of questions. And he was like, right, so he was like, yeah, I can't put you on the waiting list. And I was like, why? He was like, well, you're not having, you're not in the middle of a mental health crisis. I said, so what's that? The only way I can get put on the list even is if I'm in the middle of having a mental health crisis. And he said, yeah, so that is changing now. They are, they're actively working on changing that right now. But yeah, I was just, I was just totally, just deflated. I was like, well, what, what, where the hell do I go now? So I had to pursue it in my, in my own way. I had to go private. So, yeah, so it's not very easy, but it is. You know, here we are five years later and, you know, things are changing rapidly, which is good to see. So hopefully people's ability to get properly assessed and diagnosed will just get easier and easier as we move on.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I'd be really interested to see the numbers actually, to see if like the, like the percentage of women who get diagnosed privately compared to men and especially adults as well compared to kids. Because I think if you literally, you walk in there with like a white boy who's like 6 or 7 and like he's rocking and, and then it's like, oh, well, here's your ticket to the Autism show. But like, if, if you're like a middle aged woman who's like, like, hello, my name's Jennifer and I, I think I might be autistic. And they go, yeah, you know what you're talking about, love.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

As Jennifer, like gets back in the car and she's just Flapping all over the place and just crying with a stoic face. And because the didn't see that, then he's like, oh, you. You gave eye contact.

[Ashley Bentley]

That's a classic one, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Bentley]

You can't be autistic. You've been able to look me in the eye.

[Jordan James]

It's like I was told that by a doctor when I was doing an ADHD assessment, and I said, I haven't once looked you in the eye. He goes, yeah, you give good eye contact. I went, I don't know what your eyes look like. I only know what your nose looks like because I looked at your nose.

[Simon Scott]

This is why it helps when people have glasses, because I'm just looking at the glasses, not at their eyes.

[Ashley Bentley]

Yes.

[Jordan James]

That's when I. That's why I wear sunglasses a lot, even indoors. One, because I don't like bright lights. But two, it just means that I don't have to look at people and there's no expectation because no one knows what I'm looking at.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, I'll tell you what, guys. I have really enjoyed this conversation today. I feel like I've. Not only have I learned a lot, but I think a lot of the people that will be listening to this will have as well. And if you're listening to this and you are unsure, if you're an autistic individual and you relate to us and you get a little tingle, then welcome. You're one of us, and you're very welcome here. And please continue to join us and keep coming back. We have lots of great conversations like this that just, you know, normalizes us as a people and as a culture. And you're not alone. You're not alone in thinking like this. We've all sort of struggled in our own little ways, and it takes time and a bit of patience and a bit of work, but it gets better. It really, really does. So thank you so much for joining us, everybody. Ashley, thank you so much for coming back.

[Jordan James]

I love having your episodes with us.

[Ashley Bentley]

Thank you. It warms my heart. I love. I love being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

[Simon Scott]

So we've got a. A hot topic for Friday and it will be a hot one. Maybe not as hot as the Elon Musk one, but it might be. It might be a simmer. So join us for that and, yeah, keep in touch. We will. Bye, everybody.

[Jordan James]

Nightly. Bye.

[Simon Scott]

Nightly.

[Jordan James]

Bye.

[Simon Scott]

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent experience. We hope today episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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[Jordan James]

In a world of endless notifications, there

[Ashley Bentley]

could be an important one you're missing. Your kidneys may be signaling an SOS

[Jordan James]

with high blood pressure or type 2 diabetes. Your kidneys could be warning you of early signs of damage, which may put you at higher risk for events like heart attack or stroke.

[Ashley Bentley]

But there's a simple test that can

[Jordan James]

help spot a hidden signal. Ask your doctor about a urine test called UACR to help detect kidney disease and heart risk early. To learn more, visit Detect the SOS.com today

[Simon Scott]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday, we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

[Ashley Bentley]

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books, TV shows, or music.

[Simon Scott]

To find out more, just search up the podcast with Knox and Jamie. Wherever you listen to podcast and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day

[Jordan James]

of the week,

[Simon Scott]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.