Why Gentle Parenting Doesn't Always Work for Neurodivergent Children

Summary

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The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: "Why Gentle Parenting Doesn't Always Work for Neurodivergent Children"

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the nuanced reality of “gentle parenting,” especially its limitations when it comes to raising neurodivergent children. Jordan and Simon draw deeply on their own lived experiences—as neurodivergent adults and (in Jordan’s case) as a parent—to discuss why well-intentioned gentle or “mollycoddling” approaches can become harmful if misapplied. The conversation explores the need for healthy boundaries, the impact of childhood trauma, the importance of teaching independence, and how neurodivergence complicates traditional parenting frameworks. Insights center on why neurodivergent kids may need more structure, clear consequences, and permission to be themselves—while also respecting their unique needs.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Parenting Identity and Family Dynamics

• Jordan reflects on not defining himself solely by parenthood, emphasizing the balance between personal identity and family.
  • "I wouldn't say I define myself as a parent. I define myself as Jordan." (06:17)
• Values chosen partnership and sees parenting as preparing children for independence:
  • "My job was to prepare my kids to leave my house. That is literally what every animal on earth does." (06:52)

2. On Boundaries, Trauma, and Generational Lessons

• The hosts share personal stories of parental trauma and how they’ve shaped their views on boundaries and resilience.
• Jordan discusses breaking the cycle of neglectful or inconsistent parenting—and the pitfalls of both excessive severity and overindulgence.
• Both highlight the challenge of not projecting personal trauma onto one's own children.

3. The Limits of Gentle Parenting for Neurodivergent Kids

• The hosts critique “gentle parenting” when it becomes over-permissive (mollycoddling), particularly for neurodivergent children who may struggle more with unstructured environments:

  "Overly gentle parenting is harmful because the world is not gentle. The world will never be gentle. If you over-coddle them... you’ve actually just harmed them because now they can’t do anything for themselves." – Jordan (29:26)

• Stress the difference between being supportive/accommodating and unintentionally impeding independence or resilience.

4. Boundaries, Consequences, and Building Resilience

• Simon reflects on the struggle to accommodate a child’s neurodivergent needs without limiting their long-term growth:

  “How do you accommodate their needs without unintentionally limiting their independence or their resilience?” – Simon (31:21)

• Jordan and Simon share anecdotes about learning consequences and how lack of boundaries led to risky behavior in childhood.
  • Jordan admits to youthful acts of rebellion and mischief, linking them to the absence of consistent boundaries at home.

5. The Role of Diagnosis & Synaptic Pruning

• Jordan discusses understanding his children’s neurodivergence only after their diagnosis, and how that shifted his approach:

  “Once I did find out my kids are neurodivergent, that’s when my decision-making became based on that.” – Jordan (28:38)

• Introduces the concept of “synaptic pruning” during teenage years and its dramatic effect on neurodivergent development:
  • "Sometimes it doesn’t take effect. That’s the point: our synaptic pruning is our lottery." (56:28)

6. Tech Use, Generational Change, & Society’s Influence

• Discussion on Gen Alpha, increased tech use, filming authority figures, and the erosion of interpersonal boundaries.
  • The hosts highlight societal shifts brought about by social media (“stitch incoming,” oversharing, parents posting kids’ content online without consent, etc.).

  “Your kid is not an accessory. That is a human that you are… responsible for. You chose to have a kid, you chose to have that responsibility.” – Jordan (63:30)

7. Practical Parenting Examples: Avoiding Over-Coddling

• Jordan illustrates his hands-on, boundaries-based parenting:
  • Example: When his son gets a bloody nose at football, Jordan checks for concussion but doesn't overreact to the blood, letting his son ride it out while remaining present.

    "Are you alright? How is your brain in this moment?" (66:07)

  • Contrasted with other parents panicking and over-managing.
• Emphasizes teaching children about ownership, responsibility, and consequences (e.g., removing privileges like internet or phones instead of physical punishment).

8. Accountability & Apology in Parenting

• Both hosts extol the importance of parental accountability—apologizing when wrong, and not wielding past helpfulness as emotional leverage.

  "If you're going to do nice things for your kids, do nice things for your kids. Don’t use it as collateral." – Jordan (79:40)

• Simon shares gratitude for growing up with parents who respected his boundaries and were willing to apologize or admit when they were wrong.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On boundaries and life skills:

  "Parenting isn't shooing out a child and going, 'Bye.' That's being a turtle...The world will eat your child alive because you're not paying attention." — Jordan (61:26)

• On generations and technology:

  "Gen Alpha lot are very intrinsically tied to their tech. It's so deeply ingrained..." — Simon (21:54)

• On overparenting and independence:

  "[With my son's surgeries], he went and did the surgery by himself... If he needs me, I’m here. But as soon as you over-coddle them, they’re not going to learn to do things for themselves." — Jordan (71:50)

• On learning from mistakes:

  "If I focus on all the things that I did wrong, then I’m just gonna sit around, you know, feeling bad. Right. I’ve already been through that... I will just try and be better than I was the day before." — Jordan (12:28)

• On being a neurodivergent parent:

  "As a parent, it’s kind of hard to let that go in a weird way. But also, you’re very happy to let that go." — Jordan (71:50)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:42 — Episode proper begins
• 06:00–13:30 — Discussing identity, trauma, and parenting role
• 28:30–31:19 — Why gentle parenting isn’t always enough for neurodivergent children
• 36:13–40:55 — Childhood rebellion, boundaries, and learning consequences
• 48:53–56:28 — Diagnosis, synaptic pruning, and adolescence
• 61:26–63:30 — Phone/screens, lazy parenting, consent and sharing kids' lives online
• 66:07–72:08 — Practical boundary-setting examples, letting children experience consequences
• 79:00–80:40 — Parental responsibility versus using it as emotional leverage
• 82:24–83:47 — The lesson of not shaming kids for distancing; accountability and apology
• 83:14–84:07 — Simon on being taught to have his own boundaries

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Summary Takeaways

• Gentle parenting, while preferable to punitive or authoritarian approaches, can become counterproductive if it slides into unstructured permissiveness—especially for neurodivergent children.
• Clear, consistent boundaries and meaningful (non-physical) consequences help neurodivergent youth develop independence, resilience, and self-regulation skills.
• Parents need to balance empathy and accommodation with the need to prepare children for a world that isn't always understanding or gentle.
• Admitting mistakes, apologizing, and modeling accountability are vital parts of respectful parenting for neurodivergent and neurotypical children alike.
• Overuse of technology, social media, and lack of boundaries—in both parenting and broader society—amplifies challenges for neurodivergent families.

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Tone and Style

Conversational, honest, and gently humorous. The hosts balance emotional candor with practical advice, drawing on personal mishaps, “parenting fails,” and real-world anecdotes. The language is relatable, direct, and peppered with neurodivergent affirming insights.

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For more in-depth neurodivergent conversations, visit Autistic Culture Podcast Network

Transcript

[Ashley Dupuis]

The autistic culture podcast network. The sound of autistic culture.

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[Jordan James]

I've got ideas.

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[Jordan James]

Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience Podcast, a podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

[Simon Scott]

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent Experience.

[Jordan James]

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.

[Simon Scott]

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the Neurodivergent Experience.

[Jordan James]

Hello and welcome back everybody. How are you doing? How you doing Scotty?

[Simon Scott]

Hello. You alright?

[Jordan James]

No.

[Simon Scott]

How's your back?

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

No,

[Simon Scott]

I'm feeling a bit sore today as well. Now the time I'm getting another year older, another lap around the sun and that back is just like why you do this to yourself? I'm like, well, exercise. Yeah, great.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, my back is It's. It's basically just teasing me at the moment and. Which is what? Basically, I have a pinched nerve. It's not trapped, it's just temporarily pinched. It's not a herniated disc like before, and I can feel it. So I've been doing lots of different sort of stretching exercises to try and compensate for it. And of course, every single time you do it, it works, and then it, you know, pinches back up again. And it's just a continuous thing of just keep, you know, trying until finally the bug bugger will just release. You know, it's like hit and miss. But I found that, like, hanging from a bar. So just freehanging from. From a bar. It has been one of the best things, and it is highly recommended, especially as you're getting older, to do free hanging a lot more, because it increases grip strength.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

And.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, strength is one of the things that you lose as you get into your. Your twilight years that can actually cause so many issues. So it's like, even if you, like, have to walk with a stick, you have to grip that stick.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, it's when I see people walking with the Zimmer frames, dude, and they're completely bent over and their core just completely disintegrates.

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Because they're not supporting themselves. My dad actually mentioned this to me because we were doing. We're doing a bit of work in my garden at the moment, and we've relayed some patio stones. And you. I don't know if you've ever heard this phrase, but you'll never hate anybody as much as the person that owned the house before you because some of the freaking decisions that they made, like, DIY wise.

[Jordan James]

Oh, God, yes.

[Simon Scott]

Literally, just, like, garden.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

I wanted to put actual grass down, so we took the paving slabs out and underneath there, it was just concrete, like crap. It was just. It was just like lots of different crap under there.

[Simon Scott]

So that's what me and my dad have been doing the past weekends or so. And he mentioned something to me where he was like, he's. He's 57 this year, maybe more, maybe less. And we were talking about it, and he was like, yeah. He said, I don't want to be like my dad, who, when he was 60, when he played golf, he just always had a boogie. And he constantly said he was too old for stuff. And he never kept working and using his body. Like, he never had, like, impact or, like, worked on his grip strength or anything. He just sort of sat in a chair at 60 and went, I'm old now and was old and. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Yeah. So, like, we're both gonna try and stay as active as we can. I mean, I'm talking. I'm not an old man. I'm in my prime, I'd say. But I am now hitting that age where aches and pains and things kick in and last a bit longer than they used to. So it's just trying to stay fit and healthy, isn't it? But that's not what we're talking about today. What are we talking about today, mate?

[Jordan James]

Well, we're kind of talking about that because it's about, like, you and your dad and your dad giving you that advice, but you also being able to give your dad advice. And the brilliant relationship the two of you have built despite going through so many different types of traumas, which, you know, is just every day as a neurodivergent person, you know, that's kind of just them on the chin, but it's about what you do, you know, with that trauma and how you cope with it. But being a parent is. Is basically. It's a huge part of my life. I wouldn't say it's the main part of my life. I wouldn't say I define myself as a parent. I define myself as Jordan. There's a lot of people that. That do just live their whole life by defining them, their entire world, as being a parent.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, They're a mum and dad first over. Yeah, absolutely everything.

[Jordan James]

Which. Which I have to admit, I. I don't get. I don't get. Because for me, my number one is Sylvia. She'll always be my number one. And that's kind of the only thing that's ever really made sense. Because I chose Sylvia, right? I didn't. I chose to have kids, but I didn't choose my kids. If I could, I'd probably choose the exact kids I have. I absolutely love and adore my kids. But I chose Sylvia to be the person that I will be spending the rest of my life with as a parent. My job was to prepare my kids to leave my house. That. That's what. That is. Literally what every animal on earth does, is they basically, they have a child so that child can then be an adult. And that is your job as a parent. You know, we. We're apes. That's what apes do. They prepare their. Their offspring.

[Simon Scott]

And at the right age, you yeet them off the branch.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. You just kick them off.

[Sophie James]

Kick.

[Simon Scott]

Get off me.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

This. That's. Those Are my leaves. I need, I need space for my bananas.

[Simon Scott]

This reminds me of. Dude, you remember the Lee Evans sketch where he's like the evolution of owning. I say owning, having a child where it's like at one age it's get down, get down. And then as soon as they become teenagers, it's get up, get up. And then they become adults and it's get out. Yeah, that's.

[Jordan James]

That is basically come down from there, get up from there and get out from here. Yeah, absolutely perfect. Love it. Literally my entire life I'm, I'm at. Now I just, I'm at that, the, the get out stage. But the thing is, is that I'm, I'm not in a hurry for them to leave. Like, I, I'm, I'm not sitting around going, get out. And because we are very, very close knit family. I mean, like, recently we've all got into Boggle. It just. Yeah, Boggle. It's. There's a new Boggle game on Netflix. So you basically interact with it. It's got like a QR code. You put it up on the screen and. And then everybody sits around the house and plays Boggle against each other using their phones.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, cool.

[Jordan James]

And it's just an interactive Boggle game and the whole family doing it. My son is basically Rain man of Boggle. It's.

[Simon Scott]

He sounds fun, though.

[Jordan James]

Oh, it, it is. And I'm getting better. At the beginning I was like Cat K. No see, ah, Kurt and Kat. So I could do a whole episode on Dissection. How much is pissing me off lately. But we're not going to do that.

[Simon Scott]

Sponsored by Boggle. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Funds with Bipogel. But yeah. So I feel like I'm at this part of my life where I look at both my kids and I look at the, the partners that they've chosen and how close I am with them as well, that they also now feel like my kids. We're all living in the same house. So literally yesterday I went out with my, my son's other half, Katie, who I think of as basically another one of my kids now. You know, she's another one of my daughters. And it was just the two of us. You know, we, we went and watched the Minion movie.

[Simon Scott]

All right. Yeah, cool.

[Jordan James]

We had fun. It was, it was a movie that happened.

[Simon Scott]

Are they near jumping the shark just yet or what? You know the phrase jump in the shark?

[Jordan James]

What's that?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, so do you remember Happy Days? Monday, Tuesday, Happy Days.

[Sophie James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Show that was on forever. It reached a point where in one episode, the Fonz jumped a shark with a jet Ski.

[Jordan James]

Oh, I see.

[Simon Scott]

And it's a very famous phrase of when a TV show goes on too long, has it jumped the shark?

[Jordan James]

Oh, I mean, I just thought because there was literally a shark in this movie.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, okay. Well, very literal of me then. But no, that's just the, The, The. The coin of phrase of when a franchise maybe overstays its welcome.

[Jordan James]

I was like, I remember the shark. I don't remember them jumping over it, though. But okay. No, I don't think he jumped the shark. I. I got. The experience got a little bit marred, but there were some people in that was making quite a lot of noise, and it was me off, but I complained and got free tickets, so hooray for me. Now I'm going to use them to go and watch the Odyssey next weekend. Free Odyssey. But, yeah, I, you know, I went and we went for a walk and we were just chatting and, you know, and she's neurodivergent, obviously, and we. We were just chatting about, like, assessments and things, and it was just. It was just like hanging out with another one of my kids. And that's it. It's like, I can. I can go off and do stuff with just me and Chris. We go off and do photography together. I have this bond with these kids, and they don't have to be my kids, which is the point I was making of, like, you have kids, but you don't choose your kids. Your kids are just born and then they're a product of, you know, their environment. They're a product of nature, nurture. I mean, like, listening to Sophie on the podcast the other week, she's literally like a little mini me.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And Sylvia was listening to it. She was like, oh, my God. It's like, I know that she's just like you, but this is ridiculous.

[Sophie James]

Now.

[Simon Scott]

Me and my dad are like, you know, no one ever joked that I was the postman's. I look like him, I sound like him. We have a similar cadence. Hold his hands in the same way. Like, I'm definitely his spawn from that.

[Jordan James]

Good to know. But, yeah. So it's. It's really fun to sort of see it's not like, the end product because, like, they're not like, that old, but they're 25 and 22. And I'm. I'm looking at, like, if I focus on all the things that I did wrong, then I'm just gonna sit around, you know, feeling bad. Right. I've already been through that, I've already, we, we've had therapy. Through that, we've had, you know, therapy. I've had with my children therapy. You know, I've been actively a dad that, that, that gives a, that tries to do better every day. That's how I've always lived my life, is that I will just try and. Than I was the day before. I'm just trying to improve and trying to improve and trying to improve. And that mentality meant that. Okay, so I didn't start off as the best parent ever. No parent does.

[Simon Scott]

And how are you gonna.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, Exactly. I was 19. I got a clue.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, man, you're still a kid.

[Jordan James]

I was, I'm still a kid now. Like, when I was there, I was

[Simon Scott]

a freaking even younger one.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I was even younger one trying to be older, trying to be responsible. And, and yeah, I got things wrong. But I, the, the, the key takeaway that, that I wanted to talk about today was boundaries and the fact that I basically, I was watching a YouTube video and, and I was not aware that it was this bad. I'm, I'm very disconnected from the world in general, I feel, because I'm, I've got my hobby, I'm very autistic in that way. I've got my hobbies. And if they're not in my hobbies, then I'm not really interested.

[Simon Scott]

Don't retain that information.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I can't. That's why I like watching YouTube videos where I can actually, you know, discover things about the world that everybody else seems to know but from completely pass me by. Like, what was it? I, I like watching Papa Meat because he'll do like, breakdowns of videos of like, different things on the Internet. Like swifties.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan James]

I had no idea it was swift.

[Simon Scott]

Like cultural commentary. Breakdowns.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, the, you know, people who, who love Wicked and, and what?

[Simon Scott]

What?

[Jordan James]

And then them singing in the cinema and ruining other people's experiences. I had mine ruined a bit yesterday because of stupid people doing stupid things. But it's. I, I, because I don't know about these things. I always find it really, really interesting. And I was watching this video about, you know, Gen Alpha.

[Simon Scott]

I, yeah, honestly, I was the next ones up.

[Jordan James]

We're there. Now everyone's complaining about Gen Z. I'm not. But everyone seems to be complaining about Gen Z. But now everyone's coming. Now Gen Z can play about Gen Alpha. And I'm like, I see a pattern here.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan James]

It's just no one likes the generation

[Simon Scott]

no one ever worked harder than my generation in the good old days. Said Gen X and boomers and the war generation and the Victorians just keep passing it along. Yeah, it's all the same.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it. It does. It does seem like that. But what. What we've got now is Gen X teachers moaning about Gen Alpha kids in their class, Right. But they're filming themselves moaning about it. And I'm looking at it from my generation, like, why. Why did you have to film yourself saying this? What, is there not like a pub you can go to? You can like. Or like a teacher's lounge where you can just talk about the kids? I mean, isn't that the tradition? You know, teachers just talk about the kids? Because some kids, including myself, were an absolute night.

[Simon Scott]

I think it could be very good that as a teacher going online and.

[Jordan James]

No, I think it's terrible.

[Simon Scott]

I've got a friend who's a teacher and I've been around their house and they've had a bottle of wine and we've had a good run, and they were like kids, but they would never go online and film themselves saying that. It's like when you see people have accidents and stuff, and rather than help the person up, the filming. No, put the camera down. I'm bleeding out.

[Jordan James]

Well, I'll give you a good example of, like, me versus, like, the most people, it seems, even like the older generation is that. There was a lady, an older lady in Cafe Nero the other day, and she'd gone to the toilet, come back, and her skirt was like. Like stuck up into her pants.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yes, unfortunate.

[Jordan James]

And I just said to Sylvia, I was like, please go and tell her. So I. I was like, you know, trying to look away. And I was like, that poor lady, she has no idea. And she was up getting a coffee.

[Simon Scott]

Sensational.

[Jordan James]

And no, everyone's just ignoring it. And I'm like, I can't. I can't go and say it. I don't. I don't feel comfortable in saying it because I'm a bloke and I'm just like, yeah, Excuse me. Yeah, not okay. And I'm just like. I'm so. I'm. I feel so bad for her. And I'm just like, babe, just. Just go and tell her now. Sylvia is not that person. She was that person in that moment because I asked her and I was like, if. If it was you, babe, wouldn't you want someone to say something? And so if it was like, no, no, no, you're right, because Sylvia's a really Good person, but, you know, she has that very neurodivergent.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Oh, very, very much so. I'm. I'm the person that will always get her to push. Push through those boundaries. Because, you know, like I said, I complained in the cinema, get free tickets. That's kind of like a. Nearly every time I go to the cinema. I've realized that ever since I was a kid and I watched this movie called Larger Than Life, and I got free tickets. I realized I can get free tickets cleaning. It's kind of a hack, but, yeah. So she went and just, you know, said to this woman, very quietly, the woman was so appreciative, and she pulled down her dress and, you know, she was so appreciative. And Sylvia comes back and she's. I was like, what happened? She's like, oh. She said, really? Thank you very much. And I was like, see, doesn't that feel good? She's like, yeah, yeah, it does, actually, because, like, I. She also felt bad for the lady. But it's.

[Contentful/Aura Advertiser]

It.

[Jordan James]

That. That's the kind of person I am. And. And what you were saying is that it's like so many people would have just filmed it. And then I. I keep seeing this. This phrase across every reel, like, stitch incoming and. And shit like this when. When it's nothing. Nothing they're recording is funny. There is no stitch. The only. The only stitch that I can think of is like, lilo and stitch of like, you are literally a badly behaved alien creature.

[Simon Scott]

And also, like, the stitch incoming thing, a stitch on Instagram is somebody reacting. So it'd be like the two windows that you and I have got in our filming window, except in my window was something that was filmed. And then you're just. Your face is just there reacting to it, being like.

[Jordan James]

I keep seeing that. I'm like, I'm watching a video of somebody else watching a video.

[Simon Scott]

And then do it in a mad way, man.

[Jordan James]

Weirdest thing.

[Simon Scott]

Like, as an example, right, this is something that I found audible. We'll get back to the boundaries things. I'm interested to hear your point on it. In the. I will see a lot of videos online of people arguing, filming each other. They'll be in the street arguing, and they'll have cameras in each other's faces. Like, you know when you see in the US like, police brutality videos where people are filming the police. People do that with everything. It's like they'll have an. You'll be in Asda and somebody will steal something, and people will stand around or they'll all start filming it, and then the person that's stolen something or then film the person that's telling them off and being like, I want to know your name. I'm gonna put this online. Like, I have thought about it a few times. There is a guy who lives up my street who never picks up his dog shit, ever. And I've seen him do it. And he's the sort of bloke that he gives off the aura that he wants somebody to say something to him. And further down the street, there's a guy who smokes cigarettes out his back porch and just flicks the butts into the street, and they're everywhere. And I'm like, whatever. But I know for a fact. I know for a fact if I was to confront those people, they would film me and put it on Facebook and be like, who's this? Or, like, put it in, like, the estate group chest. This is a very common thing in society now. And I find it weird.

[Jordan James]

I see I'm the person that would be sneaky about it, and I'd go around picking all that dog up and all those butts, and I would literally put them through the letterbox.

[Simon Scott]

But this is the thing with ring cameras. And, like, you just. It's not.

[Jordan James]

It's at night with a balaclava. I'm smarter than you think.

[Simon Scott]

But there's a camera everywhere.

[Jordan James]

I'm just giving it back. I'm giving it back. I'm giving the dog back.

[Simon Scott]

But this is the society dude or something. So I've seen videos of, like, not through choice, because Instagram just goes throw stuff at you. I've seen footage of people filming teachers crashing out at kids where, like, kids are misbehaving in class, like, what you were saying earlier, and the teachers are having a go at them, and they just start filming the teachers, like, yeah, like, the Gen Alpha lot are very. They're very intrinsically tied to their tech. Like, it's. It's so deeply ingrained into everything that they sort of do is odd.

[Jordan James]

Right, let's delve deeper. But let's have a break first.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

This year's girls trip to Telluride was the best. We went upped ourselves with my Sapphire preferred card. And with five times points on Chase Travel, plus three times points on vacation homes with top brands, we got this incredible cabin.

[Ashley Dupuis]

It was a mansion.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

And with three times the points on dining, we ordered a wagyu steak dinner, and that pistachio gelato was too good. So where should we go next year?

[Ashley Dupuis]

I've got ideas.

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[Sophie James]

hi, I'm Sophie James, a neurodivergent mentor with four years of experience supporting neurodivergent individuals. As an autistic and ADHD woman myself, I know firsthand what it's like growing up in a neurotypical world and trying to navigate spaces that weren't built with our brains and mind. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or supporting a neurodivergent child or teen, I offer experience led peer mentoring grounded in understanding, connection and neuro affirming support. Together we explore strengths, build confidence, and develop practical ways to navigate life while embracing who you are. If you'd like to learn more about my mentoring work, visit sophiejamesndmentoring.com hi everyone,

[Ashley Dupuis]

it's Ashley Dupuis here, the in house therapist on the neurodivergent experience and host of Mindful Mondays. And if you've been listening to these podcasts and thinking, gosh, I'd love to explore this work more deeply. I'd love to let you know about what's coming next. This September I'll be opening a small group coaching cohort, a gentle, supportive space to explore the kind of work we've been doing here together. So if you've been resonating with the From Mask to Map series or with the deeper themes we've been exploring on Mindful Mondays. This will be a chance to take that work further in community with guidance, reflection and practical tools to help you understand yourself more clearly and move through life with more ease. So if that speaks to something in you, I'd love to hear from you. You can register your interests by emailing [e-mail] and you can also keep an eye out on integrativeiom.co.uk where I'll be sharing more details over the coming weeks.

[Simon Scott]

Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. We've been discussing parenting and kids and the phones and a bit of tech and boundaries. So before the break, dude, you were about to delve deeper into parenting and boundaries.

[Jordan James]

So, yeah, I mean, like, like let me reiterate, like why I think that I'm, you know, like I can be sitting here giving other people advice or like, this is what you should do. I mean, both my kids have highly respected degrees. One got a degree in economics from a London university and Sophie's got a degree in marine biology from Exeter University. And both of them are very good at what they're doing. Sophie, obviously, you know, people have heard on the podcast she's starting her own business. My son works for a company where he basically does data analysis and, and, and accounts and things like this and stuff that monumentally bores me. But he's been very successful and he's very well liked. He's very well liked. Both my kids are very active, both of them are into sports and fitness and they well rounded kids, they are just flourishing. And it's not just them flourishing. The relationship with Sylvia and I flourishes. You know, we are always hanging out with each other, doing stuff together, playing video games, going on walks, going on holidays. We are very, very good as a family unit. Now that's important because now, like I said, I'm in this place where I'm looking at the, the next generation and I would even look at the generation of, of like when I, when my kids were younger and I would look at other parents and I would look at them and, and this is a word that I'm, that I will always like, get wrong. It's either Molly coddling or Moddy coddling.

[Simon Scott]

Oh yeah, it's a funny one, that one, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's Molly coddling probably. Yeah, we got a cod, but it's coddling essentially. Now there, there is a very difficult decision that a parent must make of a child, but there Is it times it like most things with being neurodivergent? Times that, by 10, if not more, when you have a neurodivergent child. Now keep in mind, I did not know my kids were neurodivergent. Had I known, maybe my parenting would have been not weaker, but certainly I would have made better decisions. And as soon as I did find out my kids are neurodivergent, that's, that's when my decision making became like, based on that.

[Simon Scott]

It was more aligned.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I, I was certainly more forgiving of mistakes. No, like I said, I, I can't say that I was great, but I, I, every day I tried to be better. Every day I tried.

[Simon Scott]

It was a very information that you've got, right?

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Once it changes, you change.

[Jordan James]

I, I was an active parent. That, that's how I describe it. Like I wanted to be a great parent and I wanted my kids to be great and I wanted to do great things with them and, and, and, and be great for them. When I got it wrong, I would then correct that all the time. So giving this advice isn't saying that the parents out there are doing something wrong. I'm just saying that maybe you need to sort of correct your trajectory to hit the target, as it were. So what I used to see and what I'm currently seeing with this gentle parenting is like the polar opposite to abusive parenting. And in a weird way, now I'm not calling it abusive, but it is harmful. Overly gentle parenting is harmful because the world is not gentle. The world will never be gentle. If anything, it's getting less gentle every day because you can't even leave your house without feeling shitty because you read something and how you react to something. And I think if we bring up kids that, that think that they can do whatever they want, they can have whatever they want, they can, you know, push those boundaries and nothing will ever come back. They're going to have a very tough time when they get into work and when they have to deal with the police, when they have to deal with authority, when they have to pay taxes and, and, and deal with government officials or doctors or anything, when they have responsibilities, if you over coddle them, if you do everything for them, if you bring those kids up with the idea that, oh, I've protected them, I've done my job because I've done everything for them, or well, you've actually just harmed them because now they can't do anything for themselves.

[Simon Scott]

So this is something that I've thought about as somebody who's unless something drastically changes and it's not going to have kids. And I often think about, not just even with neurodivergent children, but just children in general is how do you accommodate their needs without intention, like, unintentionally limiting their independence or their resilience? Because I think about, like, my sensory issues and some of the challenges that I have. But you can't avoid every uncomfortable situation.

[Jordan James]

No, of course not.

[Simon Scott]

You can't. Like, I've had it where I, I struggle with confrontation because I don't like confrontation. But I find if, if somebody pokes the bear, I react in a big way. And, you know, I think that's quite common with a lot of neurodivergent people. We feel threatened and we, we kick off. And I have worked with Gen Z and I've seen a lot of them come into the workplace and I'm not gonna get on that bandwagon of, oh, they're all soft, none of them have got backbones, because that's bollocks. I've seen some people work incredibly, incredibly hard.

[Jordan James]

Look at my kids, they're jc.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, exactly. And one thing that I have experienced, though, is there are a fair amount of Gen Z people that I've interacted with that do not understand what the word no is like. They will push it. They'll push it with you. And I found, like, I worked with a guy, nice lad, but it's not that he didn't have a work ethic. He thought he was better than the work. And we were working. This is when I was running that bar and he was a nice lad and he, you know, he, I could see that he could do it, but he gave off this sort of arrogance that it. He was better than it. And he rubbed people up the wrong way. And when I got there, he was like, why have you been made one of the managers? I've been here longer than you. And I was like, well, I think the question you need to ask yourself, mate, is why didn't you get the job? Not why I got the job because I'm older than you, I've got a lot more experience. And I was running bars when you were literally 8, 9 years old, because I'm nearly 10 years older than you. And he would not let it go, dude. He had a problem with me because I got the. A job that he thought he deserved to the point of it started to affect his work. Well, I would tell him to do stuff and he'd just be like, off. And it was hard, like I had it. I found it really hard not to. To lose my cool with him a lot of the time. And over the year that I worked with him, I felt like I finally got through to him towards the end because we had this confrontation where he'd been in work for like an hour and a half and he was hung over. He'd been out the night before, and he went, I hate working here. I don't want to be here today. And I turned to him and I went, go home. I says, but I promise you, if you go home, you won't come back. And he proper got upset with me. He was like, you're trying to fire me. I'm like, I'm not. You're trying to fire yourself. I'm like, you're literally saying that you don't want to be here. When you are here, you act like you don't want to be here. You go on your lunch break for over an hour and a half and you bugger off and leave everybody. You just go on smoke breaks whenever you want. I'm like, you do not respect anybody that you work with, so why would anybody respect you? And he literally looked at me as if I'd just slapped him in the face. He's like. He was like, I can't believe you're speaking to me like this. I'm like, I'm sorry, what, what do you mean? What do you mean you can't believe I'm speaking? And it literally. I went home and it spun me off the clock for days because I could not believe that somebody being told to just book their ideas up at work and just try a bit harder and be respectful of other people was like, I'd literally just spat on him. It just baffled me. Absolutely baffled me. And it stuck with me because I was like, huh, that's strange. And I've experienced it elsewhere as well, where I've been in shops and I just see people trash the place. And it's like younger sort of people, and they're all around in shops and throwing things at each other, and they're all filming each other. Like, it's like, it's funny and I just, I don't get it, but I can see where it's come from in the. There's just been parents that have just sort of just let the kids just do what they want and never sort of set a boundary with them and been like, you, you don't do that to other people. You respect other. Do you know what I mean?

[Jordan James]

I, I what, What I found really, really interesting about this video that I was watching was the fact that I, it's, it's almost like Gen Z are like, I can't believe how bad Gen Alpha are. Like, we were never like this. And, and I'm looking at going off.

[Simon Scott]

You're basically the same generation.

[Jordan James]

You, you were exactly like that. My generation was exactly like that. I, I used to do that. I absolutely was. Would piss people off.

[Simon Scott]

We just didn't film it.

[Jordan James]

I just didn't film it. I'll tell you, one of the worst things that I absolutely did is that there, there was, there was a, a pub landlord who was an absolute dick of my local pub. Wouldn't let me drink beer at the age of 12. What a dick, right? So I was like, oh, I hate this guy. So what I did in my very stupid child brain with the parents, because my parents were abusive, my parents were neglectful, my parents were downright awful. But they also didn't set boundaries. They would absolutely let me get away with so much, which is like, it sounds paradoxical, it just doesn't make sense.

[Simon Scott]

But you've learned the lesson in your own way.

[Jordan James]

But, you know, because what they would punish me for was things that weren't my fault, but when I actually acted out, they were just like, oh, he's just being a child. It was the weirdest because, yeah, if it, if it was personal to them, they would punish me. But if it was to anyone else, they, they'd be like, well, you know, it's not his fault. He's just, he's just a kid. So they just didn't want to take any responsibility. Yeah, they did basically just didn't want to take any responsibility. Yeah, parents did you want it to

[Simon Scott]

be on their doorstep. I get that.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So they wanted everybody else to think that I was a great kid so they would just, you know, make excuses for me. My excuse was the fact that no one really seemed to give a about me.

[Simon Scott]

He just kept.

[Jordan James]

So I was just like, whatever. So what I did. And this is horrible. I can't believe I did this. I systematically went around every single car in the car park on like a busy Saturday night and I let all their tires down.

[Simon Scott]

Dude, that's very naughty.

[Jordan James]

I didn't damage them, I didn't like slash them. That's very naughty. And then just. But, oh, it's fucking awful. What a little shit.

[Simon Scott]

And you know why you did that? Can you remember why you just did it?

[Jordan James]

Well, yeah, because I was pissed off at the guy that owned the pub. But because he, he was a, a dick. He really was. But also because I, I just hated grown ups and I was like, you all lot, you know, freaking grown ups and in the pub and you all seem to be so right. I just, I hated grownups and I hated grownups because every grown up treated me like.

[Simon Scott]

So I have to ask you, right, I grew up knowing consequences existed. Like if I was to do something like that. Well, I never really did anything like that. There were, there were times where I wanted to, where I felt like I wanted to lash out or I was angry at how somebody had spoken to me or treated me or whatever. But I was always so aware of the consequences of my actions and the, if I did something wrong, what happened next was out of my control. And whether it was with teachers or with my parents or whatever. And I would naturally stop myself doing stuff like that because I was like, oh, this isn't okay. And what happens next I don't have control over, so I'm not going to do it. And I think my mum and dad were really, really good at that. But I can understand like with impulse control and being nd how you're almost in like that meltdown state and you get vengeful, you just do, you could just do stuff. If you didn't have that like boundaries built into your sort of like psyche, you would just do stuff uncontrollably, wouldn't you?

[Jordan James]

Oh, I would, I would do awful stuff. There was a tree that I used to climb that, that was a, went above like a road. It was like a back road. It wasn't used very much. It was like an off the beat road. So you wouldn't get. It's not like cars, cars, cars. It was like, you know, every half an hour there might be a car.

[Simon Scott]

You grew up in the countryside, so,

[Jordan James]

yeah, literally in the middle of the countryside. This, this was a road that would lead to a farm, you know, and a farm shop. And you know, it was just. Wasn't very busy. And we're talking about like, you know, late 80s, early 90s. It's like not as many people, there's not as many cars. But I used to sit up there. It was kind of like one of my bases, you know, one of my kid bases. I'd sit up there and I'd sit up there with my younger brother and you know, we would get bangers. Now if people. Yeah, I'm not talking about sausages, obviously to people who don't understand what a banger is, a banger is like a I don't know what it is. It's like a piece of paper wrapped up with, I think, gunpowder or something inside.

[Simon Scott]

Something isn't, though. It's like a flinty thingy. But you drop them in, they go pop.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. You throw them, and if they hit something, they go bang. Yeah. You don't like them or anything like that. They're not dangerous, you know, Old school Bart Simpson. If you threw it in someone's eye, it literally wouldn't explode because an eyeball is not hard enough for the impact. Yeah, make. Make the bang. It just hit you in the eye. You'd be like, in my eye. But as cars drove by, I would throw them at the car. It didn't do damage to the car. I wasn't throwing rocks and like that. I'd never do that. But I'd imagine it would probably scare the. Out of someone as they're driving past. And they're just. Real bang. Yeah, right. A lot of the times I don't think they probably even heard it, but it was a stupid thing to do. And I. I would do stuff like this all the time because one where I lived, there was literally nothing to do. Okay. And I would do this stuff because my parents didn't do stuff with me. They didn't. Especially my dad would. He wouldn't interact with me unless it was on his terms. So I would do this stuff because literally I was a kid. I was out by myself. I was bored, and my immediate thing was, I'm just going to go and cause trouble. I never got caught. I never got punished. I taught myself to not do these things. As I grew older, I was like, well, no, I can't. I should. That. That's. That's. You shouldn't do that. You can't do that. So weirdly enough, I created my own boundaries. When I had no boundaries, I created my own boundaries. But it took so much to do that. And I used to get in so much because when I did get caught, my parents wouldn't do anything. But I'd get. You know, I got suspended from school. I got threatened with expulsion because I was punching people, because I was headbutting people. I was very, very violent. I was very naughty. I used to steal stuff from shops, not because my parents wouldn't buy it for me, but because it was the rush. It was fun. It was like, oh, shoplifting, trying to feel something. Yeah, no, I. I just. I did it because, like, no one seemed to care about me, so I was like, it, whatever. And. And instead of being like, you know, a good child. You know, which I am inside. You know, inside I'm just like, I want to work and I want to learn and I want to. I just had this rebellious side to me of, of, like, well, I don't have any boundaries. And, And. And I'm. And. And I'm very, very smart. Like, I don't like to. I don't want to push that, but, like, I'm not a dumb kid that was doing dumb things and then getting caught. I was a. I was a very smart kid doing very stupid things. But because I was smart, I knew exactly how to get away with them. Yeah. I knew how to manipulate adults and how to. In order to get away with things. I used to fake going home from school. I used to pretend I was ill all the time because I didn't want to deal with school. Now, I wouldn't say that was bad. I think that was bad at the school because I, you know, I hated school. But I would manipulate everyone around me in order to be able to just get away with. I was a, you know, I wouldn't say I was a bad child. I was just. I was a good child behaving badly. And, and that is 100 was down to my parents because they didn't create boundaries. It was literally. I. I remember, like, the worst punishment I ever got from the beating that I got from my dad, which. We were watching a TV show and they hinted at a swear word. So they said, far. And then it. The, you know, the, The. It went to another scene and he was like, oh, I can't believe they're swearing on television. I'm like, he would swear all the time, by the way. So the hypocritical. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Simon Scott]

I've experienced this with people.

[Jordan James]

He'd be like, oh, why are they fucking swearing on that fucking telly? And he turned it off. And I'm like, why have you turned it off? We were watching a show together. Why have you turned it off? Oh, they're swearing. No, they didn't swear. Oh, don't you tell me. And he just went off on one, right? And then I basically started having a go at him. He started having a go at me. And, you know, that's when he physically assaulted me. And then I physically assaulted him back. And that was the last time he ever touched me. And I think that also, that sort of shift in dynamic. I was 13 and I'd made my dad bleed. He was scared of me.

[Simon Scott]

That is a. Unfortunately a thing that happens with a lot of young Men that are abused by their dads. There it come. I've met quite a few guys that were abused by their dads, and there is always that moment of when they fight back and then they realize that they can't beat the kid up anymore and they stop.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I think it's pretty pathetic, but I was burly, but it's normally that age.

[Simon Scott]

Dude, it's 13.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. I'd started learning boxing. I'd started learning how to protect myself, and I'd learned exactly how to hurt people. I knew how to hurt people. And I, and, and he didn't. He was a, an it nerd. And the, the.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, he's punching him.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, he's literally punching a child. And that's the only person he's ever punched in his life. Was, was, was, was me. He never, he never got into a fight. He just beat up his kid instead. I mean, it wasn't like, it was like a regular thing. It was just this, this was my dad having a meltdown. That, that's what was happening. It was, it was unrecognized neurodivergence, and he was having. And, and then when, when you understand, like, how terrible my, my birth mother was, like, how awful she was, especially to him. She was a mean woman. So he had to put up with her as well. And he just had a meltdown. I mean, his work was. And I'm, I sound like I'm trying to make excuses for my dad beating me up, but, like, the end of the day, I, I, I, I can actually understand that. But because that power dynamic shifted, I realized, like, oh, wait a minute. I don't have to take this.

[Contentful/Aura Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And like I said, when, when my brother died when I was 16, I was just, I was looking out for blood.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah, because you were just so incredible. Regulated.

[Jordan James]

I was just all the time like, you, you know that little red dude in. What? What is it?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, God damn it.

[Jordan James]

The, the Disney movie.

[Simon Scott]

Inside Out.

[Jordan James]

Inside Out. I'm a little red dude. But when he's on fire. That was me all the time.

[Simon Scott]

She woke up on fire. But this is, this is interesting. Like, I appreciate you. I know that's not easy to talk about. I appreciate you sharing it. But that is something that I've thought about as, As a parent is like, how obviously with, like, neurodivergent children, the sensory meltdowns. But a lot of the time, I think when I was growing up and was undiagnosed, a lot of my sensory meltdowns were viewed as challenging. Behavior. And I felt bad for having those behaviors in a way, like, when I got, like, overly excited or I got overly upset or. I remember there was one time when I was young girls on a playground, and I got quite a nasty splinter in my foot, and I had, like, a really bad meltdown, and I had to be dragged out of a restaurant kicking and screaming and things like that. And for a long time, that was never viewed as, oh, Simon's got sensory issues. It was. He has challenging behaviors. And in a lot of ways, I masked myself a lot to try and work on those challenging behaviors as quote, unquote. So I can imagine, as a parent, what. You know, you almost have your before diagnosis after diagnosis with your kids. What changed for you, like, once you figured out about the sensory thing? Did you view your kids differently or, like, how you treated them differently? Like what. What changed?

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I mean, weirdly enough, I actually found out. Yeah, you can cross this one off your bingo card. Synaptic pruning.

[Simon Scott]

Oh.

[Jordan James]

Way before I found out that I was neurodivergent. And it came when, because my kids were so well behaved. They. They were. I mean, Simon was difficult with his demand avoidance, which obviously, I had no idea what the hell that was. I just thought that he hated me for a long time, that he would do the exact opposite to everything I told him to. And, yeah, Simon was. Was hard work, and Sophie was not. But it completely changed when they were teenagers. But in order to prepare for them being teenagers, I remember someone at my work saying, oh, they're. You know, you wait. Because I was like, oh, my kids do this and do this and say, yeah, your kids are lovely, but you wait till they're teenagers. And I'm like, I don't. I don't see why they would be so different. You know, living in my fantasy world, my kids will always be perfect. And so I actually, instead of just being like, oh, kids. Kids are different, you know, and everyone goes through the teenage years or the Kevin years.

[Simon Scott]

If I was just about to say

[Jordan James]

Kevin and Perry, oh, God, you're so bloody embarrassing. Yeah, I'm not your slave.

[Simon Scott]

I'm not your slave.

[Jordan James]

I hate you. Yeah, I mean, literally, that was spot on. It was the most accurate.

[Simon Scott]

My dad used to call me Kevin all the time. And then he was like, as soon as your mom comes in, he's like, who, Ms. Patterson?

[Jordan James]

Whom is person? I was like, stop doing your Kevin face. And I like this. You know, the person works. They. They said that. And then I. I was like, oh, I'm going to go and do research. Why does this happen? So even back then, before I knew that they were neurodivergent, before I knew I was neurodivergent, I was already preparing for them to be teenagers in order for me to to understand where they were coming from. I mean I remember when I was a kid I was just always tired, always moody, you know, I didn't want to go to bed but you know, I needed to go to bed. And I always, like I said, always knackered. Didn't really want to talk to people, didn't really want to communicate. And like I said, that's like times 10 when you're neurodivergent, you know.

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[Jordan James]

So with with my kids I was like, okay, why? It's because of the synaptic pruning process when they're teenagers, which obviously that's the second round of it. You know, I had no idea the connection to neurodivergence that would have. I was just wondering why teenagers are so unresponsive, why they go from, like, you know, energetic kids that just want to know everything about everything to kids that barely want to, you know, communicate with, you know, get out of bed or, you know, give you more than a grunt.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

What.

[Jordan James]

What do you want? What do you want?

[Simon Scott]

Why you.

[Jordan James]

Leave me alone.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And it's literally the synaptic pruning process. It's literally the thing that actually turns their brains into mush. And it's such. Such an energetic. What's the one I'm looking for? Energetic experience and process that the brain goes through. Because your brain is basically controlling everything. Your brain controls everything. So your brain works super hard as it is because, you know, for a start, it's got to help you breath, breathe. Without your brain, you can't breathe.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, no. I went on manual again.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. And so your brain is doing all these things, but also it's basically destroying itself and recreating itself like caterpillar in

[Simon Scott]

the cocoon sort of thing, isn't it? It, like, melts certain bits, but it's still functioning while that's happening.

[Jordan James]

See, that is. That is a great idea. All kids between the age of 13 and 17 should go into hibernation. Well, it's funny we just stick him

[Simon Scott]

in hibernation, but when we were hunter gathering gatherers, it's very, very common that at like, 14, 15, you would leave your tribe and go and on a walkabout and spend time with other tribes. Well, one, to stop incest in the. The species, like, close related. But also, that's the thing of, like, you stop listening to your parents because your brain is trying to tell you to go on a walkabout and go to another tribe and be independent and have your own experiences and then come back and be a part of the family unit. I find that really interesting, but I agree. It's like with teenagers, you could almost do with not sending them to boarding school, but you're right. Yeah. They could probably just do with a good lie in for a few years and then let them come out and get on with it.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. So I. I was looking at this and. And that definitely made me adjust my parenting style when. When they did get to teenage years. And. And like I said, it was really strange because Simon seemed to become. Like I said, this is why I think the second round of synaptic pruning is so important within the neurodivergence. Because I've said this before, we get labeled as like a certain level of autism or functioning labels and shit like this that I absolutely hate as a child. And then you, you just, you can't get rid of them. So you're level two and you're level two forever. And it's like that's not how the fucking synaptic pruning process works. That so many, and we, we've seen this in Steve Silverman's book Neurotribes and, and with so many examples of neurodivergent kids, mostly autistic kids, you know, saying that, oh, they'll, they'll never work, they'll, they'll never live a quote unquote normal.

[Simon Scott]

They'll never play baseball.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, never play baseball. And, but when they go to teenage years, it's, it's like they, they, they suddenly get it. You know, they make leaps and bound. They might, they might never catch up with their peers around them. But in comparison to how they were, they make leaps and. Leaps and bounds. And that is down to the synaptic pruning process. Sometimes it doesn't make leaps and bounds, sometimes it doesn't take effect. And that's the point that we, we have a lack or an abundance of synaptic pruning. It's, it's a freaking. Our synaptic pruning is our lottery.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Right. And that's why the spectrum is so vast and so different and, and from like severely disabled to, you know, mildly inconvenienced at times.

[Simon Scott]

You know, that's one way of putting it.

[Jordan James]

I mean that, that's like the nicest

[Simon Scott]

way that I mean that sugar coat in it. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

It's like to today when I'm playing my Doom Revelations dlc, I'm mildly inconvenienced by the fact that. But you know, I have like a Tourette's thing in my hand and I keep shooting.

[Simon Scott]

You have to go and use the loo while you're mid mission or something.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I'm like, oh, demand avoidance. Yeah. So occasionally I'm mildly inconvenienced and sometimes I'm very disabled by it. But, but that, that's the point is that we are so different and until the teenage years, you have no idea what kind of neurodivergent person you are now the parent of. But if you don't prepare yourself and your child by putting boundaries in place when they're young, when the first round of synaptic pruning is going. So I'm talking One, two, three years old. Right. No matter the type of neurodivergent person they will end up being, they will be a better version of that neurodivergent person. If you have put those boundaries in place and boundaries don't include smacking your kids, that's abuse. Boundaries are, you're not going to do that. And if you don't do that, this is the punishment. Now you don't have to use the word punishment. I think there is different. These are the consequences. I think punishment's always a bit hard, but at the end of the day it's. If you murder someone and you go to court and you go to prison, that is, that's consequences. But that's also a punishment. That is a punishment by law. So hiding from the word punishment, I don't, I also don't think is going to help. But you know, I say consequences when you're a kid, punishment when you're a teenager and then you know, you get them. It's like, it's like, it's like, like step by step by step. You know, you don't just go in there hard on a two year old and be like, what are you doing? You should be more grown up than this. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so at 2 or, or whatever their behavior is at 2, because everyone's different. I also think that, that the understanding that neurodivergent people are always going to be younger, you know, they're always going to act younger. So thing things like, you know, cuddly toys or content like cartoons or whatever and you think, oh, they're too young for that. Don't ever turn around, go, you're too young for that. That's, that that's harmful. That's harmful. When I talk about boundaries, I'm not talking about boundaries to convenience you in the eyes of other people. That your 12 year old wants to wear a bluey T shirt, that's fine. You should allow a 12 year old to wear a Bluey T shirt. You shouldn't be like, oh, aren't you?

[Simon Scott]

Hey, they've got some great merch from Bluey.

[Jordan James]

You know the movies coming out? Oh no, Paw Patrol. That was the one I was.

[Simon Scott]

Paw Patrol, Yeah, Paw Patrol.

[Jordan James]

That shit's awesome for, for kids. I mean, I'm a SpongeBob through and through. If we're talking about neurodivergent cartoons, I'm

[Simon Scott]

a Scooby Doo guy myself.

[Jordan James]

Oh, I love Scooby Doo. It's just come out on Netflix. I'm gonna be watching all the Way through the old Scooby Doo's. But anyway, I digress. But it's, it's understanding what boundaries need to be put in place. And that, that, that comes with experience that. I mean some kids you'd be like, don't you do that. And they'd be like, okay, yeah, there might be people pleasers.

[Simon Scott]

I was one of those kids.

[Jordan James]

Or some kids might be like demand avoidant and very, very difficult. Demand avoidance is PDA is very, very difficult. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. And I do see this, and I'm seeing this more and more because of screenshots is like lazy parenting. Yeah, lazy, lazy parenting. I was on my kid is screaming. Here, have a scream.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, dude. I see the amount of kids that I see walking around supermarkets with like iPads in the trolleys. Yeah, I bet they're like 2, 3. And it does worry.

[Jordan James]

It's not parenting where it's just like

[Simon Scott]

not stick, stick screen in front of them and let them watch Coca melon or something.

[Jordan James]

That ain't parenting. I'm not saying that if you have a neurodivergent child and that will actually help your shopping experience because it distracts them. It's like a stim for them. Maybe, maybe that works. But if that is your go to move for every time your kid is being in a difficult situation, that's not healthy. Because being with your child and helping them through that difficult situation by getting them to confront that difficult situation, that's parenting. You have to put the fucking effort in. That's parenting. Parent isn't shooting at a child and going, bye. That's being a turtle. Don't be a turtle. Don't, don't, don't lay the egg off and let the turtle like figure it out. Yeah, because specific. The world is the seagull. The world will eat your child alive because you're not paying attention. Because having a kid is not an accessory. Having a kid isn't a fashion statement. Having a kid is not content as it is for so many people. Look at what my kids doing. I don't. I saw a makeup tutorial by a 3 year old. I wanted to lose my like what?

[Simon Scott]

Oh, dude. What was the advert that was on, by the way?

[Jordan James]

I only saw that because it was in this video that was showing what you. Jen Alpha is happening.

[Simon Scott]

What was the thing that I saw

[Jordan James]

that seeking out content.

[Simon Scott]

There's an ad that was like this girl walking down the street with her mom and she's holding her mom's hand. And every stranger that walked past goes, oh, I saw your dance rehearsal, well done. And it's like, be careful what you put on of your kids online. And it shows, like all these strangers walking past, commenting on the kid and the kids, like, how do all these people know everything about me? And it's like, because your mum posts absolutely everything that you do online.

[Jordan James]

Also, I thought we have a world where consent is a thing and then suddenly there is no such thing as consent because a 3 year old can't consent.

[Simon Scott]

It's a boundaries over also for the parents as well as the kids.

[Jordan James]

Parental boundaries. Boundary yourself. Like literally. Your kid is not an accessory. You're. That is a human that you are now not in charge of, by the way. You're not in charge of. You're responsible. That you're responsible for. You chose to have a kid, you chose to have that responsibility. Now in my opinion, there are too many people that are not responsible enough to have children that seem to just have them anyway. And again, that's not a now thing, that's a, that's always been the case.

[Simon Scott]

What was it in Victorian times? Children got to like 3, 4 years old and then they were allowed a name so that because they were like, oh, that's the third child. If he gets to five and survives, we shall name it him.

[Jordan James]

Well, I mean, we've got to call him something when he gets trapped down in the mine. Timmy.

[Aura Advertiser/Other]

Timmy.

[Simon Scott]

Come4son is trapped in the mill machine again.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, number four. We just name them like, but it's

[Simon Scott]

a Horrible Histories reference. That, that's what I remember.

[Jordan James]

Dr. Zeus. Thing one and thing two. Just child one and child two.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Mess.

[Jordan James]

The yellow haired one.

[Simon Scott]

No, yeah, there are, it's is. I, yeah, there are a lot of people where it's like, I, I know people that they go, oh, I'm thinking of having a kid. And I just go, why?

[Jordan James]

But I, what I, what I was saying was like when, when I was putting boundaries in place and, and I, I felt if anything my boundaries were too harsh. So they, I wouldn't say they're like, I mean, obviously I was doing the opposite to what my parents do and I was a very active parent, so I was always doing stuff with my kids. I was always in their life and because I was always in their life, I knew everything they were doing. And I'm not a helicopter parent of just like, oh, you know, hovering around. But I'll give you a perfect example of my parenting versus everybody else's parenting at the time that I. But my kids were little kids. So Simon was about 8, 9 years old, and he's playing football.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

Football.

[Jordan James]

That's soccer, if you're listening, in the US Soccer. It's that thing that.

[Contentful/Aura Advertiser]

That.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

That.

[Jordan James]

That Trump basically ruined or FIFA ruined. And he got kicked in the face with a ball. It happens. It wasn't deliberate. It was, you know, he's a defender. He got in the way.

[Simon Scott]

That's what your face is for.

[Jordan James]

That is what your face is. Is fair game.

[Simon Scott]

An extension of, you can't use your

[Jordan James]

hands, but you can use your face. So he used his face inadvertently, and his nose started bleeding.

[Simon Scott]

Yep. As it does now.

[Jordan James]

My parenting thing is that he comes over, I'm like, are you all right? And he's like, oh, yeah, my nose is bleeding. I was like, yeah, I can see that. Are you all right? And he's like, oh, yeah. I'm just, you know, because I didn't care that his nose is bleeding. That's what happens. Noses bleed. Noses bleed. If you sneeze too much or you pick your nose, noses bleed.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, I was picking my nose on a bus once, and we went over a speed bump, and I got a nosebleed. There you go.

[Jordan James]

You're not dying from a nosebleed. There's a nosebleed. I care. Do you have concussion? How. How is your brain in this moment? So I'm checking him and asking him questions like, you know, and all these mums run over because I'm the only dad there, apparently, and they're just like, oh, is he okay? Is he okay? Yeah, yeah, he's fine.

[Ashley Dupuis]

He's just.

[Jordan James]

He's just got beer nose. I'm just checking him, you know, for. For the concussion. And then, oh, my God, his nose is bleeding. His nose. I can clearly see his nose is bleeding. You don't need to tell me this. And they proceeded to then try and physically put his head back. And I went, what are you doing? And they went, oh, you've got to stop the bleeding. I went, no, you've got to let the blood come out.

[Simon Scott]

You got to push it out.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

You.

[Jordan James]

If you put your head back, you're basically putting the blood back into his body. It's. It's so bad to put your head back. You can pinch the nose. You can do that if you really want.

[Simon Scott]

I was always a sticky head over a sink and ride it out, sort of.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, he's. He's outside, he's on grass. You know, he's not on the pitch. He's off to the Side. I mean, just bleed it out, man. And that's what he was doing because that's what I taught him. It's not. Not compassionate because I give a shit. I'm like, are you okay? You know, he's. He's got tears in his eyes and stuff.

[Simon Scott]

And, oh, yeah, it's a sore one.

[Jordan James]

And I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ. You know, And I'm like, are you okay? So I'm asking the question. I'm letting him tell me how he is rather than just assuming that I've now got to. To some, you know, do things for him. So it's not that I don't care. It's that I actually want him to get through this, you know, himself. But I'm there as a safety net in case there is something more serious than I'm the adult and maybe I need to take him to the hospital. I mean, that boy has had. I think he's on four or five surgeries now.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, wow.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, like, that's a.

[Simon Scott]

That's five more than I've had.

[Jordan James]

And this is not through. Like, I didn't care about him. So the first one, I think he. He basically had like a cyst in his ear that just. It just happens. And he had to get it removed and he was very young, and if he hadn't got it removed, it could have got worse. So, again, nothing to do with parenting.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, Just got dealt with.

[Jordan James]

Another thing was we fed him really well. Like, we weren't into, like, sweets and things.

[Simon Scott]

Free range and organic.

[Jordan James]

No, not. Not like that. But it was all home cooking.

[Simon Scott]

Yes.

[Sophie James]

Right.

[Jordan James]

We. We did a good job. But when he used to go around to my mum's when she was done in our lives, and like, she would just feed them all sorts of sweets and sugars and. And just like, it's a grandparent thing. I mean, I can't really blame her for that. That's. That's not something.

[Simon Scott]

Universal grandparent thing.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it was. And. And his teeth got bad. Now, I would say that the whole cleaning the teeth thing is very difficult. It was difficult to get him to clean his teeth. That was a hard thing to do. And some days we were like, I just can't be bothered with that. That was one of my regrets, that I wasn't hard on him about cleaning his teeth, but I have to admit, I don't always clean my teeth every day, so. But essentially he went in for. He had bad teeth and he had to have some teeth taken out. All baby teeth, by the way, like, they grew back. His teeth are fine, but they're a baby teeth. That was a surgery. Then when he was at school, he was in the playground in primary school, and he fell over and he, you know, playing around with another kid. They were just chasing each other around the playground. He fell over and he broke his finger. Then we, you know, took him to hospital, and they had to, like, you know, put bandages in the head to, like. He had to have surgery and reset it straight to reset it. Yeah. Again, nothing to do with parenting. And the last two was he as an adult. In this year, he was doing sports. One of he had an injury from climbing, and then he had an injury when he was doing football. He got badly tackled, and he had a torn ACL in his knee.

[Simon Scott]

Ouch.

[Jordan James]

And another torn tendon in his knee. And he had to have two separate surgeries. He's now recovering at this moment in time from the second surgery. And he did. He went and did the surgery by himself. You know, at the time he first figured out there was something wrong with his Knee, he was 23. And he went to the doctor by himself. And I'm always there. I'm always there in the background, like, do you need my help? And my kids most of the time are like, no, no, I've got this. He went to the doctor, he figured out what was wrong. He went through his scans. You know, his girlfriend went with him. She. She was his support through all of this. I wanted to be his support, but I was like, well, no, this is how it is now, is that she's the support. Like, Sylvia's my support, and now she's the support. And as a parent, it's kind of hard to let that go in a weird way. But also, you're very happy to let that go.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, well, that's because you're growing up.

[Jordan James]

Exactly. He's growing up. And she's a great partner. She's a great human. Like I said, me and her just watching the Minions movie together was hilarious because I bought two cuddly toy Minions, and instead of her going, well, I'm not having that, she was like, I want that one.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, nice. Like, good energy.

[Jordan James]

This, this. Oh, yeah. Absolutely love that girl. Absolutely love her. And, you know, he went and did the surgeries, and he's recovering and he's doing everything, and if he needs me, I'm here. And exactly the same as when he was, like, 8 or 9 years old, he gets hit in the face with a ball. If he needs me, I'm here. I'm there for him, but because I was able to just be like, no, he'll, you'll get through this. You'll, you'll do this. It's fine. But as soon as you like over coddle them, it's, they're not going to learn to do things for themselves. They're not going to learn to be independent. And I know that's hard from a parent. I'm not sitting here going to parents. Oh, you're a terrible parent because you're doing this. Because it's not terrible parenting. At the time you think it's good. At the time you think you're doing the right thing. But when they're adults, you realize that is not the right thing. Because you could have a, an adult kid who's just sitting around playing video games all day and doesn't work, doesn't clean up, doesn't give a shit and you're just running around after them and it feels like, you know that episode of south park where they're all sitting around playing World of Warcraft.

[Simon Scott]

Mom.

[Jordan James]

And Carmen's mom just puts a big one and he just shits in the bucket. And I'm like, that's mollycoddle parenting. That's what that is. It's just whatever.

[Simon Scott]

Carmen's a great example of that.

[Jordan James]

Cartman is the perfect example. You don't want to come Molly coddles.

[Simon Scott]

You don't want a Cartman, everybody.

[Jordan James]

No, you don't want a Cartman. That is what you will get. You will get a Cartman. Because I, I remember like there was this little girl, same age as Sophie. She was like Sophie's friend and the way she talked to her mum, she literally this like. I think we're talking about year seven, so I can't remember. I don't know how old that is. Like, yes.

[Simon Scott]

12, 13 maybe.

[Jordan James]

I don't think it's even that, man.

[Simon Scott]

Maybe a 10, 11.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Simon Scott]

It's been a long time since I was that age.

[Jordan James]

But she literally told her mum to off and her mum was like, oh, you shouldn't use that language.

[Simon Scott]

That's soft hands. You go soft hands now. Dude, I, I remember the. I remember the first time I ever spoke back to my mom and my dad gave me this look and I was like, oh yeah, dude, I used to play. So when I was like younger playing football. Finished with this story and then we'll wrap up. But my dad was the coach when I was like 8 or 9 years old. And I was good at football. But every Time there was a substitute that happened. It was always me. And I always used to be like, why are you always subbing me off, dad? You're. You're the coach. You're meant to be. And he went, I'm setting an example that nobody's bigger than the coach. He says, that's football. I'm like, right, okay, that's fine. And he always used to joke that I was like a James Milner sort of player and that I could play in lots of positions, but I didn't excel in any of them. And I was, wow, like a good gadget player. But my dad was real. But he was real with me.

[Jordan James]

I don't know if that's okay. He was holding your kids up a little bit. Might be a little bit.

[Simon Scott]

But that was my dad.

[Jordan James]

It's old school Northerner. That's what that is. Oh, yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Basically, yeah. It's not Billy Elliot's dad, but. But then I ended up going to play for another team, and there was a lad who played on that team whose dad was the coach. And he would shout things to him on the pitch and the kid would turn around and go tell his dad to off, like, in front of everybody, like, constantly. Like, there were times where he got subbed off and he literally, like, walked past his dad and, like, threw his boots at him and stormed off and got in the car. And we were what, 10, 11, 12. I remember it vividly, absolutely vividly. The lad was called Adam and he was a dick. Like, I was like, wow, he must have some real at home if that's what he's behaving like in front of 50, 60 people at a football pitch on a Sunday morning. Just blatantly just, like, would take his boots off and throw him at his dad and throw his jacket at him. And he used to call his dad by his first name. He never called him dad. He'd always blah Andy. And this kid was like, 10, 11. Like, that's not. Not great. Not great. Weird situation. It's like, I've only ever experienced one thing like that, but I can see it now. And throwing his boots at him.

[Jordan James]

I think to summarize. I think to summarize boundaries with, like, aggressive behavior, boundaries with disrespectful behavior. But those, those boundaries should never be physical. They should never. You should never shout, you should never scream at your kids. Should never. Because that's also abuse you. You do. You just have to be like, okay, this, these are the consequences to your actions. Like, whatever those consequences are, I'm not here to tell you what those consequences are like. It's individual. Like, you. You have to figure that out. Right? Like, I had to figure that out. Well. Well, one of my consequences were if you about. I'm turning the Internet.

[Simon Scott]

Every kid's different, right?

[Jordan James]

This, you. I literally just unplugged the roof. This is the old school. Taking your phone away. I'm paying for that phone. That's my phone. That phone that you're holding belongs to me. I paid for it. I pay the contract on it. That's my phone. You are borrowing my phone. And if you talk to me like I'm an. You don't get to borrow you, I'm gonna take my phone back. That phone doesn't belong to you. In fact, nothing.

[Contentful/Aura Advertiser]

You.

[Jordan James]

You have your clothes, your tv, your bedroom. You're. You're just. You're borrowing that. That's all mine. And until you pay for stuff yourself, you can't say that it's yours. And because I was like that, my kids went and worked from a very young age and bought and paid things for themselves. My son had a phone contract that he paid for himself when he was 18.

[Simon Scott]

I get that.

[Jordan James]

And he was like, now this is my phone and you can't take it away from me. I was a damn right I can't take it away from you.

[Simon Scott]

And I was the same, to be fair.

[Jordan James]

But I can turn the Internet off.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, I was a bit like that dude, I bought. Yeah, no, I. I was like that with an Xbox. My mum kept taking the Xbox off me. A very, very similar sort of explanation that you gave. And then when I was like, 17, I started doing cleaning. Oh, no, I was younger than that would have been about 15. I spent one summer where I was a cleaner at my dad's office and at the end of the summer, I bought myself an Xbox.

[Jordan James]

I really like your parents. We need to hang. We need to hang. But, yeah, that's it. And people was, oh, it's. It's that. That's mean. Look, trust me, from person who was genuinely abused as a child, like proper abuse, but didn't have boundaries. I was abused without boundaries. And then I brought my kids up, you know, trying not to abuse them as best I possibly could from being a traumatized child, but I put those boundaries in place. And then my kids, literally from teenagers, were working and Sophie went and did university and moved to Cornwall. I was independent. And rented her own properties and did. And applied for her own grants and she did everything herself. And now she started for you and you're older. Exactly. And I've always said I am there as a safety net if you need me. But if you need me, you're gonna. You're gonna hear about it. I'll be like, you remember that time I did that thing for you? No, I'm just. Okay. I hate that, by the way. I'm just joking. I never use me doing nice things for my kids as fodder in an argument later. Because I just think that. I think. I think if you're going to do nice things for your kids, do nice for things for your kids. Don't. Don't use it as. As like, collateral. Yeah. I'd be like, oh, yeah. Do you remember I did that thing for you? How dare you speak to me like that? It's. No.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. It doesn't work. You don't. You don't do things for your kids as ammunition.

[Jordan James]

Also, later on, just quickly, before we go, this is very, very important. This is where I think I failed. My son is in the years especially being neurodivergent when he has alexithymia and he didn't always want to be around us, which is a very neurodivergent, normal thing. I think because of my rsd, I would take it super personally that he somehow hated me.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And I get that because with my dad, I was desperate for his attention. And then I was always spending time with my brother, and then he passed away. And so I never really had a father figure that I could spend time with. So I wanted to. Or learn from. Yeah. So I felt like when I had a son, I wanted to be that father figure that was, you know, in his life that he could come to and I would like. I mean, my kids used to call me like a TV dad that I always had like a. Oh, what have we learned today, kids? You know, that's the friends we made along the way.

[Sophie James]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Or cut the end of he man sort of thing. And. Or Carl at the end of South Park. So there's always. What did we learn today?

[Simon Scott]

I think we learned something today, guys.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. I was. I was the TV dad. And that. That completely made sense because most of my positive role models were from television. Yeah. So I was acting like them. That. That was my. That was my go to thing. But I, like, certainly when he was older and especially during COVID he would just lock himself in his bedroom. So when he did come down, instead of. Instead of me saying, oh, it's really great to see you, son, you know, and then just chatting with him I'd be like, oh, creatures, come out of his lair.

[Simon Scott]

Nice of you to join us. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And then what he told me, and I'll never forget this, and I guarantee you, if you're that parent that's doing what I was doing, you want to hit. You want to listen to this? He just said to me, goes, you know, the main reason I don't come out of my room is because when I do, you do that.

[Simon Scott]

And I was like, oh, good parenting lesson there, though. Very good parenting lesson.

[Jordan James]

But then I think he was able to tell me that and communicate that to me because I bought him up with his own independence, because I brought him up to. To speak up and be independent. And that was. That was a big kick in the face for me. And I just apologized and I was like, I will never do that again. And ever since then, it has been a lot better.

[Simon Scott]

I think that's one of the things that I'm so grateful about with the way that my parents raised me is they taught me from a very young age that I have boundaries as well. In the.

[Unidentified Male (possibly a friend or co-host)]

If.

[Simon Scott]

If I. If my mum said something to me and she upset me and I said that upset me, she didn't tell me to get a thick skin. She was like, I'm sorry that that upset you. You know, there was an accountability on both ends. I think that's one of the things that my parents absolutely nailed.

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Is that when my dad shouted at me and took it too far, he would apologize and say, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. That was too much.

[Jordan James]

And that's exactly what I did. I think I'm very, very similar to your dad in. In that way, is that I would get upset. I would have meltdowns.

[Simon Scott]

Like, oh, yeah, my parents are autistic. They would have. They would have meltdown.

[Jordan James]

I would have meltdowns. But I would always apologize and take responsibility for my actions, and I wouldn't.

[Simon Scott]

You're not above the law of. You know, I think I've experienced that with other people when I've seen parents is that they have that do as I say, not as I do. And they do behaviors that they wouldn't want their kids to do. And then not only do they not apologize for it, they double down and go, well, I don't have to because I'm the parent. And, yeah, I'm not. I'm not a fan of that. But I'll tell you what, man, I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been really interesting. And as somebody who's not a parent and probably isn't. I very much, very, very much doubt that I ever will be a parent. I'm contributing to the declining birth rate. You are.

[Jordan James]

You're a dog daddy.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, I'm a dog daddy. I have a child and she's a

[Jordan James]

9 year old in place, slightly over

[Simon Scott]

weight Puck, my little piggy. But yes, yeah, it's been an interesting conversation because obviously it's very easy to have an opinion when you have no experience. So yeah, thanks for sharing your experience today, mate. So that's been your episode of the neurodivergent Experience this week. We will be back on the Autistic Culture Podcast Network next week and check out your feed tomorrow because we have another super spicy hot topic.

[Jordan James]

Happy Birthday.

[Chase Sapphire Card Advertiser]

Yeah, it's my birthday.

[Simon Scott]

Happy Birthday. All right, bye everybody. Be kind, be safe. Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparked something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights. Insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening. And until the next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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[Simon Scott]

acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jordan James]

Hi, I'm Jesse Klein. And I'm Liz Feldman. And we are back for another season of Here to Make Friends, which is our podcast that is really just a long con to invite amazing guests onto our show and trick them into being our friends. Great guests like Linda Cardellini, Jeff Hiller, Paulina Porizkova, other people. And we'll also give you a sneak peek into what our text thread looks like. The kind of stuff we write about

[Simon Scott]

like should I buy this?

[Jordan James]

Am I a unicorn? Do you think I'm a unicorn?

[Simon Scott]

Follow here to make friends wherever you

[Jordan James]

get your podcasts and watch us on YouTube.

[Simon Scott]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Thanks for listening. Support autistic led media through Autistic Culture plus and enjoy bonus content, early episodes and ad free listening. Visit autisticculture supercast.com to learn more.