← The Neurodivergent Experience
The Neurodivergent Experience
Young, Neurodivergent & Self-Employed: Building a Career That Fits Your Brain
01:18:42
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- [00:02]
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- [01:13]
Simon Scott
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:21]
Chase Sapphire Preferred Advertiser
I'm Monica Reinagle, nutritionist, author and host of the Nutrition Diva Podcast. We dig into the questions that you are actually asking. If it's okay to drink coffee on an empty stomach Whether it's possible to retrain your sweet tooth which ultra processed foods you might actually want to include in your diet. We take a closer look at diet trends, fact check sketchy claims and track down the science so that you can feel more confident about what's on your plate. New episodes are released every Wednesday. Find Nutrition Diva on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening and be sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode.
- [02:07]
Simon Scott
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience Podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community. Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience. I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend. I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. And hello to any new listeners that are joining us. I'm Simon Scott and I'm not with the Mr. Jordan James today. He's taking a little break from the show, not for any nefarious reasons, more so that his work schedule wouldn't allow us to record together this week. So I have a wonderful guest that I'm about to introduce. But just before I do that, thank you for everybody. That's been a huge support for the Autistic Culture Podcast Network. We had the launch last week and there's new shows that are out that I'm very, very proud of. So if you're somebody who enjoys conversations between neurodivergent people or hearing info dumps about special interests or even advocacy and discussing the, the medical side of it, there's lots of brilliant shows out there across the network and I'm really pleased that you're enjoying them. And if you haven't already, go and check them out. But anyway, less about the housekeeping and more about the neurodivergent experience. I am joined today by the wonderful Sophie James, who is Jordan's daughter. Hello.
- [04:14]
Sophie James
Hello, hello, hello, hello.
- [04:18]
Simon Scott
Thank you for joining me and for stepping in. So one of the things that I would love to talk to you about today, Sophie, is you are doing some unbelievable advocacy which has now turned into like an entrepreneurship, which I'm very proud about because it's always amazing to hear neurodivergent people doing it their way and being a big success of it. So I thought today we could talk about young neurodivergent entrepreneurship and building a career that fits your brain. Because many traditional ideas about work and careers, Sophie, and success, I think anyway, are designed around neurotypical expectations. Yeah, you know, it's if you're not first, you're last and you've got to outwork everybody and, you know, you've got to be loyal to companies and all these sorts of stereotypes that were kind of force fed from a really young age. And I wish I could kind of go back as a young neurodivergent. I mean, I'm 32, but you're, you make me feel quite old. But I am increasingly leaning towards people creating their own path through entrepreneurship and advocacy or coaching and, you know, content creation. And it's basically about, like, creating a flexible career that works with your brain. So could you tell us a little bit about yourself for those that haven't listened to previous episodes that you've been in and how you first became involved in advocacy and entrepreneurship?
- [05:45]
Sophie James
Yes, absolutely. So I'm obviously Sophie and I am 22 now, which is kind of crazy because I still feel like I'm like, 18.
- [05:56]
Simon Scott
You'll never grow out of that. Yeah, I'm 32. I got engaged the other week, and the whole time I was just like, I'm just a sweet little boy.
- [06:03]
Sophie James
I'm too young. I'm too young. So, yeah. And I found out that I was autistic when I was 13 years old. And that's because we found out that my dad was autistic. I mean, my dad are very similar people. And even though, you know, I was a young girl, I still was just so similar to him. And we actually kind of went on Google and we were like, autistic girls.
- [06:35]
Simon Scott
I was like, oh, yeah, they do exist. Did Google come back and go, did you mean autistic boy?
- [06:42]
Sophie James
Yeah, it was like, but, you know, I associated with everything, you know, so perfectly. And we were like, oh, okay. You know, I think I'm autistic. And when I got into year seven especially, I did really struggle. And I found, you know, going to school, making friends, being in that environment that was just constantly changing, very challenging. So it was such a relief to realize, like, that I had just a different neurotype. And that might have been the reason why, you know, I found, like, that place, like, school just wasn't the environment for me. And I was struggling more than others. But, you know, I didn't get actually diagnosed until I was 17 years old. But, you know, we just went along with the fact that I was autistic because we were like, well, I know myself. It's pretty obvious.
- [07:30]
Simon Scott
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, like, a lot of people are doing that now, aren't they? Like, I'm a big believer in that. You know, self diagnosis is as valid as anybody telling you, you know better than anybody what you are. You live in there. Right. But so many people have to wait. I had to wait three years. And you do. There is a lot of doubt in that time.
- [07:51]
Sophie James
Absolutely. I always say to people, I think if you associate with a community and it's a neurodivergent community more than neurotypical people, then you know yourself better than anyone. And I think waiting to just find out like get a piece of paper. Telling you about what you know about yourself is obviously helpful to as evidence, but you should be allowed to know yourself and associate with, you know, what community you like. And I mean, we went to the school and we said, like, look, we think I'm autistic. And luckily my head of year was actually my geography teacher. She straight up witnessed me in, like, my geography class. She was like, okay, everyone, let's get into groups. Straight up, like, sat on a table on my own. I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to be in a group. And she was like, okay. So she was like, yes, okay, I understand this, this makes sense. But there were people who had more needs than me and so they decided to just treat me as if I was autistic without the diagnosis, which I was very grateful for. And I didn't get loads of accommodation, but there was more understanding. And especially towards the end of secondary school, I basically. It was a cupboard. That sounds terrible. I didn't like, stay in the cupboard, but there was a. There was like a cupboard in a new build that they had that also had a desk and it had a window or maybe didn't have a window, but I just sat and did my work in it because I just couldn't cope with being class. It's like people just wanted to set things on fire and just argue with the teacher. And I was like, I'm not here for that. Let me just learn my lesson and then I'm done with the day. So it was just easy, instead of me missing out on school, to just go and sit on my own and do the work because I was always happy to do work. I loved learning. I was all good with that. I wanted to be a marine biologist, so I was like, you know, I need to get on with this. So I got diagnosed at 17 because I was in college and I was doing biology and chemistry and photography and I needed the extra time. I needed the support and more understanding without always having to prove myself. I mean, literally, the people, you know, at the. The people who were giving me the accommodations. One of the ladies did say that I probably wasn't autistic because I could make eye contact with her.
- [10:19]
Simon Scott
Oh.
- [10:20]
Sophie James
So I was like, okay, it looks like we're going to need pie the paper. So we got the diagnosis. Obviously I came back as being autistic and. But at this point in my life, I was really struggling and I was struggling to go in. I did get given another room, but, you know, my anxiety Was very intense. I felt like there was no one else like me because in my head, I was so capable. Yet why could I just not go in? Like, why could I just not go into lesson? Why was my anxiety so high and intense in lesson that I just would refuse to go, even though I wanted to do so well and I was capable of it? It was such an internal struggle. I was struggling with the people. I was struggling in a relationship. It just. I was, you know, I hit a proper low. So, you know, my parents were really good, and they actually got me a single, like, therapy session with, you know, a therapist just to kind of maybe talk about my feelings and things. And she said to me, she said, look, I think you really need community. Because the one thing about me is what I am naturally fairly skilled in, and I'm happy to admit this is I am always trying to improve myself. I'm always trying to improve things around me and how could I do it better and what's going on? And I'm just very analytical within myself. Like some people maths, me myself, I'm trying to figure out me and figure out other people all the time. So, you know, I had that one session, she was like, I think you need community. And I was like, okay, done. Let's do this. Let's find this. So I made my Facebook page, which was actually supposed to be a Facebook page about being more like, eco friendly and saving hedgehogs because, like, I really wanted to save more hedgehogs at the time. So that was my little special interest. But I ended up just kind of ended up talking about, you know, my experiences and, you know, who. What I'm like as a neurodivergent young woman. And so many people suddenly were like, that's my daughter. That's me. That's like my son. And, you know, I suddenly felt like I wasn't alone anymore. And, you know, I'm fairly good with writing. I've always loved writing and making up stories and poems when I was younger. So I just wrote my experiences and my feelings very openly and authentically. And it just grew. It grew into something really beautiful. And because I was so authentic and real, but I was that. But I was also. My outlook on neurodivergence was always. Although it did just sound like I was being really negative about myself, my outlook was always. And I was raised with the fact that, like, being different is okay. Like, being different isn't wrong, you know, it is. You should be. It's okay to be different. You can be different. Difference is amazing. And just sometimes these environments aren't for us. So it's not necessarily that we're the problem, but they're the problem.
- [13:34]
Simon Scott
Oh, yeah, no, there's so many things that you've touched on there that are resonating with me, Sophie. And you know, my own experience at school and university wasn't down to a lack of effort. It was down to a lack of accommodation. And the environment just not suit in my brain at the time. And like he was saying about maths, geography, I can point out on a map and I can walk you to a certain place, but I'm not interested in rocks. And I used to be a pain in the ass in those classes because I just used to disengage and you know, I was, you know, my parents always used to joke on, on parents evenings, they could tell whether I was good in a class or a teacher liked me within three seconds of sitting down in front of them. And you know what you were sort of saying there about your, your Facebook page as well. I've experienced that in a huge abundance within the last couple of years through this podcast and also through the work that I do with the Autistic Culture Podcast Network. And so many neurodivergent people aren't looking to be fixed. They're looking to just feel seen and to feel connection. And one of the things that I've loved about this show, making it with your dad and, and like having guests like you on and other people, is the messages that we get from people where even though we just have conversations and I'm just honest about my life, I actually feel like I'm helping people. And I, I, that was the goal. But you don't really know how to do that. But just by being real and going, yeah, I'm a guy who's 32, I'm engaged, I run a business, but I'm also autistic. And every time I read an email, I feel like a lion's walked into the room and I want to cry. But I can still function and I still have a really full life with love and friendship and special interests and all of this sort of stuff. But there are days where I do have a really tough time and it's been really helpful speaking to people like you and your dad and realizing that I'm not an alien. I'm not on my own. And yeah, it's tough, but I think it's even tougher when you are that person and you're trying to figure it all out and you see other People seemingly figuring it out.
- [15:51]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [15:52]
Simon Scott
And then you go from the school environment to the work environment, and it's bonkers. I mean, how did you find that transition from university going into the working world? Because I know your generation's having a real tough time of getting into the, you know, into the workspace.
- [16:08]
Sophie James
Yeah. So when I finished uni, I was think, you know, I did a marine biology degree because it sounds kind of ridiculous, but I just like sea turtles. Ever since I was five years old, I just like sea turtles.
- [16:23]
Simon Scott
I was like, do what you love. You'll never work a day in your life, is what they say.
- [16:27]
Sophie James
My dad was. My dad took me to the Sea Life center when I was a kid. I just fell in love with them. And I was like, yeah, we're gonna do that. So literally all my life, all suffering, I felt through education was for a purpose, and it was for sea turtles. And so I did my marine biology degree, and I was like, ah, I don't really care about much else about this when it's not about sea turtles. But there was a lot of it I did care about, you know, I really care about climate, like understanding the climate and climate change and sustainability that, like, these are all things I'm really interested in. So. So I got it. And so I was like, okay, I need to go and do something with sea turtles now. But that is difficult because nowadays you. It is actually like a really big field, and it is very competitive, which doesn't make it impossible, but I think you really, really need to love it. And I think I was maybe convincing myself I loved it more than I did. Or maybe I was convincing myself this was something I could do as opposed to something I just love and. Whereas actually, my real skills, and always have been, literally ever since I was a little kid, was understanding people and empathizing with them and analyzing situations, and that is my skill and. But I was trying to force marine biology and animals to be my skill.
- [17:56]
Simon Scott
It's even harder as well when, like, you've done it for so long and you know your potential, and then you're like, well, if I don't do anything with it, it's a waste.
- [18:05]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [18:06]
Simon Scott
It felt like that's a nasty feedback loop to get into.
- [18:09]
Sophie James
I think when I was doing my dissertation and I was just kind of, like, so confused about it. I was like, I'm not generally that confused about things I really care about. And I think maybe I'm trying to convince myself of something. But I was like, I'm just, you know, I'M so glad I went to uni. I wouldn't take it back. You know, it gave me so many skills. It gave me. So it's very good information anyway, to understand. And it's definitely something I could still do. Like, I want in my life to volunteer, but basically I went on, I got an internship, and I also applied to do some volunteering that I paid for. And I went and did them, and they were not what I. They did not work for me in any way. You know, one of them. The volunteering was probably not the best for me to put myself forward for because we had to, like, literally camp out in the middle of the night and, like, watch. Do, like, shifts watching sea turtles lay their eggs in the middle of the night and basically, like, prevent poachers from getting them. And I actually really do not like being that unhygienic. And I think some people are absolutely fine with it. I know my boyfriend was much better at it than me, but as soon as I got there and I had to sleep with sand and sweat all over my body, there was a bucket as a shower. And you were only allowed a bucket a week and then a week.
- [19:49]
Simon Scott
Yep, the economy on buckets has gone up.
- [19:53]
Sophie James
It's. You know, I respect that that's what they had to do. I think they could make a couple adjustments to allow people at least like me, that have real sensory differences to do it. But I literally went there and I had to be put on the camp for my first night, and it got dark and I hadn't set. No one told me to set anything up yet. And so, like, you weren't allowed any lights either to, like, because that would bother the sea turtles. So I couldn't see anything. I didn't know who any of these people were. I was in the middle of nowhere. I also had, like, this is just stupid information that I'm telling at this point, but I had Invisalign and like, you need to wash your invisible braces, like, before you go to sleep. And I was like, I need to wash my teeth. I need to brush my braces.
- [20:46]
Simon Scott
This is a really difficult thing for people that are routine based on.
- [20:51]
Sophie James
Yeah, I am very routine based. And it came to a point where I was just like, all my stuff was everywhere. I was very close to panicking, but I was like, okay, I could do this. I can do this. Then you also had to use a bucket of water to flush the toilet. And I. Yeah, you're not doing a
- [21:13]
Simon Scott
very good job of being a travel agent for this entrepreneurship I did it
- [21:17]
Sophie James
and I missed, and water went everywhere in the toilet and I couldn't see anything. And I just ended up having a meltdown and I was just crying and I was, like, having a genuine panic attack slash meltdown. I was like, I don't know. I can't do this. I can't do this. And they had to get, like, random people in the middle of the night to drive me back to the town where luckily my partner was and he met up with me. I couldn't stay in the accommodation that they did provide. That was, like, inside, because for me, it was very unhygienic. And I just couldn't. I couldn't do it. I was not prepared mentally for it. And I did a few. I did release a sea turtle into the sea, which was the most amazing. You know, that was incredible. I absolutely loved that, and I really enjoyed that part. And I could have definitely, like, stood there and, you know, advocated for sea turtles or told people information about sea turtles, because I. I do really enjoy that, and it makes me feel very happy. But I. I couldn't be there, so I had to leave early. And that was quite demoralizing. It made me feel sad. But I, I, you know, I understand my neurodivergence. This is a journey that I've been on myself. I know it was not my fault. It was not about me. It just did not work for my brain. That's absolutely okay. That experience was not for me. It was not a failure. It was a redirection. And then so I went to Egypt on for an internship, and I realized that I should have got swimming lessons before I went.
- [22:48]
Simon Scott
You can't swim?
- [22:49]
Sophie James
I can swim, but I was gonna say, this is.
- [22:53]
Simon Scott
I don't know about you, but the turtles are. They're in water.
- [22:57]
Sophie James
I know I can't overhead swim, so I can swim, like, froggy style. I can swim. I won't drown. Yeah. I can't overhead swim, so I can't swim fast. And to learn kind of to free dive and do wild swimming with currents
- [23:16]
Simon Scott
and riptides, you've gotta be a strong swimmer.
- [23:19]
Sophie James
You need to know how to swim properly. And. Yeah, that was my brain or.
- [23:26]
Simon Scott
You figured a lot of things out, though, that, like, you know, regardless of whether you're on a, you know, a smelly campsite in Egypt trying to save turtles or you're working in an office trying to be an accountant, so many people try and force themselves through things to try and make it work. And you've. You've figured out a really great life lesson there in a short amount of time, which is this isn't for me and that's okay.
- [23:50]
Sophie James
And, and the thing is I was told that I could go back home, I could go and get swimming lessons and then I can come back and I could do this like full on four month internship. And I was like, okay, so I'll do that. So I went home. But I just thought again, I don't want this. Actually I want to want this. I want to be that person who wants it, but I don't want it because my brain's going, I don't want to do that. I can't be bothered. And if I'm doing that, that means that I am not. I do not have enough passion for it, I do not have enough willpower for it. And it's. I'm pretending to be someone I'm not and it's. That was okay. I needed to go through those experiences and 100% I already have like another project in mind. My life will be. I'm going to go and volunteer my energy in a comfortable way that makes sense to me. But I will volunteer my time because it is something I care about and I want to give to, but it is not something I want to do as a job because it will not go well. And I did have to figure that one out.
- [24:56]
Simon Scott
Yeah, I think that's a really great life lesson for I think a lot of neurodivergent people to hear. I mean I experienced it with acting. I mean I'm a good actor, I've been in good things. But the lifestyle and the rejection and the constantly having to have multiple jobs just to sort of fund a career and navigating people whose parents get them gigs and all of this sort of stuff and justice, sensitivity, it was hard and I still love doing it, but I didn't have the resilience to do it full time. Like there was too much that was affecting my brain to really make it work. And I think that's why a lot of people like you and I have gone through experiences like that where we train for years to do something that we're very good at, we're very passionate at. And as soon as we get to the hands on element of it we go, oh, the expectations have changed, the environment has changed. Like the environment I trained in is very different to the one that I'm working in. And I think that's why a lot of us fall into working for ourselves because we can set the tone and the environment. So before we go to a little break. I'd just love to just touch on what you're doing now, and then after the break, will. Will delve into it. So tell me, what is it that you're doing now?
- [26:14]
Sophie James
So now I am officially a neurodivergent mentor. And I have been a mentor for about four years, since I was in college. And I went through that difficult time. A lady reached out to me and she said, you know, I think it would be really good if you could talk to other people your age and kind of, you know, give them your life experience and, you know, just connect with each other. And so I kind of started it from there and did it on and off through university, where I was, you know, studying marine biology. But I decided at the end of last year, you know, it was when I actually went to Egypt, the. The person that ran the organization, they actually picked me because of the work I had been doing and the posts I had been creating about neurodivergence and how I saw it and how I could connect with people, understand people. That's actually why they chose me for the internship. And on that trip, I had talked so much about it. I was like, what am I doing? This is what I'm. This is what I'm good at. This is what I'm so good at. What am I doing? I evidently have.
- [27:25]
Simon Scott
In a field with a bucket.
- [27:26]
Sophie James
Yeah, why am I in Egypt right now? Like, what is. Is happening? Like, this is what I'm good at. This is what I need to do. And I think it came Christmas time, but I never thought. And so I had actually applied for some mentoring jobs because I didn't. It didn't even come, like, into my mind that I could do on my own. I was like, no, I have to. You know, I can. I'm not trained enough for that, you know, even though I've been doing it for a while. But, you know, so I went for some mentoring jobs. I didn't get them because I didn't have enough experience in, you know, actual jobs because they asked me, like, I think it's called, like, it's called star or something. It's like when you have to give an example of where you showed this skill of, like, a project. And I was like, when they asked me the questions, I was like, I did my dissertation. And like, that was really hard. And like, I was.
- [28:19]
Simon Scott
It's really tough, isn't it, when you leave uni and they go, oh, we want people that have just left university. But you need five years professional experience.
- [28:26]
Sophie James
Experience I was like, but I have been mentoring for five years and like, I, you know, how can you prove that you're really good at something if you don't, don't get the job? Something to say it, you know, like, you know, just, just, I'll show you sort of thing. But it's, it's not like that. And I understand it is, you know, it's not. It's difficult nowadays. So it came to Christmas and I was just a bit, you know, I was actually relying on this one job as actually a trainee autism examiner. So to, sorry, assessor to see if someone is autistic. I was like, yeah, this is up my alley. But then suddenly the job didn't exist anymore. They told me that very, very later on. And I just felt so gutted. I was like, I just don't know what I should do. I know what I should do, but I don't know who will make this happen. So I was like, I don't know who said it. Actually, I think it was my. It was my friend who did graphic design. I had actually met up with her in Birmingham and she was like, no, I'm not gonna work for a company. She was, I'm gonna do something myself, you know, with my own art and my own graphic design, and I want to do it in my way. And I was just kind of talking to her and I was like, oh, you know, I was thinking maybe I should, you know, I should do it myself. And she was like, yeah, I think you should. And I kind of went home and kind of sat in head and I was like, well, maybe I should just do it on my own. I don't know anything about it, but like, in terms of running a business on your own, I don't know that. But I was like, maybe I should just learn. So I, I did what any normal autistic person does. And I went onto Spotify and found a podcast about being an entrepreneur.
- [30:14]
Simon Scott
Hello. Yes, welcome.
- [30:16]
Sophie James
I listened to it all and I was like, yep, okay, I'm going to do it. And that was that.
- [30:22]
Simon Scott
It's crazy, isn't it? Like, have you found your brain runs better? Because mine so so does. Because I felt like I had to ask permission for things. I double guessed myself all the time. And now that I'm running my own, well, I say I'm really running it with somebody. But now that I'm running a, you know, my section of a business, I cannot believe how regulated I am. Sophie. Yeah, like, I cannot believe the flexibility that I allow myself. I cannot Believe how I advocate for myself. Like, I used to be so scared of asking for a day off at my old job. I used to work three jobs and 70 hours a week, and I didn't have a day off for, like, two years because I didn't think you were allowed to have days off.
- [31:06]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [31:08]
Simon Scott
And now look at me. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go and take a day off now. Bye.
- [31:12]
Sophie James
I think all my life, I just kind of proved that I can do things on my own, and I will ask for help when I need it, but I've always just naturally preferred to. All the way through school, I want to do it my own. I want to do it on my own. You know, just let me. Let me do it my way. Let me just sit in that room and learn it from the textbook, and if I need you, I'll ask for it. And I've done that literally all the way through education without someone telling me that that's something I should do. That's just what I wanted to do. And I got all the results that I wanted. I did everything that I needed to do to. To get, you know, the degree, and then after that, to get the internships. And I was like, I. I've always worked better on my own because I need the freedom, because I will work hard. I will. I know myself. I will work hard. I am motivated. But I need to do it my way. I need to do it with how my brain works. And I. It. I've made it sound like I've never worked, but, you know, I've worked as a receptionist. I've worked as in a cafe. I've worked as a gardener for three years with three different gardening companies. So I've worked, like, standard service jobs. And it was, again, always the environment that just, you know, like, killed me. It really, really just made me not a good version of myself. And some people are team people, and they can just get along with everyone, and that's so great. And I think I just. That was not me. And, like, the thing I liked about my gardening job was I could put my headphones on, listen to Stephen King audio books and movies and, like, and that's what I could do. And so no one had to talk to me. I just use my physical body and, like, that's fine. I just move, you know, and then I get to still do what I want. And, you know, no one has seen straighter lines than my lines. You know, I tell you that I was the best mower around.
- [33:21]
Simon Scott
Best goddamn mower that grass has ever seen. Well, this has been a really interesting conversation so far, talking about, you know, doing it your own way. And as somebody who does that myself, I think you're doing a brilliant job. But we've been discussing what you do. So after the break, I think we should discuss how you do it. So I'm Simon Scott for the Neurodivergent Experience and I'm talking with Sophie James. We'll be right back.
- [33:45]
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- [34:48]
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Hi everyone, it's Ashley Dupuis here, the in house therapist on the neurodivergent experience and host of Mindful Mondays. And if you've been listening to these podcasts and thinking, gosh, I'd love to explore this work more deeply. I'd love to let you know about what's coming next. This September, I'll be opening a small group coaching cohort, a gentle, supportive space to explore the kind of work we've been doing here together. So if you've been resonating with the From Mask to Map series or with the deeper themes we've been exploring on Mindful Mondays, this will be a chance to take that work further in community with guidance, reflection and practical tools to help you understand yourself more clearly and move through life with more ease. So if that speaks to something in you, I'd love to hear from you. You can register your interests by emailing me@integrativeiomail.com and you can also, keep an eye out on integrativeiom.co.uk.com where I'll be sharing more details over the coming weeks.
- [35:55]
Simon Scott
Hello. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott riding solo today, but it's not solo. I've got Sophie James from Sophie James neurodivergent Mentoring, who's also Jordan's daughter. And before the break, we were discussing your now entrepreneurship of being a mentor. But I'm really intrigued to see the sort of mentoring that you do because I've been somebody who's been suggested to do mentoring before and a lot of the time I've gone, what do I really have to tell anybody? Says the guy who does podcasting. But I'm intrigued. Deridivergent voices on the rise. Right? We're increasingly being heard. Doesn't mean that we're getting listened to, though. And I think there is now a real rise in young people shaping the conversation online and offline. But I'm sure you experience a lot of what I experienced at your age, where you've got the right words and the right brain, but not the right face. So I'm intrigued. Who is it that you're mentoring? What do you find the issues that people are coming to you with and the sort of conversations that you're having, like who, who, who, who's coming to speak to you at the moment in time?
- [37:07]
Sophie James
Yes. So at the moment I normally mentor, it is mostly women. I would like to mentor more men, but it is mostly women and it is neurodivergent women who I would say are more quite similar in profile to me and my experiences. But also I get very different people. To me, I'm just like quite the opposite, actually more similar to my partner Christopher. I always actually call it very thoughtful with words. That's the way I like to describe it. Just more, you know, a little bit more quiet, more thoughtful with what they're going to say and more stereotypical in the opposite of me of less facial expressions, more monotone, and I am just absolutely wacky. Like, I have, I think, 7,000 facial expressions and gestures and ways of speaking. So it's, it's either, you know, someone can meet someone like themselves or they can meet someone who maybe actually has a very similar internal way of thinking and processing the world, but is appearing, you know, different on the outside. So. But the things that we usually, I talk about a lot is, I think it's, it's ebsa so it's E B S A, which is emotionally based school avoidance Which I now realize that that's what I, you know, that's what was happening with me, you know, my entire life is what I, you know, really refused to go to school at the time and struggled with my attendance. It was always below 70%. We always got the letter. And, you know, at uni, they made the mistake of not checking my attendance. So, you know, mine wasn't good.
- [38:56]
Simon Scott
Not for the first year, anyway. I got my shit together a little bit. But first year I was like, oh, you don't. If you don't go, it doesn't affect your grade.
- [39:03]
Sophie James
Yeah, I just did it all online.
- [39:07]
Simon Scott
So again, just did it. I was like, what books are you guys reading? Yeah, I'll write an essay on that. Handed it in. And I. I know a couple of my lectures hated me because they were like, how dare you turn up? And dare you not turn up and still do well? But that's just sort of how my brain works. And I can understand a lot of people are probably experiencing that in this world.
- [39:29]
Sophie James
I genuinely didn't know any of my lecture lecturers on a personal level, apart from my supervisor, which he was amazing. He was awesome. But anyway, so what we talk about a lot is the experience of, you know, kind of refusing to go to school. And what I do as a mentor is I like to understand people's neurodivergence on an individual basis. Like, you can come to the session, you can tell me you've been diagnosed. Adhd, autistic. That's absolutely fine. But I want to know you. I want to know how your brain works, how you're processing the world, your sensory needs, your differences. I want to know you on an individual basis because just telling me that you're autistic doesn't actually give me enough information. I still don't know anything about you because, you know, I'm autistic and I'm, you know, I'm wacky. So, you know, we're very. We're going to be very different people. And I want to know you. I want to know your strengths, what you're good at, and also what your brain isn't, you know, like, going with. Well, like what. What does your brain not like. What is the. Does it not like, you know, are you experiencing rsd? Do you experience demand avoidance? What does that feel like for you? So usually on my first sessions, other than just introducing ourselves to one another, I normally tell my story. They can tell me theirs. We do a brain map because I'm very interactive, because I am a visual learner in and out. Like I need to see something. Hearing a lot of information. Sometimes it would just, it would just go over my head. I need to see it. So if we're gonna visualize my brain and, and how I work, I wanna, you know, let's put it into a map, you know. So we do the individual strengths and a lot of the time that is actually the hardest section for people to fill.
- [41:27]
Simon Scott
I was just about to ask you this, how like obviously the awareness around neurodivergence is changing and attitudes I suppose are changing. But a lot of people don't feel good about themselves in those early days.
- [41:41]
Sophie James
It seems to be everyone is actually quite self aware about what they feel is wrong with them and they are not self aware about why they actually have a very interesting or unique or great brain. You know, it's very hyper focused on the negatives. And I always tell them, you know, there's more than one side of a coin, you know, there's always going to be a flip side, you know, if your brain, your brain. And this is what I do dislike is that I understand on diagnosis like and, and the papers, it's a very medical approach to neurodivergence, DSM stuff.
- [42:20]
Simon Scott
Yeah.
- [42:20]
Sophie James
And so it is very deficit based and severe. You know, all these very negative words. These stick with young people very closely and if their parents are not educated on it as well, then those words that, those are the words to describe everything. There are no other words.
- [42:42]
Simon Scott
It forms your identity, doesn't it in that really young age. As an example, like my parents were always like, you're always late, you're always late for stuff. And it's because I have time blindness and quite badly. And that became a part of who Simon was at that time where if I was to be like, oh, who is Simon Scott at 18? One of the first things that would have come to my mind is time is, yeah, an illusion and I'm always late. And then. But that wouldn't come out as those words. The word that would come out would be lazy.
- [43:16]
Sophie James
Yes. And it's taking understanding these words and I like to reframe them. Not because we're gonna go into Deluland to pretend that we don't have problems, but because we are not motivated through shame. We are motivated through reward. We're motivated through thinking that we're gonna do something good for ourselves. And that's where things can become tricky is because you know that maybe their parents will give them lots of advice, let's do this, let's do that. But the reason they're not doing it is because they see it as what that means I'm doing something wrong. That means I am wrong right now.
- [43:57]
Simon Scott
Deficit language, isn't it all the time?
- [43:58]
Sophie James
Yes, all the time. And so one, one thing that I, that really always gets me is people say, you know, obviously they say attention deficit, but so then I sit down, I'm like, so do you. Do you have a special. Do you not have a special interest? And they're like, no. I actually really love this thing. I could sit down and do art for 10 hours straight. I could paint for 10 hours attention there. So I was like, so then how are you attention deficited? If you can, you can focus for 10 hours on something? Because that blows my mind. My, my attention span is very short, maybe four hours, but.
- [44:38]
Simon Scott
Oh, I'm like a golden retriever, Sophie. I'm like, up squirrel. Constantly. Constantly.
- [44:44]
Sophie James
I'm like, whoa. But Christopher, you know, he, you know, he could go into a crazy, crazy hyper focus. So. And that's where we start to change the language. So you're not attention deficited. You have selective attention and just reframing those words some, you know, I guess technically they mean the same thing. But one is the flip side of the coin is actually then in life, if you focus on the things that, you know, you do care about or you are really interested in, what can you do with that? You know, what could you build from that? You know, that's a skill. It's actually a really incredible skill to have, and it's not something that should be shamed. But I understand in neurotypical school standards and in the educational system, you know, we at gcse we have like nine subjects. So I literally still say to all my clients, I've done uni, I've done college, I've done secondary school. The one that was the hardest was GCSEs, and I didn't even do my GCSEs because I was Covid year, but it was still the hardest. And it was because it was so many subjects and it's just so much information and I don't like them all. So I'm not going to remember it all.
- [45:59]
Simon Scott
Oh, I remember sitting in a French exam and all my brain could think was Spanish because I had a Spanish exam like two days later and I was like, I'm. Yeah, I still like, got an okay grade because my brain retains information that I don't even realize is in there. But I vividly remember sitting down in my French exam and Turning the paper over and going, oh, mud. I haven't got a clue because my brain's thinking Spanish. And then I ended up like freaking out in the exam a little bit just because I couldn't rewire my brain. And it was because I had too much to think about at the same time. And I don't think it sets people up well. But one of the things that you, you're mentioning here that I'm finding really interesting with your mentoring style, Sophie, to be honest, I really wish I had somebody like you when I was that at that age is we've got to turn awareness into acceptance. You've got to start with, let me give you a perspective that you may not have experienced before and let me teach you how to love it. Like, that's one of the big things that I've found in my own self advocacy, but also advocating for other people. I always say to people, what are you good at? What do you like to do? And anytime I ever meet anybody and I feel like freaking autistic Jesus in my friendship group sometimes because the amount of people that come up to me and they're like, oh, my friend is doing this. And I would ask them for your advice and I'm like, well, I don't know this person. I don't know how they're neurodivergent, but what do they like? Yeah, what are they into? And I was talking to somebody the other day and they went, oh, my boyfriend is obsessed with cars. He's obsessed with really, really old school cars. So instantly I just went, what was your first car, John? You went, oh, let me tell you. You let me tell you about this. And he's breaking it down. And he was telling me about different stories and really painting this beautiful picture of his special interest. And my thought process was, there's a guy here who's really struggling to find his place in life. Wouldn't it just be amazing if you could go and work in a car museum?
- [48:05]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [48:06]
Simon Scott
Or go and be a mechanic. And for some reason people go, I have to work in an office. I can't work in like a practical environment. Or like get an apprenticeship. There's this weird stigma around it in the UK of, you know, being a higher up. Like, if you're going to work for a company, you've got to be a CEO. And I've never tried to speak to people to try and get them to fit into the neurotypical world. I try and get them to embrace the neurodivergent one.
- [48:33]
Sophie James
Yeah, I think I. I have a unique approach, I would say, in terms of. I. It depends on the individual. And I think we were kind of talking about this a little bit earlier, before we came on. Whereas, you know, if you are able to go to school, you will get things out of school. So let's try and make school the most accommodating it can be to emulate the real world. Because, you know, luckily what I've gone into, I don't need to be in an office, but what Christopher's gone into, my partner and he. And I'm so glad he's done what he's done because he's always loved wildlife. All his life, he's loved birds, he's loved just every animal. He's obsessed with it.
- [49:27]
Simon Scott
Every time I see a seagull, I think of Chris.
- [49:30]
Sophie James
Yeah, that's what I think as well. You know, Christopher is seagull that, you know, equals equation. He is the seagull man. He literally is. And I'm so glad that he, you know, did a bit of a turnaround at uni and he went to go into more of ecology and he's landed to be a seasonal ecologist. That's what he's doing now. But he. Although he does get to go in the field and he's like in his element and everyone on his team says he's doing a really great job. You know, he still has to do this. This administration work and this. There are still neurotypical standards and they're still. I was gonna call it life Admin, but it's not life Admin, but it's these executive functioning skills that we differ in, but that these environments rely on
- [50:25]
Simon Scott
us to have, like paperwork and reports and emails and. And being on a zoom call at the right time.
- [50:31]
Sophie James
Exactly. And it's still. These are all skills that I still have to do all the time. You know, emails, you know, keeping up with things, lists, listing things, having data. Like, these are all things that I need to do as well. So it. There's this balance, as if, like, I'm glad I didn't not go to school because school still did give me a lot. It gave me a social understanding, it did give me friends, it did give me really good times. And I did learn a lot. And I'm really glad that I learned everything I did at school. I can still remember a lot of my. The stuff I learned from gcse, and it's still handy now, even if I didn't like it that much. So it's this balance between. But then Some people, yeah, I think they should go completely alternative way. So that's the thing. It's really understanding the individual person and their needs to make sure. Maybe, actually, if you don't go to school, how could that affect you later on? Because you do some. You need resilience. You need a bit of toughness and thick skin because life is difficult. But if you have resilience mixed with understanding and acceptance, like you just said, you will get places because you will get. You will be able to do the things that you need to do, but you will understand how to do them in a way that works for you. So it's not that we're. We just lack in executive functioning or we cannot executively function. It function. It's. Our skills are selective, you know, and again, it's selective on what we care about and what we don't.
- [52:06]
Simon Scott
And it depends on the environment at the time. It's like if I was at a coffee shop with you and there's not music blaring or the big steam machines going off, you went, simon, tell me about why podcasting is the next evolutionary step in radio. I'd be like, how much time you got? If you were to ask me that in a busy office where there's phones ringing and there's people talking and there's fluorescent lights. I couldn't even tell you my name.
- [52:29]
Sophie James
Yeah, exactly.
- [52:31]
Simon Scott
But one of the things I'm interested to ask you about and we. Well, I preloaded the question, because I asked you before we recorded, are parents in these sessions with you? Because there are so many times that I wish. My mum and dad are sat in on times I've spoken with a therapist or a counselor, and I'm sure a lot of neurodivergent people that are listening to this relate to this in the. I didn't feel like I had permission to figure things out. I felt like I still had to ask my family or rely on people. I always felt like there was. Whether it was a teacher or a boss or a colleague, there was always somebody I had to ask permission for. And going into, like a mentoring session, especially when you're trying to figure out what you are, let alone who you are, can be really daunting when you're just on your own. So I'm intrigued. Like, how do you find the interactions that you have with parents of these people that you're speaking to? Do you mentor the parents as well?
- [53:32]
Sophie James
Yeah. So for anyone who is under 18, as a rule, I say that their parent has to be able to hear the session, they don't have to be in the room because I don't want to silence, you know, a young person because they feel like maybe, maybe they don't want their parents there and they just want to have a chat with me. And they want, you know, they don't want to feel like that someone kind of over them or taking the role, because sometimes that can happen. Parents can take the lead, whereas I'm like, no, they need to speak and they can. So, yes, that is a rule for me. But if anyone wants their parents in the session, and normally they do for the first one, when they have an introduction with me, I am so happy to have them there. And we can all. And they. And like you said, they. Especially when it comes to brain maps and people are struggling to, you know, say anything or say their strengths, say, their challenges. It is really helpful to have a parent go, no, you are really good at that. And, like, this is something you're really great at. Or I noticed in this situation, maybe you felt uncomfortable and just helping, you know, just encouraging them that they are allowed to talk about themselves and it's okay. So, yeah, it really. It really depends on the person. And I do mentor parents because. And again, it feels weird because I'm not a parent. So, like, there's a. You know, I always tell people, like, look, you know, this is from lived experience. This is from my experiences. This is from my very deep understanding of neurodivergence and people. And this is my passion. But, you know, I'm not a parent. Like, take it with a pinch of salt. But I'll give you what I think worked and what I think didn't work with my life and what I've seen and, you know, we can discuss maybe are you pushing or putting too many expectations on your child or. Actually, a lot of the time, I feel sometimes the opposite. Whereas children still need boundaries. You know, everyone needs boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not. And life is going to be tough. And I found it. It's not fair. It's not going to be all great. You're going to have to learn to advocate for yourself. You're going to have to learn to deal with a lot of challenges and difficult environments, and you're going to have to gain independence. And sometimes I feel there's certain, you know, behaviors because parents care so much, but it's actually can be counterproductive because we need to go through hardship and challenges. And that is something I do respect a lot from my parents, is they gave me support When I wanted it, when I asked for it, when I. When I said that I need it, but otherwise they left me to it. They were like, you need to go and figure this out. You know, you need to go and do it for you.
- [56:35]
Simon Scott
That's the thing is like, yeah, you're hitting on some things there that I'm finding really relatable in the. I had a sort of experience of. I grew up with parents where my dad was the boss. He was the boss of his own business. And that, in my mind, set a very prominent thing for me of, like, being anything less than the boss is kind of a failure. No one told me that, but I built it into my sort of thinking. And I was very much a. You aren't first, your last person. So anytime I didn't win, it felt like a huge, horrific failure. And both my parents were super supportive of, you know, come on, take. Take the 10 count. Get back up. You can do this. But they couldn't do it for me. I saw how much they struggled with that because my mum's like a huge empath. Both my parents are autistic, and I worried them. But in my head, I was so aware that I worried them that I stopped telling them things that weren't working and then sort of switched off a little bit. Are you finding in sessions that parents are figuring out things that their kids are struggling with at the same time, or is like they getting awareness of their children in these sessions?
- [57:53]
Sophie James
I. I think as. I found that. So it sounds crazy because my mum is very different to a lot of the mums that I meet, because my mum, you know, she's a traditional. She, you know, she came from Poland, a very traditional place, and, you know, you don't really talk about your feelings a lot. And so she was a bit, I would say, and not in a nasty way, but she was just a bit cooler or, like, colder than a lot of British mums who seem to be very involved in their children's lives and very involved in what's going on. Where my mum's like, you go and do it. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what grades you're getting. I don't know what's going at school. But, you know, I'm sure it's gonna be good because she believed in me, she trusted me. I think what I'm finding is there are parents that are so. And I think because a lot of these mums are neurodivergent themselves, and they are so heavily empathetic. And analytical that they do it to their children and they really get involved and are analyzing and looking at everything their child's doing and their problems they're facing. And you know, they come sometimes that we come onto a session and I'm like, wow, you know so much about everything that's going on with your child. But then that also might end up making them feel like they don't know themselves, you know?
- [59:22]
Simon Scott
Oh, God.
- [59:23]
Sophie James
Yeah, they don't know themselves. And like you said that they don't want to worry their parents even more so they don't want to tell them things. But then the cycle repeats because they don't tell their parents things. And then their parents spot changes in their behavior and then there's just kind of tension.
- [59:40]
Simon Scott
That's when the mask kicks in. Yeah, that's literally just what I was thinking. Yeah.
- [59:44]
Sophie James
Yeah, it is, it is something I, I find a lot of the time. But it, then you look at it and you think, hey, this all comes actually from a really beautiful place of people caring for each other and people loving each other and parents really, really caring for their children. And I think parents have so much pressure to do what's right for your autistic child and do what's right for your ADHD child. And you don't understand that they're different. How dare you? You know, they need this, they need that. I think there is a lot of pressure on parents to get it right. And they're confused to know, am I being too harsh? Am I putting too many demands to them? Am I being too soft? Like they're so confused.
- [60:28]
Simon Scott
Oh, Sophie. Do you know what this made me just think of?
- [60:31]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [60:31]
Simon Scott
I think neurod, typical kids and parents and neurodivergent kids and parents need to have a reframe of what success is because so many of us live with shame. Right. Because like my mum, I was her special interest. I was her hyper focus, was only child. My mom didn't have a great childhood and she was like, I want to make sure he never has to deal with anything that I deal with and sort of made it, it repeat itself in little ways.
- [60:59]
Chase Sapphire Preferred Advertiser
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- [61:01]
Simon Scott
Through no fault of her own. It's like my mum had a very absent mom, whereas my mom was so full on. I actually felt like I needed to sort of create a bit of space sometimes. And like one of the, the great things that I've experienced is as I've gotten older, I've been able to form those conversations with my parents as like, from one adult to another. And say, yeah, I was your special interest. That's healthy. But it's also very intense. And, you know, I almost did things that were out of character because I was trying to figure out who I was without you guys.
- [61:37]
Sophie James
Yes.
- [61:38]
Simon Scott
And that's like. Because my family was such a tight knit little family. So for, like, me and my mum and my dad are super, super, super close and I moved to London and literally just started doing things that were so out of character because I was like, I don't know who I am. And it wasn't because I didn't know who I was. It's. I didn't know who I was without my support unit.
- [61:59]
Sophie James
You had someone else's voice or their thought process in your head.
- [62:03]
Simon Scott
Yeah. It's hard to make decisions when you feel like there's a gallery in your brain of people that you've got to run things past. And I totally agree with you. I think sort of ripping the band aid off and moving to uni on my own was one of the best things that ever happened. Happened to me. But it also created a lot of problems because I was sort of wild and free and trying things and doing things I probably shouldn't have been doing, but it was because I could. I almost wanted to rebel against who everyone thought I should be.
- [62:34]
Sophie James
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I. And I think I actually am seeing that. I found really interesting what you just said there about your mum's special interest was you. And like, I think that is the perfect nutshell of a sentence to describe what I was trying to describe of what I'm seeing is a lot of these neurodivergent mums, their special interests are their neurodivergent children. And, yeah, so they are. They can end up lacking their identity because their identity has become, I'm autistic, I am adhd. And we are you. We are, you know, dictating life around that. And actually, like, I'm just like, although I love these words, like, this is, you know, this is my life. I love these words. Let's talk about it. I had to. I'm like, throw these in the bin. These are just words that describe patterns of the brain. That's what it does. They describe patterns of, you know, taking in information and processing information. They are just words. They are not physical things that we have or we don't. It's just a way that our brain works. So let's just discover your brain and how it works. Understand. Yeah. You have a pattern associated with the autistic brain and you also have that pattern associated with the ADHD brain. That's me. You know, that's 100% me. But how. How are they associated? What is your pattern? You know, and. And when people can start actually gaining their own understanding of themselves and understanding of what's going on. I think you mentioned earlier, what I really struggled with when I was younger is shame, is I felt because I would have meltdowns, and I was very reactive and I was very hypersensitive. And, you know, I. I would, you know, I was called when I was younger, drama queen. And, you know, she's, you know, she's. She's quite feisty.
- [64:37]
Simon Scott
Oh, I still feel like a drama queen now, like, all the time. I'm either aggressive, a drama queen, like, and. Yeah, yeah.
- [64:44]
Sophie James
When you understand that all these, you know, when you have meltdowns, where you are getting angry or where you are getting upset or shutting down or you're freezing, these are just emotions being projected into something. But we don't like to identify the emotion because we feel shameful that we feel it. So it's just kind of. Of projected outwardly in some way or another, Whether that's freezing or fawning or fighting, but understanding that it's okay to say, hey, you know, internally, obviously, hey, that made that. That. That made me feel rejected. Don't know why. I guess, you know, it reminded me of something that made me feel bad, that made me feel rejected. But that doesn't mean it's a reflection on me. And you can start looking at things more objectively. And that's what I always encourage is acknowledging. Identifying what you're feeling, you know, maybe why you're feeling that way. If you can't figure that one out, it's okay. And then when we understand how we're feeling and we can acknowledge it, then we can learn how to approach it.
- [65:58]
Simon Scott
Oh, you gotta find the root cause. You've got to find the root cause. Because, like, the amount of times that I'm with. With my fiance and she'll be annoyed at something, and I go, what's annoying? You should go. And I go, no, that's not what's annoying you. Come on. What. What. What's. What is actually annoying you? And she'll tell me and she'll go, oh, I feel better now. And it's almost like that release valve of just. You've got to, like, we're completely covered in all these little knobs that have steam coming out of them and they're going. And you've just got to find the one that. That is just messing with the pressure and everything sort of regulates itself. And I vividly remember this. I had a. A therapist who was less a therapist and more of a mentor. And a lot of the reason as to why this show exists is because he said to me, I actually think the conversations that we had would really help people. Maybe you should go on away and record them. And that's the whole reason as to why this show exists.
- [66:50]
Sophie James
Pretty much shout out to him.
- [66:52]
Simon Scott
Shout out to Phil. And one of the things that he said to me, which literally I say to myself daily, Sophie, is you aren't your thoughts and feelings, you just have them.
- [67:02]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [67:03]
Simon Scott
And that's like the permission to allow myself to be upset without feeling like a drama queen, without feeling like I'm overreacting, without feeling like I'm making everything about me. I'm just. I've got energy in my body that has nowhere to go. And this is how it's coming out. But where's that energy coming from has been one of the most, like, healing things for me. And like, what you were saying earlier, I'm all DHD with, like, OCD tendencies with a form of physical Tourette's. I have crazy, crazy echolalia. My rumination is a. And I'm sure on paper, in a filing cabinet, you and I would profile very, very similarly. But we're so different.
- [67:45]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [67:45]
Simon Scott
We're such different people. And that's one of the things that I'm, like, so happy to hear that you're doing mentoring. And I love, love speaking to other people that are doing mentoring, because the way that I have healed is almost like getting around that campfire and sharing life stories.
- [68:01]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [68:01]
Simon Scott
It's sharing experiences and just feeling human and just feeling like I'm connecting with somebody. That's been the. That's been the one thing that has healed me more than anything.
- [68:12]
Sophie James
In a way, I. I think mentoring healed me as well because I never knew growing up, up that other people didn't want to go to school like me. Like, I. I genuinely. I cannot think of someone who I knew a one girl in years. Haven't left school, but we didn't know why. But I didn't know anyone like myself who just wasn't going in. Like I was, but was also like, like, very happy to learn. Like, kind of also wanted to be there. So it was like, really strange. I. I didn't know anyone like that. So I would just be in shame all the time. I would be shameful that I didn't want to go in. I dislike myself for making things more difficult for myself. And then it would just be a repetitive cycle that I, you know, I repeated and repeated till uni. I'm gonna go in. No, I don't want to go in. Why didn't you go in? Look what you've done now. And just feeling so shameful about my procrastination, my demand avoidance, my not wanting to go in and feeling shameful of mostly how rejected I used to feel and still feel sometimes I feel so I'm so easily rejected, I think, a lot of the time. And that rejection sensitivity isn't, you know, it comes from a lot of experiences. Everyone's rejection sensitivity is personal to them, and it is. So when I talk about rejection sensitivity, I literally have a PowerPoint that I've made, which, because, like I said, I'm a very visual learner, lots of information isn't always helpful. So we go through this PowerPoint of understanding what it is. I literally call it a hypersensitive social alarm system that just, like, goes off more often than other people. And I also talk about the strengths of being quite sensitive to rejection. It means that you're probably a very thoughtful, loyal, you know, person. You know, that this is also what it could mean about you. Let's also talk about what. What that could mean. And then when we break it down and situations where we find it, we can reframe them. We can try and see things from objective points of view and not. And I. Literally, the first page of my PowerPoint about rejection sensitivity is that it is not about being weak. It is not about being crazy. Because that's the one that I always felt like I was crazy. That is and is the worst feel, feeling like you're crazy.
- [70:44]
Simon Scott
Oh, I remember genuinely one Christmas, Sophie having a horrific meltdown and I turned to my mum and I was like, I am nuts.
- [70:51]
Sophie James
Yeah.
- [70:52]
Simon Scott
I was like, they would have lobotomized me a very, very long time ago. Yeah. Like. And that's why I've struggled with, like, drinking substances. It's that Tom Waits quote of rather the bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. And I stopped feeling crazy when I found words and names for these things and reframed it. So. Yeah, I love that. That's awesome.
- [71:13]
Sophie James
Yeah, exactly. And that's. That's what helped me as well. Because before, I was just like, I'm crazy. I'm not. Well, that's what I used to think. I'm not. Well, I know perfectly now. I've never not Been not well, however you say that I've. I've always been well, you know, I've just. I'm a very analytical person. I'm very thoughtful, very hyper aware. You know, many experiences in my life have shaped that. It's not just because I was born with this brain, but experiences add this type of brain equals that. It's an equation, isn't it? Sometimes. So just understanding it again and just breaking it all down. Just love to break things down, visualize them, chat about them. And, and so this sounds like I'm very like strategy or practical focused. But this is just one area of what I'm happy to do. And a lot of the other time it is just share that we as people feel similar ways, you know, and sorry. During this, I could think of a million stories of my clients that I could talk about, but I'm like, no, do not talk about other people's experiences.
- [72:24]
Simon Scott
That must be hard being a mentor who you speak to all of these people and also being an oversharer. Let's put the brake on that.
- [72:31]
Sophie James
Don't do that one. But, you know, I hear someone's experience and I go, you know what? I experienced that. So similar, but kind of in a different way. So like I, you know, some people, they don't want to be around. They don't, like, they're very conscious of other people looking at them and being around other people.
- [72:52]
Simon Scott
Sensitivity is literally the worst for me.
- [72:56]
Sophie James
And it almost becomes like I. It's like the, it is, it's a special interest, but like, not in a good way. Like, it's very obsessive and, and I felt that way in a different way because I felt that way about how I looked growing up on my body and body dysmorphia and things like that. But actually when you look at it, it's a very similar experience. Experience of feet and the emotions are very similar.
- [73:20]
Simon Scott
So again, it comes very similar of how you feel about yourself.
- [73:24]
Sophie James
Yeah, exactly. And just having these conversations and I, and not to, you know, be mean to old people, but like, I think, I think having someone more of your age to talk about it with is, Is nice. It's like I'm not talking to someone who is 50 years old, even though that 50 year old could be really good. I think there's a mental thing of like, oh, you're. We grew up with social media. You know, I, I literally was the age when Instagram came out, I think when I was like 13 or 14. So I, I get that. I grew up with Technology. I was in that, you know, generation.
- [74:05]
Simon Scott
Oh, I'm a, I'm as what they would call a zillennial. I'm the last generation that grew up with analysis blog and moved into digital. I remember before even Facebook, MySpace and things like that. But I, I totally agree with you. If I was somebody now who was recommending a mentor, I would try and find somebody who is a similar demographic simply because you speak a very similar sort of language. Not that I'm going to be like, you know, talk about Ohio or whatever the kids call these days, but very weird words. Now you want to feel old, guys speak to a kid. I agree with you in that I am a better advocate in my opinion anyway, for people my own age. It's like I speak to people in my family that are a similar age to me, like cousins or whatever. I try and speak to the uncles and the aunts. I'm wasting my time sometimes because they have a very fixed idea of what neurodivergence emergencies and they can't break away from that rigidity. And a lot of the time as well, 50 year old talking to a 20 year old without trying to will patronize them because they're like, I've lived longer than you, I've got more experience. Listen to me. And whatever you've got to say is irrelevant because I've got more of it.
- [75:21]
Sophie James
I think that's what a lot of young people experience. Yeah. And most of the people that I have spoken to have all gone through some form of therapy and obviously I really recommend therapy, but I. Yep, me too. I recommend therapy that is from a neurodivergent therapist. Like, you know, like Ashley who's on the podcast. Like Ashley has been so amazing to me because I felt like she could actually understand me and not just hear what I'm saying and then try and reframe was actually. Oh no. Yep, I get that. I was there. I did that as well. I felt that way. And you're like, oh really? And you're like, you're good, you're doing good now and it's very inspiring. And so you're like, okay, well then I can do good as well. Because you're not just, you're not just saying this off of just trying to work me out. You're saying it because you know, because you've been there and there's something really, really powerful about that and that. And that's why I've started doing group sessions as well with people who are similar ages because it. And when I'VE done that. People's feedback of literally being like, I didn't know that other people felt that way. I didn't know there were other people like me. And it made them feel so good about themselves because they could just connect and, like, be happy with their other people who are like them. And they get, you know, they. I say match each other's freak. Not in a rude way, but, like, I just like to say, like, we match each other's freak. Like, we're freaking out, you know, in a similar way. It's awesome, it's fun, it's great, and you need to meet people like that. But what I was gonna say is also. Sorry. I just always have so many things.
- [76:59]
Simon Scott
No, no, it's all right.
- [77:01]
Sophie James
This is the one thing that goes wrong in my sessions, is I talk too much. And then I'm like, there's no. Are you okay?
- [77:06]
Simon Scott
We will wrap up soon.
- [77:08]
Sophie James
Are you.
- [77:09]
Simon Scott
Don't worry.
- [77:09]
Sophie James
You are allowed to speak now, is what I say to them.
- [77:13]
Chase Sapphire Preferred Advertiser
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- [77:13]
Simon Scott
I've been doing a podcast with your dad for three years,
- [77:17]
Sophie James
so for young people, it's nice to talk to someone a similar age to them. And then I think for older people, it's nice to talk to someone who has a fresh perspective. So I think it can go me just being a sales woman here, you know, speak to anyone.
- [77:35]
Simon Scott
Get your bag, girl. Get your bag. Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation today. Sophie, as somebody who does, like, entrepreneurship, and you've done it in your own way, but the fact that. That you're doing it for good and, like, you're trying to help people and grow within the community, I. I don't think you could tick more boxes of why neurodivergent people should maybe have a crack at it on their own. I would really recommend it. And I would also really recommend anybody come and speak to you. So how could they do that? How can they. How can they book a session with you?
- [78:07]
Sophie James
You can book a session with me through my website, which is Sophie James, mentor.
- [78:14]
Simon Scott
And that's all right.
- [78:15]
Chase Sapphire Preferred Advertiser
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- [78:16]
Simon Scott
Really sorry. I'm asking you to remember something that's not written down. So It's Sophie James, ndmentoring.com the link is in the description of this podcast episode. So, yeah, go and link and book. Do you do. I should have asked this. Do you do, like, over zoom? Are they in person?
- [78:34]
Sophie James
It's all through zoom. And yeah, you can not have your camera on, because I know some people feel uncomfortable with that, which is absolutely fine. Some people want to speak for the whole session and I'll listen. And then some people want to somehow listen to me or session. Yeah, they just. They are just spoken out for, you know, for 30 minutes, and they love it. So, you know, I. I love personalizing and customizing to each individual person and hearing everyone's unique, unique story. I think it's just. I find it really rewarding. And, you know, I'm just so happy that I've done. I've done this. I convinced myself, you know, you can do it, you know, and I. And I did a. I did a counseling course. I did a child safeguarding course. I did, you know, and now I'm actually doing a neurodivergent coaching course, and I'm doing a business administration course. And I get to do it how I want to do it, and I love it. So I just think for anyone out there who also has a passion in something, you know, there are always alternative ways. You don't always have to go down a traditional route. You can make something of yourself and your interests and what you want to do. You can do it.
- [80:00]
Simon Scott
No, I absolutely love that. That define your own success is the advice that I would give everybody, and doing it sometimes is the success. You just don't realize it. It's Hindsight Season 2020. Right? It's like, you know, you never know how well you're doing until you're a few years down the line and looking back on it. But I've loved this conversation. Sophie, it's been so great talking to you, really excited to get you, you back on the show. And anybody that's listening to this, go and book a session with Sophie. I think whether you're a young person or the parent of a young person, and it will be a brilliant way of connecting with somebody in your community and normalizing our alternative neurotype and our experiences. So Sophie's going to be with us tomorrow for the Hot Topic. We've got an interesting conversation around a form of bullying that has formed. So we're going to be discussing that. But thank you very much for people that are listening. Sophie, thank you so much for joining me. You've been amazing.
- [80:53]
Sophie James
Thank you for having me and thank you for listening.
- [80:57]
Simon Scott
It's been a pleasure. We will be back next week week with another episode of the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you so much for listening. Be kind, everyone. Be safe. Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversation and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.
- [82:06]
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- [82:26]
Sophie James
So where should we go next year?
- [82:28]
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- [83:37]
Simon Scott
Thanks for listening. Support Autistic LED media through Autistic Culture plus and enjoy bonus content, early episodes and ad free Listening listening. Visit autisticculture supercast.com to learn more.