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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the very first episode of the Neurodivergent Blend. We are so excited and grateful that you have chosen to join us. Our hope is that we can understand, learn, challenge and appreciate all of the neurological and emotional differences within us all. This series of episodes we look at nemesis and gifts, with nemesis being the inescapable challenges that haunt neurodivergent individuals, whilst also shining a light on the many strengths and gifts that neurodivergence can bring. In this episode we'll be discussing trauma and what part it plays in the life of a neurodivergent individual. I'm your host, Maryam Hassan, and I'm joined today by my friend and colleague Emma Lord Jenkins. Emma, so great to have you here with me talking about neurodivergent neurodivergence. Today we're discussing trauma and what kind of nemesis that is for neurodivergent individuals. So there's a really interesting discussion I think to be had around how trauma shows up, but also what part it plays in neurodivergent individuals lives. And one of the things that I'm very much aware of is this kind of broader debate that I've heard being spoken about through colleagues. But also some neurodivergent individuals have also questioned that sense of trauma in terms of is it trauma that they feel that they hold about their neurodivergence or is it trauma that they are experiencing because in some way they have felt othered which is treated differently to a neuro typical individual? And I wonder if you've come across that.
- [01:55]
B
My instinct would be that a lot of it does come from our environment. Because if we are receiving lots of negative messaging about ourselves from others, from our peers, our teachers, our family, for example, it makes sense that that might create trauma, that repeated negative experience. Whereas if the world was more accommodating and accepting of neurodivergence, then I suspect that we might see less of a trauma response. So that would be my instinct. And I think in the. So for example, in education I work with lots of students, many of whom are neurodivergent. So I'm a careers advisor and meet with them on a one to one basis. And I can see people using quite negative language to describe themselves and their own traits. That's come from somewhere and I think quite often that's come from teachers or family or peers. I don't think it's something that they're, you know, necessarily born with or is inherent. I think that's come from in the environment and Quite often, I think the self esteem is quite an issue. Students often hear a lot of critical messages about themselves, particularly when they're neurodivergent from a younger age. They might be labelled as scatty, lazy, clumsy, for example. I mean, I have adhd. That's how it showed up for me when I was a student, when I was younger.
- [03:05]
A
I think that's a really good point about self esteem and the messages that particularly neurodivergent children received from school. Even though I was diagnosed with dyslexia later on in life at university, I'm doing what many people are doing today, which is self diagnosing and I suspect that I have adhd. But the inattentive aspect of this, it's
- [03:29]
B
interesting if you think if that had been picked up a lot earlier, how would that have affected your own experience with trauma? And I guess it could go either way. I think it depends on your support network and it depends on the language used to describe your ADHD or your dyslexia.
- [03:43]
A
I'm reflecting back to when I was at school. The messages that I received was that I was lazy, that I wasn't paying attention, that I wasn't showing up in class, I was distractible. My favorite one is if only she tried harder.
- [04:01]
B
Yes.
- [04:01]
A
And those messages are repeated daily. And something that we recognize about trauma that isn't talked about is that repeated negative messaging and how those repeated negative messages become trauma. There were so many messages like that on a daily basis. And in those days, teachers could punish, so there were lots of punishments that I received. I remember once having to sit down in my lunch hour and write lines saying, I will not stare out the window. I will not stare out the window line after line after line, because I just couldn't follow the class. And so there are those kind of experiences that I know that neurodivergent individuals experience very frequently. And in a way, bringing in a little bit of research or science, we call that type one or type two trauma. And type one trauma is when it's like an acute, a single event type of trauma. You know, that may be a car accident or something that happens once in somebody's life, which is obviously traumatic. But the type 2 trauma is the chronic repeated trauma that is said day after day, day after day, whether it's from teachers or peers in the playground or friends or family members. And that's kind of the type 2 trauma that then gets ingested and internalized.
- [05:31]
B
Yeah. And everything you're saying I'm resonating with because my School experience was quite similar. The labels are quite similar. There might be a few differences, but I mean, I had a lot of lazy, scatty, if only you just tried hard or if only you could focus. That followed me around. And that had an impact because like you, I got a late diagnosis of ADHD for me. And so it took until I was 28 years old to really understand what was going on and replace some of that negative language with, you know, the actual traits and the actual descriptions that were much more accurate and far less shaming.
- [06:01]
A
This trauma and the shame actually then leads into each other. But there is also something about dissociation that happens where. And what I mean for dissociation, for those that are listening is that sense of an individual, and we know that this happens at a much higher level than neurodivergent individuals, is that dissociation can mean that they blank, that they their nervous system or what happens internally, what they are internalizing becomes so overwhelming that their system shuts down and their mind, their thought process shuts down as well. You're nodding.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah, well, I've seen it. I can relate to this from a personal point of view, but also I've seen it show up in education. So working with young people who are even known to be, or I suspect as being neurodivergent, sometimes I'll be working with them and perhaps they'll shut down and they'll almost hit a wall where they don't want to go any further. And I wonder whether sometimes they might be disassociating because they're worried about perhaps imposter syndrome and they don't want to be found out as being lazy, scatty, or whatever else they've been told that they are before. On the surface to teachers that might look like that student is being lazy or that they're not trying, but actually when you dig a little bit deeper, almost always that's not the case. And there's something else going on also.
- [07:24]
A
It really beautifully in a way blends in with things that we understand, which is heightened sensory responses in neurodivergent individuals, which we will be talking more about in a follow up episode. But actually, I mean, a lot of what we're talking about is some of the details that many people out there don't really realize that happens on a daily basis for neurodivergent individuals. And the thing that I also want to say about dissociation is that actually it's not something that it happens unconsciously, it's something that happens very intuitively in the person's body because people think it's something that they may be able to control. But often, as I mentioned, that nervous system becomes overwhelmed and flooded. So it's. Our bodies are great. It actually has a way of protecting us. As you were saying, it can seem as if we're disinterested or somebody is withdrawing or isn't taking part in the class. And so there are these little signs of trauma that could, if we raise our awareness and if actually there was appropriate training perhaps for teachers and educators out there, even actually in employment environments. You're nodding again, sorry.
- [08:46]
B
Yeah, I think it's about exercising curiosity before judgment and that's an important lesson for everyone, but particularly education, because the earlier that starts, hopefully the less impact that trauma might have going forward. But yeah, I've noticed it in the workplace as well. So I think there's a tendency to make assumptions about people's behaviour and why they're doing things before actually just peeling it apart and thinking about what's actually going on here.
- [09:11]
A
Absolutely. And it was making me think about how that sense of belonging I mentioned othering earlier, when somebody feels like they're not being actually received for who they are, and what can then happen is that sense of not belonging in an environment and then trying to change who
- [09:31]
B
you are to fit in, which is masking. So trying to mask your natural behaviors and traits and behave more like what's considered neurotypical. And that is exhausting and that can't always be maintained. And so it's got to come out somewhere. That might come out as, you know, mental health issues down the line or, you know, meltdowns or whatever it might be, but it's not possible to keep that up and that's exhausting. So somebody who might look like on the surface they're not trying is actually trying twice as hard. Because not only are they trying to, you know, be neurotypical or to behave in a certain way, they're suppressing their own natural behaviors and instincts.
- [10:08]
A
We can be talking about somebody who's autistic, that may be an introvert or maybe quite insular, but we can't often tell in the moment what may be showing up and where that is coming from. What we do know with neurodivergent individuals is because they've gone through a lot of trauma about how they have felt othered that actually they feel like they are other in some way. I run a support group for therapists who are dyslexic and dyspraxic and that sense of having to work incredibly hard, not actually being received as trying, is so disheartening, it also makes the individual invisible.
- [10:51]
B
Their struggles aren't being recognized. And how frustrating to be told you're not trying hard when you're actually trying twice as hard as somebody else.
- [10:56]
A
And one of the things that I know, actually a little piece of information about dyslexic individuals is that actually, because of the way their brain works works and the way that their brain is hardwired, a dyslexic individual may be trying to write that essay. And on the surface, it may appear as if they're not putting in effort, but their brain is working at least twice as hard, if not 10 times harder, to actually achieve that same piece of that same task or that same piece of homework that somebody else is doing.
- [11:30]
B
Can you think how that energy could be spent elsewhere if they didn't have to put the effort in?
- [11:35]
A
I could. I definitely could. One of the things that I know that I manage for myself is brain fatigue, because I know that my brain is working twice, at least twice as hard. I'm constantly aware of when my brain is fatiguing, is to keep myself hydrated, is to keep. I mean, I'm a snacker, I don't know about you, but I'm constantly snacking because I know that I knit. I mean, intuitively, I know that I need that energy, actually, and I need that fuel to keep me present, to keep me kind of functioning.
- [12:08]
B
But the world isn't built to accommodate neurodivergence in this way, I don't think, because for me personally, with my ADHD brain, I have to go with the peaks and flows of energy. So I might feel very fatigued one minute, but then at midnight, when everyone else is in bed, that's when I come alive and have all my ideas. But school and education and work isn't set up that way for a lot of people. So, you know, as I've got older and I've learned to understand my brain, I can now work with that and I can set up a lifestyle that accommodates that. But children in the education system, it's a very kind of nine to four or whatever system, and those natural supports aren't always in place, nor do they know how to put them in place, because they don't necessarily understand how to work with their brain. So they're constantly working against it.
- [12:50]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think the UK schooling structure is set up in a particular way that actually, despite some of the best efforts of teachers and I'VE got some friends who are teachers and they are amazing. And I think even they would agree that the way the schooling system is set up, it's not structured particularly for neurodivergent students.
- [13:15]
B
That's really difficult because also structure is important and routine is important for a lot of people. And there's lots of different ways that neurodivergence can. Traits can intersect and different and people have different needs. So it is difficult for teachers. I do empathize with teachers and support staff because it is hard to support everybody and to meet everybody's needs, isn't it? But I think there's a lot that can be done just by, as we were saying, exercising our curiosity and understanding neurodivergence better and just, I think just showing students that understanding goes a long way because that allows them to articulate their needs. But if they don't feel safe to do so, then they're not going to get the support they need.
- [13:50]
A
I agree with that. I agree with the sense that actually there needs to be more raised awareness, more education and challenging some of the existing mindsets. And I love that fact that we should all be more curious and less judgmental. There is also that sense of if we were more informed and if teachers had more information about, for instance, masking. And we know that masking comes from that place of trauma and shame, actually. So there is that sense of if we understand that a neurodivergent student, and we may not know who that student is, but there is going to be a neurodivergent student in the class because we know that 20% of the population is neurodivergent. So if we understand that and teachers understand that, then there is that sense of looking out for the ways in which somebody may be masking. We've talked often about how somebody who perhaps is adhd, they may have that inattentive aspect of ADHD where the hyperactivity bit isn't being on display and it can't be spotted.
- [15:02]
B
Yep. And hence why. Well, I know you're dyslexic, but we both got late diagnoses. And that's because some of the traits aren't as recognizing girls and women, generally speaking.
- [15:11]
A
Absolutely.
- [15:13]
B
So therefore it does go unnoticed and you might put even more effort into masking.
- [15:17]
A
And so when, say, for instance, we know that girls mask more and boys, perhaps with adhd, the hyperactive element may be more visible. Even just not knowing that that helps teachers or classroom assistants to be curious and to differentiate. And to differentiate. Absolutely. I was thinking about toxic shame versus healthy shame. And this is something that, as a therapist, this comes up for me in the work that I do with clients, but also conversations that I have with colleagues. And the toxic shame is what tends to happen from what we've been discussing, from the trauma and the chronic repeated trauma that turns something into toxic shame, that turns somebody's experiences into toxic shame. Which then is a reflection on, I don't trust the world. I don't trust individuals because my experience of individuals or the world is that they will other me or that they will label me as whatever it may be, whatever negative label it may be. Healthy shame is shame that we use as a way of assisting ourselves or somebody else in the world to kind of hold the right boundary and to make the right choices. You know, like we may shame somebody, and that sounds contradictory, but we may use shame as a way of saying, no, you don't want to say that to that person because it's not nice thing to say to that person. That's an example of healthy shame.
- [16:53]
B
So it's more constructive feedback, would you say?
- [16:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, I suppose in a coaching. From a coaching perspective, that's how we would reframe that.
- [17:02]
B
I guess it's feedback about what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable. And that applies to everyone, doesn't it? Regardless of neurodivergence. But that makes sense as well, what you're saying about the toxic shame.
- [17:12]
A
And so the toxic shame is what we recognize shows up quite a bit in a neurodivergent individual's life, whether it's with masking, whether it's with meltdowns, anger, outbursts, the nervous system becoming completely dysregulated because it becomes flooded by too much messaging or actually feeling bad, guilt, shamed, all of those things become a trauma response.
- [17:40]
B
Do you think that it can be quite confusing to pick apart healthy shame and toxic shame when you're neurodivergent? Because if somebody's giving you constructive feedback or whatever it might be, the instinct might be just to interpret that as, oh, they're criticizing me, and to go into that, you know, internalize that.
- [17:55]
A
I'm really pleased that you've mentioned that because I know that in another episode we're going to talk in more depth about rejection sensitivity responses or rejection sensitivity, sensitivity condition, although it's known as rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which I really don't like that word personally, which is why I reframe it and say rejection sensitivity condition or responses. I mean, you imagine a child growing up a lot of the messaging that they're receiving is going to feel amplified. And if rejection sensitivity condition is a part of their neurodivergence, then they are going to be receiving the messages in an amplified way. And so that's exactly where they can actually get confused. What's healthy shame, what's toxic, shame, what then becomes trauma.
- [18:51]
B
So it's thought that people with ADHD, for example, receive 20,000 more negative messages about themselves by the age of 10 compared to their peers. I imagine it's quite similar for other forms of neurodivergence as well. So it's not a surprise then that you might have what is perceived as a very strong reaction to criticism or rejection, for example. And on the surface that might not look like a normal or typical response, but actually in the, you know, relevant to their experience, it is quite proportionate.
- [19:20]
A
And actually that's something that teachers could use as a way of differentiating. Oh, this is interesting. This student A is constantly having meltdowns or getting angry or just oh, you know, rather than labeling them over sensitive or you know, disruptive or they're all constantly sensitive. Is a really sensitive. Is one that we're used to experiencing in our lives.
- [19:46]
B
Isn't it defensive as well?
- [19:47]
A
And defensiveness. Why are you being so defensive? Actually you've just said something that upset me and, and that's a really valuable and valid, I think example that shows up a lot in neurodivergent individuals lives. Definitely it's making me think about how much we field, but also the gifts once we're able to recognize as neurodivergent individuals that perhaps there is the trauma response going on. And so for us, raising our awareness around how we can work with some of those things is absolutely freeing. And it helps us reshape our identity rather than holding this negative identity and this failure. I mean, dyslexic individuals tend to hold a perception, a self concept that they are inferior to other people.
- [20:40]
B
Yeah. And I think that that's relevant for ADHD and other forms of neurodivergence as well. Because I'm relating to what you're saying and I think you're right. When you understand what's going on, you know what, how your brain works, you become a lot less judgmental of yourself. And it can be frustrating getting other people on board sometimes to kind of go through that journey with you. But I know that was one of the biggest benefits of getting diagnosed for me was having suddenly access to a whole community of people who understood and that was a really important step to becoming less judgmental and letting go of some of that internalized criticism.
- [21:16]
A
Yeah. So I was just thinking the internal critical voice that was formed for me at school and actually how that became a trauma in. In a way, it became a trauma that I needed to manage in my life. And it was so powerful, so, so powerful when I was younger. And I, I. And it would just permeate across all aspects of my life from how I showed up with friends, from playing sport, from the things that I would do at work. There was this very strong negative voice going on internally that was telling me how bad I was, how stupid I was, how I didn't get it, how I misread a situation. So that became a very strong repeating trauma for me. And I know that it is in the work that I do. I know that it's. That internal critical voice shows up a lot is so strongly associated with neurodivergence.
- [22:15]
B
Definitely. And when you're saying that, again, I'm relating quite strongly. I think for me, I became very socially anxious from, I think, childhood. And it followed me through probably to mid to late 20s. And honestly, the thing that changed that was the diagnosis. I used to be considered quite shy, but I wasn't shy. I was socially anxious. I think it's quite a bit. Big difference. Because there was. There was a reason for it. And actually, in my natural kind of environment with people who made me feel good about myself, I didn't behave like that at all. I was much more kind of outgoing and extroverted than I would be if I wasn't feeling very comfortable. But that social anxiety was crippling, and it was why jobs didn't work out, or it's why, you know, certain relationships didn't work out, for example.
- [22:54]
A
I agree. I think it may be totally different for other neurodivergent individuals. And I know that you're talking about crippling anxiety. What we also know, which is kind of in a way integrated with the trauma response, is that depression, even clinical depression, is much higher in neurodivergent individuals. Anxiety disorders, the need to control. The need to perhaps over control a situation or over control an outcome. There can be ocd. There are. What I think many people don't realize is a lot of these traits are integrated, but they usually stem from a trauma response somewhere. And yes, it shows up in all. In all walks of life and in all intersects of life. Actually, you know, it shows up in relationships as well. That trauma response of, I feel like something, somebody's gonna belittle me. Or put me down may stop somebody from really engaging or actually opening up.
- [24:01]
B
Yeah, you learn to assume what other people are going to think and say to you or about you, and then that prevents you from making progress in relationships or in work or in any aspect of life. Sometimes it takes a long time to unlearn it as an adult.
- [24:14]
A
And it just makes me sad in a way. It makes me sad to think about. Some of these things are actually avoidable. You know, if we knew how to spot them, if we knew how to spot masking, or if we knew how to spot somebody dissociating, or if we knew that somebody was being distracted but actually that they were blanking, if we knew how to spot those things, yeah,
- [24:40]
B
it would make a huge difference. And earlier as well, because there's too many people who are being diagnosed later in life as an adult, and then there's years worth of shame or trauma built up then, and then it's much harder to unpick.
- [24:53]
A
So I know that I've touched into the sadness of that, but the thing that actually gives me hope is that today we are talking more, more and more and more about neurodivergence. We are doing this podcast because we are trying to raise awareness, challenge those mindsets, and really engage people, people from all kinds of different communities, to understand the nuances of neurodivergent individuals. I know that the work you and I do, when we walk into a school, perhaps we are already having conversations and raising awareness. And so therefore, there is hope and
- [25:32]
B
there is more awareness. Although there is a way to go. I'm seeing, for example, students using more terminology that I would never have identified with years ago. There is more awareness generally amongst educators and employers. More employers are reaching out for training now because they recognize the importance of it. So I do think there is hope. I do think that I would like to say in five, 10 years time, there'll be even more awareness around neurodiversity, and we'll start to see some more effective strategies and tools within education and within the workplace. So that's really reassuring.
- [26:01]
A
My belief is that exponentially things are growing, and actually just sitting here with you and having this conversation and now is going to have a ripple effect. And I'm sure that we have listeners that will be listening into this and will also recognize that they can play a part in this. They can be holding conversations with loved ones, with neighbors, friends and colleagues, if they've got kids, perhaps. My sense is that the more we have these conversations, that actually we are then reframing that whole negative deficit based language that really overpowers the neurodivergent individuals, but the neurodivergent world as well.
- [26:44]
B
And I think as well it goes some way to unpicking that other ring that you were talking about. I think what I hope podcasts like this do is creates a sense of belonging because people can listen in and they might relate to some of what we're saying and it might hopefully inspire someone to reach out to someone in their network or to speak to somebody and find other people who understand. And that's certainly what helped me when I got diagnosed was suddenly had access to this whole community of people who are also neurodivergent. And suddenly I didn't feel so. Other than so strange. I felt like I was actually quite normal, which was. I'd never really felt like that before.
- [27:17]
A
Yeah, it's making me think about the gifts in a way as well. With the neurodivergent individuals, you know that there is, there is a sensitivity, but that sensitivity actually turns into a gift because we get to understand all different walks of life. We understand how to place ourselves into struggles and challenging situations because actually we've experienced that. And so we can bring that empathy and bring that awareness and that insight into many different areas that we're in.
- [27:51]
B
I agree. I think that you're more likely to be emotionally attuned to other people's needs quite often if you're neurodivergent because of your own struggles and how you've had to go through life and compensate for certain things. And I think my empathy is quite, I think I've got quite a heightened sense of empathy because of what I've been through.
- [28:06]
A
Because the different neurotypes will also bring in different lived experiences, will bring different responses to the same situation. And actually that's what we need in society. We don't just need silos, we don't just need what's considered group think or echo chambers that just keep repeating what you want to hear. Yeah, we have a very, we live in a very multicultural, diverse.
- [28:31]
B
Exactly.
- [28:32]
A
Global environment, you know, and, and so that we need neurodivergent individuals. And what I really love about what you're saying, Emma, is that sense of we bring those differences, we bring that sensitivity. The different neuro styles and the different neuro tractors traits bring many strengths which we will also touch on in different episodes. But right now, that sense of being able to problem solve, being able to bring in a different perspective to a situation, bring in that sensitivity as you Said sometimes you can have somebody who's a very deep thinker and may be able to hyper focus into something like analysis or research, say. And then you can have somebody who's a creative and brings in this very beautiful, beautiful blend of music, culture, arts, creativity, poetry, something that expands human beings to all different levels.
- [29:28]
B
Absolutely. I think when those strengths are recognized, when you're allowed to actually work with your brain, not against it, that's when you see that kind of beauty happening in the workplace or, you know, in education, because people can actually recognize the value of different neurotypes and how they can work really nicely together. But you need permission to do that.
- [29:45]
A
Yes. And that permission has got to come from. It's got to be ingrained from a young age. Otherwise, then we're setting up people to fail and develop those very strong internal critical voices which then turns into the trauma of what gets shown, you know, or experienced or reflected back in society. But I think we have really touched into some of the gifts. Can you think of any more gifts that may show up?
- [30:14]
B
I think resilience is probably quite relevant. I suppose when you get kind of knocked down time and time again, but not giving up, you kind of have to keep showing up. I think that people can develop a real strong sense of resilience that sees them through and also coming up with new ways to do things because maybe the way things are at the moment don't work for somebody. So you have to come up with all these new strategies. I guess resilience and creativity as you've touched upon.
- [30:37]
A
And just to add to that, I think when you said resilience, this little image came into my head about where resilience has shown up in my life. So, for instance, I'm very sporty, and whenever I've undertaken a sporting activity, I know that having faced so many challenges in life because I'm neurodivergent, that actually it brings this kind of practice, resilience almost that I can reach into. I mean, I've had to work at that and I've worked at that with. Through my own personal therapy or through having a coach. But I know now today that that resilience I have internally, I can draw upon that when I need to. So I think that's a really beautiful point that you've made there. Thank you.
- [31:27]
B
Thank you.
- [31:29]
A
Thank you for joining us today. I hope that you will join us next time as we delve further into more conversations around neurodivergence. And don't forget to share your stories with me and if you liked what you heard, then subscribe and let's keep the conversation going on neurodivergence.