← The Neurodivergent Lens
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Neurodivergent Lens. In this episode, we'll be discussing decision paralysis and working through the don't knows. I'm your host, Mariam Hassan, and I'm joined today by my friend and colleague Emma Lord Jenkins. Emma, an interesting topic, decision paralysis and working through the don't knows. Something I have found anecdotally is that it seems to be almost 50% higher in neurodivergent individuals than neurotypical individuals. So what do I mean by decision paralysis and don't knows? Don't knows speaks for itself. Often the person not knowing, being unable to make a decision. Or when I'm referring to decision paralysis, I'm talking about the inability, a crippling sense of being shut down and being unable to make a decision. I'm talking about something that I feel adjoins to this, which is known as alexithymia. And that means when an individual cannot differentiate how they feel, they don't. They can't tap into this is what I'm feeling in this moment. So something may happen, it may be triggering, but they may not be able to access in that moment what it is that they're feeling. They might not be able to discern I am I in this moment, Am I feeling happy, sad, indifferent, frustrated? They don't have the same landscape of access to languages and emotions.
- [01:46]
B
So how do they interplay then? So if you think about how does that have an impact on decision paralysis, do you think?
- [01:53]
A
My sense is that actually if an individual can't ascertain in the moment how they're feeling, then they may be working hard to try and work it out. And then that sense of the nervous system shutting down, feeling overwhelmed in that moment, then that becomes the decision paralysis. That sense of overwhelm floods them, floods their nervous system, and then it becomes a stressor rather than something that perhaps a neurotypical person may take in their
- [02:23]
B
stride without even thinking about, that makes the most sense. Just anecdotally, that's probably what I've seen showing up the most when I'm working with neurodivergent people, whether it's as a job coach, supporting them to learn new skills of a job or to look for different work or whatever. Yeah, sometimes they can reach that point, feel overwhelmed and then almost shut down and not be able to kind of articulate how they're feeling at the moment or make a decision and move forward. You always need to take it back a step, give it a bit of time and come back to it later. Often I think how it shows up for me when I'm working with people from an ADHD perspective and my own perspective, I think it's more about I almost take on too much. I make decisions too quickly. I'm like, yeah, I'll do that, I'll do that. Almost the people pleasing thing again. And then I'll be overwhelmed because I've taken on too much and I can't do any of it. So that's, I think it shows up in different ways. And that's, that's a personal example and a. Yeah, a work example.
- [03:13]
A
I think that's a really good point because what it's showing is the duality of how it can show up. So the decision paralysis can be one way of being shut down, perhaps dissociating or being flooded, overwhelmed in the moment. And the other aspect of that is in order not to get to that place of shutdown or to work through the, the impending overwhelm is that one goes into kind of action and I mean control.
- [03:40]
B
Yes, it feels like it at the time.
- [03:42]
A
Yeah. I was just reflecting on that sense of. I haven't been diagnosed with adhd, but I, I, as many people are self diagnosing these days, I highly suspect that I have the inattentive aspect of adhd. But I can feel that within myself that sense of. It's almost like a kind of growing doom in me. It's like I need to make a decision about this thing. And I can feel my heart racing, I can feel my nervous system being agitated. I can feel the tension. And there is, there is a. I can feel this duality within me. Me. Either make a decision and make it now or just ignore it and become avoidant.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah.
- [04:27]
A
And I mean, I've done enough work on myself to kind of be able to understand that. But what's interesting for me is particularly when I work with dyslexic individuals, knowing, Trying to know in the moment how they feel is really difficult.
- [04:43]
B
And do you think that's because there's just so much else going on? It's not necessarily an inability, but just because there's so many other factors at play intersecting that maybe it's too much then to be able to articulate it how they're feeling? What do you think?
- [04:55]
A
I think that's a really good point. I'm not sure my feeling, I'm not sure because I think what anecdotally has shown up that, you know, in all of the areas that I work and all of the kind of subgroups that I belong to, I have recognized for dyslexic individuals, there is something about the language that they use. The language can, I mean, I notice it myself sometimes, although I'm told that I'm quite articulate. I notice that there are key words, key phrases like root. The language can become rudimentary for that individual. I'll stick to the, the words that I really know. Not that I don't love words, but sometimes, perhaps because of that memory recall, I don't always ways recall the new words that I've learned or.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah, it's context too, isn't it? The more comfortable you are with someone or, you know, the more relaxed you are, the less you're going to experience perhaps decision paralysis or alexithymia as well. Whereas if add a bit of pressure into the mix, I imagine it could exacerbate those things.
- [06:02]
A
And I think pressure and stress is one of those things, because what happens is we all go back to a default system, a default way of operating that feels really comfortable and, and I'm no different, I guess, than anybody else in that sense in terms of being a neurodivergent individual. But I do know that when I'm stressed or anxious, that how I use my words, the order. I mean, obviously with dyslexia, that sequencing aspect, that structuring aspect, becomes tested and stressed. But the don't know is really. The don't knows, interestingly can show up in different ways. So if somebody is continually in an environment where they're feeling stressed or there's a lot to deal with, then it can show up in terms of how it then means that I may interact with somebody. It may mean I may become more avoidant at work because I've got a lot on my plate. The last thing I need is to be given something else because I've just managed to kind of work out my schedule and my deadlines. And the avoidant aspect of the decision paralysis then kicks in and the don't knows can be increased from the level of stress that I might be feeling. So somebody will come to me and say, well, what do you think? Do you think we should speak to this funder about this, this thing or, or should we wait on for this moment and then perhaps we need to consider this aspect at later stage in that moment I may be like, oh
- [07:42]
B
yeah, again, relating to this quite hard because I was just thinking at home. So, you know, ADHD and doing house chores don't always go very well together. So. And if you, if anything goes wrong in, in your day, like for example, as you know, this morning, power cut at home, right? Happened twice. And then like, the cat threw up and then there's lots of traffic. And my husband came up to me and like, okay, what do you need? And my answer to that was, I just couldn't. I couldn't respond in the moment, as I don't know what I need. I just know that at this moment in time, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know how to move it forward. And then he'd, you know, he's quite good at, like, saying specific things that could help. And that's really helpful, actually. And I think as a strategy, being specific, like recognizing what that person is, offering specific strategies rather than a general how can I help? Is for me, that's a better approach. And I think that's quite useful. Little tip to take forward. You might not always get it right, but it might just help bring someone out of their funk a little bit and then really consider the possibilities. Abilities rather than a vague question. Because that can just feel like extra pressure when you're already under pressure. That's. That's my own personal experience.
- [08:44]
A
I can relate to that, though, and I'm sure that other people who are listening in can also relate to that.
- [08:51]
B
It's a bit like, hopefully this isn't too much of a tangent, but I think any kind of extreme emotion. Think about grief. If someone says, how are you doing when you're grieving? You might not be able to respond to that very well. But if it's like, how are you doing this morning? Or how do you feel about this specific thing? That helps you to answer. Do you know what I mean? That helps you to answer it.
- [09:12]
A
Of course, when you then bring in something like rejection, sensitivity, response with decision paralysis, then you've got an interesting blend. You've got that, you know, I just
- [09:26]
B
make a decision like, absolutely, absolutely.
- [09:28]
A
And then that activates the shame aspect. Why can't I make a decision? My colleagues are making a decision. They need me to make a decision for a work issue, whatever it is, and. And then that spiral effect.
- [09:43]
B
There's a lot of potential intersecting factors. I mean, thinking about adhd, impulsivity can sometimes override everything for me and then make me. I might make a decision that isn't so good or so healthy in the moment. Other times I'll be so overwhelmed, I can't make any decisions. So, you know, two things could be true at different times.
- [09:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's that sense when you can say it's both and yeah, you Know, you can hold this response and that response. But the two of them, when you hold both of them together it creates a third channel.
- [10:11]
B
So that's hard for people to understand, isn't it? Because I think naturally we want to almost put people in boxes and we want to understand them through these specific terms and labels. But people aren't that simple. Straightforward.
- [10:21]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's very true. And I mean we're complex individuals and beautiful complex individuals at the same time. And again, it's that thing about we don't want to kind of narrow neurodivergent individuals down. Some of what we're talking about is anecdotal on what we've noticed in our work and we would love to hear from other neurodivergent individuals to see what their experiences are around decision paralysis or the don't knows even.
- [10:50]
B
Yeah. And the reasons for it. Because I think there are different reasons for it. I was just. Sorry. Just made me think of another example. But there's students that I've worked with where they struggle to make a decision. And I think sometimes it's because they don't trust their themselves to make the right decision because maybe of shame or whatever. But it's not necessarily that they're overwhelmed or have too much choices. I think they're just not sure about making the decision and trusting themselves because they've not been taught to trust in their own and initiative or intuition.
- [11:16]
A
Does that make sense to me? That makes a lot of sense because it also. It also intersects with shame and trauma that we've already spoken about. If you have, as a neurodivergent individual stepped forward and spoken your mind but you've been shut down, then what that does is it breeds that insecurity within you is what I'm saying. Right. How is this going to be received? Should I even be saying something. Thing.
- [11:43]
B
Exactly.
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A
My sense is that these can be some of the kind of. It can be part of the unconscious psychological terrain that. That actually holds neurodivergent individuals back because of those past lived experiences.
- [11:57]
B
100. Yeah. You lose the ability to trust in your own decision making or you think you second guess yourself. I mean I think we do this ourselves. We're like. Is what I'm saying.
- [12:06]
A
Right.
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B
Is. Is this. Is this a stupid thing to say and you just do it this nap. It's second nature.
- [12:10]
A
Absolutely.
- [12:11]
B
But actually what we'd be better at doing is getting it all out there. We might have lots of ideas. They might not all be good. But you're going to have some gems in there. You just got to give yourself permission to do it.
- [12:20]
A
Part of that, though, don't you, don't you find that part of that is about trusting the environment you're in?
- [12:26]
B
Yes.
- [12:26]
A
Like you and I. Yeah, yeah. So there's a term that Maureen Dunn, somebody who's written a book on neurodivergence, it's called the neurodivergent edge. She talks about psychological safety. And my feeling on that is it is so critical, it is so imperative that neurodivergent individuals feel psychologically safe. And it feels like there's a big overlap with this subject that we're talking about, because if we don't feel safe, then there's a higher proportionality of actually dropping into decision paralysis or, or dropping into that place of don't knows and not trusting oneself, not trusting the experience.
- [13:13]
B
Exactly. And if you think about the workplace, for example, if you don't feel psychologically safe, that can lead to, well, not disclosing if you have a neurodivergent condition, but also not putting forward your ideas and not being able to work with your brain, you're kind of working against it. So, yeah, in psychologically safe environments, you're much more able to work to your strengths. And then the team then benefits from the balance of neurotypes as we've talked about as well. But environment in the first place has to be safe to do that. And the onus often is on the individual to disclose and to conform or whatever. It's not on appreciating what makes them unique. And so they can't. They feel like they can't be unique and they can't be themselves.
- [13:53]
A
Yes. That was just making me think about some of the prior examples that we were discussing, but particularly around employment, putting the onus on the individual to, to try and create their own psychological safety. Well, I'm sure anybody listening, if you think about when you've walked into a new job or a new role or you're doing a new project for the first time, and actually you don't know the parameters, you don't know the concept, you don't know perhaps the environment, how, how difficult that would be for anybody to create their own psychological safety in that moment.
- [14:29]
B
And there's certain things because if you think about reasonable adjustments. So in the workplace, so accommodations that people need to do the job as effectively as anyone else, we talk about it through a neurodivergent or disability lens often, but actually everyone benefits from different tweaks to the way they work, but they tend to be more accepted and easy to self advocate for when it's things that everyone can relate to. So you know, I'm wearing contact lenses, nothing to do with my adhd, but it helps me to see someone else might need back support. Those things are a lot more easy to ask for in a work environment because they're not neurotypical. But you know, I mean they're not, they're not related to neurodivergence. Whereas something that is related to neurodivergence can be a lot more hard to ask for or they might not be in place in the, in the first place. You know, those natural supports aren't there as much for neurodivergent people as other needs in the workplace.
- [15:14]
A
So in a way the kind of the nemesis in the decision paralysis is about the creation or non creation of psychological safety.
- [15:25]
B
I think so, yeah. I think it enables people to make decisions.
- [15:29]
A
Another factor that would impact decision paralysis is about processing speed. And of course being somebody who's dyslexic, I know that in the moment or I know that I need longer sometimes to process some things and the higher the stress level associated to that task then sometimes the longer I may, the longer time I may need to process that. So yeah, you're nodding and I'm wondering.
- [15:56]
B
So I'm just thinking that information processing can crop up in across the board neurodivergences. So and again could be lots of different reasons for it but with ADHD it might be sometimes you're, you're operating very quickly or it can be the opposite. So again, yeah, you might not, I don't know, retain information as well. Working memory can, can be difficult. So that's going to impact your processing speed. Sometimes you're like three sentences ahead before anyone else's. So it's going your cognitive tempos really quick. Either way though, you can see how that would have an impact on decision paralysis because you might be struggling to kind of gather your thoughts together. So yeah, I think there's, it's relevant for lots of different types of neurodivergence. I think it's relevant for dyspraxia, for example, autism for different reasons possibly.
- [16:39]
A
And in a way it's the individual differences that people have within their traits as well that impacts decision making paralysis. Because I may be somebody who, yes, has dyslexia and suspected adhd, but I perhaps have in my line of work had more practice effects at being, making quick, quicker decisions than perhaps somebody else who may be in a In another line of work that perhaps hasn't had that experience.
- [17:08]
B
It's all about context as well, isn't it? Because again, keep making me think of examples. But for adhd, quite often, because what's happening is the brain is chronically understimulated so it needs more dopamine almost to get fired up and work efficiently. So if you're in a high pressure environment where you need to make quick decisions, they could be very, very. People with ADHD can be very good at that. But then put them in a more boring environment where your dishes are piling up and you know, then actually it could be the opposite.
- [17:36]
A
Thinking about the gifts and sometimes it can feel hard to think about gifts that are associated with decision paralysis and the don't knows. When I undertook my psychotherapy training, so I was trying to write essays and having numerous meltdowns because all of the past experiences of being in education and trying to write and sitting down and doing that, all of those negative messaging that I'd had up to that point absolutely crippled me. That was my nemesis. It shut me down. It was that sense of I can't do this, I'm unable to do this. And I had to go into a self coaching place, even though actually I had therapy as well. But I had to do an awful lot of self coaching. And part of that self coaching that I did was, and other people may find this useful was mindfulness, was bringing in focus on mindfulness, which meant I would go off for walks in nature, I would concentrate on my breathing. So I would do breathing exercises, I try and do some yoga, I would try and do some. I also like energy, energy based things for me to kind of expel some of the nervous energy to then allow some of the karma energy to come in. So look, so focusing on my nervous system and self regulating myself and of course the value in that, the value of having to gone through that and recognizing that I was being crippled by decision paralysis was that I know that I've got through the other side of that and I know what I can do to actually move beyond that place.
- [19:27]
B
You've come up with your own strategies and you know, that's quite a creative thing to do. I think that's what a lot of neurodivergent people have to do and are very good at. And actually LinkedIn recognizes now dyslexic thinking is a valuable and vital skill because of the creativity that often dyslexic individuals display and because of the strategies that you have to put in place. I think to be able to self manage and to do things a bit differently. So I think that's really interesting and I think that's one of the gifts
- [19:53]
A
of working through the decision paralysis.
- [19:56]
B
Yeah.
- [19:56]
A
The other thing is, is that I hold much more mindfully in my awareness that I used to very frequently not know how I felt, not know what I wanted. Do you want this or do you want that? I don't know. So therefore knowing that and having turned the focus inwards, I'm like why do I not know that? And part of what I've done with that is actually looked to work specifically at what's going to enable me to actually know more is that getting to know myself more is that working on my identity is that actually reading more self help books or having converse more conversations with neurodivergent individuals and then suddenly realizing it's okay to give myself permission not to know in that very moment and to be able to say to somebody, do you know, I don't know right now, but I'll come back to you.
- [20:51]
B
Is it interesting that your whole career being a therapist is around helping people to figure out their don't knows and to unpick their own challenges or whatever. So I think you've almost channeled that in such an interesting way. So it might be difficult. I think internally it could be hard, can't it? I think we sometimes struggle to apply this to ourselves. But personally, for myself, I think quite good at helping other people recognize what's going on and problem solving other people's.
- [21:16]
A
Absolutely.
- [21:17]
B
Even if I'm not so good at it myself. But I think that's a real strength we probably both share. And that's definitely reflected in your decision to be a therapist and all the work that you do.
- [21:25]
A
Absolutely. It's easier, isn't it? It's easier to focus and be able
- [21:29]
B
to and be good at it as well.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you. And to be able to see that, that challenge in somebody else and it's so much harder. I've got so much better at seeing the challenges within myself. But actually doing that work, as everybody knows when you do, when you focus on your psychological challenges, it's so much harder because there's a real resistance and uncomfortability to go to that place.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah, definitely.
- [21:55]
A
In my line of work I'm constantly working with other people, particularly neurodivergent individuals around, looking at their don't knows and sitting with their don't knows. The thing that makes it even more difficult is in society today, people in general find it incredibly hard to. To kind of sit with the unknown, to sit with what isn't knowing. And so therefore that's an external pressure that comes in and society has turned so much into this. We need the answers right now. We can turn to Google or whatever it is.
- [22:31]
B
Need the diagnostic label, need the box to fit people.
- [22:34]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we need that information. Information right now. We need to know now. We need to know that. That we. That there is a certain kind of lowered tolerance around giving oneself permission to sit with the don't. I don't know in this moment and is that okay.
- [22:53]
B
But actually yeah.
- [22:54]
A
The person next to you is like I need a decision or I need to know or what's going on or
- [23:00]
B
projecting that onto the. Onto the.
- [23:02]
A
The person.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
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A
So actually that sense of being able to as a neurodivergent individual recognize that decision paralysis and don't knows exist. Being able to work on that. Specifically being able to recognize.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The things that impact that like psychological core safety, like recognizing where our rejection sensitivity responses in relation to those things and not knowing.
- [23:32]
B
It's permission to slow down in the moments when it is happening. When you do start to feel overwhelmed, it's giving yourself permission not to be. Not to have to make a decision right away. And if you can do that and take a step back, it's probably going to reduce the don't knows in the first place or over time.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah. And I think that really helps people to be able to come from a more gentler, kinder, more compassionate place. I mean I'm often saying to people that we need to be kinder, more compassionate to ourselves and if we can model that for ourselves, we can model that for other people.
- [24:04]
B
Exactly.
- [24:05]
A
Thank you for joining us today. I hope that you will join us next time as we delve further into more conversations around neurodivergence. And don't forget to share your stories with me and if you liked what you heard, then subscribe and let's keep the conversation going on neurodivergence.