Podcast Summary: The New Yorker: Fiction – Aleksandar Hemon Reads ZZ Packer

Episode Information

• Title: Aleksandar Hemon Reads ZZ Packer
• Host/Author: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker, featuring Deborah Treisman
• Release Date: November 2, 2024
• Description: A monthly reading and conversation with the New Yorker fiction editor Deborah Treisman.

Introduction

In this episode of The New Yorker: Fiction, Deborah Treisman welcomes renowned author Aleksandar Hemon to discuss ZZ Packer’s acclaimed short story, Drinking Coffee Elsewhere. Released in June 2000, this story delves into themes of identity, race, and the struggles of navigating elite academic environments. Hemon, an esteemed writer himself, shares his insights and personal reflections on the story, offering listeners a deep dive into its intricate layers.

Why Drinking Coffee Elsewhere Was Chosen

[01:31] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon explains his selection of Packer's story, emphasizing its enduring relevance and the fresh perspectives it brings each time he teaches it to his students. He states, “...bringing it back to them brings up new things in the story every time” ([01:31]).

[02:06] Alexander Hemon:
He reflects on the story’s timelessness, noting that most of his students hadn't been born when it was published. He appreciates how the narrative transcends its original context, offering universal insights about starting life at an elite institution as a person of color. “...as students understand things, often that are not so much invisible to me, but not personal to me, and that revives it in ways that are glorious” ([02:06]).

First Impressions and Unique Elements

[03:00] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon recounts his initial encounter with the story, highlighting Packer's mastery from the very first paragraph. He remarks, “...this is a major writer” ([03:00]).

[03:42] Alexander Hemon:
He delves into what sets Drinking Coffee Elsewhere apart from typical coming-of-age narratives. The construction of Dina, the protagonist, is particularly noteworthy. Dina's narration is imbued with ambiguity and restraint, avoiding overt confession despite the depth of her emotions. Hemon notes, “...it is an extremely complicated narrative operation. It is in some ways the opposite of confessional” ([03:42]).

Character Analysis: Dina and Heidi

[04:53] Debra Treisman:
Treisman introduces the reading of Drinking Coffee Elsewhere by Hemon, setting the stage for an immersive exploration of the characters.

[52:33] Alexander Hemon:
Post-reading, Hemon discusses Dina's duality—her outward bravado juxtaposed with internal fragility. “...she is both confrontational and incredibly fragile. She wants to appear tough, but behind that toughness is this loneliness and fragility that is touching and poignant” ([52:33]).

[59:08] Alexander Hemon:
He analyzes the pivotal scene where Dina and Heidi bond over cleaning up a mouse from the dish room. This act symbolizes purification and the breaking down of barriers between them. Hemon explains, “...they are touching each other's hair... that is a moment of very strong intimacy” ([59:08]).

Themes: Identity, Shame, and Loneliness

[54:15] Debra Treisman:
Treisman prompts a discussion on Dina's shame and reluctance to embrace her true identity, especially in the context of university life.

[62:52] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon elaborates on how Dina confronts shame through her interactions and environment. He connects her experiences to broader societal expectations and the challenges of fitting into a white patriarchal system. “...she trusts Heidi and wants to accept Heidi as she is” ([62:52]).

[64:25] Debra Treisman:
The conversation shifts to the aftermath of Heidi's coming out at a university event and Dina's subsequent emotional turmoil. Treisman asks, “...why is she, A, horrified at the idea of someone thinking her gay and B, so angered by Heidi?” ([64:25]).

[69:20] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon interprets Dina's reaction as a struggle with public identity and the pressure to conform. He discusses the complexities of Dina's emotional landscape and her inability to articulate her feelings, leading to a retreat into isolation. “...her proclivity not to confront her emotions is not substantially changed by the end of the story” ([69:20]).

The Ending: Retreat and Reflection

[71:30] Alexander Hemon:
Reflecting on the story's conclusion, Hemon contemplates Dina's retreat to Baltimore and her longing for a simpler, more authentic existence. He muses, “...she can imagine opening up, but right now she's not” ([72:36]).

[73:12] Deborah Treisman:
Treisman probes whether Dina’s retreat signifies a permanent withdrawal or a temporary respite, suggesting a nuanced interpretation of the ending. “...she's trying to come to terms? You know, it's a retreat, but is it a retreat to get stronger or just a permanent retreat?” ([73:12]).

[72:45] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon likens Dina’s fantasy of reuniting with Heidi in a peaceful setting as a form of coping mechanism, envisioning a ‘retake’ of their relationship outside the pressures of Yale. “Maybe not at Yale” ([72:56]).

Connecting to Hemon’s Work

[73:08] Debra Treisman:
Treisman draws parallels between Packer's themes and Hemon's own literary explorations, noting similarities in characters’ experiences of displacement and identity struggles.

[74:02] Alexander Hemon:
Hemon acknowledges the resonance between his narratives and Packer’s, particularly the theme of displacement. He reflects, “...stories have often the inciting event is displacement” ([74:02]).

Conclusion

[76:57] Debra Treisman:
Treisman expresses empathy for the characters, highlighting the emotional depth and complexity of Packer's storytelling.

[77:04] Debra Treisman:
The episode concludes with an overview of ZZ Packer’s accolades and a nod to her previous and future contributions to the New Yorker Fiction podcast.

Notable Quotes

• Alexander Hemon on Dina’s Complexity:
  “...she is both confrontational and incredibly fragile. She wants to appear tough, but behind that toughness is this loneliness and fragility that is touching and poignant.” ([52:33])

• Hemon on Intimacy between Dina and Heidi:
  “...they are touching each other's hair... that is a moment of very strong intimacy.” ([59:08])

• Hemon on Dina Confronting Shame:
  “...she trusts Heidi and wants to accept Heidi as she is.” ([62:52])

• Hemon on Dina’s Retreat:
  “...she can imagine opening up, but right now she's not.” ([72:36])

Final Thoughts

Aleksandar Hemon’s insightful analysis illuminates the profound layers within ZZ Packer’s Drinking Coffee Elsewhere. Through their conversation, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the protagonist Dina’s internal struggles and the societal pressures she navigates. Hemon’s reflections not only highlight the story's enduring relevance but also draw meaningful connections to broader literary themes of identity and displacement.

For those interested in exploring more stories and discussions, previous episodes of the New Yorker Fiction podcast feature readings and analyses of works by authors such as Bernard Malamud and Vladimir Nabokov. Subscribe to stay updated with the latest insightful literary conversations.