The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: A Genocide Scholar Asks “What Went Wrong” in Israel
Date: April 17, 2026
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Omer Bartov — Professor of Holocaust & Genocide Studies, Brown University

Episode Overview

This episode features a profound and challenging conversation between David Remnick and genocide scholar Omer Bartov, whose recent public statements and new book, Israel: What Went Wrong, have deeply unsettled Israeli and Jewish academic circles. Bartov, an Israeli-born historian specializing in the Holocaust and World War II, discusses his evolution from a Zionist upbringing and his military service to his current, critical perspective on Israel’s conduct in Gaza, which he now describes as genocide. The episode explores the definition and implications of genocide, the transformation of Israeli society and Zionism, and the necessity for outside pressure to bring about meaningful change in Israel-Palestine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Omer Bartov’s Background and Formative Experiences

• Military Service & Awakening ([05:02]-[08:51])

  • Bartov describes being a young soldier in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, drawing parallels between the shock of the surprise attack then and on October 7, 2023.
  • He recounts his realization of the complexities and moral burdens of occupation while serving in occupied territories such as El Arish and Gaza.
  • His real political awakening came during the First Intifada (1987-88), especially when the IDF was ordered to “break their bones.” He compared this to the Wehrmacht’s descent during WWII, confronting then-Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin directly.

• Leaving Israel ([10:09]-[13:04])

  • Bartov shares his motivations for moving abroad: opposition to the occupation, personal alienation due to the First Intifada, dissatisfaction with Tel Aviv University, and an academic opportunity at Harvard.
  • He reflects on the significant wave of emigration from Israel after October 7, 2023, and expresses his own reluctance to visit or return due to the political climate.

“There were moments when I had that feeling, that uncanny feeling... this question that you suddenly ask yourself, what am I doing here? Why am I here? This is not my home.”
— Omer Bartov ([06:27])

The Genocide Debate and the Gaza War

• Initial Hesitance & Red Lines ([13:04]-[18:09])

  • Bartov recounts writing an early op-ed (November 2023), warning of the potential for genocide due to Israeli rhetoric and patterns of action in Gaza. He identifies genocidal statements by Israeli officials and the mass destruction already visible.
  • He emphasizes the importance of identifying and preventing genocide before it happens—warning that the Biden administration’s inaction enabled Israel’s continuation.

• Defining Genocide ([15:58]-[18:09])

  • Bartov uses the UN definition: “acts carried out with the intent of destroying a particular group… as such.” Intent and implementation are the crucial factors.
  • He argues that the destructive pattern in Gaza, especially by May 2024, met this threshold.

“There is a rhetoric in Israel which added genocidal content... ‘They are human animals, and they will be treated as such.’ That kind of rhetoric... that scared me.”
— Omer Bartov ([14:04])

• Turning Point: The Attack on Rafah ([18:09]-[22:33])

  • The Israeli assault on Rafah in May 2024, with over a million displaced Gazans, is seen by Bartov as the shift from ethnic cleansing to genocide due to lack of escape routes and deliberate destruction.
  • He critiques the stated goals of destroying Hamas and freeing hostages as contradictory and ineffective, arguing that the method employed was ultimately genocidal.

• Ethnic Cleansing vs. Genocide ([20:39]-[22:33])

  • Bartov explains how ethnic cleansing can “flip” into genocide when a population has nowhere to flee—a common pattern in world history.

“Ethnic cleansing, which was what the Israeli government wanted to carry out, became genocide... Many genocides started like that.”
— Omer Bartov ([21:50])

Reactions, Painful Realizations, and Public Pushback

• Personal Agony & Social Response ([22:33]-[24:02])

  • Bartov is deeply pained not only by Palestinian suffering but because the perpetrators are “children and grandchildren of my friends,” and that Israeli society is “in complete and total denial of what it had done.”
  • He notes some Israelis feel discomfort because “they know that what I’m saying is correct,” but many reject the label “genocide,” associating it exclusively with the Holocaust.

• Comparisons with Other Atrocities & Intent ([24:02]-[26:33])

  • Challenges the analogy to US firebombing in WWII or Vietnam by emphasizing the centrality of intent: the United States, after WWII, rebuilt Germany, while Israel has devastated and continues to confine Gaza.

“Israel’s goal in Gaza… is to create a kind of resource town for the rich and to have the Palestinians be the water carriers for that. Those who will clean the toilets, wash the dishes, and the rest of the time live in so-called humanitarian towns which would be akin to concentration camps.”
— Omer Bartov ([25:19])

Zionism, Israeli Identity, and Prospects for Change

• Zionist Upbringing & Later Reflection ([30:46]-[34:37])
  • Discusses growing up in an unquestioned Zionist environment—“My existence in Israel was self-evident”—and gradually questioning this in light of two foundational denials: the negation of the Diaspora and the Nakba.
  • He reflects on how Israeli children of his generation grew up without ever questioning “what was there just before we were born? What happened to all those people?... Why were there now Jews from Morocco living in homes that had belonged to Arabs?”

“We were basically, my generation was raised in two denials: fundamental to Zionism. One was the negation of the Diaspora, and the other was the negation of the Nakba… we never asked what was there just before we were born.”
— Omer Bartov ([36:11])

• The Collapse of Liberal Zionism ([36:51]-[39:50])

  • Remnick and Bartov revisit the era of “liberal Zionists” and the Oslo hope of accommodation with Palestinians, culminating in the assassination of Rabin—which Bartov calls “the last moment of realism” before Israel’s turn towards “messianism.”
  • Bartov traces “what went wrong” back to Israel’s lack of a constitution, the transformation of Zionism into an extreme state ideology, and the slide into racism, militarism, and now genocide.

• Is Zionism Reformable? ([39:50]-[41:11])

  • Bartov argues starkly: “Zionism is not reformable. The state of Israel is.”
  • He calls for Israel’s reinvention as “a society of all its citizens,” rejecting ethno-nationalism as the founding principle.

“Anyone who supports [Zionism] becomes complicit in the acts of that particular political ideology.”
— Omer Bartov ([39:50])

• Outside Pressure: The Only Path? ([41:11]-[42:26])
  • Bartov asserts that change in Israel/Palestine will require “shock therapy” and significant external pressure—especially from the US—because neither society currently has the internal dynamic for meaningful transformation.

“What Israel needs right now is shock therapy... It has not still come to identify the limits of its own power, because those limits are in Washington, D.C.”
— Omer Bartov ([41:21])

American Opinion and Antisemitism

• Decline in US Support, Rise of Real Antisemitism ([42:26]-[43:49])
  • Notes Pew research showing 60% of Americans hold a negative view of Israel, calling it “something quite good about American society” in that the public responds to reality on the ground.
  • Warns, however, about the rise of “real antisemitism” from the American far right, in contrast to the often-exaggerated accusations of antisemitism against the left.

Notable Quotes

• “The sense of shock, the lack of preparedness, the arrogance that had been there before both events was very similar.” — Omer Bartov ([05:02])
• “I could see where this was heading...the same direction that I had researched and saw the Wehrmacht... had gone down that slippery slope of brutalizing an army.” — Omer Bartov ([08:00])
• “They shall have no water, they shall have no food, they will have no power. They are human animals...” — Omer Bartov recalling Israeli rhetoric ([14:04])
• “Intent matters. How do you discern intent?” — Omer Bartov ([25:19])
• “Genocide is not the Holocaust... What happened in Gaza is a particular genocide that happened in Gaza.” — Omer Bartov ([23:02])
• “Zionism is not reformable. The state of Israel is. But the state of Israel has to be reinvented.” — Omer Bartov ([39:53])
• “What Israel needs right now is shock therapy... [Its] limits are in Washington D.C...” — Omer Bartov ([41:21])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:12] — Introduction of Omer Bartov; his background, early beliefs, military service
• [06:27] — Military awakening; comparing Israel/IDF actions to historical atrocities
• [13:04] — Use of the term genocide, early warnings, Israeli rhetoric
• [15:58] — The definition of genocide, UN standards, “intent”
• [18:09] — The assault on Rafah as turning point
• [22:33] — Personal impact, societal denial, reaction to “genocide” label
• [24:02] — Comparisons to US warfare—intent and aftermath
• [30:46] — Teaching about Holocaust, Nakba, atmosphere on US campuses
• [33:24] — What Zionism meant to Bartov; growing up in Israeli denial
• [36:51] — Hopes of Oslo, Rabin’s assassination, decline of liberal Zionism
• [39:50] — “Zionism is not reformable”
• [41:21] — The role of US pressure, need for “shock therapy”
• [42:26] — American views of Israel, antisemitism in the US

Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is somber, reflective, and unsparing, with Bartov displaying both rigorous academic detachment and raw personal grief. The tone is urgent—a call to recognize uncomfortable realities, with little illusion about the prospects for easy solutions but a clear insistence on the moral necessity of confronting them.

For Listeners

This episode provides a rare insider’s analysis—from someone who has lived every side of the Israeli experience—on the transformation of Zionism, the ongoing war in Gaza, and the agonizing recognition of genocide by a Holocaust scholar. Bartov’s arguments are at once analytical and deeply personal, making this conversation essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the current crossroad for Israel, Palestine, and Jewish identity in the 21st century.