A Historical Epic of the Chinese in America

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: A Historical Epic of the Chinese in America

Host: David Remnick
Guest: Michael Luo, Executive Editor at The New Yorker
Release Date: April 29, 2025

---

Introduction

In the April 29, 2025 episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick engages in a profound conversation with Michael Luo, an executive editor at The New Yorker and author of the compelling new book, "Strangers in the Exclusion, Belonging and the Epic Story of the Chinese in America." Luo delves into the intricate and often tumultuous history of Chinese immigration to the United States, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the challenges and triumphs experienced by Chinese Americans over nearly two centuries.

---

Motivation Behind the Book

David Remnick initiates the discussion by drawing a parallel between his own immigrant background and Luo’s Chinese American heritage. This personal connection sets the stage for Luo to explore why he chose to illuminate the Chinese American experience, an area often overshadowed in mainstream American history.

Michael Luo shares a pivotal moment from 2016 that propelled him into writing the book. He recounts an encounter where a woman muttered, "go back to China," which led him to reflect deeply on the pervasive sense of otherness felt by Asian Americans. This incident, combined with subsequent events like the COVID-19 pandemic and the tragic Atlanta spa shootings in 2021, underscored the urgency of understanding and documenting the historical struggles and resilience of the Chinese community in America.

[03:31] Michael Luo: "Back to your effing country."

This emotional exchange became a catalyst for Luo, inspiring him to write an open letter for The New York Times and eventually pursue a comprehensive historical narrative in his book.

---

Early Chinese Immigration: The Gold Rush Era

The conversation transitions to the origins of Chinese immigration in the mid-19th century, coinciding with the American Gold Rush. Luo explains that the allure of economic opportunity was a primary driver, albeit amidst significant regional turmoil in China, including the devastating Taiping Rebellion.

Michael Luo details how word of the Gold Rush likely spread through trans-Pacific communication channels, such as letters and newspapers, prompting mass migration from the Pearl River Delta region. He highlights the remarkable courage of young migrants, some as young as 13, who embarked on perilous journeys across the ocean to seek fortune.

[08:35] Michael Luo: "You know, in any kind of story of migration, there's a push and pull. There was unrest in China..."

He poignantly reflects on the generational gap by comparing his own children's experiences to those of the young immigrants from the 19th century.

[09:10] Michael Luo: "These people were coming from Southern China as teenagers. 13, 14, 15."

---

Economic Contributions and Rising Hostilities

Initially, Chinese immigrants were welcomed by certain business interests that valued their labor for projects like the construction of the transcontinental railroad. However, this economic reliance was short-lived, giving way to widespread hostility rooted in economic competition, racism, and cultural prejudices.

Michael Luo introduces Dennis Carney, a demagogic figure in the 1870s San Francisco, whose anti-Chinese rhetoric galvanized the Working Men's Party. Carney's slogan, "The Chinese must go," epitomized the nativist backlash against Chinese laborers, who were perceived as a threat to white working-class wages and employment.

[13:32] Michael Luo: "...Dennis Carney, who is a demagogue-like figure... He would draw thousands and he would end his speeches with this rallying cry, the Chinese must go."

This period marked the beginning of systemic exclusion and violence against Chinese communities, laying the groundwork for future discriminatory policies.

---

Frederick Douglass: An Unexpected Ally

A surprising yet inspiring aspect of Luo’s narrative is the role of Frederick Douglass, the renowned African American abolitionist, as a staunch defender of Chinese immigrants. Despite existing tensions between black and Chinese communities, Douglass advocated for the inclusion and rights of Chinese Americans, envisioning a united front against oppression.

Michael Luo recounts Douglass's 1867 speech in Boston, where he championed America's role as a beacon of unity and dignity, extending this vision to embrace Chinese immigrants.

[15:35] Michael Luo: "Frederick Douglass... he explicitly talked about this, quote, new race that is making its appearance within our borders and claiming attention."

Douglass posed rhetorical questions challenging Americans to extend citizenship rights to Chinese immigrants, emphasizing his belief in universal human rights and the potential for mutual enrichment.

[16:12] Michael Luo: "Would you have them naturalized and have them invested with all the rights of American citizenship? I would."

---

Modern Resonances: Echoes of the Past in Contemporary Immigration Debates

Luo draws poignant parallels between 19th-century anti-Chinese sentiments and today’s polarized immigration climate. He observes that the nativist rhetoric and economic anxieties fueling current immigration restrictions mirror historical patterns of exclusion and scapegoating.

[17:54] Michael Luo: "When I think about what history can tell us about this moment is it's actually hard when foreign people who speak a different language, look different, come to a society. And it's hard work to not be suspicious..."

He underscores the enduring relevance of historical lessons, advocating for empathy and understanding towards immigrant communities to counteract entrenched prejudice and systemic discrimination.

---

The "Stranger" Paradox

The title of Luo’s book, Strangers in the Land, emerges from a Supreme Court decision that infantilized Chinese immigrants by labeling them as outsiders incapable of assimilation. Luo explores this paradox, where both legal frameworks and societal perceptions have historically marginalized Chinese Americans, reinforcing their status as perpetual foreigners.

Interestingly, Luo notes that early Chinese immigrants themselves referred to their status as "strangers," seeking champions among white Americans to advocate for their rights and integration.

[20:35] Michael Luo: "Asian Americans are in some ways continue to be strangers. But the stranger label applies to many immigrant groups through history, including right now."

---

Conclusion: A Call for Inclusive History

Michael Luo's "Strangers in the Land" serves as a crucial reminder that Asian American history is an integral part of the broader American narrative. By illuminating the experiences of Chinese immigrants, Luo not only preserves a vital component of national history but also offers valuable insights into ongoing debates about immigration, identity, and belonging in the United States.

Through engaging storytelling and rigorous historical analysis, Luo challenges listeners to recognize and rectify the enduring legacy of exclusion, advocating for a more inclusive and empathetic understanding of America's diverse fabric.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Luo [03:31]: "Back to your effing country."
• Michael Luo [08:35]: "You know, in any kind of story of migration, there's a push and pull."
• Michael Luo [13:32]: "...Dennis Carney, who is a demagogue-like figure... He would draw thousands and he would end his speeches with this rallying cry, the Chinese must go."
• Michael Luo [15:35]: "Frederick Douglass... he explicitly talked about this, quote, new race that is making its appearance within our borders and claiming attention."
• Michael Luo [17:54]: "When I think about what history can tell us about this moment is it's actually hard when foreign people who speak a different language, look different, come to a society. And it's hard work to not be suspicious..."
• Michael Luo [20:35]: "Asian Americans are in some ways continue to be strangers. But the stranger label applies to many immigrant groups through history, including right now."

---

Final Thoughts

Michael Luo’s exploration of Chinese American history not only educates but also resonates deeply in today’s socio-political climate. By bridging past and present, Luo invites listeners to reflect on the persistent challenges of immigration and the universal quest for belonging and recognition within the American landscape.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[WNYC Announcer]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Michael Luo is an executive editor at the New Yorker, and his background is investigative reporting. He's a journalist steeped in the art of prying out secrets that someone is trying to keep hidden. But his new book takes a turn into history, into the past, in particular, the complicated history of Chinese immigration to America. Michael's book is called Strangers in the Exclusion, Belonging and the Epic Story of the Chinese in America. Now. My grandparents were Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and had a very typical late 19th century path to Ellis Island, Lower east side, and onward and onward. And it wasn't until I read Irving Howe's World of Our Fathers where I learned anything about this background. My grandparents never talked about it, which was, I think, pretty typical. You grew up in a Chinese American household, was immigration and as it were, the old country. Ever talked about?

[Michael Luo]

Not much, actually.

That's a great question for this book.

I had a chance to sit down.

And talk to my parents. And the book spans nearly 200 years and goes back really to the middle of the 19th century and this wave of Chinese migration that preceded my parents. My parents came post1965. You know, they were born in mainland China, fled to Taiwan when the Communists came, and came to the United States for graduate school.

And so their migration was a different.

Migration than the heart of my book.

But this history relates to their history. And this post1965migration kind of ends my book.

[David Remnick]

What made you decide to write this book? And what was the hole in the world that needed filling?

[Michael Luo]

Yeah, the moment that set me on the path to this book is something that happened to me in the fall of 2016. It was in some ways a typical moment that many Asian Americans have experienced, but it was also felt. It just left a really deep impression on me. It was a Sunday afternoon after church. A group of friends of ours, we were standing on a block on the Upper east side and an annoyed woman, kind of just annoyed that we were blocking the sidewalk, brushed past and muttered, go back to China. And what happened in this Particular moment was I kind of abandoned my daughter in the stroller and went and ran after her. And we kind of had this exchange on the street where she yelled, go.

Back to your effing country.

And in the adrenaline filled moment, I was, I kind of sputtered, I was born in this country. And we went back and we went inside the restaurant, I tweeted about the moment and it turned into this viral thing. And I ended up writing an open letter to this woman for the New York Times. For the New York Times. And it kind of generated almost like a week of conversation about Asian Americans and their place in the kind of racial milieu of the United States. This was the fall of 2016, just before Trumpism had been elected. You kind of felt this curtain of nativism descending. Obviously, it's been. A lot has happened since then. So that, that moment, what I wrote about in that open letter was about this kind of sense of otherizing that a lot of Asian Americans have experienced this kind of perpetual foreigner syndrome that.

A lot of people talk about.

And I was thinking about my kids, and I was born in the United States and my kids are two generations removed from my parents immigrant experience. And I felt this kind of sadness inside me about will they ever feel like they truly belong here in the United States? And then we had Covid and then the surge in attacks on Asians during that period and the Atlanta spa attacks particularly, that happened in the spring of 2021. Eight or nine people were killed, I think mostly Asian American women. And it was a white shooter. And it sparked this kind of moment, an awakening, I think, moment we've since moved on from as a country about anti Asian violence. And it was in that period I wrote a piece for the New Yorker about this history. I'm an educated person. I'm reasonably conscious of my Asian American identity, but I didn't know this history that is in this book. And the thing that really caught my attention was a passage in our history that historians called the driving out, which happened in the 1885, 1886 range, when nearly 200 communities in the American west physically, violently, in many cases, drove out the Chinese from their communities. And I wrote about this in this piece, and I talked about how this precarity of the Asian American experience is not new. And that historical exploration from that piece is what set me on. I'm going to write a book about this. Really? Yeah. So, you know, Asian American history is American history. And I want, you know, all the dads who are reading about, you know, World War II to want to read a book about this, who are interested in Civil War literature, to read about this different racial conflagration that was going on during the Civil War, after the Civil War on the West Coast.

[David Remnick]

Well, let's get to that. So now we're talking about the 1850s, 1860s. How did the first Chinese immigrants to this country even decide that coming to the US in particular was a great idea? What was compelling them to come to the United States? Was it the Gold Rush? What was it?

[Michael Luo]

Yeah, the Gold Rush is where this really begins.

It's not exactly clear what exactly was the chain of events, specifically of when people in southeastern China and the Pearl River Delta heard about the Gold Rush and started to come en masse to the United States. There is this maybe apocryphal, but it's kind of part of the lore that was passed down in the Chinese community. There was a story about a merchant who was here, apparently 1847ish. His name was Chun Ming, who had arrived in America around 1847. And he was among the people who went into the Sierra Nevada foothills with the Gold Rush. This would have been really early for a Chinese merchant to be in the United States, but that's how the story goes. And he wrote a letter to a friend back home named Chung Yum, a fellow villager from the Sanyi district of Guangdong Province, about the goal to be had in the minefields. And the story goes that Chung Yum told others about Chunming's good fortune and set off across the Pacific himself. There is a more verifiable fact about a ship that arrived in Hong Kong on Christmas Day in 1848 that contained gold dust from California. The Hudson Bay Company, which was a fur trading concern, had requested that British experts in China evaluate it. We also know that there were copies of a Hawaiian newspaper from Honolulu with news about the Gold Rush. And so this might have been how word spread.

And it was a very specific region.

In China where people were coming from. This was in the Pearl River Delta.

You know, in any kind of story of migration, there's a push and pull.

There was unrest in China. There was the Taiping Rebellion that was going on around this time, where millions of people were killed within Guangdong Province. There were some internecine conflicts that were going on. But there's also Canton, as it was called back then, or as it's known today. Guangzhou, was an important trading port, and there was a lot of exposure to the West.

And, you know, some of these stories that I looked into for this book of this 19th century migration. These people were coming from Southern China as teenagers. 13, 14, 15. I have a 16 year old daughter and an 11 year old daughter. I cannot imagine. I could not even conceive of the possibility of either of them getting on a boat in steerage weeks on the ocean.

[David Remnick]

You're worried about them getting on the subway.

[Michael Luo]

Exactly.

And the idea that there were 13 year olds, 14 year old boys who are sailing across the ocean and landing on these shores and making a living is just pretty extraordinary.

[David Remnick]

I'm speaking with Michael Luo about his new book, Strangers in the Land. We'll continue in a moment.

[WNYC Announcer]

WNYC Studios is supported by the United Nations Refugee Agency.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This is an especially terrible time to be a refugee because after fleeing war, violence and persecution, it seems like the world's capacity for compassion is running short. And as as the numbers of refugees globally reach catastrophic levels. UNHCR, the UN refugee agency, needs your support. In just 72 hours, your donation will deliver shelter, protection and food to refugees when they need it most. Your compassion today will make a life saving difference. Go to unrefugees.org donation to make your gift.

[Nicole Phelps]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Gobble, the meal kit delivery service created by busy professionals. For busy professionals, Gobble meal kits are pre prepped. That means less work, less waste and less mess in your kitchen while keeping all the love that makes a homemade meal special. In as little as 15 minutes each week, choose from over 30 meal options including lean and clean, vegetarian, classic and more recipes, and they'll deliver them right to your doorstep. Give Gobble a try today with a special offer. Visit gobble.com radiohour to get started with $120 off across your first four boxes. That's gobble.com radiohour.

[Podcast Host]

Have you ever wondered why we call French fries French fries? Or why something is the greatest thing since sliced bread? There are answers to those questions. Everything Everywhere Daily is a podcast for curious people who want to learn more about the world around them. Every day you'll learn something new about things you never knew you didn't know. Subjects include history, science, geography, mathematics and culture. If you're a curious person and want to learn more about the world you live in, just subscribe to Everything Everywhere Daily. Wherever you cast your pod.

[David Remnick]

The welcome initially was not hostile. It was relatively welcoming for economic reasons.

[Michael Luo]

Yeah, so the other big part of the story that people know about is the construction of the transcontinental railroad. And that came about a decade later after that initial push. But yes. There was a business class of people who welcomed Chinese arrivals because of what they saw that they could do for the state economically. That initial welcome, I think, was relatively short lived, like cynical even. Yeah, yeah. And you started to see there are horrific stories in the minefields about violence against Chinese in the 1850s, 1860s. Things really start to accelerate in the 1870s. And that relates to economics. I mean, there's also all the other factors that relate to bigotry in the United States. It relates to religion, it relates to race.

[David Remnick]

Well, one thing you do in an astonishing way, and it's part of the tension of reading this book, we begin to see a tension in this history between immigration, favored by business interests to keep labor costs down, and then a populist or a nativist movement that comes along and blames the immigrants for being paid less. And it has resonances of what we're seeing now in this country.

[Michael Luo]

Totally. Yeah. There's a figure named Dennis Carney, who is a demagogue like figure who started to do these speeches, these rallies in San Francis, mid-1870s. This is a time when San Francisco was basically a cauldron of unemployed white working men, as they were called. And he would draw thousands and he would end his speeches with this rallying cry, the Chinese must go. And he started a party called the Working Men's Party that had basically two principles. It was against kind of corporate power and the robber barons of that era. And it was a very anti Chinese in its orientation. That was really at the heart of what the Working Men's Party was.

[David Remnick]

And you write that one of the great defenders of Chinese arrivals, Chinese immigrants, is Frederick Douglass.

[Michael Luo]

Yes. I mean, it was in the late 1860s.

There was a treaty that was passed in 1868 called the Burlingame Treaty, that kind of opened up immigration between the two countries. It was around this time that Frederick Douglass was barnstorming around northern cities doing paid lectures. And it was in 1867 that he first tested out a speech in Boston on America's composite nationality. Douglass called on America to live up to its mission of serving as a, as he called it, a perfect national illustration of the unity and dignity of the human family. And he was saying that America was unique, he said, all the way from black to white with intermediate shades, which in the apocalyptic vision, no man can number. And he was saying that we had a chance to be a, you know, a model for the world.

And then he talked about the Chinese.

And he explicitly talked about this, quote, new race that is making its appearance within our borders and claiming attention. And he predicted that at some point in the future the Chinese population would number in the millions. And he just urged Americans, his fellow Americans, to embrace these new arrivals. And he has this kind of stirring admonition for Americans about Chinese immigration. Do you ask if I favor such immigration? I answer, I would. And then he's asking this kind of series of rhetorical questions.

Would you have them naturalized and have.

Them invested with all the rights of American citizenship? I would. Would you allow them to vote? I would. Would you allow them to hold office? I would. And he talks about how this comes from his belief in basic human rights, the right of locomotion, the right of migration, the right which belongs to no particular race, but belongs alike to all and to all alike. And, you know, his hope was for the Chinese to feel at home here, both for his sake and for ours.

It really is inspirational. I don't get too much into this in the book, but there actually is a little bit of a rivalry, tension between black Americans and Chinese. And like, there is this aspect of some black Americans were kind of saying, well, we're actually higher on the hierarchy. We're Christian, we're actually American, we're born here, go back generations. These are foreigners, they're heathens. There is an aspect of that. But Frederick Douglass, he wouldn't put up with it. No, he has a clarion voice and a very rare voice defending the Chinese.

[David Remnick]

But, Michael, it must affect you a lot to be writing this book and publishing this book at the very moment where the discussion about immigration is, to say the least, unbelievably heated. When the President of the United States makes it, I think you could fairly say his very first priority to minimize immigration to this country. There must be an emotional resonance for you as a writer and as a journalist, as a storyteller and as a human being to experience those things all at once.

[Michael Luo]

Totally. When I hear these things, there are just so many resonances with this history. And from the kind of populist reaction to immigration, there's a lot of similarities to the kind of combination of working class labor, small business owner. This kind of nimbus, I call it, of outrage, came from not just laborers, but from this kind of. Also small business owners. And so I see the same in the MAGA movement. And the way politicians, craven politicians talk, talk about immigrants today is it could be just torn from the 19th century. And the thing I think about, when I think about what history can tell us about this moment is it's actually hard when foreign people who speak a different language, look different, come to a society. And it's hard work to not be suspicious, to reach out, to think about them as human beings with, with families, aspirations, stories. The book is called Strangers in the Land. And I drew that from a Supreme Court decision that upheld one of the Chinese exclusion laws, where the Supreme Court Justice Field, who wrote this opinion, referred to the Chinese as strangers in the land. And he kind of talked about how they, by his perception, refused to assimilate, couldn't assimilate with the American people. So in that opinion, it's a derogatory expression. The Chinese themselves actually interestingly, early on referred to themselves as strangers. Strangers, yeah. And I'm not exactly sure of how the translation worked, but I found actually in one of those 1849, 1850 period when they were welcomed in San Francisco, they were looking for a white American to be kind of their champion for them. And they said to this person, they asked, we need a champion. We are strangers in the land. So that's interesting. The thing I say in the book though, and the thing that I'm interested in trying to convey in the book is the Chinese were strangers then. Asian Americans are in some ways continue to be strangers. But the stranger label applies to many immigrant groups through history, including right now. And I do think that the stranger label is still there.

[David Remnick]

Michael Luo, thank you so much.

[Michael Luo]

Thanks so much for having me, David.

[David Remnick]

Michael Uo is the author of Strangers in the Land. He's also an executive editor at the New Yorker and oversees our website. You can find his [e-mail] and of course you can always subscribe to the magazine there as well. New yorker.com I'm David Remnick and that's our program for this week. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

[WNYC Announcer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Toon Yards with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Bottin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parish, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[Nicole Phelps]

Chloe, you know what I think the world really needs?

[Sponsor Announcer]

What?

[Nicole Phelps]

Old fashioned. The people want it. The people have asked for it. The people are getting it.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes, everyone's in luck. I'm Nicole Phelps, the director of Vogue Runway and I'm excited to announce that the Run through is coming to Tuesdays. The run through is now going to be twice a week, every Tuesday. Join me and the Vogue Runway team as we dig into the latest fashion news. Thursdays will still be Chloe and Shoma.

[Nicole Phelps]

Talking about the latest in fashion and culture per usual. And Tuesdays more fashion, fashion, fashion.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The Run through with Vogue is available wherever you get your podcasts.