A Moderate Republican Wants to Primary Donald Trump in 2020

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: A Moderate Republican Wants to Primary Donald Trump in 2020
Date: March 1, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Featuring: Bill Weld, Evan Osnos, Rachel Syme

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on former Massachusetts governor Bill Weld, a moderate Republican planning to challenge Donald Trump in the 2020 Republican presidential primary. Host David Remnick interviews Weld about his motivations and strategies, delving into the state of the Republican Party and the challenges of running against an incumbent president with broad party support. The episode also features analysis of Michael Cohen's congressional testimony with New Yorker writer Evan Osnos, and concludes with a lighter segment on fashion and perfume with columnist Rachel Syme.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill Weld’s Unprecedented Primary Challenge to Trump

• Weld’s Political Identity:
  • A “New England moderate”—fiscally conservative, socially liberal.
  • Not moderate in his criticism of Trump.
• Motivation for Running:
  • Weld views Trump’s presidency as a “train wreck” domestically and internationally.
  • Weld feels compelled to challenge what he sees as a breakdown of legal norms and presidential comportment.
  • Quote (Weld, 01:15):

    "The truth is that we've wasted an enormous amount of time by humoring this president, indulging him in his narcissism and his compulsive, irrational behaviors.”

• Core Issues for Weld’s Campaign:
  • Trump’s foreign policy (insulting allies, favoring autocrats).
  • Undermining rule of law (not respecting Justice Department independence).
  • Climate change and environmental stewardship.
  • Opposition to withdrawal from trade treaties like the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
  • Concerns over the President’s divisive political style.
  • Quote (Weld, 02:51):

    "On the international front, the president has totally upended the correct order of things. He's insulting our allies. And, you know, his favorite foreign leaders are the ones who are autocratic or despotic."

• Viability of Challenge:
  • Weld acknowledges Trump’s high Republican approval ratings but notes the unpredictability of politics.
  • Weld remains optimistic that political conditions can change rapidly.
  • Quote (Weld, 04:18):

    "Six months is an eternity in politics...I think many people are making the mistake now of assuming that nothing is going to change..."

• Handling Trump’s Tactics:
  • Weld expects to be ignored, then ridiculed, but says he left his privacy behind long ago.
  • Quote (Weld, 05:10):

    "Probably ignoring as long as he can and then ridiculing. But look, I checked my privacy at the door a long time ago, decades ago."

• Purpose Beyond Protest:
  • Weld insists that his candidacy is not a "suicide mission," but a real campaign with intentions to win and serve the country.
  • He frames his leadership style as inclusive and contrasts it with Trump's divisive approach.
  • Quote (Weld, 06:00):

    "The point is to win the election. And, you know, I feel more than prepared to discharge the duties of that office."

• Fundraising and Donor Support:
  • Weld claims donors are interested, particularly because he’s running as a Republican.
  • Quote (Weld, 06:52):

    "Everybody that we've spoken to about this race has said, ooh, if you're running as an R, I'm in."

2. The Republican Party’s Rightward Shift

• Party Extremes & Gerrymandering:
  • Weld faults both parties for moving towards the extremes, attributing this in part to gerrymandering and the incentive to raise money through fear.
  • Quote (Weld, 07:41):

    "It's partly gerrymandering. It's partly that they all want to be re elected. And...the way to raise lots of money is to scare people."

  • Weld calls the current political climate a "sick situation."
• Racism & White Supremacist Strains:
  • Weld promises to publicize and denounce the party's tolerance of racist imagery, citing the Trump campaign's use of George Lincoln Rockwell (American Nazi Party founder) imagery as a dog whistle for white supremacists.
  • Boldly places Trump’s nationalism in historically dangerous company.
  • Quote (Weld, 09:23):

    "He makes no bones about the fact he says America first, which was Charles Lindbergh's fifth column before World War II...that's the Nationalist Workers Party."

3. Policy Differences: Environment and Climate

• Weld supports the Paris Climate Accords and ambitious U.S. commitments.
• Skeptical of progressive proposals like the Green New Deal for their cost, but emphasizes a proud environmental track record.
• Quote (Weld, 10:03):

  "I think we should rejoin the Paris Climate Accords, for openers, and adopt percentages that are consonant with our responsibility on the issue of climate."

• Weld touts his past work cleaning up Boston Harbor as an example of impactful environmental action.
• Quote (Weld, 10:45):

  "I've got to study that more than I have. It sounds pretty expensive...But I do think that, at bottom, Europe has its monuments and its cathedrals, and we've got our mountains and our valleys and our rivers and our streams, and we better damn well take care of them."

4. Campaign Prospects:

• Weld is banking on a strong showing in New Hampshire and New England.
• Lists western and Pacific states, as well as parts of the Rust Belt, as potentially receptive.
• Questions whether Trump will debate, suggesting it may only happen out of a desire to “crush” him.
• Quote (Weld, 11:35):

  "He might. You know, to show he could crush me like a bug."

5. Why Has Trump "Hung On" So Long?

• Weld references the "Fifth Avenue" shooting comment, seeing Trump as Icarus flying too close to the sun.
• Acknowledges Trump’s remarkable political resilience, but questions how long it can last.
• Quote (Weld, 12:58):

  "Well, he's had a great run being Icarus and flying near the sun, that's for sure. But, you know, the wax in Icarus wings melted and he plunged into the sea. You just don't know how long a charmed life is gonna keep on going in politics."

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Analysis Segment: Michael Cohen’s Testimony & Trump’s Washington with Evan Osnos

(Begins ~13:52)

• Context: The episode occurs during an extraordinary week in U.S. politics, with Michael Cohen (Trump’s former lawyer) testifying before Congress and the breakdown of a Trump-Kim summit in Hanoi.
• Collision of Events: Osnos draws connections between the two major stories—Cohen’s testimony and Trump’s North Korea diplomacy—both reflecting Trump’s reliance on personal persuasion over substance.
  • Quote (Osnos, 14:24):

    “They are both, in a way, about the collision of Donald Trump's ability to muscle a certain reality into existence.”

• Content of Cohen Testimony:
  • Cohen revealed Trump’s direct involvement in hush-money payments and indicated that Trump might have misrepresented assets on loan applications.
  • While not providing a "smoking gun" for removal, testimony opens avenues for further investigation, particularly regarding bank fraud.
  • Quote (Osnos, 16:34):

    “He was still facilitating the reimbursement of Michael Cohen for hush payments to the adult film star Stormy Daniels... It’s just his own signature now betrays that.”

• Political Consequences:
  • Cohen’s words carry weight because he was an insider-turned-critic (“the passion of the convert”).
  • The Democratic-controlled House now pursues these leads with increased determination.
• Outlook:
  • The process is far from over; more hearings and investigations likely.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bill Weld:

  • "They say the president has captured the Republican Party in Washington, as he himself might tweet. Sad. It’s even sadder that Republicans in Washington, many of them, exhibit all the symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome, identifying with their captor." (01:15)
  • "You know, I've been watching closely for some time... and I just can't sit quietly by anymore." (02:16)
  • "I think his advisors will say, ignore this fellow as long as you can, assuming I get in." (11:35)

• Evan Osnos:

  • “In some ways, that gives him credibility that Trump's fans... would never bestow on somebody who is just peering down on Trump from a television studio.” (15:52)
  • “We’ve now entered a new phase in which it turns out, as we know, it really matters who controls the House of Representatives.” (17:45)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:09-13:22: Main interview: David Remnick and Bill Weld—Trump primary challenge, the state of the GOP, and key issues
• 13:52-18:29: Analysis of Michael Cohen testimony with Evan Osnos
• 18:51-26:41: “Style and Substance” Segment: Rachel Syme on fashion memes, pockets in women’s clothes, and avant-garde perfumes

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Brief Summary: Fashion & Perfume with Rachel Syme (18:51–26:41)

• Conversation about a social media meme where you Google "Rihanna + your birthday" to find a fashion horoscope.
• Discussion of “Articles of Interest” podcast episode on the history and politics of pockets in clothing.
  • Quote (Remnick, 21:59):

    "This idea of who has access to the tools they need, who can walk through the world comfortably and securely. This is what we are talking about when we talk about pockets."

• Perfume trends—novelty and realism, including perfumes that smell like fresh-baked bread, cherry, gunpowder, and food.
• Lighthearted demonstration: Remnick tries Tom Ford’s “Lost Cherry” and Cire Trudon’s “Révolution.”
  • Quote (Remnick, 25:19):

    "It’s the best thing that's happened to me in weeks."

  • Quote (Syme, 26:03):

    "Gunpowder is your new signature scent."

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Takeaways

• Bill Weld is launching an uphill but principled campaign to return moderation and lawfulness to the Republican Party.
• He is deeply critical of Trump, both on policy and personal conduct, and sees Trumpism as an aberration and a symptom of deeper party malaise.
• Michael Cohen’s testimony marks a new phase in the investigations of Trump, with possible long-term implications for his legal and political future.
• The episode closes on a lighter note, exploring culture, fashion, and the surprising world of perfume.

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For further reading:

• The New Yorker Radio Hour
• Bill Weld’s campaign platform (archived)
• Evan Osnos’s reporting at The New Yorker
• Rachel Syme’s writing

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Transcript

[Narrator/Producer]

From One World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC studios.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Running in a primary election against a sitting president is, generally speaking, a futile effort to come up with a plausible primary challenge. You've got to think back pretty far, maybe to 1980, when Edward Kennedy challenged President Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination, and even then, Kennedy failed. But just about everything in the presidency of Donald Trump has been unprecedented. So we shouldn't be very surprised to see something unusual in the 2020 campaign. And it looks like Bill Weld is going to run against Donald Trump to become the Republican nominee. Weld is a lawyer and a former Justice Department official, and he served as governor of Massachusetts for much of the 1990s. In 2016, he ran as vice president on the Libertarian Party ticket. In national politics these days, we don't often see Republicans like Bill Weld anymore. He's a New England moderate that is fiscally conservative and socially liberal. But Weld is not at all moderate in his views on Donald Trump.

[Bill Weld]

They say the president has captured the Republican Party in Washington, as he himself might tweet. Sad. It's even sadder that Republicans in Washington, many of them, exhibit all the symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome, identifying with their captor. The truth is that we've wasted an enormous amount of time by humoring this president, indulging him in his narcissism and his compulsive, irrational behaviors.

[David Remnick]

I reached Bill Weld at his office in Boston last week. Governor, I don't mean to be flip, but what are you thinking? You've decided to run for president for the Republican Party against a sitting president, President Trump, and that presents all kinds of, let's just say, challenges and body blows to you, inevitably. Why are you doing this?

[Bill Weld]

Oh, I think it presents delightful possibilities.

[Evan Osnos]

You know, I've.

[Bill Weld]

I've been watching closely for some time. I was even on the ticket in the last election, so I've seen everything that's unfolded since then. The truth is, we know a lot more about Donald J. Trump and his style in public life than we did two years ago, and I just can't sit quietly by anymore and witness what he's doing both internationally and domestically. I think it's a train wreck.

[David Remnick]

Well, you say it's a train wreck. What are the bill of particulars that you plan to present as a candidate in the Republican Party?

[Bill Weld]

Well, I think that on the international front, the president has totally upended the correct order of things. He's insulting our allies. And, you know, his favorite foreign leaders are the ones who are autocratic or despotic. I think his interactions with the Justice Department, starting with Jim Comey, even Jeff Sessions, bespeak any notion of fidelity to law. The sign that's on the justice department building at 10th and Constitution in Washington, a government of laws and not of men. That's pretty deep in our history. And the president seems to have no interest in that. You know, there's just a lot of issues out there in addition to the bedrock issue of comportment office. There's, you know, there's climate change, there's treaties. I thought it was a blunder not to join the Trans Pacific Partnership, for example. The President of the United States has to take an oath to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. I don't think the president is complying with that oath.

[David Remnick]

Within the Republican Party, Donald Trump has an approval rating in the high 80s. So what gives you hope, running against a president who's, despite it all, extraordinarily popular with his base?

[Bill Weld]

Well, you know, they say six months is an eternity in politics, and if six months is an eternity, I don't know what two years is. You know, I think many people are making the mistake now of assuming that nothing is going to change, that no developments in the Justice Department will have any impact whatsoever, that the economy will change exactly as it is. There will be no blowups internationally. You know, those are not good assumptions.

[David Remnick]

Part of running against Donald Trump for office and part of being a member of the Fourth Estate and part of doing almost anything in opposition to or critical of the President is to be on the receiving end of his attacks, his tweets. Are you prepared to receive a nickname, and much worse from Donald Trump?

[Bill Weld]

Yeah, I am.

[David Remnick]

How do you think he'll go at you?

[Bill Weld]

Probably ignoring as long as he can and then ridiculing. But look, I checked my privacy at the door a long time ago, decades ago.

[David Remnick]

But this is different, isn't it? I mean, running against, you know, being in political opposition to, say, John Kerry in Massachusetts is a very different thing than running head to head against Donald Trump. You're not playing by the Marcus of Queensbury rules anymore?

[Bill Weld]

I don't know. I find it kind of appealing running against the incumbent here. I mean, there's so much that I want to do differently, and I find this particular race quite appealing in terms of, you know, how much there is to be done. I mean, we're looking at the Aegean.

[David Remnick]

Stables there now, are you, to mix the metaphor, Aegean stables. But is this a kind of suicide mission to in the service of the country?

[Bill Weld]

No, I mean, I do think it's in service of the country, but the point is to win the election. And, you know, I feel more than prepared to discharge the duties of that office. If I had to start Monday, I think I could. I think I know how to surround myself with good people. I did it in the U.S. attorney's office, the Justice Department. And as governor, I believe in unleashing everybody's energies. That's not the president's way. His way is to try to divide people, stir up the pot, set groups against each other. And that's the opposite of the duties of a President of the United States.

[David Remnick]

Governor, part of running for president, as you well know, running for anything, is the ability to raise money. Considering what the numbers are now, how are you going to raise money sufficient to the task?

[Bill Weld]

You know, everybody that we've spoken to about this race has said, ooh, if you're running as an R, I'm in. I'll host a party. I'm all in.

[David Remnick]

Can you talk about who.

[Bill Weld]

I'm not going to name names, but.

[David Remnick]

Are there billionaires out there that have decided that you're. You're the guy?

[Bill Weld]

Yeah, there, there are billionaires who, who lean. Lean my way. And I've spoken to some of them and I'll be speaking to more of them. I could never understand why some politicians, you know, Jack Kemp, George McGovern, they really don't care at all for the fundraising side of the business. I like it. I think it makes you sharpen your message. And if you can't sell yourself, what can you sell?

[David Remnick]

What's happened to your party? Why has it moved so far to the right and why has it been so obeisant to Donald Trump?

[Bill Weld]

You know, I don't really understand that. I do think that, that both parties have moved to the edges. It's partly gerrymandering. It's partly that they all want to be re elected. And the way to get reelected is to raise lots of money. And the way to raise lots of money is to scare people by saying you have to vote for the R party or the D Party, because otherwise the D Party, the R Party, might win. And then we would all be involved in irretrievable ruin. And if that sounds like a sick situation, it is. It's a sick situation.

[David Remnick]

I think some Republicans have comforted themselves by thinking that Donald Trump is an aberration within the Party. But other people think that he's the logical end result of decades of the party elite, the GOP party elite, whipping up the base, whether it was the Tea Party movement or other aspects of the party. And you've got this very, very strong racist strain that's come to the fore. How do you battle that as how do you kill it?

[Bill Weld]

Well, I'm going to publicize it. I'm going to remind everybody that during the 2016 campaign, the Trump campaign circulated images of George Lincoln Rockwell. Well, George Lincoln Rockwell was the founder of the American Nazi Party. And the white supremacists who saw those knew exactly who George Lincoln Rockwell was. And they heard the dog whistle loud and clear. It was almost like a clandestine campaign because so much of it was conducted with words that weren't uttered publicly.

[David Remnick]

Just to be clear, you're putting the President of the United States in the same basket as the late head of the American Nazi Party. Am I correct? That's tough stuff.

[Bill Weld]

I'm putting them in the same sentence. But, you know, I think the president, he makes no bones about the fact he says America first, which was Charles Lindbergh's fifth column before World War II. And he says, I'm a nationalist. Well, it is the party that took over in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. So that's the Nationalist Workers Party.

[David Remnick]

Governor, you've broken with the president and really the rest of the party. On climate change. What do you see as the best policy to reduce carbon emissions, considering the scale that they're on and the sense of emergency that surrounds it?

[Bill Weld]

Well, I think we should rejoin the Paris Climate Accords, for openers, and adopt percentages that are consonant with our responsibility on the issue of climate. There's a divide between the developed nations and lesser developed countries. I think what President Trump would like to do is say, well, we've gotten the benefits of the Industrial Revolution. Now, you have to agree, you and your rainforests, not to emit any carbon dioxide. And we don't care if you ever develop because we've got ours again. That's an unattractive point of view.

[David Remnick]

And what do you make of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's proposal for a Green New Deal?

[Bill Weld]

You know, I've got to study that more than I have. It sounds pretty expensive. And I think some of what's coming out of the. The left hand of the Democratic Party is probably more than I could sit still for. But I do think that, at bottom, Europe has its monuments and its cathedrals, and we've got our mountains and our valleys and our rivers and our streams, and we better damn well take care of them. And I've. You know, I. When I was U.S. attorney, I brought the suit to clean up Boston harbor. And it was very expensive, and it took years and years and years, but the harbor is now swimmable and fishable, which it sure wasn't when I started. That's the sort of thing we gotta do now.

[David Remnick]

Do you think that he'll debate you? Is there any chance in the world that he gets on a platform with you?

[Bill Weld]

He might. You know, to show he could crush me like a bug. I think his advisors will say, ignore this fellow as long as you can, assuming I get in.

[David Remnick]

And what's the scenario for not being ignored? It's winning New Hampshire or showing up in New Hampshire that you have some strength there. And then what?

[Bill Weld]

Well, if you show strength in New Hampshire, then the Trump operation, campaign operation, has to take you seriously. And I'm confident of doing well there. I think that all the New England states could be in play. The Mid Atlantic states, certainly California, Oregon, Washington, the states in the west, the Intermountain West. Those are all possibly, possibly friendly, possibly in play. And last would be the Rust Belt, the states that elected the president in 2016. And in several of those, there's been a turnaround. And the other party won everything in the 2018 election. So the situation may not be the same on the ground as it was in 2016.

[David Remnick]

Finally, Governor, maybe the truest thing the President has ever said is that he could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and get away with it. Why do you think he's managed to hang on so well, relatively so well, for so long?

[Bill Weld]

Well, he's had a great run being Icarus and flying near the sun, that's for sure. But, you know, the wax in Icarus wings melted and he plunged into the sea. You just don't know how long a charmed life is gonna keep on going in politics.

[David Remnick]

Governor Weld, thank you so much.

[Bill Weld]

Thank you, David. Always a pleasure.

[David Remnick]

Bill Weld is a former governor of Massachusetts and is running as a Republican for the presidency in 2020.

[Bill Weld]

Over the past two years, I have been smeared as a rat by the President of the United States. The truth is much different. And let me take a brief moment to introduce myself. My name is Michael Dean Cohen.

[Evan Osnos]

Hey there, Evan.

[David Remnick]

Ready?

[Evan Osnos]

I'm ready.

[David Remnick]

Evan Osnos, you've been writing about Washington for the New Yorker for years. You lived in China, covered North Korea and written about it. I have to think that last Wednesday There was a cosmic collision of your interests and events in the United States. You had the spectacle of Michael Cohen testifying in the House of Representatives and in all its lurid detail, and then just hours later, the collapse of a summit between the US President and the North Korean leader. What do you make of all this?

[Evan Osnos]

Well, this is what we call a full day in Washington, that's for sure. I think in a strange way, you have two events that are 8,000 miles apart but are connected. They are both, in a way, about the collision of Donald Trump's ability to muscle a certain reality into existence. And to some degree, he was doing that with North Korea as well. He was telling people that ultimately we would get to denuclearization, North Korea would give up this nuclear arsenal, which its intelligence apparatus has told them it will probably never give up. And he was hoping that by sheer force of personality and will, by declaring, declaring a great friendship and declaring a great relationship, that that might actually turn out to be true. And the reality was that North Korea was not willing to do what it was that he wanted him to do. And running, of course, in the background, looming over them, I think more in the foreground for him than the background was the fact that at home, American people were getting one of the most extraordinarily lurid and detailed descriptions of life with Donald Trump that we've ever heard. There was almost nothing like the Cohen testimony in the history of Donald Trump' moment in politics.

[David Remnick]

Well, what did Michael Cohen say that can change the mind of anybody that didn't believe all these things already?

[Evan Osnos]

In some ways, I think the potential value that he holds in shaping how Americans think about Donald Trump is that he speaks with the passion of the convert. He is somebody who believed in Donald Trump. He hitched his wagon, his soul, his everything to Donald Trump, and then watched his life unravel as a result. And in some ways, that gives him credibility that Trump's fans, his voters, would never bestow on somebody who is just peering down on Trump from a television studio in Washington and New York and saying that he is not fit to be president.

[David Remnick]

Well, what were the most compelling new leads to come out of the testimony?

[Evan Osnos]

There was nothing that came out of it that is immediately going to drive this man out of office. There's no question about that. But we now know, for instance, that he was more involved, personally involved to the degree of writing checks while in office. In the Oval Office, he was still facilitating the reimbursement of Michael Cohen for hush payments to the adult film star Stormy Daniels. This basically puts to rest any notion that, as the president once said, he had no idea about any payments. It's just his own signature now betrays that. And there's another big fact, this is a relatively new one that I think could end up being consequential, is that it appears that when Donald Trump talked about the size of his fortune, it wasn't just for vanity purposes. He may have also been doing this on paper in loan applications, for instance, when he was considering buying the Buffalo Bills, he, it appears, may have misstated his holdings to such a degree that that could begin to attract investigators into the subject of bank fraud. So that may be a new angle that he's going to have to contend with.

[David Remnick]

So this doesn't go away. This testimony leads to more testimony, more hearings, more jeopardy.

[Evan Osnos]

Absolutely. And more names, I'm afraid. We heard about his finance people. We heard about somebody named Matthew Calamari who may, in fact, become more consequential. So this process is at the beginning. We've now entered a new phase in which it turns out, as we know, it really matters who controls the House of Representatives. And those committees are now empowered by Democrats with a much greater sense of determination to try to persuade Americans with the voices of those who know Donald Trump best and who have worked by his side of what kind of president he is.

[David Remnick]

Evan Osnos is a staff writer, and you can read him on all things political@New Yorker.com Evan, thank you so much.

[Evan Osnos]

My pleasure. Thanks, David.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick, and that's almost it for today, but before we go, I want to introduce you to Rachel Syme.

[Rachel Syme]

How are you? I'm.

[David Remnick]

Good.

[Rachel Syme]

Morning.

[David Remnick]

I'm very excited about this because, as you know, my expertise is exactly this.

[Rachel Syme]

Yeah. I mean, you're so fashionable.

[David Remnick]

I like talking to Rachel because she writes a column for us about stuff that. Well, I've got to admit it, I'm a little oblivious to fashion, style, consumer culture. So Rachel's going to bring me up to speed on all the trends. Anyway, Rachel, I'm delighted you're here.

[Rachel Syme]

Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.

[David Remnick]

And, you know, usually we're talking about music and books and things, and I at least have a leg up somewhat. But now you're gonna bring me into a world I know so little about.

[Bill Weld]

How fun.

[David Remnick]

And you're gonna have some recommendations that I am champing at the bit to hear about. So what's the first?

[Rachel Syme]

So there's a meme, as fun as that is, that's been going around the Internet for the last week or two where you Google Rihanna and your birthday, and it's sort of like a special kind of horoscope where whatever she's wearing on your birthday, the first outfit that comes up sort of says something essential about your personality.

[David Remnick]

Can we do. Should I do a birthday?

[Rachel Syme]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Okay. October 29th. I won't tell you what year.

[Rachel Syme]

Yeah. So I'm so excited for you to do a close reading of this, but this is Rihanna in an AM she's at the AmfAR gala to celebrate Tom Ford. And she's in Tom Ford.

[David Remnick]

Okay. Whatever I say about this is gonna get me fired. So why don't I leave it to you?

[Rachel Syme]

Because I can describe it if you want.

[David Remnick]

I really wish you would.

[Rachel Syme]

So this was this era a few years back when Tom Ford was doing extremely revealing gowns. And I think what she has on is sort of a white Grecian column dress with a slit up the leg, sort of a thigh high stocking to.

[David Remnick]

What my grandmother would call up to her puppock.

[Rachel Syme]

Yep. Up to her pupp. And then she's wearing what I think the people in the biz call pasties in the decollette area.

[David Remnick]

What biz would that be? What biz do they call on?

[Rachel Syme]

Pasty fashion, burlesque. All of it together. And she has sort of this kind of neck collar that's either nun like or dominatrix like, depending on how you want to think about it. So I wonder what this says about you, David, if this is your horoscope. I mean, maybe it's just like risk taking. Boldness.

[David Remnick]

I'll go with boldness.

[Bill Weld]

Sure.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, it looks fabulous.

[Rachel Syme]

But I think the meme is really fun because I think it's this idea that this one person is a kind of cipher through understanding yourself. And she has so much fun with fashion. I mean, the thing about Rihanna is she's never had a boring outfit in her life.

[David Remnick]

What's next up?

[Rachel Syme]

I wanted to talk a little bit about a podcast that came out last year that was one of my very favorites that the fashion journalist and historian Avery Truffleman hosts called Articles of Interest. And it is part of this network, 99% invisible. That's kind of a design show where they go deep into the worlds of architecture and objects and their history. But they hadn't had a fashion show, so she piloted that for them. But my favorite episode and one I wanted to tell you about was the third, which was all about the history of pockets and clothing.

[David Remnick]

Man's great evolutionary advantage. Is the creation of tools. The problem is we're not marsupials. We need to carry them somehow. And this idea of who has access to the tools they need, who can walk through the world comfortably and securely. This is what we are talking about when we talk about pockets.

[Rachel Syme]

So she talks to fashion historians, curators, designers, people who are experts in menswear and womenswear, going all the way back saying, why did women's pockets become so small? Because there's become a kind of feminist discussion in fashion that surrounds pockets. That's. Does the dress have pockets or not? And if it does, it's pro woman.

[David Remnick]

I don't know how you live without them. We've gone from kangaroos to cargo shorts, and now they've disappeared.

[Rachel Syme]

Yeah. And it's about what you carry through the world, what you conceal. It's. There's so much going on with a pocket. And it was funny because when I was watching the Oscars, so many people were waiting for women to put their hand in their dress to show that it had a pocket, almost as a kind of sort of secret signifier that they knew what they were doing. Like, Olivia Colman's dress had pockets.

[David Remnick]

Now, you know who had pockets and look I thought looked fantastic. I'm not sure I could carry it off was Spike Lee.

[Rachel Syme]

I mean, he looked amazing. He had that Prince homage, and he had the gold Air Jordans that he had specifically made just for him.

[David Remnick]

And he was so nice to show him off. It was fantastic.

[Bill Weld]

Yeah.

[Rachel Syme]

And I love that Barbra Streisand wore a beret to a formal. No one else can get away with it. So the last thing I want to show you is perfume. So, you know, I'm a perfume obsessive, and I.

[David Remnick]

What does that mean to be a perfume obsessive?

[Rachel Syme]

I recently was a judge for something called the Arden Olfaction Awards, and I had to smell 200 perfumes.

[David Remnick]

Blind, isn't it kind of after a while, after the. After a few of them.

[Rachel Syme]

Well, they tell you when you become a judge, you're only allowed to smell five a day.

[David Remnick]

Ah.

[Rachel Syme]

Because they. Otherwise you'll blow out your sinus and not give everything its fair shake. So, anyways, I brought you two pretty interesting ones to smell, though, that are new. And there's this new trend in perfume that's verisimilitude, trying to smell like things that you would find in the world rather than just flowers or wood. It's this idea that you could recreate an actual thing. So I wanted to give you two that were new, that were like that. I mean, there are. There is a pizza perfume, David, if you so desire to smell like pizza. But I'm getting a little hungry already just thinking there's. There's all kinds of food perfumes. The gourmand category has exploded in recent years.

[David Remnick]

But.

[Rachel Syme]

And this is one of.

[David Remnick]

You're not pulling my leg.

[Rachel Syme]

Nope.

[David Remnick]

Really?

[Rachel Syme]

Yeah. I mean, there's.

[David Remnick]

It's like a French fries perfume.

[Rachel Syme]

There definitely is all of that. And those kind of fall into the novelty category. But on the more wearable end, there are perfumes that smell like fresh baked bread, which is a smell that everybody thinks they want to smell like. Like, it's, you know, like Hansel and Greta. Let's draw it down.

[David Remnick]

Reality. You smell it.

[Rachel Syme]

Reality. I think it's a little yeasty.

[David Remnick]

A little yeasty. It is.

[Rachel Syme]

Okay, so. But this one is kind of like that. So I'm a red bottle. Yeah, so it's a red bottle. It. Maroon bottle. It's a new perfume from Tom Ford called Lost Cherry, which was.

[David Remnick]

Let's do this.

[Rachel Syme]

Let's do it. So the idea is again with the verse. Militude and food.

[David Remnick]

I think this smells like one spritz.

[Rachel Syme]

Would have been enough cherry icing or an icy from the movie theater.

[David Remnick]

So I shall smell the rest of the day.

[Rachel Syme]

I know. I'm so sorry that I've done this to you.

[David Remnick]

It's the best thing that's happened to me in weeks.

[Rachel Syme]

Isn't it funny, though? I mean, it smells like twins flirt.

[David Remnick]

Okay, I'm in love with my left wrist.

[Rachel Syme]

So then. Okay, he's love with less cherry. And then this is from.

[David Remnick]

Let's keep that wrist over at bay.

[Rachel Syme]

This is from Siri Trud, which is a company that once only made very, very fancy candles that, you know, would. Would burn in designers homes. And then they branched out into perfume. And this one is called Revolution. And it.

[David Remnick]

Right, Rish, spritz away. Right?

[Rachel Syme]

It is. I'm doing one. It's supposed to smell.

[David Remnick]

Whoa.

[Rachel Syme]

Right?

[David Remnick]

Whoa. What is that?

[Rachel Syme]

Okay, so the. The French Revolution is the inspiration for this.

[David Remnick]

It smells like the French Revolution.

[Rachel Syme]

And the idea is gunpowder. And isn't that just what it smells like? Right.

[David Remnick]

I've got cherry on my left wrist and gunpowder on my right. I'm mushing together cherry.

[Rachel Syme]

Gunpowder is your new signature scent.

[David Remnick]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Syme]

But can you believe that that happened? I mean, it's asphalt. It's the kickback from a rifle.

[David Remnick]

It's what's in it.

[Rachel Syme]

You know, I think probably what you're smelling most is cade, which is like, it's kind of a leathery tar that kind of smells a little bit like that smoky ash that's at the bottom of a an ashtray.

[David Remnick]

By the way, the smell that's now overwhelming this office is beyond. Never apologize your olfactory environment for the full day. Wow. What a revelation. Rachel, thank you so much.

[Rachel Syme]

Thank you.

[David Remnick]

It's been a pleasure.

[Rachel Syme]

Yeah, thank you so much.

[David Remnick]

You can find everything Rachel Syme has written for [e-mail] I'm David Remnick. And that's it for today. Thanks for being with us. And if you've enjoyed the show, I just want to remind you you can subscribe to the podcast and catch up on anything you missed. See you next time.

[Narrator/Producer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Toon Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, Kalalea, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Louis Mitchell, Sarah Nix and Steven Valentino, with help from Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Turina Endowment Fund.