The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: "A Tumultuous Week in Impeachment, and Jill Lepore on Democracy in Peril"

Host: David Remnick
Date: January 31, 2020
Producer: WNYC Studios & The New Yorker

Overview

This episode captures a pivotal moment in U.S. history: the final days of President Donald Trump's first impeachment trial. The episode features on-the-ground reporting and candid conversations with key figures such as Senator Chris Coons of Delaware and Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California, offering direct insight into the contentious Senate proceedings. Renowned historian and New Yorker staff writer Jill Lepore joins to reflect on democracy’s fragility—both past and present—drawing historical parallels with the 1930s and exploring how civic discourse and institutional norms shape democratic resilience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State and Process of Trump’s Impeachment Trial

Interview with Senator Chris Coons and Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren; reporting by Susan Glasser

• Senate Dynamics & Lack of Public Outcry

  • There was a notable absence of mass public protests or constituent pressure compared to other recent political flashpoints (eg. Kavanaugh hearings, killing of Soleimani).
  • Senator Coons observes: “We haven't [received] thousands [of calls]. The fact that they feel that they know the outcome is really the thing… I know what's going to happen.” (03:30)
  • The general resignation to a foregone conclusion, with little expectation of witnesses being called or the outcome being swayed.

• Contention over Witnesses—Especially John Bolton

  • Senator Coons underscores the significance of Bolton’s potential testimony:

    “If what ends up happening after two days of questioning is that every one of my Republican colleagues votes for no more witnesses, no more documents, it'll be hard to reach any other conclusion than they just didn't want to know...” (04:29)

  • He strongly questions the rationale for not hearing Bolton, especially given the apparent relevance of his knowledge.

• Daily Life Inside the Senate Trial

  • Senator Coons describes camaraderie and tension among senators, with lighthearted moments—like note-passing with Amy Klobuchar—contrasted with the stress of high stakes for senators running for president who are trapped in Washington instead of campaigning. (05:35)
  • Glasser notes the granular details of the trial experience, such as senators’ beverage choices and cafeteria fare.

• Legal Arguments and the Impeachment Case

  • Senator Coons highlights the problematic legal positions taken by the President’s defense, notably Alan Dershowitz’s arguments:

    “It was designed to give them a hook to hang their hat on that says, yes, what the President did was wrong, but you can't impeach him for that.” (08:06)

  • He insists on the necessity of further witnesses and documents for transparency.

Congressional Perspective: Three Impeachments—Nixon, Clinton, Trump

Conversation with Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren (House Manager)

• Historical Comparisons

  • Lofgren:

    “There are some surprising similarities between Nixon and Trump. Nixon tried to cheat in an election and he covered it up. Trump tried to cheat in an election and covered it up. The differences are honestly, Nixon was more forthcoming with the Congress...” (10:06)

  • She highlights Trump’s refusal to allow any testimony or documents versus Nixon’s grudging compliance.

• Significance of Procedure and Precedent

  • Lofgren:

    “If the Senate declines to have documents and witnesses, that would be a radical departure from history and from precedent. It would also defeat the purposes I think they have, which is to find the truth.” (11:23)

  • Warns that allowing the executive to stonewall Congress would permanently erode checks and balances:

    “If the Senate allows it, it will forever change the relationship between the branches of government… Because there will never be a piece of information or a witness ever sent to Congress for an impeachment.” (16:13)

• The Dramatic Impact of John Bolton’s Revelations

  • Lofgren describes learning of Bolton’s manuscript as a “game changer,” likening it to Nixon’s public confession—yet notes the lack of subsequent consequences:

    “That is a game changer. That’s like when Nixon admitted everything Monday morning… Wow.” (12:21)

• Pragmatic Approach to the House Managers’ Argument

  • Lofgren aimed for an evidence-based, logical legal argument to guide senators:

    “This is a trial. And so… I think it’s helpful… to point that out in a very logical way that gives citations to actual facts and law that they can use…” (14:58)

Timestamps and Memorable Quotes

• [00:10] David Remnick:

  “If the president shot John Bolton in the middle of Fifth Avenue, it seems he wouldn't lose any voters. Not among the Republican senators voting in his impeachment trial anyway.”

• [04:29] Senator Chris Coons:

  "If what ends up happening after two days of questioning is that every one of my Republican colleagues votes for no more witnesses, no more documents, it'll be hard to reach any other conclusion than they just didn't want to know..."

• [08:06] Senator Chris Coons (on Alan Dershowitz):

  "It was designed to give them a hook to hang their hat on that says, yes, what the President did was wrong, but you can't impeach him for that."

• [10:06] Representative Zoe Lofgren:

  "Nixon tried to cheat in an election and he covered it up. Trump tried to cheat in an election and covered it up. The differences are... Nixon was more forthcoming with the Congress... Trump told every member of the executive branch not to testify. No documents, nothing."

• [16:13] Zoe Lofgren:

  “If the Senate allows it, it will forever change the relationship between the branches of government… There will never be a piece of information or a witness ever sent to Congress for an impeachment…”

Jill Lepore: Democracy in Peril—Perspectives from the Past

Interview with Jill Lepore, historian and staff writer, with David Remnick

Key Themes

• Parallels between the 1930s and Today

  • The threat to democracy in the 1930s arose from collapsing institutions, poverty, rising extremisms, and the allure of authoritarian ‘strongmen’.
  • Lepore:

    "...the staggering needs of mass society seemed in many parts of the world to just be not addressable by majority rule... there needed to be a strongman who could rescue starving populations from their suffering." (19:39)

• Civic Experimentation—America’s Town Meetings

  • Radio and live forums offered spaces for Americans to debate foundational questions, from universal health care to the meaning of democracy.
  • Lepore describes them as “corny,” yet essential to public participation:

    "They’d have these big questions, you know: should the United States have universal health insurance? ... And people are really kind of dedicating themselves, kind of struggling with, working their way through these really big questions." (23:29)

• Media, Information, and the Threat of Propaganda

  • Lepore connects Orson Welles’ “War of the Worlds” broadcast to the perils of misinformation and the responsibilities of citizenship:

    "If you think about what the implications are of a technology of communications, radio is invasive… It’s incredibly intimate... And Wells was kind of interested in saying… you have to actually be careful where you’re getting your information." (25:42)

• The Modern Democratic Slippage

  • Lepore discusses the Democracy Index’s assessment of the U.S. as a “flawed democracy” post-2016:

    “According to this index, the United States first fell out of that top tier category in 2016 and became a flawed democracy. And every year since 2016, the US rating has been worse.” (27:18)

  • The causes are structural—long-building inequality and increasing executive power—not merely the product of Trump’s presidency.

• Hopeful Lessons and Civic Responsibility

  • Lepore invokes philosopher Benedetto Croce:

    "Politics and government is not like the weather... You don't just sit around trying to decide, do I need an umbrella today? You actually go out and change the weather." (31:42)

  • She argues against “fashionable political despair,” reminding listeners:

    “Before 1965, we didn't even have voting rights in this country. What is the past that you think was so infinitely better than this moment?... Those conversations that you have about what's going on are what actually restores the democracy.” (32:45)

Timestamps and Notable Quotes

• [19:39] Jill Lepore: “The staggering needs of mass society seemed... not addressable by majority rule... there needed to be a strongman who could rescue starving populations from their suffering.”
• [23:29] Jill Lepore: “People are really kind of dedicating themselves, kind of struggling with, working their way through these really big questions.”
• [25:42] Jill Lepore: “Radio is invasive... a voice in your kitchen... You have to actually be careful where you’re getting your information.”
• [27:18] Jill Lepore: “The United States first fell out of that top tier [democracy] category in 2016 and became a flawed democracy. And every year since 2016, the US rating has been worse.”
• [31:42] Jill Lepore: “Politics and government is not like the weather... you actually go out and change the weather.”
• [32:45] Jill Lepore: “Before 1965, we didn't even have voting rights in this country. What is the past that you think was so infinitely better than this moment?... Those conversations... are what actually restores the democracy.”

Episode Structure & Timeline

• [00:00–02:18] Opening, context setting by Remnick and Glasser; snatches of senators’ comments.
• [02:18–08:43] Susan Glasser walks with Senator Chris Coons: inside look at Senate daily life and the impeachment process.
• [08:58–16:58] Interview with Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren: reflections on three impeachments and the erosion of checks and balances.
• [17:46–24:43] David Remnick & Jill Lepore: historical analysis of democracy’s crises, the power of public debate.
• [24:51–33:25] Media, misinformation (“War of the Worlds”), civic information literacy, the modern state of democracy, and philosophical reflections on hope and action.

Tone and Language

• The tone is analytical, informed, urgent, and at times wry—especially in David Remnick’s opening muse and Lepore’s references to “corny” 1930s radio.
• Both political guests are measured, candid, and focused on the gravity of constitutional process and history.
• The historical segment with Lepore is both sober and optimistic, blending warnings about decline with encouragement to participate and question.

Conclusion

This episode offers listeners a rare dual focus: granular, real-time reporting from inside the historic Senate impeachment trial, and a sweeping historical reflection on what democracy means at times of crisis. The voices of Senator Chris Coons and Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren illuminate the stakes and struggles of democratic accountability, while Jill Lepore provides much-needed context, hope, and a reminder of the enduring importance of civic discourse and collective action—now, as in the past.