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The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
00:20:47
The actress stars as Rose in a Broadway revival of “Gypsy.” She shares that, throughout her career, some people have been upset when she plays characters conceived for white actors.
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WNYC Studios
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Supported by Justin Wines. Since 1981, Justin has been producing their signature Bordeaux style wines from Paso Robles on California's Central Coast. With a rich history of accolades, Justin produces exceptional wines and is proud to be America's number one luxury Cabernet. Whether you're a first time wine drinker or a wine aficionado, Justin has a wine for every celebration and occasion. Visit justinwine.com and enter Radio 20 for 20% off your order.
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WNYC Studios
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New Yorker Radio Hour
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.
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David Remnick
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The show Gypsy, an early work by Stephen Sondheim, is sometimes called the greatest of American musicals. A new production on Broadway is a real event, and all the more so when a star like Audra McDonald is in the lead role of Rose, a complicated stage mother with outsized ambitions for her daughters. Rose has been called, and I think it's only half joking. The King Lear of musical theater. Audra McDonald has won six Tonys as an actor in plays as well as musicals, and she joined us at the New Yorker Festival in October as the cast of Gypsy was getting ready for previews. Here's staff writer Michael Schulman.
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Michael Schulman
Audra, thanks so much for being here. I know you're deep in rehearsal.
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Audra McDonald
Yeah, we're in week four of rehearsals right now.
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Michael Schulman
How's it going? What did you guys do? Like today?
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Audra McDonald
We started the day working on Everything's Coming Up Roses and then after lunch we did Rose's Turn. So that's how my day's gone today. I think it's pain. Some people can't even give it Away. This people's got it. And this becomes.
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Michael Schulman
That's intense.
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Audra McDonald
It's very intense. Very intense. Yeah.
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Michael Schulman
But, wow. Has this been a long dream of yours, goal of yours to play Rose, or was it something that came up more recently? Like, how did this start for you?
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Audra McDonald
I mean, was it a long time dream of mine? No, no. It's a show that I obviously grew up knowing and loving, and I was in it in my dinner theater in Fresno, California. I played one of Uncle Jocko's kitties. And, you know, I've seen, you know, the few iterations that I've been able to see, you know, obviously in the movie, the TV movie. And it really was a Thanksgiving dinner that I had probably about six years ago. And the late, great Gavin Creel, who's a very, very dear friend of ours, very, very, very. We were very close to him, and we usually spent Thanksgivings together. And he was there and he said, oh, I want to talk to you about something. I want to talk to you about something. And then he pulled me into the garage. He's like, here, come here, come here, come here. You need to play Rose in Gypsy. You got to do it. You just got to do it. Can you imagine a black woman? It has to be you. You got to do it. You got to do it. And I was like, what?
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Michael Schulman
You're crazy.
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Audra McDonald
He's like, you know, you have to do this. You have to do this. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. Yeah. You know, I could see how maybe it could be played by a black woman, and, yeah, that'd be a real challenge. And then just conversations kind of started, and Stephen Sondheim was obviously still alive at the time, and he was very supportive of the idea and said yes. And then we started down that long road, and it just took a long time for it all to come together, timing and whatnot.
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Michael Schulman
So then once you talked to Stephen Sondheim about it, what was that conversation like? Was it like you needed his blessing? How does that work?
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Audra McDonald
Sondheim, another one that I miss terribly. He's always been an incredible teacher and supporter, very supportive in my career, has always sort of like, offered suggestions and ideas, and he would come to all my shows and just be supportive. And whenever I was in any sort of performance involving his music, he was there and had his thoughts, and I just felt very supported by him. And so when it was brought up to him, he thought it was a great idea. And he said, I think that's terrific. And actually there was another show of his too. That, you know, he kind of wanted me to be a part of as well. And I was like, well, is it okay if we do this one first? He's like, whichever one you want to do first, that's fine with me.
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Michael Schulman
What's the other one?
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Audra McDonald
A little night music. Maybe someday.
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Michael Schulman
We'Ll be there.
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Audra McDonald
Let me get this one out of the way.
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Michael Schulman
You know, one thing that's always struck me about Gypsy is that she's lived this whole life before the show starts, and we don't know a ton about it. Like, she mentions that she's been married three times. Obviously she has two kids. And presumably she had some kind of, like, dreams that were thwarted. Cause she's ranting and raving about them at the end. But, like, do you, as part of this process, create a backstory for her? Is that important to you? Or is it just, like, you know, curtain up and she's a moving train?
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WNYC Studios
Oh, no, no, no.
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Audra McDonald
You have to, you know. You mean. The great thing about Gypsy is while it's based on, you know, the real life story of Gypsy Rosalie, it is very specifically on the libretto. The only way they were able to legally actually do it, because June Havoc almost tried to stop Arthur Lawrence and Jerome Robbins and Stephen Sondheim because she wasn't happy with the way she was being depicted in the show. And so the way that they were able to legally get beyond that was to call this a musical fable. And so it's suggested by her history. So obviously, I start with that as source material. You have to. And then I sort of build in. Okay, she can still be from Seattle. Of course there were black people in Seattle. Then, you know, there's enough actual history that I can then use based on Rose's life and what I know about life for black people at that time as well, and bring that into the story, too. It's not saying, ooh, we have to kind of make believe that there were black people performing in vaudeville at this time. We have to kind of make believe that there were black people in Seattle. There were black people who ended up becoming strippers or any of that. We don't have to make believe it actually happened. It actually existed. And so it's embodied. But I will say we're not changing a single solitary line in the show. Not a single solitary one. There's no need. And some of them actually hit in a different way, really. When you think about some of the lines coming out of a black woman, they hit in a different way in.
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Michael Schulman
2024, when this show was Announced earlier in the summer, there Was this John McWhorter op ed in the New York Times that, first of all, I can't think of another example of, like a New York Times column sort of taking issue with a Broadway production, like months before it's gone into rehearsal. But it was about this question of sort of rethinking Rose as a black character. He wrote, rose isn't just being played by a black actress. She's being played, it seems, as a black character. This is off for a few reasons. One is historical. In 1920s America, when the show is set, racism and segregation remained implacable forces in popular culture. And the only stardom a black Rose would have realistically sought for her kids would have been among black audiences. He says colorblind casting has become common, even fashionable, and that's a wonderful thing. But then he says recoding characters, at least historical characters as black, just because black people are playing them is just another kind of denial of racism. I mean, this is John McWhorter, the black intellectual, kind of like, speculating about what it might be like. If you want to rebut this column, you are welcome to. But I'm sort of curious about what conversations have been sparked with George, with the people putting on the show about, like, how do. Do you sort of square sort of things that don't historically maybe line up in a literal way?
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Audra McDonald
It's a musical fable. That's all I got. I have a lot more, but that's all I'll say. It's a musical fable. It's a fable. How do you square that? People just burst into song. Look, I mean, I have dealt with this my entire career. You know, people upset with me for, you know, that I was playing Carrie in Carousel, saying, well, she wouldn't have been black and da, da, da, da. There's a man who comes down from heaven with a star in his hand. People who are going to want to come and see the show and take the journey with us can take the journey. Those who want to intellectualize and make it about something else, they can do that, too. But that's what we're doing. We're telling the story.
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Michael Schulman
Amen. Well, you know, you brought up Carousel, which I think was a moment when you really burst into a lot of people's awareness. How old were you when you did carousel? I was 23, and it was right out of Juilliard. It was like a year or so. Yeah, it was such a rapid rise. You won a Tony Award very young. Had you been auditioning and stuff before then, waiting tables. What was like the moment before that?
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Audra McDonald
Like, yeah, I had gone to Juilliard because I was from Fresno and I wanted to be on Broadway. I've known that I wanted to be on Broadway since I was 9. And I moved to New York and I went to Juilliard because they accepted me. But I auditioned in the vocal department instead of in the acting department was probably what I should have done. But I just thought, well, I have a strong voice, so I'll do that. And so what I underestimated was how much I would be shoved in the classical direction vocally. And I wasn't really given the opportunity to take acting lessons, to take movement or diction like all the other acting students at Juilliard were doing. People like, actually, I was in school with Viola Davis. She was there at the same time as well, and other really wonderful people. But I was stuck. I was watching them do this and I wasn't. And here I was in New York at Juilliard. My address was literally Broadway. And I had never felt so far away from my goal, which was Broadway. So I left school. I like to joke that I did the four year program in five years. And I left Juilliard for a little while because I just couldn't handle it anymore. And one of the things I ended up doing while I was taking some time off was I auditioned for things and I got into the touring company of the Secret Garden. And so I went on the road with that. And then I came back and did the last two months of Secret Garden on Broadway and finished school at the same time. And then from that I went back out on the road and I got an agent. And my agent said, we've got this audition for you for Carousel when I marry Mr. Snow. Then it's off to home we'll go and both of us will look a little dreamy.
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David Remnick
Roger McDonald singing a bit from Carousel. And she's talking with the New Yorkers. Michael Schulman will continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
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New Yorker Radio Hour
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Justin Wines
The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Justin Wines. Since 1981, Justin has been producing their signature Bordeaux style wines from Paso Robles on California's Central coast. With a rich history of accolades, Justin produces exceptional wines and is proud to be America's number one luxury Cabernet. Whether you're a first time wine drinker or a wine aficionado, Justin has a wine for every celebration and occasion. Visit justinwine.com and enter Radio 20 for 20% off your order.
- [14:30]
WNYC Studios
Planet Money helps you understand the economy. We find the people at the center of the story.
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Audra McDonald
Garbage in New York that was like a controlled substance.
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WNYC Studios
We show you how money influences everything.
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Audra McDonald
Tell me what you like by telling me how you spend your money.
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WNYC Studios
And we dig until we get answers.
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Michael Schulman
I had a bad feeling you're gonna bring that up.
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WNYC Studios
Planet Money finds out. All you have to do is listen. The Planet Money podcast from npr.
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David Remnick
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Ramnick. Recently at the New Yorker Festival, the celebrated actress and singer Audra McDonald talked with our staff writer Michael Schulman. We'll return to that conversation now. Here's Michael Schulman.
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Michael Schulman
I mean, how much of a plan did you have? Because your career has in some ways been totally unprecedented in a couple ways. But like when you were a kid in Fresno doing like, you know, theater, like how much of a roadmap did you have for yourself about being a Broadway leading lady?
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Audra McDonald
I wasn't even thinking leading lady. I was, you know, a little black girl from Fresno, nine years old in this dinner theater, got to be Uncle Jocko's Kitty. I was, you know, a kid in the ensemble of hello Dolly. You know, I ended up, they cast me when I was 16 to play Eva Peron and Evita at the local dinner theater, which was a big scandal because they double cast the role and the other woman was a 23 or 24 year old white woman. And so this is Fresno land of like Devin Nunes Yeah, right. So, yeah. So people would call the box office and say, is the black or the white one on tonight? I'm not even kidding. But, you know, in my estimation, I just wanted to be on Broadway. I just wanted to do theater, and I wanted to be on Broadway. And I didn't care what I did as long as I got to be on Broadway. That was the goal, you know?
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Michael Schulman
And, you know, Gypsy is, among many other things, a show about motherhood, about being a parent. I'm curious about how your parents kind of guided your early interest in acting and theater.
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Audra McDonald
It was guided primarily as a means of sort of like, to be therapy for me because I was hyperactive child who was having a lot of problems in school, not socializing well, considered, very overdramatic and. But not functioning well, you know, and they were told, let's try ritalin. This was 1976, 77. Let's try Ritalin. And my parents thought, no, we don't want to. We don't. I don't. I'm not judging anybody who does do it. And my parents weren't either. They just said, we don't think that's right for our girl. But they knew that I liked to sing. And they had gone to see a show at this dinner theater and said, why don't you go and audition for that? And that lit me up.
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Michael Schulman
And I believe there was a role that they actually told you not to take when you were little.
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Audra McDonald
Yeah. So the dinner theater had their main stage where they would have the musicals, and then they had a smaller stage where they would do plays called the Second Space. And they were doing the Miracle Worker. And I auditioned and got cast as, like, sort of the servant black girl. Slave girl. I don't think she's a slave, but she's just a servant girl in the Miracle Worker. And I guess I just went and auditioned without telling my parents, whatever. And when I got cast, they said, you will absolutely not be playing that role. Absolutely not. And I was upset. And they said, you'll understand when you're older, but we don't want you doing that. And so they put their foot down. And I understand it. I understand why they did that. You know, they were. You know, my parents were educators. My dad ended up being associate superintendent of schools in Fresno, California, before he retired. And my mom worked at California State University for years. And, like, I remember trying to watch Little Rascals, and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, you're not watching that. You know, they, you know, pride in who I was and pride in being a black person and not demeaning myself in a society that, you know, sought to demean and separate and other black people was something they. They were very, very adamant about making sure that I had pride in myself in that way. And so, no, I remember trying to. Thinking about trying to audition for Showboat as well. And they were like, you ain't doing that. You can do any. Not that. I mean, again, wonderful musical. But my parents were like, there's other. You don't need to do that.
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Michael Schulman
There's a Sondheim song that you've kind of claimed over the years. The Glamorous Life from Alma Mike MUSIC.
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Audra McDonald
Ordinary mothers lead ordinary lives Keep the house and sweep the parlor Mend the clothes and tend the children Ordinary mothers, like ordinary wives make the beds and bake the pies and wither on.
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Michael Schulman
And it's not even the glamorous life that's in the show. It's like the secret one that was in the movie. In the movie, no one ever talks about Elizabeth Taylor. And it's, you know, kind of the inverse of Gypsy. It's, you know, not a stage mother driving her children in show business. It's a child whose mother is a great star. And she kind of sings about how she wishes, you know, her mother's off living the glamorous life. But you can tell, even though she doesn't realize that she's, you know, longing for her mom.
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Audra McDonald
Yeah.
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Michael Schulman
Why did that song become your go to song?
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Audra McDonald
For so many things, I think a couple reasons. But the main one is because I am a mother of two girls. I also have two stepsons, and I am that mom that is sometimes off, not necessarily leading what I call the glamorous life. For me, my life gets glamorous when I get to be home with my family. You know, sometimes I feel very guilty about being gone and being away. So the song speaks to those fears for me and what my children might actually think or feel in terms of wanting and needing me and missing me and not having me there. So I sing that song as therapy for my fears, I guess.
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Michael Schulman
Well, I'm sure it's also a way of projecting to them. Like, I see you. I understand what this might be like to have not just performing mom, but like, you know, it's a theater household.
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Audra McDonald
It's a theater house.
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Michael Schulman
It's a parent theater household. Actor household.
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Audra McDonald
Yes. And I have to say, my youngest one is most, you know. Cause our other kids are a product of. My husband is an actor, Will Swinson. And our, you know, our kids from our other marriage is a product of one performer and then someone who's not a performer. But our little one, poor thing, that's just a child of performers. DNA coming in on both sides. And our little one who just turned eight a couple days ago, we were at a get together and a friend of mine was also at this get together and he's also in Gypsy. And we were getting ready to start rehearsals and he went up to Sally and he's like, you know, I'm going to be working with your mom in Gypsy. And he said, is anything, what do you, what do you want to tell me? And she said, well, first of all, she's got a lot of vibrato.
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David Remnick
Audra McDonald on stage at the New Yorker Festival and she's starring in the revival of Gypsy which is opening on Broadway. She spoke with the New Yorker's Michael Schulman.
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Audra McDonald
What do you leave to your child when you're dead? Only whatever you put in its head. Things that your father and mother had said which were left to them too.
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David Remnick
That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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New Yorker Radio Hour
The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Bolton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer.
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Michael Schulman
And we had additional help this week.
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New Yorker Radio Hour
From Jake Loomis with guidance from Emily Bottine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parish, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett. Special thanks this week to Kathryn Sterling, Amanda Miller, Nico Brown and Michael Etherington. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.
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Audra McDonald
You've got to be carefully taught.
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