Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Ava DuVernay on “When They See Us,” About the Boys Who Became the Central Park Five

Date: June 4, 2019
Host: David Remnick, WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Guest: Ava DuVernay (filmmaker, creator of When They See Us)
Interviewer: Jelani Cobb (New Yorker staff writer)

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between filmmaker Ava DuVernay and New Yorker writer Jelani Cobb, focusing on DuVernay’s four-part miniseries When They See Us. The series chronicles the story of the five Black and Latino teenagers—later exonerated—who became known as the Central Park Five, after being wrongfully convicted of a brutal assault in 1989. The discussion unpacks the events surrounding the case, themes of systemic racism in the criminal justice system, and the artistic process behind the series. The episode concludes with a segment on the late poet Mary Oliver.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Events of April 19, 1989, and the Wrongful Conviction

• Ava DuVernay recounts the case:
  • Five Black and Latino boys were picked up in Central Park, initially on minor charges such as loitering or assembly.

    “It was a large group, 30 to 40 boys in the park... messing with bicyclists and harassing and catcalling bicyclists.” (02:05)

  • The next morning, a woman (Trisha Meili) is found brutally raped and near death. Police began connecting the two incidents without physical evidence.
  • Despite a lack of DNA, hair, or blood evidence linking the boys, they were heavily interrogated, deprived of basic needs, and coerced into false confessions.

    “They didn't know details of the jogger...Through multiple days of coercion, deprived food, bathroom breaks, parental supervision, the boys eventually ended up saying that they did it... in an attempt to just get home.” (02:42)

• Systemic failures and racism:
  • The city and national media labeled them a “wolf pack,” fueling public outrage and a rush to judgment.

    “The whole city of New York turned against them. The national press began writing about them as a wolf pack of wilding animals...” (03:18)

  • No physical evidence, and the boys had no connection to the victim, yet were convicted and imprisoned.

    “There was never any DNA evidence... no physical evidence tying the boys to Tricia Miley...” (03:52)

  • Sentences: Corey Wise tried as adult at age 16, sent to Rikers Island for 14 years; the rest served 5-8 years.

Timestamps

• DuVernay details the police narrative and lack of evidence: [03:52-04:51]
• Details on sentences: [04:52-05:03]

The Social and Media Context

• DuVernay and Cobb discuss the chaotic 1989 NYC context—high violent crime, high-profile victimization, and the racial tropes fueling the narrative.

  “There was an attempt to create some order, create some kind of framing device... to be able to get a win on the board because there was just so many losses.” (05:08)

  • Media often omitted “alleged” in references, portraying guilt as fact.

    "89% of the press coverage at that time from the major New York papers didn’t use the word 'alleged'. So it was a rush to judgment." (05:24)

Timestamps

• Social context and press analysis: [05:03-06:45]

Origins of When They See Us

• Raymond Santana, one of the exonerated men, reached out to DuVernay on Twitter after Selma.

  “Shortly after Selma 2015, I got a tweet saying, 'What is your next film after Selma? Central Park 5. Hashtag, fingers crossed.'” (06:54)

• The narrative rights were still available, allowing DuVernay to take on the project.

Timestamps

• The Twitter connection: [06:45-07:32]

Crafting the Story: Authenticity and Artistic Process

• DuVernay insisted on truthfulness in depicting the boys’ experiences and their mutual realization of being coerced into false confessions.

  “They speak in very detailed, specific, emotional ways about the first time they all met... making a pact... to never lie again.” (08:23)

• No topics were off-limits; interviewees were candid about trauma and personal stories, such as the story of Korey Wise’s trans sister.

  “They were very, very open.... There was never off limits, right? Just wasn't being presented...” (09:17)

• Casting was an immense task, needing to match boys to their adult counterparts for authenticity.

  “This is the biggest cast I’ve ever worked with. 179 cast members, 117 speaking parts.” (10:33) “I was just, at one point, just going in circles, just dreaming about boys and men and pairings and just panicking. But we got it done.” (11:03)

Timestamps

• Mutual coercion and pact: [07:32-09:13]
• Casting process: [10:17-11:18]

Structural and Thematic Choices

• DuVernay considers the work a film rather than a series, using filmic rhythm and tools.

  "Jelani, I'm a filmmaker, okay?... I didn't make this like a series. I made it like a film." (11:28)

• The structure intentionally follows the criminal justice system’s stages: police, trial, incarceration, post-incarceration.

  “The overall goal for me... was to tell the story of what it means to be criminalized in this country and how that happens.” (12:24) “The first part... police interaction... The second part... court, trial... The third part... juvenile detention and post-incarceration... The fourth piece... the incarceration experience itself, particularly solitary confinement.” (13:24)

Timestamps

• Film/artistic structure: [11:18-14:35]

Racial Politics and Media Representation

• The case exemplified how the system and media treat violence against white women differently compared to women of color.

  "They used the cipher of this kind of pristine white woman, to be honest with you, because we know that there were women of color who were... raped and attacked that very same week that had no press coverage at all." (16:24)

Ongoing Lack of Accountability

• No apology from police or prosecutors; the narrative remains uncorrected in official circles.

  "No, they've never said, 'Oh, yeah, that was wrong.' They just say Matias Reyes... was the sixth guy. It should have been Central Park 6." (17:22) “Sometimes you have to call a lie a lie. This whole thing was built on a lie. It was revealed to be a lie. These men have been exonerated. That's why I don't call them the Central Park Five. I call them the... Exonerated Five.” (18:15)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On coerced confessions:

  “They made us lie.” (07:51, paraphrased from dialogue)

• On exoneration and names:

  “They’re not the Central Park Five, you know, they’re Corey, Yusuf, Antron, Kevin, and Raymond. And they were boys with dreams, with families, with memory that we wanted to honor and recognize in this piece.” (19:12)

• On the criminal justice system:

  “The overall goal for me... was to tell the story of what it means to be criminalized in this country and how that happens.” (12:24)

• On why she did these stories:

  “No, it wasn’t close to me in terms of family, but it was all over my community... people who disappeared... people who were there one day and aren’t there the next day in my neighborhood.” (15:20)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:27–05:03 — DuVernay recounts the events and police actions of April 1989
• 05:08–06:45 — Discussion of New York’s context, crime rates, and racialized media coverage
• 06:45–07:32 — How Raymond Santana reached out to DuVernay
• 07:32–09:13 — The boys’ mutual realization, authenticity in storytelling
• 10:17–11:18 — DuVernay on casting and on-screen performances
• 11:18–14:35 — Artistic rendering and structural choices, paralleling 13th and Middle of Nowhere
• 16:03–17:18 — Why this case garnered outsized attention versus cases involving women of color
• 17:18–19:21 — No public apologies from officials, focus on exoneration and honoring the boys’ identities

Closing — Legacy and Reflection

DuVernay emphasizes the importance of showing not just the tragedy but the humanity of Corey, Yusuf, Antron, Kevin, and Raymond. The episode places When They See Us among her other works as both a narrative correction and a critique of systemic racism. The conversation layers personal, communal, and societal resonance, with DuVernay stressing the need to confront “the levers of the system that keep so many people oppressed” (13:24).

Bonus: Segment on Mary Oliver (Poet) [20:42–27:52]

The latter part of the episode features a tribute to poet Mary Oliver, with readings and commentary on her lasting impact and unique accessibility as a poet.

• Quote:

  “Attention is the beginning of devotion. That her poetic method as she presents it is very much about that kind of directed attention which presumably one could experience anywhere.” (David Haglund, 25:51)

For listeners seeking a comprehensive look at race, justice, artistry, and memory in American life, Ava DuVernay’s interview provides both an indictment of systemic failure and a testament to the resilience of the wronged.