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The New Yorker Radio Hour
Bernie Sanders Ascends, and a High School Simulates the Election
00:38:05
Bernie Sanders’s win in New Hampshire has established him as the Democratic Presidential front-runner. Centrist Democrats regard him not as a challenge but more like an existential threat: they assume that only a moderate—and certainly not a democratic socialist—can sway critical swing voters and win in November. Are they right? David Remnick speaks with Keith Ellison, the Minnesota Attorney General who served as co-chair of the Democratic National Committee after that organization infamously tried to spike Sanders’s candidacy in 2016. Ellison says that the clarity of Sanders’s mission and his appeal to economic problems can win over struggling voters in both parties. Then Nathaniel Rakich, a pollster for FiveThirtyEight, presents what the data indicates about Sanders’s chances. Plus, a civics project goes off the rails when high-school students run a simulation of the 2020 primaries.
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- [00:02]
Narrator/Announcer
From One World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So thank the people of New Hampshire.
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Keith Ellison
For a great victory tonight.
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David Remnick
Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Bernie Sanders right now is the front runner in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. For some in the party, this is some kind of nightmare. They say he's too far out to the left, out of touch with voters, that nominating Sanders is the best way to guarantee Donald Trump a second term. For many others in the Democratic coalition, Bernie Sanders isn't just a frontrunner. He's the very future of the party.
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Keith Ellison
In politics, I believe you make the odds. Your energy, your support can change the odds from looking bleak to looking pretty good.
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David Remnick
That's Keith Ellison. He served as the deputy chair of the Democratic National Committee before becoming the Attorney General of Minnesota, and he recently endorsed Bernie Sanders for president. I reached Keith Ellison in his office in Minneapolis.
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Keith Ellison
I just thought, you know, Bernie's political and economic program and his basic approach to organizing and the fact that he got arrested for civil rights protests made me think that he was. Had the right program and had the right approach to mass organization and organizing to move that program forward.
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David Remnick
He did surprisingly well in 2016, or at least he surprised a lot of people.
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Keith Ellison
Yeah, he did.
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David Remnick
But there were still a lot of voters there who thought, I don't know, this guy is too left, he's too radical, too ideological for me. Now it's four years later, and there are still a lot of people who seem to feel that way. And you see them voting for Klobuchar or Buttigieg. What's the argument you'd make to those people about why they shouldn't be afraid to vote for Bernie Sanders?
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Keith Ellison
Well, I mean, are they afraid of Franklin Roosevelt? I mean, in 1930s, some people thought a minimum wage, you know, the Wagner act, labor rights people thought that NLRB or rural electrification was so radical. Our Social Security, now we take these things as, like, basics. In 1968, 17 different states had it to be illegal for a black person to marry a white person. Now people don't bat an eye. A few years ago, we thought gay marriage was an impossibility. And one day we're going to take Medicare for all as a basic paid family medical leave. We're going to say, yeah, this is how civilized societies are organized.
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David Remnick
What do you say to the voters who say, yeah, okay, Franklin Roosevelt always called himself a liberal, not a socialist, which is a fact. This guy, he caucuses with the Democrats, but he's an independent.
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Keith Ellison
I will tell you that I do reject this idea that Bernie's not a Democrat, because at the end of the day, what is a Democratic Party other than the values that it stands for? The dignity of work, the dignity of labor, civil and human rights for everybody, a fair economy, social inclusion. And who exemplifies that better than Bernie? Right. There are a number of people who are, quote, unquote, Democrats who do not vote with the Democratic mainstream nearly as often as Bernie does. He's taken on leadership within the Senate Democratic caucus in terms of outreach and engagement. And I can tell you, as a member of Congress for 12 years, there's nobody who doubts Bernie's commitment to Democratic values or even working with Democratic colleagues. So I think that's a red herring. You know, I really do.
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David Remnick
Mr. Ellison, the theory of the case in the sort of Klobuchar camp and the Buttigieg camp is the following. That this race is going to come down to a handful of states, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, and so on and so forth. And that their ability to win in those states is way higher than Bernie Sanders. You obviously disagree. Bernie Sanders obviously disagrees. What's your theory of the case?
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Keith Ellison
For a specific reason, because I don't think your average voter thinks, oh, is this left or is this right? Is this conservative or is this liberal? What they ask themselves is, can I afford this or not? If you go to farmers in Ohio and you say, you know what? You worry about your dairy farm, we'll worry about you getting health care, some of them are going to say, that sounds all right to me. I've always wanted to keep my farm. I'm not sure we could even survive if I had Medicare for all that would change my life. I mean, you go to those same dairy farmers and you say, you know what? We're going to get tough on immigrants. And some of them, dairy farmers are going to tell you who's going to milk these cows if you kick Jose and Yolanda out of here. How? How am I going to make this farm work? People do not make 40,000 foot ideological decisions. People are like, I don't know what you're talking about. What I'm talking about is keeping my farm. I'm talking about keeping this factory open. And that is where I think Bernie really sells. Even in places that we think might be more attractive to a quote, unquote centrist, the people there may have a more socially traditional way of life. That doesn't mean that they're not hurting economically. I'm telling you, they're going to listen to a leader who says, you know, we're going to actually try to solve some problems. We got. I got something for you. We're going to do real less vacation. Somebody might say, oh, that's socialism. To the farmer who got, who benefited from that program. They say, hey, I can turn the lights on in my farmhouse, whereas before I couldn't.
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David Remnick
You are intimately familiar with Bernie Sanders and the Bernie Sanders campaign of 2016. How has he changed in those four years? How has the campaign changed?
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Keith Ellison
Well, I think that the campaign is far more sophisticated than it used to be. Bernie is better known than he was before. Bernie's philosophy has soaked in and actually become really mainstream. I mean, and if you watch those debates, man, the question wasn't, well, what should we do about health care? The question was, well, is Bernie's idea perfect or does it need some refinement? Elizabeth said, yeah, well, you know, here's how we pay for it. And then Pete says, oh, well, I'm up for it, but I'm for this other option. And everybody else is sort of like making a refinement on Bernie's ideas. Bernie has truly captured the ideological victory here. And you can. It's not just on Medicare fraud. It's also on free college. It's also on the whole marijuana discussion. I mean, Bernie has changed the landscape in terms of what issues it is possible to even be for.
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David Remnick
Why did he capture the moment and not Elizabeth Warren? They were very, very similar.
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Keith Ellison
Well, I think that there are essentially two reasons. One is that Bernie. I mean, you can click up old photos of Bernie, and here he is being dragged off because he's protesting in favor of fair housing in Chicago. Bernie just has a. A level of credibility. I mean, he is for what he's for. I mean, people hear politicians today. I'm for something. Yesterday I wasn't. When it wasn't popular, Bernie's like, you know, popular, unpopular. Bernie Sanders is Bernie Sanders through and through. And in the meat grinder, which is Washington, you know, you need somebody who's going to stay who they are, you know, So I think that Elizabeth Warren just plain old doesn't have that clanic kind of history. You know, I also think that Bernie has really deepened his organizational. I mean, he really believes in organizing in a way, not just for a campaign, but for social change. And I think he says quite often that if you're going to make changes that are going to truly increase the wealth and income of poor and working class people. You will need a sustained mass movement to drive that change. And I don't know if Elizabeth has spoken to those issues in quite the same convincing, compelling. But I gotta tell you, I'm a big fat fan of Elizabeth Warren. I think she's awesome person and I and she has done a lot for this country and this race.
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David Remnick
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.
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Keith Ellison
Anytime, man.
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David Remnick
Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. A debate, a real divide is coming into view. On one side, you've got supporters saying that Bernie Sanders is the progressive future of the Democratic Party. And on the other, you've got centrists and party elders saying that Sanders is inevitably going to lead to a disastrous loss in November. Nathaniel Rakic is an election analyst for the Data news site FiveThirtyEight. And he spends most of his time studying polls and trying to figure out what exactly voters actually think. Nathaniel, unlike the vote counting catastrophe in Iowa, I think we now know who's won the New Hampshire primary. Tell me about the shape of that win for Bernie Sanders. Did he perform as forecasted? Did he exceed expectations or did he come up short?
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Nathaniel Rakic
He did come a little bit short of what we at FiveThirtyEight were predicting. But I don't really want to oversell that or read too much into it. I don't really see it as a sign of weakness. I know a lot of people are talking about, oh, he wants 60% of the vote in New Hampshire in 2016, he's from a neighboring state, he should have done better than this. I think that's a little bit disingenuous. In 2016, obviously it was a two candidate field. You're not going to be able to get 60% of the vote in a five bazillion way field the way that it is right now. Plus the fact the electorate is different, it's a different composition, the electorate. In 2016 you had a contested Republican primary. This year, you didn't really. And so maybe some of the folks who are more moderate, maybe Republican leaning, maybe wanted to jump into the Democratic primary instead voted for somebody like Buttigieg who has more of a unity message. People shouldn't read too much into it. This was a expected but solid win for Bernie Sanders in New Hampshire.
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David Remnick
Now, when you look at the numbers and the polling data, who do you think poses the biggest threat to Sanders being the eventual Democratic nominee? Is it clearly Pete Buttigieg or is there a more complicated answer to that?
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Nathaniel Rakic
No, I actually don't think it's Pete Buttigieg.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
At all.
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Nathaniel Rakic
In particular, his struggles with non white voters. Yeah, I think if I had to choose one other candidate, it would be Biden. He is still second in the national polls. He still probably is looking good in several Super Tuesday states, despite the miserable.
- [10:58]
David Remnick
Performance in Iowa and even worse in New Hampshire.
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Nathaniel Rakic
Those two states were never demographically great fits for him. I think that if the first two states had been Nevada and South Carolina, we'd be having a very different conversation, frankly. And a lot of that is just pure luck. That said, I do think that with every kind of unsettled results we get. So for instance, in Iowa, I think you had five different candidates getting national delegates. In New Hampshire, it looks like it's going to be three. Every state that votes, that gives delegates in a very scattershot way increases the chances that there's going to be a contested convention, which is honestly almost as likely as an outright Sanders nomination at this point.
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David Remnick
Just a couple of weeks ago, the Atlantic ran an op ed titled Bernie Can't Win. And a couple of weeks before that, the New York Times ran an op ed titled of course Bernie Can Win. According to the data, which of those op EDS is correct?
- [11:53]
Nathaniel Rakic
Of course Bernie can win. You know, look, he won the New Hampshire primary. He won the most votes in the Iowa caucuses. I believe the only candidate to win the nomination without winning either Iowa or New Hampshire was Bill Clinton in 1992. Sanders, in many ways, perhaps not ideologically, but resembles Donald Trump in that he is a factional candidate with strong support, very passionate supporters among a certain part of the party. And a lot of people assumed in 2016 that Trump wouldn't be able to expand that support, but of course he was able to do so. And I think that that's true of Sanders. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for this idea that he has a ceiling of support. He's popular, the overall party. I think his approval rating within the Democratic Party is at somewhere like 70%. So it's not like there's a huge block of anti Sanders voters out there.
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David Remnick
Let's imagine Bernie is the eventual nominee of the Democratic Party. How does he do in the polls when stacked up against Donald Trump?
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Nathaniel Rakic
You know, I want to start off with the caveat that early general election polls have not been very accurate historically. That said, you know, to the extent that they do mean something, you know, Sanders does okay, but really all candidates do fairly similarly, I think, as a result of our polarized environment right now.
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David Remnick
But that's a popular vote assessment, right? It's not a state by state assessment of how the Electoral College would come out.
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Nathaniel Rakic
Right. So some, you know, sometimes you'll see a poll of, you know, Florida specifically that shows a head to head matchup between them. But yeah, I'm talking right now about national polls.
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David Remnick
So Bernie Sanders, when he answers the question of beating or not beating Trump in the general election, his theory of the case is that he is not so much running as a candidate as the leader of a movement, and that this movement will bring out unlikely voters not only in states like New York and California, but it will also bring over voters in the essential counties in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and Michigan. And the theory of the case of his opponents is that Bernie will be painted as a left wing ideologue to such a degree that there's no way he will get those votes in the crucial states and he will lose an Electoral College to Donald Trump. How do you see the numbers going? And I know it's early.
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Nathaniel Rakic
Look, I think that historically speaking, all other things being equal, more moderate candidates or candidates basically closer to the median voter have performed a bit better than more ideological candidates. That said, there is a lot of political science evidence that that gap is decreasing and may even be gone now, again because of the polarization. People basically are like, I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat and I'm going to vote for this person because I hate the other side so much. On the other hand, I think that Sanders makes a good point that there are clearly voters that he has turned out in the 2016 election in who wouldn't be ordinary voters, younger voters in particular. He's very popular among. I think it's too early to know whether he's turning out those same people here in 2020, again, because of polarization. His kind of left wing ideas wouldn't necessarily hurt him that much, but say they hurt him by three points in some of the suburban counties in say, Pennsylvania or something like that.
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David Remnick
Let's look at those key states for 2020. Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, even Ohio. Can Sanders win those states?
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Nathaniel Rakic
Yeah. You know, the national political environment is the most important factor for that right now. It looks like the environment leans Democratic by a few points, maybe four or five. It's enough to put those states into play. In particular, I think, about Wisconsin and Michigan, he does have a good argument that he would be able to appeal to a lot of the people who voted for Trump, not necessarily out of ideological agreement with him, although maybe they do agree with him on things like trade, but because they just feel like the system isn't working and they want to take a stab at something kind of at a radical departure. And Sanders would certainly represent that. I think it is harder to make the case that he would be able to win places like Arizona, Texas, places where kind of affluent suburban voters have put those states into play for Democrats.
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David Remnick
You know, Donald Trump has been in office now for more than three years, and his base is as solid as solid can be. But he has never cracked 50% that I know of in job approval ratings. And yet Democratic voters and many independents who dislike him are not only terrified that Trump will win, some are even resigned to the idea. How do you answer that?
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Nathaniel Rakic
It's true that Trump has a very poor approval rating historically for president. Basically, Gerald Ford was the only president with a worse approval rating. But on the other hand, it's certainly possible that he'll win again, going back to polarization. So right now, in our approval rating average, Trump has an almost 44% approval rating, which is actually among the highest that he has had. And if you were to take that literally, he has a 44% approval rating and a 52% disapproval rating. Obviously, he would lose the election if those were the final vote totals. But I think that you do have to factor in the fact that this is a 5050 Democratic Republican country. He'll probably over perform his approval rating a little bit. And once you start getting into the 47%, 48% territory, that's when you start to wonder, well, even if he loses the popular vote again, the Electoral College could still help him out because there are several states that are just a little bit Republican leaning and he could win those states and lose the national popular vote and still be elected president.
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David Remnick
Thank you very much, Nathaniel.
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Nathaniel Rakic
All right. Thank you, David.
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David Remnick
Nathaniel Rakic of FiveThirtyEight. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with much more to come. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Josh Rothman is an editor at the New Yorker, and he's been spending a lot of time in the last few months in high school.
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Josh Rothman
So we're at Townsend Harris High School in Queens, and this is an amazing school. It's like one of the best high schools in New York City. We're in the elevator and we've just arrived on the day that the Townsend Harris presidential election simulation is kicking off.
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David Remnick
This election simulation Josh is talking about is a pretty big deal at Townsend Harris. The school has been doing it for 25 years. All the kids in the senior class participate and they play different roles. Candidates, journalists, pundits, even super PACs. And then the entire school gets together and votes.
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Josh Rothman
The goal is to try to get the whole political reality and compress it down into something the size of a high school. And this is our third year going back. So I love coming back to Townsend Harris to see the election simulation. It's a little freaky because you're seeing our political craziness reflected in, you know, these kids who are encountering it for the first time. But it's also, you know, really great to see how fully and creatively they inhabit the roles that they've been assigned.
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
We have to put our foot down.
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Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
And say that our democracy is not for sale. My name is Elizabeth Warren.
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I know what's broken, and I got.
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Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
A plan to fix it. And that's why you should vote for me on election day. Thank you.
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Josh Rothman
The students started their campaigns in September, right after school started. Hi. How are you?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Okay.
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Keith Ellison
Who are you?
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I'm Ms. Kamala Harris.
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Nathaniel Rakic
That's awesome.
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Josh Rothman
What do you think about the real Kamala Harris?
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So from what I know of her, I think she's a pretty rad dude.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
All right, Sy, who's up next?
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Josh Rothman
Bernie Sanders. Is this guy still alive?
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Keith Ellison
All right, Colonel Sanders, come on up.
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
We will have Medicare for all. I will fight for you, for your children, and every American under my presidency.
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Josh Rothman
So right now, they're running the 2020 primaries, Democratic and Republican, and every candidate has a full staff and has to raise money, has a war chest, puts out ads just like a real campaign.
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Jamie Baranoff
Hi, I'm Jamie Baranoff. I am the election simulation coordinator. I'm also a teacher at Townsend Harris.
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Josh Rothman
So you guys have a crazy year of to simulate?
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Jamie Baranoff
I think we do. Yeah. So, you know, the number one rule we say of the simulation is keep it as real as possible. But certainly when we have a Trump, I encourage students to kind of use their best judgment. So I feel like, personally, if he says it in the real world, you can say it in the simulation. Wait till you see the boy who's playing Trump.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Good morning, America. Are we recording this live? Good morning, America. How's it going, everybody? My name is Donald J. Trump.
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Josh Rothman
So when Trump was new and we covered the simulation in 2015, no one had seen Donald Trump as a candidate before. You know, everyone was trying to figure out, it was clear, like, how to be Trump. And the way that the first two students did it was they were really transgressive. They said and did shocking things, and they got in trouble with their teachers for it like, you know, one year, one of the students who played Trump in this debate accused Hillary of, quote, PMSing. And it was really bad. It was like, you know, everyone couldn't believe that he had said that. And it was. It was bouncing off of what our actual president said about Megyn Kelly. So this is the third student that I've seen play Donald Trump, and this year he's being played by a senior named Togai.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Look, you can impeach winners. My office has been winning for the past four years. All right? They can try what they want. You can't impeach a winner.
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Josh Rothman
So what do you think about your rivals in this?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Like, all right, so I think it's boring. Bill Weld and city Mark Sanford. I don't remember much about Weld. We had a debate once. I fell asleep. And city Mark Sanford. I can't understand any of his policies. It's a shame. So I can't tell you much about my rivals.
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Josh Rothman
I've wanted to talk to Togai. Not in character as Trump. Can I ask you as you.
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Oh, yeah. Oh, thank God. Oh, you don't understand how hard it is Straight face doing that, man.
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Josh Rothman
What do you think of Trump in real life?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I think, you know, most of what he does is so purposefully, you know, controversial. Right. I think that's why he won in 2016.
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Josh Rothman
So is that your strategy in the simulation?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I mean, yeah. I mean, like, my. My idea is the only way I'm gonna win here is to just parody, right? In preparation. I watch Alec Baldwin for a couple weeks to get into the voice, the mannerisms, you know, the hand motions, China, all this sort of stuff. It's all in, you know, just watching what's been come before and bringing it to Townsend Harris, you know, here to put on the show.
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Josh Rothman
You know, Townsend Harris, it's a pretty liberal school. It's really diverse. It's a lot of kids from immigrant families, students of color. You just really want to know what are they going to think of Donald Trump?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
For the past four years, I, Donald J. Trump, have proven that my administration is an administration of winners. All right, what does that mean? Let's just look at the facts, guys. Look at the facts. I put hundreds and thousands of Americans back into jobs, back into the coal mines, increasing our energy levels.
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Keith Ellison
Right?
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Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
We have more energy, and we're making a huge economy, guys. Huge. All right? And not only is my administration amazing, I also have the most beautiful family. Guys, guys. The wonderful Melania and the very, very beautiful Ivanka Trump. I love my Daughter. I love my daughter so much. Beautifully. Ivanka Trump here, guys. It looks like we've got a wall to build. All right? That can only happen if you vote for Donald Trump for re election in 2020, guys. All right, we got a wall. Remember? Let's keep America great, everybody.
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Josh Rothman
So, yeah, he was. He was a hit, I think it's safe to say so. At the kickoff rally, all the candidates are there, and they're all trying to make an impression. And another student who really connected was a senior named Justin, who is playing Pete Buttigieg.
- [25:07]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Hey, Townsend, I'm Mayor Pete, and I want to be your next president. Now, unlike me, all four of my opponents have been in Washington for a combined 117 years. Biden has sexually groped seven women, and Kamala Harris has opposed investigating police shootings of black Americans. I will secure America's future. This isn't about winning an election. It's about winning an error. So come election day, remember, pledge the Buttigieg.
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Josh Rothman
Townsend Harris's Mayor Pete just goes right for the jugular. He's. He's. He's transgressive, and in the same way that Trump is, and it just electrifies the students. So one of the best things about the Townsend Harris simulation is, you know, there's media, so there's not just the candidates. There's, you know, talk radio, there's TV shows, and everyone goes on these shows to defend themselves and to go after each other. Joe Biden, we get to hear about your kickoff rally experience. How do you. How do you feel about it? How'd it go?
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Joe Biden (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Well, for starters, I think that Mr. Buttigieg's attacks on me were not appropriate for such an event. And I would like to say that those sexual allegations are not true, because it is true that after many of my speeches, I have to hug and kiss many people. But it was never my intention to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and I apologize if I have done so.
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Josh Rothman
You know, another great aspect of the simulation is the advertising. And so every campaign can place ads on the campus TV station or the campus radio station. And over the years, the political ads at Townsend Harris have developed their own distinctive style.
- [26:44]
Joe Biden (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Stopping climate change. Rest in peace. I'm your superior, Trump. You don't fit the president's criteria. Tnn taking pictures. Cause of mahysteria. After I'm done, Trump, you're gonna start tearing up. Imma start killing. This how you shoot but miss? You're attracted to your daughter, but you got a wife. Trump did nothing. He a dummy. Not too Bright grab him by the pussy I'm sure that ain't right Richard Donald was in the office Buggin pose to his guts Hope Biden don't cut him Presidential thoughts brought to me with no advisory When I'm done with you, you'll be drowning in misery we need free for your college real bad he was drowning in his tears with anxiety. You know my bar's full of clarity. I'll send Petey at your dome if you want a key. Testing me.
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Josh Rothman
So, you know, one of the things that happened this year is the campaign became sort of a rap battle. And, you know, Mayor Pete had to respond in this rap battle to Joe.
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Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
They say, yo, Pete, where you been at? I'm just winning with these. I've been crushing at the polls. That's why G, yo P on me I've been through with speaking for y' all Pass me trum See? But no Biden's making tik toks and not taking the lead. We need changing, changing, changing Gotta check me a vote. I got LGBT rights and I'm illegalized dope America's going broken. I ain't gonna sit back while creepy Joe looks at little girls like they sell him snacks. But I'm just Pete Bo buded judge trying to be your pres. I'm not like other dams just some airheads.
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Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Sponsored by AFL cio, you know.
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Josh Rothman
So there's so many ads. And it's not just candidates. There's also ads from special interest groups. One of my favorites this year was from students who were playing the role of the American Family Association.
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Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
American Family Association. Spreading the good Lord throughout our whole nation. Conservative standards is what we will follow. Media integrity, that is our motto. Pro life because we don't want to kill babies. Climate changes vacant science is crazy. Protecting our children's defending our borders. We know what's right and we'll put things in order.
- [28:53]
Jamie Baranoff
Welcome to the 2019 candidates debate.
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Joe Biden (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Okay, so first, we're going to welcome our Republican candidates. First one up, where's Trump right now?
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Josh Rothman
It was totally amazing. Trump played by Togai. He didn't just walk onto the stage. He came on riding a hoverboard, and he just glided right into the center of the stage, and he stretched out his arms and he spun around and around, and the crowd went nuts. So, you know, and it was really interesting to see just, you know, what parts of the real life. Trump's sort of tactical playbook Togai decided to pick up and use for himself at Townsend Harris.
- [29:44]
Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Look, the media does not want me to win. You know how? I know why? Because my mic is defunct and I've had to borrow it. They do not want me to win. So I will tell you the truth firsthand. I care about the American people. I care about American jobs. I put you guys first. I don't think. I think we should make sure that all Americans can sleep at night and all Americans rights are protected. Their First Amendment rights, all of their amendment rights. And we can't do that if we have sneaky politicians trying to take over our government. I put you guys first. And that's how American politics should work. All right. Keep America great, everybody.
- [30:16]
Josh Rothman
He didn't really want to show the scary, aggressive, offensive side of Trump, but Trumpism in general seemed to infect the whole election simulation for the first time. And the Democratic candidates treated each other with a level of aggression I hadn't seen before. They really became provocateurs, determined to create spectacle.
- [30:37]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Well, I'd like to ask Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren, these people come from an era of old politics. How will you better prepare America to a future with all of us? Us as millennials? You guys aren't in touch with the American people and millennials like I am. How will you better prepare the American people for this transition to the new future?
- [30:55]
Joe Biden (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So you say that I'm not in touch with millennials, but as a mayor, you did nothing for your city, and you also fired your only black pd, which shows you are racist. And if you're a millennial, why do you only appeal to the rich white man instead of the minorities? What have you done for the minorities? First of all, for civil liberties, I've done way more than you have. I've created the Violence Against Women act, and I've done way more for this.
- [31:25]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Country than you have.
- [31:25]
Josh Rothman
After the debate, I wanted to catch up with Justin, who's playing Pete Buttigieg. How do you think it went?
- [31:32]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I feel like I had, like, pretty good support going for me from the underclassmen. I think that what I need to do next is to take the next step forward is to be especially more critical of Joe Biden and present myself more of, like, present the Democrats mostly as a united front against Donald Trump. The trouble there is that a lot of the underclassmen like them. So we have to.
- [31:52]
Josh Rothman
They, like, push.
- [31:53]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Yeah, we have to push against them to the. But push against him, but not to the point where we lose all his voter base to us.
- [31:59]
Nathaniel Rakic
Oh, I see.
- [31:59]
Josh Rothman
You have to appeal to the Trump voters on some level.
- [32:02]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So, like, the ones that don't really want to vote for him, but don't want to vote for any Democrats. That's what we're trying to do. We looked at, like, the recent polls. We're up against Biden by probably around 20%. But we need to keep this momentum going. And at the moment, I don't think that I'm utilizing that momentum enough.
- [32:18]
Josh Rothman
How do you compete with just the sheer celebrity fun of Trump? Like, just by being on stage, people get excited about him.
- [32:26]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
I think the easy thing about playing Trump is that you don't really have. It's not really about your policies. It's more about your personality. And I think that the kid playing him is doing an amazing job. It's impossible to attack him on his policies in this election simulation because he's running all on his character, his charisma.
- [32:41]
Josh Rothman
Okay, awesome. We've been here a couple other years, and this year, I'm surprised to say this, but it seems more cheerful than it has in the past. I remember the Trump Hillary year. I thought things were. There was more tension, and it seemed kind of scarier. And it makes me wonder whether Trump just seems more normal now to kids who have grown up with this.
- [33:03]
Jamie Baranoff
It could be that you're right. We're three years into the Trump presidency, and it's not so shocking as it was back then. I think it's also the personalities. I remember the student who played Trump that year, and he didn't have, you know, I hate to say he didn't have the same kind of charisma as this Trump does. You know, he was a little bit of a darker personality.
- [33:27]
Josh Rothman
So these students, they're seniors, and they've watched previous election simulations. They've seen two previous Trumps, and neither of those Trumps have won. So Togai's Trump is to some extent, a response to what's come before. And that's something that Justin, who's the student who's playing Pete Buttigieg, has been thinking about a lot.
- [33:45]
Pete Buttigieg (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So I was here during the first. The actual general presidential election, not the primaries. So I think it's kind of like we see his name so much in the headlines that it kind of numbs us to what he's actually doing. He kind of shoots shifted the norm for us. And in this school especially, like, there. There was some stuff that Donald Trump was saying that if you heard from any other candidate, it would frankly be disgusting. Like, he was making jokes about. I'm not criticizing how to. Guy was playing. He was making jokes about, like, him and Ivanka and stuff like that. And I think that because we've seen what's actually going on in Washington because it's kind of been like a reality show to us, this isn't really surprising and this has been like, this isn't new. That's why I think the student body is so accepting of Donald Trump and willing to overlook some of his real life policies in favor of student playing him.
- [34:34]
Jamie Baranoff
Good afternoon, Townsend Harris. This is Ms. Baranoff with the election simulation results. The Democratic winner is Pete Buttigieg and the Republican winner is Donald Trump. Congratulations to everybody.
- [34:51]
Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Check that out. So I mean like I said when I was coming into this, I knew there were three Trumps, I mean two Trumps before me, I was the third Trump coming into this. And I said when it comes down to it, I want to be the first Trump to win. At Townsend Harris High School, like I told you back in freshman year we had conversations. Everyone was so riled up against his him being put into office and now Towns Harris put him into office by their own accord. So I think I did the impossible.
- [35:20]
Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
So he's back in the polls. His opponents are very far behind, far, far behind. Looks like the race is won.
- [35:29]
Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
He'll become president one more time. One more time.
- [35:36]
David Remnick
Josh Rothman is an editor at the New Yorker. Togai, who played Trump in the Townsend Harris High School elected simulation is a graduating senior and he's heading to college in the fall.
- [35:46]
Donald Trump (Townsend Harris Simulation)
Sansa Harris, this is for you. Let's go. I got diamonds I'm in my priming these books I'm signing. Get it baby go and vote. Cause you know numero uno is living in the White House and I won't move bro twee staying in this race, I'm in the limelight. Hear my speech. Cause now I'm planning out my timeline every single day in the whole night. My policy is like me, alright, look at me, look at you. Take this race. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm a winner baby. What else is new? And now I'm bow to Trump.
- [36:13]
Keith Ellison
You bring it.
- [36:19]
David Remnick
In the early 70s, Pam Grier played leading roles in the genre known as blaxploitation. With films including Foxy Brown. She was really one of the first women to become an action star. Greer is such an icon that she appears in a Call of Duty. The New Yorker's Michael Shulman caught up with Pam Grier recently on the set of the sitcom Bless this Mess.
- [36:43]
Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
When a woman takes out her earrings and her shoes, she's gonna whoop your behind. Okay? So that's in my movies. Okay. And in culture. Certain cultures understand that. And other cultures would think it's black exploitation.
- [36:57]
Nathaniel Rakic
It's exploitation.
- [36:59]
Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
We don't fight. We're conservative black people. We don't do that. The hell you don't.
- [37:05]
Nathaniel Rakic
No one fights for us.
- [37:06]
Elizabeth Warren (Townsend Harris Simulation)
She has to fight for herself.
- [37:10]
David Remnick
Pam Grier joins us next week on the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick and that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening.
- [37:27]
Narrator/Announcer
The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby Calla Leah, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester Gofen, Mputubwele, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses and Steven Valentino, with help from Alison McAdam, Morgan Flannery, Meng Fei Chen and Emily Man. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Turina Endowment Fund.